Confronting Religion, Christian Nationalism and the Push for Women’s Submission

Hi, I'm Erica Luguez, your host for today. Today, we're having a conversation we've been meaning to have for a long time. Because yes, most days we're talking about careers, money, and women's economic mobility. But if we're serious about women building power, I mean like real power, then we also have to talk about the systems that shape what we believe we deserve, what we think we're allowed to want, and what we've been thought to tolerate. And for a lot of us, that system was religion. Maybe you grew up with the faith that once felt sacred, and now it's starting to feel complicated. Or maybe you still believe in something bigger, but you're trying to hold on to faith without losing yourself. Maybe you're carrying religious trauma. Name around your body, your ambition, sexuality, choices, or maybe you're watching religion get weaponized. Use to control people, divide our communities, and justify policies that are holding us back. And you're thinking, why are we tolerating this? In this episode, I'm joined by Reverend Laurie Walk. Someone I've admired from afar, because she's one of those rare leaders who can hold both truth and tenderness at the same time. We talk about what it looks like to separate the message from the messengers. How patriarchy has shaped religious institutions, and how deconstructing some of those messages can be a form of liberation. We also get really practical. How to trust your own knowing again. How to recognize when a community is harming you and give yourself permission to leave. How to find spirituality and support without settling for the all-or-welcome bait-and-switch nonsense. And we go straight into the heart stuff too. Christian nationalism, the blur between church and state, and how to stay civically engaged without burning out. Because here's the truth. Women are more than labor. We're more than titles, productivity, caregiving, and keeping everything together. And part of building that full-life and building wealth, stability, and freedom is unlearning some of the narratives that are thought as to become smaller. For our guest, full bio, and show notes, go to www.vester.co/podcast. If you enjoy the episode, share with a friend, and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career into the next level, apply to join our community of women eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.vester.co to learn more. Reverend Laurie has given me permission to call her Laurie. So I'm going to go ahead and do that because this is an unscripted conversation that I've been meaning to have. With somebody that honestly I've admire from afar, and I follow you on social media, and you're one of those pastors that I would say, "You know, if I went back to church, her church would be one that I would go back to." So I just can't tell you how much it means to me that you said yes to this brave conversation. Thank you so much for being here. So happy to join you, Erica. The feelings are mutual and have been cheering for best and for you and for the women who are part of this community for a long time. Thank you. Well, let's get started. I mean, you and I are sitting here in the middle of the country. You were raised baptists in the Bible belt. How have you personally reconciled your Christian faith with your values, especially knowing how often religious institutions have left us out, right, and held us back in a lot of ways? Yeah, I was raised to be a very good Southern Baptist girl. I was raised to be a very good pastor's wife. But what the church that raised me did not realize was that they also raised me to be a very good pastor. And I am the third of four daughters, I have three sisters, and I did not learn sexism at home, primarily because my parents could not afford to be sexist. I didn't have any brothers. So my mom knew how to drive the tractor and my dad knew how to use this will age me a little bit. But knew how to use hot sticks to curl our hair. And it was that church that I learned that I had a place and I needed to stay in it. And I think that that's the experience of a lot of women. And to just briefly get into some cracks, where some cracks started appearing in that facade was in college. I went to Oklahoma State on a basketball scholarship and it turned out that many of my teammates were lesbians. But it also turned out that they were worried about the same things I was worried about. Happy about the same things I was happy about went to church, had their own faith and spirituality just as I did. And that did not align with what I had been told about queer folk. And the second thing that happened was that I never stopped going to church in college. And I was like the 0.01% of college kids that never drop out. But the church that I went to was a Baptist church. But one of the earliest Sundays I was there, they ordained female decans, which was wild to me. And I went home and I told my mom about this and kind of expected her to be like, "That's not great." And she said, "Well, yes, some Baptist churches do that. ours doesn't, but you know, she named another church that was a couple miles down the road from us they do." And, "Well, I'm just very glad that the women at that church are getting credit and recognition for work that they are doing anyway, that women do behind the scenes. I'm really glad for them." And I thought, "Oh, so over the years, how have I reconciled how I was raised, the tradition I was raised in with going into and being ordained by the same institution that has said, no to women so often and tried to use power and control over women specifically in ways that men do not experience." And what I can say is that I have worked to separate the message from the messenger. And that's a little bit tricky, but messengers in almost all religious traditions have been men. And so the message has been framed in patriarchal, patrilineal, patrilocal ways. But that does not mean that the message are those things. And it's a little bit tricky. And it takes some folks pointing out some things, I think, to separate those two things. But I mean, when we look at if we're just going from the text itself, the reality is that a woman is the first person to name God, "Hey, God, names God," before anybody else does. God is not as concerned about Abraham procreating as he is, as God is "Sphere," the start of these ancestors that outnumber the stars. And we know that because Abraham did procreate with Hegar, with another woman. And God was like, no, that's not what we're doing. I really need Sarah in this. Right? But that's not really how the story is told. It's male disciples who are consistently in every gospel are portrayed as dunges. I mean, just absolute morons who do not get what Jesus is trying to do. That is obviously not how the story is traditionally told. But if you just read the text, it's the male disciples who never get it, and then in the story, who consistently see who Jesus is and what He's trying to do. And we can see that in the woman who anointed Jesus with oil. And about her, Jesus says, wherever the gospel is told, this story will be told by her. We have her. The longest theological conversation Jesus has is with the woman at the well. It's like a really long conversation. It's not with a dude. It's not with the