Consumer research is an art | Julia Ismalkowa @ Izmalkowa [S02, #13]

I don't think there is a difference between 85 and 95 and 90. People only prefer to shade between 0 and 90. At the top there is only room for one, right? I believe in India 80% of celebrity usage and advertising that I see is not what's creating is easy. What to create is a million dollar question. Hi, you're listening to Marketing with Bali in which I speak to Marketing gurus. Together we decode how Marketing works in the real world to grow your business. Why bother with consumer research? To understand people's motivations. If you don't know the psychology behind what people say and do, how will you address their pain points? How will you solve their problems? But most entrepreneurs think that they already know everything about their consumers. They simply don't. That's because consumer research is an art. Humans are not black and white. One has to dig deep into the human brain to understand why people say and do what they say and do. This episode is a masterclass on consumer research. Vani speaks with Julia Ismalkova, a psychologist, researcher and founder of the Poland-based market research firm called Ismalkova. Julia helps global brands grow their businesses by studying consumers and providing practical insights into how they can improve their products and services. If you want to know how people think and why they lie, then this episode is a very, very interesting episode. Hope you enjoyed as much as I enjoyed recording it. What I know you feel most passionately about, which is consumer research. You are a consumer research professional, a very, very thorough professional, which I found out my great delight. And so you say this many times over and over again and very unabashedly so that all consumers lie or that all people lie. It was a big headline of your presentation. Talk to us a little about that. Why do you feel or why do you believe that all people lie and actually true? Well, I think the most passionate about is psychology and I actually consumer research, because I'm very passionate about making the psychology practical. Because from my perspective, I believe that nothing is more practical than understanding of human mind and human behavior. And I'm happy that I find the way how I can connect with what I love so much into practical things. Because business for me is very practical. In any of the day, nobody's reading psychology or doing research in business just because it's pure interest. It needs to be ROI. It needs to have return investment. It has to be money. And I really like it because I see how it works and that gives me such a section. So when it comes to that everybody lies, it's basic truth that about human being from psychological perspective. We as a human, we are very gentle. Our construction, emotional construction is very gentle. We would never be able to survive this world if not lies. That's why they often, when we complete the American, so American, you ask how they are and this like I'm fine and this. It's like you can say it's a lie, but it's also something that you cannot implement for them. It's the opposite and it's way more difficult and you ask them and they'll suddenly tell you all the life story from a negative perspective and they start complaining. And suddenly, if you like, a mountain is crashing on you. And it's just very heavy very often when you go around with people because everybody has like bad life. And so from this perspective, I want to have a lie. I'm like, because people when you ask, how are you? It's already a lie because most of the time we're not really interested. That's a kind of question. So then you either have to tell the truth, which is like nobody interested or you like, or you just have to lie because it's a convention. So when we some time I'm good, I'm not really good, but I don't want to tell you my life story over all of that. I don't want to hear your life story. When I'm at before, I really want to know how you are and you know that I want to know so we can honestly talk about this. But this you need special connection and master, you do not have special connection where social beings, so we need to interact and we need somehow, you know, stay together with that in soul to each other and with that killing each other. So that's why life or life is social glue that keep us together as a society where it's a set also in my conversation, in a relationship as a marriage. Like you don't always tell the truth when I saved my husband after giving birth, did I put on weight? Like I do not expect him to tell me the truth. Like this is the last thing that I need and he absolutely knows about this. And the same when he's asking me like, you know, do you see I put on weight when we ate so much worry and pregnancy is like absolutely not. You look stunning like always and well, if you can say that it's either a lie or which is much better, they will do see each other this way in relationship. Then it's a truth. But when it comes to business, you cannot have convention because this is not how it works. You need to know facts because you need to make business decision. So that's why business you don't want to be nice. You need to know the truth. And this is what I do in my work. No matter if it's research or consulting or when I push for a kiss, you know, into like briefs when he is doing it, he needs to know facts. He needs to know how people really think and he needs to know how people really, you know, act because when I asked, did I put on weight which is very sensitive usually subject for females. It's also the most interesting is why do I need to hear the line? How does it define you? Sorry, I didn't get that. Why do I need to? Why do I need to hear the lie? Why I have so much resistance to hear the truth? Why do I actually even need this information? I could ask, well, do you think I'm still as smart as I was before? Do you think I'm as funny as I used to be? But I do not ask that. So, when you research, it's very important that not