Contract Extensions Latest and Early Awards Predictions!

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We talk about his contract extension and Cade Cunningham. And should that really be the measuring stick for whether you pay Jalen Durham $40 million or lose him or trade him, just a very strange situation that I personally did not see unfolding this way. We'll talk about that. A Sar Thompson, Carl Antony Towns reported stalemate in his extension talks to talk about the nicks and the second apron, Steph Curry's extension, some rookie deal extensions. Why sign his two year deal with the Raptors? We talk about how that deal might age and whether the Raptors are taking on more risk than maybe they're giving credit for. And then we pick some awards, coach of the air, six man to the air and some reflections on Lawrence Tantor's time with the Lakers and Nick Batoum's career. That's all coming up on the Zach Lowe Show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Thursday. Look who it is. It's time to say the most hello three words in the history of niche basketball podcast and what a back. What's happened Zach? How are you sir? It's been a bit. I'm good. I'm good. We're going to go around the league. We have some newsy stuff to get to. There's not much going on in terms of like actual basketball training camp is still a bit away, but we have some news that we're going to start in Detroit, a pivotal summer for the 60 win Detroit pistons, the number one seed in the Eastern conference and unconvincing seven game victory over the Orlando Magic and round one, which may well have gone the other way, had the magic a not lost Franz Wagner B not shit the bed at home with the big lead in game six. Alas, they did lose Franz Wagner and they did poop all over the bed and then a seven game loss to the Cleveland Cavaliers nonetheless, everything looking up for the pistons heading into a pivotal summer that has gone a little sideways, Mr. Beck. First, I believe reported attempts by them to get a secondary ball handler using their cap space cap space that could vanish very quickly after this off season were real. I think they tried very hard to get Austin Reeves. I think that got like, you know, if the Lakers had fumbled it a little bit longer. Maybe that was open. Maybe they would have gotten Austin Reeves. They didn't. And so now here we are. They have extended a Sar Thompson at five years, 150 something million dollars and Jalen Durin still twists in the wind one week from today. Unless the two sides agree to extend the deadline. There is an October first deadline for Jalen Durin to take the qualifying off for one year about nine million dollars or it vanishes. This is getting spicy, Mr. Beck, with every day that ticks away till that October first deadline with every report that gets leaked out most recently from the athletic that the pistons for some reason unbeknownst to me tried to put a weight bonus rate weight related clause, maybe a bonus, maybe not into Jalen Durin's contract, even though Jalen Durin looks like a freaking Greek God statue with everything that goes by tick, tick, tick. The chances for this going not well for the pistons are going into a different direction. Increase just a little bit. He could take the qualifying offer. I mean, that is the nuclear option for Jalen Durin and just become an unrestricted reagent after next season, there are reports that he could sign a max with a couple of teams. And so that scenario amounts to about 200 million dollars over five years. The pistons according to reports that I believe are accurate are offering him about 200 million dollars over five years. So the amount of money is roughly the same. Normally, Howard, I would say if the amount of money is the same, you don't with no upside in risk, in risking the qualifying offer, you shouldn't risk the qualifying offer and just take the 200 million dollars that's in front of you. If I had to predict, I would still predict that cooler heads will prevail and something like that will occur, but I'm getting a little less sure of myself. What do you think? I think that this is a classic case of what a player is quote unquote worth, right, by his stats, his production, his age, his skill set, what you project team could still evolve into. What is worth, right? We talk about what a player is worth. It's an overpay. It's an underpay. This is about what he's worth versus what the market sort of dictates, right? Like Jalen Durin, I don't think at the stage, we consider a star center, but he's their star center, right? They won 60 games with him as a key piece. So he's super important to them. So in terms of market forces, in terms of leverage on the part of the agent, it's, we're really important to you. You should pay him as much as we can possibly squeeze out of you. And as close to the max as we can possibly get, even if you and I would sit here and everybody else around the league would sit here and say, well, he's not a max player as of yet and who knows, maybe he'll get there. You mentioned this recently, I think on the pod, Cade loves him. That's important. That works in their favor. So there's this pressure to keep him, you know, you drafted him. Your fans, your team, your own players, everybody wants him there. And so, and you wouldn't be easy to replace. That's the thing. If he signs the qualifying offer, the threat of him walking for nothing is real because there are teams that have a need for a center or like Jalen Durin and we'll have max cap space without having to do very much work. I'll talk about them in a bit, but like that's a, that's a real thing and that's a disaster for the pistons that they probably cannot afford to have happened. Yeah. But the flip side of that is when you, when you buckle to all those market forces and pressures that I just mentioned and you potentially overpay a guy again, what, what is overpaid is, I have the beholder sometimes and sometimes we don't know until a couple years into a deal. But you overpay a guy in this era, in the second apron, you fuck yourself and you've already got Kate on, on his max and Sar Thompson on a very nice deal by nice, I mean, a costly deal. You combine the three of them, you know, once Durin makes whatever it's going to be and it's going to take up a massive amount of your cap in an era where you have no room for error. So I understand the pistons wanting to be judicious here with this. I looked this up yesterday on spot track 40 million a year on average as an average salary, about a year by year, would place him eighth in the NBA among centers behind and beat Anthony Davis, Yokecitch, Kat, Bam, Chet and, uh, Sabonis, and right right above Shingoon and Walker Kessler, among others, I didn't have range and go bare and Jared Allen, which I don't know, sounds about right. So like, if he takes the deal, it's on the table. I think he's slotted right about where he should be. I don't know, like I just case making 50 million next season, a SARS making 26 million in the escalating into the 30s. You combine that with 40 million or whatever it's going to be for Jalen Durin, like you're pretty locked in. So again, like on the one hand, you cannot afford to lose him and you can't screw this up on the other hand, if you overpay him, you can really lock yourself in and, you know, you can't account for future injuries. Or what if what if Jalen Durin never advances past what do we saw on the playoffs as a postseason performer, then you're really hurting. And so I absolutely understand why the pistons are trying to hold the line here as valuable as he is to them. Let me be clear. I think five years, two hundred million dollars is fair for Jalen Durin. I think he should take it. I think I would take it if I were him. If I were his agent advising him, I would say, Hey, man, you can't be too emotional about this. And I'll talk about the reasons why he might be getting emotional about it. You just have to take this. And if I'm the pistons, I say, Hey, look, you're, you, you were not good in the playoffs. You're like flat out. Not good. We couldn't rely on you in the playoffs. We know you're young. We're going to grow. And we think this is a fair offer, considering that, yeah, you followed a third, you were 13 all NBA when the game's got hard. It was hard for you. Now, one of the reasons it was hard for him. And I think this is the ultimate question here. I mentioned how the pistons snipped around Austin Reeves. I probably did more. Didn't sniff around Austin Reeves. If they resigned Jalen Durin at 40 million on average per year. So that would start probably like 35 million. It's about let's say 22% of the cap. You would have between Durin, Cade and Assar Thompson's deal sounds huge. It's 16% of the cap. You would have about 70% of the salary cap, not 70% up to the luxury tax of the apron. 70% up to the cap. The lowest level we talk about tied up in three players actually think that. That's manageable. I think you can build out the team with 70% to those three players. It's not 70% to two players, which is what the Celtics were staring at. It's not 90% to three players, which is something like the thunder are staring at. If not more, one shades, super duper duper, big max contract kicks in. It's manageable. And I think you have two schools of thought on this number one. Those three players are going to make for a difficult offense because two of them are complete non shooters. And we saw what that meant for Cade's scrunched up pick and roll game and Detroit's offense in general in the playoffs. And even though 70% is a pretty nice figure for those three players, three young players have accomplished what they've accomplished. It's still going to make it very hard for them, whether by signing, impossible by signing and hard by trade to acquire that second ball handler that they may need if a Sar Thompson does not turn into that player. And I think that contract for a Sar Thompson is a bet on him whether growing as a ball handler, as a screener, as a handoff guy, turning into more of a true secondary third offensive option, ball handling option than he is now. And I don't know what you're supposed to do with that as the pistons. There's no question it's an imperfect offensive structure. It could also be a great defensive architecture. If Jalen Dern's game on defense catches up to what his game on offense was in the regular season, at least. He's still only 22 years old. I feel like I've been saying Jalen Dern is still only 22 years old for 22 years. He's younger than guys that just got drafted in the NBA draft. His trajectory on both ends of the floor should be very happy for the next several years. And if you're the pistons like trading him or losing him is a massive step back in the short term of your of your build and a short term where you just won 60 games. And long term, I've said this before, like they've got to find somebody to replace Jalen Dern. Maybe the replacement is a better secondary ball