Connected: In Our Own Way feat. Jacqueline Balsamo | Mental Health Month

Welcome to Connected, a special mental health month series from Mankind, the podcast. Inspired by this year's theme, a little connection goes a long way. I'm Liz, your host and throughout this series will explore what connection means through the experiences of many different people, how we connect with ourselves, others and with the communities around us. Each story is unique, but they all share a common thread. We need connection, to feel safe, to feel accepted, to belong, to be loved. Even the smallest moment of genuine connection can make a meaningful difference. This is Mankind, the podcast, and this is Connected. Today I'm joined by Jacqueline Balsamo, a mother of two, author and advocate for neurodiversity and inclusion. In this beautiful conversation, Jackie shares how her journey of understanding and supporting her autistic son Nicholas became a journey of understanding herself. We explore the different ways we experience and express connection, the role of our nervous systems and how becoming more aware of our own patterns, expectations and responses can transform the way we connect with our children and those around us. We also talk about the importance of advocating for children's individual needs, particularly within our education system and why connection doesn't always have to look the way we expect it to. What I really love about this conversation is a reminder that when we approach ourselves and others with curiosity, rather than judgment, we create more opportunities for understanding, acceptance and connection. So whether you're a parent and educator or someone wanting to better understand yourself and others, I hope this conversation encourages you to see connection through a slightly different lens. Let's get into my conversation with Jackie and Light. Welcome Jackie, to my kind the podcast. Thank you so much for being here today to share your story and your perspective for this very special mental health month series called Connected and we are talking today about what connection looks like for you and for your family and having a child who is autistic and how so much of what you have learnt throughout your time being a parent has really shaped your understanding of regulation, connection, safety and how much of that comes down to you as an individual. But thanks for being here. I'm so honoured to be here not only on my kind but to be part of this series because I think it's really important that we bring attention and focus on two areas of mental health that exist and are so prevalent in society that you know but sometimes they just go out and notice and I'm you know when I was reflecting back on what are the core ideas and and experiences I wanted to relay in this episode it it really all came down to how much of my experience with my children especially my youngest autistic son was the catalyst for me to become a better version of me down to the practical which is I changed my whole career path to follow a more purpose driven path but it all started with them and it all started when I was willing and brave enough to let them teach me some things and I think it's as a parent it's such an interesting reflection because when you become parents and you are so unaware of what it was it's going to be like you you know you prepare for for birth and for all of those really initial things but you don't know how it's going to unfold looking after these little people and I think you think that you're going to be the one and it's your job to teach them to guide them to show them how to be a good human and it's definitely part of the role and also like you have said they teach us so much and if you are willing to reflect on yourself and look inside you can become a better version of yourself in honor of your children exactly I I went through exactly that I took many years though it wasn't an overnight situational transformation my transformation took place over many years and I think as you know as young adults you know leading into adulthood and starting a family and I'll get him married and starting a family the typical journey that you go through so much of it is you know the tools and the influences that have shaped your upbringing how you see yourself your identity that's formed over those many many years your habits your thought patterns your all of it all of it that makes you you at that time in your life you bring that all into a relationship and then you bring that all into a family dynamic and sometimes and I think most times if we're willing as adults having children will uncover things about you that lay dormant and only needed an opportunity to really come out and I think that's all the good stuff that sometimes you just talk yourself out of or you rationalize away and they that process enables you to get closer to yourself as a human and what you like what you don't like not because this person said I like this or like that or parenting you do it this way do it that way initially you go through that process and you do it kind of a romantic pilot but then I guess you get to a place where where my husband and I did where we had our second son who's eight years old now and his name's Nicholas and he he just he decided when he came into this world no that's not how it's gonna be no you parented Alexander which is my oldest in a particular way and we thought okay we did all right we learned from that experience it's taken time to be