Conversation with Wiem Jdidi: Your Product Doesn’t Need More Features. It Needs Better Decisions.

0:00 Intro We're going to find ourselves in rooms with people who are having 25 years of experience who are at the age of our dads or even grandpas. So it's okay to feel that you don't belong, but honestly, 0:21 Speaker 2 Hi everyone, welcome to Founders. Another episode with us today we have William. She is a UX strategy studio founder helping grow stage start-ups, making better product decisions through user research, behavioral design and fractional UX leadership. 0:37 Welcome. 0:38 Speaker 1 Thank you. How are you doing today? 0:40 Speaker 2 I'm good. How are you? I'm. 0:42 Speaker 1 Good. 0:43 Wiem’s background, creativity, and love for art Oh good. OK, so for people who don't know you yet, would you like to introduce yourself? 0:48 Speaker 1 I'm I'm we am I'm a female founder for five years and ongoing right now. I have like a deep love to art and life in general. So beyond everything related to my work as a creative entrepreneur, I'm falling in love and even like traditional disciplines in art, like dance, museums and all of that. 1:12 So it's just the awe of life. 1:14 Speaker 2 I love it and I can certainly see your creativity. I remember when I first saw you at London Tech Week, I was captivated by the way that you're presenting. And just a back story for our listeners. So we met at London Tech Week and you were one of the very few women founder that I saw fishing on the stage and it was genuinely impressive. 1:33 Thank. 1:33 Speaker 1 You I really appreciate your support. Also like I remember a few calls from London Tech week as well, like really appreciate all your supports over there because even though you are saying I look like super confident and I'm really likewise spoken and all of that, but different side, I was like super nervous. 1:49 But I think that's the stage here in a way that would never goes on. 1:53 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, but you did so well we can't tell that you were nervous. Amazing. 1:59 From development to discovering UX OK, Anyways, so can you tell us a little bit about your background before founding your company? 2:05 Speaker 1 Well, I started my background in a little bit in another industry and then when I was finalizing my bachelor degree, which is my second degree in development. So I was supposed to be another developer. 2:20 I discovered user experience design and I just fall in love with the discipline. So I start like studying that as well in parallel. And with the internships I'm really grateful for like the managers that I worked with in earlier in my career because there I really, I really got fond and understood like the whole processes and how it actually work. 2:41 So so yeah, I took like a few internships and then I start like my career like with like few jobs. Things moved on. I found myself already four years in to like the industry and here we are after that like I founded Milliora. 2:55 Speaker 2 Congratulations on founding Milliora. OK, so tell us about how did you first get into UX? You said that that was really interesting to you. What made you fall in love with UX? 3:05 Speaker 1 Since my childhood, I have been like always interesting in understanding how things work or like why we are doing certain decisions. And I have been like a reader and you know, even like as readers though we are not reading a lot of non fiction, but we are always deep involved into like psychology, humanity and all of that. 3:26 And then the way I discovered UX design, it was like through explaining cognitive behaviour and like everything related to our process of thinking, our mindset, building the mental models. And that gave me like the oh, and I was like, yeah, that's the part of technology that I want to work with. 3:45 I don't want just to be executing, even though developers are always into like problem solving, especially like 12 years ago, like, you know, it was like pure coding, a lot of execution. And, and even though I was like excelling into my studies, I was not 100% seeing myself into that. 4:04 And then when I discovered that, I was like, yeah, I want to be like in this part of the journey, like even though I'm solving problems, but I want to solve it on this way. And also like it gives you the opportunity to always keep learning things. And somehow as you ex designer, it's not only about like what are you doing into your work, but how are you approaching other industries as well? 4:26 So you will be able to provide the value that you are supposed to add. And yeah, that's the story. 4:33 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, definitely. I feel like even as of right now, we still see the very stereotypical tech brocoder out there. So I totally get what you're talking about. For the people who are perhaps a little bit far off from the UX industry, where tech in general, are there any misconceptions that normal people would associate with UX? 4:54 Common misconceptions about UX Yeah, definitely. Because The thing is like it's called user experience designer. So people are somehow not listening to the user experience part and just listening to the design. So you're going to be getting associated to like product designers, graphic designers, local designers and all of those things. 5:13 Like even though there is like many multidisciplinary like designers or like generalistic ones, but somehow like you all know, like when you are getting niche, like there is deeper level to that than just like what are knowing into the industry. 5:29 So yeah, that's one of the most misconceptions. And then there is like the part where people are getting a little bit of knowledge regarding technology. So they start missing out between like UX and UI and thinking the fact of creating lighting, that's UX design, while it's not like that's a part of the UI design which is built over the strategy that has to be like coming on hand at the first step. 5:53 Speaker 2 Definitely. 5:54 The interview rejection that revealed her entrepreneurial path And say, before starting Miliora, did you always see yourself as an entrepreneur? 