Conversations from the Southwestern Ontario First Nations & Inuit Cultural Practitioner Gathering

(upbeat music) - Welcome back to Shkikend with Boddhan, indigenous medicine stories. I'm your host, Daral Manitwabi. Today's episode features attendees of the Cultural Practitioners Gathering, held in August 2025 at Amjanang First Nation, also known as Sarnia First Nation. Disgathering offered a space for healers, helpers, and clinicians to share, reflect, and collaborate in traditional healing. I took part in the gathering and I spoke with Liz Akawenzi from Neyashengaming, Kiproker First Nation, Dr. Nicole Redvers from Western University, Pam Plain from Amjanang, Joanne Jackson from Kettle and Stony Point First Nation, Helena Jacobs and Tony Murphy from Bukwajganang, Wal-Paul Island First Nation, and Doug George from Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. This is what they have to say about the gathering and I begin with Liz Akawenzi. (upbeat music) Neyashengaming, don't you buy. I'm originally from Neyashengaming, Kiproker, to Bob the Neyash, and I don't live up there, I live outside of London, and I've been in help with the people for over 40 years, and I've been working in different places, like health centers, hospitals, educational institutions, native communities, non-native agencies, and doing cultural awareness and cultural understanding. But also doing healing work in all these different places and to empower our relatives so that they can be reconnected to their heart, their mind, their body, and your spirit because of the trauma and because of the colonial oppression that has happened to our relatives from one generation to another. They help people to embrace, to pick up who they are and so that they can see, they can feel, they can understand how important they are to creation and to all of creation. Helping them to understand that we have something so beautiful, our teachings, our cultural ways of being, our medicines, our dances, our songs, our all about what's going to keep us well, that's going to help the next generation, and I believe it's about collective knowledge, and I'm just a small dot in that medicine wheel with a whole bunch of other helpers and medicine people and healers and ceremonial people, it's going to take all of us to be able to continue to shift and to move our relatives, but at the same time, trying to plant those seeds with those colonial thinkers out there and helping them to get out of their head and maybe helping them to get in touch with their heart so they can truly understand our stories and how important they're just not stories or life experiences and that we need to continue to teach them to respect who we are but we need to respect who we are first. Know who you are, go find out what your spirit name is, go to ceremonies, go sit with those old ones, that's what's going to help us 'cause that's where I started over 40 years ago just sitting with the old ones and just listening to everything they had to say and I just knew back then it felt good, it felt so nice being around those old ones and it was so nice watching them, didn't fully understand what they were doing but when they used those medicines and they would sing their songs, you could feel it and I didn't know back then that too was a big medicine for me and it helped me to walk through the world and go learn and to me that's excitement of life is just learning, always, always. - We are here at a gathering of healers, helpers and knowledge-olders in Amjunang so you're with people that do the same kind of work with you and can you share what that's been like for you over the past two days, being with those who do the same work and sharing ideas? - Well, being with people, I've worked with many people that were sitting in that room and either go to their house centers or go to their communities and at one point, you know, the healers, the ones that are in that room, we've all worked together at some point in time. We know each other's gifts and talents. It was just, it filled me up. It filled me up and it continued to plant that seed of hope but it also, just listening to everybody, it just reaffirms what it is that I see and believe and understand, you know, we need to continue to gather, we need to bring our people together. We need to share what it is that we know and the collective knowledge in that room was powerful and very empowering for the ones that are, just learning the ones that are working in house centers or hospitals or working in community. It is empowering for all of us. The energy and the connection that we have as relatives is absolutely beautiful. The songs that were sung, the men that are sitting around that drum, it just cleared the air, just cleared the space and touched my spirit and continued to help me to remember about who I am as Nisitongquia. You know, that understanding woman, that's the name that my mom and dad gave me. My own idea name is Deila Dutz, which means she who reasons and she who sees both signs. Both those names truly describe who I am as I walk through the world. And so when I hear those songs that just reminds me about how those two names come together and how it connects me into my heart, mind, body, and spirit. And just listening to the other healers that are there and our medical doctors who are our first nations, we need to continue to support them. We end up those two days I see and feel that we truly do support one another, no matter what part of that medicine will, that we work in, we support each other, we see each other, we hear each other, we understand each other, that's the empowerment to continue to stand the next generation, something to be able to take our place someday. And to me, that's exciting. - For those who could not be here today, what is the take-home message that you'd like to share with them? - Is that you need to pick up your bundles, go sit with those old ones, and listen to the teachings, the teachings is so empowering and so beautiful, and put it into your life, gain the awareness of that, gain the understanding and start implementing it. And then when you have that knowledge start living it, and then when you have that