you know you say no no we're not gonna do things this way so I must say though there was a bit of pushback and from me and early on in his diagnosis he was probably about three maybe three and a half when behaviors started to present themselves that I couldn't understand and when he was dysregulated I'd become dysregulated and there was this sort of push and pull push and pull pushing pull that was happening with us ultimately me trying to find out why he wasn't doing something a particular way maybe at that time or why he didn't want to eat when I knew that he had to eat he hadn't eaten all day or we go to the shop to just buy a few things and why was he not okay with a trip to the shops and I think all the questions that I used to ask at the time was why is in why is this not easier why is this not the way it happens for that person over there and that person over there and that parent over there at the playground that can just take their kids for an hour and they can go and you know the playgrounds they babysitter that's great and they get to chat to their friends and like why what is going on and I learnt quickly that I needed to remove the surface level and go underneath, and I need. really dig deep into why he was reacting the way he was reacting. I needed to know why this didn't feel good to him and why he couldn't stand in a line for five minutes. Why this playground made him so unhappy and I dug deeper and what I discovered was fire out to go deeper onto him into him. I had to go deeper into myself. I just had to. We are human beings. We're made up in the similar fashion. There's all sorts of stuff that's going on inside in our nervous system in our brain that's happening automatically and some of that stuff is preconditioned and some of that stuff is just purely out of survival and he was very much in survival because there was so many challenges facing him in that moment that we can't, you know, there was so many, it could just be down to the lighting or the sound or the the commotion or the difficulty of the playground sometimes or he couldn't tell me or understand that he needed to go to the bathroom in that moment so the feelings are bodily signals that he was receiving. It just wasn't, he wasn't understanding that would then make him irritated and frustrated and but ultimately there was so much going on that was driving, his reactions, his behaviors and look if you're going to dig deep into the nervous system and the brain and what's happening in these bodily signals that we all have you have to understand yourself. You have to understand why you reacted that way. So there's moments that I spoke about before as parents when we feel shame and guilt sometimes dig dig a little bit deeper and get curious and and he made me get curious so curious about what's underneath and I had no choice but to look in mirror when I was doing so and look overlay that with lack of verbal language. I had no choice but to communicate with him or find a way to communicate with him outside of verbal language and when you do that and because you have so much love for this human being and you just want them to be happy you start to get so attuned to what they're trying to communicate to you in a particular moment. Body language, reactions, patterns, sounds and then when he developed language it was just one word and no one could interpret any of those things but me. Not even my husband. So when we talk about connection this child came into my life to make me feel a connection that I haven't had ever before. It the connection goes to a soul level with him because I can read him. The moment I allowed myself to I could read him I he didn't even need to do one thing and I knew what he needed it and you know I think it's part in parcel of naturally being a curious person so I didn't didn't shy away from that opportunity for growth but I can understand how difficult it can be in that situation for some parents especially when they've got so many demands of them but I guess the message I want to relays if you give yourself an opportunity to be able to open yourself to what reveals itself in that mirror. It really is life changing and life changing to connections to everybody and not just Nicholas. It changed the way we connect it as a family because rather than having friction and being constantly pushing against pushing pushing pushing and forcing an outcome and getting so annoyed and you know it didn't go a particular way we learnt to flow and our flow is down to practical things like we have some non-negotiables that we know just to keep peace everywhere for everybody but it's the it's we all know in our house that we all each have a role to play and for some time I thought the role was just on me to support him to support Nicholas. Yeah yeah it was as his kind of primary care I was there all the time with him but it was more than that my husband brings something to the mix that I can't give Nicholas and sometimes it is the type of play that they have you know it's that a different sense of safety that my husband brings to the mix and and the connection between him and I because I know if I have to leave he's there he's got it and it's that he knows he knows I know Nicholas knows we all know and then my older son the connection he has with him is to play like kids play and that's what Nicholas craves to have friends to play to laugh to be silly and my older son is so amazing at doing that for him and he's got such a beautiful spirit I was I