5:59 Speaker 1 Probably here like the first person who saw the entrepreneur on me was the person that I had an interview with. Like I was like just young looking for like my first big girl job and all of that. 6:14 And I had this interview that I honestly changed my whole perspective into the career. And somehow we are still like in talking with this person after the interview, he was like, look, I'm seeing it. I was this when I was younger. 6:29 And you are not supposed to be stuck in the office. Anyone trying to stuck you in a queue, just get out of that place. And since my business is built to like have people full time just over there, I can't be making you on this plan, you know? 6:44 So that's my favorite suggestion somehow. And honestly, it highlighted the way I work. And afterwards, even the jobs that I got, they were either contractors, either there's a lot of flexibility into them. And even I was working in a remote standpoint before COVID and getting like as like the norm of working remotely. 7:06 So yeah. And I feel super grateful for that because that's how it helped me to manage my energy and keep like this kind of revive thinking. 7:15 Family reactions and choosing a non-traditional career path Definitely. So I see that you're sort of already used to this flexibility even before starting. So that's like a very natural transition, I would say. That's amazing. And were your parents or your family members entrepreneurial or is this something new in the family from you? 7:30 Speaker 1 It's something new, definitely. 7:32 Speaker 2 How were they reacting especially? 7:34 Speaker 1 Like, my first degree was in mathematics, so I'm supposed to be a teacher. And all the questions started from there. How am I leaving that? And I'm supposed to be doing that and doing like a thesis and all of that. But I was not seeing myself there specifically. 7:52 Like my brothers are getting like that road of having like, their bachelor's, master's degree and all of that. And then there is me. So. So yeah. 7:59 Speaker 2 Were they surprised about it and were they supportive? 8:04 Speaker 1 They were surprised, surprised and also like there were like a lot of questions through the way. But then when they start seeing the growth, things changed. And now like they are more in the sport aside, which is amazing. And everyone like deserves to be having a supportive family. 8:20 What Meliorar means and who it helps But somehow like all this wave of technology, we need to be understanding as well. And we take the time for them to learn about it and guide them through our journeys to understand why we are doing this and what's actually our vision beyond everything like stereotypically related to entrepreneurship, to help them support us in the right way. 8:42 Speaker 2 OK. And now let's perhaps delve into a little bit more on the business that you're building more than Miliora. So how would you describe Miliora in a simple term? 8:53 Speaker 1 Well, Miliora, it's like a Latin word that means to improve. And that word is actually like summarizing. Everything we are doing is helping entrepreneurs, improving what they are providing to the market. 9:08 Speaker 2 And say if you want to use three or five keywords or maybe perhaps less to describe it as some sort of identity that you're associating with Meliora, how would you say? 9:19 Speaker 1 Would say collaborative like that's the first one. Trust like we have like a huge believe in trust like whether internally or like with everyone that we are working on of course creativity, innovation and intuitive. 9:36 Speaker 2 And who is your ideal client? 9:39 Speaker 1 My ideal client currently is growth stage. It means like people who are already like working on their vision and start having a little bit of traction, but somehow that vision is not a blooming in the way that they were hoping for. 9:54 So they're where we are stepping on to help them. 9:56 Speaker 2 Out right. And when founders come to you, say, your past clients, what kind of problems are they usually facing that you observe? 10:03 Speaker 1 So the most recurring problem that they are coming with is either adoption or retention. So either like people are actually signing up but then there is no conversion to being a paid user, or like they are just like a dead account. 10:19 It means the account is still there, but there is no actual activities into their solution. 10:26 Why founders blame design when the real issue is deeper And then there is the part where they start having a really good growth and they start facing stagnation and that can be like coming from different reasons. 10:37 Speaker 2 And to you, what is the difference between a founder who's saying, oh we need better design and the real problem like you said being activation retention where revenue friction? 10:49 Speaker 1 That's a conversation that we usually have because if the moment they start blaming design, it means something is happening with the product that no one is able to point the finger to. And the easiest thing to blame is design because there is no concrete foundation or principles that can actually say if the design is working or not. 11:09 So if the technology is failing, it means like there's going to be like a lot of bugs or like the whole software going to be crashing out. If the operations is like bad, they're going to be having like certain of support tickets. You're going to be finding like things like people are blaming actually like the support system and all of that. 11:29 But for design, no one can actually point to us not actually working. So it's easier to say the design is not working. So, so yeah. And there where we start having like the conversation in reverse engineering way for us. 11:44 So we start from like the outside picture how how were you like seeing things to actually work. And then slowly you're gonna start getting like the root cause of everything is happening. 11:56 Speaker 2 So there's this whole problem solving layer right there and I see definitely design or something simple on the surface is something that people tend to blame if they can't find the solution. 12:06 The difference between a product that looks good and one that works It's easier to assign a problem to that. 12:09 Speaker 1 Definitely. 12:10 Speaker 2 I see to you what is the difference between a product that looks good and a product that actually works? 