Congress Enters WNBA Culture Wars, and What's With the Sky, With Alissa Hirsh

[MUSIC] Through the WNBA show, I'm Sir Ed Sohee. Later on, I will be joined by Elissa Hirsch of the Chicago Sun Times. We will break down everything going on with the Chicago Sky right now. But before that, we have to get into a couple of news items. And we will start with, look, I'm actually surprised that it took this long, but the most online White House has finally weighed in on the most online league. On Monday, President Donald Trump gave his two cents on the Elissa Thomas Catelyn Clark. Brockis saying he thought that Clark was treated very badly. I think he said, right, I'm used to him saying, using words like bad, but he said, treated rather rough in what he called a bad event. There we go, there we go. That will be the extent of my President Trump impression. I'm not good at them, unlike everybody else in the world. And then on Wednesday, the Republican study committee sent a letter straight to the inbox of WNBA Commissioner Kathy Engelbert demanding that the league take accountability for quote unquote unnecessarily physical, hostility, and violence against Clark. The letter was signed by 11 Republican members of Congress. And it alluded to using the full way of the DOJ, the Department of Labor, and the Equal Opportunity Commission to come down on the WNBA. All of which were, I don't know if, I don't know if you guys noticed this, but we're pretty silent. When it came to CBA negotiations, I don't know, it's probably just a coincidence or probably just really busy at that time. But look, none of this happened overnight. I wrote about this two weeks ago. We've talked about it a little bit on the pod. Like the WNBA has botched Caitlin Clark's arrival and the PR around it. They essentially created this opening and to allow right wing grifters to hijack. What is essentially the story of the WNBA and turn the league into a political punching bag? And I want to get into why the WNBA is such fertile ground for the culture wars. I think two things happen simultaneously. We are living in a moment where a big, kind of cultural, political, legal fight is being waged over the role of women in public and private life. You're seeing abortion rights being curtailed to a degree that is actually like criminalizing miscarriage in certain situations. Women are getting imprisoned for going out of state to get abortions. Some of the most extreme abortion laws that we're seeing in this country. Some of which are supported by the congress people who are part of this letter. One of them also, one of them not going to use any of their names because what they want is attention. But one of them was also on a committee that tried to block the release of the Epstein files. So, you know, definitely these people care a lot about women. Obviously, we know this. But as this political upheaval is going on, you also have the WNBA going from the margins to the mainstream. And you have its employee base, which is primarily black, openly queer, politically outspoken, and increasingly wealthy, and very employed, and very ambitious, that are coming into the mainstream. And they represent the antithesis of the messaging that the modern conservative project wants women or anyone really to see, because it's built around values that they insist cannot coexist with excellent and achievement. The WNBA tells a very different story about a lot of different things that the modern conservative movement is not very into. So, this is kind of where we're at, right? I think a WNBA that wasn't so overburdened by these controversies, then with Caitlin Clark's rise, you would see all of these little things that I just don't think that this movement would love. And I think if you're a WNBA fan, you experience these things and you understand what makes a WNBA so special, and what makes it politically potent as well. But I don't think that the mainstream average casual sports fan ever really gets that far because you have to just wade through all of this conspiracy and rage-bait and clickbait to get to it. But, look, ultimately, for these people, their worst nightmare is not Caitlin Clark getting hurt. Their worst nightmare is more people finding out about the Golden State Valkyries, which I've said before, has the energy of Game 7 meeting a gay pride parade. And it's in an arena where Woke has gone to anything, but broke. The Valkyries are the first team to have a billion dollar valuation, and a lot of that is because they have leaned into their queer fan base. It's the stud buds. The stud buds are the antithesis of the humorous scolds that the conservative movement would like to paint the league's black mask lesbian base as. It's Chelsea Gray kissing her wife and hugging her son after winning the WNBA finals. And, you know, it's people finding chosen family at games and things like that. All of that stuff rubs up against what this modern movement is really about. And the funny thing, too, is that some of this stuff is so extreme on their end. I was reading this report from the Heritage Foundation, which also works closely with a lot of the the Congress people that wrote this letter. And it is one of the most influential conservative think tanks in, you know, modern political history, really. Like they, like, it's, this is pretty much, like, very adjacent to Project 2025. And they recently released a report laying out a blueprint to basically, like, incentivize early marriage and childbearing, like, critiquing same-sex families as, like, a foundation for raising a family, critiquing no-fall divorce, contraception, IVF, like, all of these things that have been really important for women to, you know, have a level of mobility in their lives and relationships and empowerment and freedom and, like, whether it's financially, socially, through the legal system. And just frankly, over their own bodies that they're trying to curtail right now and have been a lot of places. And a lot of that is also around, like, you know, this idea that going to college is a conspiracy, right? Like, in their fantasy world, Caitlin Clark, who rose to fame by becoming a college basketball folk hero, like, might not even have attended college. So anyway, like, I don't like, I want to say, like, I promise I'm not going to get too political, but we're here. I have. But I think I think that WNBA is in this place because the easiest place to telecompelling lies building it on a kernel of truth. And there are issues that the WNBA has obviously around officiating around the physicality of, of, of, of its play, but also around being honest about the way some people have felt about Caitlin Clark. And I think that the league and, and the media has been a little bit reticent to address the, like, when, when Caitlin Clark gets into situations with players to, like, really address, like, the situational individual story going on there. And it allows people to come in and make it seem like it's an unbridgeable divide between her and the entire league. Like, I think that there's a degree to which some of this stuff, like the WNBA kind of own goals it a little bit. And it allows people to paint it as it's like overly political correct institution that does not have accountability. And it's like woke 1.0. And honestly, in a lot of ways, the way the league moves around its, its messaging is very woke 1.0. I think that they frankly need a system update for where we are in 2026. Like, with some of the stuff that we, that we see as far as like the statements that come out of the league, like Kathy Engelberg is this time and time again showing up to a knife fight with an empty statement and like a useless task force. And it's just not working. You know, I think, like, whoever, whoever is the next commissioner is just going to have to be a lot more politically savvy. And just take control of the story of what the WNBA is because until somebody really takes control of the story that like cares about this league and understands what this league is, I just don't think that things like this are going to go away. Last thing I'll know, the leading Congressperson who, who I think is like, I think he's like the the chair of this caucus. He has run up unopposed in Texas's 11th congressional district for the last two elections. He's a three-term congressman. and he finally has an opponent. That opponent's name is Claire Reynolds. She's actually born in Indiana. She has a journalism degree from Northwestern and we are going to include a link to donate to her campaign in the show notes as well as a Reddit AMA where you can learn a lot more about her campaign who she is and why she decided to get into this race. A lot of it is inspired by anger at the political system and the place that we are right now. So I think it's something that a lot of people listening to this podcast could relate to. All right, moving on from that. I actually got to see Indiana quite a bit. There were in LA for a couple of days. So I went to a practice, I went to a shoot around. It will never cease to surprise me the difference between how good the vibes are in real life versus how bad they seem. On the internet, but you know what vibes culture? They don't win new games. They vibes don't know how to guard. Neco Guma Gay, the fever got absolutely waxed by LA. Like I was talking before the game about LA is kind of becoming everybody's get right trip. Like this was a get right game for LA and there were a lot of things that I liked about it. The number one thing was really like the sparks changing their offense. Prior to that game, they were basically continuing to run Lynn Roberts' five-out offense, even though Cam Brink has been hurt. Kelsey Plum, who is the headliner of that has been hurt. So they were taking a ton of spot-up shots and they weren't really shooting them at a high cliff. There were number fourth in spot-up attempts and 12th in efficiency. They also weren't running enough pick and roll at all. They were like close to the bottom of the league despite being number two in efficiency. That needed to change and we saw that change in the game against the fever. And you really saw I think like the biggest thing from the perimeter was Ray Barrel. Like she was posting up on smaller players, drawing fouls against Kelsey