only that you see catch somebody online, but to understand why, why exactly he is using this lie, but not that one. Why does he needs this glue to feel good? And how then brands can use it or not use it in order to get to people. So this is why it's so important to acknowledge the fact that lies is not only bad intention. It's just the way we define it. It's something that is not true with reality for whatever reason. What do you find about the reasons that men lie versus women lie? Do you find that it's more difficult to get men talking versus the women talking? And do you see that there is a difference in cultures because I know you've done research across so many different countries. So I'd love to like it or the example of how Americans respond to us is how the Polish respond, but we'd love to hear from you on exactly that, which is a how the women and men lie differently and different across cultures. Well, why men women lie differently? It's we already know it from science. So this is something that we just use it as a preparation process for researcher. Women have to lie usually main reason for women to lie is to protect. They usually protect themselves and they usually protect somebody else. They just don't want to insult somebody. They don't want anybody to feel bad. That's why women lie about orgasm, for example, because they just don't want somebody to feel bad. Like this is something that I would never understand because from their perspective, like, what's the point? And it's like, why would I lie something that I did not have? They really like physically not able to understand why women would do that. And because they're not able to understand that, that's why they always believe in their lies. And this is why it's so important to understand a human mind. So you actually can have the truth for yourself because if you don't believe and don't understand why somebody lies, you can't discover this. So women, so they built their value by how much pleasure and happiness they give to somebody else. So this is why they would lie and they don't think it's anything like bad, very often. And they said, women would lie about, you know, doing shopping that it was on sale something because in their head, they have to protect also the budget. And they don't like when they have image of person who just not protect the family budget. So that's why even so very often in the special and the good marriages, manages to not give a shit. If you buy the shoes on sale, off sale, like they don't care. But they don't even ask you, but women has to lie just because she thinks he cares. So she said, well, about it on sale. And that was like 70% said, okay, like, like it doesn't matter to him. And it was like great example of the company who is who is selling shoes and in the end she's asking, do you want to be a catch, received that is 50% off for your husband. And then I thought it's a great thing. Yeah, it's a simple thing that comes from understanding the woman has this in like inherit need to lie on the subject that man sometimes don't even care. Some and care, of course, in some marriages, but must do not. So this is why women lie and they like really have to do it from this perspective. And very often lie to build the ego to build their position to build their power. And that is crucial to understand this relationship because like this is what women very often do not understand this. But if you have problems, why don't you talk about this? Why don't you talk with me about this? If you don't want to talk with me, fine. Why don't you talk with your friend with the therapist with anybody. But for men talking about his failures, like that he was fired, that he did not get a job, that he lost on the court. It means he has to admit that he is weak. And if meeting the man is weak, hurting his ego, and it's again not good, not bad, it's just a fact. And for men who has very sensitive ego, this is something so painful that he needs also to protect it. So that's why he built a wall against this ego. So he feels safe. That's why it's no point of pushing men to talk when it's very rarely, even with the friends that man openly say, "Well, I have a problem with my boss. Both my boss does not treat me nicely. He just humiliates me from. He just said, "He's such a asshole. He does not see this. He does not see that." Because they need to build the ego so they don't feel weak. And that is why it's very big difference. That's why when we do research, we always have to check whatever they tell the truth about what kind of car they really buy or what kind of engine they really have. Because again, they don't. From my perspective, I don't even know anything about cars. So I don't ever judge men based on the cars, because for me cars exist based on color. And that's it. So it's black, white, whatever. I don't know. So when this starts saying, "That is an engine of this and this and that." It's like, "Great." But then when you do research with a man, then somebody says, "Well, does that really have that engine?" Or like, in this car, you don't even have that big engine. So, Harko, you're like, "You can see that they have this need to boost some things to make bigger." And that is always exclaiming my clients. It's a little bit like this. Whatever woman's doing, she needs to make it smaller. Like about her weight, about her age, about whatever her feet, even that it's smaller. That's why she constantly walking into small shoes. And whatever man is doing, he needs to have the opposite. He needs to be big everything. Like, he's taller. He earns more money. His bigger car, his more lovers, had more sex. He's by small. He's like, "I got on more holidays. He had more rewards." So, this is why we have. So that's knowing this. You know how to judge when people are talking. So you need actually to compare it to reality. Because we know that the moment a little bit made it too small, when a little bit too big. Hope you like the first part of the conversation where Julia used the psychology of lies to explain