Confronting a Union Organizer

(clock ticking) - This is a head gum podcast. - Everyone come to the Uptown Theater, 38 and Broadway. What a hero with K. (laughs) Extrapaganza. (upbeat music) - These. - Sub-kayla. - What's up? I'm so excited to have you here. - And I'm excited to be here. - Midtown Denise Brown. - Hmm. - You are one of my favorite people that I have met in the last couple of years. We met through KC Tenants. And KC Tenants has done so many cool things in my life, but allowing me to meet people like you has been the best part I'm so excited to be talking with you. - Oh, that is so sweet. Now feel so on. (laughs) And I feel the same way. - Oh, thank you. Denise, tell everybody, so this is my podcast, so true. Tell the listeners a little bit about yourself. - How are you from, what do you have to, what's your life like? - Hmm, hmm. Okay, my name is Denise Brown. And I am originally from Kansas City. I grew up here in Kansas City, Missouri. - Hmm. - And I did leave the area for about 11 and a half years. - Where'd you go? - I lived out East. - Out East? - Oh yeah, New Jersey. - You were in Jersey? - Yes. - I don't think I remembered this. - Yes, I was in Jersey and hung out in New York. Probably could say I probably lived in New York too, as much as I was in New York. - Yeah. - What, so when was this? When did you go to Jersey? - In the mid-70s. - Mid-70s. - And I stayed there to late '80s. - So what took you from Kansas City to New York in the 70s? - Job. - Job. I was working with AT&T and at the time my husband got a job. And since we both worked with AT&T, they do the traveling spoustings. So they found me a job there. So that's how I ended up in Jersey. - Wow. - Okay, backing up a little bit. I'm very interested in that. You born and raised in Kansas City, and then when do you meet your husband? - I met him early 70s going to Penn Valley. - Going to Penn Valley. - And plus we both worked with AT&T. - Yeah, and that's how you met. Nice. And then how did you guys meet? Is it a cute story? - Yeah, it is. (laughing) - Well, I can't you what? - Okay, we both were working with AT&T and we were working the night shift. Okay, and I had a girlfriend named Ginger. And she says, "Now, you know why white girls go to college, right?" I was like, "No, to get husbands." I was like, "Really?" I said, "Okay, then we're going to enroll in Penn Valley next semester." - That was Ginger, a white girl? - She said, (laughing) - Okay. - And she said, "Huh?" I said, "Yeah, I'm going to do what you do. I'm going to go get Larry." - Okay. - So she's going to Penn Valley. So I'm going to go to Penn Valley. (laughing) - So she covers you and says, "White girls go to college to get husbands." And you go, "Absolutely. We're going to be enrolling in Penn Valley." - Right. Well, we were having a conversation. And I can't remember somehow the conversation went towards the reason why at that point in time in the 70s. Okay. Why a lot of white girls went to college. Their parents sent them to college to get husbands. - To get their MRS degrading. - Right. - Yeah, to get that ring. (laughing) - And so I was like, "Really?" She's like, "Yeah." I said, "And it works, right?" She said, "Well, yeah." I was like, "Okay." And because AT&T reimbursed us for classes, I said, "But then let's go and enroll in Penn Valley." She said, "Okay, so we both enroll in Penn Valley." She said, "So you coming here to get a husband?" I said, "Hmm, I'm going to get Larry." - And so you knew him already at that time? - 'Cause all three of us were pre AT&T. - Okay, so you knew he was going to school there. - Right, we knew he was going to Penn Valley. - Yeah. - So then that's the reason why I told her, "Oh, we going to Penn Valley." We didn't even enroll in Penn Valley. - So. - And so go get Larry. So how did you strike things up with Larry? How did it turn into dating? - Well, we hung out. It was a gender and we had another friend, Elliot. And we all just hung out together and then things just connected. - Yeah, things just happened. - Things just happened. - And so you guys started dating and then you both worked for AT&T in Kansas City for I'm assuming a number of years, so why? And at what point? How, okay, so this, I'm curious about this. How long into dating were you guys like, maybe we should get married? Maybe we should actually do this. - Oh, you want that story? - Yeah, I do. Even actually you don't want to tell it to me. - No, okay, we did live together, right? Okay, what happened was we had dogs. He bought me a shepherd and he had a shepherd. And they made it. So we had cousins in Dallas and we used to go there a whole lot. So we went to take our dogs to Dallas, one for each cousin. While we were down there, I said, why don't we just get married? And he said, okay. (laughing) - So you're just on a trip and you're like, hey, let's get married. - Yeah, I was like, we live together and everything. Why don't we just go ahead and get married. He said, okay, so we got married in Dallas when we went to delivered dogs. And I told him, I said, but we're not gonna tell anybody that we're married. And he was like, okay, I said, so I'm gonna stay brown, okay? He said, okay, so we go back like everything. So when he did get his job offer, my boss said, well, it would really be nice and easier for us to get you a job if you and Larry were married. I said, well, Larry and I weren't married. She said, I knew it, I knew it. (laughing) I said, no, you didn't. She said, yeah, when you took them dogs down there, you got married, didn't you? That's like, yeah. - Why'd you like a buck, damn. - I was like, yeah, she said, okay. She said, okay, since that, I said, do you want me to bring the marriage license and I'll prove it to you in everything? She says, now I take your word for it, yeah. And so, I said, but don't tell nobody. So she did. So he had left for his job and I was still there. They were still trying to find me a job. So finally, they did find me a job. So the day that they made the announcement, that's when they added Riley to my name. - Riley to your name? - Yeah. - 'Cause his name was Riley. So that's when it became, that's when I became Riley. Other than that, I was just Denise Brown. - Yeah. (laughing) - So then, okay, so you guys get secret married and then you tell the lady at AT&T so