Mitchell. Derek Ahambi had an awesome night, like six for nine from the field, just getting bone buildings into foul trouble early in the game. Neko Gumike on the baseline, catching the ball on the high post and like, you know, just running horns like moving from the nail, like the two man actions, the post-ups, the hand-offs, the ISOs, like actions where their personnel can actually hurt mismatches and advantages. All of that stuff really needed to increase. So it was really great to see that tactical shift from a coach who I think like, I have to applaud her because Lynn Roberts' system is kind of what got her the job. So those, when you're in those situations, I think it can be hard to let go of what brought you to like, you know, we kind of all, there's an impulse to sort of dance with the one who brought you. And, you know, I appreciate that, you know, she kind of saw that it wasn't working for her personnel. We'll see if it's too little too late. Like, I think LA is still, I believe, 10th or 11th in the standings. And Kelsey Plum will remain out until after the all star break. And I think Cameron Brink as well. Indiana looked horrible. Like, they just looked really bad. Front court depth was horrible. Like, it is horrible. We know it's horrible. The way that they look without Alia Boston, the lineup, they were doing, by the way, okay, can I just say? So Indiana is doing load management, like planned load management. Caitlin Clark played her first game. She played 16 minutes. She played very short rotations. People weren't in love with that. It doesn't seem like she's in love with it. But I also do think that she has become very like, our ring-pilled after her injuries. Like, she is, you know, surveilling her own health to a very heavy degree. At this point, as much as she doesn't love it, like, she's going to embrace the load management aspect because she does not want to get hurt the way that she got hurt last year, even if there's particular aspects of it that she doesn't, doesn't particularly enjoy, like, the short stints, which I don't know. I'm not even sure how I feel about the short stints. I just know a lot of fans don't like 'em. So she played against L.A. and Alia Sett, and then today against Phoenix, Alia played in Caitlin Sett. All of which is to say, can we get Scott Agnes his credential back? Like, this guy was reporting the truth. It was a strategic management plan or whatever he called it, and Indiana revoked his credential. And now you go into practices and shootarounds where reporters, like, straight up, Stephanie White, a question where I didn't use a word load management, but I basically asked her, like, are you hoping when the season is 50 games we get an extra month that you won't have to do this stuff as much? And other reporters were, like, asked a question straight up with load management, and she, like, didn't batten I and just answered the question. So, Justice for Scott Agnes. And that was ridiculous from the get-go. I just hated that they took away his credential. He's been covering the fever and the pastures for such a long time. You need people that actually have boots on the ground and are respected journalists, even if they do get in the way of, you know, you sometimes will have to deal. Like, if you're the Indiana fever and you don't want all this fake news, all this stuff, like, the exchange that you have to make, with that is allowing actual reporters to do their job. And sometimes you're going to find out things that you don't want them to find out. But that's way better than, like, the alternative mess of people just making stuff up. So, that's my piece on that. Kelsey Mitchell was pretty awesome tonight. She's better not on an absolute heater. Like, even watching her in LA, like, she was keeping them in that game. Like, step back three after step back three, a lot of difficult shots. Like, shots that after the game, like, then Robert said, hey, we live with those, you know. Today's game, she has, like, the game winner, like, just ball on a string, goes left, scoops up the one-handed layup. This is all on a stretch where she is carrying Indiana offensively. She also had eight, she had 29 points, but she also had eight assists. And it was really great to see her doing a good job of distributing the ball late after Phoenix brought the double. And then you had Ty Harris just, like, playing off of that. She had an out of body fourth quarter there for herself as well. It was a nice fever when Leah Boston was really good as well. You know that they obviously wanted to get that win against Phoenix. There, that is just clearly a budding rivalry at this point. But yeah, shout out to Kelsey Mitchell. 141 points in her last 163 minutes. Just beautiful basketball. One of the fastest acceleration to deceleration, to popping a high-arking, accurate jumper players that I've ever seen just so difficult to guard. Just super, super incredible. The other thing I want to talk about is Las Vegas. And I thought it was interesting. So spending a lot of time around Indiana, spending a lot of time around the sparks. I think both these teams are kind of indexing on culture over youth in certain situations. So Indiana, so Las Vegas, they offered Justine Pisa who was on a developmental contract with Indiana full season contract. And Indiana opted not to match. And one of the biggest reasons was because they didn't want to wave Don Tistameris who is a huge part of their culture. They like her veteran leadership, her international experience. You know, Steph White called her an example of staying ready. So you don't have to get ready. I would argue she's not always ready. But she is also someone who is like very even killed and has good perspective on a team that has a lot of personalities that get high and low. I understand why they want her around. I also understand why on a team like Indiana, you might want to over index for culture with just like the sheer amount of stuff that they have to deal with, you know. Like as I'm speaking, there's probably somebody like making a video about how Steph White benched King Clark to sabotage her or something like that. So I get that. However, at the same time, sometimes I feel like the culture versus talent debate is just a way for teams to be conservative and risk averse in how they go about building their teams. And if there's anything I know from watching this Indiana fever team, it's that they are very top heavy and they need a lot more depth beyond their big three. And like it's like I trust Sophie, I trust Ty. Lexi seems like she's getting it figuring out again, but this front court is just really, really thin. It makes you wonder about should they have drafted Medina O'Cott instead of Raven Johnson, who has just looked really rough. Like I think she's going to be, like I think she's going to figure it out eventually, but she just can't, like it's the turnovers, the live reads. She's definitely overwhelmed right now. So anyway, the fever, they let Justin, Justine Passat go, the Vegas basis pick her up. And the sparks also wave to Nia Ladsin when Emma Cannon, who doesn't really play, but I know the team really likes her was also right there. And look, Tania Ladsin is someone who you could try to plug and play right now with Kelsey Plum out. Like you could use a bit of a scoring punch. You might as well just try to give her reps. And you all sort of have Nekka and Kelsey Plum and Derek Ahambi, like Anne Erly-Hackens, like I don't know how many more high character culture players that you need. Like isn't the point of getting those vets in there that like they keep everything together so you can, you can take swings on, on younger players 'cause that, that, that is basically what Vegas is doing, right? So Vegas, waves Kennedy Carter, we'll, we'll talk about in a bit here. But this is a team that feels so strongly about their culture that they don't worry about integrating new pieces and they've taken chances on players that have fallen out of favor in other places, like Dana Evans or Joel Lloyd, both of whom and played vital roles in their title run last year. So with Carter, it didn't work out so well, but the point is they took a chance, right? And it's, for them, it's high reward, low risk. Becky Hammond said after the game, they're not gonna comment on a player that's no longer on the team. I don't think that Fear Well was awesome. She listed herself as a free agent like a month ago and then they started listing her as injured before they finally waved her. So I made, like, yeah, obviously that didn't end well, but I don't think it's like gonna have a long-term ramification on the ace's culture. And now the ace is brought in Justin Passat, who I think might be available to play on Sunday when Indiana plays Las Vegas, which will be interesting. And they picked up Tania Ladson as well. And this is a team that is kind of similar to the fever and that they are top heavy and they don't have like international talent, which makes them cap strapped and it makes them hard to find depth. So they have to kind of take shots like this. And it's something that I feel like they probably won't do it, but I'm kind of like, why don't the fever wave someone like Dante's or even Grace Van Souten and offer Chloe Bibby, who's on a developmental contract with the Chicago sky a full season contract. Like she was with you guys last year and you know that she can fit into what you're trying to do and she can space the floor, which is essentially what you have Dante's for as well, but she's a lot younger and way more playable. Kaley Jones, another player who I think can make sense in a system that like, you know, prioritize as guards, you know, playing off of handoffs and stuff. Someone who could find Clark off the ball the way that Iowa did, right? I think in general, I think that I think the ACE has figured out how to use a developmental pool. They are basically like looking around and seeing like who's great on and everybody else's developmental pool or who do we want to take a chance on and they're just swipe those players. And I feel like that's a real way to do it. It's not, it's not like this new developmental roster stuff it's not great at actually solving the problem it was supposed to and giving the league's French players