male disciples. It's with this woman. And he has this long exchange with her. And of course, there is the big one that everybody always raises up as the resurrection was first announced. Jesus first appeared. not to his male disciples, but to a woman. And she was commissioned to go and tell the others. And so when we separate how the story has been told to us by primarily men, from a message, from the message itself, we begin to see that God has always called women. God has remarkably feminine characteristics. And God has consistently relied on women to make earth as it is in heaven. And so that's, I would say, if we're just going to to a phrase now that I've been talking for 10 minutes, it would be the way I have done that is to separate the messengers from the message. I love that. And it's so true. Didn't think of all, from all those different examples that you provided. I was raised Catholic. Now I'm no longer practicing as I mentioned to you before when I reached out to you. And you know, the older I get, the more I read, and the more experience I gain, the more complicated my relationship has gotten with religion. Honestly, I think I mentioned this to you. I've felt this deep resentment at times, not just because of how the church has treated women, but also because I feel like it's robbed me of something that used to be sacred to me, which was my faith. And a lot of ways I feel like I've lost it. And I know that in conversation with either a vestman, verse, and listeners, they feel the same way, right? Is this constant battle of women trying to make sense of what they were thought and what they believed in for so long and now holding space, whilst you're holding space for faith, but not losing themselves in the process. And I think, you know, again, I know I'm not the only one that's dealing with this. I know we've had conversation with several other women. So for women who are in this in-between space that are questioning what they were thought growing up. Especially around you mentioned it, you know, before and your experience with going to play basketball, and you know, having a lesbian playmates and all of that, you know, those that are questioning gender roles, sexuality, power, but they're not necessarily wanting to walk from faith either entirely. How would you coach them? I don't know what the right word is, but it's my scotching, but how would you help them about deconstructing what no longer serves them while still keeping their faith? A place to start is because it goes against everything most women were taught from their faith community, and that is for us to listen to our bodies and to listen to our knowing, gut, whatever, however you want to phrase that, listen to our knowing, to lean into that. I think so many of us were told that we can't trust our feelings, we can't trust our bodies, and that whatever it is that we are feeling, we probably need to do the opposite of. But I would just encourage you to remember that those that line is mostly about control, to not trust your heart and your soul, your knowing, to not trust your body. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. Why would it make no sense that God would create us and then tell us to not listen to the two creation? But that can be really, really difficult. I'm going to guess, I think a good example of this is a good example of this, is that a lot of women raised in faith communities specifically in the Bible, Bel, were told that they sex is bad, sex is bad, bad, bad, until you're married, and then you should be really great at it, even though no one has taught you anything about it and you've been told to distrust your body repeatedly. And so I invite people who are having questions to sit with that feeling that is telling you that something is not right about the tradition that you were handed or the beliefs that you were handed that have come in a nice meat box and you just have to follow the instructions and everything will be fine. To actually sit with and say, "All right, what is not right about this? What is not matching my experience of God and other people with what I have, my embedded theology with the theology I was raised to think was correct." And when we start listening to ourselves, I think it becomes pretty clear that what we are rebelling against is not necessarily the message, not necessarily faith or belief or spirituality, but about the package in which it is wrapped. Many of us are deeply uncomfortable with the patriarchy and we for some reason have decided that it is unacceptable for us to participate in patriarchy in all other aspects of our life, except for religion. And for some reason we have decided that that's the one place where we'll just put up with it. We'll just go along and get along. When everything inside of us is saying, "This is not what we were made for. This is not honoring God or love. This is not honoring justice and mercy, kindness and goodness. It's not honorable. It's not right. I need to find somewhere that honors my experience and my understanding of God and other people." And so if you are thinking something is not right, listen to that voice. Listen to that voice. And I am a firm believer that we all have knowing. We have a knowing. And if you start listening to that, you'll figure out the next step. I mean, I will see all the way down the road, but you will know, "Hey, I need to step away from this." And maybe I can dip my toe in the water in another place or another community. But it's tough. It's tough. It is tough. But I do love that. Yet trusting, you know, I still hold on to my faith in spirituality. I mean, I know that there's something bigger. And like you, I do hold on to the things that feel right to me. Yeah. Things that, you know, even when I was practicing a practicing Catholic, you know, the things that didn't feel right to me, I always discarded them. So it's easy for me, you know, I'm always like the message against the LGBTQ community, the message around abortion. All of those messages never resonated with me and it was totally okay. But again, the older I get, I don't know, maybe I'm in this, this is maybe inappropriate for me to say in front of you, but I tell you, "Well, I'm in my fuckiest age, you know?" And so anyway, so it's become a little bit harder to accept the message, but I love how you position it and just ask yourself. Well, and I would say to, I think that's a really good stage to be in. You definitely need to be in that stage because there's a point where you just have to say, "This is not working in. I'm not going to participate. I'm not contributing my time, my energy, my expertise. I'm not doing it." And what I will say, I do want to gently encourage people to do is, "Yeah, that's good." But also, think about what are the things that you are missing? What are the things that bring you comfort, that challenge you about? Maybe it's from a tradition that you are raised in. Maybe it's something else that you've encountered on your life's journey. But I'm going to maybe do some assuming here, but I know that for a lot of the former Catholics who are in my congregation, some of the things that they miss include what we lovingly call the smells and bells. And those are things that, and I would say that is in part because their body remembers that those are things that help them