Conflict as Opportunity: An Introduction to The Colossian Forum

Welcome to the Colossian Forum podcast. My name is Tanner Smith. I'm the chief of staff at the Colossian Forum and we're so glad that you're here Throughout history Christians have committed themselves to a way of life or a rule of life often these rules of life were created as an effort to remain faithful to Christ in the midst of really challenging times a Rule of life is simply a commitment to live your life in a certain way with some goal in mind To live on purpose so that you can become the kind of person you long to become and stay that person even when things get hard The goal of the Colossian Forum is to invite Christians to embrace a way of being a way of life in the midst of these Challenging times that we're currently experiencing We long to see Christians think pray and act like Christ in the midst of our deepest disagreements We do this by helping Christians imagine a hopeful future where difference doesn't have to mean despair We not only paint a picture of what could be but we offer concrete practices to help live it out That is the essence of a rule of life a vision of where you want to go and practices to help you get there Today I'm joined by two Colossian Forum staff members Jess Shultz Chief Partnerships Officer and Ashley Island our VP of Partnerships. Welcome to both you Thanks, Deanna glad to be here They're here to help us go a bit deeper into the theology and practices that are foundational to the Colossian forums reconciling work So let's get started. I want to start by talking to both you about stories We all tell ourselves stories about all kinds of things. We certainly tell ourselves stories about conflict Because we all have stories about conflict What are some of the stories or some of the messages about conflict that you've taken in Over the years maybe even stories that you didn't realize you'd taken in in the moment It's a really good question and I think When I meditate on the stories and the narratives that I learned about conflict I start all the way back in childhood and I'm sure for some of our listeners There might also be thinking of the ways in which they learned about conflict growing up Mm-hmm I can distinctly remember They're being conflict within our family system and being told hey, we don't talk about this Outside of these walls so it was contained it was secret It wasn't for anyone else and it felt like there was a lid a very tight lid On conflict and you had to deal with it internally by yourself and so I learned to avoid conflict So that I wouldn't have to hold the weight and the burden of what it meant to carry that conflict out so it was either a void or in times where Conflict felt like hey, I need to protect myself somehow Even on the playground on the old school concrete playground where there was no soft padding for us to land coming off the swings I mean we have the softest padding on playgrounds today I Learned hey, you've got to stand up for yourself So move toward it, but but do it in a way that maybe doesn't take the other person's feelings into consideration And so I either learn to avoid or to be abrasive and And those were some of the messages I learned about conflict growing up Yeah, I think I also recognize that my personality and particularly As a child my personality was such that I wanted to be in the background. I didn't want to stand out I wanted to keep the peace and so I remember the first time I heard my parents arguing and I literally thought it was the end of their relationship And so my mom found me crying in my bedroom And I had created the story in my head about my future Without my parents because I heard them arguing about something and so I think that was one of the first memories I have of Recognizing that I had gone a long way in telling myself a story of what happens when there is conflict And my mom having to reframe that and say Actually, this means we're doing the healthy work of relationship and we love one another in the midst of this in all of that I also think though About the relationships I had like with my siblings and we would have conflict I grew up in a house full of girls and We'd have conflict and so on would intervene and we didn't have a way to Negotiate that conflict. It was just hug and pretend you love each other It wasn't actually talk about what happened or find a new way to navigate how you're playing that game It was just kind of like hey create a resolution That at least appears to be a resolution So kind of short circadian the process that happens in the midst of that And then I also just think about like you talked about playground Dynamics and I think I learned early on that if there were times that if I took a posture of avoiding the conflict somebody else would take care of it And so early on sometimes that was like one of my sisters intervening and she took care of the conflict and I just got to be the peaceful person on the sideline And so if people were mad about how she handled it they could be mad at her and not me So that was a different way for me to avoid conflict I heard you both talking in different ways just you said it released succinctly short circeding the process That conflict is actually not just an event But a process that has to work through I heard you talk actually about Avoidance running away from it or you said abrasive. I like that or being abrasive or being combative And then I heard you just sort of say like finding ways to manage it and also the stories that we tell about it being a scary thing being a bad thing being the end of something But what I hear both you saying now is that it's actually a key part of relationships And so could you tell me more about How the collusion forum approaches conflict and how that might be different than some of those stories you inherited over the past yeah sure I love that the collusion forum approaches conflict as opportunity