more stability, but it does sort of like create low risk opportunities for teams and players to basically test each other out. It's like a casual dating situation. Like Vegas is basically right now they're in a situation with Niall Adson, they need the depth and she needs the reps and we'll see if it works out. Same with like just seen Pso. And if it doesn't work out, no worries. Like everybody probably gets some sort of good experience out of that, right? So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. Like I don't understand why more teams aren't doing that. Last thing I wanted to talk about, kind of a downer, but I am wondering if we've seen Kennedy Carter's final minutes in the WNBA since she was waves. Most people I've talked to are pretty doubtful if she plays another WNBA game. Certainly not this season, that hurts. Like that makes me sad. I think it makes a good chunk of the WNBA community sad. And I think most people are just hoping that she finds a level of like piece or whatever she's looking for in her life. But I think that I think that she's just a type of player because of how she plays. Like she just has a way of making you feel something. Like this is somebody who grew up idolizing and honestly eventually emulating Alan Iberson. Like she plays with a fearlessness and magnetism. Like she definitely has that star factor where like when she's on the court, you don't notice anybody else. There's this artistry. But there's also that same volatility, right? Where you wonder if like the very things that make her great are ultimately going to be would disqualify her from being able to play in a team concept. You even saw it like some of like the early hip injury too where she hit the hardwood like really hard on these drives. Like that's what makes you feel something about somebody in the sense that you can just tell the basketball means so much more than a game to them. Like this is really about like survival and expression and just competition at the highest level. And like I will do anything to get this ball on the bucket right now. And at the same time, it like makes you worry about that person's long-term health, right? I don't know, it's just like, she's just someone that I think like gripped me and I think she gripped a lot of people. But I don't know if she ever just was able to find the right balance between freedom and structure. Like I don't know if she's ever really embraced structure in the sense that you kind of need to for a pro WNBA team, right? I was reading the story from Callie Finn from USA Today who was on the show a couple of weeks ago. And she interviewed Kennedy in May before everything went bad. And you know, she recounted the story to Callie where she told Teresa Weatherspoon who's really her greatest WNBA advocate that she had no interest in being like the sixth woman of the year in Chicago. And she eventually started and she had her best season. And honestly in hindsight, like, I might have been her best shot at success. But then the locker room struggles and like the tension and the Chicago of it all, like their own pension for self-sabotage. That was a locker room that definitely struggled with favoritism. So I don't know. Like I do remember at the time when there were, like I think this kind of explains Kennedy in a way. Like going into the Olympic break that year, Chicago was playing really well. They had like one of the best net ratings in the league with Kennedy, Marina, Babry, Angel Reese, I think Lindsay Allen and Camila Credoso into starting lineup. And it looked like they were gonna be a playoff team and it looked like they really found an identity in who they were. Like they were gonna be gritty, hard-nosed, competitive and they weren't gonna care if you liked them or not. But they were gonna love each other. And that was like kind of what you imagine, like the platonic ideal of a tree so Weatherspoon team being. And then over the course of the Olympic break, Kennedy liked some tweets basically saying that, well, Kennedy's the best player on this team and like, I don't know why Angel Reese is like featured. I don't remember what the exact tweets were, but they were basically complementing Kennedy and denigrating Angel. And there was also a game where they had Angel kind of close it out and it looked like they were double, double chasing a little bit. And Kennedy could have hit her career high if they had kept feeding her. And like just watching her on the bench that game, it felt like she felt overlooked. And I think that gets to like a couple of things about Kennedy. I think Kennedy feels overlooked in general. I think that she, and it's hard to even blame her for this. I don't think that she understands why she's putting these situations, like she mentioned with Vegas having a leash when she feels that she is the best score in the world. And she's not necessarily wrong. Like, she was in the 96 percentile in scoring this season. And that's on like top shots. That's on like on the ball. She has some of the best touch I've ever seen. Her ability to get to the rim is incredible. She might be the single best isolation player. Maybe not the best, but she's a top five isolation player in the league. And for most players who are that talented, like when you're that brilliant, we kind of excuse you being a bit of a headache in some other ways, right? Or like we excuse when you don't play defense, or when you have an ego or when you want to be number one, 'cause it's like that's just the deal we make, you know? Like if you can deliver, then you're allowed to do that. And I don't think Kennedy, I think Kennedy never understood why she never really was embraced that way. And she was also like, she was drafted in 2020. She was drafted number four in the same draft that Sabrina UNESCO went number one. And it's like, you know, Sabrina UNESCO was like the girl next door that the WNBA was trying to mark it the crap out of and really make her be the one. But I think Kennedy was the one that made you actually feel something, but she was the opposite of the archetype and the identity that the league was centering at the time. And frankly, like we were talking about Caitlin earlier, I think Caitlin is paying for the sins of, you know, these former attempts to really make, you know, these white, straight girls pop when they weren't necessarily popping organically. And it's ironic because Caitlin is an organic phenomenon, right? But then from Kennedy's perspective, she still thinks she's the one and talent wise, you can't really tell her that she's not. So then fast forward to 2024 and the Caitlin Clark hip check. It's like, okay, now you start to understand from her perspective. Not, I'm not saying it's right. Like she obviously shouldn't have done that. And frankly, it's funny looking back at it. Like it kind of puts a bow on all this stuff. Like if the W had just assessed Kennedy a flagrant at that time and suspended her, like we probably never end up in the situation that we're in right now. And honestly, like who knows a butterfly effect of it? Like maybe things end up different for Kennedy as well because I think the other thing with Kennedy is that like, I think she mistakes critique for, for like you don't think I'm good, you know? Like I think she's struggled with that in a lot of different stops. I think it worked in Chicago for a lot of reasons. And a lot of that was because she didn't get critiqued as heavily, but she's, she's a little, she seems like she's a little bit difficult to coach in that way. Becky Hammond, she's. gonna want you to play defense you know and your teammates there are gonna want you to play defense and they're gonna want you to pass the ball and they're gonna want you to embrace sacrifice and unselfishness because this is a team that's trying to repeat for a championship like this is a team that's a dynasty um and you're like and and you're you're you might like she said it she's like I think I'm playing next to the best player in the world and I'm the best score in the world but I don't think she understood why she was coming off the bench for like Jackie Young or Chelsea Gray and there was like the first game where it really went wrong was Jackie Young had like an '04 like a one for ten shooting night right and Kennedy Cardi it was like Jackie Young was going through some family stuff too and um she's just going through a slump like she's just just going through it and Kennedy came in and she was like really awesome from a scoring perspective but she wasn't really bringing it defensively so Becky Hammond ends up closing the game out with Jackie Young and I think it was like kind of this opportunity because I think Jackie Young also then had like the game winning offensive rebound or a steal or something like that even though she was like over 12 that night like she made the game winning play and I think it was kind of an opportunity for Kennedy to learn like okay like you're obviously a great score but there's so much more to basketball than that and I really think that Becky wanted her to like look at Jackie as somebody that she could emulate and I think that would have been a great example for her but I think Kennedy was just really stuck on the fact that she didn't finish and I think Chelsea Gray hit the game winner that day and you know Kennedy was basically just like in the post game like really upset and I think that that was kind of a bad look like for a night that you know your team survives this like late game and like you should kind of just be happy for your teammates and she was also back in Atlanta so I think that was tough for her too like she obviously has her history in Atlanta as well where she was suspended after like getting into it with Cornie Williams so like I think that was a tough night for her and I think that they were willing to let it go but then there was also like kind of a similar thing went down against the wings later and I think after that it was kind of done and I think you know I think with Kennedy every single time something like this happens to her she wants to prove herself even more and I think sometimes you can want to prove yourself so badly that you lose sight of the people around you and basketball is ultimately it's a team game you can be the greatest