you can get the job and then you move out to Jersey. Now, where were we all living in Jersey? - Summer set. - Summer set Jersey. And you said you were going into New York a lot. - Oh, I'll try. - And what were you doing and what were you doing? This is the '70s in New York. - Yeah. - What were we all doing? - Well, what was going on in the '70s in New York? (laughing) - I know you were giving them hell in there, Denise. - Well, one thing I will say that I like about these clothes and I like about New York is the culture. Okay, I mean, the party in is good. Everybody knows that. But there are so many museums. There's so many different cultures. And I'll say starting in March, all the way up to October, every weekend there is a festival for some culture there in New York. - Yeah. - And I don't know how it is now, but it was always free. - Yeah. - And it was like a three day event. And I like that and I always went to those and I love plays from my mother as a child taking me to plays here in Kansas City. So I got to go to Broadway plays and did all the cultural things out there. - Yeah. Was it a, what was that move like for you? I mean, moving from being born and raised in Kansas City to going to New York at that time in your life? 'Cause how old were you at that time? - Well, it's in my early 20s. - Yeah, I mean, just over 21. - Was that crazy? Was that a big change? - Jersey was the big change. We're so, uh-huh. Because, okay, I grew up in the city. Well, Somerset was, to me, was more like the rural area, which it was, and that was an adjustment for me. 'Cause I can remember going home one day and it was a cowl in the middle of the road. And I'm like, okay, what do I do with this cowl in the middle of the road? I said, I guess I got away for it to move, right? And I'm hunking my horn, that cowl looking at me, and I'm like, okay, eventually it moved, you know. Because the area where I was living wasn't highly developed. - Yeah. - And so you had a lot, you had a lot of farmers and people would land there. They just had put a development boom right in the middle of it. - For, was it for the AT&T employees, kind of? Was that the idea or like why was-- - No, I don't, the one thing when I first moved to Jersey, in certain areas, they didn't develop. And then when they did develop, they only developed for that area. Just like behind us, they hunted, behind our property. They didn't develop all of that property. Only developed wherever, whoever had this one of the development, that they put. And then because if you went down the road, it wasn't nothing but country. I mean, there was a sheep farmer, there was a goat farmer, and you had all that going down the road. But then you come into this little cult of sacriote thing, and that was the development of me. So that was different. - Yeah. - You know, because I was used to street lights, and here I am going down roads without street lights. And I had to get used to deer all the time. - What were you thinking about your life at that? - Because I feel like early 20s is a time of like, really, it's a time of possibility, where you're like anything can happen. I'm open, I'm making choices. I'm getting down into the world. Do you remember being 22, 23 in New Jersey, and what you thought your life was gonna be, or did you think, like what did you think about your life at that time? - At that time, basically I was working. And I wanted to enjoy life, and I really, really wanted the East Coast experience, because we both said that our families were older, and at any point we might have to move back to Kansas City. And I didn't want to go through if I were to shoot a cutter. So I did it. And like I said, I did a lot of the plays. How the stuff in there, y'all? What was your favorite, do you remember your favorite play that you saw at that time? Dreamgirls. Dreamgirls. Oh my gosh. Was the original cast. Now, okay, so now I don't know if she was in the original cast, but who am I thinking of? Gosh. No. The one that plays on elementary, I have an elementary, yes, yes, she was part of the original cast. Oh my God. Was she amazing in it? Mine was part of the original cast. And Jennifer Holliday, what's that, what's that, what's that, Jennifer Holliday, yeah, Jennifer Holliday. She's the one that, at the end, just tore the house down, but yeah, yeah, I saw, all the plays that I went to, I went, made sure that they were original cast, because that's all Gregory Hinds and sophisticated ladies, and I went to see cats and what do you think of cats? I'm gonna say it was okay, it's okay. So okay, so you move out there, I'm interested in this thing you were saying about when you're saying, I don't, I, I want to enjoy life and I don't want to think, uh, could a show to what, uh, do you want to make the, the big choices? Is that, I guess there are a lot of young people who, there are a lot of people in that phase of life right now who listen to the show, who are in the early 20s, who are making big choices, who maybe just move to a new place for a new job or whatever. What would you, do you have any advice for them as someone who, who went through that at that time in your life? Experience them as much as you can in the new area that you are, that you are in at this point in time in your life. And you will find new experiences, new friends, new ventures, and really a whole new world will open up to you, if you're open to do things. Yeah, that's really interesting, a whole new world will open up to you if you're just open to it. Yeah. So you were in New York and you were doing that and you were going to shows and you're working for AT&T and then what slide, how long you're, you're there for 11 years, you said, didn't 11 years? What's, what's life like during that time in your personal life? Are you getting new jobs at AT&T or are you staying in the same job, what's your husband up to? Well, we both got promotions while we were there. And we grew up poor, while we were there. Yeah. And ended up getting a divorce, but that was okay. Was it, what, do you want to talk about, what happened there, what the divorce, what inspired the divorce, what was it, was it some big drama, or was it just like, oh, this isn't working out anymore? Yeah. We just, we grew up poor. Yeah. It's one of those things where we totally just grew up poor. His values