consumer truths. In the next part, she talks about differentiating data from analysis. Bad research reports are often just transcripts. Julia explains why it's important to ask for both data, which are observations, and analysis, which are insights from your consumer research. Listen, like I as a client have always or not always, that would be incorrect, but many times looked at research very skeptically. And you should look very skeptically. Have you ever had an operation in your life? Yes. Do you think the operation that you had any doctor would do with the same result as you had? Would you trust any doctor? No, no way. And in the same way, it should be true to researchers. Just because we are a researcher, we are not the same. I would never trust on operation of my baby or myself, a doctor who does not have experience, who I do not talk and don't know his methodology, his way of thinking, how he's going to cure us. The same with the researcher. Just because we are researchers, just because we use the same technology, just because we use the focus group, just because we use the ethnography, we are not the same. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And it's very important, because as Lachon said that medium is a message, and research is a message. So if you don't choose a researcher that is trained to differentiate data from analysis, because it's two different steps, then you don't get a good research. If you don't get a researcher who understands what strategy means and that research is not the end result, it's the beginning for the client. So he's interested in transcription, because this is monkey can do, you know. Every stupid can learn how to ask questions, like you don't need that. So if you don't actually understand what clients need, what is strategy? If you have research who does not have enough knowledge in the marketing and the client's site, that is not probably the best researcher. Because not have methodology when he can differentiate gathering data from analyzing data, it's probably not a very good researcher. If you don't have a researcher who has, you know, somebody has like a site, very sense in my ideology. And it's so great. But in the end of the day, you need to know what was set and what was interpretation. For example, in my co-boy we have on the level of basic researchers, so the one who is going on field and the right basic report that is not going to the client. Even on this level, we have methodology of four colors that he has differentiated what he saw and what he heard from quote of the person from writing the story, from what is his recommendation or interpretation. Because this is the last thing client has said, well, I don't agree with this. And we say, okay, we can discuss this. But with rest, he cannot discuss because this is the fact. And why is it so important to put facts and interpretation? If you don't put facts, if you don't agree, you don't know the basics. You don't know how to discuss. It's like when you go to the doctor, you cannot say, well, this other doctor said that this is my bad one, it's not well. And I really need this operation to, I don't know, straighten it up and put nails there. Well, I need to know the photo. Can you please show me the photo of your, of your spine? And you not think, well, we need to trust me. It's just not good. Just just open it up and do it. He said, no, I need to see the basics. I will decide what is my, that's why as fast as methodology have, you need to deliver the basics. You need to see what is semantics, what is symbol. You need to have a proof for the client why you did this interpretation. But you also need to do interpretation because clients is not one of them, order research and then spend another month thinking what to do about this. He needs to have a creation, like we always say that I do research and all my analysis or even consultation, like a strategist or strategist. So I need to deliver him full data so he can just choose. You can decide because that is what is going to be easy for him to decide what to do. Well, that was Julia telling us why marketers and entrepreneurs must not accept interpretations without proof backing it. In the next part she shares why she thinks that way because people lie, proofs don't. You will get to know how this signs behind consumer research actually functions. Listen on everybody lies also researches. So you need to know if he is going to deliver what he wants. If you have, if you are the same tribe, if he thinks the same way as using, if he understands you clearly, if he understands what he wants, if he just wants you to transcribe the person, it is not a research that is not in your analysis. People do not know. And this is your job as a researcher to dig into this and to get to know not just based on declaration because we can say anything. It's just words, anything. And any client can do it for themselves. It's going to be cheaper just to go and ask the reason why he hires so somebody can dig deeper. Very nice. So you said something very interesting even in what you explained you said it's important to have the observation. Like you said here, I'm showing you a picture of my backbone and then you decide why you need this, this sort of a search list. You're saying one must have the observation and then one must have your is why I'm telling you what I'm telling you. So you're presenting both and then you, you know, people lie but proof doesn't, which means that we're actually saying we want not just the interpretation. We also want to prove one of the things that I've found when I speak with clients is that they feel, you know, if I re talk to our consumers all the time, we're looking at consumer reviews all the time. There's nothing about our consumers. We don't already know, you know, why do you need to do this research? We've been in business for so long or you know, I was working with a well investment platform and they were looking to hire wealth advisors. And so they were actually interviewing almost 20 to 30 well