think I was blessed with an older son like that because of what was going to unfold in my life but they play and then you know what happens they make us play so then between it we're playing and you know what I leave the dishes and a leave that email that I have to send and I look at the time oh it's quite positive you know and I let go of that because ultimate what's happening nothing bad connection hide and seek yes connections through hide and seek all running around in circles or you know making us sit there and he's going to perform for us and we all have a role to play in his performance like we've all done that all of us we've had to replay a scene of blui we we all had we were all a character from blui and we had to but like you know laugh a bit more play a bit more and that really really strengthens the bonding connection I think between each of us in the family unit and naturally if someone's around well they're going to get pulled into the performance too so we give a little bit of play to others as well but like you say this is what builds safety and I think what you have shared so beautifully about your journey through parenthood and that journey which is then taking it within you to be willing enough as a mother to dig deep within to understand yourself how you're wired what triggers you may have what support you may need so you can then be able to read Nicholas and understand what he needs and to be able to let go like you said so much of it is being able to let go of yeah the thing the lead the way the you know the task and I think that can be so hard like what you've said it can't there is it's a long-term process where you can be so frustrated because things just aren't as easy as what you had hoped or thought or expected or anticipated and to have that perspective now to know that he has been brought into your life for your own evolution for his evolution for his sense of safety for him to be a thriving happy growing person in the world and the role that each person in your household plays to ensure that happens yeah it makes all those yeah insignificant little things that we all get so attached to myself include it gets so attached to the bedtime the thing you know but at the end of the day of people are happy and we are connected and it is going to look different for every single household and I think there can be as adults as parents as in the world we live in there's so much information there's so much you need to do this you need to parent this way this is how you talk to your child and yes we're going to do it right sometimes yes we're going to absolutely screw it up other times because we are human beings and all of us adults have walked through most of our life not understanding how the mind works how how the nervous system works, how we can feel each other, how, you know, So a house system is so interconnected beyond the physical sense that it can be so easy to judge ourselves, it can be so easy to judge other people because they do things differently. But it's that reminder that whatever works in your household for your family so you can feel safe, your kids can feel to play, to be children, which is what they need. We need 14-year-olds to play and to be children, like that's what we really really need to get you to be present, to practice those things, to understand what safety and love feels like. We in a family household and the fact that your children have that in their home is like that's it, that's what we're all trying for. Yeah, yeah, I think we impose all of these expectations on ourselves and on what it should look like, but I learned very quickly that that needed to thrown out the window. And he did shake things up, I think for a lot of us in the house, he did. He's also opened up a new world to his cousins, his aunties and uncles, the level of understanding of neurodivergence and specifically autism has grown tenfold and what inclusion looks like and what what what play looks like and what a family gathering looks like for us. And the depth of understanding of when we have to say no to something or when we have to split up and divide and conquer what we have to do that to do to still be a family to still contribute to still participate in events and outings and birthdays. We do so in the best way we can at the time. And whether that's a no for all of us or whether it's two of us are going maybe my husband with my older son or myself with my older son and we stay back with Nicholas it's okay. We're good with that. At the beginning it caused a lot of friction I think internally why can't we just go it's only three hours but three hours is lifetime sometimes for for kids that experience the world differently but have you know a lot of sensory challenges and that sort of environment just doesn't make them feel safe and that's it. Our main name is to ensure that our kids feel safe and supported and happy and look. Regulated nervous systems is what we ate all aim for and he was very dysregulated for a long time which then dysregulated me my husband all of us. We were in fight or flight for so long but with the point that we got to after our journey going through many instances of just kind of fighting back and pushing back not feeling what our body's telling us sitting with an emotion for way too long. We learnt very quickly that regulation isn't just you know being in a flow state everyone's happy and everyone's light and you know a high vibe and it's it's the ability to come down and the