handler next decade. And then you make the center a placeholder position who makes the average salary, which I think Bill Simmons is kind of alluding to when he says, I would just sign and trade Dern for whatever I could get in terms of picks and assets and stuff like that, reallocate the money to the two or the three or the four and not the five. But look, man, it's hard when you're Detroit. You don't just get to go to the grocery store and pick these players. I get the idea of airing on the conservative side, especially if I can limit it to 70% of the cap for those three guys. I think that's fair for Jalen Dern and I would take it if I were him. Yeah, it's tough and I think we'll probably I'll circle back to this point again with another item in a few minutes here, but to have to have these conversations with your players, especially a young player who has, you know, I would say exceeded expectations since the day of his draft and has become a really important piece of again, a 60 win team, a plausible contender, and you're having to explain to them in this era, look, we think the world of you. We would love to pay you more. We would love to pay you everything that you want to make. But this is not a matter of what we're willing to spend in terms of salary or even the luxury tax. This is what will be functional or not functional for our team going forward. We want to win. We want to win championships with you and Kate and the SAR. We want to contend year and year out for the rest of your career. And to do that, we need flexibility. That's a really hard thing to tell a still 22 year old young player and his agent when they have shown a lot of value and they're looking at the same comps that we were just alluding to and saying, well, you know, we think we're better than this guy. We think he's going to exceed this guy. I think it's a harder conversation now than it was for the same GM or the people in those seats 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago, because things are just different now. The second apron has made it hard. You have to be careful about how you do this. As someone who values stylistic diversity around the league, I am rooting for this to work. I am rooting for Jail and Durin to go back to the pistons for a SAR Thompson to stay on the pistons and for the pistons to try to become a great team without the level of spacing that would seem commensurate to being a great playoff team. I get the challenges, no one has to tutor me on the spacing challenges. I like the pistons leaning into a, let's be an elite defensive team who beats those hell out of people on the glass, super physical on defense with Durin as the centerpiece of that. And the SAR Thompson on the wing guarding everyone guarding deflect the every pass that comes within a 20 foot radius of him. And let's try to win a different way. And let's try to win a different way while the SAR Thompson and Jail and Durin maybe don't become jumpshooters, but they become rounded enough offensively that we can make it work. That's what I'm sort of rooting for as a fan of stylistic diversity, and I get the difficulty in getting there now. We have a week until this October 1st deadline. There has not been a peep about any sign and trade negotiations from the pistons and Jail and Durin with other teams since the summer started. From what I've heard, the pistons have just flat out not even pretended to even engage in anything. Like not even we're not even taking the call, let alone even talking about it a little bit. I can, can you imagine, no, Howard, a scenario where it's five days from now. It's September 29th, no deal has been signed. And Jail and Durin's agents are telling you, hey man, in 36 hours we're signing the qualifying offer. This is a real threat. This isn't an empty threat. You maybe have thought it was an empty threat on September 23rd. It's not. It's September 29th. At that point, if you're the pistons, you are really playing a dangerous game of chicken for another 36 hours because either the threat is empty and he signs the deal you want. Or it's not, he says, fuck it. I'm mad. I'm angry. I know I have max deals elsewhere. I think I do. I'm signing the qualifying offer and leaving you for nothing. If you think that's a real possibility, there's a world in which sign and trade negotiations could start on September 28th or September 29th and we have a big bombshell before the season even begins before camp really even gets underway. I've always been skeptical of that because if you put $200 million in front of a player, they normally take it. But that's, that's a reality. Now here's the thing no one is talking about and the teams that have been bandied about are Milwaukee. Sacramento. I've heard some rumblings of Atlanta. I'm not 100% convinced that those rumblings are accurate, but the hawks certainly have the need for size draft assets to get things done and contracts they can bundle. Now they also have a ton, speaking of a team that's built around guys with shaky jump shots, they have a ton of those guys. Some of them might get traded in a theoretical jail and during deal, not jail and Johnson to be clear. Be that as it may. Another wrinkle to this is I had forgotten this and was reminded by some experts today. There is a remnant of base here compensation that comes into effect for sign and trade transactions of this ilk with jail and during at this agent is career with a salary that would jump to the degree that it would jump, which is really complicating for a trade like that he would count. If I read it, if I'm reading the CBA right, he saw let's say signs for $40 million in his first year, he would count outgoing trade value half of that for the pistons incoming trade value 100% of that for the team that gets him, meaning that team has to act as if they're trading for a $40 million player and send money in different, right? They might have to get a third team or a fourth team. So it's very difficult, but this is this is where we are. I'm still betting my money on things things get done cooler heads prevail, but every day that goes by, I get worried. I've said for the beginning, I'd be shocked if they didn't resolve this by media day and I'd still be shocked. I know we're getting awfully close, but I'd still be shocked and I'll be just as shocked if he takes the qualifying offer. I do wonder, we haven't talked about this at all. I don't know if it's been floated out there at all if you've been poking around on this particular aspect, but like, could he just go short? Do the, I'll bet on myself, take like a two-year deal at whatever number and put the pressure on them and on himself to revisit this in a couple of years. I don't know. It feels like they should be exploring every avenue to resolve this. I have to imagine that everyone is happier if he's still there, including Jalen Dorem. So let's go through the teams real quickly, because here's the point I keep making. You know, on the one hand, the pistons won 60 games last year. It's not like they're a cute, up-and-coming team. I don't care how many teams are tanking. It's still hard to win 60 games in the NBA. Now, if you want to tell me in a normal year with, in a year like this, no teams tanking or three teams tanking and not a third of the goddamn league, the pistons are like a 54-win team. They got five or six free wins that wouldn't otherwise exist to them. Fine. They're still a really good team. I don't think you should take taking a step back from that level of winning as like just something you take for granted in your journey to like winning bigger than that. That's still winning pretty big, even if the playoffs were ugly. So you talk about Milwaukee people throw a Miles Turner. I'm not trading Jalen Dern from Miles Turner and a couple of draft picks. Did anyone watch the finals two years ago or the entire season that Milwaukee bucks just had? That's too depressing. For the Kings, it would be subonus as this like nice placeholder and I probably get a draft asset. Maybe I get two draft assets. So yeah, subonus lifts me up for a couple of years before he gets into his 30s. And then I've got to what figure out how to pivot into another elite player. And this is what I keep saying of like, it's easy to say get off of Dern sign and trade him. It's the next move that you then have to absolutely nail in order to justify this move. If it were Atlanta, for instance, and again, I don't really believe Atlanta is involved, but let's just say that maybe they'd sniff around. It's a Kongwoo, because you need a center, you let Isaiah Stewart walk or trade Isaiah Stewart rather, to Memphis. It's a Kongwoo and some other contracts and maybe a couple draft assets. Is that the big move that Atlanta is holding out to make? I'm not really sure it is. A Kongwoo would revolutionize the piston spacing at the cost of some size and some defense. These are really tough questions, and I just want to defend Jalen Durn. I just, I do, he's getting a lot of shit from piston spans who are like sick of him turning down these deals and all of this. Just try to take a deep breath and imagine all of this from his perspective. Number one, there was nothing close to an extension for him last year when he was extension eligible. The pistons made it pretty clear to him, but not made it clear. It was just, it wasn't close. You feel like you have to go prove it. You then go make 13 all NBA and prove it. And yeah, you're not asking for the max anymore, but you, you know, you're, you're full pretty highly about yourself. And yeah, the playoff sucked, but I'm 22 years old, still 22 Howard. And then as this is happening, I saw Thompson, who's a year behind me on the contract timetable gets, let's ballpark $30 million a year. And I'm sitting here like, wow, my extension talks didn't get that far. I'm not even under contract. I'm a restricted free agent. Like I understand why he's getting his feelings, maybe a little bit as the kids say, but I still would take this deal if I were him. And I think if that's the offer, that's a fair offer, the pistons have done enough to make a deal. But here we are. Yeah. No, I'm with you. I'm with you. He should take the offer. I hope he takes the offer. I hope the pistons are whole when things get rolling next week. I think they're going to win a lot of games if they bring jail and they don't. And they get a representative starting center, they'll probably still win a decent number of games and be less exciting and less coherent going forward with one big move in the bag that the like, I keep hearing on other podcasts, like they've got to find an elite secondary ball handler, like a true superstar, two way shooting guard or small forward who can really carry the load. And they tried to get Austin reason, all that like, okay, who are they going to go trade for Jason Tatum tomorrow? Like, you're talking about a universe of like four guys. Okay. Other contract news. 100, two year, well, I don't know what was it, 