regulate. And I know this is not sounding as spiritual so much as it is, like, just very practical. And I don't apologize for that because I think that we can make religion and spirituality frankly not helpful as far as actually changing our behavior and impacting our life. But things like that, rituals and routines that you miss desperately. I mean, are there things that you feel like immediately come to mind for you when I say that? Honestly, for me personally, I don't miss those rituals as much as I do. Again, it's like this deep hell resentment that I have when I think, when I even think about the institution or organize really. And it's not just, you know, with Catholicism, it's with everything, right? And again, you know, the oppression that has consistently persisted. And I know, Laurie, that that is human behavior. You know, like I know all the right things that people say, but it still feels, it just feels like resentment that I need to work through on my own. And it actually leads to my next question that I was going to ask because, you know, we're living in a moment where religion is just increasingly weaponized in public, in politics and in public life. And just, you know, and I say that because we're both located in Oklahoma and, you know, recently at OU were, by the way, my daughter goes to a student was backed by, you know, this organization turning point USA. And they sued the university because, you know, the, the, the student side of the Bible in a classroom assignment, claiming her religious freedom was violated because I guess she got a zero on the assignment. And, you know, that has turned into, you know, turning point, turning that into a big spectacle. And again, using the Bible and using this religious freedom arguments, now even against education institutions, right? I mean, I feel bad for the, like if I was, you know, President Harris, I don't think personally that they handle it. Well, both him and the regions, I don't know what discussions may have happened. But I do see how this organization turning point USA is purposely using religion and weapon izing, in my opinion, the Bible to make a lot of their arguments and assumptions. And then they're making a PR, the buckle over this. So to that, you know, that's just one example. And we can point to other examples that we've seen. How do we hold those institutions and individuals at the individual, including myself, accountable when religion is used to divide or dominate conversations when it's used to alinear people, you know, how do we deal with that? Yeah. And this is a real problem. And Christian nationalism is a problem specifically for the church to address because it's a church problem. The one of the things that I talk a lot about is precision and language. And when people talk about politics in the church, there's like, oh, you know, there should, no politics in the pews and no politics at the table, right? Those are the rules. Because of course, that's how you control the conversation when you don't allow people to engage when you limit what they can and can't talk about. So I invite people to think more specifically about the definition of politics is versus, for instance, what partisanship is. And partisanship for me is the definition of partisanship would be behavior that harasses an enemy, which is not behavior that I would think I think that people of faith ought to engage in. And I do want to say this, when I talk about people of faith, what I really mean that in a broad sense that includes agnostics and atheists. Because when I talk about faith, I am talking really about values. And of course, atheists and agnostics have values. We all have values. So I'm saying that in a really broad sense. But so partisanship is this very particular thing. And politics, while we use it as sort of a synonym, partisanship as a synonym for politics, they're different things. Politics comes from the Greek word polis, which means of the city. And politics, when we engage in politics, we are shaping the city. So when we talk about politics, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about laws and norms and whether we are going to shape a society that is patriarchal, xenophobic, racist, sexist. And we can let the world be shaped in those ways. Or people of faith, people of values, can engage in politics. And that's very different than engaging in behavior that harasses an enemy. Right? It really broadens our ability to work on things for the common good. And I love you. You started this by saying that whether or not we should talk politics within the church. But I think it applies. What you just said, I love it, making the distinction between politics and partisanship. Because I think we can apply that if we were to apply that at every level, even at a family level, right? How many of us were thought not to talk politics during Thanksgiving or during the holidays or to not engage in discussion? Because it's, anyways, I love how you said it. We just focus on the loss or the practices or the how we're shaping the city as opposed to, well, you're wrong or I'm right or a difference as of opinion. I think perhaps we could accomplish a lot more. Yeah. I mean, if we just really take a giant step away from this gamesmanship, this peamsmanship, and that's really what partisanship is, is this us versus them, red versus blue, who's going to win and who's going to lose? When we frame it like that, it gets really difficult to make any forward progress. And I think that I don't think that church going to church being a family that is in church every time that doors are open necessarily makes for good people. There has been so much harm done in the name of religion. But what I do think the church can provide is an alternative framework from what society relentlessly pushes as the most important. And part of that is, and I say this as a student athlete, the world tells us that athletics and sports is the most important thing. And we should be shaping our lives around a football season schedule or a basketball season schedule. And so we're not thinking about this, but it also really cultivates this unhealthy competitiveness of all the time. It's not enough to just cheer for your team. You have to actively root for the demise of everyone else. And when the church is at its best, it offers a space for us to not be in competition with each other, but for all of us to be working for the good of everyone when it's at its best. So what would you say with this in mind and this mindset going back to the question of what do we do with the bad actors or in my opinion, bad actors that the institutions that are using religion and politics and partisanship to for a specific agenda, right? It's like clear. How do we, because I see, unfortunately, you know, people that, people in our community, they get persuaded by some of this message in the name of the Bible or in the name of religion. Yeah. Yes, if we all go back to like, hey, does this really make sense for our community, for our people, for how we're building the city, of course, but, you know, we live in a world of social media with rage, hate, clicks, and, you know, people get angry. So it's really not, we're constantly being thrown all of these messages of division. How would you coach us to, you know, get back to these specifics and get back to and