score in the world but it's a team game and I think she just gets like I don't think it's nefarious or anything you know I just think that she just like gets this gets caught in this like cycle of insecurity and it sucks like I think that just happens to people sometimes and you know ultimately like it kind of makes her frame her teammates sometimes as like obstacles as opposed to allies and I just don't think that can work for a championship basketball especially for the aces I don't know I mean like I'm always gonna have a soft spot for her like I'm always gonna just look at the talent and like look at the the the sheer desire and just the fact that I don't think that she like really means any of it and say like I hope that she gets another WNBA chance we'll see I guess but yeah like that's that's the end of the Kennedy Carter show for this season 4dow it was 13 beautiful games in 12 weeks or 30 like it was really really fun while it lasted it was really really fun while it lasted but you know what maybe it was meant to be temporary like she's just a comment flying over the sky she's explosive and ephemeral and exciting and not gonna be there the whole time um so I don't know we'll see we'll see what happens with Kennedy I wish her the best I really I hope she's doing well and um I hope she gets another opportunity you can you can you can just tell basketball it means so much to her too so yeah um all right that's it for me solo um we'll take a break here and then we're gonna bring on Alyssa Hirsch to talk some Chicago and joined today by Alyssa Hirsch the Chicago sky beat reporter for the sun time so look guys a couple of days ago we gave you a little bit of a 4-1-1 on the developing Skyler Diggand situation um if you didn't listen to that podcast earlier this week Skyler Diggand's found out that she was going to be Ben she took the Instagram stories to express a level of dissatisfaction through that via a post that I can only describe as putting the fear of God in me and I'm not even involved in this situation at all um she also she said that she has been so quiet and so good after what she was not very quiet she had she didn't interview with Alyssa Hirsch herself to let the world know how she felt about it and in that time she's been out since that time she's been out with a mysterious knee injury that seemed to have popped up even though the sky did not play any game between the moment that she found out that she was going to be benched and when they played the Phoenix Mercury again a game that they won a game that they looked quite you know defensively connected um looking like dare I say they didn't really necessarily have all that much room for a Skyler to continue more Alyssa there are so many layers to this situation we will get into all of them but I just wanted to get your sense right now of what's going on you're you you've done more reporting since all of this has happened um what's up how are the vibes how man do you have to like how spares do you have to be with the sky is falling metaphor as it be yeah you gotta be careful um the vibes I mean I think there are just like signs of this being the end of the road um for for Skyler and the Sky I mean I'm I'm hoping they can figure it all out but I mean like the main thing that stuck out to me is just like how many times Skyler is now referring to Tyler Marsh as her boss and I think that like once you start talking in like contractual terms about your employer it's usually not a very good sign that's that's very insightful but it's a great observation I did notice that piece yeah he's the boss which is also just a wave saying whatever's going on not my fault he's the one making decisions yeah yeah I think it's like a distancing which I think like we would all do in a situation where like we're no longer aligned like we like she's a professional she's gonna do like she'll play like if she you know needs to but um I think that um yeah it's just a sign and it's like when you're a Chicago sky be reporter you you hear this stuff like um in February like when Angel Reese was at USA camp I asked her if she was like planning on coming back to Chicago and she was like yeah like I'm under contract exactly I was thinking so yeah so like it comes up it comes up um and I I guess I shouldn't just say like Chicago like this comes up in all like professional sports no but the Chicago sky do you have a pension for this kind of thing right um I imagine that makes him a very easy easy and well not easy an interesting team to cover um there have been a I've been feeling a lot of dayshoku lately actually so um the the thing that I wonder I what so originally my I thought that maybe this incited everything right like this this column that you wrote where the semi-annual column where it feels like where Jeff Pagliaka gives you an interview where he talks about how the team's performance has been to supporting and then kind of pins the responsibility on somebody else um last year that conversation was with uh forward what was with him and it um it kind of pin things on Angel Reese's production we know what happened in that situation this time around he talked a little bit more about the execution that seems like it goes straight on to Tyler Marsh right but what do you think about that yeah I think that's like probably how a lot of people read it um I don't know I do think like his broader point that everybody at the sky makes is that there's like no one reason why this has all gone wrong everybody like talks about losing Rikia Jackson but at the same time like they don't want to pin it all on injuries um so like I do think like that context is important like losing your leading scorer is a big deal um but I think that they believe that like no matter what this should have been a good team like no matter who they lost they should have been good so then like you have to keep going like down with the explanations and like execution is again like something that everybody talks about like Tyler talks about that the players talk about that um and Jeff talk about it but I think obviously like when it's coming from the GM like it can definitely sound like oh you're putting that on the coach um but it is something that I hear from like literally everyone at the sky that execution is why they're in this predicament yeah they are what three and eight in the clutch this year yeah yeah and like I mean I don't know if like you've watched all the Sky games, but like the Dallas game was an example where I think they're like up 17 and going into the fourth like you got to win that game. And you know, there were like a tons of like officiating things that happened in that game. I think like Annie Constable wrote about that that that like the final two minutes were just like this example of like why officiating is really bad in the W. So like they definitely like had bad luck. But at the end of the day, like you can't you can't blame it on bad luck and officiating all these things. So it's you know, your record is what it is. That game was really fascinating to me because yes, the officiating was horrible. I think that fat last foul particularly on Camilla Cardo. So considering the game that she was having was an absolute killer and yeah, but there were also some execution issues. Like I think pages four point play was a very legit foul as well. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I guess I don't have a strong opinion on that, but I can for sure. That was not a good way. Yeah, and we can go back and forth on things like that, right? But ultimately like one one of the things that I found very interesting about it was that the officiating was bad enough that it kind of allowed Chicago and and Martian particular to walk into that press conference and pin the blame on the officiating and it almost felt like in that moment to get over a 17 point loss, especially with like the way that they were playing earlier in that game. That was like the only way that they were going to be able to compartmentalize and survive that moment in order to like move on and and and and and fix things from there. But um the execution has not gotten like it's interesting. Like the execution from that moment didn't get much better. However, since Courtney Bander's loop has been back that the team is playing a lot better and originally they are, but like in the only clutch game they've had since loop has been back has been the aces game, um, which they locked they were up three with I think like 20 seconds left. Um, sleut turns it over like there were many other tuners and that like it's definitely not sleut spot but like it's continuing. Mexico should have continued. This is true. This is true. When I first saw everything that went down. So I read your column and then I found out that Skyler digger's going to be coming off the bench. And my original read on that was, okay, Tyler's feeling some pressure. His boss is telling is is is is talking about the execution. Maybe the best move for him is to start Courtney Bander's loop who is of course tight with Jeff Pagliaca was her like, you know, he was performer trainer before he got the Chicago GM job. We'll talk about Courtney's boots, the Courtney Bander's boots seeming involvement in personnel decisions, but obviously they are tight. Um, now as more reporting from you has come out and Skyler has also spoken out, she also kind of said like she, I'll quote this where she said she doesn't she doesn't know how to answer the question about late game execution without sounding like a jerk, but she goes on to say, we don't discuss late game very often. I don't think we have a set slash reset play to run. We've been in that situation a lot of times. I would love to hear what marshes late game strategy is as far as what exactly we've been doing. So it seems like this is actually just far more about Tyler Marsh and Skyler Diggins. And I'm wondering does it go back to Skyler's original critique of Tyler Marsh? What what and what point in this season was that like in June? Yeah, it was in June like they had lost to the tempo. They had gotten like killed and then in the press conference after the game Ryan from kind of state at mine sports was asking about half core execution to to the players and Skyler was like asked