Conor O'Shea: Borthwick's contract, overseas rule & Red Roses

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[MUSIC] Five lives, rugby union weekly. [MUSIC] Right, rugby weekly, Hugo, signings episode. Yeah. We had last week, welcome back with Finn Russell, you know, Bernard Janssen van Rensburg. Marrow. Marrow. And then our new signings episode, our big signings episode, court needles. Mm-hmm. Raffi Quirk, Nicki Smith, Jack Morgan. Couple of questions for you. Okay. Before we bring in our special guest for this episode, it's Courtney going to play for England again. [MUSIC] It's a yes or no. It literally is a yes or no answer. There cannot be any. But I have a. Yeah, well he's, I mean, he's going to play for England again. Because we were discussing this as you would have known if you'd had the episode. It's not within my nature to close the door and someone's ambition. So I'm going to say, yes. Okay. So Courtney will play for England again. And. I think it'd be very difficult. Uh, who is the signing of this season? Uh, Jack Morgan. Jack Morgan. The same as me. Oh, I'm obsessed with him. He's brilliant. So Jack Morgan is on our new signings episode. If you haven't heard it, I've got to mention George Martin. We rattle through some of the big names. But George Martin, to go with the other saris have recruited. Big human. If they get a lot of minutes out of him, which is, you know, we know he's had his injuries and if he can get, get the pound of flesh then he's going to be some asset. Right. Our big guest today. Our big guest. My former boss. Um, Connoir Chey. Here we go. How are you? Very good. Oh, really nice to be here. How can we last had you on around? It's been a while. When you were Italy boss. And you, um, did the funny rock tactics. That's wicked. Rock game. Wow. I thought the last time we were, was the two of us out in Lake Garda somewhere. Oh, that, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was. He was very good. Monos, he was very good at coming out for that. He did that interview live in person. Yeah. Of course, he couldn't do zoom. No, how could you? That was lovely. Yeah. Do you believe me so easily? That was a lovely spot, wasn't it? Yeah, that was a pretty good spot. Yeah, you enjoyed it as well. Yeah, no, it did, especially the lunch. Um, um, but great to be back on, Connoir. It is. It is good to have you back. Because after messenger P8, uh, see you. It's that easy. Rich coming from you. Rich. That is the heck out of the top. Hello, it's not start off this program like this. We're doing business calls while we've been waiting for the interview. Generally, yeah, man, Adam, he's not even, not even mentioning the numbers. So I support you. I like talking money. I don't like talking money. He said like, okay, let's go start. Good start. Um, I'm excited to talk to you. Uh, and I mentioned to a few people. So I'm chatting to Connoir O'Shae and I said, it's cool. Because everyone, like, everyone likes you. Um, but we've not heard from you in a little while. And the one thing that I found interesting is that everyone knows you work in the RFU. But people didn't exactly know what you did. So can I ask you your job title and what that involves? Uh, I hate job titles, isn't it? Like, it's executive director of performance. If you, if you look at the broad, it's looking after the men's and women's pathways, the referees, coaching, sports science medicine, technology conditioning, and all the pathways that lead to the two big teams, the Red Roses and the England men's senior teams. So, uh, it's pretty varied. It's incredibly enjoyable, incredibly, uh, energising. Uh, and it's got as challenges like any job. No, of course, it's a massive job because your succession plan in, you're looking at the future while struggling the present, like any coach. And of course, you've been a coach, you understand those pressures. But within all of that, the mechanics of it, who do you report into? Who reports into? How does that all work? And, uh, uh, I just named the number of people that report into me. I'd say, uh, I brought, I reported to Bill and then we were reported to the board. That's, that is Bill Swinney, uh, that, that is my direct reporting line. Um, and, uh, then I have a new myself, say, I'll go back to my brothers when they talk about what, what's the best thing about a doctor and they say it's bedside manner. And I think bedside manner is important. The patients will tell you everything that's wrong with themselves. And it's the same. I have a lot of good people, uh, who work for me and make my job a lot easier, uh, than, than it could be because they're brilliant, brilliant people. Whether you look at, uh, the technology and the innovation and research that we do, if we don't can lock Nager Redmond looking after the coaches, Paul Hull, uh, in charge of the refereeing, uh, Nathan Martin has been, I get an institution looking after all the operations and logistics, John Mitchell, and Charlie Hayter heading up the red roses and Steve here with the, with the, the men's team. So there, there are so many people and I'll probably miss naming a few of them, but it's just trying to make sure that you work across the programs. Remain as visible as you can within that, um, you know, we're out and about at the moment. We had, uh, you're probably at the content, uh, day for Prem the other week. And, uh, we met with the 10 directors of rugby, uh, that day. We're now down the road, talking to them individually, uh, making sure that we're kind of aligned as we possibly can be. It's every year's a big year in English rugby. This is a particularly big year. Yes, that's why it seems a really good time to talk to you, Connor. In 12 months time, there's a men's rugby woke up. 12 months ago, I'll tell you, not far off the day well later on in September, but it was the red roses crowning moment, unbelievable, um, achievement to win the World Cup. So at the moment of sandwich between those, those two huge, um, events, if we look forward, 12 months to go to the men's rugby world cup, where are the team in your mind? Um, Chris Monner knows me. I'm, I'm an incredibly positive person. Sport is unique and the world we live in is incredibly unique. And it changes at the drop of a hat and people rightly, passionately overreact when things don't go your way, um, probably overreact when they do go your way. So you talked to 12 months ago, we're waiting for the red roses, defining moment, uh, their next defining moment starts this week. Your next match is your defining moment. Um, and if you go back seven months, six months, it's not even that, uh, England are on the back of 12 months in advance. Uh, we had a horrendous six nations. We know that. Everyone knows that, uh, but the belief that we have in this group of players and sometimes I was actually thinking before I came down, thinking the experiences I've had with, uh, with you go in the, in the past. Uh, everyone looked at 2012 and, uh, Quinn's winning their first premiership has been this incredible season with no adversity, but no, nothing and nothing could be further from the truth. Pumped at home by to lose, written off. Following week, what do we do? We beat them because we're able to contextualize, understand and learn later on that season. Absolutely pumped in the last regular games, home game of the season by