12:15 Speaker 1 How smooth the first introduction with the product. So usually when we are going to website or an application, there is a first goal that you are trying to have, either it's an information or we are trying to do a sign up or getting a product or whatever it is. 12:32 So if that initial process it's not as smooth and innovative as it should be, being pretty designed, it won't be helping out. 12:42 Speaker 2 Definitely. And just sort of adding on to that because I know a lot of our listeners are so founders and perhaps in their growth phase founders. So what are some signs that founders can try to spot that the product has AUS problem? 12:55 Speaker 1 I'm always saying get back to the basics. So there is like certain basic scenarios that every product needs to be covering. Even though you are thinking that your users won't be like needing as an initial step, but not finding those like cues into your screen, they won't be able to use it properly. 13:15 Why founders often build their dream product instead of what users need And do you think founders often misdiagnose their own product problems? 13:20 Speaker 1 I won't say misdiagnose. It's like somehow especially like tech founders or like startup owners, they are having like two different backgrounds. Either they are mastering the technologies so well and there is like huge folks and the technology or they are mastering like certain markets or certain operational level. 13:37 Like I don't know, they are doctors, they are lawyers, accountant, whatever it is. So somehow this kind of, let's say, expertise that you are having, you start reflecting on your own experience instead of asking what the users are actually doing or what are the other alternatives that you might not be using when you were like working on those industries. 14:02 So on that way, instead of building like products that's going to be chipping into the market, you're going to be building your dream product. 14:11 Speaker 2 Exactly. So it's not really reflective of. 14:14 Speaker 1 What they were and there where they got super confused, like I even got asked that question. They were like, this is how we imagine to solve this, how no one is actually seeing it beside us. It's simple because when we are doing our own work, everyone's going to start having their own kind of routines and their own like workflows, frameworks and all of it. 14:36 So we start missing out. What are the other solutions? What are like the other alternatives? But when you are building something that's targeting the market, you're going to be facing all of those. 14:46 Speaker 2 Definitely, it's so easy to get stuck in the tunnel vision, especially when it like came from our heart. It's like the product is your own baby and you don't want to hurt it or kill it in any way or even just like, you know, edit it or like just to change it in a way it hurts. So I feel like it's easy for people to think, Oh my gosh, I don't want to do anything because I think this is what I envisioned it. 15:06 Why you cannot educate the market on everything But this is maybe it might not be what's the most realistic or what's the users actually seeking for, right? 15:12 Speaker 1 From there where it comes like the term of like educating the market, but we can't be educating the market for everything, especially like now with all the alternatives that we are having as a human being. It's better to be like the best option into the market than actually trying to educate them into something totally different as a start. 15:31 Speaker 2 For sure. And can you share an example of a product problem that looks like a design issue but was actually a strategy were more like a decision making issue? 15:40 Speaker 1 One thing that I can recall of like the design was in the dark mode only. 15:46 A real example: when “design” was actually an offer problem So and somehow they were like giving like a lot of like dark complex design in a way, especially like heavy in features and all of that. So when users were not able to actually go and book their first sessions of coaching, they thought the problem is coming from the design. 16:04 Definitely there is a design problem over there, but was not only that. And then when we start having our first session, like our first session in the process is usually like a workshop that we do with all the stakeholders to understand the vision, to understand what they are actually blaming or thinking the problem is coming from. 16:21 And through the process, we start diagnostic their own offer and the whole problem was the offer itself and how they are actually building the different coaching sessions and how it's not like a self-explanatory as it's supposed to be for the users to book those sessions. So yeah and then we by fixing those things and actually like reduce everything to one key offer and from there we can start like cross selling other things and things get start moving from there. 16:48 Speaker 2 Thank you for sharing the example. That's so classic. OK, so since we already started talking about research and like this kind of retention and founder decision making, you talked a lot about like evidence based product decisions. 17:00 Evidence-based product decisions What does that mean to you? 17:01 Speaker 1 Evidence can come either like quantitative or qualitative. When we are seeing like quantitative evidence, it means like your Google Analytics dashboards, your numbers, how many users are you having? How many users are taking certain actions and not only that but also like the numbers over your competitors. 17:21 So that would help you. What's your market share actually and what you are missing out from this specific market that you are trying to dominate. And then for the collective, there is things as social listening. There is like the feedback that you are receiving everything post selling until we get to actual our primary user research methodologies. 17:43 How founders can do useful user research with limited budget And for founders, perhaps just starting or with their limited budget, what's the simplest way to do useful user research? 17:49 Speaker 1 For me it's one simple advice. Instead of asking what the user wants, just start asking what my user is doing right now. Like this is a fun thing that I'm always doing is defining or identifying the competitors that they are not on the Internet. 