how do we hold those institutions accountable so that they don't continue to misinform and continue to divine in a very in my it's it's like very obscure way right because again they're using this religious religious language and and and that's even more dangerous because it's again it's persuading people that maybe don't mean to but they end up doing it anyways Yeah, I think one of the things that is I think there are many ways to approach this I think I'm gonna name this first one and I I mean I I'm gonna risk offending some people here, but my congregation will tell you that that does not bother me at all If you are going to a congregation if you're attending some kind of a house of worship that is not speaking out against Christian nationalism that does not have women in leadership and I'm not talking just as a Christian ed director But doesn't but refuses to put women in leadership That is not Aligned with your values of inclusion and diversity and equity to specifically say those words leave Stop giving them your time your energy your money your resources your family stop it You are propping up institutions that are perpetuating harm stop it I know this seems probably I'm sure someone will be like well, this is self-serving, but I Agently invite you not gently. I insist you explore Finding a house of worship a community of faith or some other kind of gathering that is led by women Try just try a tradition that is not So committed to the patriarchy that it still refuses to put women in leadership For so long the people have said well, I'm gonna change it from the inside and you might be able to do that But there comes a time when you have to say it's not happening here and I need to I need to I need to throw my lot in With people who are already embodying the values. I say that I The other thing that I really encourage people to do is really drill down into their own values so that they can Connect with folks who are using wild logical excuses to cause harm So when we're talking about reproductive choice and Access to reproductive care when we're talking about LGBTQ equality We need to start talking about Freedom of conscience freedom of speech Things that translate outside of the logical language But I mean I not I could make the argument are obviously could could be made from a theological perspective, but not everything has to be to Broadened the avenues for us to meet in the middle To find a way and I say meet in the middle in a very serious way. That's a really hard thing to do We do not often acknowledge this, but the fact of the matter is usually what's best for everybody means that No one is completely happy with the process that note that everyone The the most successful mediation is a mediation in which nobody got everything that they wanted the best legislation that passed Call and learn this my husband when he was served in the House of Representatives learn this the best legislation Is the legislation that came out of compromise? The we say at one of those things I have is that Sacred cows make the best hamburgers and if we can all just give up a little bit of what we you know Completely ride all the time We might actually make some progress One of the many things that I love about you is your advocacy your your real advocate Not just a name, but you're out there Doing Literally the Lord's work in my opinion because Engage in especially in in a state like ours, you know, we're we're located in one of the Redis although I tell people I'm I'm gonna stop saying red states and I'm gonna call them rig states because we know how much Jerry mandering exists in in a state. I'm stealing that. I am stealing that that is so great. It's true But you're a progressive leader in a deeply conservative state right now and we're seeing you know We just talked about how this Christian nationalism is blurring the lines between church and state now more than ever With a very clear political agenda in mind and And you kind of talked about you know, yes, we should talk about politics Even within the church, but what do you think? What do you think is the appropriate role between the church and politics should I mean I'm not worried about you per se, but you know, I am worried about we are worried about everybody else Well, I'm worried. I know what you mean at the money That's going behind some of these institutions the the very you know I mean we're seeing it with project 2025. We're seeing it with turning point USA We're seeing it with these organists. I mean turning point USA. I think when I looked at the statistics They raise over 93 million dollars in one year. I mean, they're extremely well-funded A lot of people think that they're this you know, they're just going to colleges and having conversations or debates with College kids which that's not at all their business model. They're both PR media campaign to really drive a political message To then gain political power. I mean, it's Again, it's very obscure. So in a way, I'm always like you know, but then I see you and you're doing grassroots advocacy and in really targeting Issues that actually affect most Americans not dividing us like you're saying and So I struggle with what should the role be from the clergy from You know church leaders in politics I'm struggling with it. So what do you think? Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's tough And I would just say because some people have said we need a religious left to match the religious right But I don't think that that is the most faithful response um Because what we're seeing is theology that that that people are confusing Parties and platforms the Republican party platform with the gospel Yeah, that's how it's true and I Um that is absolutely not what I want to copy like and people often do not know this but I've actually never been a registered Democrat and my whole life um I have Then um I was a registered Republican until um until 2017 When I became an independent because I wanted to make sure that I could vote for my husband if he was in a primary and um So that surprises people sometimes but the the reality is that again for me Partnership is one of the least faithful things we can do um Part of the problem with that though is that political parties are how people um Organize into power right? It's how they um build power So how can we build power without falling into these traps of partisanship and so because the church absolutely should not be engaging in that kind of um Political action right we again we don't want to engage in behavior that harasses an enemy um and that's what people get so turned off by Because Christian nationalism the moral majority the religious right turning point all of that is it's really partisanship About the hoarding of resources and power And that doesn't that doesn't feel anything like the gospel Um, so how do people who have a more generous theology a more progressive orientation? How do we build power in ways that aren't uh self-seeking um and This is this is really when it comes down to relationships and um Most of our our political work at the congregation I serve is done through an organization called voice voices organized in civic engagement and it is made up of mostly religious institutions, do's paying organizations, churches that are committed part of their budget to this work. It