Because to me that says that whatever the circumstances there is a way through To a more desirable end and as you said Tanner the end is to be more like Christ and so if conflict is an opportunity in a vehicle through which we can approach Christ christ likeness in our own formation I think that's 180 for me And so there's some tenants of the collusion way That I'm sure we can dive into later, but one of those components is this invitation to get curious I never used to associate curiosity with conflict to me conflict used to be It get your opinion out there as quickly as you can in a way that is persuasive and that convinces someone else that you are right and Then do get out from there and then go home um But with the collusion form I love that we are invited to listen well to ask questions of ourselves and Someone else in a compassionate way and for me that has been a way to Slow down to really consider who I am as I'm showing up to conflict with someone else and how Through that process I might become more like Christ and can see the other person as someone who is worthy of their Inherent value and the way that God sees them with they are beloved So for me, it's just been a really radical shift in how I've approached conflict Since becoming acquainted with our work When when we say the phrase conflict as opportunity It surfaces for me that part of the resistance that many of us have towards engaging in conflict is In connection to the pain or the hurt or the despair or the hopelessness that we've experienced and I think it's really important when we reframe it and say conflict is opportunity that we're not saying we have some easy painless quick fix away to approach conflict instead what we're saying is that It's through the fires of conflict that we're transformed and we we have some practices that we think can transform our experience on our way way through and That discipleship actually happens in that fire of conflict that something productive is happening in us Even though it's hard So I think it's really important to not just paint this rosy picture that we're saying we have some different way to live in in the world That is easy and is a quick fix And so as we talk about conflict as opportunity we talk about it as being an opportunity for discipleship and for witness So both it's actually testing our discipleship part of what we're all experiencing in the world that we live today is A failure of discipleship in some of the ways that we've done it And when we're pressed in the midst of conflict What spills over is not Christlike And so I think that points towards that we have to do that formation work ahead of time Not just expect ourselves to show up as Christ would in the midst of conflict And then we talk about witness Really emphasizing that What the world sees can be so harmful when we don't navigate conflict as Christ would. And that part of the resistance we see from people walking away from faith, walking away from Christian institutions, is because of what they've witnessed around conflict. - So much of what, I mean, what you both just said is a reframing or reimagining of, not just conflict but of relationships, in some profound way, because it's not just actually what you're talking about, the idea of like doing conflict to win, so that I can feel right, or so I can be right, or so I can get what I want, and what you're talking about is a different way of navigating relationships, which are gonna inevitably have conflict, that are part of it. I know that we talk about, we have a North Star, because the first thing we have to do is think differently about the world and the people in it, and God who made it, we have to think differently, and be shaped by something other than what, the messages that we're given all the time, about enemies and about being right, and all that kind of stuff. So we talk about our North Star being love of God and love of neighbor, which is Jesus's North Star, he says everything hangs on these two things, all the law and the prophets on loving God, and the way you love God is by loving your neighbors, and then he goes on to say, which includes people you might perceive as your enemies, and then we also talk about the test for that, whether or not you're actually living towards that, is how much the fruit of the Spirit is showing up in your life, the fruit of the Spirit being love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faith, and this self-control, and our thinking is, as we orient towards the love of God and love of neighbor, including our enemies, and we see the Holy Spirit growing these things in our lives, we actually become more like Christ. That's maybe a definition of discipleship as we would talk about it. And then, as you said, witness, people actually see us acting that way, and they think maybe they would want that too. Is that sound right? - Yeah, and I think that it's saying there's a different way that's possible to act in the midst of conflict. Like the whole reason we need the North Star is, because as we're facing conflict, all of our body's natural reactions are getting activated. So the impact of anxiety, the impact of feeling threat. And so there's ways that God has wired us to keep ourselves safe, that keep us safe if a bear's chasing us, or if we're gonna get hit by a car, it's the fight or flight responses. But so much of what happens in our lives today is that we have those flight responses in a Christian community or in relationship that our bodies and the whole of who we are are reacting as if our life is at threat. And yet it's not. (laughs) And so we need the North Star to orient us, to point us back to be able to live out the fruit of the spirit instead of avoiding or defending or manipulating. - I also think there's an aspect of the North Star that's inherently counter-cultural because so much of our culture is taught us, at least our Western American culture has taught us