Tyler like that's a Tyler question. Um, and I think I think at that time like we were very confused about that response. And I followed up with her like I think whenever was possible at the next availability and asked like if she and Tyler were on the same page and she was like like if I had a problem, I would just say it. Um, so I like, I mean, I was just taking it for what it was at the time. Okay, you know, she just said she just thought that those questions were better suited for Tyler. So left it there. Um, but obviously like now when she's like she's making some additional observations slash critiques about Tyler and like it's not even like just yeah, she commented on the late game execution, but just her entire recount of how this benching has gone down has been like the communication hasn't been there. I don't know why this is happening like you hit you need to ask him like, you know, clearly they just are not connecting. She doesn't like view him as having managed this properly, but like to also give his side like he's saying like I did tell her why, um, you know, I'm not going to tell you media, but I did tell her why. So they're saying completely different things. Yeah. Well, she also told you that when she came to Chicago, she was told that she was going to hold it down till slutty got back, right? And but then she said so I still don't have much, very much clarity on that. So I'm like, well, it seems like maybe you do. Well, okay, so that's another interesting thing because like she was like like I've even said that to you guys to media like holding it down to slutty got back and I told her was I was like, well, I thought what that meant was that when slut got back, you would shift over to the two if and when slut was ready to start because again, like she is still on a minutes restriction. They started her against in the last game, but she didn't start the second half because they had to manage her minutes, which just suggests like I don't know that she's like truly ready to start or just from like a injury perspective. So I can see you look very confused and I also feel confused about a lot of this. And so I'll just leave it there for you to continue. Well, that was my next question was really just going to be, why do you actually think this is happening? Oh, okay. I don't like I very strongly believe this is not a basketball decision. This is not a like let me shake things up to try to see if this can work. Like this is not a like Skylar has been inefficient at the rim. Like I think like maybe some of those things can play into it. Like I do not think any of that is what's at the center of it. I think there is like just some kind of disconnect between Tyler and also like maybe the broader organization and Skylar and I don't know if I can't speak anymore to it than that, but that's like what I know in my gut. Well, this is an organization that has a history of not reacting very well to their players being outspoken and in their criticism of them, right? Like we saw this with Angel Reese last year where she got the half game suspension and never in a very similar situation then had a mysterious back injury ended up never playing another game for Chicago. And you know, I won't go through the entire catalog, but we just we know we know that there's a history here of the franchise preferring players to be almost sick offantic in their praise of them in a way that Derek I say Courtney Vandersuit has been very willing to do. This gets muddled because at the same time Courtney Vandersuit has been the better basketball choice in the last couple of days. Like as much as yes, it's it's it's probably unlikely that this decision has to do with basketball. I look at it and I'm like, well, at this you can it becomes an easier choice for Chicago to justify when Skylar is having like one of her worst pick and roll production years ever. For sure, but like if they wanted to if they want it, they could easily say that and like even like I've seen like columnists writing about that like, oh, this you know, you could have seen this coming. This was you know, she or her performance hasn't been very good in Vandersuit better. They you know, they could have easily said that they could, but you know, their whole line has been Vandersuit coming back is going to open up Skylar as a score. That's where they've said all season long is that, you know, there's going to be this tandem and I've never understood that either because I mean, I'm not a Skylar Diggins expert, but what I do think that I know about her is that she is a point guard and like if she can for sure to score, like she's a great scored, but like what she's really good at facilitating and she starts possessions with a ball. And so I've I just haven't understood their like complete certainty that this match is like what makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. And this is a franchise that like it's so interesting, like I feel like Chicago wants to be this tough team. That's full of players who are honest and you wrote really well about how the sky like they've gotten what you would expect in the Skylar Experience, like the good and the bad as far as her quality, her ability to galvanize and light a fire under the locker room. as well in moments when it doesn't really feel like they are living up to what they're capable of, especially on the defensive end. At the same time, they also seem very hesitant to embrace what having a player like that means. Like, it's just, this is, this is, even for Skyl, it's like, it just feels like this is what both parties signed up for. And now we're nearing the inevitable conclusion of a car crash that, I don't know, I feel like a lot of us saw a comedy. Yeah, I mean, I've also been confused about what exactly Skyler wanted from this experience. I mean, like, she's given different reasons. For sure, for sure, but I think she could have like gotten a decent contract somewhere else. Like, she was an all-star last season. I don't know. I'm not an expert on that, but I think like, she's a very good player who like could have gotten a pretty good contract a number of places. Maybe this was the best one that she was offered and that's fair. But like, she's talked about like wanting to be close to home. She's talked about wanting to play with Courtney Banderslut. And she's talked about like having heard good things about Tyler. And so, tough. I guess, I don't know. And she's still like, she's like, yeah, me and Slut have talked, like, we're good. This isn't like a slut thing. So, I don't, I mean, it's like very clear that her and Tyler are not meshing. So I, it could, like, honestly, could just boil down to that. But that she has also like noted that other aspects of the experience like the facilities were not what she was told. So I don't know. She's kind of been saying this all season, like, yeah, this isn't really going the way I thought it was. And I've never been 100% sure what that meant. And I still, honestly, now 100% sure, but we're getting more and more, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the, let's talk, let's talk about the contract because I've been trying to find a trade because that feels like the next step you, right? So, Sky, what do you think? What am I going to be covering? I don't know. So I really, I need to talk, talk through this with you because Skyler is on a two year deal that is worth 930,000 dollars. Yeah. And I am genuinely having a lot of, I love the trade machine. I'm having a hard time finding deals that make sense because I think like Chicago, they have plenty of help in the back court. Like, they didn't really lose a step in their rotation without her yesterday. They're going to have Dejan A. Carrington coming back at some point, but they could use some more front court depth. But I'm having a really hard time finding a trade that actually makes sense. Okay. What do you think? The one, the only one I could really think of where the money lined up was Skyler Diggins for Nas Hillman. You would, like Chicago would probably have to attach another draft asset. Why would they are on a really want exactly? Well, well, I think Atlanta needs a little bit more point guard hell. However, yeah, absolutely they do. I don't think they really know how to run their offense. Like I think Jordan Canada has been a really good player for them, but I don't think that she is like the natural conclusion for them at the point guard position. Like I think that she would come off the bench. That's the thing. It doesn't work. So my point is it really doesn't work. Because the Jordan Canada question is one that I come back to. You could try a Jewel Loid swap just to kind of see what happens like with both of them getting a change of scenery, but it doesn't really necessarily solve the bench. Skyler coming off the bench for a championship team and the Las Vegas aces is probably a different proposition than it is for the sky, right? Like I think it's just a different deal there. She could win a title. I think Becky Hammond could do some really interesting things with her. I think she'd probably have a little bit more, you know, bedside manner. She might know how to pull those strings a little bit better as well. If Phoenix wants to go fire sale, Kalea copper. If Chicago is willing to put in the real draft asset, but like I don't know if Kau wants to necessarily run it back. The problem too here is that you have two entities that don't really have flowing reputations. Like I think Skyler is running out of places that she can go to because she's been very critical going out the door of a lot of places. Like we heard in Phoenix. I don't think things necessarily end up great in Seattle either. We heard it in Dallas as well. And there are only so many teams. And then for Chicago there are only so many players. Like if this was a better one franchise, like maybe Jew Lloyd who was like from the Chicago area would be a lot more intrigued by a possibility like this. But when you consider both teams don't have a lot of options, both sides don't really have a lot of options. They've burnt some bridges. Chicago doesn't have a lot of draft assets nor do I think they should really be in the business of giving up more. And Skyler's contract is just really hard to trade. It's