18:07 Your competitor can be like something as silly as the paper and the pen. It can be anything. So you need to start thinking what your user actually is doing right now. And from there you're gonna have like the reasons why they are like having that specific alternative even though there is you and like maybe 2 or other digital solutions in the market and they are like just deciding not to use them. 18:30 Speaker 2 Definitely. And I feel like one of the misconceptions perhaps for a lot of founders, and when we're so deep into one project where we're thinking about users just like users, but then they're actually humans, you know, like you need to kind of imagine what they're doing and what do they want out of it. 18:44 Speaker 1 Yeah, definitely 100% like we are eventually like human beings. Like there is one thing that I said like even during London tech week is we can't now separate user experience from customer experience because once he is paid user they got they are customers. 19:00 Why user experience and customer experience cannot be separated And if you are trying to separate this two like processes from each other, they're going to start impacting each other and. 19:08 Speaker 2 Related to that, you've also written a lot about Activision versus retention. So why are there so many retention problems? Actually activation problems? 19:17 Speaker 1 So sometimes we are thinking if the user is signed up it means he's active. 19:22 Activation vs retention: what founders often misunderstand Why it's not being an active user means you are taking like proactive actions into like the app that you are using. And to get like the further step is to actually be a paid user. And sometimes some free users can be like more useful than the paid ones if they are using the app more because they're going to be helping into the feedback, they're going to be helping into the product. 19:44 They're going to be like your beta testers in the future. So that what does mean an active user over a specific software, but for retention there where everything is happening and there where we are actually building the experience and where the investment should be done because once it's sign up. 20:04 The work starts to keep them into that specific application and here certain people, they're going to start imagining how can I provide 1000 features so they'll do everything into my application. But it's not actually the best thing to do. Sometimes the best thing to do is provide one feature that's done genuinely right that the users won't use anything else for it, even though if they are using other softwares they're going to getting back to that specific like tool to do that. 20:34 For me, I'll be giving like pretty like simple example, Google Calendar. There is many calendars, there is like thousands of productivity apps. There is many apps that they are trying to be like more about time management at all. But eventually we are all getting back to our Google calendars. 20:52 Everyone is having a Google account and that's the easiest thing to be linking it to everything into your life. 20:59 Speaker 2 That's a great example and thank you so much for sharing. Now let's talk more about building Miliora as a founder. So it's more about your journey, but all of those that you talked about are so valuable lessons for founders who are especially just starting in the growth phase. 21:13 Building Meliorar as a solo founder So thank you for that. So moving from what you're teaching, you're not only advising founders, you're also building a business yourself. What has that been like overall the journey? How's it going? 21:23 Speaker 1 Roller coaster crazy. It's a full journey like sometimes no day gonna be like the previous day and other days you're gonna be like super stagnant and boring as you start questioning yourself. 21:38 And even this boringness doesn't mean that you are not actually working or you don't have a client. It means you are just waking up doing the same exact thing, going to bed in the same exact time. And, and yeah, from there where the compound starts building up. So that's, that's the journey eventually, you know, OK. 21:55 Speaker 2 What is like the hardest thing so far? The hardest? 22:00 Speaker 1 Thing I'm going to be speaking about this as a solo founder, because when you are solo founder, things get harder in a way. There is no one you actually can brainstorm with. There is no one you can like talk to them about specific problems that they are having. 22:15 Every new solution, every SOP should be coming from within you and there where you are trying to learn a bunch of things, taking care of many things. So that's a struggle on itself. I have other friends who are either solo founders or having Co founders and sometimes are seeing things can get like a little bit easier when you are having a Co founder because even when you are trying to have your Hermes mode on, it is someone who is facing the world for you and for the company. 22:43 But when you are a solo founder, if you are in Hermus mode, it means there is no one is facing anything. 22:49 Speaker 2 Yeah, no, definitely. And it's just so hard that sometimes you're the only person suffering through all of those. Like you said, it could be mundane processes, it could be so boring and you have no one to share it with, and it's frustrating. 23:03 Positioning pivots and redefining success And was Miliar's positioning Claire from the beginning or does it kind of like change over time? 23:08 Speaker 1 No, it's got built overtime. Like it didn't start in this way. And also when I started, I started it as like a consultant more than anything. And then I start like conversion it like bits by bits word like studio format, which is the actual one. 23:26 Also something happening when you are growing as a person, you are growing as a founder, you start your next search and stuff and there it's gotten like more enlightenment into what you are actually doing. The third thing that that I want to talk about, there is a huge influence into like what success is actually like from social media and all of that. 23:45 And I started in a youngish age as as an entrepreneur. So there were like a lot of influence and like this generic definition of success or this generic definition of how things are supposed to be done. And then with the time we realized not really. 