Connection, Growth, and Kindness

Welcome to the podcast embracing a life of dance. I'm your host Harman and today we have the wonderful human being George with us. Oh, that's nice. Oh, man. Don't deny it. You know it. So me and George have known each other for almost a couple of years now. Couple of years. Like I remember when I started and you were helping out and teaching and answering questions. Oh, man. And being the little role model that you always are. You're old. It's been a little. It's weird looking back at that. I look back at that girl. I feel old now and I'm newer than you guys. It's been well for you. It's been what? How long have you been crew? Like I've been crew since the year. Like I've been only I've only been crew for a year but I've been dancing since around like two and a half years. Yeah. Okay. Yeah for me. It's almost seven. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just think about that and go like seven years of dancing gives you so much time to like experience and learn and just have these wild times. Well, I everything. Yeah. No, I feel bad because I just look I think myself and even some others where we say seven years like six, seven years but on and off where we can't say because I feel like if I was consistently dancing, I feel like my skill would be much greater than where it was. And I guess we did have two years of coach. Yeah. But at the same time, I'm going to be everyone's got their own pace, you know. And got to be kind to ourselves. So I think so. And I feel wondering about why I'm for George on. It will be a lot of stuff about how to be kind to ourselves, how to acknowledge our growth. Absolutely. And how to be much more tolerant of where we are and where we're trying to go. Because I think everyone as George said has been on a bit of a path and a bit of a journey. I got to practice what I preach. Even though it does like background got a yeah. 100%. Yeah. So if anyone who joined us for the first time and I've just kind of skipped the introduction, you might be wondering, are we going to teach you a dance move or are we just going to talk about that time I went dancing and something funny happened? How about I meet you in the middle and I tell you about what dancing means to the people I have on the podcast and how we try and take it into a larger than life kind of experience. You know, it's not just about rocking up day to day. It's not a I personally believe it is not a mundane thing. That just becomes part of your weekly schedule, not a time you schedule in and have a week to take off something on your list of this is what I'm doing. So it's dancing is more than just a hobby. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's and and I'm not saying it can't be that. I just think there are many ways that it can be so much more than that. Oh, for sure. That's, you know, I think the audience here listening to this podcast already know it's more than exactly. Yeah. Like I'm doing a podcast on dancing. Did I ever think about talking about dance? Absolutely. Clearly means a lot to us if we're both here. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So I'll just like I want to introduce George properly because I kind of just it told you that this guy is sitting in this room with me who you might not be able to picture or even think about and he's been dancing for seven years. And I mean, it doesn't get any better when you say it. It doesn't. Does it? So like just give us a quick introduction. How did you discover dancing? Like okay. So I yeah, I started off at the salsa foundation and the way I got into it was I, hot geez, it was I met up with a cup some old high school friends that it was even I'd say more acquaintances. I was like, I was kind of, you know, look, I was just a shy kid. I was, you know, kind of went along with some other friends. We met up in the city. You know, we're at a bar or something and we're just chatting and then one of the one of the guys I was talking to, I think I saw some YouTube videos of salsa around before and then I just said to him, like, oh, this would be fun. Like actually trying it. Like take some classes and he goes, we're doing it. I'm like, what? He goes, yeah, I just booked us in. We're doing it. Like, wait, what the hell? And so it's sort of the boss. Yeah, he just literally right there in that moment. He jumped online. He Googled salsa. Yeah. He found free class and just booked us in and he goes, yeah, George, you're going tomorrow with me. I'm like, wow, what? So anyway, just jumped in and it was very unlike me. Very, you know, I'm back then. I was someone that was well into my comfort zone. Very shy. And I remember taking it and, you know, we're rotating around the room or I think it was goes rotating around the room and I'm like staring down at the floor and I can't look in the eye and like my shoulders are hunched on teds and I'm like, like lightly shaking. Yeah. Like I'm so pretty shy. Yeah. And. And. 100% Oh, each and one point. It's you. It's you. Look at how far you've come. I know. Yes, it's nice. When you look, yeah, all those years of, you know, change over time. It's just funny. I'm a very, very different person to how I was back then. Yeah. Yeah. I like to think grew in a good way. Amazing. Yeah. I don't think I had, yeah, again, I've only known you for two years. I can't imagine. Like it's hard. It's hard to George. Like, yeah, like, like, God, like this George is open. His friendly. He talks about himself and his confident and you want to tell me there's a version of George that isn't this amazing? Like, come on. It's fantastic. No. So like, what are we talking about teaching and how we've grown? I guess one thing I always want to talk about is like, where do you see yourself