Leicester Tigers. There was no overreaction in our group. There was a reaction of what have we learned from that game? The when I remember even, I could bring them into the dressing room. When we get into the final, if we do this, this and this, we can win and sport is about margins. And it's about small moments and matches. And when you get confidence, things build, this England team is unequivocally one of probably five and you're going to ask me that can win this World Cup next year. I'm not going to name them because then I'll leave a team at. We'll end up playing them in a World Cup and then they'll come out and play this back. I believe this team can win a World Cup next year. We have had a really difficult time, but I think in whether it be the game against France, at the tail end of the Six Nations, the fight against Argentina, to an extent, 19-3 against South Africa. From 19-3 if I get it right, a terrible start, but having the objuracy to come back in. And there are some other things that I get. Confidence and sport is everything. Psychology is huge. Getting the discipline right is the talent there, 100%. So there was a review after the Six Nations. Everyone knows you just said it now. It was a horrendous Six Nations. What learnings did you see upon your findings in the review that you then saw manifest itself this summer? What some didn't, in the sense that anyone could look from the outside. I think very careful, Morrison, and Chris, that people talk about transparency a lot. And they're right, it should be, but also, in a world where people mull over everything and utilize everything to their advantage and sometimes to drive stakes between people. If you're too open about some stuff, opposition will use it in their favor. Anyone could come in for the outside. It was discipline, a huge issue for everybody within the group, of course it was, because you can't spend as many minutes of games at this level down to that extent, or down yellow cards, red cards. Another huge impact negatively. And I think from that mental side, of the game with the reviews, probably a big thing. Did that come out? Unfortunately, you're sitting down. You think at 31-21 and you fought your way back into the game and Tommy and we go down to 13 against that. I forget the same on top. So there are things that some of that is too much of a want. Do you know what I like? You're angst and you're under the pump. You go down, you're kicked into the corner and that second yellow card is someone chasing the game rather than just let things happen and build your way back into the game. So I think I do like the thought that people talk about reviews. You review every game, not every campaign, and you've involved. That's what sport is. You review every training session. So it's constant, but this was more in depth because it needed to be. It had to be. Yeah, and I totally get it. There's always a review that there doesn't seem to be much information provided or much change. I'm not always saying that change is the necessary thing, but I think at the end of something which has been so disappointing, you expect to see or feel a little bit more. And that perhaps wasn't given, does that make sense? It makes sense, but, you know, there's not a chewable. You're saying that's right. Yeah, it's just how it is. I would disagree with it because there's not a chewable. It's not that some really direct and hard conversations aren't had, but you support each other. And sometimes out of adversity and out of really tough times, your team become a lot stronger for it. And, you know, you talk about the English football team through the World Cup, and you know, last 32, and they're 1-0 down to the Democratic public of Congo or whatever, and there's things coming up saying 45 minutes to save his career, 45 minutes from the biggest shambles in the history of English football. 45 minutes later, and two games later, it's the greatest English team that ever wore all these mistakes that were they've learned from the past. And then after the semifinal, it's all calamities again. And you're kind of looking, there's a medium in all of this. There's a balance that you have to bring that you just don't go with this huge amount of now as a supporter, as a player, as a coach, as a member of staff. God, you're emotional. You live through those things probably more than anybody else. But there's this almost hyper-over-reaction in the moment. And the emotion you have immediately after game, how is that 24 hours after the game? How is it 48 hours? I always had that rule straight after a match that I wanted to use. I'd try and contextualize the moment, but I give myself the emotional moment to give time to be able to look at it again. So I think everybody gets at the passion, the will that people have to see their country succeed and see this England team succeed in football team. Every England sportsperson succeed is huge, but with that comes a huge responsibility within the team, but also a huge burden, a huge weight, which you want people to almost get after shoulders and just be themselves. And if over this next 12 months, this England team shows the best version of itself what the talented has, I know it can be anyone of the world. 100% can. Really interesting about overreaction and balance, because there's that, I suppose, also balanced up against having super-high standards. So the South African's lost home to New Zealand as far as the South African media and Rosy Rasmus agreed that it was a catastrophe, five tries to one, spill to home, breach and all that. England win one out of five, four defeats in a row, and the messages don't panic. Is there not a middle ground between, actually, England can't win one out of five in a six-nake? No, they can't. Agreed. Yeah, we all know that. It's not the level, but no one was overreacting when we were in 12-n-row. And then you talk about some people saying, "Well, who do they beat in that?" "Well, it was in Zealand and Australia and France." So there weren't, like, schmock teams that you just put away and say, "Okay." But also, no one, this is the bit I find frustrating. I can't speak on behalf of anyone. We get told we're overreacting when England lose four in a row. When we perhaps slightly hyperbolic when England win 12-n-row, no one tells us to calm down. I do. I do. And I think what you do within sport and within from a management point of view is you try and stay level through it all and understand. So I'm not saying, it's right to overreact. It's right to be passionate. It's right to have an opinion. The job in here is to basically, you talk about that first test in South Africa. Talk to me after 47 minutes. Who was the dominant team? That's the end of 47. No, yeah, but you go after the match. So when you talk a reaction, I would love to go in, put it all in there. I'd love to be in the debrief that South Africa had after because it wasn't. Oh my goodness, we're in pieces here. They're miles better. It was five tries to one. Because that wasn't the game I saw. This is the first test. It wasn't the game I saw. So you're talking about emotion. We lost. Last 20 minutes, awful. It's always your last emotion. That's when you carry with you. So you're going, we got pumped and we got yellow carded. And there was two yellow cards. So then you go, it's all fallen apart. And you're sealing