wisdom, you start sharing it with other people no matter how big or how small that is, it's all important, it's all a part of that medicine will, but continue to go learn, seek out those people, seek wherever territory you're in or even if you're visiting in a territory, ask, who are the medicine people in your territory, who are your healers, who are your cultural educators, are knowledge keepers and go sit with them. That's the greatest gift you can give to yourself, to your children, to your community, to your nation, because we all do things a little bit different with the intent is about the love for our people. - Is there any final thoughts you'd like to share with the listeners that you think is important for them to know? - I think we need to have more of these gatherings, and it needs to be continuous, and we need to bring community people in, we need to bring those young people in, and we had one young person in this for these two days, and that little person is a sun dancer, that little person helps that sun dance, and he's just only eight years old, and he is going to grow up, and he's gonna have this in every ounce of his being, as he walks through the world, and I'm excited to love this little one, and to support him and to guide him, and he just feeds the spirit of the people. - We wish this for sharing your wisdom, with the listeners today. - Oh, me, let's y'all go. - Hello, my name is Nicole Redbergs, I'm a member of the Dittin' Quay First Nation. I've been treated to eat territory, otherwise known as Fort Resolution in the Northwest Territories, where I was born and raised, and happy to be here. - Mm-hmm, and what kind of work do you do? - Yeah, so right now, I work in the university. I don't consider myself a researcher. I always try to think of the best name, res scholar, blue collar scholar, and different kinds of roles, but ultimately, I think most of my work is rooted within the community, focusing on indigenous health, particularly in the context recently of climate change, and planetary health. And he used to be an archipathic doctor, but I haven't seen patients now for about three years, although still think about going back sometimes. - Mm-hmm, we are here at a gathering of healers, helpers, and knowledge holders in Umjanaung. What are your thoughts on the importance of traditional healing in the indigenous community based on, all of your collective work, and what you've witnessed here over the last two days? - Yeah, this gathering and other gatherings like this are incredibly important, and traditional medicine is our life. It's our way of being, it's walking in the world, it's breathing, it's hugging, it's eating, it's all of these components, and bringing in a medicine worldview to our daily existence is something that colonialism really disrupted as part of our history. So gatherings like this are really an important effort and needed reclamation of space to be able to bring these conversations back, but more importantly, move to action, because I think we heard it today that there's lots of conversations happening, but really we need action and the time is now. - Mm-hmm, what's the take-home message that you got from this gathering of over the last two days? What are you gonna take home with you? - Yeah, well, many things I'm gonna take home, but I think probably one of the most profound things in some way, it's just the reestablishment, the reassurance, I think of how many indigenous communities and many places, including in my home region, are thinking the same things, concerned about the same things, wanna make change on many of the same things, so although we have a lot of diversity amongst our nations, not only here in Canada, but elsewhere, there's a resonance, I think, and an interconnectedness with our way of thinking that makes the opportunity for change that much more powerful and to have that noted in this region where I now currently reside is really quite meaningful for me, and I have a lot of hope that things are gonna change as a result of this conversation over the last two days, and I think people that are empowered to make that change, so I'm taking that sense of hope, going home. - Mm-hmm, is there anything else you'd like to say any final thoughts you think it's important for listeners to know? - Yeah, I think the one thing is, is that there's so many passionate people in our communities that are thinking about these things, wanna make change, and a lot of people are doing really good work in many different places, but sometimes they're not talking to each other across community lines, across regions, and I think the more that we can connect together across our own cultures, whether or not it is First Nations, Métis, or Inuit, or otherwise, and burn from other places, so that we can gain inspiration, but also hopefully find some shortcuts with regards to moving this work forward. I think it'll be a lot more efficient for all of us, 'cause we have a lot of good people that do a lot of things, and the more that we can help those cultural providers and practitioners out and all become helpers in some way, the more likely I think we're gonna get movement forward on a faster pace, so that it's not only our children benefiting, but it's the current generations and all the generations after that that will benefit from discussions like these. - Dr. Redvers, thank you for sharing your perspective in wisdom with us today. - Merci, too. (upbeat music) - Josh, counselor, traditional healer, and I do healing work within the community and coordinate programs for healing and cultural identity. - Mm-hmm, so we're here in your community, and we're here at a gathering of healers, helpers, and knowledge holders. What has it been like for you to be amongst those who do the same kind of work that you do? - It's been very empowering and insightful to hear, and to see the work that's happening out there across Ontario, and it gives me hope that the doors and programming and access to traditional healing within professional settings, such as hospitals, is going to be more widespread throughout the province. - Mm-hmm, I've seen you at other gatherings, and I know that you're part of