Conversations with Randy David Episode 7 - Ambeth Ocampo, Part 1

[MUSIC PLAYING] Some people think that I degrade the result, for example, by focusing on things like he had a bad bite, he had a bad breath. My dentist used to say he based on the result, the photograph of Rysal's skull, that Rysal needed braces. So when I wrote about it, brought the house down. But the thing there is, it's not meant to-- to pass him the pose of a problem for him with regard to him and your women exactly. But it also tells us that if Rysal can be a hero, then you can be a hero yourself. The standard way we are taught is that Rysal was born, a genius, et cetera. So a student's reaction is, that's Rysal, I'm not. So I can remain as dumb as I am. But if we know that we're the same, we're both-- you will rule both have bad breath or a bad back. Then it inspires us to be like them. [MUSIC PLAYING] Conversations with Randy David explores the various aspects of culture, politics, religion, and everything else that makes us Filipino. Listen in on the conversation with today's guests, public historian Ambeck Ocampo. [MUSIC PLAYING] Thank you so much, Ambeck, for agreeing to be our guest in today's podcast. Ambeck Ocampo is probably the most famous Filipino living historian, as far as young Filipinos are concerned today. Ambeck was chairman of the National Historical Commission of the Philippines, and, concurrently, chairman of the NCCA, or National Commission for Culture and the Arts. And he was at the same time, also associate professor of history at Teneo de Manila, where he still teaches. Ambeck is a very well-known author of history books. They're easy to read. He's also a well-known lecturer at Ayala Museum. He is a crowd-drawer, as far as Philippine history is concerned, which is not an easy thing to do. Ambeck, did you always think that you were going to be a historian? I'd like to think that maybe I became a historian, because I did not like the way that I was taught. The turning point actually came way after college. I had met writers like Emilio Guilar Cruz and Chodoro Aguensilio, who showed me that history was basically a story, and a story that should be engaging. And I used to wonder why history was so badly taught. And I guess it was because we wanted history not to tell an engaging story, but to teach us lessons that are not also as interesting as they may be. So it don't mean that history should engage, and it is the engagement that you need first in order to teach. So later on, when I started teaching, this became the way in which I write and the way in which I teach, that you use a story to teach. You use humor to teach. When you make people laugh, their defenses are down, and you can almost do anything that you want. Where were you educated? Well, I went to the attenayo, got bored there. So I went to UP, and I also got bored on there. My degree came from La Sal. And so I went to all three. Actually, the funny part was when Aguensilio, I met him the last six months of his life. I only met him at book launching. We were seated together. I didn't know who he was, but we chatted the whole afternoon. And when he stood up and left, I had forgotten to ask who he was. So I asked all the way to my literature teachers. And then she said, that's your daughter Aguensilio, and my first reaction was Kala Kupatainayo. And most people think historians are either old or they're dead. And so there he was. And so he says, why don't you come and visit me at home? This is my phone number. Tell them when they answered that I told you to call, because they screen my colors. So I went. And I think that became my real history lessons. I would literally sit at his feet. We would start at three o'clock in the afternoon and finish at 10 when the wife would come in and signal me to go home. But it was not just that he was talking all the time, but sometimes he would give assignments like, can you read Florentet Laura before we meet next? And of course, I would not read it, because I read it in high school. And as soon as I get there, he'll ask obscure questions like, I know Paralumans. And then he would explain that Paralumans is a butterfly. Of Paralumans is also the rosette in a map. So it meant that I really had to read what he tells me to read. So that was my real education. I learned from him that history was not just a story, but you needed research and rigor. [MUSIC] Most people who were formally trained in the discipline with their high degrees on history would think that history is about the large forces that shape society, the formation of the nation. If you look at the history books that Ambeto Campo has written, resolve without the overcoat, again all those breakfasts, bonifacios, bolo, and so on and so forth. Until I ran out of heroes to name my books. The focus seems to be on the everyday life of these people. What kind of items did the mother of Osir Isal send to him when he was a student in Europe? Those are very, very interesting tidbits. But to some people, that's not really history. It's, you may succeed in personalizing aspects of the lives of these heroes. But people think, is that worth knowing as an aspect of our past? >> Well, it's the proverbial forest versus the trees. So the academic historians give you the forest, then I can give you the trees