our miles better. As a coach or as a group and a senior players, you're going, okay, terrible. This is what we can't do. This discipline was bad, but actually, fellas, 47 minutes. We should be so far out of sight that that's not the game anymore. So fix the things that we control. And that's what we, when you talk about here, is the discipline is an issue we need to fix because 50 minutes of pitch, we're a match for anybody. And actually, our job in this next 12 months is the marriage of an unbelievable group of young players with a senior group of players. You'd love to set the challenge I was talking to Jamie Pitchside today. How many people who want a gold silver bronze in World Cops? We have a few who could do that. Now, for it to be all gold, for it to be back-to-back, like the South Africans, we'll actually be pretty unique in 12 months' time. And people will say, "Can't that car show a delusional talking like that?" I'm not. Because I know this team is, I know it's capable of us. But I also know that you can get momentum back. And we lost it. After that 12, you know, there was this period when they were in 24 when we were playing really well, the evolution after 23 World Cup, not getting over the line. Then you go on the wrong of getting over the line. And we've been given a right whack in the face. But when I look at the group, when I look at the players, when I look at the coaching staff and how they're working, I can feel confident going into the 12 months that we'll be the version of ourselves that will give ourselves a chance. And that's all you want to do. It's a cracking squad. Like, when I look at the individuals at the clubs, when I look at them at England, I see so much potential. I see everything that you're seeing. We've dwelled a lot in the past. Let's look ahead now. You mentioned this 12-month ahead. And I guess the next international block is November. How important, how crucial is the month of November for this squad? Massively, in terms of what you say about the momentum. So it's our last chance. So I think Steve is spoken with our last chance against the Southern Hemisphere sides. Before we get to the World Cup, before we go into a really important six nations, I think there's a number of players coming back into the frame, which will add depth and competition. And there's a few players who will have learnt a lot over the last year. It's funny when you have people coming in and they haven't lost, and probably think life is very easy. And international is sometimes actually too bad to be given a whack because it is tough out there. And it's only the really hardest, the most resilient people that are able to make it an international level. They're the ones you want to get in the pitch. I had this famous thing that was, I could never get it when I was told, when I won my first cap and the Irish captain came up to me and he said, "I'll congratulate you when you get dropped and come back." I could never get it. So what a weird thing to say when I just won my first cap. It's quite wise, isn't it? But I understood it in hindsight. It's easy to make. It's like the first thing you're bubble, but it's an interesting concept. It's Philip Downer, I was just in case he was listening. But it's something that's always stuck at my heart, look at players. When we're looking at players out there, it's not the player. It's easy. When it's easy. It's tough, you see who's got that ability to play under pressure, to be under the pump, but you're asking, it's hugely important and everybody knows of this group of players. I think it's an incredibly special group of players. Are they, and have they been feeling us, yeah, they have, but they're showing enough and even in that, you know, that rear-guard action and making the most tackles a tier one side is ever made in an international game against Argentina, but we've got unbelievable players with ball in hand and I can't wait to see that come into fruition this year. Is there a world where Steve isn't the coach at the World Cup? Not my mind. Yeah. Not even remotely. Yeah, so Tony asked that because clearly post the Six Nations there was scrutiny on his position. Then through the summer at times, I've spoken to England players who have said it felt pressurised, if things have gone wrong against Fiji, for example. Does Steve get 100% backing from you and Bill Sweeney to say even if you lose all three for. or in November, you're still the coach next year. - Yeah, we've said that we want him to be that coach and I'm back again. What he did in the 10 months later into the World Cup in '23 was a tough job in terms of, I'll probably go into an older group of players, he brought Danny Care back in the Zimmer friend, and Danny made his first tackle ever just to put that on record in the last minute against Fiji. - That was huge tackle. - Very, well, he had no options. - No massive tackle, but a big moment. - He had no options, but it was a big moment. Anyway, since he's not here, we can tackle him off. - And then the team evolved. And there is a number, you will team. It's too quick, I've gone back. You said not to go back, but I will. Lancaster, Farrell, Kat, Roundtree, water group of coaches. And they had a terrible 2015 water group of coaches. And what happened? No one had the gumption to say they're the right people. Graham Henry, Steve Hanson, Wayne Smith, 2007. They did have the gumption to say, "We're stickin' by this group." And they went on to win the next two World Cups. So, sport is about results, don't get me wrong. And we all know when you get into it, it's a very cultural business. But you also are very aware of the challenge of coaching any international side. And it's very different, you know how you do a lot. You coach a club level and there's a hierarchy. You know, there's a natural hierarchy of a young player coming through and then an older experienced player who's been there and they've got the jersey and you kind of know it. Here, at international level, all teams, you're talkin' alphas. And they all want that jersey. So, having to sit down as a head coach and put it one week here and say, "Okay, Finn, Marcus, George, "one is picked, one's on the bench "and the other probably hates it." Because, you know, that's just the way it is. It's difficult. I know it's a long answer to your question, but results count. But I see, in Steve, someone who, as you'd expect, pleads England. He wants England to succeed more than anything you could imagine. Our job is to help him in this next 12 months and help Lee and Wiggy and Kev Sinfield. And you know, I mentioned the, you know, the Addyfiles, you're a Lancaster group. When you name that, Joe Alabdon and Paura, what do you know about this? That's a great group of English people who want this England team to succeed. And I believe can make it succeed. You mention the squad and every decent squad needs that. I'd imagine you probably want the same philosophy when you look to succession plan. So you're looking at the 20s, the 18s, or who might come through and bleed into the senior team. But as and when you've got to review a World Cup, hopefully England victorious, but if they don't and you're looking at who might be the next England coach, do you have a list of names straight to mind? I'm not asking you to name them, of course, I wouldn't. But I guess that's part of