consists of Catholics, Unitarians, Methodists, Baptist, Lutherans, Discaparians, you name it, we've got it, Mid-O-Nights, and we work on, we don't work on everything because we don't agree on everything, but we do talk to each other enough to say, "Hey, here are the things that we are all facing that our families are all struggling with. What can we do to impact that?" And so again, I know that I sound like a broken record, but it's this really taking time to discern the difference between partisan work and political action. And I will say to rather than a list of things that people ought to believe, I really think that people need to take a step back and think about guiding principles. So when we're thinking about, how can we make sure that we don't become the religious right or the moral majority or these Christian nationalists who are insisting that everybody believe the same way that they believe? I think that there are four different things that we need to think about. I think that we need to insist that the church can serve the prophetic tradition, that we push back against the doxy, we push back against anything that says, anyone that says, you have to believe this, no matter what, full stop period. That's just too rigid. It's too rigid. It doesn't adapt to changing understandings, the gains and insight we have from science, from the study of human history and socialization. We cannot adapt and grow if we are too rigid all the time. I think the second thing that we really have to, people of faith really have to insist on is interpreting scripture with intellectual honesty. We have to be honest about the fact that our sacred texts were written in a very specific time and place and by people who had agendas. I think the third thing we really have to do is orient ourselves towards social justice. I'm speaking directly to folks who are evangelical in this way. We've really personalized salvation that it's just about our personal ticket to heaven, making sure we don't owe to hell. The salvation in the Bible is absolutely politically oriented. It is about rescuing people from hell on earth that they are experiencing through tyrants, through the Roman Empire, from poverty, saving people from poverty, from isolation. If we can shift our view from it being solely focused on personal salvation to a political salvation, keeping in mind our definition of politics, saving of the city. We will not repeat some of the mistakes that we're seeing with the militarization of religion. The last thing I think might be the most important thing, but I think we have to all practice theological humility. That does not mean that you cannot hold certain things sacred or dear or believe them deeply. It just means that you also recognize that we cannot possibly have all the answers. Yeah, that someone may know something else. Yeah. Yeah. And that out of that, out of that humility comes the desire, comes curiosity. Right? What do you say, Laurie, to, you know, adversely best focuses on supporting women throughout their career, but also as they, you know, find their voices as they bill, hopefully economic mobility and financial stability. And when I talk to a lot of women, you know, most of them vote, most of them, you know, but it's hard because then you have to vote at the local states. I mean, and then we have to work and then we have to do unpaid labor at home, caring for kids and doing the house will work. And I feel like a lot of women want to engage, but the barriers include, you know, not knowing how, getting overwhelmed, you know, and it can be divisive. But one of the biggest one is losing relationships. Right? Because a lot of our political views are shaped by who we know and our family and our friends and people we work with. And sometimes when I talk to women, a lot of them feel that if they speak out or if they start engaging that they're going, that they might alineate friendships, maybe some family members. And so they opt for not speaking out, which, you know, I always talk about like, look, you don't have to, you know, there's so many different ways in which we can engage. It doesn't have to be public or in social media or, you know, so from way so, of course. But what I fear the most is not only that they're not speaking out, but they're not engaging. Right? And it's easy to do because right now, I mean, every day you open the news or you open your social media fee. And it's like one thing after another. So I also hear people just tuning everything out to focus rightly so on their career, on their family and in their community or the relationships. So how do we coach women on how to be civically engaged and contribute to the building of our city without getting overwhelmed? Understand the risk, right? That sometimes you might lose relationships that may or may not serve you. Understand the risk that, you know, sometimes courage, deaths, have unfortunately repercussions, right? Like as we've seen, unfortunately, with this administration. As serious as what your thoughts are, in curious, if your congregation, members of your congregation have also come to you to ask these type of questions because it's a constant conversation, topic of conversation at best. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, that is something that I had to wrestle with myself as I walked away as I disengaged from the tradition that raised me. I mean, and stepped into, you know, pursued ministry as a vocation, pursued ordination as a woman. That was painful for my own relationships with my family of origin. With the people who had raised me at church, who I loved, who were wildly confused about what I was doing. It's really challenging to stay in relationship when you know that what you are doing is going to cause some kind of riff. And so it's easiest to not just maintain the status quo. But of course, that gets increasingly harder. And I think, especially as women age and we recognize how important it is for us to be true to ourselves. It's hard to be satisfied with that status quo. And so I want to just acknowledge that it's really hard and it's really tough. And it is very easy to focus on what we're going to lose. But the truth is we don't know what we're going to lose. Just like we don't know what we're going to gain. Change in any relationship is life. Like our relationships are always changing. Right, our relationships with our parents are always changing. Right. We're always sort of inching towards that role reversal with our parents. Friendships are not always lifelong. Sometimes they're for a season. I think moms know that best. I think I think especially moms of little know that best. For moms with college kids who don't want to spend time with you anymore, that's me. That's my. You know, I it's totally rude of them. Yes. I always feel remandone attached to your identity to your work or to your title or company. But I forgot myself to not attach it to even motherhood, right? Because you know, rightly so, they want to do their own thing and they want to live their own life. But it's still like my identity. Hard. Yes. Well, and that's the thing is you've been working for this. You want them to be independent. You want them to be differentiate, self differentiation and all things. And also how I wrote them to actually. do it. Exactly. But what you gain instead is a relationship