and our values weren't coincident like they weren't before. They, they, they were going in different directions. What were the directions, what, what changed in the values necessarily? He started, he started snorting coke, and that became more important than I married. Yeah. That can, I mean, that's really, that's a big thing. Yeah. Someone goes on, on a, you know, gets into a new kind of drug, or gets into a new kind of thing, and the other person doesn't want to. I mean, that would definitely affect Americans. That's crazy. So he, he gets into that stuff. And then you're, I assume you're the one who's like, hey, we need to get a divorce. Mm-hm. What's holding that? Yeah. We had conversations, and I think the breaking point was, and this is really interesting. We started arguing. We never really argued. The whole time that we were together. We did not really have arguments, we had disagreements, but we never really like argued, argued. And when we got into those arguments, it's like, okay, this is not going to work. Yeah. You know, but I tried to save it. We went to, was it therapy? We went to therapy. Oh, did you go to my marriage counseling, or was it? We went to my marriage counseling, and I love the guy, because he said, I'm going to tell you now, I don't try to put him back together. If it's not going to work, I'm going to let you know it's not going to work. I was like, okay, cool, but we went to marriage counseling, he didn't want to, but we did. And after going through it, he says, don't think it, the counselor just said, I don't think it's going to work. And I was already doing that. Yeah. I was trying to be a good wife and see if I could save it, but it was like, yeah. And so, at that point, marriage counselor says, hey, I don't, I think you guys should call it quits, and then you do. And so, how far into being in Jersey is that? How many years in Jersey are you at this point? Probably about five, five years, five, five, five, five, five, five and a half years. And then, what happens then? Do you move out on your own in Jersey, because you stay there for a while longer, so you get your own place in Somerset? Uh-uh. No. You are orange New Jersey. Orange, okay. And does the ex-husband stay in Somerset? Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, he did. Yeah. Yeah. He stayed there. Mm-hmm. So, how did you wind up in Orange? Did you have friends over there or anything? Well, I had somebody. They helped me move there. Yeah. Because I had already told them that when I was leaving. But see, the thing about it in Jersey, and it really kind of upset me was in Jersey, they have a law that, if you say, if you stay separated 18 months, it's, you cannot imagine, it's automatic. It's automatic marriage. Okay. And that's what I was trying to do, but he wasn't having it that way. So we ended up having to get attorneys, you know, and he made more money to me. So, of course, you know, I was like, but I got through it. Yeah. I had a lot of support there. Yeah. So then you moved to Orange. Mm-hmm. You're still working for AT&T. Mm-hmm. And then what eventually inspires you or moves you to come back this way? To take care of a cousin that had Alzheimer's. Yeah. So, you moved back here to take care of your cousin. Mm-hmm. And at that point, do you get to, do you stay with the job at AT&T or do you? I've vested out at that point in time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I could have transferred back and they were going to find me a job here, but I just went on and vested out from AT&T. So, what's it like coming back to Kansas City at that point? It was horrible. Really? Yes. Why? Hahaha. I had gotten used to that East Coast life. Yeah. And Kansas City was slow for me. Yeah. I'm used to going out at 12 o'clock at night and everybody's going home and getting in bed. And I was like, it was, I didn't realize it was more of a adjustment for me to move back home than it was for me to leave home. Whoa. That's really interesting. Yeah. Especially because now you've gotten used to it. Because now you're what? You're in your early mid-30s and you come back to Kansas City. Do you still have a bunch of people here, other than family, like are your friends all still here? Yeah. I had friends and people here, which made it nice, yes, but it was really, the mindset here was different, and that was the thing that really threw me off, I was like, oh, okay. Because see, okay, when I came back, I came back with dreadlocks. Dreadlocks were not a big thing here in Kansas City at the time. So I stood out and some people didn't want to associate with me because I had locks. Really? Oh my God. You know, and then other people wanted to put me in another box, and they were like, well, what made you do that? I was like, you know, that's interesting. It fits my lifestyle. And they were like, what? I said, yeah, it fits my lifestyle. What was the, what was the problem with people having dreads? What was the assumption or association? Okay. You just got to understand. You can't sit. How can I put this? You have, at that time, everybody was wearing Jerry curls. Yeah. I'm going back to greasy hair. I mean, everybody was wearing Jerry curls. That was the thing here. And locks was not a thing here, you know. And so therefore, they really wasn't accepting the locks, and they didn't understand the lifestyle, because at that time, I was living a rasta lifestyle. Rasta. Okay. And what does that look like? That's one where you want me to get into that. I do want to know, because I don't know anything about it. Yeah, no, no, no, about rasta period. I mean, I know I've heard things, and I see things in, like, media or whatever. But I don't, if you're asking, like, do I know anything about what your actual experience living a rasta lifestyle in the 70s and 80s? I got a lot to learn, Denise. Okay. Well, it's basically a natural way of living. And at the time when I came back and still now, you don't, I don't eat meat, and a lot of rastas don't eat meat, okay? And You are definitely pro-African in the sense and it's hard for me to explain it to you. But one reason why it was easy for me to get into that lifestyle is because of my arerearing and the way that I look at Rasta and it might be wrong but it's a combination of Christianity and Islam and I grew up in a household