the role. Do you have a list of people who you think, right, within a year, two years, whatever that might be, that they're going to be ready to potentially be an England intern? Of course we do. So, and that part of the coach, it could be a conversation that you have with people the whole time. Everyone's constantly, that's the way the world works, is ensured that you're with them. I think one of the areas that we, as a union, really faltered was that 2016 to 2020, when we got rid of the whole coach development kind of program, but not when you think of it. And it would have been the same with some of the going towards the more part time coaches coaching at the underage levels, as opposed to full time coaches who get to know the players absolutely inside out, are able to pass the do's and don'ts onto the senior team. So we have a huge consistency, and that takes time, and you take any little period out of a game when it comes to development of people and players, it impacts you big time. So, your shop window, everyone sees, it's easy. They don't see what's coming up behind. I go back to our easily conversations. They don't care. The shop window is the one that everyone sees, but all the work that goes behind, making sure that those systems and processes in place. That gives you sustained success, are a sustained chance of success. And that's why I'm, and Hugo's going to finish this, and he's going to turn to you and say, "Oh God, this is like going back in time "because color is always positive." But I'm positive for a reason, because I see what's happening, but I also understand why people have hurt over the last number of months together, because I left, I left Aliens after that Irish game, so down. Who couldn't, as an English supporter, someone who works for England, you couldn't. But hurt for the players, because I know they're hurt for the coaches' staff, because that's not what we're to be, but sometimes those things happen in life, in sport. And I am absolutely convinced that this group of players, staff, and everything that we've had in place, we'll get back in place and get motor and lean into the World Cup. And on the coach piece, because I think it has been an issue in English, where I'll be looking at, and it's maybe the structure, you know, a premon and the Union are connected, but also divorced as well, we're saying New Zealand, they're all one, so if you're a good provincial coach, the pathways to the All Blacks, it feels that if that coaching pathway hasn't always been here, you know, it'd be a waste if someone like San Vista, Phil Delsen don't coach England one day, but you can't say for sure, looking for the outside in that pathway is there, to go right, we've got a plan for Phil Delsen, a plan for San Vista, a plan for whoever it might be, to get involved with England as and when, because surely if the whole system is working, that's got to be the ambition. - Yeah, well, we're bringing things in like, communities of practice, as they've been called, in terms of all the different coaches from the technical areas, whether it be defence attack, we talk to the directors rugby about getting together, and getting together and using the brains that are in that room to look at some of the challenges of that English rugby, it might be just, not just the challenges now, but what's the game in the future? Who's watching the only 20 World Cup with the lower tackle life? Is the lower tackle like coming into the game in the 28-9 season? We don't know. - Like, could? - Yeah. - So, actually, let's get ahead. Well, let's get ahead of the game to start looking because that's what I watched when I went to Tbilisi and saw some of the under 20s and what happened there. And then having coaches and people going out to help support, and there is a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes. Do we need more investment? And I could feel my CFO over my shoulder, I got, oh my god, he's looking for more money again. But as a game, where are we going to put our chips? Coaching makes a difference. And in terms of people then say, we'll always go, well, he's talked about this English coaching staff that have to be English. The best person has to coach England. Ideally, that person is English from my point of view. And you look at the history of major men's sporting events and you look over the last 90 years and only one foreign coach, I think, has won in either football or rugby a major title. It's only Greece, I think, that won with a foreign coach from the Euro. That's for me, OK. But that doesn't mean that's the answer either. So it's complex, but it's too simplistic, say, the amount of work and even what we're doing at the moment in terms of being more joined up. I think what's probably, maybe worth talking about a bit, is last January, people talk about the professional game partnership and the professional game agreement before last January, something very significant happened in terms of how we're looking on the premiership as an expansion league. And that security of tenure allowing further investment into the game, which we're seeing beginning to come in, but also, with my positive hat on, I'm hoping it also allows us to be more open around club and country in terms of what we're able to do around our players, around our game, how we play it, how we interact and share a lot more, because the threat, so to speak, the threat of losing your job has never gone in sport, sadly, that's about results. But the threat of relegation is gone. And I hopefully we can use that for further springboard. Connor, when you were a coach, the sense of positivity or feedback was every single weekend. So five there to you'd know whether you won or lost and you're able to reflect on that. I guess your job and the timescale, which you can reflect on things is slightly different, maybe a bit longer. So when you go to bed at night, wherever that be, on a monthly basis, quarterly basis, whatever, when you close your eyes, rest your head, what are the things that you want to see in place that makes you happy and what are the things that will keep you up at night? When I go to bed at sleep at night, I'm hopefully I'm beside my wife and not to give her that whole time. There's loads. I think I've always been someone who's thought, how can people, I hate strong word, but I do. People and players not fulfilling their potential. And I see so much talent in the English system at the moment. And you could say, there always is. [BLANK_AUDIO] mae'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ni'n ac mae'n ei gweithio. Ond mae'n gweithio yn gweithio yn gweithio gweithio, mae'n gweithio gweithio gweithio. Mae'n gweithio gweithio gweithio gweithio gweithio. Mae'n gweithio gweithio gweithio. Mae'n gyda'r gwybod o'r gwaith i'n gwaith i'r gwaith i'r gwaith i'n gwaith i'r gwaith i'r gwaith i'r gwaith i'r gwaith i'r gwa I'n gwaithio'r gwaithio'r gwaithio yn gwaithio'r gwaithio'r gwaithio'r gwaithio'r gwaithio'r gwaithio'r gwaithio'r gwaithio'r g ac mae'n gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio. a 100% ready, but your ceiling is so much higher than the person who's there in front of you. You mentioned the professional game partnership. A huge part of sort of the English rugby ecosystem is the fact that England only pick players from the league, from the Prem. Courtney Law speaking