that important work and the important work you've just described. In all of that, you've done what have you seen the reaction from community members about how important traditional healing is, what does it do for community members for those who have not witnessed that before? - Well, because I've worked in different capacities within the hospitals, and providing traditional healing services to community members, and from the London area, and I recently moved back to my home community, and I'm so servicing who water health in Sarnia, and them starting this new indigenous team has been very helpful for those ones who are searching and wanting to know more about traditional healing and having access to that. So because I work with the health center, I often get called when we have emergencies and people within ICU and families requesting traditional healing services. So I often get called to go insist the family, especially towards when there's critical injuries and end of life. So I do a lot of that kind of work. And so people are hungry for that. They want to have direct contact and access to somebody that can go, but unfortunately not all the time I'm available, and so there's not very many people in the community that provide that. So sometimes where scrambling or they're stuck and they don't have anyone to bring in. - For those who could not be here today, what's the take-home message that you'd like to share with them? - I just like them to be aware that they have a right to these services, and that there are workers within the hospital, a lot of blue water health, and not to be afraid to ask. Because so many times people are afraid to ask or to inquire about traditional healing services because they don't think that they have access or that it's a priority for some of our hospitals, but they don't know unless they ask. - Is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners that you think is important for them to know? - I just think for me doing this work that a lot of people are just reclaiming their identity and their culture, and I want them to know that it's not their fault that they might not have grown up in that and not know that what it's about. But to start picking up where they're at and searching for that and asking those questions and sort of tending the programs and services that we have that will assist people in identifying who they are and they're right to initiate that odds of it. So initiate that odds of when there's our original ways and to help them to reconnect to their identity. - Migwetch Pam for sharing our wisdom and knowledge with us today in welcoming us to your community. - Migwetch. (upbeat music) - - My English name is Joanne Jackson. I'm from Catalan Stony Point First Nation, Eagle Plan, and my spirit name is Blue Fire Woman. I'm an Indigenous practitioner. So I work with various hospitals, house centers, bringing in traditional healing, ceremonies and medicines to our people within urban and non-urban native communities as well. - We're here in Amjunung and the gathering of healers, helpers, and knowledge holders. What has the experience been like for you being amongst others who do the same work as yourself? - I think it's been really good in the sense that there was combination of both, there was practitioners and then there was people who worked within those organizations. And so for me, I thought it was, I learned a lot because I guess I take it for granted that when I go and see clients and I give instruction to my helpers to follow through with medicines or a ceremony. And it also kind of falls under our mentorship. So the helpers start to learn the medicines and ceremonies. But finding out that there still is a big pushback that the medical staff is not wanting them to take our medicines or they're showing out our medicines, showing them right in the garbage. So we're still struggling with that. And I really didn't know that was that much of an issue because I'm only getting the perspective of meeting with the clients. I'm not having that experience that they're having when they have to deal with the hospital, the policies, the procedures. Or just simply the racism that is still there. So many of the non-indigenous staff don't realize that we have this right. Like culture is right, it's not a request. And so I think we're having to move past that, that we don't have to have permission. Our community members don't have to have permission if they want to use indigenous healing practices within that setting. - What's the take home message that you'd like to share with the listeners for those who couldn't be here today? - I think the take home is knowing that we have a right to quality care, knowing that we have the right to access traditional healing methods, whether that's ceremony, medicines, doctoring without discrimination, that quality care equates to a quality life. And that it's our right not a request to have indigenous healing methods. Do you have any final pause to share with the listeners on what you think it's important for them to know? - I think it's really important to know that to have a voice, they have rights. I think it's important to know to challenge the system, that medical system, if their needs are not being met. Make connections or reach out for someone to advocate, navigate that system with them that they're not alone, that they belong within any setting they want to be in, whether that's a hospital, health center, whether that's on the land, but they belong. And I think that's the message that right from birth, they were born to belong here, and to have a quality life while they're here. - Mm-hmm. - Miigwech Joanne for sharing our wisdom with us today. - No, miigwech. (upbeat music) - My name is Gleina Jacobs, and I'm from the Wapu Law and Territory, and I am a personal or traditional practitioner in the sense of I do counseling and incorporate culture practices into my counseling. - Luju, my name is Tony Murphy. I'm from Wapu Lawland First Nation. I'm a registered nurse. I also work within the community. Currently, I'm the president of the Southwest Homeland Community Care Network Association. We work along with Indigenous Services