also a really hard contract to buy out though as well. If you're going to go that route because you have an extra year on it. And I just don't know if it's like at that place yet. But I don't like I just I actually don't see the way out right now. Like that's that's kind of what's kind of my thing. Okay. I think those are all super fair points. I absolutely think it's going to be a tight market. But my my list that I wrote down was Phoenix L.A. Dallas and Washington. I did it more based on like cap space slash just like who could integrate a point guard. And I didn't even do I don't know like who Chicago would get back in any of those scenarios. But those were the four teams that I had. Washington I definitely think could use a point guard. But I do not think that they are yet in the business of trading young players for a veteran. I don't think that they are like they are very locked in on their use movement. I think they like what Alicia Flores brings. I think they're going to be okay with just letting Georgia aim or rep things out, especially because they've been playing a lot better lately as well. So yeah, I see that. L.A. is interesting. They could definitely use some help in the point guard department. They don't read like what would you want back from L.A. if you are you were Chicago. I'm just kidding. Yeah, I couldn't really figure out what if you just take Erica Wheeler back. Just just just you just need to you just need to like move on from the situation and okay, yeah, it's like pretty good. So yeah, she's and she's so it's like she's not having the best season right now. You can reunite Schuyler, NECA. I think so. I was at the sports game yesterday and I think that they are finally figuring some stuff out as well. So I watched that game. I tried to watch the first. Well, being in there in real life will help you lock in definitely. But it was like it was not it wasn't a classic like it's it's definitely not getting like the rewatch treatment by any means. I think that could work. And when just if Phoenix, do you think Phoenix would be next to my last one? Yeah. I don't know if they would want her back. Oh, I have no idea, but I think if it's possible then I mean, it's like completely new people from when she was there last time. Sure. So could just be new regime and ready to go for it. Maybe yeah. It sounds like she wants to be in like a better facility. They have that. They had the facility when she was upset. Oh, she went to well. Yeah. Well, then mood point. Well, I will see. Well, like it's definitely it's definitely possible. Like there's even like a lot of the lot of these places do have new leadership as well. Like, so we'll, you know, see about that like Kurt Miller and Dallas as well as like, you know, not somebody who's part of the Skylar experience originally. Yeah, exactly. Um, so we'll we'll see. I just don't think like I think ultimately like two years on this contract, everybody in the league knows you're in a bind. Like I just don't think that you're going to get much back. Like if anything like I completely agree, but you could maybe get a little something and just like move on from the situation. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Um, so the other thing too is like so she's been talking a lot about this practice facility, not being ready yet. Um, it was supposed to be ready December 2025. Then it got pushed up. And now it's what's the latest? Like is it supposed to be ready? I guess it was supposed to be ready by all star because there were supposed to host events in it, but all star is in less than three weeks. Yeah, it's not, I mean, it's not going to be ready by all star. Um, I think this is just like from my eyes like I go over to the facility and I look at it. And I mean, I have sources as well, but yeah, the, this guy have not given a public statement about it, but just like from looking at it, it is definitely several months away from being done. Um, and yeah, I mean, they've dealt with like construction in Chicago is, is difficult. There like partnering with the Village of Bedford Park, I think, you know, there's partnerships are always complicated. Um, and tariffs, other, you, I mean, you know, they're there are things that make that make construction complicated. Um, but like at the same time, like they did announce several times that it would be ready, like for the season started, something called late spring. Um, and so I think it's like totally, it's totally fair for any player on the team to be like, hey, like you said that this was going to be ready. Well, it seems like every time they have a bad PR week, they hold a press conference at the practice facility, reminding everybody that it's coming. Yeah, well, we could we'll be awaiting our Sarah. The latest one is like, yeah. The latest one is coming. It has to be right. Yeah, but I mean, you don't announce the skylight again straight from, from the practice from Bedford Park. Yeah. Yeah, but um, I don't know, I mean, the players obviously like have different views on it. Like, um, I talked to like Elizabeth Williams about it and she, because she's like been on the sky for like three years now. Um, she has like advocated privately to Michael Alter, the owner for like upgrades and the experience and like so she and she's obviously like led the CBA fight. And so she's like, obviously like passionate about facilities and player experience and all that kind of thing. But like when I talked to her about it, she's like, you know, they they communicate with us. They told us that, you know, it's kind of fluid and there are moving parts. And um, like she had every opportunity to say like, this is ridiculous. Like that, you know, they should have been done by now. And she didn't. So I think some of the players are understanding or at least, well, I shouldn't say understanding because I don't know how Elizabeth Williams feels in her heart of hearts. But I think like what she's willing to present to the media is like accepting of the situation. Yeah, I think there's some diplomacy on her part there, um, probably some level of self preservation. And as somebody who's been in these negotiation rooms, she probably understands that, um, it might not be hoover to publicly express frustration, right? But that's also a personality thing, right? Like you have, she seems like a very even killed person. But then you also have other players who are going to speak their mind about these things as well. Uh, but with all start coming up, I do wonder. So this practice facility is not ready. Um, they're probably going to have to move some events that were slated to beat the practice facility. There are no current Chicago sky players that will be participating in all star. I have been told about the 2021 sky disaster that it was like probably one of the best, like the worst all star experiences ever. I also was at, um, Chicago, like when the Chicago Bulls hosted NBA all star and there were fans who paid to have fire, garpacks billboards made in the city. And I do, I just wonder if there's a, is there, is there a level of concern about perhaps some egg on their face, just a level of embarrassment, maybe coming down the pipe in the next, next couple of weeks? Oh, you just feel like the worst time. They're concerned, but I'm concerned, like, like, like observers are certainly concerned. They are, they're hosting events at the Obama Center for the all star, which I'm excited about. Uh, that's really cool to go there. So, um, that could be a, that could be a cool thing. That actually sounds really cool. The Obama Center looks great. I was, I was watching like some interviews about it. It looks fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that could be a, so I mean, I said, I want to say, I want to say. Yeah. And like, allow for the possibility that it's going to be an amazing thing. But I think, yeah, we also probably expect there to be maybe chance or awkward encounters or other things. Well, you can't, it's, it's hard if you're a fan, right? Because they, they traded poor angel Reese, give and gave up the pick that was, that became Olivia Miles, right? And now Angel Reese is no longer here. They traded for aerial actions with the pick that became Sonya Citron. And now aerial actions. Yeah, but with that one, you got Ricky Jackson. So that one, if you're a fan, like, you can be okay with that. I think fans don't necessarily always connect that. But I do try to remind them of that because at least, like, if I was a fan, I would be like cool with having Ricky Jackson over Sonya Citron. I love Sonya Citron. So I'm not even, it's not about that, but just like those are both awesome players. And like, you at least have one. Yeah, definitely. And it does, like, one of the things that does, like, paint this all with a more negative brush is the fact that Ricky Jackson was off to an incredible start this season is out with the 20s. So that that that part of it is obviously out of anybody's control. But at the same time, like, part of that Sonya Citron trade was a potential pick swap this year in 2027, which is slated to be an incredible generational draft that could potentially be headline by Juju Walkins right now. And this, this is a part of it that, like, I, I predicted that this would happen. I didn't think it would happen. Like, quite as poorly as it has. But my thought was essentially that Chicago is going to be good enough. I actually thought they would be good enough to be better than the Washington Mystics. And that pick would not convey. They have not been better than the Washington Mystics. So that pick probably will convey. And they're probably going to be selecting like later on in that draft, like, closer to like that 910 range as opposed to, like, you know, top five or so where that pick could end up falling. If things don't turn around, pretty quickly, but it did feel like they made a lot of short-sighted decisions in order to kind of stave off the embarrassment of having that pick convey. Now that pick is going to convey. They also don't have their 2028 pick because they traded that for JC Sheldon. So if you're a fan, you just, you're looking at the present. The present just looks. You know what? Let's talk about the present. Is the present like the future looks like