the other day about how he would change it. Look, this conversation has gone on forever, but for you, A, there are no plans to review that. And be how important is it for English rugby that the ruling is as it is? I get it completely what Courtney was saying. It's a debate that always should be had. But I think, I've just before I came in, I've read Rob Baxter, and he's absolutely hit the nail in the head. It's something that's done not just for England, but for English rugby, and it depends what we want. The content and consequence of us relaxing that rule for the long term future. And you guys sitting around and actually having jobs in a professional and a top professional game in England is massive. Now, it might not be different in 30 years time, I don't know. But as of now, if all the best players, because there might be a chance we're picked by England and went abroad and had that opportunity, and we had less of the top players in Ireland, in England, the unintended consequence towards investment into that from some of the owners. Why do we invest in the pathways if we're just going to have our best players take it away? So I get Courtney completely, like in terms of life experience, we're pretty hypocritical. I was sitting here, I've coached Italy for four years, and saying life experiences are great. Get it completely, but for the English game is absolutely the right thing. I was delighted to see Rob say what he said, because this is not just England and ivory tower. This is something that's discussed the whole time, and if people think that we're doing it just for our own good, and we don't think of all those things like absolutely wrong, but it's the right thing to do. Is there a middle ground? We've seen Marrow have a mini sabbatical across this summer, and he will come back rejuvenated, speaking to the guys at Saracens and I, to have Marrow from day one of pre-season, you know, the England captain, the British and Irish Lions captain, is so impactful. He feels fresh, and I think even joking about this is the only other time you get arrested as if you're injured. So from an English perspective, we totally understand maybe not opening the door fully to players going off to France, but if you have done X amount of years and you've got X amount of caps, could you be offered a sabbatical to have that life experience where we've been France and Japan, the MLS, what MLS MLR, that's football. It could be something, but could that be considered? Because it's not everyone then, it's special cases. I think you're talking about sabbaticals, sabbaticals by nature, I mean they're not playing it until after rugby. So they've got the right to do that? Everyone's got to, I think where we can become more mature, and we need to become more mature and open, and this is our discussions around the IDPs, like the individual development plans for the players, and how we make sure, as we go back to the thing, this game is about players. We could talk all we like, you know, about coaching, this is about players, and we need to make sure that our players are looked after, they're rested, they're fresh. It's a physically intense game, it's mentally really difficult. So how do we make sure that through a long season? But on the flip side, I always think about the long season, I said this to Jamie Pitsle today. It's unique, it makes English players pretty object when it comes to world cups, because they also had to back it up and be careful what you wish for. So a big win, I can guarantee you an English team will rock up, and they'll go again. And they'll go again, and not every side can do that. So I think we have to be really open, and I know you've mentioned a couple of things there, I think properly planned and targeted, not a bad thing to do. At the right time, in cycles, you think of post-World Cup, what would that look like from an evolution of a team, and some of the young players, because they're young players in the squad, I can imagine here today, and I'm looking at some of them, I'm going for a tough gig in there, because like, are you going to get ahead of player X and Y, but you have to stay motivated. So maybe the year after World Cup, that's when you go, that's when they're in, and you play as a carry the huge burden, there may be rest a little bit then. So I think we have to be smarter in how we do it, no doubt, because the number of games are going, but you go to games and you go, you can never hold back games for games you might play. I'm not going to play in the semi-final, because you might go over the limit in the final, but then you lose the semi-final, so you've lost two games. So I think there has to be just this sensibility that we look after our players, and one of them, that's what you've said. You mentioned post-World Cup, and Dennis can go into a question about the red roses, and I know that there's a thickness about what this sport is all about. You know, bounce for ball, and you're at the pool stage. Bounce for ball, you go on to win a World Cup. But when do you have to make a call about how things look post-20/27? Because you can't get to World Cup and go, well, win this quarterfinal, and Steve Borthick stays on, lose this quarterfinal and he goes, because no business really operates like that. But you don't want to get in the situation New Zealand got into, and they're basically sacks of guy in the infosterium was one of World Cup, which was weird. I mean, I thought Robtson didn't work out. But tell us how do you do that? You and Bill Sweeney, how do you sort that one out? The reason that there's already there, in terms of what you have, and we had with John Mitchell, and the red roses coaching team, because it goes through to the end of the season, so you're not reacting to. So to clear up the coach's contracts, go past 20/27. That's where the intention would be that they go to the end of that season. That's where the contract ends. You're in Australia with no coach or anything. What we said with Mitch, and that whole coach has been the same applies here, you don't want them looking for a job going into it. If they have no certain, that is the worst case. But sport is what it is. So everyone knows going into that World Cup, it'll be judged on the World Cup. So to speak, I know that's a famous phrase so many, many months ago, I think that was 1999. But you can't have a group of coaches going in with that uncertainty, especially when you look at the timing, as October and November. So we'll give that certainty to the group, but then that will give us time to be able to look properly when it comes to the World Cup. So what's the end of the season in terms of a date? Say, Paul Six Nations, couldn't you? That's the end of the international season. Going into the 20/28 nations, nations' championship, which will be a new year. So are those contracts done or they will be done to avoid a situation where the coaches don't know where they're coming or going to do it? Yeah, that's what we'll put in place. Exactly. We'll do exactly what we did with the Red Roses. And on the Red Roses, is there a plan post John Mitchell? I know you brought in some coaches below John, and who better guy to learn from a sort of Emily Scarrett figure who's achieved so much to play and has now transitioned full-time to coaching. So you're clearly thinking what life looks like after