Canada, who guides us along, and we come together. It's a lot of the leaders of the healthcare leaders from each community. Currently, we have 40 of us in total now, and we come together, sit at the tables, find ways to support each other and to help each other. And that's one of the many things that I do along with being registered nurse. - So we're here at a gathering of healers, helpers, and knowledge holders in Amjana, and Gleina, I wonder what your thoughts are about being amongst others who do the same work as you and how has that been for you? - I felt very supportive, because sometimes when you do this kind of work, you feel like you're home, and then when you come to gathering, like this, it upless your spirit, my spirit, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and to embrace the work that I do for our community. And knowing that helping our community heal the wounds from the trauma, from residential school, 60 scoop, whatever, it's seeing those community members go away feeling whole, and that 'cause they're broken inside. And that is what I embrace seeing the healing and the wellness right there in the moments that I've been able to help them process their own wounds so they can spare their healing journey. - And from a systems level, when you look at that from your perspective, don't know how do you feel about the gathering? - The gathering today, for the past two days, has been very rewarding in the sense that we working within the institutions and the healthcare system, knowing that finally we are able to come to a space to be able to support each other, and all of our cultural activities and beliefs, because like Glenna said, some of us that carry gifts, we feel alone at times, and being a helper, and the sense of whether it's being a nurse, or being a helper to a traditional practitioner, which I have done as well, itself care for us. It's very healing for us as well, and it helps us just to continue doing the work and moving forward. - So what do you think the take-home message is for you that you've received from these two days of this gathering? The take-home message is that we are now sitting in a space where we are no longer going to be only asking. Now we are going to be using our voices in a sense telling the institutions what is needed within those spaces, rather than telling us what they wanna see. It's finding ways to work collaboratively together and to find a balance, because there can be one. But it's working with those open-minded people that sit in those higher positions and the decision makers. - And Glenna, what's your take-home message that you'll that you've taken from these two days? - The take-home message I have is to honor all those healers that are out there and honor myself, and to help our people to have a voice and empower them. This has been a very empowering two days of gathering that has uplifted me, spiritually, physically, mentally, and emotionally, and just to see everybody together and connecting with other first nations and practitioners and sharing a common goal of helping our people, and be colonizing them. - Is there any final thoughts you have to share with the listeners, Glenna? - I would say that no matter where you're at in life and you're going through something, there's always someone out there to help with the wounds and to hurt that you carry, and to be fine your wholeness by talking to the elders, rather to ceremony or through practitioners on counseling, whatever may be reached out. - And Connie, any final thoughts to share with the listeners on what this is all about, and do you think that's important for them to know? - For them to know that they're not alone, especially when they're in the institutions, that there are people out there, if they're not currently active in your area, that it's coming along, and one day, just like anything, it takes time to build. So we're working towards that, but to remember not to go. - Mm-hmm. - Miigwech, for you both, taking the time to share with us today. - Yim Yolk. (upbeat music) - So my name is Doug George, and I'm from the Chippewa's of Kettle and Stony Point First Nation. And I currently work at the Bluewater Health Hospital in Sarna, Ontario as the Indigenous Relations and Navigation Manager. - Mm-hmm. So we're here at a gathering of healers, helpers, and knowledge holders, and Umjunang. What are your thoughts on the importance of traditional healing in the Indigenous community? For myself, I grew up in, I was born, actually, in the early '60s, when social welfare policies changed across Canada. And where the Children's Aid Society had sweeping powers, then, to go across, and then through our First Nation's communities, the Shlabek communities, and start apprehending children in the '60s school. So I was at home in Kettle Point for the first, almost five years of my life. And so we didn't have such things back then, or at least I thought we didn't have such things as welfare or Ontario works is what they call it today. But people were more land-based oriented back then. And by land-based oriented, which means that there is, a lot of people went out and they worked all day on farms or some of the local industries. There's a basket making shop up in the local town there. And what they would do is sometimes the farmers would just throw away food kind of stuff that they would bring at home. And you know, like back in those days, everybody grew their own food and their own gardens. Everybody had a garden, because we used to raid everybody's gardens two quarter of a kids, right? He just went into people's gardens and just had a snack out of there. But they did a lot of preserving. They knew how to do a lot of preserving and different styles of cook. But in order to get more food in the house for large families, because our families were larger when I was born, it was, we had a lot of fish, deer meat. There was things that people won't eat in nowadays. But you know, like we had to eat them. You know, like there was muskrats or wasesh. We call them, there is even turtles, snapping turtles, that was food for us. You know, like all kinds of different things, though. So we would eat that. But what was