advisors every day. And yet trying to figure out what's the right profile of well advisors that we'd like on board. And they actually agreed to doing a consumer research to figure out what goes on inside the minds of well advisors and why would somebody want to join us? At the end of the research, they admitted that we learned so much so many new things that we never did realize despite actually sitting in front of them and talking to them day in and day out because they're doing interviews every day. So one of my big questions to you, you as a researcher, is do you find your clients actually telling you, but we spoke into a lot of our consumers. You know, we've been in business for so long. We know the category really well. We know how people buy baby food or we know how women buy cosmetics, what works, what doesn't work. We don't really need research to figure this. You know, we just need to get to this strategy very quickly. Well, I have it all the time. And this is my when reason like why the research is kind of doing it because they think we have so much research that just use what we have because we know everything. And you know, I know what's your sponsor this. If you know everything, how come you're not to know the jungle? How come you're not the best in in what they do? Like if you know, it's so well. I don't see it on your market shares. And even if you have the leader, like I really, for me, the leader is somebody has 90%. Like, Danny can say, well, I know everything. So you just like, but most of the time this is not what happening. People say in a very not smart way because I understand saving. I also believe that we should save money because in the end of the day, you know, companies and money understand that. But we need to do it in a very smart way. And you know where to save or not to say just because you talk, you just deal. We train people how to talk. I was trained in interview for five years during my psychology. And I have so many classes about interviewing and and and and diagnosis. I train diagnosed. So I can draw conclusion about how one people about people mental health, which is very difficult because it's on the subtle clues. So I was trained how to talk to get subtle hints. So I can move my hypothesis forward. And clients do not train every time they think they're goodness. And every time we do workshops because now mainly especially now I do mainly workshops. And the basic exercise about listening and asking question and they fail. And I have to tell you 90% of the time after strategic workshops. I always 90% that I always follow up with it. One day workshops about listening and asking questions. Because it's a competence. You need to be trained how to do well every time I do three days workshop and we have an exercise to when actually get them people to talk to. And then draw conclusion and then they have to present it in front of me with the conclusion what to do. It's always the biggest failure always. And I don't blame them because I would never be able to do like good market plan because I'm not you know I'm not qualified to do this. It's not my job. I don't have competence to do so I don't think they should have competence to do this. But if they do research if they do question if they want to draw because they have to have this confidence so either they have to train. This is another thing they would do for the last years very often we train people inside the company to create the inner research department. And if you decided to do it train them with the best possible people that actually trained just because you know how to speak there's not many you know how to ask questions just because you're not know you know how to listen just because your brain does not know you can draw conclusions. It has to be trained though it's very very very often happens what you saying and it's very difficult sometimes to get through this and to the community actually prove them to show that it's something different you need to have a often fresh eyes and you need somebody who see it from different perspective you need not to feel attacked. You know training with the clients it's where we have observation which is basically unique in another. And sometimes it's very simple way how to start with the clients for example they need to be near the shelf for the product and competition competition and just serve and that's it. And draw conclusions observation and listening nothing more and you know the kind of handle this and somebody is doing this like why choosing this no it's not the best this is the best and like and understand them if you work on the packaging for like last three months you feel paying so because it has less sugar did you read this it does not have less sugar this is what it says like why did not compare so they almost very often yelling at this poor people you know. And this is not how it works so you just I understand the because I probably would be able to that would be my thing like I'm very passionate about one of just understand that they're passionate it's less people's nights and so I understand that but that's the reason why we're not born as humans to know and to do everything by themselves. It's good to have people who do different jobs so you can do your job the best possible way I'm not the best law I don't know how to and millions on running corporation but somebody is in order for him to his job the best you need to hire me so I can deliver him or everything he needs so he can earn this millions. This episode was brought to you by Cherry Beach Plum. Vani and her team of marketers and problem solvers at Cherry Beach Plum help businesses solve a wide range of growth challenges by utilizing proven marketing playbooks get in touch with us via cherry beach plum.in if you want to take your brand to the next level. I hope you like my show and if you did please do consider subscribing I also have a YouTube channel by the same name marketing by Vani please do check that out too. Thank you. How badly can she screw up one dime. Okay.