with Christianity and Islam. Really? Okay what did that look like? So my mom was warned that was the other is that the vibe? My cousin that came back because my father died and I never knew who my father was. He died when I was a very young child. Okay so my mom is Catholic and my cousin who we lived in the house with was Muslim and I was met with this. We got everything going on in the house. Tell me about that. But see growing up in a house like that it allowed me to accept people that are different from me and differences. It's easy for me to accept differences and not judge people and not try to convert people just accept people for who they are. Yeah because if the vibes are right and the spirit is right it doesn't matter what you believe in. Yeah you can have that good relationship. Yeah I think that's beautiful. You know and I really that's something I always said that I wouldn't have changed anything like that. You know I did use it to my advantage as a mischievous child. Because see my mother a lot of times didn't want my she felt that my cousin was pushing Islam on me which he was. I'm the one that's curious not ask a lot of questions. And so if I knew I wanted to go somewhere and my mom was gonna say no I would get them into a religious argument. And then this and I'd be like I'm the only one in this house and I got to figure out some ways to get things done. And so I would say now but see you know in Sunday school they said this and I knew he was gonna give me a Islamic take on whatever it was. Sometimes it was the same thing. Every once the while things I said okay he agreed with me. But then sometimes I knew I take something where he wouldn't. And my mom like my mom would hear you say now I didn't told you you didn't. And then my mom would and him would get the going back and forth. And I said yo can I go to this party and so on and so I said yeah go get on out of my face. And they're in there. And they're in there fighting while you're off to the party. You are you are misdewies. That is so funny. So I kind of use religion to my advantage. Absolutely. So would you say that Rasta is faith? It is. It is. Okay. And I'm absolutely the Bible. Yeah. So you picked that up on the East Coast. You got into that out there. Yes I did. Yeah. Yes I did. And it was interesting because this guy said you know you're just a commercial rough dog like I don't know what that is but okay. And then we just got to talking about it. And so I really developed the lifestyle because I liked it because like I said I didn't really eat meat and I was really into the natural healing and all of this and not. And so plus I like it right there. Well that always helps. We're dreads was we're dreads a part of it for you. Was that part of the Rasta thing? No I just decided to grow the dreads. Different thing. Yeah that was just different. It was like okay what do I want to do with my hair now? So I just cut my hair off one day and then start to grow and last. Yeah. Interesting. So you come back here and are you are you renting here when you get back here? No I was in a family home. You in a family home. In Midtown, Kansas City or somewhere. On the east side. On the east side. And so it's a little bit of an adjustment coming back. People are going home when you used to go out. Et cetera, et cetera. And what is what do you think is the big difference between life now and because this would have been the early 80s? Late 80s early 90s. What do you think is the biggest difference between life now and life then? Whoa that's a good question. I think. Think on that one. Right now in life then. Okay. Now in general. Right now and this is nationwide. It's hard for people to have housing. Yeah. I mean then it was easy. Apartments were affordable. If you wanted things it was affordable. Really? Yeah. I mean even the housing market was a lot cheaper than it is now. Comparatively still like even with inflation and all that stuff. It felt like you could work if you worked full-time you could afford your housing. You could afford your housing. See that's so crazy to me because I don't I've not known a world like that. I have I don't I've only lived my whole adulthood. It has not felt like that. It's felt like people work full-time and they can't even afford where they live. That's because of inflation. Agreed. Agreed. Well this gets us into it kind of gets us into organizing and stuff in Kansas City. So at what point in coming back do you start to get involved in organizing and things like that? Is it is it during that period of your life or is it later on? I didn't get into organizing when I first came back. Yeah. I didn't. When I first came back I got involved with KKF5. And what was KKF5? Community Radio Station. Yeah. 90.1. Yeah. FM. FM by the way. Yeah. And I did a blue show. Really? I didn't know this about you. Yeah. I have a FCC license or a class FCC license. And don't forget it. And don't forget it. Don't forget. So what you come back here and start doing a blue show. How'd you get into that? My friend was volunteering at KKF5. And so she was like come on over here with me. So I came over there with her. She did she did jazz. And so at the time Tom Davis was the general manager. And KKF5 was really growing at that point in time. And they finally had made it to 100,000 watts. And they had malt. I don't know if you ever listened to it. But they had so many different shows. All types of shows. Yeah. Anything from blues jazz. They had a bunch of Hispanic shows. They had community forms. They even had teenagers that did radio shows. Oh wow. Yeah. Because I trained four of the teenagers that did the radio shows on KKF5. Wow. So you just get involved in that through volunteering. And what are you doing for work at this point in your life? I'm living off of what I had. Yeah. I had accomplished. Because I wasn't working. And I was like I said, I was taking care of my cousin and see he would go with me sometime too. And whatever. And sometimes my mom would be at home. But I was basically it. And then because I became a board member on KKF5 and I was the treasure. Wow. Yeah. So caretaking, volunteering, and then start doing the board member stuff at KKF5. And your blues show. How did you decide who to play? Just whoever you liked at the time? Who were you playing the most do you think? I