ability to go up and to come down and feel the feels and go up and come down right because we're always going to feel things we can't you know emotions are part of being human and sometimes those emotions are stress and anxiety and I we now know that it's okay we go to go through it and then we come back down and then we'll get there again at some point in the future but let's try to support each other in the best way possible when we have to peak and that goes for all of us and just my husband and I as adults and all the other demands in our life not just our children our work and our projects and life that we you know we have to support each other coming down again and then identify when we're going up and what I've come to see across this journey to now we've gotten to the point where now the peaks aren't as high you know we come down quicker it doesn't stay lingering with Nicholas his nervous system is he is not as dysregulated as he used to be and I bring that down to his is amazing human being right and he's learning his growing and he's doing it in his own time we're just here supporting his journey and his growth and trying to understand him better so I'd like to think that some of that is the environment he's in is maybe some tools that we've equipped him with that help him through that moment and ultimately just connecting especially in the bad moments that you're there that we're good and that we understand that it's tricky and that's my line that I always say to him when he's in his moment because everything takes over right his rational thing into takes over but it's at the window it's the it's tricky I get it and you just stay there although inside of you you're feeling feelings and that's okay you're feeling it but he comes down quicker and there are moments now afterwards whenever he's come down he'll come to me and he'll say thank you mummy I love you you know just just being there in a different way and sometimes we all need it even as adults sometimes you're just gonna say I'm tired right tired yeah I'm just gonna be there that's it that acceptance of like this is it we all experience emotions and the more that we can just communicate it like you said just go yeah it's just it's hard it's hard to feel like it's hard yeah like we just have to sit in it write it out yeah allow to move through we get together yeah yeah and sometimes there's not words there's no sometimes it's just just sitting there just sitting there and yeah just being around and yeah you know just trying to work out what he needs in that time and also just knowing where you're at because after those moments and I'm talking specifically about this energy exchange in those moments that you have the time afterwards to acknowledge what you felt because sometimes you get into a survival mode in that in that moment too yeah yeah um trying to keep him safe if he's running if he's throwing or if he's you know you're trying to keep him safe but also you're safe you're safety and just in general you just feel so heightened in that moment um all the other senses sort of shut off and you're just surviving in that moment that you've got to recognize that afterwards and for me I have learned to have stillness in my day in the morning and in the night and I do that for 10 to 20 minutes and that's with a meditation whether it's a guided meditation in my ears whether it's just me sitting with the sun on my face in the morning um but it's usually not consuming content um I might be listening but it's more for meditative reasons uh rather than consuming content I find that that just kind of you know just keeps me wired yeah but it's that it's the opportunity and the space to connect to yourself that's it particularly when you have been trying to you know co-regulate and you know support and manage and yes be present and hold everything for everybody like that does doing that every single day takes a toll and to have that awareness and language to know that actually like I'm I'm feeling tapped out right now I am feeling activated I can feel it within my system that I am it's there it's regulated I need to go and do something and then to have those tools for yourself and to prioritize that like you do every morning starting your day like that is helping you set up and prepare for whatever is going to happen throughout the day ending your day like that like those bookends of beginning and ending of the day is so important and then I could only imagine if you missed that one day or you know like it kind of slips as it does and it does that for myself to where you go oh okay I really notice yes when I haven't taken that walk yeah haven't yeah yeah just had a moment in quiet with myself you feel it you know it you catch it but that's a journey in itself and that for me for anyone listening I mean it's not just simply putting something in it is just I encourage people to try to form a habit [BLANK_AUDIO] illness in any way they can, even if it's in the shower. But the moment you do it often enough, and it could be every second day, could be every day, could be once a week, whatever. But start to build the habit more often. The cumulative effect of doing that over time, will realise you're in a moment where you used to get up to make it in this moment. Now I'm not. I'm literally saw peace inside. And then you go, 'Wow, okay.' It's the micro-moments and the microchoices that build and have such a huge impact on how you can carry yourself and how the capacity you have to