to love yourself above all else and to hate your enemy. For others to see us doing this work of love of God, love of neighbor, it's going to look different from love of self-hate of neighbor. And so that is attractive in and of itself. Like why is that working? What is it about that approach that seems to be more transformative than my own propensity to self-protect, to kind of go inward, to see this alternative reality where we're asked to do something different than when our culture shows us. I think it's magnetic in and of itself. So I do think it's an amazing witness because it's something different in alternative way than what most people are used to seeing, particularly in headlines and media. And all the other environments where we're seeing this combative behavior, leading to this desire to win. - Yeah, it's attractive. So you both have to have had experiences, relationships, where I felt like the North Star was in place. You're with people who love God and love you and it's different. And maybe you've experienced things like joy and peace. Certain people just have that way of being. Would you share an example of a relationship that's been like that? What was that like? - Sure. So years ago, I was a high school youth pastor at a church in Chicago land. And one of my volunteers was probably, like the gold star of volunteers within the ministry. This person was well known, was well liked, really outgoing, well respected. We had seen much fruit come out of her ministry there in her work with high school students. And we became friends. And when I tell you that this person and I could not be more different, I mean, we grew up differently. We came from different parts of the country, different socioeconomic backgrounds. Racially, there was difference. She came from a family that was really steadfast in their business opportunities and building kind of this business empire and she was inheriting that. And I just remember after Trump was elected, I reached out to her because I knew how she felt about her politics. And I think we, safe to say, we would approach politics a little bit differently from a different purview. And I just said, "Hey, can we have a conversation?" I wanna know how this was like, what this was like for you. And whereas I was really seeing a lot of people kind of avoid their friends and family kind of after that election, I was seeing people rage and have no interest in having conversation, I really felt like I could have a conversation with my friend about how this specific political cycle was impacting her. And I remember she came to my office, she sat down and she was wearing her victory shoes. I mean, she had this pair of thoms that had the Republican elephant on them. I mean, she was just gloating, like just so happy. And I said, "Hey, can I be honest with you about some of my fears around this, what this means for our country? And can you help me understand your perspective?" She was the only person that I felt like I was able to engage in that way because I knew what preceded our political leanings was our love for one another. Was the hours long drives that we would take from Chicago land to Marion, Indiana for camps where we would talk about all things, our experiences with race and why we see the world a certain way. So there was a foundation of love that had been laid before we even got to politics and that foundation made it safe for me to ask hard questions and potentially invasive questions, questions that perhaps no one else would even want to answer. There was a level of vulnerability. I remember us both crying by the end of that conversation in my office because we felt a deep tenderness for one another and we were for one another, even beyond a four-year cycle. And so to this day, she's one of my closest friends. We talk often and again, our lives could not look more different just in the ways that we have chosen to live them, but because I know her commitment to Christ and I've seen the fruit of her life in the lives of students and I know that she loves people and loves them well. I felt like that history that we had was so important to when the heat was turned up for a potentially divisive topic and our love was what kept us. And I know that I could go to her in the future when things are hard and find the same, that same kind of safety, even though it's not easy as you were saying just, it doesn't make it easier comfortable. But I do feel like our relationship is anchored in love and that's what matters when it comes down to navigating divisive topics. So well said and it highlights to me a concern that I have about our current moment. We talk about polarization. I'm more concerned, more than polarization, I'm concerned about the fact we don't know each other. We're not spending time together. The institutions that bring us together and help us to build that foundation are kind of feel like they're crumbling. We don't spend a lot of time with our neighbors. We're increasingly spending time in bubbles that tell us what we already think, but we don't actually know those people. There's just feels to me. I might not be done on any data to back this up. It feels like we know people who are different us less than we did in the past. Does that feel true? - Well, I think what Ashley was saying in your highlighting is the importance of this unfolding in relationship and conversation and we talk about assuming positive intent and loving people and recognizing they're made in the image of God just as we are. And that's such a different way to approach conversations and difference. And it doesn't lessen the intensity of how different those differences are. And it's not saying we're saying the way forward is you must give up the thing that you feel strongly about. But instead we're saying we can hold a whole lot more together than we might imagine. Some of the stories and the people that come to my mind are those who felt or have