a present? But the present is maybe interesting? Maybe. And that's also for the future, right? You have this young talent for the future. So you could, I think you can still totally take the other side of the case and say like there is hope. I think you can, the Mystics could still totally collapse. Like last year, it looked like they're going to make the playoffs and they didn't like that could still happen. You're like a big Mystics believer. No, it's not that. It's just that like right now with where the record like I actually do think that things could turn around for Chicago and they could fall apart for the Mystics. Like who knows? Like I can't, it's hard to, it's hard to predict that. But if more than that, like if that's not going to make me optimistic as a Chicago sky fan right now because that is dependent on too many factors that we just haven't seen come to fruition this season. However, I am looking at this young core and Sydney Taylor is freaking awesome. She's averaging like I think over like 15 plus points since being added to the starting lineup. She's just a spot like shooting wise, like her touch, her fearlessness, like her, her, her willingness to embrace different situations. She's one of the best stories in the league. You have to be really happy about Sydney Taylor. Gabriella Hock is struggling as a Blake, but she's a pick that I'm definitely like interested in, right? And she fits that Chicago culture as well. I usually cool Bali is honestly every time I watch her. She's doing something smart. Like she's awesome. I really, I really like her. All the like the smart money loves Aisha. Like all the like the national like media that I talk to love her. I love her. Every time I watch her, she's doing something great. She's great defensively. She's super versatile. Like she can kind of like slot between positions and like she she just like opens things up for you guys defensively. And she's just a really good cutter as well. Like I love I like every every every great team like needs a player like Aisha cool Bali who can just make things happen for you and be a positive without having to you know get reps and like and and set strong up for her. And then of course you have Camilla Cardoso as well who was like shown flashes of truly being the type of player that could anchor and offense anchor a half core offense. I think she also had a really good start to the season defensively. And then like things kind of fell apart as well. And now maybe they're like sort of sort of starting to like get back to that identity. So yeah, like I look at like it's it's strange like because I think this team like they know how to identify talent, right? Like they know how to identify and attract talent, especially young talent. They've had a lot of young talent come through this building. But then they've also had a lot of young talent leave this building. So it's like worst case scenario is we hit 2028 and there's no picks and Camilla Cardoso's like fucking finally I'm done. But there is a universe in which like this young core kind of becomes a start of something and like Slute is the shepherd of that. Like I do think I think that she's a much better pick and roll partner with her as of now, right? Like I do think eventually it's going to turn into like everyone's going to put two on two on Camilla again and maybe Slute makes better decision definitely makes better decisions out of that. But I don't know. There's a world in which things are I'm not going to get like overly optimistic about it, but I think there's a world in which things are maybe okay. So what do you think about the Skys young core compared to like Seattle's and Connecticut's and well Seattle has the best young core and and what oh that's what you believe I absolutely I mean Domalonga and all well famed excuse me together right now like they've been incredible like they've been I think they like Seattle's like seven points per 100 possessions better when the two of them share the court together and they're 19 and 20 years old okay and you're also a flasher coming along and Jade Melbourne's also really young and they have their pick in this this year's draft and they're gonna like they're gonna be really bad the next two years as well don't don't don't go about the picks just just the players and then so if Seattle you rank them a 10 10 out of 10 like where would you like to die like I would give Chicago like maybe I don't know Chicago like because Washington has two players who I think are like all WNBA level and then we'll see kind of like Lauren bats is playing better a more definitely needs more reps but like they have that those two who I believe in on both ends of the on the floor and they work together really well with so Chicago so they get a 10 they get a 10 okay you know it's like the mistakes probably in the best young core they get a 10 Seattle I think it's like I mean Seattle kind of gets a 10 to honestly like they both like these are like the two the two best young cores in the league and Seattle isn't as far along but they're also like the youngest core ever right and then who else did you ask about Connecticut can I get a like oh yeah it's okay so in the young core category okay I would have to think about it on the spot though like still know honestly what okay so you so Chicago is fourth out of those sports we have Laila Lecane and Camila Curtis or probably comparable is like two young players I think they both have really high upside they're incredibly different players so it's really like to compare them wish with with Connecticut this season I'm still in a bit of a wait and see mode as well like what happens when they go to Houston when they probably have a new coach as well like I think this is like a really weird gap year for them and they also still have like Olivia Nelson and Dota is like pretty young at the same time now and Gloma is also really young so I'm willing to see what happens with her like she's only 19 years old what do you think I don't know yet but I think it's a I think it's very interesting that like national media does not put the Chicago's core like in any like they do not put them in the same category as all these other teams like I think everyone believes they're kind of at the bottom of the total poll and I don't think that's a good thing I think you want the national media to have more faith in it and so it's concerning to me I think I'm closer I'm closer to this team up right like I see them every day and so I want to believe in them and so like I would probably put them above Connecticut but I don't know like any higher than that is tough I think you can definitely have the conversation about Connecticut like I think I think like if I really thought about it too like maybe we'd come back and have this conversation and maybe they'd be above Connecticut but yes overall it's a huge right flag for this organization that like they are on the verge of probably having to trade a veteran point guard that they brought in they're gonna start a 37-year-old and they have moved Gabby Hawkes to the bench for Natasha Cloud who is also an aging point guard and they have some interesting young pieces I think you know what I didn't factor in Rikia like I think once I totally like once I factor in Rikia once I factor in Rikia yes like I think they have a better core than Connecticut okay so let's celebrate that that's celebrate okay no I'm serious because they're they're not then they're not at the bottom okay they're not at the bottom they have something of these building teams yes they're ahead of someone they're ahead of someone the guys clips the sun they are I still like but the thing is I still wouldn't feel better about their future because they don't they don't have their picks but I also just have very little faith in this front office as well like I think we're also coming into multiple years of a lack of self accountability on their part too like how many how many how many times can they like come out and blame somebody else too especially if you're if you're Jeff Bagley Aka and Tyler Marsh is on your hot seat now it's like well that was actually your hire like this isn't like firing Teresa Weather Spoon again this one this one's gonna be on you yeah for sure for sure like it's absolutely it's hired but it's his signing if he went to that press conference as well and was like well we better have talent around here because I don't want to be hearing from Skyler Diggins when like like what if she's like in a bad mood or something like that like he knew everybody involved knew what they were getting into like I just it's there's a level of self delusion here that I just I I have a really hard time getting behind even though even if they like situationally like stumbling and finding some good talent no I don't think you can I don't think you can have it both like if you like Sidney Taylor and you like Kea and you like Aisha um those are those are their their findings and I think you could still make the case yeah they know how to bring them in they don't know how to keep them that's a hundred percent fair but I think you should also maybe have some hope base it like the front office was able to bring in those players and you like them well maybe so maybe they're a good good scouting team right like maybe maybe maybe Jeff or who handles are scouting who's like I mean they don't have like they have their assistant they're like coaching staff and Jeff is who does it well yeah this is also an organization has has like one person doing five jobs at once all the time that doesn't necessarily inspire the most faith but at the same time I will allow that do they do a pretty good job at this particular thing which also leads me to believe that maybe they should lead into it and not always give up their draft assets maybe you should know what you're good at and lead into it I don't know I just I can't get there I really can't get there okay but no it's fine it's fine but I just want to like I just what I want to try to like at least keep some hope for you well imagine as somebody who's covering this team you probably in order to retain any level of enthusiasm about your job you probably do feel like you have to lean into some of the good stories around the team as well I