going? Or like, how do like, what's your motivation to head in a specific direction? You are now a teacher. But you also take some, do you take some private lessons with someone somewhere occasionally or regularly? I was. Yeah. So you've actually got me at a point where I'm kind of in between. So I, especially with COVID, like I started teaching kind of in between those times around when it start like the lockdowns were coming up. So it'd be like, you teach for a couple of months, then lockdown. Then teach every so often, then lockdown. And then like, you'd squeeze privates in there a little bit. And again, it's just with beginners. Yeah. Keeping it light and easy. And but then I did, I was doing some coaching with Arty. Yeah. So he's, for those that don't know, he's a, yeah, well, so it's just freaking amazing. He's insinient at the moment as as we're recording this. And with him, I was doing a lot of work on my body movement because I was, I was like, even though I could do all the moves, I still, I still felt like a bit of a robot. I'll still stiff. I called myself like, I'm still a white guy dancer. And I knew I knew I was doing something right when people were just like, "Oh, are you, are you Spanish or are you, where are you from?" Oh, yes, that's. I'm like, "A biguity comes in." It's like, okay, it's not just the hair. It's like, maybe a little bit of body movement. So I took that as a compliment. But like, yeah, I'm at the point to answer your question where he's gone to Sydney. I've just kind of put, you know, put that on pause for a bit. Yep. Right now, I think dance halls have just opened up again. So I'm keen to just go back social dancing and remind myself of the reason why I do dance and enjoy it. So far teaching, so far, I want to get back into social dancing. And then I want to work on my body movement again and like, kicking out from there. Awesome. Yeah, I have to agree. Some of us had that reason to dance. You know, you had that social dance. So you had that I'm going with friends and I think some of us have forgotten that lately. COVID has put such a hold on it. And that's why it was hard, like practicing in front of a mirror. When you've got no, you know, like, yeah, incentive. Exactly. Yeah, you really need to be able to fuel yourself and get that a little bit of a social reward, you know? Yes, that's it. Let's just like get to the nitty gritty because I think if anyone's going to be familiar with how this podcast is going, you'll notice the guests I have on, I love to focus on a very specific aspect of their lives, of their dance lives. And something that I feel is valuable and worth sharing. Not that anything else isn't worth sharing. Yeah. I think there's a lot of experience I want to get into. Yeah. So for those of you wondering, George, would you like to explain to us what your current career choice is? This way I got you in here. That's why George is here with us today. So my background is I'm a psychologist. So I, you know, I work at a clinic and, you know, I see youngest has been four years old, oldest, I think, 77. So I work with a wide range of people and age groups. And, you know, in terms of the things that I work with, you know, you've got depression, anxiety, stress, anything, anything and everything you can think of, like personality disorders, ADHD, grief, anything you can think of. Yeah. Where, you know, we act as generalists there. And yeah, I guess we can explain how that comes into. I guess yes. Like on a, on a really basic level, it's like, I think the first thing we all have to accept and reward ourselves on is the fact that anyone who started this journey has taken that step out of their comfort zone. That's true. Yeah. And we have to accept that not only is it a big step, but it's like it's worth celebrating and it's worth not giving up on it and not being hard on ourselves when you're doing something new and you don't find yourself being at the level or at least finding yourself being embarrassed of like, "Ah, dang, I'm not quite good enough or I look awkward in front of everyone else." Like, so I guess share us with some of your experiences. Like, what are your thoughts on how we benefit? Like, how we, like, the biggest like changes that we notice in person to person. Like, I guess, I guess there's a couple things like to touch on there. Like, one is like your perception of yourself. and how you should be with other and the other is like the growth and the journey and everything. So I guess like, you know, again, dancing can be a humbling experience, but then, you know, obviously ego comes into it as well. So look, there's multiple things here. I'll try to do one at a time, but definitely, I think the first thing we notice anxiety comes up. Like, I've got an example with that myself. Like, when I started, I was very shy. I was very anxious. I couldn't make eye contact with people through this day. Through this day, that still happens. Yes. So, you know, and even like, if I'm dancing with a really, I know there are really high level dance-up. It gets no matter how long we've been dancing for, it still gets us. Yeah. I have those comfort, but like high level dances, where I can just let it flow. And then you find the person who's been scaring you in that room. Yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, okay, I have to do it now. I'm at a high, you know, like, you're a pretty good person. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Absolutely. And it's funny, like, seeing that now as in the teacher position, where I'm like, I used to be like this. We're like, the students like looking down, like shaking, can't look you in the eye. I'm like, yeah, this was me. And then when you see it replicated from someone else, yeah, it's just, it's funny. It's humbling. But yeah, I need to go back to answering the questions. Sorry, I got a little bit around about. What are those things that you feel like go unnoticed? Like, as you said, confidence is obviously great. Right. When I go week to week, I don't think about, all right, today I've learned one new move. I'm going to be 5% more confident as a person. Yeah. I get you. That goes unnoticed. And a year later, I looked back at people, I had a humbling experience where someone I taught recently, he said, you look so confident when you, like, when you're like teaching, I'm like, dang. How good is it feeling? I remember, I think I swear, I think it was, but even my own mom watching a video of dancing. I think it was like the last performance. And she goes, you look so much more relaxed. And I'm like, oh, that, thank you. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's the small things. I think what I think of in terms of if we're selling to people, and I'm kind of, you can't see it, but I'm doing like kind of the high-fit A-box. That's the thing is. That's the quote A-max. The quote A-max, yeah. Like, I kind of think to myself, like, okay, what gives you that high or that amazing feeling when you dance? Right. It's different for everyone, right? But I think of the, what Arditore has taught before is the connection triangle, right? Which is, imagine, if you can imagine, you've got the me, like us, we connect to the music, right? We're dancing with another person, right? We also connect to them, and then they also connect to the music. So there's three points. Okay, to the music on my part, they connect to the music on their part, and we connect with each other. Right. Now, when you get those amazing dancers, where you're like in the flow state, and you're just absolutely feeling it, that's when the connection triangles on point. You're both connecting to each other, and you're both connecting to the music. There are times where you can dance with someone, and they can be like an amazing dancer, right? And it just might be, you might not be vibing the music, they might not be vibing the music, or there's just something wrong in that triangle. That bit, yeah. But the main priority should be connecting with the partner, no matter what it is. 100%. Yeah. Yeah, like we get caught up. I get so caught up. I'm like, "Dae, let me pull out these new moves. Let me like, this person doesn't quite get what I'm trying to do." Or we're not, like, I want to like do something flashy. I want to have something fun or like, and you forget like the connection. Like it's just a take a step back and go. Like I could be having a much better dance if I just focus on the connection. And look, I struggled with that for a while, and there was actually this really great experience where it took dancing with a friend. Like if I can share something really quickly, it's like a red entangipit. That's what I'm watching you for. No, but like, so there was one night I hadn't gone social dancing in a while, right? And I, you know, I went again and, you know, saw familiar faces there as we do in the dancing. And but the, it was like a Latin party, but it wasn't exactly social dancing music. It was more social dancing at like a Latin party sort of scene. There is a difference. - Right, there is. - There actually is, yeah. - And like the DJ mixes it up, you know, and it's- - The reggaeton comes on. - The club music comes on. - There's different things. There was like Seltson Bachata, but anyway, at this place, I was like, I knew I wasn't the only one. There were a bunch of us, we were just like, "Well, we're just not vibing this guy, "like he's cool, but we're not vibing this style song." But, you know, and I was like, just trying to dance, but when I wasn't connecting to the music, clearly. So then I danced with a friend, and I hadn't seen her in so long, and you know, she's really lovely. Shout out to Rose, if you're listening. - Yeah. - And I ended up saying to her, like I was actually the kind of frustrating, I'm just like, I'm just not vibing this road. It's like, what's going on? And she just goes, let's just focus on dancing with each other, and just enjoying it as much as we can. - True. - And I'm like, yeah, okay, keep it simple, right? And that's, so I focused on connection with my partner. And then she just turned my night around. - Like amazing. - Something so simple. - Just like, dude, just chill, just dance. - Dude, you're here to do. And yeah, I ended up finding a bit more of a connection to the music of just, but making my primary, focusing on my partner. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Like, it's just such a thing that gets forgotten. - Yeah. - I feel like sometimes we struggle with it because, well, personally, I know if I'm struggling with it, it's literally that anxiety coming over. - Yeah. - You can't quite look at them. You're distracting. I get like, I think a lot of people will experience this, like on their first few nights out, is there is such a thing as like sensory overload? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You've got the smell, the sweat, the heat of the room. - This is fun. - You have their noise. I'm just like, it's just like another sensation on top of the noise. - Yeah. - Of the people talking, the people dancing, the people laughing, and the music, and the lights. - This is something. - And then you've got to have like a small talk conversation in between dancing. And you're like, it's like, I don't know about you, but for me, it's like halfway my batteries out. I'm like, that's what I remember. Oh yeah, George, you were a bit of an introvert before. Like, and I'm having small talk, and it's still like, you're still waiting for the song to be exact. - Exactly. - Oh, I love that you brought up the introvert thing because compared to social dancing, when you're reliant on your energy and how you feel off of the night to keep it going. So like, as you mentioned, as an introvert, I think I'm generally, I don't know if there is such a thing as flicking back and forth, but there are definitely some times where I get fueled by the people and where they wear a mat, and then having that time alone is actually draining me. But it's like, I've definitely experienced the other where I've been out, and it's just like, it's exhausting, and I need that time alone to get it back. - Yeah, bit of an ambivot, I feel similarly. Like, sometimes we can just different nights. We can just be like, okay, my tank is just really small right now, and I can't, I can't do it. But then there are times where I like, yeah, when we're home, and I'm like, I wanna go out, I wanna dance. I wanna, you know, I feel like I'm going through that lately. (laughing) And even to the point of think, what are you avoiding here, George, like sitting at home, like, you're not able to be alone, I'm just like, I'm just so bothered, agitated, I just wanna move. - Yeah. - And that's, you know, is unlike me. I think I used to be used to recharging. I don't know, maybe it's coming out of lockdown, you know? - Yeah, I think that's honestly one of the biggest things I think about lately is like, how has lockdown impacted our lives and how we normal, not just like, what we do on a day to day basis, but like, how we've actually changed as people in what our needs are. - Yeah. - Like, my need for that interaction actually died down a lot the first few months I came out of lockdown. So, 2020 as a whole year was a year of minimal interaction in terms of what I needed from people. - Yeah. - I had a way too much time to myself, and I just ran with it. - Yeah. - The way I've been these last two months, I've been running around doing this, that, seeing people, and I've been needing it more and more, and part of it could, like I think a part of it is, that long lockdown settled me into a slow phase. - That's, yeah. - And then we got out, and I started appreciating all the social behavior again after a long time. - We lost it for a year. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. We calibrate to the environment around us, 'cause like, I was even thinking to myself, how did I go through a year or two years of all these lockdowns? And I was like, I coasted through, but then when I did my seven day ISO, like when I actually got COVID, that was, that sucked. I felt that, I really felt that, 'cause I think that's when we came out of lockdown, I had like, you know, that socializing and everything, coming back, my battery's kind of like opened up a bit more, like, oh yes, we can socialize, we can do that again. And then it's like, then when you cap it again, you feel it. - Oh, yeah. - How are our opposition? - Yeah, you're right. People dropping left and right. I got it, yeah, I got it new year'sy. - You did, that's right. - So it was like, it was like every time. - Scots, scotting, scotting. - Everyone got it, I think it was like a week before. - That boxing day week, like that Christmas boxing week. - Yeah, but it's a bit, - Even I remember dropping stuff off to a friend, like, you know, to help him because he was in ISO. So it was like, I was waiting for my dance mates to get out. And then when they got out, I had to go in ISO. And then it just felt like a month of just Nazi. - Yeah, it really did. It really did feel like you were seeing your friends and you seeing someone disappear, someone coming, someone going, someone coming, someone going. - Yeah, that's it, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - Dude, yeah. But like, yeah, back to the introversion thing, like, I always wonder, like, what is something we can be doing to be more understanding and more responsible for ourselves? Like back in the state where I was a very introverted person, was pushing myself out of my comfort zone, which is great. But I was not respecting my needs as an introvert. I guess if you want to get more into that, I wasn't taking that time off and having quality time off. I was never refueling in an effective manner. So for like in a metaphorical way, if my battery was being drained when I went out, I'd never refueled it. I just kind of sat there at a low battery and just went out again with less and less and less over time. And then you just like, no, she'd still keep pushing. Right. You know, keep pushing, keep pushing, keep pushing comfort zone. And it's like, this is, this is where I kind of, um, the whole, I don't know if hustle culture comes into this. This is where balance comes into us. I know it's such a, I think probably overused word, but clearly from what you're telling me, you weren't listening to yourself at the time, at least you, at least you're only paying attention to certain parts of what you were doing at the time. And a handy thing with like lockdown is that it forced that it forces. It takes an existing problem and puts it in front of you. It's something that we were always kind of, we weren't paying that much attention to. We could coast by we were ignoring it. And then just puts it in front of you. And oh, I have to pay attention to it now. But with what you were saying with the, um, introversion thing and listening to your body as we, as I say to my clients, um, how, when do you know you need to load down important point, um, and this, so I guess if other friends are telling you, hey, dude, you need to slow down. What does that say about how you're behaving at the moment for other people around you to say that? I guess, but I feel like there's a voice in us internally. That's