remarkable at that time was that the predominant language at the time was the schnaw benwin. And in our particular region in Kettel and Stoney Point, it was Ojibwe Potawatini mixture. And so people just called it Ojibwe back then. But the elders, they were very fluent. And so when we went to people's houses, that's all they spoke. And we'd sit there and listen to them. And a lot of my fond memories were when I was at my grandmother's house. Now back that time, they weren't openly traditional outside the family. They were more closed and behind closed doors because anybody back then was persecuted within the community, especially by those who had strong Christian belief systems against you. Then you were dubbed a witch. And you were outcast, you know, like or shunned by people in the community. So a lot of people knew the ceremonies because the generations just before them were able to practice traditional healing and feasts and whatnot. So it just took a little while to really do a lot of damage to that whole process. So we seen ceremony. And like behind closed doors, the problem was, I didn't know other people were dying ceremony. I thought it was just something that was supposed to be hidden, you know, like behind closed doors. So for example, you know, just as an example, if we were visiting at my grandmother's house, who was born in 1899, she had very strict protocols about what we would do. If a thunderstorm came, none of us were allowed to play. We had to sit against them all. Away from the windows, she would cover up all the mirrors on the house. Back then, they had cast iron stoves to do other cooking and heating on the house. But she would walk over to the stove. She would have tobacco ready and she would be talking in the language and seeing prayers, you know, like offering the tobacco offerings and whatnot into that fire for the thunder beings. I thought this was just sort of a natural process that people would do. And many, many elders would come to my grandmother's house and come visit her while she was there. Then I would hear stories and watch, you know, like how the administrative traditional knowledge right around the kitchen table. And so everybody knew different things back then. And so I was scooped up but not adopted into a non-native family, but I was in multiple foster homes until from the age of five years of age about there. I was almost five because I didn't quite finish kindergarten at that time, but I was about five years. And then I returned back to the community when I was about 11, 12 years old. And for me, though, the knowledge and the exposure to the language that was already instilled in me from that first five years on a reserve. And I guess we were poor, but we didn't know we were poor until somebody else called us poor. Yeah. So it was a different type of poverty that they were talking about. I think back then if you didn't know it a hunt or fish, then you were poor kind of thing. And when people started getting more wealthier, then the social class system came in and, you know, like if you didn't have money, then you were poor. So those things shifted over. But I always remember those things. I had a stubborn mind set. And I remembered all these stories. And I remember the elders, I remember the older people, whereas many people have forgotten, you know, like different stories, those types of things. And so I've seen that, if I could back up for a second there, being in the foster system, I normally see people forget to their identity and forget who they are. For me, it was rather strength combat because of the early exposure to our culture. And so I already knew who I was back at that age. And although they were trying to inculterate me into, I think the last family I stayed with was a nice German and a nice family. I kind of refused to acknowledge and call the mum and dad. And I already knew where I was from, you know. And I would always remember those things. And so I've never, never, never did forget those. And so I always had that strong, strong desire to not only try to maintain the language, but also to also learn our plant medicines, our own ways of healing. And I went to ceremonies when people were afraid to go to ceremonies because something was pulling me, right? And I was also very interested in other people's ways of doing things, right? Because I identified very early in my life that there's something wrong here and on a spiritual level and that people shouldn't be tearing each other apart if they're actually spiritual. And then I seen all through the years through helping elders, the very importance of that and how identity and reclamation of traditional healing practices really helped people to heal on a very spiritual level, right? So that's kind of like what it means to me. So you've had a chance over the last two days to visit and to talk with others who do the same kind of work that you do, what has that experience been like for you? - It's, I like when we are able to gather in places like this and talk about this because normally we don't talk about traditional healing. And I think for some of us who recognize it or the, I would say traditional healing has been in a crisis for quite some time now. And so it takes a long time for somebody to trust you, to teach you, you know, like some of the indigenous knowledge that you need to learn in that regard. And so some people were so fearful of passing their indigenous knowledge to people because number one, they didn't know what purpose they were going to use it for because we know that from growing up with it, there's people who could use it for good intentions or people who could use it for bad intentions and solving it to non-indigenous people or teaching non-indigenous people some of those practice were considered not good intentions kind of thing, right? So and back then many of the healers would think that that would be kind of like taking the power away, right? From that, you know, just the much the same way they used to be afraid to get their pictures taken because there's a belief system that your spirit gets captured within those pictures, right? So I don't see that too much anymore but people are