120 something million dollar extension with the rappers. Let me bring it up specifically with a player option in the, it was 115 with a player option in 28, 29. This was a fade of complete. The minute the trade happened, which is why I wasn't super stoked to talk about it. He ended up taking a decent amount less than it's his max. It's almost towered as if he might have made some extra income on the side in the last two years that made it easier for him to take a little bit less than the max and Toronto. I don't really have a ton of reactions to this. I think the Raptors are going to be really good this season when a lot of games be a dangerous playoff team, unless and until collie gets injured in the middle of the playoffs, like he always does. I will say it makes RJ Barrett a very interesting, inspiring contract slash contract extension case right now. Because if you bring him back and you do some other stuff like bring Jamal shed back on a decent, you know, deal like a little south of the mid-level exception starting next season, you're right at the first apron with spots to fill. If you do that and then you re-signed Jacobi Walter the next season, you're right at the second apron and probably over it if Kawaii picks up his player option, which 59 million dollars in a couple of years for a guy who's 35 or whatever, I would, I have to project these. I'm going to pick it up. Guys on RJ Barrett going forward as it as something either, you know, we'll see what an extension number might come in, a trade candidate, whatever, but that was my number one reaction. Like not surprised, obviously. Yeah. It's funny. I was thinking about this. Like this isn't, it's a vague echo of what they did in 2018, the first time they acquired Kawaii, right? Like the risk then was he might leave after a year and he did. But the risk reward play was we could be a contender or a champion. Oh wow, we won the championship, so it was worth it. This is a different version of it where he wants to be there oddly after walking away seven years ago at an age and an injury history with, you know, where there's a different kind of risk now. So it's a short term play with the loftiest of goals. That's what that's the analogy to 2018. There's some risk, but massive upside here. If you win a championship with him any time in the next two to three years, who cares what else you have to go through, you know, you're not going to have to pay him on the side because Uncle Dennis has been banned from the NBA and the scandal probably rules anything else out for Kawaii Leonard. So you're, you have more security this time around with him other than the specter as always of injuries, but he's also being reunited with Alex McKecney, the VP of player care and other various things and over Fox, baby, silver Fox. That was all due respect to other teams that have had Kawaii Leonard. His year with the Raptors was his, I think, best year in terms of managing his health and the conditions that he's had with his knee, et cetera. So like I think he couldn't be in better hands than he is right now with Alex McKecney and the Raptors. So they'll manage him through this and it's a three year bet on his health and availability. So a three year window to go for the title with Scotty Barnes, who's still need like 25, still developing already, you know, busting into, you know, start a superstar status. You've got a good young roster, a team that was already starting to break through without really an elite offensive focal point that Scotty Barnes could become himself, right? And so now Scotty Barnes becomes, and I think, I think a penis of this reason that Scotty Barnes becomes Scotty Pippin now. It's like he's the secondary wing who also can play both ways at an elite level. And he has now the luxury of having Kawaii Leonard next to him to take over a lot of crunch time minutes and crunch time opportunities to carry them at times. And when Kawaii's not available, you already know you have a formula to win around Scotty Barnes. I do think that's the challenge to an extent, right? You're going to have to toggle over the course of the season, knowing you're going to probably lose Kawaii for 20 to 25 games overall that you're going to have the Kawaii version or the Kawaii and Scotty version, and he just Scotty version. But they've already got an established identity with almost the entirely the same group. So I'm not that concerned about it. And that, which an identity that look totally fine in the playoffs when Brandon Grim went out in that series against the cabs, they didn't even have a manual quickly. So you toss in quickly. You toss in your two CMB Jacobi Walter with more confidence, like all of that, like I don't worry about those 20 to 25 games that Kawaii is going to miss. I do worry about the simple fact that he has not, and I will keep repeating this, completed a second round playoff series since 2020. And it's awesome that he's reunited with Alex McKecney, who is a genius. It's great that he had his last and best healthy year in Toronto with Alex McKecney overseeing his treatment. That was in 2019. Yeah. It's going to be 2027. I don't really care about what happened eight years ago. He's just injured all the time in the playoffs. Look, I want to be clear. This is a bet that I probably would have made if I were the Raptors because I have Brandon Grim. And as I play this out, my other likely outcomes are letting Brandon Grim walk for nothing, which isn't so enticing because yeah, I get cap space, but cap space in Toronto in a world where no free agents are really changing teams via cap space anymore is not that interesting. I could also trade Brandon Grim in some other kind of trade, but based on the trade that I made for Brandon Grim, the trade New Orleans made for Brandon Grim, that's not going to get me that much interesting stuff. So here I get a distressed, Kawai Leonard, who's a top eight NBA player when he's healthy and is obviously this is a unique set of circumstances by which I mean distressed. The opportunity cost is two first round graphics, which are really valuable, like unprotected in 31 and 33, a swap that is this year and two seconds, a little bit of uncertainty with what RJ Barrett's future is with the team that I might have to lose RJ Barrett or trade him for, you know, whatever I can get for him because of the finances. I think the opportunity, I just don't like this is not risk-free. This could end not badly for Toronto, but it can end with those two picks hurting a little bit more than you think with a little bit less postseason winning in the next two to three years than you're hoping for with Kawai and with Barrett out the door for, I'm not saying they're going to trade RJ Barrett, I have no idea, but with, let's say they do, they don't get as much for him as you think as you'd hope, like there is more of I think a risk here than the elation in Toronto and having Kawai back would make you think. All that said, if that's the opportunity cost, I'm still willing to roll the dice and do it. I just think there are dice here that have not been talked about enough. Yeah, but you figure that stuff out later, right? And I think that was kind of the case with acquiring Kawai the first time and various other bets that we've seen around the league. Like even Minnesota acquired Limello Ball earlier this summer was basically a, okay, we've lost our entire front court side from Rudy Gober. We'll figure out the rest later. Now figuring out the rest later, turned into Jonathan Kuminga, I'm not sure how that's going to pan out long term, but like, you know, Yannis to Miami, right? Well, we've lost all of our depth and a bunch of key players, but we'll figure out the rest later, get first, get the superstar. And I think that more often than not, that's the right bet. And I'm, what you're, you're right on the downside or at least the risk and the assets given up, especially the unprotected picks, but this is absolutely worth it. So the only thing I will say is Kawai's 35, Yannis is 31. Fairly close to 32, Lamello is 25. Yannis, both of them also have significant injury histories, and in Yannis's case, late season injury histories that are similar in terms of timing took a wise. But I just, you know, just, I think Toronto is going to be really good. I'm excited for the Raptors and they're going to win a lot of regular season games and be super dangerous in the playoffs. If they're healthy, I understand why they're a dark horse. Hey, they could win the East Kennedy. I just can't, can't, can't get there because of college injury history. All right, real quick, Steph Curry spoke this week. I think Anthony Slater had it at ESPN basically indicating not much going on with his contract extension talks. He's been eligible since late August to sign a max extension with the warriors and indicating kind of hinting, you know, like I got a lot of options. I could do the max. You didn't really say this outright, but there certainly was the implication like there's a world in which you could take less to facilitate designing of a free agent or something like that. And I'm just going to kind of wait and see and feel it out in the meantime. He's like, I expect us to win. I want to be a warrior for life. He's going to be a warrior for life. Just thought it was interesting that he maybe left the door open a little bit. What did you think about that? I think that if I'm going to read between the lines on the things he said to Slater about a looting deflexibility or whatever else or options and all this, I think what he's basically doing is leaving the door open, not for leaving, but for I'm willing to take less if it means we can get some other great young talent in here next summer. Like it seemed to me that it was mostly point of that direction, like stepping on very not necessarily young, and I'll think, well, or any younger than him. That's a lot of people. That's true. That's the NBA. Fair. Um, uh, he's, he has never in all his years there. And in every interview of the last couple of years, he's going, you know, slowly, slowly toward the horizon, has he ever left open the door or even suggested remotely that he might want to leave or chase rings somewhere else? And he has the luxury of having four rings and doesn't have to chase rings. He can retire now and be perfectly fine. He obviously wants to still win at a high level. He's been incredibly patient with the warriors throughout all the ups and downs in the last couple of years. They did go out and get Jimmy Butler. Like I know everybody wants to like criticize that didn't do anything. They went out and got like a top 15 to 20 player in Jimmy at the, at the moment that they got him and looked like world beaters for the first 35 games they had him and, and want to play off series and might have won the next one if not for Steph getting hurt. So like, I like, yes, it's true that Jimmy Butler is also in his mid 30s and is hurt right now. And we don't know what point