like, yes, we had the Philippine revolution, but nobody tells us how it was fought. What weapons did they use? What kind of a wound will a Mauser produce compared to a crag? It may be trivial to some, but these are the things that make history move. So some people think I trivialize because they judge me on the 600 words you write for the inquire, and with 600 words, you cannot do a full narrative. So if people want to read academic things I've written, which they never comment about, I have a very boring Rizal Bibiography, which only scholars read, or my M.A. thesis, which was the third novel of Rizal, that Ui Maha Misa, which we found in the vault of the National Library. >> What's wrong with writing a column? I'm also an inquire columnist like yourself. >> Most academics don't want to write for popular media. They think it chippens them, chippens the profession. And I'd like to think that's where they miss the boat. Would you regard yourself as a public historian? >> Well, that's how some people have labeled me. It's a history that talks to not academics, but talks to ordinary people. I'd like to make people aware of their past as a way for them to understand the present and also the uncertain future. Some people think that I degrade Rizal, for example, by focusing on things like he had a bad bite, he had a bad breath. My dentist used to say he based on the photograph of Rizal's skull, that Rizal needed braces. I showed it to two other dentists, and they said based on the skull, we can tell you now that he needed braces, and that he probably had Hallitosis. But the thing there is, it's not meant to put him down. >> That's the same to pose a problem for him with regard to women, women, exactly. But it also tells us that if Rizal can be a hero, then you can be a hero yourself. I'd like to think that by making our historical personages human, you show that it is in their humanity that they became great. The standard we were taught is that Rizal was born, a genius, et cetera. So your students' action is that Rizal, I'm not. But if we know that we're the same, we're both, you will grow, both have bad breath or a bad back, then it inspires us to be like them. >> Is that the reason why you once said that perhaps the greatest misfortune of Rizal was that he was declared a national hero? >> Because he's national hero, for example, when you read the novels, you're supposed to look for emergence of nation. When you should actually just enjoy them as novels. And later see how these things pan out. I don't hide the fact that I passed my Rizal course by reading the comic book version of the novels. And I only read the novels when I had to teach it. My first teaching job was in Delasal University. And I think they gave this idiot of a lecturer, the 7 AM class, which nobody wanted. >> And how many students did you have? >> It was about 30 students and they were computer science. I was only reading the knowledge five, six chapters ahead of them. And during one lecture, one of the bright students raised his hand and said, you know, in chapter 23, I have this problem, and I had only read the chapter 20. And so I felt a cold sweat that said that's a very nice question. But it's not relevant to our lesson today. So can I answer that at our next meeting? And so before the next meeting, because my life depended on it, I had to read the novels in two days. And when I was forced to read it, cover to cover, that's when I appreciated it. I said, why these are such wonderful, funny novels. And the thing there is in high school, you are made to read edited, expirigated versions. >> That's true. >> So when they give us a watered down, silly version of the Noli and the Philly, when the student goes to college, he or she presumes that they had read it before. And when they take it up in my class, for example, I always zero in on the funny sexual parts, which are not in the novels, no? I remember when I was first teaching in PI100 in UP. I was called to the president of UP, who was then Pepe Abueva. So I sat down and he said, you know, I have received some complaints about the way in which you teach. And I heard that you asked some very strange questions. I said, yes, what did they report to you? >> I heard that you asked the students questions like, which is older, black or white? What's the point? And I said, I just want them to think outside of the box. And so we chatted, so we talked about the Noli and Philly. And at the end of that brief interview, he says, I know what you're going through. So just teach the way you want to teach. And I will just receive all the complaints that will be heard against you. So one of the things that was told was that in the Noli, for example, there is a scene in the picnic. What is not normally in the textbooks is the part where the boys and the girls want to sit together in one bunker. So it's supposed to be sex-segregated. So all the women are seated. And when the boys wanted to join them, they're all made unscathed. And no, no, you sit in the other side. And when they were pushed into the water, Albino, the ex-seminarian said, be careful. There are four holes in the boat. And he's signaled with his finger and motion there this big. And he says, you need the men to plug the hole. And so I said, what on earth is he talking about? And so of