with your adult child who are brilliant and they are figuring things out and showing you things that you had no idea about. Yes, if that's sometimes hard, okay, yes it is definitely, but also hard is not the only experience. So I will also say, you know, as people are feeling overwhelmed, it is very easy to feel overwhelmed with state and national and world news. In addition to all of our personal anxieties, family, job, health, our parents' health, right, all of these things are demanding our attention. And what I do think that we need to remember is that nobody has to do these things alone. Someone is working on legislation, gun sense legislation. Somebody is doing that work. You do not have to create it whole cloth. You can just come alongside somebody who is already doing really good and meaningful work. Reproductive justice. There is somebody already working on that, whether it be in the like just normal secular arena or in the faith community. Somebody is already doing that work. You do not have to recreate the wheel. Just enter the stream of the flow of justice. It is happening. So don't feel like it is all on your shoulders to somehow create a movement. It may not be as loud as some of the other movements that are going on. But the only way that movements grow is for people to step into the stream, to join the choir, so to speak. And I think that, you know, I brought up voice in that organization. And I think it is an example of just how great it is to be in a community where you don't agree on every single thing. One of my dearest friends and colleagues is Father Tim Lucien, who is at Littleflower Catholic Church. And Father Tim jokes with me that he is, I am his favorite matching outfit, buddy. Because when we show up together, we are both in our collars. We are collared up, baby. And Tim needs me as much as I need Father Tim. We have come from very different paradigms, very different traditions. Oh, but that pales in comparison to what we have in common. And a deep devotion to easing the burdens on the families around us. His tradition has such a, such much, it's deeper experience in charity, in meeting the needs of neighbors that I can learn from. And Father Tim can tell you what he's learned from me. But we work together all the time. And I am richer for it. And so is he. And I think that that translates to the rest of us. Women often, you know, we have so much to carry. We are socialized that way. But we forget that we are surrounded. We are surrounded by help. But we have to, we have to reach out and take it, reach out and accept it. And it is a reminder that we're just never alone. Someone is always doing the work. And we just, we just need to come alongside. There's no, no, no reason to feel like that you have to become smaller. Yeah. Or do it all on your own. I love that message so much because, you know, one, you, we started talking about this because from, from the perspective of sometimes you lose relationships, sometimes you gain new ones, right? You might lose some relationships, but if you build a community and I love how you said, you know, you don't have to recreate the wheel. The most sustainable movements are those, it's the collective. And the other reason I love your message so much is because I think that as a, as a, as a country, you know, we're so focused on capitalism and so focused on meritocracy, whether you believe that's a myth or not, you know, that's available. But it's, it's, it's the individual responsibility, I suppose, to the collective, right? And I think throughout your messages and throughout your responses, you've talked about the, the importance of reliant on that community and, and shift in our mindset from, you know, even salvation, you know, individual salvation to like, hey, we're all in this together, right? And we have to look out for one another. We have to create policies that support one another. And even if this doesn't affect me right now, it affects you. So let's figure out a way that, you know, helps all of us move forward. So, but the last thing I wanted to talk about this specific subject that you mentioned is, you know, church has played, has always played such an important role in bringing community, right? And, and, and, and bringing people together and providing that support system for people. But right now, if you look at the numbers, and I'm sorry, I didn't bring in with me, but the numbers have like the new generation not going to church. And, you know, spending so much time on social media. And we've seen even with the prior administration, you know, there were multiple studies done on how isolation is coming to a real problem with mental health, not just in our youth, but in, in everyone. Yeah. So just curious as I'm sure it's a topic of conversation, you know, for any church leader to say, we're losing people from all, you know, different walks of life and in ages, how do we continue to create community? And how do we, or how can people find that community? You mentioned a couple of ways, you know, find, you know, organizations that are focused on movements that you care about. That's one way to engage in community and, and, and find people to do it with. But what about the church? Are you guys talking about this? Just curious. Oh, oh my gosh. Yes, yes, of course, always. And I'll tell you that part of my Dr. Ministry work was on, um, do with, with folks no longer feeling obligated to attend church, to continue in the tradition that they were raised or, or to continue in organized religion at all. And, um, frankly, on the whole, I actually think that's really good. Thank goodness that is happening. Thank goodness that people are actually thinking about whether or not the, an institution, a faith institution is actually meeting their needs and, uh, living into the values actually actuating, operationalizing the values that, uh, they espouse. Thank goodness that finally. I will also just say people probably over reported their church attendance in the 50s and 60s. Okay. Thank you. That's true. Fair. Right. Like, you don't say, yeah, I mean, like nobody reported that they really smoked as much as they did or drank as much as they did. And, uh, you know, they also probably didn't go to church as much as they said they did. That's true. It's the same. Like, they're not, like, it's, they're parallel, parallels. Um, and we see that too in, um, political affiliation. People are stepping away from our, you know, these younger generations are like, you, these, uh, our major political parties are nuts. And I don't identify with either of them. I, like, neither of you are speaking to my values. And so people are stepping away from that just like they're stepping away from church. Um, that does not bother me at all. Um, because it provides opportunity for clarity, uh, for the church to say, um, for churches who, who want to continue in some ways to say, we are devoted to the patriarchy. We are devoted to, um, uh, to insisting that women stand their place. We are devoted to, uh, a very narrow definition of what makes a family. Uh, we're very devoted to that. And so if these are your values, come on. Great. Thank you for being clear about that. Um, and so that also means that there are faith communities that say, um, God loves the rainbow. Women have always been called by God. And we