he'll come back this season. But I think Steph has signaled throughout. I'm willing to like to still place his faith in the Warriors ability to get a guy. And if the opportunity is there, like I think what he's handing out here is he can hold off on the extension because maybe the extension he takes will be less. If it means they've got indications that they're getting somebody else and he wants that. So I, I don't think there's any, there's nothing negative, there's no negative signals or alarm bells or red flags or whatever coming from that interview. I think it's mostly positive. It didn't remind me of a pet peeve of mine, but I'll, we can get back to them. No, what's the pet peeve? That NBA Maxus make no goddamn sense. Oh, yeah. I mean, do you get more as you get older? Yes. When you, like every goldsberry had a great saying chart, he put up this week on Instagram. I don't know if it was on the ringer.com as well. But basically that like the vast majority of NBA players are much younger and the vast majority of players who are at the highest production levels are younger. And yet we have this structure where the guys with 10 plus years of experience get the biggest max, the 35% of the cap and then that goes up because you get raises. Why do we have raises in the NBA? I don't understand. I don't know. We don't need raises for guys who make 40, 50 million a year. So the max structure makes zero sense. You have advocated in the past sack for, you know, and I think this was more to do with like if you drafted a player and as he, as he gets up there in salary, have a situation that would apply to the Golden State Warriors and Steph Curry. Thanks in large part to David Conch, shout out, David Conch. I don't know why we had to drag you into this, but okay, because why not? Because why not? There's never a bad time. But you've mentioned it in concert with the idea of you drafted a player. I'm saying it just in terms of like any older player, especially if it's a guy who's already been with you for X number of years, you could do this where maybe you limit, like, have the salary for a guy who's over whatever, 33, 35. Have a max for those guys or have a max that's applied to the cap at least. And if he's spent X number of years with you and has a certain, you know, seniority or whatever that's accrued with that team, it could qualify him for this, this status where not all of it counts toward the cap. Or maybe it should just be a lower max. That's a really hard thing to argue for as the league. It's a really hard thing for the players association to accept. And they probably wouldn't. But it makes ultimate sense, if all these other measures that have been instituted over the decades in the, in the CBA are, and we can all say this, these are mostly measures to protect the owners of the GM's from themselves. This would be another one. And I think probably a pretty necessary one. And the upside for the players association would be this, because 51% of BRI always goes to the players in total. The money would then be shifted downward toward the younger players who actually produce the most. And yes, Steph is still like a top 10 top 15 player in the NBA, wherever you want to rank him. But in general, when you have this much tied up in Steph or, you know, Carl had any towns who were going to discuss, I think, and, you know, Yannis, others, it gets harder and harder. We all want, this is the bottom blank principle here. I should have led with this. We all want to see Steph, LeBron, Kevin Durant, Kawaii Leonard, any of the top stars of the last era who are aging up, who are getting close to the end. We want to see them on, on relevant teams. We want to see them still be able to contend. And part of the reason that it's hard to is because of their own salaries. And especially in a second apron era, anyway, the max does make no sense. The fact that we have multiple maxes for debt, various ages or years of service. And then on top of that, we have super maxes and the max changes based on which year you got your max. And then we have raises that complicate matters. It makes it that much harder to construct a decent roster around guys. All right. End of brand. Okay. A couple of things on this. Number one, I am not going to re-litigate what opportunities the Warriors pursued and what they missed, what they might have missed all that. I've done that in a million podcasts to pay her Steph with another star player. They did one with Jimmy Butler. Number two, I've heard some dribblings of positivity regarding a potential extension for Brandon Podgemsky. We'll see those dribblings, those in those kinds of intel tend to change when the wind blows one way or another. But I've said from the beginning, because they want to prioritize cap space, if somebody becomes available, then I would bet on it. If Podgemsky signs an extension, I bet on it being pretty close to his cap pulled, which is about $17 million. I've also heard some positive dribblings about Brandon Miller in a different market, but that's a different thing. And the last thing is, look, Denuggets are going to laugh at this. Everyone in Denver is going to laugh at this. I will be clear and say, I think Yokech is going to spend the rest of his current Denver because that's what he said he wants to do. If you just, if you don't think teams like the Warriors are planning for the potential of Nicole Yokech leaving Denver in free agency, you are wrong. Players are looking at it and saying, look, just in case, if it's a 1% chance, a 5% chance, a 10% chance, we have to be ready because like it or not, he hasn't signed his extension yet. And he's reaching a point on the timetable where like players generally just haven't done that. They haven't demured on signing an extension. They just take the money. He hasn't done it. That's the reality. I think he'll be a nugget. I think the nuggets will be pretty good this year, but a little below, obviously, the best teams in the last. But I'm just saying, let's take a quick break and we'll talk about one other extension case before we have some fun. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness. No stickiness. No residue. Maybe it's maybe lane. The other extension related news, much awaited. I've talked about Carly and the in town strain situation for a while now, reporting all over the place from Ian Begley from Somstraniah from Stefan Bondi that there has been a little bit of a snag, a stall, a stalemate, whatever S word you want to use in the contract extensions surrounding towns who has a player option next season for, I believe, $61 million that he can opt out of or the nicks can opt him out of mutually and sign an extension. He's on a $57 million kind of expiring contract now. None of this is surprising. It's a tricky case on a tricky team that just won the title and has an owner who actually don't think got enough shit for just coming out and saying, hey, we're never going to go over the second apron, even though we just won the championship and we have a team that really works together hard line in the sand, massive downgrade at backup center for Mitchell Robinson who's probably not going to be a backup anymore to Andre Drummond. Let's leave that aside. I don't know what to tell you, man, like, I've been projecting the nicks. I have a bunch of like estimates on salaries for guys like Josh Hart who's extension eligible for OG and an OB who will be extension eligible after the season. And obviously for Brunson who is do the super duper max that he did not take away when he did not wait long enough to take when he first had the opportunity to do so. And if the second apron really is a hard line in the sand, it's just gonna be, the math is gonna be tight in 2027-28 and 2028-29, tight but doable. If everybody other than Brunson takes a little bit of a haircut or a compromise. So like I just penciled in, 'cause you have to pencil in something, Howard, if you're projecting salaries on the team level. I just penciled in 2728. I penciled in, let's just say cats option number, 61 million, just for ease. Long term for him, I penciled in, let's say 55 million. 55 million a year. For heart, who's on a $20 million deal and then has a $22 million team option next season. I penciled in, let's say they rip up the team option and extend them and it's $25 million a year. For Annoblee, who has, where's Annoblee? 42 this year, 45, and then a player option for 48. I penciled in, let's say he takes a little bit of a discount, not saying it's true, but three years, 120, when his deals up, $40 million a year. And then you do various things like no Doos McBride, no Colette, and whatever. You can maybe sneak under the second, you can definitely sneak under the second apron in 2728. Maybe even in 28-29, depending on where it falls and what you do with like shamets, contractors, half guaranteed, and deal wars is not guaranteed. It's Alvarado's just half guaranteed. But every dollar really matters. And that's why this negotiation was gonna be, was gonna be tough. I like Cat was awesome in the playoffs. He's been awesome his entire career basically. I don't blame him for, you know, saying hey, I want as close to the max as I can get. I don't think he's getting the max. I don't know what the number is. I just penciled in 55 because I had to pencil in something, but I'm very curious to see how this goes 'cause I'm sure the defending NBA champions would like a little bit of certainty and internal calm as they begin their title defense. - Yeah, this is tough. This is really tough. You know what, it's, the irony is just other, you know, it's in another stratosphere here where for two decades, Jim Dolan did everything possible to absolutely torture the next fan base with one exception. Like he did everything else terribly. But the one thing you could never fault him for, the one thing was that he would spend whatever it took. Now, spending whatever it took made them basically like a 35 win team most of the time and with all kinds of other crazy awful things going on. But nevertheless, you never had to worry about whether or not he would spend. And this includes during the entire luxury tax era and the more punitive tax and repeated whatever. Like he has never been afraid to spend but the second apron is a different thing. And I certainly understand logically, whether you're an owner or a GM that you don't want to hamstring yourself because the second apron takes away all these tools to build your roster or to massage your roster if you have an injury or a guy ages out or whatever. You need to replace somebody. It's hard. I get not wanting to be in it. But the one time you should be in it or be willing to be in it is if you've got a championship level team or in this case, the actual defending fucking champions. Letting Mitchell Robinson walk I think was a mistake and drawing that line in the sand now. The thing I'm wondering about, I'm giving Dolan, like at least this little bit of wiggle room. Was that just an edict for this summer which costs the Mitchell Robinson or is it in perpetuity? 