course, the people who complained told the president of UP, you know Amveto Campo is misreading the Noli metanghere. And what is he teaching the students? What I said, it is there. And we cannot imagine Risa laughing. And the funny part was when I read the original Spanish, it did not just say there are four holes in the boat. And you need the men to plug the holes and it made the motion. But there was a throwaway line. And there were four other women who had holes they didn't have to worry about. These are the old days. So when I saw that, oh my, why did they remove this from the Noli? I see, well, I say English. Well, I say English, didn't you know? So then I knew that Risa was making a funny point. And that we had actually censored him. So we killed his humor. And one of Risa's greatest weapons was that very sharp, painful sense of humor. And you think that's worth knowing? I think it is worth knowing because it's funny and sexual. But it makes them realize that there is more to this novel than we think. And by throwing two or three examples like that, they read closer. Sometimes they see things that I didn't see. Well, if you go to the UP Department of Education, their textbook example on improper test construction is ambitocampus exam questions. But you mean notorious? Notorious. I asked a question once. What is the significance of the dog in results execution? essay question, final exam. The attendee students are very bolero. So they're things like, oh, the dog is the symbol of our colonization to Spain after we saw it shot the dog runs around and it is free, et cetera. And of course, the whole class flanks. And so I was called to the office. You cannot flunk more than 20% of your students. If this happens, that means the problem is we do not take the students. So the committee asked, what is the significance of the dog? I said, what do you think? Then they said, you're the one being asked, so please answer. So I said, there's no significance. And then they said, there's no significance. Yes, they should have written W-A-L-A-W-L-A or N-O-N-E. And they said, one word, yes, one word. But it was an essay question. Yes, it's an essay question. Answerable in one word, yes, it is. Then they said, what you're confusing the students. But he said that what the test is all about. So they let me go. But-- and I'm usually abroad on a semester that I was gone. The department was forced to take a seminar in proper test construction. And I used to tell them things like I would give a 100 number final exam through or false. And then it's easy to check. Everything is true. And of course, they will say, it cannot be all true. I said, the whole point here is, in my class, at least, we will go outside of the box. And you go back to a normal teacher after me. But it forces you to think beyond the test, to think that there are many other ways to answer. And I think when we teach, the only thing I think I leave my students, they'll forget all the history. But all I give them is a sense of how I do my work. It is curiosity about my research area, curiosity about life. And I think that's what will help them the rest of their lives, not how many people were alive during the Philippine Revolution or how much was GDP in 1899. History is about life. History is about human nature. And if you forget that, then we have forgotten what history is all about. [MUSIC PLAYING] But we are, I think, in 2021. We will be marking the 500 years of the arrival of the Spaniards, not to the Philippines and the religion they brought to our shores, not Christianity. Some people object to the whole idea of celebrating an event that led to our colonization and our adoption of a religion that is supposed to be alien to our sensibility. Do you think that if 500 years celebration of the arrival of Christianity in the Philippines is worth celebrating? It's one of the things that I've been thinking about a long time, that if we do our textbooks, you will actually see that it talks about 1521 and about Magellan circumnavigating the world and Magellan discovering the Philippines. And it reminded me that in the 1970s, the late Gregorio Side already tried to change the way in which we understand herself by saying, when Magellan arrived, there were people there. So how can you discover a land where there were people? Aside the road, Magellan didn't discover the Philippines. Magellan rediscovered the Philippines. And of course, when I discussed this with Agoncilio, he's arrived, but he was very upset. So he says, don't read side days and idiot. Do you know what you are saying? When you say Magellan rediscovered the Philippines, I said, what? Then Agoncilio says, why did the Philippine islands go under the sea and hide and come up in 1521 for Magellan to rediscover itself? I won't say Magellan discovered the Philippines because that's the Western viewpoint. I won't say that he rediscovered the Philippines because that's the rabid Philippine viewpoint. I will simply say that Magellan arrived in the Philippines in 1521. And when you think about it, it's just one word. The event does not change. The characters does not change. The date will not change, but one word, one verb. From rediscovered, rediscovered, arrived. One word changes the whole way in which you understand the story and the whole way