hold things. But really, like what you're saying, it just comes down to prioritising some time to connect to yourself and making that a non-negotiable every single day. And like you said, so much of what you have been saying is that connection cannot exist without regulation and safety. We cannot feel connected to someone if we do not feel safe within our bodies. I agree. And even if you have a beautiful family and great relationships and all of those things, that's amazing. But again, if we are walking around, feeling a sense of vital flight or in that survival mode, there's so many of us are in. It's first starting with noticing and then building in some practices and allowing time. And yourself time to reflect, because a lot of it's just reflecting, 'Oh, why was I triggered or why did I behave that way or why did I say this?' And there's that time of reflection. And whether that's a meditation or whether it's just you just sitting and being in a spot that fills your cup, whether it's by the ocean under a tree or in your backyard or on your bed, just pick that place, that anchors you. And just be curious. Curiosities such a common thread through everything that has happened in my life, everything that I've chosen, everything. It's led me to today is curiosity of others, ultimately. That's the golden thread through everything I do, is my curiosity of people, why they do what they do and why they say what they say. And taking that further into then myself, okay, so why do I do what I do? And why do I say the things I say? What do I get triggered by these? Instance, why do I feel like this in some environments? And that curiosity has led me to understand so much more about people, but about myself. And you can't, you can only, you can only meet someone where they're at as far as you've met yourself, right? So if you haven't really come to understand yourself truly, how can you expect to then meet someone where they're at, you know, and connect? It takes a lot of awareness that can only come from self truly, truly because then you're entering this connection or this relationship with intention and really clear about your capacity and what you can bring and contribute. Otherwise I find it probably be very superficial or there's going to be a lot of friction that's going to happen, that's going to get you to a point where it's going to go, wow, this is like, this is like too hard, or too hard to what's going on. And then you're forced to kind of go, okay, what's going on? And it is within our relationships that you do learn so much about yourself and others and how I'm particularly in family dynamics, how we are actually, even though, you know, we have children that are part, mum, part, dad, whoever, in the family system, we are all so different, we all operate so different, our needs are so different. What connection look like, what communication is, our boundaries, how they're different from each other and having to kind of navigate. Navigate all of that takes time and it does mean you have to be willing. You can't just expect that everyone's going to follow your way. It's being curious. Okay, what do I do? What do I expect? And I feel like, you know, the curiosity piece is so big and so important because it then leads you down a path of acceptance, compassion and kindness rather than like you said, if you are expecting something, there's going to be more butting heads, there's going to be more single-mindedness, there's going to be more, this is my way, you know, and friction within relationships, households. And then of course, where's the regulation, where's the connection? Exactly. Going to happen. So being such an amazing point is just to bring it back to curiosity. Yeah. And I'm curious, how has this then translated into schooling finiculus? Because we know that the instances of children with neurodivergence has really exploded within the last few years, and it's become more of a focus within the schooling system. But having this understanding of Nicholas and what he needs and how home is really his safe place, how has that then helped him? And you know, you as a mother who can read your son and understand him advocated for him at school. Can't say the journey in schooling was easy. I guess our journey started with a lot of friction, a lot, friction between Nicholas and the environment, friction between him and certain educators that were around just not for anything in particular, just an energy exchange. It wasn't the right energy. There were so many challenges for kids, especially kids on the spectrum, but I'm going to say all neurodivergent kids, all of them, I think find a lot of challenges in mainstream schooling. Because of the rigid nature of the approach ultimately. And with these kids, you obviously rigidities like the last thing that helps them thrive. And connection, nervous system, knowledge and understanding, double empathy problem. So there's a researcher called Damien Milton that talks about the double empathy problem, which is ultimately at the core of it, is that communication is both ways. Right? So meaning autistic individuals versus non-autistic individuals and how they communicate is a double way problem. So it's not that they can't communicate in a certain way that doesn't fit the environment and the environment and the child need to find a way to be able to communicate. And I'm talking communication in terms of everything. Just environment, verbally, but this communication in everything, even in the