felt very differently about my call to be a pastor. And so I grew up in a context where women couldn't serve in a lot of places and churches and just never had an imagination for that and really have my own experience of needing to be curious in the presence of God about like what are you up to in this God and what does it look like for me to serve you faithfully. But as I entered church context and tried to live out my calling not everyone was excited about that. And I think of the variety of ways that I experienced that some you know someone disagreeing with my story or my call stomping out of a church meeting that's one way to handle conflict. But others inviting me to lunch, inviting me to have a cup of coffee. And for them to experience that I didn't feel like I needed to take a posture to defend my calling. I just wanted to tell my story which includes my own resistance to that call. Like God if I could do anything else please send me in that direction. And so for them to hear that it wasn't some pursuit I was after some statement I was trying to make but it was just me trying to be faithful to what God was doing in my life. And those conversations didn't always mean at the end of the conversation at the end of lunch that we all of a sudden agreed or were in the same place. But we loved one another because I could ask curious questions they could tell their story and often those kinds of relationships unfolded over time. And we found ways to love the church that we were called to be part of to find out the ways the spirit was at work and how we could join the spirit in that work without having perfect unity or the same belief about that particular belief. And over time the witness of what that could show the rest of the congregation that if we could hold relationship in that space to be imaginative about where else we could hold it really provided a lot of opportunity. That requires such courage and humility. The back to the stories that we tell ourselves I tell myself stories about people who think differently or act differently or operate differently than me. And usually those stories are that they are bad or that they have some sort of bad intent or they're ignorant or whatever sort of and yet when you invite somebody to go to coffee or have lunch or you know talk to you about politics in a very divisive election or anything it just requires this courage because it does make it does make you vulnerable. You feel exposed to you feel I had a friend who was saying he's an African-American man and he was saying that he often does not want to talk to his friends about race because he's afraid that they will not believe him or not think it's though deny his experience. And then he'll say I would rather so he'd rather have the relationship than know that he was wrong about somebody so he wants to avoid having those conversations and I I resonate with that in so many areas right? You don't want to know. So talk about talk about we talk about these as postures humility and courage we have several others but can you talk a little bit about posture and what we mean by that? Yeah I mean I think at the very basic level of that it's a having a posture towards everyone as being created in the image of God and so it shifts our understanding of difference and how we can can see that difference to recognizing that the body of Christ needs all different parts different gifts different values that people bring. It also shifts how we view our differences and respond to them in the sense of we need to test if we are using another person as an object and I don't think any of us I hope none of us would wake up some day and say this is how I'm going to treat another human being but we're trying to preserve ourselves we're trying to keep ourselves safe and so there are certainly times where in the midst of our difference somebody is standing in our way of something we want to accomplish or someone is threatening our way forward in something and so we treat them as an object and start manipulating or we start disregarding and and so figuring out a way to raise those red flags and invite others in our life to is kind of the the start of even just shifting our posture towards something where we can live out the virtues and the practices. One of those virtues is humility and when I think of humility there's a specific text in the Old Testament where Abigail Nabal's wife in first Samuel 25 is sent to kind of intervene before David and so we won't talk about the whole story here but essentially there is imminent destruction kind of planned and Abigail is sent and she really extends hospitality and how she shows up before David and so the text says that she shows up before him she she gets off of her donkey and then she bows down and it's this really powerful image for me of what it's like to have a posture of humility in the midst of conflict she's literally put herself between David and her people and she's done so with a spirit of not just hospitality bring all these gifts and all this food for him but she bows down in self-giving surrender to say hey before we even have a conversation I want you to see I'm willing wow I honor you and there's so much about that posture of humility that I feel like is necessary as we enter into these conversations and insert ourselves are we inserting ourselves as the combatant as saying no I'm going to keep you away or my my job my role in the midst of this is to fight you or is there another perspective where we can say I'm coming in the midst of this conflict to honor you to respect your God-given value and inherent worth to bring my gifts of hospitality or whatever they might be for the sake of this conversation for the sake of seeing away through this differently so there's there's so much in the way of posture that we can learn not just from the text but from each other as we learn this upside down way of how to posture ourselves in the midst of