John. Given John's made it clear, he probably doesn't want to do a third World Cup cycle. Whereas someone like Steve, I imagine things go well in Australia. Steve would still like to be the coach. Yeah. Come to 20/31. Yeah, I listen to Mitch. We've been really, myself and Mitch go back a heck of a long way. And you look at what he was brought in to do. And this is the bounce of the ball, and I thought he was brought in. brought in, because the Red Rose of all has been successful, but he was brought in for the last week. When I say the last week, I remember explaining this aboard, this is about the semi-final and the final of the World Cup, ain't about anything else. And how he, if you could cast your way back, I don't know where it was, it was a two-hour that was doing the commentary on that. But if you cast your way back to that semi-final, we weren't in a brilliant shape at half-time. And the pressure was there, and that's when someone like him, we say, earned his core. That half-time and that whole week's built up to the World Cup final. And of course, we have a huge amount of planning going in, and we're incredibly open and it's about what we want, and what we want going into the World Cup, supposed Australia to the USA. Again, we want the best coach in team, but we feel we've got a group of young coaches that are together now that can go on and take the Red Rose's post-that. Our job, we brought Yappy back from Australia post-World Cup, Joe. She's looking after the pathways, but unfortunately she's been taken away now to take the British and Irish lines. But, you know, she is a lot of work to do to make sure that I think we're well set. We talk about the shop window, we're well set for 29, but we have to make sure we have the players for beyond 29. And you can see the beginning to come together already, but we have a lot of intentional work that needs to go into place. Can the Red Rose be too strong? No. In your mind? I love that. It's a stupid question. No, it's a stupid question, given we spent age talking about how the England men's team needs to be better than where they are. No, it's not. It was a bad one that you have a dominant tiger was, it's a bad one that you have a dominant Serena Williams. It's a bad one that you have a dominant tiger. It's kind of a. No, I'm not talking. I'm not talking. Liverpool manualises, man. That's easy. Back it up. Back it up. But let's forget, let's forget that we're sitting at Peniel Park and you've got a Red Rose in your chest and who goes to form an England player talking holistically for the women's game. They've not lost in four years. My issue with the question, I totally understand what you're saying, it's because. No, but you're going to say the other nations needs to invest and I'm saying that there are other nations who are capped out financially and cannot invest the way that England can invest. I know they can't invest the same way, maybe to the same extent, but the one thing I would always say, and I hate the feeling of everything being overnight success, but this and overnight success that has taken like a decade of investment, the intentional funding and investment into the Red Rose is different. So whilst not everyone be able to fund at the same level, is it backed by the same intention? And that's what I don't think it is and until the intention is so targeted on a women's programme, not just at the top level but everything that underneath, then you're not going to see the same outcome. I had loads of conversation with people on the RFU about, oh, should Wales and Ireland, Irish teams join the PWN and all the rest of us like, it might be better off just investing into your own leagues, but Ireland men can't sustain their own domestic league. So Ireland women aren't going to be able to sustain their own domestic league. So England, in the men's game, there are only three countries in the world that can sustain their own domestic league, England, France, and then you could argue Japan, even though it's not the strongest in MLR, but they themselves have to be commercialised further to actually make them viable. Sure, so only two potentially viable and the premise, so is there anything I know that you're not in the business of giving other teams handouts, but you can't just say to Wales, Scotland, Ireland, develop your own leagues, they can't. So does there need to be something for them? They can. But I do think when you look at the PWN and what we have done in terms of the credit allowing a lot of teams to, I'm not a place, but a lot of players to come over here to allow them the platform to develop as players themselves and look at Canada, like England plays a huge role in driving that game, the PWN has a huge, huge success story, obviously, with a lot of work to do as well. But if you're looking, and I get what you're saying, does competitive tension create greater commercialisation and broadcast, get all that, but what about celebrating what they are? I know what you do, but I'd like to celebrate how good they are, just to make the women's rugby holistically commercially as good a product as credit, there needs to be three or four or five teams at the stand of the Red Rose, six nations that has jeopardy. Like how good is the men's six nations, that Wales, Scotland can turn up with tiny percentage of the population of England, and year after year, knock them over. How good is that? Yeah. But that doesn't happen in the women's six nations. And you'd like to think that when you look at everything to August point, the investment is made to allow that to happen, but I presume, I'm talking here from a pure competitor, I look at the standard and the level that that group of women have reached. Does that mean they'll go through the six nations and are the WXV, they have some tough games and some moving parts within the team like they had in the six nations, but that's actually probably creating a forced evolution of the team now. But I'd look probably more and say they have been the standard bearer for people to actually come and say, wow, this is how good the women did. I sat with a good friend of mine, David Humphries in Allianz, it was quick at the time. Allianz, two, three years ago, and it was, I think, 80 points, I forget the exact score. But I said the gap isn't as big as you think, and Ireland are closing that gap because they're beginning to invest more and more. But what the Irish people saw was what it could be, a crowd of 50, 60,000 and going, actually, are missing something because when you build it and you see what'll happen in WXV over the coming weeks, obviously starting after we get against Australia. But then he got to Canada, New Zealand and Colmar, New Zealand, 50, 60,000 and the rest in again, it's becoming consistent and then you saw the World Cup final and well, that was, it's really exciting. But I said there's a heck of a lot of work to do and I know Mitch is driven to make this group better than the group that won the World Cup at the time they get to 29. I was shocked by their levels at Tunisix Nations because I did the game out in Bordeaux and I thought if France would never have a better opportunity, then to turn over the Red Roses then. And there were so many injuries down to, so many absentees, retirements, pregnancies, all great stories, some injured and the level of that performance, I