like saying, your body, look, I say with what I say to my clients, with any emotion where it comes to fear, sadness, anger, whatever it is, I have clients that come in there like, I shouldn't be feeling this. This is a negative emotion. And I'm just like, if someone dies and you're sad, I think you should feel sad. So I'm kind of like your body is telling you something for a reason. It's giving you a signal. Listen to the signal and act appropriately according to the signal as much as you can. So when, when it comes to how do we, all right, like let's bring this back to dancing then, right? So a kind of saying, how do I know when to push? Yeah. And how do I know when I need to take a step back? Because it's not always, it's not always physical. You know, it's not like, he don't just go seven days straight and then go, oh, my legs are tired. I should take a break. I feel like other stuff ties out mentally and emotionally as well. Like you drain out. I just go, not. Yeah. I got this lots of, there's lots of things I can say about this. Right. So because when I started, right? And I know it sounds, this seems like a bit of a tangent, but I think this happened to you and you started as well. And please correct me if I'm wrong. We have this point where the obsession got large. That's the hype phase. It's that high phase where you are improving week by week, where you are making new friends, you are socializing, you are going out and having those nights, memorable nights. Absolutely. And the problem is we fell into this state of like the nonstop streak. You know, like personally, I think I hit like 16 or 17 days straight. I was either at classes doing a little dance afterwards and practicing. I was having actual practice and training sessions or I was just social dancing. Yeah. Every single night for almost, I think it was either 16 or 17 days straight. And I know people who go for seven to 14 days, other people who go for a month, not like, why is that a thing? Like how do we handle that addiction to growth? Then this interaction, how do we, how do we balance that out? Loaded question, like where do we get that balance in our lives? What do you think people get so hooked on that? So well, I reckon I think when you're starting, I know this sounds a bit, that probably this sounds a bit strange, especially coming up with like orders, but ride the hype. Like you, you're getting, well, technically, like we're getting excited for a reason, right? We're like, well, there's, here's this new thing that I'm getting good at. Like I'm making all these friends, all these connections. Like I, they'd be one of us that would go to the DJ. Like you put on some Latin music, you'll have a great time, watch this. And then we just, we get everyone going. Yeah. And like anyway, with that, yeah, like enjoyed the hype phase, as we call it, whatever we're kind of calling it. And eventually, yeah, eventually people kind of, it's loads of it. It's like you hit a bit of a plateau. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, I'm actually tired. What's happening? And I, that's when we start to hit, okay, take a bit of a rest, but it's not going anywhere. We go back, right? I think we just got a reminder that I was like, for me, it was, I'm going to use as a segue to get into a deeper topic. I love it. But for me, it was definitely my personal needs of interaction with people. What do you think it is about dance specifically? Like do you think, for me, I think it's, for example, I think it's like things like love languages, things like what we consider our basic needs of social interaction and stuff. Yeah. So this is like a good question, like generally thinking about how, why do people connect to dance? Why do we do what we do? Why do we enjoy it? Because I could make the argument like thinking about the love languages. Yeah. Like you said, so yours is like physical. I think I would rank highest. That's the highest. Yeah. So I think if my top two is probably, yeah, physical affection and words of affirmation, the other three is acts of service, quality time and gift giving. So, but I could easily make an argument that for any, for all the follows, all the leads that we have encountered on the dance floor, they're all going to have different ones. Yeah. I think, I think like my last dance partner had, like, I was like quality time and I think, yeah, acts of service or something like that. And again, so it doesn't mean I'm not saying, yeah, it doesn't mean that the affection, physical affection is going to be everyone's love language when dancing. Because you know, when we think about it, like again, connection triangle, some people connect more to the music. They just want to vibe. Yeah, I've seen that. Yeah. I think we all have seen those people like the dance floor who I could already like, think of people pop up. And you just kind of, they just do that. Yeah. And it's like, I don't know, as someone who's, whose connection with their partner comes before the music, not that it's not the truth. Trying. Emphasis, I'm trying to practice what I preach a lot for the people that know me. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's like a bizarre to me that like this, the people who can do that. I actually, I think I have this like kind of pedestal kind of thing because as someone who kind of craves attention and physical touch and like actual interaction with a human being. Yeah, yeah. So it's really as the, this triangle of connection that you're talking about actually becomes so much more important for me to consider on my side. And I'm sure there were people like me who either have started this salsa, but charter dancing or partner dancing for the music. But I think of last majority will have discovered a connection connection. How do you bring up the, how do you start appreciating the music more and not just your partner? Straight up. I remember like our instructors are, he said this before. He's like, because we've had like boy groups and like girl groups and everything. And he just goes, guys, why did you start? And then straight up, like guys just like the girls, of course, like let's, let's be honest, right? There are a lot of, you know, I think a lot of why people start, you know, it's fun. It's you can do it with a, you know, you do it with a partner and obviously it's great to meet people. Yeah, but those who stay, what separates them, you know what I mean? Those who stay like the, like the guys that went just for the girls, they don't last. Yeah, where do you think that cutoff point is? How long do you think it takes going from going from the changing your reasons to stay or discovering a true passion? I think that applies to anything. Like, you know, you have that phase of a new hobby or new interest where it's all fun and games. And then you find a challenging point that makes you re-change making it a real passion. So yeah, when does this become going from hobby to lifestyle? I guess yeah. Yeah, there's time back to dance and how you can find that transition. Like, because then, you know, it goes to the definition like, oh, I'm a dancer now. Right. Of course. Yeah. I think it goes from, you got to look at the time you're investing. Yeah. I think it's those people that feel the height phase, as you're saying, they're like, that's the in it. And they're in it for multiple reasons in terms of connecting with people, making friends, enjoying the music, having fun. But the ones in it for alternative reasons that may not be that, you know, you probably see won't be lasting as long. They eventually get to the point of like, oh, this isn't getting me what I want. The way I see it, a lot of people who might listen to this podcast beyond our lovely friends who are supporting us and want to hear more about more of us. I think a lot of people who are discovering this podcast and might not know us and are newer. Yeah. I hitting that point of, you're now thinking of this is becoming challenging. I'm at a point where I'm not just doing something for like an hour a week. I am doing two, three hours. I'm going out. I want to improve. I've got that desire to improve. But like, oh, it's hard. Why do I want to go through it? Why would I take that challenge? Well, this is going to be a little bit more of an investment than I originally signed up for. Do I do it? That comes up. I think people learn as they go to be honest. Why, you know, because that's something you have to ask yourself, especially when you plateau. I've had that, right? Multiple times over the years. Why am I still dancing? What's the point in this? What am I actually getting out of it? And I've had to really ask myself, why am I enjoying this? Why did I start in the first place? What's the point? Because there are people that they find someone, make a connection, and then they disappear. But you know what? Fair enough. Absolutely. Hey, at the end of, I think it's like, at the end of the day, as long as you're, this is around, it dances to everyone to enjoy. So now they're going to have something where, if those two people got married and raising a family together or whatever, they can dance in the kitchen. Or when they sometimes, if they feel like it, they can go out for a social dance. And then I'd off, like cool. It's different things for everyone, but yeah, there's a lot I can say when it comes to. I think it's a neat little reminder that you put that up. It's like, it is not a thing that you'll find yourself forcing yourself to do back and back, week and week out, month in, month out. It is something you drop for a few years, you get busy with other parts of your life, and then you meet someone or you just have some time and you think back and you're like, "Oh yeah, not only did I do that, but it's a little thing you can bring back." It's a little way you can kind of like. Yeah. This is the thing that I did. This is a memory and an actual experience. It feels like, you know, the whole, that thing, like riding a bike. Yeah. You know, you can drop off for three years, four years, and then just pick up a class again, you're like, "Oh yeah." And it comes back. Sure, you're not going to be anywhere near the level that you were before, but you're muscle remembers. Yeah. And you pick back up. I'm assuming you'd agree with me on this. COVID, you'd say, brought a lot of people back into the scene, would you say? That time off has made people go, "Dang, how do I socialize again?" I know. Dancing. Yeah. I think there's some people where they got a bit antsy. Some people that like, "Oh, I want to take a break for a bit." Maybe back when things are settled, like, you know, other all, both work. You know, just trying to have a general abundance mindset with like, you know, when it comes to going back to dancing. And just it, abundance mindset in general, like, after lockdown. Like, I think everyone's feeling a bit rusty. Yeah. So hey, look, not everyone. A lot of, I don't want to make a generalization there. But like, you know, I think it's okay if you're feeling a bit rusty, like, both actual dancing wise and so realizing. I think that's the greater one, right? Like, it's great if it's totally acceptable if you're a bit rusty on your movies, but like, you don't forgive yourself if you come back and suddenly you don't really know how to talk to people again. It's hard to be kind to us all. In general, and especially with dancing. And it is an ongoing thing that I'm working on myself. It can be tough. We are at our own worst critic. I know this from my