conflict I think of the story of Jesus washing the disciples feet and so often when we're posturing ourselves in unhelpful ways we we do so because we think we're protecting some truth or defending something for the sake of God and here is Jesus knowing the person has already betrayed him washing his feet and in knowing the kind of sacrifice that was ahead of him and yet what is the posture that Jesus takes it's to wash their feet which is so upside down that is not the posture that that leaders often take that's not what gets celebrated in our culture that's not the way to win and to to live of life of privilege and power but over and over again I mean we could probably spend hours talking about different scripture narratives that again it would be showing humility. Part two episode two. Job security but it reminds me of all the ways that the New Testament writers especially Paul talks about Christ and Christ's sort of presenting characteristic the one that you noticed the most was the humility and also authority so there's so it's not as though he was humble and he became you know something for people to walk on because he did have strong convictions about a lot of things and showed those and those convictions got him killed I mean you know you don't murder somebody who's a doormat right it was talking to me a little bit about that humility conviction How do those things work together? - Yeah, well, I mean, I think as you name that sometimes humility gets expressed really more as indifference or getting out of the game or just we don't have the energy to care, that's not what we're talking about the posture. And so I think when we talk about humility, we have to recognize kind of those ditches on the other side of indifference or rigidity. But I also think of the way that Jesus was able to hold grace and truth in tension or we talk about conviction and compassion. And that really we see that unfold display as the woman was brought to Jesus who was caught in adultery. And we see Jesus navigating that context where the religious leaders of the day are trying to trap Jesus. And we're trying to take his life. And Jesus both by his physical posture and by his words, resists that. And so I don't know that until more recently, I had thought about the physical posture where when being confronted and trying to get him to defend his convictions, Jesus bends down. He lowers the anxiety. He turns the heat down. He physically places his body between those who want to stone the woman and the woman. And so he's physically using his body to keep her safe. Like Abigail, it's sort of my problem. Yeah, it is. And all of that is happening without him saying a single thing. Yeah. And so, and he also shifts the power there from those who had had the power to accuse those who thought it was their right to convict each other, even to the point of death, to kind of hold that mirror up and to say the one without sin, you can cast the first stone. And so, shifted it from one person being wrong, one person being a sinner to us all, being sinners. And yet, as he extends compassion to the woman, after he has seen her, after he has given her value, he says, go and sit no more. And I can't help but wonder how much more possible that that was for her, because someone saw her. Someone kept her safe. Someone said, I will not allow you to be the pawn in this game of what is happening. And that it wasn't, as Jesus said, go and sit no more, there could be an imagination of a life lived differently. One, where love of God and love of neighbor was possible. And so, I certainly grew up in religious spaces where we could either hold conviction high or compassion high. And that I didn't see very many examples where that was held in tension, where the goal was to practice both. And so, that's part of what I love about the work of the caution forum as we try and think and act and leave, like Jesus in the midst of this. To speak, really practically, I'm sure we have some listeners who are wondering, my posture is one thing. What about my actual words? How do I communicate my conviction? How does that, what does I have to do with humility? I want to remind us that our convictions don't come from nowhere. They're all wrapped up in part of the story that God has woven in the midst of our lives. And so, I wonder if, and this is, I don't think this is officially stated anywhere in any of our material, but I think there's something about conviction that's to be celebrated, because our convictions could be a reflection of our ownemago day, the way that we were created in the image and likeness of God. And so, how do we see conviction as an opportunity to celebrate our unique part of the body that we were created to bring to the rest of the world? And then, when you pair that with compassion, I think the root of the word "passion" is "pastio." So, it's really suffering when we talk about the passion of Christ. How do we see each other as together inherently co-suffering with one another? Do we see ourselves as people who are in need of grace, even as we see others as folks who, I mean, my grandma would say stuff like, "That person needs Jesus." And I'm offering that what if we saw ourselves and others as we are all sinners in the need of massive amounts of grace? So, as we are reflecting our own convictions with one another, how do we hold that tension of like, there's been a playing field that has been leveled and it's under the cross of Jesus Christ? So, how do we show up with that in mind? I have a mentor who told me that true humility is agreeing with God about who you are. And I think that's one perspective on it. I think that applies both in our gifts and our talents and our skills, but also in our shortcomings. I think there's a fair dose of truth telling me we need to assume about ourselves as we show up to these conversations that helps us assume that posture of humility, that at one point, whether long