thought, oh my gosh, they've actually just gone up a gear and I could tell from chatting to some of the players and even a little bit of Mitch that whilst he has so much confidence in his team, he wasn't, I don't know, there was just maybe a nagging down perhaps that week. Final one for me, we're here at Pennyhall Park, you spent last couple of days alignment camp, how are the team and I guess, how Steve, because it's been a tough year for him and he certainly felt pressure and us as the negative committee. I don't think you are, there we go. So that was his moniker, wasn't it, for this? It was a great, we all stopped, this is the honeymoon, if you're a director of rugby, we all say, "Precious, brilliant, no one selected, no one's dropped, you haven't lost the game, you're in a pretty good place and the world's your oyster in the year ahead." We know that we've got the pressure and there is a responsibility, there is pressure, you have to embrace that, like I said, you have to embrace that you're going to have people that are going to look and mull over every single decision that's made, every single selection, it's going to be under the microscope, but he's in the coaching team in a good place but it is the honeymoon and they'll get back together and four or five weeks time for another alignment camp ahead of the Australian test and then it'll be into it, it'll be Australia, it'll be Japan, it'll be New Zealand, it'll be whatever it is, enough finals we can to because nobody knows. Great stuff, it's been brilliant to chat to you Connor, so much. We come to us once again, not in ten years, we're like in a couple of months. Where will we do it? You're going to bring me somewhere, you're going to bring me somewhere. You give us some a hole at the hem somewhere, are you okay? Just in the five five. Yes, it's been brilliant. It's brilliant to have you on. I'm free to come, loads, good to chat it forever, but thanks for all your time Connor, I hope it's a great 12 months to come. Cheers Connor. Cheers. Five lives, rugby union weekly. So thanks to Connor O'Shea for all of his time, there's loads to get up there, isn't there? There is loads, I was going to ask you, your biggest takeaways, your biggest reflections from that. Let's pick up the red roses thing, something that's a great debate, you know, are the red roses too strong and I completely see the argument which is, don't be ridiculous, they're setting the standards, but also there is the argument which I do hold that other nations aren't as equipped, so how did we get that level playing field as much as possible? The bit about Steve Hawthorke and his coach has been contracted till 2028, six nations or 2028 summer sounds like some new development and that is a new development, so their contract now will expire at the end of the 2028 six nations. So what I think Steve Hawthorke would have loved to have happened, if you're Steve Hawthorke or any coach, you get a contract extension now to cover you to 2031, for example, that's what you would want an ideal world, but they know the team has been under the pump and as much as Connor has got all that positivity, they would be low to make the mistake that Ian Richie made with Stuart Lancaster in his coaches, which is to give the mega deals only to rip them all up when the World Cup doesn't go very well. So I do see the thinking there, don't you, about not having a conversation or a narrative running right up to and through the World Cup, are these coaches going to be here tomorrow? At least they can say, right, they've got six months on their deal, and then if they need to make changes they can, and if they don't, then they can give them big extensions to the next World Cup. I think it's really, really sensible, really sensible. It gives, there are a few more time to consider all of their options. Hey, we covered the 23 World Cup, and I remember going into the semi-final where the conversation was about, this could be the coach's last game. You cannot. Which coaches? New Zealand. Oh, right, yeah. I mean, that was an example of how not to do it, because normally they have it that their assistant coach is step up, so it's quite smooth. This time they had an outsider inverted commas coming in in Robertson, and Ian Foster's there, Jordy Barra kicks the goal, he wins the World Cup and gets sacked. Of course. So, they've obviously learned from that. So I think this is a great compromise. It certainly helps the comms, the narrative around Steve Borthwick. So during the World Cup, you are just focused on the World Cup and not your job. You're also not going into a World Cup potentially having conversation of avanations and clubs as to, hey, if we lose this next match, do you think I can have a job with you? I mean, that's. I mean, that stuff is still my go on in the background with agents and stuff. It's the way the world, but no, it's a very interesting debate. It's not, though, you're happy with that? I think it makes sense, because otherwise, there are two options. One is that Steve Borthwick and his coaches get four-year contract extensions now, but given what's happened in the last six to eight months, that might not be prudent. The other option is they are at a World Cup, not know if they've got a job past the 16, past the quarterfinal, past the semi-final, past the final, which are gates. So I definitely see it. The reason I asked O'Shoe, is there a World West Steve Borthwick? Isn't the coach? Purely because it is around this time that they sacked Eddie Jones four years ago, having spent three years of that four-year cycle backing Eddie Jones to the Hilt, having some ropey six nations and backing Eddie Jones to the Hilt, and then they have a bad autumn booze run, Twickenham, Eddie's gone, and they're scrambling. So that's why I just wanted to almost ask whether Steve Borthwick has that security that he is 100% going there, even if the team doesn't go very well this autumn. It's an uncomfortable question, but I think it's a fair question. You wouldn't be alone in wondering whether that would be a scenario that the RFU would entertain, and Kodoro Shane, he speaks on behalf of himself, of course, and Bill Sweeney, the whole of the RFU, and just close that door in that conversation. That doesn't mean it's not going to be asked again, but for now, Steve Borthwick has the full backing of the RFU up until the end of the 2020-86 nations case closed. Because they sacked Eddie Jones too early or too late. Did they? Once they backed him for three of the four years, he probably should have gone to 2023, or after a few poor six nations, or that Aussie tour in the summer, which they did win, they make that call earlier to give the new man, as it was Steve Borthwick, a little bit more time, so he doesn't feel like he's firefighting. So yeah, let's see, it's the nature of the beast that if things don't go well, those questions will be asked. But I do think it's really important if you ask Steve Borthwick and you're planning, and you're looking at that training camp and you're looking to what you can do in Australia, to have the kind of backing from your bosses, which I know has been there this year, but I still haven't felt, I felt through the summer there was pressure on this group, not really. Naturally, but I just think a really aligned system means that the head coach 100% knows where