see these people every day like I want them to succeed but I just think like everybody dumps on Chicago and it's fair but there's also maybe then we forget about some of the successes what's your what's like you're like the number one thing that you think is like misunderstood about Chicago I think that people just don't like this was the sky were basically like started as like a community service project to like better like they the owners thought that like bringing a women's team to Chicago would like be good for the community and I think that like that ethos of like like one of their missions is to like give opportunity to those who otherwise wouldn't have it like opportunities to coaches and staff and all that kind of thing and that has like maintained even now that the W is like very commercial and becoming more like the NBA I think they still like have this underlying layer where it's like a little bit more of like that community service thing is still there and you look really confused can you ask me I don't know if I was like it's not making sense but I think that that's just like an internal tension where like they I think maybe like to be successful in the modern w you need to be a little bit more like run like a corporation and I think that they still have like some aspects of like a nonprofit profit. Right. Yeah it does. And I imagine like maybe that informs some of the way that they've handled the practice facility as well in terms of like their partnership with Bedford Park and the fact that like it is going to be semi it's like semi it's going to be semi available to the community as well. But ultimately the thing is like the WNBA has changed a lot and at this point I think it is harmful to the growth of the league itself to have one of its top five markets where they've also decided to give them another all-star game as well be run in this manner. For sure and like I obviously like Jeff and Tyler and like the basketball side like they're very much trying to win like they're not trying to give handouts and things like that but I think like organizationally there's like still attention of like are we doing this for like the good of the city or are we like trying to like be a super modern like WNBA team. Yeah but if you're also trying to do things for the good of the city then I think some of the people that they've let go or are people that the city is really embraced like what part of the city are they even talking about and when you think about Chicago it's also one of the most segregated cities in America and sometimes I actually feel like they make C-suite decisions that wouldn't necessarily play that well on the ground right whether it's the Teresa weather Spoon Fireing or the Angel Restraid Kennedy Carter made to a lesser degree like I think you know unfortunately for Ken and just like it seems like it just hasn't worked out in a lot of different places but I think if you are looking to make that type of impact then you also have to care a lot more about what your fans want and what they're embracing like if that was truly the case and I think that they would have seen the opportunity that they had with Angel Reese as far as like engaging like this a city that has a lot of black people in it and I don't necessarily I've never really felt like I got that vibe from them either it doesn't really feel like they fully embrace that like I think like you know that it's down to like the the mascot like it's just kind of there's there's I don't know I understand that there's attention there between like the way that the WNBA used to operate and the way that it operates right now but I think if they wanted to do a community service I think they had plenty of opportunities to do that there I say like more opportunity to do that with this new era of the WNBA the amount of eyeballs that it has on it and um I don't even know if anything on a macro level they've probably done the opposite to be honest yeah um I mean the macro level is like harder to maybe like control or the the way that like they think their decisions are going to be perceived is different from how they I think everything you're saying is like super fair I don't like like if you care about that then why aren't you pushing back against like Chicago Tribune editorials that say that play when your players should be in jail after after after like making a rough play on the court well I think this is also like what I'm talking about with the way that the organization is Ron is like I don't know that they have in the like a department that is staffed like to do that like they don't like something I learned is that most a lot of sports teams have like a separate like communications and marketing team like those are like two separate functions yeah um and the sky don't like the communications person that I work with like reports to like the head of marketing and I think that that's just like an example of like maybe that that's like totally a fine way to run things when you're just kind of like a smaller scale thing um but like once you're once you have like all this attention on you the way that the modern w does um then that maybe like doesn't work and that's not to say that like they won't ultimately like separate those functions like it's it just seems like the sky maybe take longer like they were the last to separate like the GM and the coach and like up until recently they're like strengthen conditioning coach was also like their dobo and like all so it seems like they are just kind of like taking longer to separate out the layers and just like organize themselves more similar to like an NBA team or like you know the links or the liberty or something like that yeah that makes a lot of sense like they've definitely like yeah and like when when you're like ultimate mission was not to be like necessarily like a cutting edge um like NBA team you know your mission was to like bring something awesome to the city of Chicago that like wasn't there before I think it makes sense that you might like go slow like have some more like internal so is it like attention to bonus um yeah it could be it could be a good time to sell the team like oh and fairness but it also like the whole sell the team thing I don't really get into that because like it doesn't really matter like it's his team like he can sell it when he wants to or doesn't want to yeah no absolutely I just think that it's either it's either you get with the speed of where the modern WNBA is or you're kind of going to be dealing with stuff like this and there's also I mean I think so I know that the WNBA like the new standards that there that that existed a CBA for practice facilities and like player health and things like that obviously the facility is coming as far as you're aware staffing wise are they living up to that at this point like have they hired yeah they did they hired like a massage therapist a dietician a mental health performance and like a physical therapist so like the exact like staff that you needed to meet the current CBA they have that um but like you're laughing right because like a lot of other teams had right like it's not like to be celebrated like they've done it to they've done it to the letter of law basically they they've done it to the letter of law like like even like when I talk to Elizabeth Williams about that she would she like defended Michael Alter and was like no I think like those things would have got it's not about just complying with the CBA like these are conversations that we've had over time and like I think that you know he would have done that I don't like to me it's not about that even the CBA just like your sports team obviously you should have those staff members yeah and um yeah yeah I mean here's like they they seem like they are perpetually okay with operating from a place of being at a competitive disadvantage and they think that they are going to make up for it by achieved will of thinking that they're going to make better decisions than everybody else and the thing is they haven't if anything they've been kind of swindled by it seem like the Washington Mystics that is operating in a way that the WNBA hasn't operated before as far as like actually being willing to trade veterans and things like that or um like draft picks like I feel like they if Chicago if anything is on honestly become like the biggest mark for other GMs in in the WNBA to you know give them like give them a call and see what they're willing to give you like getting on the phone with them is just never a bad idea if you're an opposing GM um and that's that's no fun um but hey I know you have to hop I know you have a flight coming up soon um thank you for for for making the time there's always a it's always a spirit of discussion here when it comes to the Chicago sky I'm gonna have to have to fun go back and and figure out how much I owe in our Chicago sky square jar after after this one I think I think it's gonna be a lot um but I appreciate I appreciate you making time Alyssa I think that you're doing fantastic reporting around this team um and I definitely I do appreciate when you are around people every single day that it is a different sort of deal like you do want to um like these are human beings at the at the end of the day and whether or not they're doing a good job or not like they deserve to be treated with like just a level of of of general respect so I do appreciate that aspect of it um and I look forward to reading more of your reporting and seeing what happens with all of this because I think the teams simultaneously in a little bit of a bind but it's it's it's genuinely not too bad of one like the Skylar like the Skylar issue doesn't really change how I feel about Chicago overall in general and and you that can be interpreted in many ways but I appreciate you yeah I appreciate you too this is very fun I love the show I also yeah they do trade Skylar I don't feel super differently about the team um but yeah this was great I got to run okay all right thank you appreciate you all right thank you so much to Alyssa Hirsch for making that time prayers up for her flight right now um Stefan Anderson thank you so much for producing and being here as always and we will be back next week hope you all have a good (upbeat music)