played a lot of Denise Lassel. I played a lot of old blues like Bobby Blueblan, Coco Taylor. You know, and I was playing. And I did it. It's interesting because I did the show with a young teenager. Wow. And at this time you were in your 30s. So this teenager, this teenager you're working with, they were, were they on air or were they just like helping you? No, they were on air. We did the show together. Oh wow. Nathan was his name. Yeah. We did the show. Because I was Lady D. Lady D. Lady D. Lady D. Oh my gosh. Okay. So where do you know where Nathan is now? Last time he was in Florida. His mother was the secretary there. And so he was always at the radio station. Plus he helped train me a lot because he knew so much from being there a whole lot. And just somehow we ended up doing the show together. Lady D. and Nathan, the blue show. Okay. I can't remember what his name was, but yeah. So how long did you do the blue show on the radio? For about two and a half years. Dang. Heck yeah. Every Wednesday. Every Wednesday. Traffic jam. Traffic jam. And were you hanging around like 18th and Vine going to live music shows here at all during that time or? Yeah. The Grand Emporium which is closed now. That was the spot back in them days. Really? Oh, they brought all kind of acts here. Yeah. What was what was the vibe of Grand Emporium? It was it was live. Yeah. It was live. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, Roger brought a lot of good acts here and all types of music genres came in. Yeah. Who was your favorite act that you saw there? Oh, that's a hard one to say. I'm gonna say half pint. Half pint? He was a reggae artist from Jamaica. You like your reggae? I like reggae. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm eclectic in all areas of my life. That's all music. Only one I'm gonna tell you that I don't like. I haven't been able to get into bluegrass. Really? Oh, you like bluegrass? Yeah. We're gonna have a chat. Okay. Bluegrass, like I'll anytime there's a bluegrass festival or something going on. If I'm free, I'll pop over and listen to someone play the banjo for a while. You don't like that? You're like no. I've tried it. I tried it when I was out east. Yeah. It's like, okay. Maybe that I'm older, I can appreciate it. But back then, oh no, no, no. So, okay. So you don't get involved in. You're working at KKFI. You're not really involved in politics or organizing at the time. No. What kind of brings you into political life or what kind of brings you into organizing? Oh, got me to where I am now. KC tenants. Complaining. Sitting up. Okay. I was sitting up with friends and we were complaining. Okay. I'm like, you know what? Pretty soon. We're not going to even be able to live in the city because I was seeing all the gentrification going on, right? And I'm like, they're gonna be pricing us out of here. Now, where are we going to go to live? That was my thought. And so I said, you know what? We need to start going to the city hall meetings. We need to sit up a group. And we need to do this because we need to put a stop to this. I said, because you know, they're using my tax dollars. And I'm not having anything to say. I have no say on how they're using my tax dollars. Well, I saw these tenants, KC tenants on TV. I remember seeing them when they were doing the homeless thing. I was like, hmm. I mean, I looked at myself. That's pretty nice. Let it go. But then I was at the bus stop and I saw this where if you midtown tenant union was doing their teachings about gentrification, so I said, I'll go. So I went to the one at the library and rest his history. I've been with KK. I mean, I've been with KC tenants every since because it was like, okay, this is what I'm looking for. Because when I went in there, they were going against Matt. Okay. Mac wanted to get that $10 million, $10.3 million and they stopped Mac from getting that. I'm like, I don't like these people. Hmm. They down there in the city hall, raising a hill. Okay. I want to be a part of this. Okay. But they were speaking up and they were wanting to hold city hall accountable for our money. And we should have some say so in our money. So, yeah. That's what got me involved with KC tenants. So you got involved with the KC tenants? So we've had Tara on the show before to talk about tenant organizing from her perspective. What? Maybe there's a people listening to the episode right now. This episode is coming out on the day of the benefit show that we're doing in Kansas City for the tenant unit come out Thursday. Maybe there's people listening who don't care about tenant organizing or don't know about tenant organizing. What would you say to somebody who doesn't know about tenant organizing about why it's important and why it's the thing that you've put so much of your wife's energy into? And organizing is very, very important because of the fact that majority of the people are tenants in the city. And at this point in time, if you are working class or poor, it is hard for you to afford housing. Anywhere. Yes. Anywhere in the United States. And so therefore, we need to organize so that we can and get affordable housing. Because at this point in time, outside developers are coming in. And what they're doing is building luxury apartments. Which means that the average job low cannot afford. And they're starting at $1,200 for a one-bedroom apartment. It's madness. People can't afford it. It's crazy. Even in a city like Kansas City, which for the longest time was a place that people thought like, "Oh, that's affordable. I can move over there and I can afford to live." But now even places like here are becoming completely inaccessible to people, to working people. What is the, you have been so involved in KC tenants, I'm so moved and inspired by your activism and your work with the tenant union and how much you do for this city and for the tenant union. And I'm wondering what, what is the most powerful feeling that you've experienced during your time in the tenant union? Oh. I know it's hard to pick. There's so many of them. I guess with me, the most powerful one was when we went to city hall for the $1,200 affordable rent for the city. That was the most powerful time because we showed up in numbers. We did not win, but it was so powerful. One of our conrads got arrested and it made