energy that you bring into a room. So all of it, there has to be an exchange, right? It's not one way. It's not that this autistic child doesn't know how to talk. Well, you know, it's a problem. They need to know how to talk to be able to then do x, y, z in school. Well, they need to know how to sit and sit to read the work, right? Yeah. What turn? Right? I like what part in kindergarten that they have to read certain words and they have to be familiar with all the sight words by the end of kindergarten. I, that is one way. Can't be one way. So in this instance with Nicholas, there was a lot of challenges in mainstream schooling. Now, I could see what needed to change. I could see the gaps. I could see the inefficiencies, but I could also see how they were trying to help within the limits. That were imposed on them by the structure. maybe imposed by just because it's too hard basket for someone. But I could see the gaps more than I could see the right deployment of effort and support. So it kind of led me down a path of really trying to plug the gaps and not just a Nicholas for all the kids. There were so many sensory challenges in mainstream schooling for children in general, neurotypical or neurodivergent, autistic, not autistic, like all of them. So for me, I think eventually when we got to the end of year one, we had to decide this is not working for him. He was last in maybe 40 minutes at school and it was really, really hard for him. I'd pick him up. He was very traumatised. It was sad and we got to the point where he just can't do this. And I still saw the gaps and I thought, okay, I'm going to do everything in my power to be able to change this system that's just not conforming. It's not changing and it's not evolving. But maybe not right now and maybe it's not in his lifetime, in his schooling lifetime. But it is my mission to be able to change the way things are done now in schooling. But in our experience, we moved him out of that and put him into a support unit within a mainstream school because I still believe that we should all be existing together, all of us. No matter what we bring to the table, we should all exist together because that's what happens outside of school. So let's do that in school. So although he's in a support unit, he's still within a mainstream school and he interacts with the rest of the school during lunchtime and recess and all of that. Now look, the benefits of it is that it's a small school. So for him, tick this box. Does he still have challenges? Yeah, 100% he does. Do I have to educate on what I've learned about the nervous system, what is happening in his body in that when he's in that state of survival or fight or flight? Yes, I do, all the time. Do I understand that there's limitations within the system? Yes, I do. That there's policy, that limits how we can connect with children. Yes, 100%. Co-regulation in a school setting looks a certain way. Doesn't look the way it happens here in the house, the way he needs, but it's the policy and it's the system. Do I believe there needs to be potentially more education in the space of nervous system brain health? What's happening in the body when the child is in a state of dysregulation? I do. I really, really do. It's not part of the curriculum for educators and teachers, but these teachers and these educators really go into these jobs wanting the best for the children. They go there with the right intention and I just feel like maybe what I sense and what I see is there's just a lot of limits placed upon them, so they're also almost confined and they want to help but they can't and so I get a bit of a sense of that, but then I see the brilliant moments where they just really come to the table to really support him in whatever way he needed in that moment and it's like, you know, there's magical moments amongst all of the challenges, but it's an education piece, there's it's a big one. And unfortunately the system doesn't allow for true understanding of that child, I don't believe. No, because it's all very resource-based, it's very time, poor environment, and you know, we have to work with what we have at the moment. Is he staying at school or day? Yeah, he does. Is he happy most days? Yeah, he is. So I zoom out a little bit and I go look, he's in a learning environment, he's with other kids, he's being social, he gets his play and he gets to do so many different things that I don't expose him to and he stays there all day. I'm happy about that because it's a new experience for him and new experiences, expand our brain, expand our capacity and he gets to to learn and grow in that instance. Do we take three steps forward? Two steps? Yeah, we do. But overall, sometimes we have to zoom out and not get so caught up in the little little little things and if I zoom out, he's experienced connection with people other than me. He's been with kids because they've wanted him to be there. Amazing, that's what I want for him to have his friends and to enjoy being a kid with other kids that aren't us, that aren't his brother, that aren't his cousins. And he's writing for the first time this year, you know, he's reached his milestone, you know, when it was right for him. And I always say in his time, in his way and it's always been that way. So that's the letting go path. Yeah, I love that so much because that should be the mantra for every person and every child too, because I think what you have highlighted so beautifully is so you can see those two