time ago for some of us who have stories of like this salvation narrative, of how we came to know Christ or for some of us who grew up in the church, always knowing about God and our family systems, there's something really beautiful to consider in the posture of humility to go, hey, there's something we've all been really generous recipients of, and how do we bring that into our conversations in our context when we are trying to communicate our convictions, both clearly and with compassion? Yeah, you remind me of Paul's encouragement to rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn, and in other ways, in the book of Acts, for instance, where we see the early church struggling with the fact that the Holy Spirit is doing things in people that we didn't think the Holy Spirit was supposed to be doing things, right? And in ways that we thought were outside of, certainly outside of the law, or how we interpreted the law. And that is actually part of humility is being a part of the truth. It is being open to what the Holy Spirit is doing in another person that you didn't, that maybe you thought it was your enemy, but also inside yourself, and being able to be saying, I believe you're doing something different in me. You're growing me. I have these spots I can't see clearly, you're creating clarity for me, and being open to the Spirit's ongoing formation as an act of humility as well. And the opportunity to be changed. We talk a little bit about how conflict, there's energy and conflict. And that tension, or that energy is tension, can be tension, described as tension, it could be productive tension, a generative tension that creates something, or it can be destructive. But there's energy there. So either, you know, you got to go towards the energy, right? Go where the energy is, and that energy is going to do something. And what we want is for the Holy Spirit to be directing that energy and changing us and changing the relationship and helping us to move forward together. Yeah, and I think of how the link between humility and curiosity even plays out in that, of being curious about what God is up to, being curious about what the Holy Spirit is pointing to, and recognizing that that's all part of our formation as well. So you talk about curiosity, thinking about these postures have practices, ways that we actually live this out. So you can talk a little bit more about the practice of curiosity as a way to live out humility. Yeah, I think about in a conversation how quickly we go from listening to somebody to agree, disagree, thinking. Like we have seconds before we're listening in such a way that we're wondering how we respond and how we can get our point of cross, or how we can give an example from our own life that shows we're either completely on board with what someone's saying, or starting to state a different case. And so I think about the opportunity that curiosity opens for us that it invites us to listen more deeply, so to kind of shut off that part of our brain that is moving so quickly to agree, disagree, thinking. And instead of leading with whatever we think is going to come out of our mouths asking a question, and again, not a leading question or not a counterfeit question that is actually just a different way to say what we believe or try and direct the conversation, but to invite something more out of the other person. So even just making the move of asking the person to tell us more about something, reflect what we've heard them say and invite them to tell us more or a story about why they maybe think that way or how was that formed in them. And so I just think even when we're first trying out new practices or when we're in really heated situations or we know our anxiety is going to be high, I try and just have the practice of asking three questions before I open my mouth and say something else. And it shifts the conversation. I think it slows it down because I'm needing to think about my questions and be engaged in a different way. And often it's redirecting the conversation in ways that I never could have imagined. And in that process of asking those questions, I find myself caring for the other person, like seeing the beauty of God in them, it breaks down those barriers of me thinking, like putting them in a box because suddenly I've heard more, I see the beauty of what God's up to in their life. I love that. I think with the practice of curiosity comes an assumption that we don't know everything. Yeah. And that in and of itself is formative. It's kind of tucked and stitched in to say curiosity leaves room for mystery in a way that acknowledges that work that you were just talking about, Tanner, of the Holy Spirit. It leaves space for the Holy Spirit to speak and to move. And there's something really beautiful, I think, about posing questions and knowing that we're not the ones answering that question, that we are offering an opportunity for a different perspective. We are offering an opportunity for ourselves to be changed on the other end of someone else's answer, or to receive a perspective that we may have not even known existed. So I actually think question asking and really diving into this practice of getting curious is an underrated way that we can really lean into our own formation and discipleship because it forces us to pause. It acknowledges that we don't have all the answers and it leaves space for the other, whether the other is the Holy Spirit or the person sitting on the other side of the table from us. And it gives that person the voice of God, the opportunity to answer in a way that maybe we weren't prepared for, to take a sound of different path that we didn't even know we needed. And in that way, I think question asking is part of this beautiful mystery of this work that we're doing together, but it makes it practical and makes it tangible. Yeah. I think of how often children ask questions and they're doing that to build