24:02 And it's not like a requirement or like a must have to be like that way. And then you start like looking upon yourself what you are actually looking for and why you started like this whole journey and building your way or your definition of success or your definition of having like a business. 24:23 Speaker 2 And was a hard to move from being seen as someone who execute design work to someone who leads the strategy. 24:30 Speaker 1 Yeah, definitely. Because like there is like still misconceptions into the market as I explained earlier. And sometimes people doesn't get it. How does it mean? Like what does it mean to have like a product strategy or what does it mean like to actually having someone to follow up like the vision of the product and all of that. 24:50 And now with the race of EI, many people think it's just like 2 clicks away while actually it's not. That's why it's called behavioural design. We are trying to design a whole like behavioural around the product. So it's getting like a bit by bit and then there is like huge misconception between like solo founder and a freelancer in a way. 25:12 So somehow they are thinking like that you are having a vibe business or whatever it's called. 25:18 Educating the market through content, workshops, and thought leadership So there is a lot of market education that has been done with our brand, which is like extremely important for anyone who is having like a niche service. 25:26 Speaker 2 So how did you go about, for example, educating people in that field and just kind of like telling them or clarifying what you're doing? How is that process? 25:35 Speaker 1 I'm still in the early in the journey. 25:38 Speaker 2 Yeah. 25:39 Speaker 1 So for that I start like content creation. I started out our blog where we are writing down like certain definitions for the terms for what we are doing, trying to build awareness over that, as well as having workshops and being super talking about and defending your ideas. 25:55 It's extremely important. So that's the way we are doing it. Also, as I said, we are in the collaborative approach. So for us, like we are sitting down with people and actually like guiding them through what's actually happening and if we are still a match or we are what they are actually needing going to be like collaborating together. 26:13 If it's not like it's fine, we met someone new, you know? 26:16 Building in public and learning from mistakes Gosh, you're doing so many things at the same time. I'm quite curious about the whole, you know, building in public arena. How has that been for you and how what has it taught you? 26:27 Speaker 1 Well, building in public, it's one thing that's extremely doing for everyone is keeping you committed to your vision. But at the same time it's super humbling that you can say, oops, I did the mistake. It's not working that way. 26:44 It's like between these two, but in the same time, sometimes when you are launching something, you're going to be going like for the full journey to actually testing it out and see if it's actually working or not. Like for example, I launched before a workshop and then I launched it in the wrong format. 27:00 So it didn't work in the right way. But in the same time, I learned what the market is actually needing. 27:06 Entrepreneurship as “free therapy” And now I'm writing down like another way of like providing this workshop. So. 27:10 Speaker 2 So this part is going to be more about personal growth advice and your own reflection. That's usually the most fun part for. So what has entrepreneurship taught you about yourself? 27:21 Speaker 1 Oh there is something that I was watching last week or like 2 weeks ago. Like someone said, entrepreneurship is a free therapy and I can't like forget about that line honestly, because somehow entrepreneurship going to be triggering every single thing that you know or didn't know about it in yourself. 27:43 This kind of like pressure, going for the unknown, doing things that you never get learned how to do, but now you are responsible to do them. It's like one of the hardest things to do, but also like one of the most fun things because you are just there for the experience. 28:02 But somehow like our like minds didn't build for that. And you are not supposed to be like crushing one thing after the other that we are not knowing what we are doing in there in real life, changing ourselves, like growing, having like this capacity of expanding our comfort zone day after day. 28:22 That's like one of the most challenging in a way, especially specifically like in the beginning. And then you start asking how far can I go? So I'm here right now and then like how far, where can I go? And that's far. You are not even seeing it. So you are just like going into, I won't say like into the darkness because it's not like something negative, but in the answer eternity and you start building your confidence outside of that, you are learning like it's OK sometimes not to knowing all the answers. 28:50 It's OK. Sometimes things are not like working, but in the same time we don't have like a really good Plan B. So yeah, that's that's what about. 29:00 Speaker 2 Experimentation. 29:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, it has been like a lot of experimentation for me because as I said, like when you are studying like something in the technology part, and this is like not only for me, even my friends who are like developers or like CT OS and things like that, we are just studying our industry. 29:18 Learning law, finance, sales, marketing, and operations as a founder So it's like about the technicality, about like the norms, principles, but we got zero knowledge in finance, accountant laws, rules, operational level management, as if we are getting trained to be executors. 29:34 And then when you are finding yourself getting out of what you are supposed to do, you start facing all of these things one by one. And there you start prioritizing things and you start finding your own ways to learn things. For example, for me, people usually like just go to an accountant or like Start learning about the site. 29:51 For me, it was another thing for me, first thing is finding a really good lawyer and actually learning about laws. Because here we are like doing things with GTPR. There is like consumer like laws, there is like the consumer rights, there is like creation rights and all of those things. 