sides, you can bring it back to the now and the fact that he attends school and he's come such a long way and he is social and that's important. And I think it's so difficult because each, again, each family has different ideas or perspectives or wants different things from school or, you know, their child is different because it's a spectrum and each child is going to experience the environment completely differently and what works for one is not going to work for another and vice versa. So for him, this is right for him and to be able to see that, you know, he's thriving in his own way is so important. And also at the same time, there is a bigger picture thing that we do need to, these conversations are so important because I couldn't agree with you more that the system does have to change and teachers have to be educated about how the brain works, about understanding their bodies, understanding the responsibility that they have over themselves to be regulated because that impacts whoever is in the room with them and learning and taking time to understand what works for each of those children is important. And there isn't enough time for that. There isn't enough time to get to know what is going to help the child feel safe and regulated. That's because children cannot learn if they don't feel safe regulated. They cannot, if there's no connection between them and a teacher, they are in vital flight mode. There is no creative thinking. Nothing is going to happen. They are just going to be trying to feel safe. That's it. We have to have these conversations to know that, you know, at what point are we going to get to where we realize the restrictions, the limitations, the outcome-based assessments, all of these things that we are constantly working towards is at the detriment for all children. It should be in their own way, even for in their own time, in their own time. Exactly. Because what one child can do can follow something. I even think about my own children. One of them, maybe there's neurodivergence, I don't know yet, but it is their schooling journey is completely different from each other. And that's okay. And that's as parents, you want them to feel a sense of success, not feeling like they have to be meeting what everyone else is doing, or what the curriculum says, or the fact that we have these milestones that kids need to read. X amount of things in Kindergarten. As long as they are playing, they are social, they have the connections, they have friendships, they can go to school and be happy. They're not being bullied. They're, you know, they're happy to get up every morning and go to school for 40 weeks a year. That's right. And to see their friends and to have different approach sometimes to learning. I know that each teacher brings their own flavor and sometimes it just has to be more play and that's how the kids are going to learn, not to sit down and do this thing, you know, do this, you know, obviously there's, you know, there's certain things that need to be achieved within a certain time frame, but we kind of lose the child first mentality and it becomes about the system really, it becomes about the outcomes, becomes about ticking boxes and it, the childhood is removed from the conversation and what I find happens a lot with me when I'm in that in a conversation and maybe a challenging conversation with the school and the educators that I bring it back to the child, I bring it back to him all the time because I can see how it goes off to how the system needs to be and I bring it back to the child. Now, is it welcomed with open arms? No, because it goes against all of the limitations that exist and I understand the limitations I really, really, really do, however, if I'm talking about a support unit in specifically, you have children with really high needs, you have children that are independent but non-vobal, you have children with high needs and non-vobal. Nicholas is independent enough, verbal but not in like with expressive language, so you can still understand what he's trying to say to you, he can express himself in terms of what he's feeling but not truly like expressive language. So you can't have a dialogue of why and the abstract concepts. So what happens when, let's say, what happens when there's a pattern of a particular person coming in the room and the child gets dysregulated, gets a bit angry, is that pattern noted? Is it taken into account and thought of as maybe, maybe? He connects better with this person. Let's change it up a bit. Let's try to, or maybe when he's dysregulated, this other person that he connects with can come into the room and create a safety, create safety for him or the feeling of safety and belonging because I think it's so critical for educators and teachers in those settings to actually just be aware of themselves but also their impact on kids and sometimes it's just your energy, like sometimes you connect and you don't connect. Yeah. I'm not saying it's anything to do with them. No. Specifically, the child just doesn't vibe with you and it's not about you. That's it. And we have to let go of that. Yeah. And I really have to tiptoe around that fact because I know exactly when he connects and when he doesn't. Yeah. So it goes beyond just having a conversation with a child and the child doing what you want to do when it's like, oh, this is nice. It's not always going to be that quiet. No. But you're dealing with that way. Yes. Individuals. Multi-faceted individuals. Yes. But