me feel empowering and it was like, "Yes, yes." And we shut city hall down a few times. One thing I noticed when we go there, it's kind of like we put a little bit of fear in them because it's like, "Okay, what are they going to do now?" We do put fear in them when we go down there to show up, to hold them accountable. Yeah, I think sometimes the losses can be even more galvanizing than the wins because it's like you really get people pissed off and we should all be pissed off. People who care about working people in this country should be pissed off. And sometimes those losses get people even more involved than they would have been had you won because it gets people to where they should be, which is angry and paying attention. What do you think of, I know that you had some experience with New York Times reporter asking about like, "Oh, what are the older folks in the Tenant Union make of pronouns and this kind of stuff?" I feel like there are always people here about the organizing of the Tenant Union. They hear that we've organized mega, Republican, Trump people, and we've organized younger people and older people. The Tenant Union has really brought such a diverse coalition of people together to fight for this issue. And I think a lot of outsiders first instinct is to poke holes and go, "Well, that can't work. If that worked, we'd already be doing it," or whatever. What do you think is the secret to KC Tenant's and the Tenant Union in general working with so many different types of people? How does it work? We don't judge people. We accept people. Or who they are. And we embrace everyone that comes into KC Tenant's. Even someone who votes differently than you. Or somebody who has different pronouns or somebody who, whatever, and you find that easy. Yeah. And even if they don't use pronouns, it's okay. That reporter really tried it with you. There was a reporter that came. You want to tell this story? I'm gonna let you tell this. One of my most favorite iconic Denise moments there were many to choose from. The reporter came and was like, "Was asking you what about, what did you want to ask about the pronouns and how that worked and if you were upset about people using pronouns in the Tenant Union?" And you were saying that, "Did you try she day for a second? Did you consider it?" No. I was using Day Damn or something like that. I was using Day Damn and somebody was like, "So you are Day Damn?" I said, "Yeah. Is that a problem?" I didn't take you for that. I was like, "Okay, I don't understand what you mean." But I heard funky Dianneva explain pronouns. I said, "Oh, now I understand what they were saying." So I immediately changed mine to she heard. Yeah. I said, "Because I might be missing out on something here but don't do that because then they don't. " I'm like, "Oh, they're gonna think that I don't like me and oh no, no, no, no, no." They thought there were people thinking that because you had a vague in the mix that you were maybe were a lesbian. Which is not the same thing but it was confusing to people. Right. It was confusing to them and I was like, "Oh no, I don't want this confusing. I'm a she/her or I don't hand it because I'm addicted to dick, okay?" Recognize. I'm obsessed. I think the thing that you're saying about accepting everybody, I think what it means to me is that in organizing in this way, in organizing tenants specifically, is that we have a very singular goal in mind. It's fair, affordable, safe housing for everybody. And when we say that, we mean everybody. Whether you vote like us, whether you talk like us, whether you look or think or pray like us, whatever that means, the us that we're talking about is such an amalgamation of different types of people that there really is no in-group or outgroup. The in-group is, do you think that everyone deserves safe, affordable, fair housing? And the out-group is, do you think that that's not true and it's okay to export your neighbors? That's the in-group outgroup. Everything else is immaterial to that. And so, to us, what that means, people who organize with the tenant union and allies, I'm not nearly as much of an organizer and presence as you or Tara or any of the leaders in the union, I just come around and help out when I can. But what that means to us who believe in this mission and are trying to help with this work or do this work, is that, well, a lot of that stuff is kind of not our business. We're worried about your housing and we're worried about you being treated fairly by your landlord. Does that feel true? Yes, 100% true. Yeah. I think it's, I'm really grateful to the tenant union because it has really clarified and centered my political activism. I feel like I hadn't had political hope in years. I hadn't had political hope since when I was like, you know, 11, 12 years old and Obamagot elected the first time. That was probably the last time I felt like genuine political, well, Bernie's campaigns, but then the DNC screwed him. They did everything they could to destroy that man's campaigns, which is horrible because I think he would have won in our country, be in a totally different place right now. But genuine, pure political hope I hadn't had so long and I get that from the tenant union that I feel like, oh, this is so clarifying to me that Tara says all the time, like, you get to wake up every day and decide who's team you're on. Choose what sides you're on. And I like being on the side of the tenant union. Oh, that best team to be on. Let's see, also another thing that we look at too with our tenant unions is not only a place where everybody to live, but a safe place because right now we're dealing with a lot of landlords that are slumlords. And they are not keeping the buildings up. But yet, they're getting our tax dollars. Yeah. Okay. And there's infestation of welches, rats, sillings are falling down, there's mold in the buildings, plumbings messed up. And I can go on and on, naming all the problems that tenants are having in these apartments. And tomorrow, we're launching a tenant strike at bowling towers in Raytown, Missouri. And it's because of these conditions. And the landlord does not want to come to the bargaining table with us, do not want to fix what's done. And so the best way that you can get anybody to hit them in their pocket. And so these people