their understanding of the world because they have a much emptier slate. And then somehow as our world is built, only from the perspective that we've sat or the place that we've lived or are limited experiences to our life thus far, somehow we believe that we have a full picture of the world. And we stop asking questions. And so I think so often Christ invites us to become like a child and one of the ways that we become like a child is to go back and ask questions. And as we ask questions, it expands our world to reflect God's world much more. That's a profound insight because we, you made me think back to stories, we tell ourselves. And at some point it becomes unsafe for us to not know. Right. That's right. At some point we have to know whether it's our own ego or it's the stories that people tell about us at some point we have to know. And I think it's the other side of the coin of, I mean as humans we are created to make meaning. And I think that's a really beautiful part of who we are, but it can be destructive too, where we feel like the meaning that we make is set, that it can't be challenged because it's kept us safer protected up to this point. It's worked for us. And so do we have going back to the humility to allow the meaning that we've made so far of life of other people to shift or I love your word just to be expanded. And so I think questions allow for that expansion absolutely. I think the other way that the practice of curiosity has really helped my own formation is to also be curious with myself. So when I have heightened emotions or I have a response to somebody that like doesn't feel good to me, I know there's something wrong or off about it. To use those same curious questions to wonder reflectively, why is this person so triggering for me? What doesn't feel safe to me right now? What feels threatened? What feels at risk? And then sometimes as I ask those curious questions, I discover that the risk isn't as big as I thought it was. That there's other reasons or there's parts of my own story that are being triggered by that person or there's an area that I need to grow in. And I think it becomes that cycle that if I can be curious with myself, that helps keep me humble. And if I can go through that cycle and experience an expansion of my love for people and expansion of the world of God, that helps it be easier because I'm drawn towards that beauty. And so it's almost as if the first few times around are the hardest. And then as I experience the work of God in it, it forms me and shifts who I am. And I don't have to be so rigid in my practice because I have growing mastery. It just becomes who I am. I don't have to consciously say, you have to be humble. This is what it looks like. I have to consciously, like, okay, did I ask my three curious questions yet? It just forms me in a way that I can engage in relationships and in God's world differently. Because Abigail in that Old Testament story or Jesus showing up in those spaces that minus of each other, they didn't just show up like that. They had both of them became or were certain kinds of people that then when the heat was turned up, could show up like that. I also hear, I want to move from judgment and judging people to love. And one way to enact love is curiosity, which increases my understanding. People that I love, I'm curious, how did you come to think that way? And I want to know them more. Love wants to know more. But then also reverence is the other piece of that. There's a reverence in when you describe the relationships you had that were really where the love of God and love of neighborhood at the center. There's also a reverence. We talked about the image of God being image bears. But the sense of mystery and wonder that who this person is, part of them is still hidden from them even and from you. And that's exciting and kind of scary and also really beautiful to be able to enter a relationship with awe and wonder and reverence for who this person is and to not flatten them into their position, how they voted or what they think about a particular issue. I just wonder how you've experienced. I guess I'm thinking about worship, right? In some ways too. We're talking about our relationships as a way to worship God, as a way to revere God and the person that's sitting in front of us who is the picture or the image of God. Well, I even think about the reverence that we're drawn to in community and that God has created us to be made for community. Like that's part of our deep yearning and then thinking about the loneliness epidemic. And the more divided we become and the more we have this understanding that we can only be with people that think just like us that are part of our race, our socioeconomic class, our education level, whatever the divider is, people who vote like us, what we see, like there's evidence that says all that leads to is more and more loneliness where the picture of community that God creates even in the diversity of those in heaven is diverse and different and representatives of all of who God is showing up in that. And that is when we have this experience of like dissatisfaction, this is not our home. That's what we're yearning for and yet there's so much of how we act that resists that that then leads to loneliness. I love that vision of community. I wonder if we cannot have reverence for something that we haven't yet experienced and until people experience the gift and the beauty of community, they can't have reverence for each of its parts, right? So I'm thinking about the way Paul talks about the body. I appreciated my ears a lot more after I had vertigo. Right? Because there was something about my ears that impacted my eyesight. If you've ever had vertigo, it feels like the world is tilted. All of that goes back to the disruption happening in my ears. So up until that point, I had perfect hearing, but until something was off, I could not have an increased