'Cause if it's in perpetuity, this team is going to be taken apart bit by bit unless, as you just went through the math, unless OG Enanobi, Michele Bridges and Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart are all willing and chronicly towns are all willing to take less than they believe they're worth. Pat Riley always talked about the disease of more. You win and everybody wants more, more money, more shots, more attention, whatever, like that's always the one thing you worry about, not just with the next, with any championship team, but it's the money part that is front and center here right now and, you know, Kat is an interesting personality. Like I don't know how he's going to react to, you know, feeling like he got short shrift if that's the case. You know, he's been really important to this team. He had a phenomenal finals for the most part. I mean, there were times last season people have already forgotten, but there were times last season where it seemed like things weren't going so well where he wasn't really clicking with Mike Brown and his offense and all this and all the same old questions were coming up, but they won the freaking championship and all these guys deserve to not only defend it, but to be together for as long as possible. So, I don't know where this goes, but I think these are, it's at least a little bit of a warning sign that they can't come to terms with him yet and they have bigger hurdles to clear as this goes on. - I'm not shocked and I'm not worried. I mentioned I penciled in 55, like as the average per year deal, just to pencil something in. Like to be clear, his max according to Bobby Marx, if he becomes a free agent after the season, would be four years, 276 million. That's almost $70 million a year, average value, it started about 62 or 63, depending on where the cat comes in. So 55 is like, if you're ducking the second apron, that's a big, big difference. Heart, I told you I penciled in 25. He's on a $21 million deal now and then I said, I think he's the team option for like, what is it? 22.4. That's gonna be an interesting one because if you talk to people around the league about Josh Hart, some people will say 25 and I've had these conversations. Some people would say 25, that's a lot for Josh Hart. He's kind of the fit starter, three-point shot comes and goes. People don't guard him, they put their centers on him, it messes up their spacing, blah, blah, blah. Then he talked to people like, well, Siddiq Bay just signed for like 18 a year and Najimarshall signed for 18 a year. And yeah, some of those, some of those contracts in the 20 to 25 to 30 range become dicey, we've seen with Jill and Suggs and Christian Brown, et cetera. I don't know if I want to, you know, whatever. But like, yeah, Josh Hart's worth more than the Siddiq Bay's and Najimarshall. Certainly, his playmaking, his defense, his unique fit within this team. I think that's actually a fair number. Any final thoughts on the New York Knicks who I will, I will probably pick to make the finals again 'cause I'm a believer. I'm a believer, Howard Beck, I'm a believer in what I saw in a team that locked in to the best version of itself and stayed there for a month straight as they decimated the league. They found that exact, right, perfect balance of democratic, high-flying ball movement pace and then when it needed to be, it's the Jill and Brunson show down the stretch of games. Just they alternated beautifully between Brunson as the conductor and the guy starts and ends possessions and just some of those, and then they could flip into, some of those ball movement possessions that look like the 2014 Spurs and then they could flip into, we're just gonna push the ball down your throat with Josh Hart leading the break after events. They just found the exact right balance of all of their identities combining it to one like meta identity, I'm a believer. I'm a believer. - I'm a believer, but I'm also a realist with the idea that in this era of the NBA, nobody repeats and so I just don't expect anybody to repeat anymore. So if I pick against them, it's not even gonna be an indictment of the next. It's more of just a, I don't expect continuity in this league anymore or the ability to repeat. It's hard and I was looking this up the other day for a different show, but Brunson, Bridges and Heart are all in the top seven in minutes over the last three seasons, and Brunson in particular is just carried such a heavy load for them. I do worry about just kind of the attrition factor here as well, but we'll see, nothing will surprise me. They make finals as that's a perfectly reasonable prediction, but there's a lot of good teams in the east, too. - I will say they won the championship with minimal postseason stress, and in some cases minimal postseason minutes stress because so many of the games are blowouts in the middle two rounds. - Sure. - None of them are old. They now have a lot of experience playing together. The bench is a little uncertain, and obviously everyone is watching the Duce McBride situation to see, does he get extended, does he get traded, is he going to be on this team for the financial stuff that we're talking about. There's the drumming situation, but between Clarkson, Avarado, Shamit, Diora, Kolek, they got probably enough to get through the regular season, and hopefully not overdo it because they know what they are, and even their floor as a regular season team given just like average health should be safe from any, like, oh, are we in danger of not being in the top four, five in the east and slipping into the play, and as deep as these days. I liked the next, let's do some other fun stuff. I said part of our homework was to, we're gonna start picking awards. I already had my most improved player, picks with Motikiel a few weeks ago. I haven't done any. We're gonna do two today. We're gonna do Coach of the Year and six man of the year. I wanna start with Coach of the Year. I didn't ask you to make a full ballot. I just asked you to make a pick. I don't know what you did. I don't know how many people you considered. I consider just about every goddamn coach in the league because the award is so weird. Howardback, your prediction for the 2026, 2027 coach of the year. And some of you, take us through your thought process a bit. - All right, so I had 11 guys that I narrowed it down to, and there was like eight others that I considered. Coach of the Year, we know this goes. Usually it's gonna be somebody whose team exceeded expectations, or if they had a team with less talent, we didn't really see it, it was gonna pop. Degree of difficulty, if they'd like a young roster, a challenging roster, egos, whatever to manage, all that kind of stuff. Occasionally it's the coach of a great talented team that's already established, and they actually match or exceed expectations, but usually it's exceeding expectations. The other thing I kind of looked up out of curiosity, it's pretty much minimum 46 wins. Like more and more likely high 40s to 50s. If you're anywhere below 46, very, very hard to do. Doc Rivers, last one, 41 wins back in 1992. - So no matter how good of a job they do, you aren't disqualifying. Twamos, Isolo, Jordi Fernandez, other guys that you can-- - Doc Christie. - All right, how it settled down. It's not ridiculous here. Guys who, even if their teams are young and frisky and exceed their upside are probably gonna be below that level of win. - Yeah, especially when we're predicting it. It's not even predicting my own ballot. It's like this is just the reality what the award is. Also, nobody ever repeats in this one. And you rarely even see a guy get it twice in a two, three, or five years span. So no Mozilla, no Acunstead, no Dagnol, no Mike Brown. So you had assigned me to do three. - I did. I forgot my own assignment. I actually already forgot who I picked for most of them. Play her to be completely honest with you. Do you want just my top one? We're gonna go back to-- - No, go three, go three, two, one, suspense. Build the suspense. - All right, number three on the fictional way too early ballot. Eric's supposed to row the Miami Heat. - Never won it, famously. - Has never won it. He's-- - And you're still hating on him, putting him on third, you're a Spohator. That's fine. It was number two. - He did share the Coaches Association inaugural version of their Coaches of the Year Award with Mike Dantoni back in 2017. But he's never won the one voted on by the media. You won number two. - Yes. - And number two, from the Utah Jazz, Will Hardy. - He's gonna be, he's gonna be a trendy pick. He's gonna be a trendy pick. - I'm afraid that my top pick is actually going to be stupidly trendy, but it was so obvious that I just, I had to. Darko Ryakovich of the Toronto Raptors. No, not that obvious. Not that trendy. No, I'm upset because I also picked Darko Ryakovich. He's my predict to coach in the year. Here's what he has going against him. It's, and Spoh actually has the same thing going against him is that if the Raptors exceed expectations, how much of the credit is given to Kawaii Leonard is the new player edition, Slash Yonis, as the new player edition. But I also think the Raptors flew so under the radar last year. - Yes. - The casual fans and even voted, casual voters were like, "Oh, wait, the Raptors are in the playoffs." What, what, what a, Jacobi, what, Jacobi Walter? This is his name, who is Jamal? Sheed, shed, shed is pronounced shed, that if they won like 52 games this year, there would just be, everybody would get a lot of credit, including Darko Ryakovich. And I can see them winning almost that amount of games. Although 52 is gonna be a lot this year given the fact that the dregs of the league are gonna be less dregsy because of the tanking roles. I didn't even follow my own assignment to do a top three, but I'll do one now anyway. First of all, I do think it's sad and an indictment on how this award is voted on, that you just fast forwarded past and justifiably so, given history. Like you just qualified Kenny Ackinson, who won the award two seasons ago. You just qualified Mark Dagnott, who won the award three seasons ago, who may again sit atop the team with the best record in the year. - The purposes of the exercise as a qualify. I won't vote for them next April. - No, Howard Beck is announced. He will not be voting from Mark Dagnott for a coach of the year. Like Mitch Johnson probably won't even be considered 'cause the spurs are already too good. They already made the finals. - He was the top of my ballot last season. I voted for him number one, anyway. - Mike Brown, you mentioned he won it four seasons ago on a different team. By the way, only the Kings. Just another underrated subplot of Kings and Competence that I was reminded of when I was doing this exercise. Like in my head I was like, it's not fair to like Mike Brown, Nick's win the championship. He didn't win coach of the year last year. Now there are champions. The way this award is no doubt they'd have to win like 75 games for him to win it this year. Poor guy, he's not gonna win. Oh, he won coach of the year for the Kings and they fired his ass. What a stupid team, stupid ass team. JB Bicker staff has come close multiple years. The pistons are probably like too good now. Like if they won 60 games, like all the pistons just did what they do again or 58 games. So I came down to Darko Ryakovich, Eric Spolstra. I wanted to put Esolo in there 'cause I'm kinda high on the Grizzlies, but they're not gonna win enough games. And I guess if you forced me to pick a third one, I would pick. I think I might say JJ Reddick. 