think they're untouchable. They think they are. They think that they don't have to listen to, especially because it is, it's classist, it's ages, it's racist. A lot of these people, the specific reason that they think that they don't have to engage with their tenants is because their tenants are often almost always low income people, first and foremost, but then also often senior citizens, but then also often immigrants, but then also often people of color. And so these rich companies that take money from the government to subsidize their housing projects, our money that we have given to the government to participate in a society, they take that money, it's given to them to run these buildings, then they don't run the buildings and pocket the money. It is so beyond fucked up and evil what they're doing. And then when the tenants say, hey, things are so bad that we've unionized, we need to talk to you. For the owner, and the landlord or whatever the title may be for them to not come to the table is unacceptable. Yes. So the tenant strike by the time this episode comes out that you're talking about in Raytown will be launched. The tenant strike will have happened and a tenant strike for people who don't know is a rent strike is when renters withhold rent in order to force the owner of their building or the landlord or the property manager, whatever you know the titles are, to negotiate with them about unsafe and unfair living conditions. And so that's what we'll be in the middle of and in Raytown by the time this comes out. Yes, that is so true. Yeah. Speaking of so true, Denise, what is so true to you? Do you have a so true? Yeah, your podcast. My podcast is so true to you. I do love your podcast. Thank you. What is so true? Oh, I'm going to tell you what's so true to me. Okay. Is older people having a friendship and a good relationship with younger people and younger people having friendships and good relationships with older people. And that's kind of where I am in my life because it seems like a lot of my friendships and relationships are with people that are younger than me. And they are really good. And we learn from each other and we grow from each other. Because to me, there is no age limit on where you can get help from. So actually if it's technology, I'm going to go to somebody younger. I'm a dummy when it comes to acknowledge. But yeah, because I was interesting. It was a scroll. She's probably in her 30s. I'll say early 30s. And she hung out with me and somebody else that is older like in her 50s. And after the experience with us, she says, "Oh, you give me, you give me a different perspective on old people." I was like, "Okay, well, what was your perspective on old people before you hung out with us?" A java dull, boring, and just angry with life. I was like, "Oh, that must have been people you hung. You used to hang in around with or know. Oh, no, no, no, no. We're with a life. We enjoy life and we're not angry about nothing." Yeah. I completely agree. I think it's so important and special. And you do have so many, I mean, everybody knows Denise. You got so many friends, so many different kinds of people around you. I'm very, I think the, there is though a problem. I think many younger people would be interested in having intergenerational friendships and maybe many older folks would as well, but no one seems to know the place to make it happen. I think the tenant union is a great place to make it happen. How is this going to say? I said, "Can you tell me to make it happen?" Yeah. And we're lucky. We have a great tenant union here. Yes. So many people, when we had tar on, so many people commented and we're like, "I wish I had this in my city. I wish I had this in my town." And I'm like, well, the unfortunate way for me, someone had already started one in my city, so I got to just kind of come over and hang out and get to know the work. But if you don't have one, you have to start one. Well, what I'm going to say on that is, "We'll probably be coming to your town soon, so look out for us." Yeah. That's what I'm going to say on that. Yeah. Yes. Well, you're talking about intergenerational friendships and I asked you a little bit earlier, like advice you would give to people in their 20s about moving to a new place or something. But I feel like you're a happy, active person who has a full life. What do you think is the. I don't want to say secret because secret never feels like the right word, but what do you think is the key to living a happy life or a good life? I guess my secret is, well, I always try to stay in peace. I meditate. And I do not hold a lot, I do not hold a lot of negativity. I try hard not negativity out, okay? And with that, you can't help but be happy because negativity is what brings you down. But positivity is going to bring you up and it's going to make you happy. And then you've got to love yourself. Yeah. Have you always loved yourself? Always have. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much to I'm arrogant to some people. Somebody said, "You're just arrogant." No, I said, "I just love myself." Yeah. It was easy for you. It just came natural. No, I'm going to tell you what made me do this. Okay. In Sunday school when I was a kid, I had a Sunday school teacher said something. Somebody had said something and they were putting themselves down. She said, "Remember this." I said, "Oh, God don't make junk and He made you." And from that point on, it was like, "Okay, okay, okay, I got that." God don't make junk, He made you. You don't make junk and He made you. So therefore it was like, okay, so therefore you can't help but put yourself up here. You can't put yourself down here if you believe that. Since you don't make young, then I don't know. And part of it, probably my family instilled stuff into believing in yourself because if you don't believe in yourself, nobody else will. And I didn't really grow up around a lot of negativity to be honest. I grew up in a very peaceful house. I really, really did. There was not a lot of arguments and stuff like that and everything was peaceful in my house. And that's kind of high level. I can't, a whole lot of foolishness in my hand, I can't deal with that in a home. That shows, it makes sense. You have a very calming presence about you. It makes sense that, I