work. I know this from dancing. I know it from personal experience. Absolutely. I mean, like, I look at that and go, I am learning. I think we all need our learning. And it's like, I am not only being my harshest critic. I've just been the absolute hater. Like, you know, to be a critic is like, fuck you, I'm in real life. Maybe that's more of a personal thing, but like, I think, sometimes we forget that it's not just, you're not just like criticizing something you're doing right or wrong. You're just hating for no reason. It's like, you know, it's not like, you might not even have done anything wrong. And you're just like, oh, just, just shit. Just shit house. Just have a shit car. I gotta get good, good, good. Like, you're gonna have that gay group mentality, you know? Oh, so, so, so, do it. Like, it's like, I could, there's so many things I could say. I'll bring out something fun because this is something that I think we both want to have a little bit of a chat about. OK. You mentioned earlier about having humbling experiences. And how do you find your interactions changed when you went from a dancer to a teacher or being having that kind of image of people from my people around you? Like, OK, so I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna be as transparent as I can here. When I still, like, I feel like I've been humbled over the years, I still consider myself very much like into me dancer. I mean, even though I'm technically teaching beginners, I don't see myself as an advanced dancer or anything like that. And that's also on, look, you could make, you could go into a big conversation about the scene in Melbourne versus the scene in Sydney versus the scene in, you know, across different countries. We cannot, this country cannot compare to, like, our scene definitely, you know, needs to be compared to the rest of the world. But anyway, that's a different conversation. In terms of ego, for myself, especially being, for us being at a school designed for beginners, right? Like, it's designed to get people from who have no dance experience to beginners and onwards, right? I especially found like for a good while a couple of years ago, made me a bit longer, there was a bit of dancing for the ego, like, where, how many flashy moves can I pull out? Like, wanting to impress people and like, and I was looking more at the audience than I was my actual partner I was social dancing with. And it took, I, and I like, I had to like ask myself, what are you, George, what are you doing? What is the point of you social dancing? Like, are you dancing with this person or are you putting on a show for other people? Yeah. Right? And look, if you're performing, yeah, you're putting it in a show. But not in, not when you're social dancing. Yeah, you're there to kid. That's why I was saying before, connect with your partner, enjoy the, what you're doing, the dance. Like, they, this is why there's so many, I guess, arguments out there about like, they would rather you do basic moves good and connect with them than pulling out all these flashy things. So anyway, I think that was a big thing for me, right? To be humble and really think about, you know, what am I dancing for? At the end of the day, the people you're impressing there on the night, there's a good chance you might not see them again. Like, happens, you know, especially when you're someone who goes out and travels and hits all the socials. Yeah. Yeah, it's going to be, you know, you got to think about that. That's it's, yeah, look, it's, it's priorities. But yeah, I, so I reflect on that, some of those experiences and I, yeah, over, over the years, I'm like, no matter what level, no matter how good you are, you're there to dance with another human and connect with them. Obviously, yeah, just about sums up like some of the most important things to me right now. I think a lot of us who are listening and a lot of people like me are actually, George, I think, is someone who's come around to that experience of learning that connection with the partner. Not only does it take you experiencing that connection to know what it is, but also wanting that and realizing the importance of it. I don't think I really had for the longest time, but I don't think I really had those real connections and dance and I definitely didn't have them and tell you what you're looking for, you know, I think you can't always find stuff that you're not looking for. We definitely have, you know what, there's definitely people out there who go, you know, if you just stop looking so hard, maybe it'll come your way. But you know, if you want, if you know what a good connection can do and you understand the importance of it, maybe you'll pay more attention and you'll get it a little faster because it's something that is only gonna make it better and better as you go. How do you know if you have an experience to it yet? - Exactly. - Like, and what would you say to people who are listening or just anyone, if you were telling someone, like, hey, look, I had a great connection with someone and you go and he goes, what do you mean? Like what does that mean? Would he just make a lot of eye contact? Like what do you think is good connection? - That's such a lot of questions. - No, I like it. That's really good. What is connection? What is a real connection? Do we go into just dancing? - I think we're to leave it to a little bit of dancing. And then if you tangent off a little bit, we'll tangent off, but let's see how we can find a connection to explain. - Okay, I think of connection, obviously eye contact. - Okay. - I feel like it comes into, I hope this isn't a bit of a wanky thing to say. (laughing) It's funny because you can make eye contact and still not have a connection. - Yeah. - Right. It's