in which you relate to the story. So I think rather than fight it, I would like to think that it is a way for us to look beyond. Let me reorient our view, like I said. You know, a few weeks ago, I read in the paper, "Sibu celebrated its 400, whatever foundation." And I'd like to remind them and to use 15, 20, 21 to say, yes, it was the foundation of Spanish Sibu. It is not the foundation of Sibu. So one of the things they've asked me to prepare a lecture for 2021, I'm going to talk about the archaeological excavation of porcelain in Sibu and Bohol. Just to show you that the Chinese came and they wouldn't have traded with barbarians. What were they trading in? What does this say about Philippine society at the time? It pushes our understanding of that period. But why isn't there much history writing of the precolonial period? History per se is a history that is based on written record. And if we are to accept that our oldest record is the Laguna copper plate inscription, it's a plate that they found in 1989, supposedly, in Laguna. My beef there is that this copper plate on which we base our written history, it's not a poem, it's not part of an epic. It's a receipt, somebody paid Uttang and got a receipt. So you paid, got a receipt in metal, and that's why it survived a thousand years. The two texts in which we base our prehistory, one is the Laguna copper plate. And the second is the Kalatagan pot, which is a palayok with writing on the side, in Baibayan. Our main problem with those two artifacts is that they were not scientifically excavated. Like the Laguna copper plate, and this may be one of my biggest regrets, was shown to me when it was found. They were selling it to me, and I looked at it, I said, "This cannot be there so much in Indonesia." So they went to the National Museum, and now it is National Treasure of the Philippines. I still want to believe it. It's one of the things, no carols, how calls them, necessary fictions. Like the Kalatagan pot, for example, has not been deciphered for the law since 1961, when it was acquired by the National Museum. The late Guillermo Tolentino National Artist was captured. The guy who gave us oblation and the Bonifacio monument, he was an expert on the Baibayan. So he copied it out, and he says, "Let me bring it home and I'll study it." So he came back some weeks later with a very long thing. To paraphrase, it was a Philippine curse now. It's something like, "Kumabasa mohoma malasinka." Because we were so scared of the curse, it survived 1,000 years. And when I read it, even in cursing, I was in England, I took a course in ancient Egyptian mummification. And I studied ancient Egyptian curses. And I said, "They were so malevolent and creative." Like my favorite ancient Egyptian curse goes like this. "May all your teeth fall off but one, and may that one ache for all eternity." Did you say that? "Kumabasa mohoma malasinka anyway." So the museum asked, "Professor Tolentino, how did you decipher this?" "I did not decipher it either." So what I did was, and he was a noted spiritist. He was one of the founders of the Union spirit. So he had the sayings in his house, and they conjured the spirit of the person who made the path. And he says, "Itu insinabinan spirit." And because it's not academic, they put it in a drawer and forgot about it. So the Kalatagan path is really problematic, but I'd like to think if you are to be Filipino, Tolentino was like that. He's, when you look at the Bonifacio monument, for example, they say, it's the closest to Bonifacio's likeness. But unlike Resal who had photographs, Bonifacio has only one photograph, and my problem with Bonifacio's only photograph is that he's not wearing the white shirt and the red pants. He's wearing a coat and a tie. So our friends from Deleman who, like Bonifacio more than Resal claimed that this was taken during his wedding. They said this is the wedding. They wear his Mrs. Bonifacio. So they cannot explain it away. The heat of the masses is in a coat and a tie. Anyway, so with that one picture, how did Bonifacio, how did Tolentino get the likeness? He got the bone structure of his sister, the Spirit Jonah, and he had sayances in the house, conjured the spirit, and the spirits told him, this is what he looks like. So we got the closest likeness. So it's stories that make things very, very interesting. Tolentino published a very obscure book called "Seriesal" in 1949. And if you open to the back, after the war, they had the sayances in his house, and they had invited his surviving sister, Trinidad. They conjured Resal's spirit and left Resal Tolentino's sister. So the transcription is there. But the sister's just crying all the time, talking to her brother, instead of asking, questions he will, only Resal will answer, like what's the name of our pet dog, Sanem Peclap to Dieton. They were talking about nationhood, and I know it's one of those things, but it's a curiosity. It's nice to talk about. Conversations with Randy David would not have been possible without the help of Puma podcast, music composed by LM Kancho. You may reach us via email at [email protected]. You may also follow us on Facebook at conversations with Randy David, and on Twitter @profforandidavid. This is Katta David, hoping that you can listen to part two of this interview.