mean, plenty of people come to a calming presence and they had to do a lot of work or whatever, but that doesn't surprise me at all. You have a very, you have a very calming energy about you. I feel very calm when I'm talking to you and hanging out with you. Yeah, you have one too. Thank you. I try. I want to, my favorite thing that you and I got to be a part of, that the Tinney Union has done is we made a video, you and I, for the stadium, that the chiefs and the royals, who we love, the team, we love the teams, they were trying to get a downtown stadium built. They wanted the taxpayers to pay for it. They wanted to displace a bunch of our neighbors to do it. It makes no sense. They've got perfectly good stadiums right now. And their whole threat to the voters was, if you don't give us all this money and let us do this, we're going to leave. And we beat them. The Kansas City tenants organized and beat them and got this thing voted down. And I just, like, that is the most inspiring thing politically. I think I've been involved in, in my adult life. I just thought that was so. I honest to God and I know this probably sounds bad, but when we were fighting that fight and when we were telling everyone about it and making our video and working on that, I kind of in the back of my head was like, we got a big fight. I don't know. I try not to ever sit in that place mentally because that's counterproductive to good organizing. But in the back of my head, I was like, this is a pretty improbable fight that we're having and I'm so glad that we're having it. But I was shocked that we wanted to be honest. Oh, then you must learn this. I'm saying we have. We always say this. We will win. I believe we will win. And that's really our mindset whenever we go into something. Not saying we don't win everything, but that is our mindset. When we go into any campaign or anything that we got any direct action, we go in with a winning attitude. And we go in, and we act, and we do everything from a winning perspective. And then too, we just come together because there are so many brains and knowledge in case he tends to just come together. And we can go here, go there and bring the things together and make it work. Because on that, I like to slogan. And I think that's the catch phrase was billionaires are trying to bully us because basically that's what they were doing. And then people like, yeah, they're more billionaires. They are bullying the taxpayers. You're somebody who has a lot of, I feel like hope and a lot of belief. And the thing that I hear so much from people right now, my peers, my friends, people in the responses to this show or whatever, people feel really hopeless right now. I think people are struggling to feel political hope, to feel hope in the future, to feel hope in the, you know, the idea that things are going to get better. What gives you hope and what would you say to someone who's struggling with having hope right now? Well, only thing I can say is organizing changes things, it brings hope, and it also brings prosperity. Because if you really look at this country, every big movement or every, every change that has been made has been made by the little people, grassroots people. So get involved in something organization that is in your self interest. But I would like for you to get involved with KC tenants, but if KC tenants is not in your self interest, there are other organizations that can bring you hope in this city. It depends on what, if you're with climate, there's organizations that deal with the climate, there's political organizations, there's a lot of organizations, and if you need help in finding one, just contact me at KC right now, you know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, you do. Okay, well, now it's your turn, Denise. Forget about all those people. It's the Denise show now. I'm going to read you 15 statements. You're going to tell me as quickly as you can if you think what I just said is true or false. And if you get 10 or more correct, we're going to give you 50 US dollars, big, big prize for this game show. Are you ready? Okay. The Kansas City Chiefs were originally called the Dallas Texans. Dallas. No. That's true. I know they were. And I know that. I said no. J was the last letter to be added to the alphabet. No. True. Lightning can't strike the same place twice. Yes, it can. Yes. So it's false. It can. Clouds are weightless. False. False. They can weigh over a million pounds. Oh, I'm done. Richard. No. Richard Nixon was the 37th president of the United States. He could have been. Yeah, true. True. Kansas City, Kansas is older than Kansas City, Missouri. True. False. karaoke means empty orchestra in Japanese. Oh, no, damn. I'm going to say true. True. The King of Hearts is the only King card with King card without a mustache. False. It's true. The first product to have a bar code was Dr. Pepper. Oh, nobody. True. False. It was wriggly gum. No. There are two credit cards for every person in the United States. I don't know about that one now. Two credit cards. Oh, that's true. That is true. The pancreas produces white blood cells. True. False insulin. No, insulin. When you die, your hair still grows for a couple of months. True. It's true. Bats are the only members that can actually fly. True. That is true. There are 10 gates, barbecued locations, in the KC metro area. That's false. Okay. It does say false, but then it says 10. So chance mess this question up. So he's getting in trouble. But I believe you that it's false. Snakes are the deadliest animals in the world. True. False. It's mosquitoes. Oh, mosquitoes. You got eight. Oh, you got eight. That's really good. Honestly. No, no, no, Denise. You get paid regardless. Just so you know, just so you know. Is there anything else that we didn't get too that you wanted to tell people any message you want to leave people with on your social episode? This is going to be after the day of the show. Okay. So everyone come down to heat. The uptown. Everyone come to the uptown theater, 38th and Broadway. What a hell with extra gas. Yeah. Trust me. You don't want to miss it. It's one of that best. He knows you wherever go to. Lady D. Lady D. Back on the mic. Thank you so much for being here Denise. We love you. Thanks for having me. Appreciate you. That was a hit down podcast.