still trying to get their pictures taken, you know, like that way. But that was the basis of that fear with that. And so he being here and listening to people's stories in Southwest Ontario about how they're struggling to not only, I think a lot of people are really struggling to actually immerse themselves in culture and find those teachers who are open to be able to teach them indigenous knowledge including all of those ways and means of healing that we use for mental things because our grandma's always had the medicines that they would use for their daughters and their sons and their grandchildren. You know, like when they were in the mental health crisis, they knew exactly what to do. I used to watch this happen, you know, like and also the spiritual on a spiritual level and the emotional level and the physical level, they had that knowledge. And I think 'cause something has, there's some missing links here that we're talking about and it was really good to hear other people like talk about what we need to do in terms of building up the traditional healing. I gotta tell you, it wasn't that many years ago where I and many others felt like we were alone on this path, right? And that we used to go help people in ceremonies and I remember some friends trying to do ceremony, especially the women, they would say, where are all the men? You know, because there were more women. So it was the women who were taking the lead on actually restoring spirit and culture within not only themselves, their families and their communities, but also on a national level. The men were lagging behind on that. And so just trying for the men even to try to find their place back in the systems, which doesn't really honor indigenous culture but at the same time, I think we've been so inculturated where men hold a lot of power within our community systems that it means sharing power also, you know, like. And so from what I hear from some of the other our women and the communities is, they don't have more anymore time to wait. And so they're actually taking the power kind of thing, right? And they're teaching that their sons and their daughters to bring that forth and I see that today. We need to look at all the gatherings today, you know, like I see still mostly all women, but I'm starting now to see more men coming to the ceremonies and also seeing more men, you know, like participate and helping out with those ceremonies, like fire-keeping drumming, which we had today, and which creates an element of a spiritual power to what we're trying to do and it was really great. I like that. And so the difference here with this particular conference, compared to other ones I went to is that we also had an element where non-indigenous people were actually helping us and I talked to one of our council members on our, it's called the indigenous communities advisory council. And how she expressed it to me was indigenous people already know what they need in order to become healthy and well again and we can't really lead you there, but we notice what we notice is that some people lack the courage to take the lead and step up and do that because we get stuck in how do we do that because we're always challenging the system. And so for them, they don't want to tell us what to do. It was more of, okay, so we're gonna have to help lift them and to elevate, you know, like indigenous people into those particular positions. And so that's how we had some of the help that we do today. So those people were in more of an allyship role not telling us what we're going to do kind of thing right then. So their particular leaders were helping us as indigenous people to elevate us in terms of, in terms of defining what we want, you know, like within some of the funding, you know, like in access to the funding and what we see was needed and this is one of the things that we need to do is to bring people together to talk about some of the, on the mental problems that we're seeing here in southwest Ontario as particularly with traditional healing. Yeah, is there any final thoughts you have for the listeners? You think that's important for them to know? - Yeah, I think there's not a whole lot of time now. So I think what we have to do is we have to really work together and recreate and mend that circle again because we're now living in another world. I think we've, a lot of people might have realized that we're not living in that old world that I grew up in. We're living in a new world now. And we're living with people who think differently. So people are realizing that they live in two worlds. And so we have to make those particular adjustments. And I think as more and more of our knowledge keepers and traditional elders, paths and change worlds, we call it into the next life cycle where they had, we're left here and many of us are now in those positions where we would normally be expected to take on those leadership roles in traditional healing. And so we're standing there and we elbow, we collectively, we have lots of indigenous knowledge collectively amongst us. You know, like somewhere in the back of our minds, we're still afraid to take that action and to take those roles. And to be able to do that, we have to do what our ancestors did, I think, and come together as one. And you know, like one group of people and to be able to collectively help each other and show us knowledge. And I think some people had said today, I can't, if I can't help you, I know somebody who can, right? And to be able to do that and to start the process of decolonization. And I think that process starts with decolonizing the mind first, healing the body, healing the emotions and healing the spirit. And then from there, then that goes on to our families and our communities, our nations, and our approach back to wellness again, in whatever new world it is that's being created for us. Make which dog for sharing your wisdom with us today. We got you. Thank you for listening to this episode that featured attendees of the cultural practitioners gathering in Amjunam and South Western Ontario. Join us for the next episode of Indigenous Medicine Stories. Bye for now, from your host, Darryl Manitwabi.