can, uh, do more together than we can apart. So I'm not going to fight you over the virgin birth great Great if you share our values through that what I do think is a little bit worrisome are those congregations that do the bait and switch that say all are welcome and then it turns out that they won't let You know the a pair of lesbans teach Sunday school or it turns out they won't officiate your wedding and And I think people have to be really Careful of that and and you need to insist on clarity And do not settle that is the other thing that I want to say to women do not settle Yes, and I try one of those mega churches. I'm gonna call them that you are talking about and Central you know another thing I would say it's in the narrative right like this very I Feel like I was going to the fucking gym excuse my language, but it just felt like bros talking to each other and You know talking about their muscles and how they love their ladies and I don't it's just everything I was like what in the world yes like everybody like my bride and Yes, we call them theology bros. They're theobros. Yes. Yes. Okay. Good. Yeah, and I know just say I Do you want to acknowledge that it is I think mega churches or churches that you know you can walk into and you're very anonymous and Those are the easiest places just to Or they can be Attractive at first. Yeah, because it is I'm gonna say it's hard to walk into A medium-sized church even a medium-sized church like Mayflower where you're not going to be anonymous Where people are gonna miss you if you're not like if they don't see you And a couple of Sundays they're gonna miss you and they're they may even text you and say are you okay? I'm just making sure everything's okay. I'm not shaming you and pretending, but I just want to make sure you're okay um, we've had to actually Remind people that it is okay to ask people that they haven't seen in a while if they're all right I think it's okay to reach out. Yeah, um, but all is just checking it right, but but what that is is actually community Yeah No, totally and it's messy and it's a little awkward and uncomfortable One of the things that Church at it best can be is people that say hey I've been noticing you've been acting weird or the things you're posting on social media have been concerning Can we talk about? About that or hey you are upset as I am that we had mass shootings all over the world Say night and say I mean on Saturday night and thank goodness we could come to church and somebody said This is awful. Why do we not have an assault rifle weapon ban? How is it possible that we are still not banning assault weapons I want to do something with me about that. Yes Should be able to walk into your church and say and and and and and experience um, but it requires vulnerability a word that you used earlier Yeah And and I just love this so much and I'm just gonna have to come You know try it out because another reason why I wanted to have this conversation You know, I talked to so many women again. We all have different lived experiences. We all have different privileges, you know um In so many women don't have a support system at home Right, um, they don't have a partner. Maybe they don't have a uh, uh, they're not close to their family whatever and I feel like um, you know church Wes a mechanism for them to support them one of my favorite books um of all time is um Holding it together how women became America's safety net and Good and bad right like the church has Served as a safety net for women to have the support that they don't need another bad thing is we should put Mechanisms in place in government to care for those that need it the most and not shame them For accessing those things that we pay for as taxpayers anyway, but that's on another conversation And so but I love how you just reframe The churches and it community that cares about you and that can be there for you When you need it to support you not judge you um and to walk along uh side you And and Erica I just want to throw out there. I said this earlier Don't settle if you are feeling like there is something missing That your spiritual wellness is not where it needs to be don't settle um and I know I'm the one that's on the on the podcast right now But I'll tell you I have we have some incredible I have incredible colleagues who lead really um impactful caring congregations um and I can whether you're looking for a recommendation for a Christian community or a non-Christian A spiritual community um or a variety whatever variety of Christian whatever flavor you'd prefer um I I you know there are there are a lot of churches that are You know they wouldn't necessarily call themselves even progressive um But but that but there is a place out there for everyone um and and Too often women settle Got to quit it quit Settling your spiritual wellness matters. It is an important part of you and you should tend to it just like you do everything else I love that What um I know you're a writer um in fact when I need a new book to read I'm like let me see if Laurie has posted any any new books. I know I've gotten some suggestions for you What books do you recommend for people who are exploring? You know there is a lot of there are a lot of options if you are someone um coming in the out of the Christian tradition One of the books I recommend most often is a book called speaking Christian by Marcus Borg And he does a really wonderful job of just explaining that there are a variety of options when it comes to thinking theologically um That was one of the most difficult things for me when I was um Leaving the southern Baptist Church. I Didn't know anything about anything. I knew what I was supposed to believe what I was told and it can be really Disconcerting to be like well, I don't know I Can't possibly just Walk away from everything. Yeah, that doesn't feel right. It was the same for me You know as Mexican immigrant. I mean capitals. What do you mean? There's other really what what other religion? You know, so I had to like learn from scratch and you know not settle Um, so I'm still in that uh searching mode for me Um, let's talk a little bit about religious trauma because I know it's real and a lot of women a lot of people in general are caring ones from teachings that have shamed us for All the different things we've already talked about including ambition for women um, you know, that's a big one um, but also for our um Our community and the LGBT Q+ community, right? And then often runs even deeper there So just curious as to what is healing look like for those of us reckoning with that kind of spiritual harm? Yeah, religious trauma is real and it is far too common and One of the first things is if you are currently in a place that is perpetuating that trauma you have permission to leave um, if Religion is traumatizing you it is not of God And I don't I'm not gonna say that in any I'm not gonna try to sugarcoat that at all. You need to you need to leave and you have permission to leave and God Would want you once you to to remove yourself from harm and I think that one of the things that's really important is to find uh, people to Talk to about that who will not deny it um, I mean, I'll tell you one of the the first things that I say to particularly members of the queer community who come in the doors Is I'm sorry I'm