30:08 So I needed to actually learn about those not only to protect myself, but also to protect my clients. And that was like extremely important for me. And you will find like static lows in a way just to be able like to observe certain things. It doesn't mean like I'm writing down my contracts, but it means when I'm reading a contract I know what's actually going on. 30:28 Speaker 2 Over there, yeah, for sure, for sure. I feel like it's the same with accounting as well. Even if you can hire accountant, you need to know what's actually going on before you hire someone. So there's a lot of new learnings. 30:38 Speaker 1 Definitely. And then there is sales, there is like marketing and people like keep saying like just hire someone, but when you are founder, just hiring is not a solution. You need to actually have like an understanding of what kind of investment you are doing. 30:54 What does it mean to have like a fair payment to the person that you are hiring? What does it mean to have like a really good operational setup for that specific person? And all of those, it, it doesn't mean like I need to actually like do the work of the other person, but I need to have this knowledge so the other person can provide. 31:11 I'd like the right support for me. And yeah, those things no one tells you about until you have your first hire, for example, you know? 31:19 Why sales can feel especially difficult for women founders Exactly. You have to learn every single thing on the go and so far, OK, so out of all of those subjects that you have mentioned, what's been the most fun part and what's been the most frustrating part that you have to learn? 31:30 Speaker 1 The most frustrated part is sales and this is like, apparently it's coming for female founders. I don't know. But like, that's what I keep hearing from all female founders and like the most fun part is content creation. 31:43 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. As a creative person, it's really like a outlet for creativity. 31:47 Speaker 1 Yeah. And also it's it's fun. It's like where you are actually showing out what's your vision, how you are actually seeing things, who are you like and all of that. So that's the fun part. But everything related to sales, especially like when you start, the first advice is gonna be like more from your male friends. 32:07 So it's more about Shank going further. But you are here for me. I'm hearing all of the sudden I'm saying I can't do that. And people are saying like you are a really good conversation on how you say you are not good at sales because I'm good at conversations. 32:24 I can't go to someone like I don't know how I'm selling this. So and there's step by step you Start learning what's your style and you I discovered like there is different types of, of sales people and there is different types of actually promoting your services and promoting what you are doing. 32:42 And there you will need to find a way that is more aligned with you as a human being and to skip that kind of authenticity, actually serve the brand that you are like presenting. So if I'm not B2C brand, I'm not like selling like a mass service or a mass product. 33:01 So I can't be like and the go, go, go, go. It's more about like the niche, it's about the exclusivity. We are working like with a few people, but we are more more into like the long term partnership. So in that way you start valuing more like building relationship, building partnerships, which is extremely important for us. 33:17 Women, self-advocacy, and learning to sell authentically And also it's more aligned with me as a human being, which is amazing. 33:22 Speaker 2 And we were talking about sales and how the it's so difficult. You mentioned that a lot of your female friends have the same frustration. What do you think? It's kind of like bonding us together and facing how difficult sales are for women. 33:34 Speaker 1 It starts since our childhood, since I'm having this theory of all of us having this collective experience. Apparently somehow since our childhood, we are like advised to be like soft spoken to be like not be, not asking for so much, don't overly celebrate your achievements and all of that. 33:53 And even if you are like growing up in an area or like in families where like being in the top of the class is not like something new, you are not celebrating your achievements as well. And that's going to be like growing with us. And then you're going to go like to work and you're going to be like seeing that as well. So somehow it's like a built up memory more than anything. 34:12 So I won't be saying like I was not a loud kid because as I remember in my childhood, I was like doing a lot of activities, but in the same time I was like the kind of calm kid, you know? So there were like not a lot of loudness around everything I'm doing. 34:28 So if people by accident knew what I'm doing, so that's OK. If they didn't, that's OK as well. So somehow that's grow with me. And then you start changing yourself. You Start learning like you are another service provider from like millions of other service provider in the globe and now with the competitiveness it's like outside of the borders, especially like when you are starting targeting multiple markets. 34:53 And if you are not advocating for yourself, no one else going to be advocating. 34:57 Speaker 2 For Yeah, that is so well said. And I feel like that's definitely one of those societal things that we face as a woman because we're not taught to like, take the risk. Oh, don't boast too much. You need to be humble. You don't want to like stand out, but like, you want to like fit in. 35:12 And I think that's one of the most problematic, I guess norms in our society is actually for girls. So as a woman founder and a strategist, did you ever feel pressure to kind of like, prove your authority? 35:24 Speaker 1 Maybe when I was younger. Now I'm more at peace on who am I as a person, how am I doing things? And I'm not actually affected with those kind of judgments. But when you are young, you start having this feeling or this urge to take on your place in the table, you see, so, and that's OK, honestly. 35:45 And now even though I'm talking like to younger, like female, either like founders or trying to be founders, I'm saying always like it's OK to try like to highlight your work, to highlight your value. But the most important thing, don't make it like the whole thing. 