'Cause I think the Lakers are gonna win a lot of games this year. They've totally revamped their team. He tends to squeeze like a functional defense out of parts that don't look like they should add up to a functional defense. He's got some interesting rotation questions to answer in terms of like who starts a power forward. What's the bench rotation? Is Cam Carr ready for minutes off the bench? Who's the backup five? How does that all work? So I would say him. I'm just gonna say some other names just to say them, okay? - Yeah. - Oh, another guy who's probably, whose team has probably been too good. Eme Odoca's window to win this award probably close, like oh, so what? The Rockets 150, whatever games. That's what they did. - He and JJ were both on my longer list. - Will Hardy you mentioned. Quinn Snyder, my pick last year, Jinx Tim and the Hawks for the first 55 games of the season, so I'm staying away from him. Charles Lee, I think the Hornets will be a little bit worse in terms of wins this year, but they're set up long term to go like angbusters and that last year was kind of the Charles Lee year. Mozilla won it last year. Nick Nurse. If I had, if I just feel like the Sixers are gonna be weird. And that doesn't mean I don't think they're gonna be good. They're gonna be a playoff team and maybe a damn good playoff team. And if they are, if they win 50 to 55 games, I think he's gonna be right at the top of the list. I just think the injuries and the lineup uncertainty, which should actually argue in his favor for like cobbling it all together, it's just gonna be funky. Sean Sweeney, new coach factor. I don't think the magic are gonna win like that many more games or look that different, but perhaps I'm wrong. Rick Carlisle, retroactive credit for the Pacers finals run. If the Pacers turn into an elite team again, Jordan not almost won it last year. I just see Phoenix kind of being the same. Chris Finch just never gets enough love for this. Ty Lue, charity votes, like pity votes, like hey, here's some pity votes for you in this situation. And also pity votes, Mike and Ori, like hey, we'd like you to get a multi year contract, like an adult coach, like a grown up coach and a grown up league, those are my other names. I will go with Darko Rackovich as well. Let's take another break and then we'll do a tough award to project Howard Beck because part of picking six man of the year is figuring out if certain players that you'd like to pick are actually gonna be eligible for six man of the year or end up starting too many games to be eligible. There's some tricky cases that will do that when we come back. Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Maybe it's Mavily. Okay, your homework, which I actually remember and did myself for six man of the year was much like I do for most improved. Pick a chalky six man of the year candidate that you would pick to win and pick an under the radar six man of the year candidate that like a four different variables flipped right? You could actually see them being in the proverbial conversation which usually means you finish like eighth but you're in the conversation. I have a couple candidates for that too but I will let you lead with your chalky six minute of your pick. My chalky pick, you know, it's funny 'cause I did not look up like the odds or anything and I have to imagine he's very high in these, he's gonna, I would imagine a popular pick but DeMar de Rosen, now of the Denver Nuggets, feels like a very chalky pick to me. Nuggets are gonna be almost, I don't wanna say top four team in the West automatically because they've lost some stuff and the West is tough but they're like a 50 win team as long as Yokech is Yokech. That makes DeMar de Rosen at least relevant 'cause the one rule I do for six man, you have to be on a good team. Like you can't be on a bad team. If you're a bad team, being a great six man is irrelevant. They're gonna be a good team, good to great team. He's presumably coming off the bench for the first time, full time in his career. 18th year in league, he's a pro's pro. I think it's an easy transition for him. He can basically back up four positions. He can handle the ball as a kind of de facto point something. We like six men who can score traditionally. He can still score. 18 points of game last season for a god awful team. Still eat in the mid range. Very good pass and playmaker. This is weird. His effective field goal percentage the last seven years is actually higher than it was in his first 10. He's gotten better with age and he's durable as hell. So I think DeMar de Rosen is almost an easy pick for six man of the year at this stage. - Do you consider yourself a pro's pro, Howard? - Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. - Okay. Like DeMar, I am a veteran who's far closer to the end of the beginning with the grades to show for it. - Good for you. I'm not often shocked on my own podcasts these days anymore, Howard Beck, but this pick legitimately shocked me. - Really? - I don't even have DeMar de Rosen's name written down on my long list of any type of candidate. For this award and you're right that when he wins it that I would be blowing away And he did average 18 points a game 22 the year before that 24 the year before that He's never come off the bench really in his career ever in his career I mean he has like it as a rookie he came off the bench 12 times whatever And actually I'm looking at it nonsense then every single appearance since his rookie year is a start So I and he's gonna be on a good team. I Should have had him on the list. I just He hasn't played on a good team In quite a while, I'm really worried about his defensive limitations obviously his age and how he fits with Jamal Murray So I did not even have him by the way, I'm looking at my bookshelf because I want I never talked about it I wanted to have him on he wrote quite a good book about his life and his career Demar de Rosen did called above the noise highly recommended to to fans It's really about it on the real ones pod a couple years ago when it came out I see I'm too late to do the book the booktor if Demar if you want to do like a bump your sales up two years later Book to our appearance. I'm around It's a good pick. That's a good pick. I'm gonna go way chalkier than that I'm gonna go with Dylan Harper Because I just think Dylan Harper is incredible. I think he is still penciled in as a reserve as long as Deer and Fox is there I think everyone just gonna have to be okay with that including people like me who would like to see Dylan Harper unleashed for like 38 minutes A game to see how many points and he would score and how many of ridiculous moves he would pull off I will go with Dylan Harper. Would you like to hear some other names that I considered in the chalky category? Yeah, but can I can I a quick question on your Dylan Harper pick as I considered him heavily We had this discussion on I'm trying to remember if it was the pod we did with Jason Concepts You know the one with Tyler Parker which hasn't dropped yet But we joked about the the spurs are gonna have to have the speech The you know the the the mono genobly speech where they you know put a big thing up on the wall and they show his photo and his career stats And whatever and all the rings and the championships to try to convince Dylan Harper to be patient and do this or Are they flipping this around and making that speech to Deer and Fox where they decide don't know we Dylan Harper's got to be the starter now And so I I steer away from the spurs because I actually couldn't decide I mean, I think Deer and Fox is probably starting But I actually think there's an interesting conversation there from now until the moment when they eventually flip whenever that happens Whether it's this season or a year from now, and so I kind of struggle with that went a little bit and I put it to the side There certainly is an interesting conversation. I Considered it and picked Dylan Harper anyway It's certainly possible that he ends up being ineligible. I just I'm going with inertia and Deer and Fox's stance the other I mean, this is going to if he does come off the bench for a majority of his his appearances and is considered a six man This could be like an absolutely loaded field of six men even with Nas read graduating out and into a starting rule AJ Mitchell is the other obvious one assuming again that case and Wallace is the starter there along with J Dub the two centers and Shay Who knows what could happen like one injury and all of a sudden AJ Mitchell starts and never never gives up the position again Peyton Pritchard is mostly being around when you read people projecting Boston's rotation Penciling him in as a starter and I get that because they need secondary ball handling around Tatum and with Paul George being less of that kind of player as he ages Derek White still around I can see a world where Peyton Pritchard comes off the bench again for a good part of the season. I don't know what's going to happen there. I would assume new Is just a stud off the bench again could start if the cominging experiment goes bad Drew holiday is just Drew holiday awesome basketball player currently slated to come off the bench I'd put him at the top of a list of a bunch of candidates with the blazers including time lord I think Tim Hardaway junior who had a case last year is going to be a Force off the bench for Miami danis Jenkins For Detroit still in need of a secondary ball handler that's him. He was awesome last year And I think again Another case of are they going to start at some point and are they going to start too many games Totally different kind of candidate just look out for columnary boils Like I just can't tell you how excited I am for columnary boils in year two I've already mentioned that Wouldn't shock me if the raptors have a come to Jesus moment about is he actually our starting center Are we going to lean into like total switchability and a little bit of small ball and that lineups with him and Scotty And no hurdle actually rebounded quite well. That's the number one. I think rebounding and rim protections What you worry about not playing portal, but I would go Dylan Harper. Okay. That's