reverence for the function of my ears. And I think it's the same with us. Community helps us see the beauty of how we were meant to work together, all the different parts in concert with one another. And until we see that, we don't understand what's at stake when we are in our echo chambers. We don't see what's at stake when we're isolated to our given groups. But I do think there's this reverence that grows when we've had that taste of community of the picture of the body. And we understand like, no, I'm not a full body without my arm. I'm not a full body without my hearing or whatever part of the body you feel like you represent. It's needed. It has a specific, unique, and holy purpose. And in less than until we can experience the fullness of that, it's going to be really hard for us to have this reverence for someone who's sitting across the table from us because we haven't fully grasped that they're part of Christ's body that we actually need. They're not a throw away. So I think community to your point just helps us see the bigger picture. True community helps us see the bigger picture. And I think helps us grow in reverence for one another and ultimately for God. That's good. I mean, you guys are spitting wisdom well done. I really appreciate this conversation. Thank you both just for this introduction to the work and talking about humility and how we care well for each other. Last question. What's something that points to this same kind of reconciling way of being in the world? Something that is some art, some books, some film, some music that has resonance with what we're trying to do in the world? So a little known fact about me. I love museums. And my favorite museum here in Grand Rapids is the Grand Rapids Art Museum, also known as Graham. And there's a permanent installation there by an Iranian artist. Her name is Monier Charaudi, a farm in Farming, and the artwork is called Tier. And it is a mosaic piece. And what the artist did, she took broken glass from mirrors that was imported from Venice, Italy. She took all the broken pieces or a lot of these broken pieces and made it into this beautiful, convertible mosaic. So multiple pieces of broken glass, she made into these geometric shapes. These geometric shapes can be reconfigured to create different visual effects. So I love it because conflict tells us there's something broken. We come to conflict because something has been broken. And yet, I think this transformative work that we're talking about, this transformation that's possible in us and in our relationships. This piece of art reminds me that it can be not just productive, but it can become something beautiful. That's beautiful, Ashley. Thank you. How about you, Jess? Yeah, when you asked the question, I thought about a small story that's in Phil Bianci's book, Where the Light fell, where he's told the story of his life and his brother's life kind of framed around the impact of their dad's death and all of the narratives that were around the expectations for their lives and what it meant to honor their dad in serving God. And we think about the impact holding conviction alone has on people's lives. He tells a story about how his brother's life unfolded in what we might say rebellious ways and ways that wasn't transforming the world. The lot of people were disappointed and his brother felt very kicked out of their community and like everyone was disappointed in him. And his brother had some kind of medical event where Phil had to come and sit as his brother's bedside and his brother was virtually unconscious, not able to communicate. And as people found out about his brother's condition and they were invited to pray, he was receiving all these words of love, all of this evidence of compassion. And so in the space of not knowing, could his brother hear, what do you talk about at a bedside? He began to tell the stories that he was receiving and they were stories of love. They were stories of compassion. They were stories of people wanting him to know they loved him. And as he was telling all of those stories and giving the well wishes, there were tears that came out of his brother's eyes. And so when I think of all of this and I think of what is at stake, that I don't want our conflicts are polarization to have people feel disconnected from God's love. And so I think that becomes the story of hope in the midst of it. How about you Tanner? Yeah, the thing that comes most easily to mind is a book that I just finished reading with my book group called Demon Copperhead by Barbara King's Alver. And it's a contemporary version of David Copperfield, the classic novel. And it's about Appalachia and people who live there and the challenges that they face and the beauty of their life and the terror of their life. And what it means to be poor and what it means to be addicted and what it means to be used to have your community used and to have the land you live on used and to have your labor, your bodies be used and to sort of be looked down on and left behind and have to sort of choose each other, choose community. And it's not a community that I am familiar with. I've never lived there. But I felt like King's Alver does such a great job of humanizing the human beings who live in that place. And she just really helps you. She doesn't flatten any of the characters. You just end up sort of feeling like people are really complicated. And there are lots of things happening here that are not obvious to me. And it created a sense of humility in me just where my, I was confronted with my own lack of understanding for a community that maybe many people put down. So that was good. I highly recommend it. Well, thank you both. This has been really rich. I've learned a lot and have a lot of notes and things I need to think about and work on as well. I'm so grateful for both of you actually ingest for your work. And yeah, we'll talk to you next time. Thanks, Tanner. Thanks.