it's the same where you go into a workplace. Yeah. You know, it's not going to be any different that these kids don't grow up and just become more client. Yes. Sometimes. That's right. Well, that's kind of the world that we've created that we need to be less like. Yes. Where their individuals who learn different, who communicate differently, who bring in different perspectives. That's the whole point of life is to, like you said, to be curious about understanding people and that starts with yourself. And I think, you know, it's such an ongoing conversation, particularly in education, because there has to be so much more self-awareness and understanding the impact and the responsibility that we have. It doesn't take the way, the fact that educators have their own lives and they have their own challenges. Maybe they have neurodivergent children. So, you know, they're trying to navigate all these things outside of the energetic exchange of being a teacher. Exactly. It takes so much from you and it gives you so much as well. There is so much magic to it, but there is an a level of self-awareness and responsibility that needs to be an important part of the conversation. So, you have a space to do that. Yes, yeah, which the limitations and the system doesn't quite allow. But you having these conversations, whether they are welcomed or not, I know that they would be done with kindness and care coming from you, but it's important because you are advocating not just for Nicholas, but for every other child, not just in neurodivergent ones, but for the other ones that learn differently. And don't model the same way as everybody else, which is so many. Yeah. More often than not, I would say. And we need to advocate with kindness and understand that what you're doing for him. Like you said, there may not be within his schooling lifetime, but that doesn't mean that the mission's not important. And it's not going to positively impact how the system continues to change and evolve that it needs to over, because, you know, we've been talking about self and how that's a process, just for one individual. So, it's being very realistic that to change your entire system that has been around for hundreds of years is not going to be done overnight, but it also shows the impact in the ripple effect of the one person. If one person can have those conversations within a school to advocate for their child to say, hey, how about this? How about this? Can we try this and just see how we go? How about can we be curious about this? Can we have these conversations? Let's work together to see actually the impact of that. Beyond the individual, because, you know, teachers don't get taught this stuff in university. I never learned anything about it. It was only becoming a mom is when I had to then reflect inwards and do exactly what you say and be very aware of what my patterns are, what I get triggered by it, understand what on earth is regulation. Yeah. And that's what started that whole journey. So what this is doing for other people to give them that awareness and that understanding of how important it is to sit with yourself and to understand yourself on the deeper level and how that shows up in relationships within family dynamics. And it all comes back to connection, connecting to yourself to be able to connect with others with others. So fundamental. Yeah. Yeah. Well put. Yeah. So keep keep on keeping on keep on doing the work. I'm going to remember that in your own way in your own time. Yeah. I love that's the motto. So so much. But thank you. I will put in these show notes how people can connect with you. You have written a beautiful book, which is all around the journey of finding a playground for Nicholas and what that was like for you. And I know other simple things. Yeah. Not that simple for some. Yeah. But to create a picture book which has come from your own experience as a parent with your child, even when I share that idea with early education teachers that I know they were like, this is amazing to have these conversations because that's it. Like you even said for for Nicholas and his brother to be able to understand each other and understand how different people engage and work with each other. Yeah. And for within school environments, it creates that conversation of not everybody is the same. Actually, we are all completely different. So we need to have a little bit more kindness and compassion about understanding that and these conversations and the things that you are doing within your work, which is all stemmed from being a mum to this beautiful boy. Like how amazing is that to look at where this has gone in eight years and where it's going to continue to go. So the mission is to plug those gaps some way. Check things up like he did. And we need kids like him and people like him to show us. Let's shake things up a bit. Things can be done differently. Yeah. Let's try and do things different. And better. And better. For the better or everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thanks for being here. Thank you for sharing so openly. Thank you. I've loved it. I've loved it. Thank you for choosing to spend this time with me today. If something you heard stayed with you, share it with someone who might need it too. And if you'd like to help minecine, reach more people, follow the podcast, leave a review or comment. enjoying the conversation. Be kind to your mind, be kind to yourself, because kindness to self changes everything.