my list of chalky guys Who is your under the radar wild just for fun six-maned year candidate? I mean you mentioned a couple of them I wrote at a J Mitchell because I'm not sure if it like is there six-man A J Mitchell is it is it Caruso is it like there's a lot like the that's still such a deep bench that I feel I think votes away from each other I think when you consider minutes and how they protect Caruso that way And just I just think a J Mitchell's way better than Jared McCain or it will do more than Jared McCain I think I get your point But I just think Caruso never plays enough to really get consideration. Yeah Kicked around a bunch of others. I mentioned Dennis Jenkins is on my deeper list I ultimately When you set out of the radar I would I try to follow your instructions But you know I sometimes get a little over overly creative here. Well my radar is broken Howard my radar People would look at my radar system and be like you You have issues with what is you consider under your radar? Maybe my radar covers so much that nothing is under it or it's just malfunctioning I hope I don't knock you out of your chair with this one Because any team with LeBron James on it is I think a going to win a lot of games and be get a lot of attention Is it crazy to think there's a contagious called well pope revival? Oh, I thought you were going to say am for any Simon's he would be my pick of sixers bench players Just because I think he'll score and handle it a lot more. Yeah I thought about him. I even thought about doing wait But I've won with today. It's called a vote. I'm not going to do the jingle jingle needs about a six-month waiting period before I do it again My issue with Simon's or anybody on the sixers is I just think even with ambide sitting out this game LeBron sitting out that game They just have maxi and jalen brown or such ironman like on ball forces that play like every game That if you know one of those guys in beta LeBron is also playing I just don't know how many how many stats are going to be available and then you throw an edge comb was also an ironman I just don't know how many numbers are going to be available. I'm going to get real wild with you For my pick. Well, do you want to say any other nominees for this? The other one I was going to mention if you had just knocked KCP off off the deck and said no give me something better I was going to actually go with culinary boils who you've already mentioned But he was he was my other like I have how far off the radar. He is I mean, he's gonna he's gonna smash your fucking radar against the backboard. Yeah. No, he's awesome. I love him If he doesn't end up becoming the starter, I think he's a great candidate for this Who else? I'm gonna go wild my pick For under the radar six man of the year candidate is Sam Merrill And I picked Sam Merrill because I don't even know how many points The average last year probably was not very enough enough to be in consideration for this award I'm gonna guess like eight points. No 13 a game last year 42% on threes on seven per game or like 10 per 36 minutes, whatever it is just shoots a shits on a threes Completely changes the whole look and feel of the Cavaliers whenever he enters the game they're a little bit Thin on the bench. It's it's like him and I think Jail and Tyson is another guy Considered actually for this award. Well, sometimes I forget that you know We'll see if Malik Thomas gives them any any minutes. I kind of like Proctor and Craig Porter Jr But Candy Ackinson doesn't seem like a much sometimes forget Mario. His ownia is involved again I'm just delighted as an adjacent Croatian to have Mario. His ownia back in my life um But I just think Sam Merrill is gonna get a lot of playing time He meshes super well with Donovan Mitchell, but pretty much anybody because he's just a roving shooter And there I could see the Watson plus two bigs combo Being a little shaky offensively for a good chunk of the season and Candy Ackinson just hitting the Sam Merrill Lucen our spacing button really hard and it like wake up and I know Sam Merrill is averaging 15 a game and the Cavs are plus 12 per 100 possessions with him on the floor under the radar candidate My other candidate for jail in Tyson Tray Jones the bulls won't be good enough Stephen Adams probably won't play enough, but boy does he revolutionize the rockets Colin Gillespie unless he starts over jail in green at some point I you know Memphis just probably has too many guys But I think everyone has just kind of forgotten that Jeremy Grant is on the Grizzlies and Whatever you think of Jeremy Grant and his apparent allergy to remounding and his kind of step back in defense since his peak in Denver The guy can score he scores like 28 games shoots three as well. I don't know if he's good I have no idea if he's gonna come off the bench or start For the Grizzlies I haven't penciled in as a backup. He's an interesting name And my other sneaky under the radar one that I almost picked was Nemius Keta Who is the most improved player candidate for the Celtics last year And I think we'll probably slide in as Mitchell Robinson's backup I like the idea of starting Mitchell Robinson A because he's better than Nemius Keta and B You you miss out on the hack a Mitch strategy that way into because they won't be in the bonus as much with him on the floor So those are my what do you think of my candidates? like those. Um, there were a couple others I thought you might mention, Reed Shepard. I thought the rockets have him probably eastern a couple other guys, Steven Adams. I just think Adams is the most impactful of those guys. But yeah, I mean, Reed Shepard could get back in this conversation, for sure. You're high on the Lakers. What about Colin Sexton? I just don't think he'll school. I just, uh, he's a, he's a sort of central casting six minute year guy. I'm just between Reeves and Luca. I, someone out there is going to be above him in the ball handling hierarchy a lot, but yeah, he's a good candidate too. Um, I'm surprised you didn't mention your guy, Pell Larson, or Bobby Portis, like the Miami guys I couldn't quite figure out. I threw both of them on the longer list. I mentioned Tim Hardaway, Jr. I think of all their bench guys going to be more of a classic six minute year candidate than Pell Larson, who I love and I'm still not sure I love that deal, but I like him, uh, as a player. And then Terrence Shannon was the other one I had thrown down the wolves bench. I just other, but see, you can only have one guy. You can't have two guys. Dude, it's not seven to man in the year. So I know, and I probably too, but everybody else, but what, but what if it's a Jaden McDaniels at the four because they don't trust Cumminga and I was a starter? That was the way I was kind of looking at them. Very possible. I, I like, I'm excited for Terrence Shannon, Jr. So I respect it. Okay, a couple of other pieces of business before we leave. Uh, the Lakers announced today that their legendary incredible public address amounts, an ounce or iconic, iconic voice Lawrence Tanter has passed away. Um, I, like, I don't think minimalism has ever been more welcome and more effective in NBA artistry than Lawrence Tanter made it for the Lakers. Somehow the minimalist baritone meshed with the Hollywood glitziest franchise in the NBA perfectly. His voice always said to me, it, first of all, it's classic and it sounds great. And I don't have to do anymore to make the Lakers look good and sound good because my voice is awesome. And the rest of the work is being done for me. I'm not going to be a big part of the show. I'm just going to talk like I talk and that's actually going to mesh perfectly. And it did, uh, and I don't even know, I don't know how they, I mean, obviously it's a, it's a PA announcement that we're placing them. But the whole looking sound of the game and the starting intros is going to take a lot to get used to. You covered the Lakers for a long time. You probably know the words much better than I do. Um, yeah. Any thoughts, memories? Uh, truly sad about this one. We knew he wasn't in good health and when I saw the news this morning, I, it's like, I wasn't surprised. This felt like it was coming, but I'll, but still it's just still, it hit hard. Um, just like, just a wonderful dude, just a great guy to be around and every time I've been back there since I left L.A. 20 something years ago, um, he's one of the first people I would seek out in the checker and press room to just go say hello to and get a nice warm hello. There aren't that many people left organizationally. It's basically him and Jeanne bus at this stage, um, maybe a few security cards that that what used to be called staple center. You said it like he was, I feel like I would describe him as a as a P.A. Answer as like old school in the best way possible. He wasn't a shatter. He wasn't a cheerleader. It wasn't a, he had no look at me signature call. It wasn't about him. He just did the job and the reason you noticed him at all is because he was distinctive and original without trying to be, right? And some of that is just the, the natural God-given baritone that he has and the way he deployed it. He was also, if folks don't know this, he was a DJ on, on jazz radio, which like duh. Of course he was like with that voice and that delivery, how could he be anything other than the guy delivering like smooth jazz, you know, that seven in the morning or something, right? Like, um, it just, he made it seem effortless. There are, there isn't, you know, somewhat signature call in his, his Laker Girls call, which everybody always gravitates toward because it's almost humorous. But what I loved about him was that you could tell the tenor of the game by the tenor of LT's voice. So he didn't have to shout and he didn't have to like, you know, deride the opposition of some P.A. guys, modern P.A. guys sometimes do with it. There's a little sneer in there sometimes, but he would do this. If Kobe has scored several in a row, it's going to be, you know, the first time it's like Kobe Bryant. And the next time might be Kobe Bryant, like you can hear like, oh my god, he's on a run just by the way he would deliver each successive call. And then the flip of a side of this is when he did have to deal with the opposition being on a roll. Jay and Danday and I joke about this one all the time because I'll never forget this. It was my early years on the Laker beat. The jazz are just kicking the shed out of them and Carmelone's going off. And the first time he scores, it might be Carmelone. And then the second time he scores, it's Carmelone. And then by like the fifth basket in a row or in a short span, it's Carmelone. And it's almost like this somebody like the subtle the subtext there is like somebody please guard this motherfucker like somebody do something like this guy. And it was so subtle, but it's there. And I love the way he did it. I love the way he carried himself and just an