when, like I said, with that connection triangle, when all three points are hit, and it's kind of like you resonate with each other. I don't know if that's the right word, but like it's almost like you're in this flow state of breathings in sync, the movements in sync, everything is just working so smoothly. And yeah, it's difficult to describe, isn't it, when it comes to a good dance connection? - Honestly. I think it takes a little bit of time and experience, and it just takes a bit more awareness of your partner. - Maybe also when it's yourself. - Oh yeah, actually. - Yeah, but both, 'cause look, you can get a good dance connection, like social dancing with someone you've, you know, you're a stranger. You've never met before, right? This is the whole thing of dancing, being like a universal language, right? - Yep. - And both two strangers, you both take each other's hands, and you start moving to all the sounds and the beeps and the loops and all that. - Yeah. - Different instruments. And it's. - I think it's time to think about. - Yeah, I think probably are asking a lot of people that jump on this podcast as well. What does connection mean to you? What does, how do you connect with someone, like on the dance floor? And I think people kind of talk about kind of that flow state or focus state. It's almost as if like, you get so focused and in the zone and just, you present. You're just so present. - I think so. - Mindful. - I could go into mindfulness, whatever. But like, yeah. - It's all stuff to think about, isn't it? - I think that kind of, that actually was a fantastic time for me. And always you can tell if it's just kind of flown by and it's just been having a good time. One of the big things that like I wanna, if I'm summarizing is what I really loved about having you on and what I wanted to make sure was, sharing with people is that dancing is more than a physical and mentally tasking thing. Like it is not just a way to activate your brain. It's not a way to challenge your mind or your body to see if you can, if you have that control to do that thing. It's a way to grow who you are as a person. It's a way to discover new things about yourself. And I guess come to terms with things that you might have not noticed or you realize you don't like. I think, I guess I just again reflecting on Dance Journey on who I was before, who I am now. Yep, very, very different people. Right? I still have, I think for both of us, we can still say, oh, I've still got like my introverted battery life here in there. But like, when it comes to, I think some of those extroverted things like going out, connecting with people, you know, getting energy from other people, et cetera. When I think of teaching, it is a skill, right? True. Like, confidence technically is also a skill. Like, you work on it, whatever the craft is, you get more confident doing that thing. If that's talking to other people, if that's dancing, is it any other hobby that you're interested in? Yeah. Like, you get more confident, you get better at the thing. Absolutely. There are moments where, no matter how good you are, at that thing, you doubt yourself. That creeps in. This is universal, not just dancing can be anything. It's okay, I guess, I think I'm trying to say, it's okay to question yourself, it's okay to doubt yourself, just try to be kind to yourself. And as a big, cool message to get out of this, it's like, learn to be kind to ourselves, most importantly, to ourselves. I, and look, yeah, I can go on and on with a different, like, more psychology outlook. Well, hey. Luckily for us, George has left to say, and he knows what he's talking about. (laughs) Yeah, yeah. I think, I think what George is trying to say, he needs to implement what he says in his own life, but I still think, look, for, and, look, we practice what we preach as much as we can. But like, yeah, I have lots of things to say. Like, you know me, like, so. (laughs) It's all good. Well, anyway, so if anyone wants to talk to you about this stuff, George, it's you have lots to say. Where do we find you? Where about, where do you go dancing? What are your scenes and, where do you teach? You look, so, yeah, Havana and I are both at the salsa foundation. Other than that, on, I guess, if you wanna PM me or message me, like @gflow on Instagram, gphlo, or you'll see, probably you'll be like friends of friends like mutual. Yeah, social media is probably all like that. Very likely if you're in the scene with us, you'll definitely find some mutuals. Yeah, yeah. But otherwise, like, yeah, if you see me, come say hi, if you see Havana. You think so, yeah. A big cool message is we are not scary people, especially if you haven't had us talk for the last 20 minutes, we are very scared people sometimes. (laughs) We're like spiders, except, we weren't hurt, you're not, no, that's a terrible example. 'Cause I was just like a racquet of pho bacon, they're like, I get into all kinds of aspects. That was the part where. I thought we'd wrap it up like a spider. Oh god, oh god. (laughs) Honestly, I think I have, oh, you know, Paul and Jess are putting up with that joke. Oh, no, that was great. No, like, we're gonna reflect on this already, be like, what was the spider thing? (laughs) (laughs) Yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure. It's been so much fun. I'm really glad you were here, man. Thanks for sharing all this stuff with you. Very much for having me was fun. Keen to always chat. Shit. Absolutely. Well, yeah, any closing remarks you'd say, George? Be kind to yourself. Absolutely. I think, I think we'll definitely, that's one way to take it away. Dense and be kind to yourself, that's it. That's it. Thanks for listening. And we'll see you next time. See ya.