36:00 And the best way to advocate for yourself is actually like to do something. Only you can do it that way. 36:08 Speaker 2 So funny you're exactly. And so for people, especially women, who are really good at their craft but maybe perhaps hesitate to position themselves as expert, do you have any advice for people who are feeling that sort of emotion? 36:22 Speaker 1 Feel uncertainty and just started. Honestly, there would never be a good moment to start and there will be always something that we need to improve, something that we need to learn. So why wasting all of that time while you can start and in the same time like improving those what I call like elements or like procrastination devices. 36:43 Why there is never a perfect moment to start But we love doing it for ourselves. Like, I don't know, I want to start a podcast or I want to start content creating. You don't need to start to wait until you get like the best gadget ever you we all have smartphones. Start with whatever you have and slowly start upgrading your gadget. 37:01 If you are trying to go like freelancing or starting your business, like start out that in the moment the idea clicks and build upon that specific idea. So otherwise every time or trying to start that you're going to be having like this amazing excuse or this thing that you need to do before like getting to that one. 37:22 Speaker 2 Definitely. I feel like procrastination is one of the hardest thing to conquer, especially when you have excuses of I feel like oftentimes we're so trapped at this mess of like perfection. When we get that point, I'll do whatever. 37:33 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it's sometimes sad because I have been seeing people that with the time and with the seniority, especially people who are mastering their craft, they're going to start getting higher salaries. They're going to have better social positioning from their, like, job. 37:49 And then the reason's going to be I can't leave all of that behind to struggle building a business. 37:55 Speaker 2 Which I. 37:56 Speaker 1 Start exactly which I start to understand if you are like to start getting used to certain life luxury, you won't be able to accept the fact that as the founder gonna you're gonna be having days where you are paying everyone. 38:09 Speaker 2 But if you have. 38:10 Speaker 1 $0.00 or £0 into your bank account. 38:14 Speaker 2 Definitely. And Speaking of confidence, this sort of like don't wait until you're perfect. 38:19 Confidence is not always loud What do you wish more founders understood about confidence? 38:22 Speaker 1 Confidence is not like for the loudest first person into the room. Like that's something that I was confused about as well. So I was thinking like the person who is talking the loudest, talking the most, and all of that is like the most confident or like the most credible person into the room. 38:39 But with time you start seeing like no, the most soft spoken, the one with like the fewest words. Sometimes that's like the best person to work with. And there you Start learning that confidence has different shapes and ways of presenting. 38:54 Also, being confident is totally different from perfection and it's totally is different from like knowing everything or doing everything right. It's more about like the belief and the trust that you are following up a process and you will get to whatever objective you are having at the end and you keep moving with the flow. 39:13 Imposter syndrome as part of growth And Speaking of confidence, one of the other concept that we often talk about is imposter syndrome. Did you ever get that? 39:21 Speaker 1 That's my friend, definitely like you, you can't keep growing if you are not having an ambassador syndrome in a way or another. And again, like I met while he was like my career counsellor in the university and they were like telling me, is imposter syndrome something that would never be removed in your. 39:43 Speaker 2 World never going to go away. 39:46 Speaker 1 Exactly because you're going to be getting like the next level, that's going to be like your new comfort zone and whatever next objective is going to be accompanied with like Ambassador Sandrum again because you are feeling you are not belonging there until you start belonging and it starts being your comfort zone. 40:02 And that side will keep going on our whole life, especially if we are ambitious. We are building something that is cycle. 40:09 Speaker 2 True, because especially when you want to grow, you need to keep pushing yourself out of your boundary, out of your comfort zone. And when you're out of your comfort zone, you often feel like an in foster, which is so real you can't really. 40:18 Speaker 1 And also another thing I want to always keep on mind, we are all human. Eventually, when we are younger in age, we're gonna find ourselves in rooms with people who are having 25 years of experience, who are at the age of our dads or even grandpas. 40:33 So it's OK to feel that you don't belong, but honestly, you belong there since you are already invited. 40:40 Speaker 2 Exactly. Especially when you're in the same room with all those people who are a lot more senior. You should feel more proud of yourself. Celebrate it. Yeah, I really agree. And Speaking of that, in a little tech week, I feel like that's sort of the idea as well. There's so many people who are like perhaps 20 or 30 years younger, older than us. 40:59 How did you feel about it? How did you navigate this kind of like locale? This kind of like scenario? 41:04 Speaker 1 I was saying if my craft was not good, I would not get the invitation. 41:09 Speaker 2 Exactly. 41:10 Speaker 1 And that's how I was able to navigate all of that. And that's one thing. And the other thing is people are having different starting points. And that person that I'm seeing today that's aging like 5040 or whatever, one day was on my age. 41:27 One day was like freshly graduate, one day was looking for his first internship or her first internship. So we are all starting navigating our ways through like the world. Why am I making it overly complicated? Yeah. 41:40 Speaker 2 I like this mindset. So at Lunatech Week AI, obviously it's like such a buzzword with all the agents going on. How do you think AI is changing product design and UX strategy? 