all-around great human being. I said this on social media earlier just class act from start to finish. He will be missed and I will never forget the time that for whatever reason the Lakers did not provide him transportation to a preseason game in Baker's Field, which is several hours from Los Angeles. And so he hitched a ride with me in my tiny little Honda Civic hatchback. LT is like, I don't know, six six six sevens. He's a big he's a tall dude. Him folding himself into the passenger seat of my little Honda Civic SI hatchback was something. I can't remember what we talked about on that very long drive back and forth, but love that I got to spend time around and back in the day. So rest in peace, LT. I also have a Honda Civic. Good car. Good car. On Lawrence Tanter, you know, his voice is cool in that smooth like almost like Billy D Williams kind of way that you just either have it or you don't. We don't. He does. And I think he had such a self-awareness of the Lakers are cool. And the Lakers as a basketball team during Showtime as the Laker girl team as Jerry bus up in the club with all the celebrities and the women are cool in very loud and overt ways. And Lawrence Tanter knew he was cool in a very subtle sonorous way. And that's all the cool that the Lakers needed because they had the overt glitzy kind of cool he gave them the other kind of cool. And look, I'm not a name of names. Some of these PA announcers today their call of a home three pointer is like 15 seconds long and still going while like the other team comes and scores a basket just like it doesn't it's the second quarter of a game in December. Let's chill out a little bit. By the way, one of my career highlights was when NBA today with Michael Andrews debuted the very first episode was me Chenet Perk and RJ and Malika obviously and one of the gimmicks they had for the first episode. We were considered the core of the team. It's not worked out for one member of that core because I remember which one is that there anymore. But one of the gimmicks they had was they got Lawrence Tanter to come in studio that day and introduce us like the starting five. So it was like from the University of Arizona at six seven this this guy played whatever years in the NBA Richard and then they got to me and that's of course I'm five 11 three quarters and did not play in the NBA. So we had to come up with things to say about me but having Lawrence Tanter introduce me all time career highlight. That is that is amazing. Can I give you one more quick anecdote from Adonde because he posted this on Instagram earlier. Yes. So Adonde was doing a radio interview. I think he was when he was doing something for NPR and so he interviewed LT about LT about you know the job in all the years and so he's Adonde writes I started by asking him how he would announce he would announce his own name. He wouldn't do it quote that's a little too self-indulging he said. I'm not worthy of that kind of acumen. I mean like that's like that's LT like he was so happy in his role and understood his role and like even for the sake of a radio interview where it's like oh how would you announce your own name like he's just not going to do it. It's about the players. It's about the team. It's about the Lakers. It was never look at me. I you know I don't Michael Chusky at the Garden by the way. Great. Alt all timeer and the way he announced his thing is basket the who scored the basket and what's the score of the game and he does it so fast like like Carmelo Anthony Nick 76 74. Right and he does have a little bit more flourish maybe you know the Carmelo Anthony like there's a flourish there but again it's not about him and he's not trying to rile the crowd or anything else like they've too many of these PA guys that they could become cheerleaders and it's a different version and I sound like a fucking grumpy old man so be it. I just always appreciate the way that LT and Michael Chusky have done the job and you know it's too much to ask for anybody else to try to replicate that now in the era that we're in and I certainly do not envy whoever the Lakers have tapped and I don't even know I'm sure it's out there somewhere but I don't even know if they've tapped to replace him but Mike of course some big shoes. Mike of course does some voice work for the hoop collective podcast which makes me very jealous because I know Mike is the listener of this show too and he's an awesome awesome dude and like amazing at his job. And I'm glad you brought up his name 'cause also, yes, similarly like we're not to show. Our voices are awesome and they do the work for us. Last thing I wanna shout out Nick Batum who in a very moving nine minute video this week announced his retirement from basketball and announced his retirement on the same day to the day that his father passed away while playing basketball at a game that Nick Batum was at as a kid and he picked the day very intentionally. Just, he's been on this podcast before played for a bunch of teams. I think people we mostly know him as a blazer but he went to Charlotte and bounced around a little bit after that Philly, Clippers, et cetera. All like an awesome, awesome role player and just a super beloved teammate. Always great to see Nick on the road and you would always catch up and say hello and a couple of other notes. When Chris Ryan and I did our draft last year with favorite teams to not make the NBA finals, I think it was the 14, 15 blazers were on my list. The team that just sort of magically coalesced into more than the some of its parts before West Matthews towards Achilles. Nick Batum was like an apex glue guy at that point in his career point number two. Did you see a court of gold on Netflix to dock about the 2024 Olympics? - No, I still have that watch. - Highly highly recommended and one of the absolute best moments of it is they're in the locker room with team. There's an episode devoted to the French team. Obviously, Wembee is the highlight of that but they're in the locker room with the French team at half time of the game. I don't remember which one it was and they're not playing well. And Nick Batum is the veteran leader of the team, a team that I think he probably if you asked him like what team that you played on means the most to you as a team. I think you would say the French national team. You see a side of him in this documentary that you just have not seen at any point in the NBA where he is lighting up the team. Not in like a, he's just sitting at his locker kind of raising his voice and telling it like it is that they're playing like crap. And then he did say whoa, Nick Batum's getting serious. Number three, Howard Beck. Nick Batum famously, one of the only players in NBA history with a five by five game. Five points, five assists, five rebounds, five blocks and five steals all in the same game. Yeah, 11 points, five rebounds, 10 assists, five blocks and five steals in a 2012 game against the New Orleans Cornets. Howard Beck, trivia time. I'm putting you on the spot in recorded statistical history. Remember the NBA did not track blocks and maybe not even steals until like after built in the 70s at some point, they start tracking it. So no built, Russell, no built, et cetera. So in that recorded history, there have been 24 five by five games. Nick Batum has one, there is one player with six by far the all time lead in five by five games. Howard Beck, I'll give you three guesses. Can you guess who that player is? My first guess would be Andre Kirillinko. He is second all time with three five by five games. Whew, the number of guys who could actually get, I mean, the five blocks, five steals part of it. In fact, I'm looking at it now. I think of these 24 games. And again, like even part of Kareem's career is not covered here. I think there are only three guys on the list with more than one. Kirillinko, this player that I'm trying to get you to guess who has six and then one other player has two. Is it a Kima Lajuan? A Kima Lajuan, ding, ding, ding, ding. Six, five by five games, the all time lead. The other player with the one with two is probably gonna break this record 'cause it's Victor Wembejama already has two. The most unlikely one, I gotta go back and watch this game. Jamal Tinsley had five blocks and six steals as a Pacer for in a doubt, it's double overtime. In fact, of these 24 games, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven have gone into overtime. Three of those have gone into double overtime. But still, how is Jamal Tinsley getting six walks in a game? That's a bizarre one, but Nick Batum has one and Wembejama has two. And congratulations, you win nothing, forgetting how Kima Lajuan on the second guess. Does Kevin Durant ever done it? Kevin Durant, I'll just, Karim won, Batum won, Marcus can be won, Derek Coleman got up five blocks once, Anthony Davis just won, Vlad A. D. Vach won, Dr. J has won, George Garvin, Dreymond Green only won, George Johnson won, Yusuf Nurkich, relatively recently got won. Nurkich, 2019. The admiral has won Tinsley and then two for Wembejama. I bet Wembejama is going to crack double figures in this. All right, Howard Beck, what did we got coming up from you? You wrote a piece about ownership and the soul of the NBA recently. What else have we got coming? We do have a new real one spot up now with special cameo from the one and only Jason Concepcion joining Logan and me to talk about hot takes. We all had one hot take for every team in the NBA. That's the first part of our kind of preview, pre-training camp preview. And we've got more coming, I think it's a two-parter with Tyler Parker in which we went best and worst-case scenarios for all 30 teams. So those are a lot of fun. So those are both coming on the ringer NBA show channel. - So like what's the worst-case scenario for the Kings? - That was tough. That was like the best-case scenario, like 14th in the West and worst-case 15th in the West. So you're being like a Tyler Parker is a hilarious guy. Like I could see worst-case scenario like relegation or something O and 82, but you guys kept it serious and were like, no, worst-case scenarios, they're 15th. - Mostly. We may have gone off the rails here and there, but yeah, some of those were harder to discern than others. And I'll have some more stuff coming at the ringer.com sometime in the next couple of weeks. - Howard Beck, thank you, you're our pro's pro. We will see you next time. Thank you, sir. - Thank you, Zach. - All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lo Show and for us this week, we'll be back next week as usual. Thanks to Howard Beck for his time. Thanks as always to Mike Billy and Jonathan on production. They're the best. Thanks to you all for listening to and/or watching the Zach Lo Show. We'll be back next week. - 21 are over and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas, Dr. Casino or 18 and over and president in DC or Wyoming. 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