sorry for the way that that the church Has told you that you're that you're wrong Or an abomination or you know, so that that that there's there's something wrong with you I'm sorry for that ways that that we have excluded you um And I think that a lot of people need to hear that a lot of women need to here, I'm sorry that the church told you to stay in an abusive relationship because that's what God wanted. No one ever, why didn't, why did no one ever be like, oh, you know, God never asked a dude to stay in an abusive relationship. Like, what? Right? Or I'm sorry that, that you were, you were told that, you know, any number of harms. I find someone who acknowledges that, that, that harm has happened and religious trauma is real. I also then encourage people to tend to their spiritual wellness and there are a variety of ways to do that. And we do indeed have to do that in personal private ways, but it also has to be done in community. It's not either or it's a both and healing. That, that's just how healing works. And so one of the, the, the books that I often recommend to people now is a book by Reverend Lizzie McManus Dale. And she wrote a, it's technically a devotional book, which I know might be triggering for people, but that's just, that's the format of the book. But I love, my, her title of the book is my favorite and it's called God didn't make us to hate us. And it is, it's a devotional that helps people liberate, faith and reconnect with joy. And so if this is not something that you can just do on your own, it requires, you know, there's, um, re learning stories of faith told outside of the paradigm of patriarchy outside of heteronormativity, outside of those frameworks that have boxed us in for so long. So find a resource, find a, you know, whether that's a book or, um, a blog or a sub stack, find something that you can do some exploring, but also try to also look for and do not settle for anything less than a community that will help you tend to your spiritual wellness, healing and restoration. I love that. To close us up, I just actually posted, um, a video about the most recent lean in and McKinsey report women in the workplace. I don't know if you saw it, but, um, I mean, if you actually read the report, you know, there's some nuances there, but the, the, the, the, they started off by saying that women are now less ambitious and men. On the same report, they also say that when given the same level of resources and support, they're not. So contradict. Gee, I wonder how we could achieve. Exactly. But, but my point is, you know, we have that. And then we just talked about the rise of Christian. Well, I don't know if it's rice. It's always been there, but it seems a lot more. As a propaganda via social media, the rise of Christian nationalism, uh, purity culture, also on TikTok. I'm sure you've seen all the videos and then the tradwife content also that are glorifying women's submission and. Magnum mistake. I love women who choose to stay at home and care for the loved ones. We have a, we have best members that are actually not in the workplace right now, but. We have a lot of our stay in home. So not judging, but, but, but you are seeing this. Lureification of submission almost in this tradwife. And I don't know about you, but it's hard to see all of that and remain hopeful. But previous speaker on the Vess, on the Vess podcast, you know, reminded us that hope is a discipline. So I always like to ask now, how do you stay disciplined? I'm hoping to be hopeful. What are the things that are keeping you hopeful and what are the things that you do to make it a discipline? Yeah, so in some ways, hope is a professional obligation for me, right? Hope is a professional obligation for preachers and some there are days when I think, oh my goodness. I'm called into ministry because I am a glass half empty girl. I'm like, let's keep our expectations low. We can never be disappointed that way, which is obviously a trauma response. Maybe clear, but I'm working on that with my therapist. The thing I mentioned earlier, some of the things that I find hope in are include that people are actually, what organizations, what collections, what communities they want to be part of, and they are only going to devote their time and their energy and their resources to those with which they share values. And I think it's even getting now, we're even getting deeper into that where it's not just you share this value. You are operationalizing this value. You are putting it into practice in ways that I can, that we can see and feel and are making a difference. And I see that all the time. I mean, I see that in certainly I think, you know, we first saw it in Gen Xers and millennials and it is only getting worse better with these upcoming generations. And I also see, you know, we are all very worried about technology and phones and social media and addictions and all those things. But we're seeing study after study where when young people are given the option to detox when they go through a, you know, a cell phone detox, a smartphone detox or social media detox. And I came out on the other side and they, their behavior has changed and they say, oh, I, I like myself better when I put some guardrails around this. They, they know they, they are aware that things are not right and they are willing to make changes. And so that is a very hopeful thing to me. The other thing that I find really hopeful is that people are saying no and pushing back against Christian nationalism against extreme partisanship. And we are seeing it everywhere. I know what the headlines seem completely terrible. But the fact of the matter is, those Republicans in Indiana, they said no. Pretty hopeful. And Tennessee, I mean, I often did win, but she came pretty cool. I mean, what Trump won by 20 point, plus point. I can remember. But then she came in and you know, nobody. And that gives me hope to even for places like Oklahoma, you know, it's very easy to write us off as a red state as a, you know, because we're not a, you know, battleground state or whatever. And I think that, you know, I think that's such a mistake for everyone involved because I think that's what in a lot of ways what has fueled this populism, right? Like this rise in people feeling left out, feeling left out of, of, of, you know, the policies that are being shaped on Washington DC, feeling left out of these innovation economy, if you will. And, you know, I think people are just tired, right? They're tired and they're standing up to your point. Don't care what political party you belong to. You're either for us or not for us, right? And the guy to service and support people, not corporations, not billionaires, but people. And so I think you're right. That gives me hope. Hope is a muscle exercise it. And, and one of the best ways we can do this is are these kinds of conversations, Erica, this community that you are leading is vital is is so vital. It is a hope generator is how I would phrase how I would characterize it. And, and we need, we need more of, we need more of this. If you enjoyed this episode, please share with a friend and don't forget to leave us a review. And if you're ready to take your career to the next level, apply to join our community of women eager to help you get there and stay there. Go to www.vasther.co to learn more.