41:53 Speaker 1 For me, I'm having like 2 parts of the of the story, like the first part, it's really amazing how technology is democratized, how technology is like accessible for everyone right now. Because beforehand again, like if you are talking about like 2013, 2014, if you are talking about building a software, it's going to be something super mysterious. 42:12 And the developers were having like the best time of their lives because they were doing something that no one else is able to do that. But now with the white coding, I'm not saying that it can be like the same complexity as a real developer, but somehow it can give you like certain view like envisioning your product or what you are trying to build as a solution. 42:33 So we have that kind of accessibility to build, but in the same time it's making it super hard for the product to be usable because now the way that softwares is getting built over EI, there's no actual thinking. It's just like prompting and like I believe in certain model will be able to actually solve those kind of problems. 42:53 That's why now the highest churn rate is over like Gen. EI apps. But there is no actual thinking and processes behind this building. 43:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, there's so much, like false confidence for founders over, you know, like one of those rappers. 43:06 Speaker 1 In a way, yes, exactly. Somehow like the best way to use AI right now is like over like brainstorming sessions. It's easier to make prototyping fast and to actually like see where the flows are and all of that. But if you are trying to have something with like an overload of users, for example, you can trust the security side of that application that you built by coding in a way you see you are needing an actual like developer for that. 43:34 You need to cyber security for that and all of those elements. And then and when you are talking about usability and accessibility, since EI has no mindfulness regarding like empathy regarding human parts, the mental models and all of that. 43:49 So you're going to be ending up sometimes with something that that's not actually solving the problem. It's just acting as if solving the problem. So now product design is turning from actually building the product to solving those kind of frustrations to the users. 44:07 Speaker 2 I really like that. That is such a good analysis. And do you think we're kind of entering a world where building is cheap, but then building something so well it's hard, and knowing what to build is the real advantage? 44:18 Speaker 1 Like knowing what to build and how to build it. Their advantage is and people who are mastering like that kind of craft and also understanding the different influence for a product built, they're gonna be huge advantage in the future years. 44:34 Speaker 2 Okay, so as are sort of approaching to the final questions, I've got some quick fire questions for you. They're very short and sweet. 44:41 Quick-fire founder questions So what is 1 product decision founders should rethink this week? 44:45 Speaker 1 Do you actually need that feature? 44:48 Speaker 2 Love that and what is one question that every founder should ask their users? 44:54 Speaker 1 I think I think your users is why you signed up at the 1st. 44:58 Speaker 2 Place and OK more about you Are you a morning person or night out? 45:01 Speaker 1 I'm trying to transition being a morning person but I keep calling to be an idol. 45:07 Speaker 2 Fair. And what is next for Miliora? 45:11 Speaker 1 Next is something called product utiligence. We see which is more related to investment processes. 45:18 What’s next for Meliorar Fun one last question for you. Wham, how did you get so good at public speaking? 45:23 Speaker 1 Well, I didn't burn this way, and my first public speaking was not like, that's good. We can say it was embarrassing in a way. Thank God there were no camera and that's true or I was gonna be evidence for it. So I start looking for advices and training programs for actually how to be better into public speaking, into articulation and all of that. 45:45 Wiem’s public speaking advice So one, I got advised about theater and all of that but was not my piece of cake. And then I found like a psychology hack where you start like speaking your ideas to yourself out loud and journaling about them and start building like the habit of daily journaling. 46:04 And I started getting bored because the exercise was like just to like talking about your days or what you want to do into the day. And I'm not that much kind of person so I just start having like the exercise of writing down 2 pages a day, but I can't talk about anything I want. 46:21 So that can be about a movie, about the book I'm actually reading, but something happening into my business about myself. I hope anything. And there you start like having this journey with yourself where you are having better awareness and understanding about everything going on. 46:38 And somehow it's reflecting now how am I like speaking out loud with other people's as well. Also like never ever prepare a full pitch or like just like getting by heart every single word that you are trying to say because once you miss 1 words, you're going to be like actually falling apart. 46:56 Just have like the general theme that you want to talk about if you are giving workshop or you are giving like a keynote. Like what are like the three key elements that I want to deliver or what I want my public or listeners to actually go home with as ideas and then just navigate everything around that? 47:13 Speaker 2 OK, that's so nice. So well said. Thank you so much. And lastly, where can people find you and follow your work? 47:19 Speaker 1 You can find me over LinkedIn sub stack and our website. 47:23 Speaker 2 OK amazing. I'll link everything up there and thank you so much. This has been so lovely. 47:28 Speaker 1 You are welcome. I really enjoyed our conversation, it's super fun. I'm glad that I said yes to this. 47:34 Speaker 2 I'm also so glad that you said yes to this because all of those that you have shared, it's really valuable lessons for people who are building as well. 47:40 Speaker 1 Yeah. Thank you so much. Definitely like if you, you are like one of our listeners have any questions, please don't hesitate to reach out.