they stand, and I sound like that's the case, but I think that's gotta be the case of the head coach knows exactly where they are. I think the summer feels very different to where we are right now. The conversation going into the summer was Steve Borthwick is our guy up until in fact, when did they get in the statement after Rome, they did a statement after the review, after Rome, they basically gave him almost like four games. That was it. So you can understand, like that's why sort of it's felt there's been a bit of fraughtness around, because that didn't give him sort of unequivocal backing, but had to give him some backing, blah, blah. It was part time back in, like it was up until up until a point, but he has been backed unequivocally now, rides and beyond the World Cup, and not to suggest that Steve Borthwick for a second will go and relax, but he can, I just reckon with that backing, just a little bit of pressures off, but he can be totally focused on doing what's absolutely best and necessary for the autumn, for the Six Nations in the Buddha to World Cup now. So what else, I mean the France-based story was opened up again by Courtney Laws the other day, like that's the English system. The English system, I think the whole club country relies on that ruling, but personally for what it's worth, I think it's a sensible rule that should stay. I can understand the alternative, but you know, I think that's, I think it's something that underpins the whole English rugby system. Agreed. That's why I was questioning about sabbatical, and just to clarify, to take some time out whether that's what you're doing for answer in Japan, but still allows you to be available for selection internationally. I think they could, I think they could or should be awarded out to special cases. If you've, I mean the Australians, I think, had it, but all blacks still have it, but it doesn't really work out, though, that Australian 30, I mean, Saf got a 30 cap rule under poor Alistair Cazir, and then Razzie came in and was like scrap that. Yeah, and look what's happening. I think you need clarity. I think you need one way or the other. Yeah, and South Africa, they're the example in this that it does work, but I wouldn't say that's the model that they should follow, because of everyone in world rugby, Razzie Rasmus is dealing with players that play in the UOC, in the Gallagher Prem, in Japan, and he can also farm players from France, and he somehow has to get them singing off the same hymn sheet within like a couple of weeks. It works, and then they've won the last two World Cups. Is that the model that should be cut, copy and pasted in England? Absolutely not. I just think there might be a halfway house whereby after the 2027, a player decides that they want to go and play in Japan, make himself available. That does not guarantee they'll be selected. They're just part of the play pool. Maybe they have to give up their EPS contract, but they still potentially play for England. I'm trying to find a halfway house. Yeah, weirdly the halfway house might be what Courtney's done, which is go and play Div 2. He could not play Champions Cup rugby, not play every week, like he said on the pod the other day. He wasn't available to play for England. No, he wasn't, but Richard Wunger's not been available to play for New Zealand, but he's had that sabbatical whereby he's gone and earned a load of money and not played much rugby in Japan, which might extend his all-black career in the fall of the time. If Courtney played two more years at the Saints, for example, or two more years in Top 14, there's no way he's coming still trucking a 37. They might be retired. You might be retired. What else? On the Red Rose's conversation, I think it's a really good debate. As O'Shea touched upon, there is lots that English rugby does to help other rugby nations when it comes to their women's programme, not least the coaches that are in the league and the players that are in the league. Does any of examples? Players and coaches, I think they're a great job. Hey, this is the first World Cup that the Red Rose won since 2014. It's not like their dominance on the global scale hasn't quite been there. It has driven the six nations because we have this remarkable competition that happens every single year, and there is only one dominant side, and that is the Red Rose's. So I get it. It's going to be a long-standing conversation, of course it is, but I think I've pointed to it. Last year, it's fine for now. When the Red Rose started charging £50 per ticket, then I think it's going to be a conversation that might be a little bit louder because there'll be a greater expectation. Not just what the Red Rose is, offers and supplies and the entertainment you get off the pitch, but there will be a greater investment into what that school I might be. Because I just think about Calcutta Cup at Twickenham. I think it's on the final day of the six nations. If something's on the line there, Scotland will go for a trophy. Just imagine the tension, the frees on around the place, around Twickenham, around southwest London. It's mega. You just wouldn't get that for England, Scotland, women's game, because there are so much great things, not least watching the Red Rose's play, but it's incredible every year how the men's six nations throws up this jeopardy. If you were a Martian coming down, you'd go, well, well it's only got a few million people. How can they compete? Oh well, because of XYZ, history, culture. This, I know, maybe well isn't the best example of them, but you take my point. So look, all really good stuff, good to have him on. Plenty of things to get at to think about. That was a session planning. That was good. Yeah, I did want to ask you about. Well, it's Conor Concepter under 20 players, and while Steve Balfour will have a handle on that in terms of this is what it's going to look like for you. I would love to know physically what that looks like for a coach. See, if you're a coach, fill Downsonsam Veste and your Champions of the Gallagher Prem with Northampton Saints, does Conor have conversations with them and say, well, at the moment we're in this situation with Steve Balfour, he's lined up to 2028. And if this was to happen that you might be in a run, How do you. Mae hynny, mae hyn hynny, mae hynny, mae hynny, mae hynny, mae hynny, mae hynny, mae hynny, mae hy Ys ymdwch, mae'n ymdwch yn ymdwch yn ymdwch yn ymdwch yn ymdwch yn ymdwch yn ymdwch yn ymdwch yn ymdwch yn ymdw So much together and 70 more pots to come, what are we doing next? So we've been in touch with Robbie's greatest rival series. Let's do a proper series wrap up on Monday. So the fourth and final one in Baltimore 10 o'clock Saturday night. Yeah. You see the need to go to also after 3 1 hour properly. Huge event in America. Baltimore, the rugby, Conor Ben, is fighting out there. I have big on your box in these days. Five lives, box and presenter. So I'll see you Monday. We'll do a proper RGR review and loads more besides. Yeah, we'll see. Robbie's greatest rival series. Oh, sorry. See you later. Cheers. Who am I? Thanks for downloading Rugby Union Weekly. For more info, head to the BBC Sounds app. Get more with BBC Podcasts, wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and Your Dead To Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription.