Conference Finals Preview! Plus, the Pistons’ Next Move. | Group Chat

Hello and welcome to Group Chat. I am Justin Barrier, joining me, Rob Mahoney, J. Kyle Man, the conference finals. We did it. We got here. Are you excited? How could you not be excited? Look at these matchups on the board, Justin. How are you feeling? I feel great. How often do we actually get the matchup everybody wants in the highest stakes environments? Kyle, I can tell you're just like, it's course and through you. The excitement. Yeah. I feel like I've been on a long journey. I feel like, I don't know, maybe it's like the Oregon Trail where this has been so arduous and just so, I feel battle hardened and ready for what's ahead of me. You know, just hungry for this matchup that's coming up, which is going to be. Well, I think that's the dysentery talking. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, so I just story I'm not going to go into, but not dysentery. I could. There's nowhere to go from there, but no, yeah, both of these series, man, I think you're going to be incredible. I'm pretty. One, one a little more interesting than the other, but they're both going to be really good, I think. Well, we're going to talk about both of those. Give a little preview action to the east and the west. We're also going to talk about last night's big game seven, or at least the first half of game seven. Rob, do you want to talk about that right now? I would like to talk about it after this. The Ringer NBA Show is brought to you by Fandall. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down, take your shot with Fandall and get closer to the action. Fandall is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the Fandall sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus select states, 18 plus DC can tuck your Wyoming, gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler, call 1-888-78977 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. All right, game seven, calves, pistons. I'll say this. It was nice that the Cleveland Cavaliers big advantage in the front court, especially considering how poor Jalen Dern has played this entire postseason. Finally showed up. It took seven games of the second round for it to happen, but at the half, Mobley now on had 27 points, Donovan Mitchell, six assists in the first half, it was actually like, oh, this is how this should have worked the whole time. It just took a while, but finally, teetered over, they get the win. I think that's a little uncharitable. I feel like both of those guys have had great moments throughout the series, maybe not all the same time. But like half where it's like, this is it. We're gonna knock you out. It was incredibly concentrated in a way that it sometimes isn't for the calves and like, Evan Mobley driving through a Sar Thompson's chest for a dunk. Jared Allen being an incredible rim protector, but also the second that the piston started trapping, he was just right there at the free-throw line driving in for immediate dunks. It was like the force. It was the presence. It was the consistency. I thought both those guys were amazing in this game. I just want to say really just a portrait of toughness and manhood there from Jesse. We're gonna get you by totally. They should play that on the jumbo tromba before players use games. People will be so lit. Yeah. We've been fainting the whole deal. No, it was it was interesting to see them. You know we used that word geometry a lot. The calves upgraded their geometry at the deadline, but it's hard and yeah. I mean, I think geometry gets brought up a lot. That's what I think, like in terms of your. Yeah. That makes us back to retake geometry both in the end of middle school and then to start high school. Did you really? Yeah. What happened? I'm so bad at math. I'm legitimately dumb at math. Well, the finale of this season, once the finals wrap, we're going to make you do proofs on air. Just, I mean, just for shits and giggles, just for content. No pressure to see what you're capable of. Yeah. Wait, are we all three? Like, I mean, I guess it's a reason we work for the ringer. We ride about basketball. None of us are math people. I feel like Rob probably overachieved though, right? I mean, absolutely. No. Okay, because I was like barely getting by with math. Mainly an effort thing, I think, but anything that was like memorized these facts, I was like, great, you know, I could, I could get through history and anything. Anyway, geometry, also bad, algebra, also bad. Love logic, though. I was philosophy major. They're kind of, you know, anyway, that's another thing to impact for another time. No, the geometry, they upgraded their, the quality of theirs at the deadline with the, with the addition of hard and regardless of how you feel about them. And you could pick at him and we have and people enjoyed that, I could tell, but I think there are a lot of things that are true at once. I think in that game in particular, I don't know if it was necessarily that they hit on something that Detroit had been taking away. I do think their effort was overall weirdly way better than Detroit. Yeah. Or Detroit got demoralized, whatever the reason was, but the ball was humming at different points, you know, and I think maybe the sudden urgency of getting out to Sam, you know, Mountain West Luca, Meryl or, you know, the, the bigs just playing more aggressive. There were a lot of good things going on for the cast. I mean, the ball was, I had a few clips clipped out where they were making the extra pass and it was, it was pretty. It was nice to see them kind of realize who they were or at least take advantage of it. Yeah. I mean, I did help that Sam Meryl, just the spirit coursing through him in that game. I also had to wonder like at a certain point, did the cap, did the pistons just like run out of gas and Cade in particular. So Cade, as with his stands going into the second round, played the most minutes of the entire playoff, so one individual player. Obviously, they played two game sevens and so about sticking to play a lot of games. But he finished with 394, which was 35 more than the second most, which is Donovan Mitchell. That's like an entire game and unlike Mitchell, like everything rests on Cade and the fact that he didn't have it going to bias also didn't have it going. It's kind of like they were already dealing with such slim margins offensively Rob, but just felt like without him, they just didn't have a shot. Yeah, I just don't think the pistons, even the best version of the pistons, is capable of the sort of precision we saw from the caps in this game. Like they can dial up their effort, they can be really intense, but they just sort of try to run through you at every opportunity that doesn't involve Cade having to meticulously break everything down. You just can't fake that stuff. Like you either have the secondary creation and scoring or you don't. I thought the pistons rung as much as they possibly could out of Tobias Harris on this playoff run overall. He didn't quite have it in this game seven, but that felt like a real, a real squandered opportunity, getting that much out of Tobias through all of these games. And yet when you get to this sort of finish line, you're just running up against it over and over and over. I think Cleveland, to their credit, is just a little bit more well conceived in the construction of that team. It has its flaws, it has its issues. But one reason why Donovan Mitchell was so fresh and so spy. And I thought just play like as purposeful and direct a game as we've seen from him, maybe in his entire career was just cutting through the defense like paper, spraying out to everybody accused driving a lot of that ball movement that you were talking about Kyle. But he gets to do that because he gets to share some of the burden over the course of this series in this run with James Harden. And James Harden, as a part of that too, doesn't have like every kind of no show underperforming night hung around his neck and quite the same way because he's finally reached that point in his career where James Harden can be good and elevated team. But he's not so good that you throw everything out just to build an offense around him and orient your entire world around him. So it just feels like a healthier place for James Harden for Donovan Mitchell for the entire calves organization. Like they've finally gotten enough equally balanced like load bearing players to make all of this kind of make sense for their guys. It still took them seven games, but I respect the calves survival instincts at this point. Like they may not have played a great game six, but they showed up in this one in such a demonstrative way. Well, the calves, you know, one of the hinging sort of variables for them is touch time for Harden in particular. Now you look at his stat line and it's not crazy. Great. It's not good at all. I mean, two for ten. So he didn't shoot the ball super well. But if he dominates the ball and sticks on it, a whole lot and has an inefficient game like that. It hurts you a whole lot, you know, more. Whereas you can kind of afford for him, maybe not to be at his best so long as he's not sticking on it so long. And then you get it to to Mitchell and Mitchell just seem to get get into more of a flow. Like you were talking about with his connectivity and getting those bigs and good spots. And then another thing that was sort of really working for them was the pistons that they fit this like very basic archetype of you have a you have a great primary ball handler. We talked about the calves have too. You've got a rim runner who was exposed in this playoff. So you got a movement shooter. And then you got a dunker spot guy. It's really just not very dynamic. And then you've got, you know, a shopmaker who's supposed to be a little bit of a pressure release and Tobias. And it's like that. You can, you know, you can have a whole lot of success with that. If it's like really hitting on all cylinders in that one mode of offense is working really well. The, you know, the calves are in a position to make a couple of tweaks here defensively. Like, you know, Jared had a great game. He was wandering and helping off the ball. Like he was helping, you know, tagging on the on the weak side because he just could ignore a saw. I'm not trying to pound that over over and over again, but he was just completely ignoring him. And when you have a guy that big that athletic defensively bothering them, I think we should give mobility. I don't know if we're going to get into this, but mobility now, and I think deserve a lot of credit on offense too. Yeah. Yeah, I just felt like Donovan Mitchell really played a playmaking first sort of performance in this one. And I thought he was particularly good on the dump off to those bigs. Allen was forceful at the rim, but also mobility like gave you those exact things you needed to use stretching out. And like when you have that extra element, like those are the things like the pistons just don't have. It's one thing if you're getting into a knife fight and this is like a tit for tat sort of thing. Like they could be in those games, but when it mobility gives them that extra juice, like there's just nothing really to counter there. And then once you had San Merrill going, it just like felt like a cast skated. And so I come away from this one. I feel good about the calves. They finally got over the hump. They're in the Eastern Conference Finals. Like that team probably would have gotten broken up if they hadn't gotten at least this far. But for the pistons, it's really disappointing because this was probably the logical conclusion that we were expecting this entire time that they just would not have enough juice offensively. And it's one thing where it's like, if you didn't want to swing for the fences, if you didn't want to just just like completely make the big trade for a lot of you. Mark it in or getting the shooter at the fore that we all projected for multiple months, that's one thing, right? My thing is like they just didn't have all the sort of like just basic components to make some of their combinations work, where it's like a saw was so brilliantly defensively this entire playoff. So the point where like Kenny Atkinson was out right being like our tactical adjustment after the first few minutes was just not going at a saw. We just avoided him at all cost. I've never seen anything like this in the NBA. He is that good. And that's like that's a credit to him. But the fact that they didn't have any sort of lineup that accounted for his offensive, like just an ability to affect things spatially just like it's confusing. Like why don't you just have like a stretch five on hand so you could basically play with him as your non shooter. Like I'm just talking about like any option. But basically that's why they had to lean on Paul Reed. So much is because he's the guy who had offensive juice to it. I'm just like, you went out, you got Duncan Robinson. You got the plug and play shooters for Kate. That had an effect. Why not just get this like one thing that we all thought would work because this is one of your best guys. It's very disappointing. I think these playoffs though, did confirm that he's one of their best guys. We all were bullish on as far as our prospect, but he's had health issues, injury issues. Like they're trying to figure out what to do with him offensively. He was still kind of a mystery box player. And I come out of this run just feeling overwhelmed by his defensive potential. Like he was making just bonkers plays all around the floor on the ball off the ball, completely mucking things up is clearly a one of one sort of defensive talent. Now that you know that like without question, maybe you start taking some of those team building considerations even more seriously. I'm with you though. Like you already had a star on your team. You were banking on either him or Ron Holland or both being good. Why would you not have more front court spacing to kind of accommodate for those guys? It does seem like the piss and shot themselves in the foot in a lot of different ways with their caution, with their unwillingness to do anything at the deadline in particular, other than Jettison, Jaden, Ivy into the sun and bringing Kevin Hearder and hope that he can help you. And it just wasn't enough. They just didn't have any of the moves that the calves did as far as toggling their way through this series and adjusting their spacing and adjusting their flow. The piss is just kind of our who they are right now. And they need a couple of key pieces, both whether in the starting lineup or coming off the bench to give them that kind of toggling that you need to really go on deep playoff runs. Yeah, I think the way you frame that is the right way to look at it, I think, because you can look at the offensive stuff that I was pointing to and ringing my hands about. But I think the defensive thing is the thing that exposes that this problem that we knew existed, this confirms that we have to go take care of this because it showed that ASAR is that important on defense. It's like, we can't have that glaring disparity between those two ends of the floor and Justin, the thing you said about a five, I mean, I don't know if they're gonna try to draft one with, I forget which is like the 21st. 21st, there's a couple of options there for them or, I was just thinking, I don't have the contracts in front of me, just like a nose re-type, not that there are many of those guys out there, but just a quick, triggered guy who can kind of get in the paint. That type of a five or a four or five is, I think, would be really, really invaluable for them. And granted, everybody's gonna watch these playoffs and know that's what they need. So I don't know, leverage comes into play on that, but I think that's the exact type of player that they need to try to go get because Assar is just that much of an ace on defense. - Well, this was also one of the tensions of the series is that the Cavs Bigs were so good, in part, because the best version of the pistons by the end of it was playing small. Like Jalen Durin was accomplishing nothing. They needed Paul Reed, they needed even the shots in the arm from beef stew, although he was a little bit more of a mixed bag. And then playing smaller only fed into Gerard Allen as a rim protector. Evan Mobile has an all-in-composing defensive force. Like the smaller you play, the more it ended up favoring the Cavs because the pistons version of small ball isn't real small ball. - Yeah, and I understand if they thought we're so young, we're still feeling things out. I don't understand how your go through an entire season with Assar and not even have the fail-safe option for you there. But I almost feel like they waited too long in this exploratory, like let's figure things out, but where they find themselves this off season is like they basically have to get everything done in one fell soup as the rest of the east is slowly, but surely getting a little bit better. Like the margins are gonna get tighter going forward. Like what if the magic, for instance, just had a regular, just normal regular season? That's another team that's gonna be in the mix there. So this off season, they need to make a decision on Jalen Durin's restricted free agency, which I guess silver lining is that he's probably not going to get paid what he should have paid based off of the regular season. Now maybe that contract becomes a little bit more palatable. Astar's rookie extension, Tobias is an unrestricted free agent, all of a sudden looks like maybe they're the second most important player as opposed to the contract with him, yeah. Yeah, and then Danes Jenkins has a team option, you assume that they'll give him like an actual real guy contract and rip that off and give him a new one. And so you really have to get a lot done on top of improving your entire fucking offense. And so I'm glad you said the thing about Assar because I have written down here. Like the future of this team is Kaden Assar and we could figure everything out later. I think Durin, because he's gonna be a little bit cheaper now, I think you have to bring him back his values that is Nadir, you just kind of just hope that he can get past that. But like I'm looking at this as Kaden Assar, those are my two pillars and anything else to like support them, that's my goal of this off season. Yes. And the kind of pieces they need are not just the stretch five option, but I thought it was really telling that the Cavs start maxed throughs in this game. And Sam Merrill also has a big game and their revelation of the course of it that they really need to stretch those two guys as far as they possibly could. Like they gave Cleveland a lot of that good float. They were benefiting from where, I mean, by the end of it, the Pissons were so desperate. They were just like leaving Sam Merrill wide open in the corner, like didn't know how to account for all the options on the floor. Like the Pissons have no version of that. Like I guess they could have put like, herder and Robinson on the floor together at some points, but they can't sustain that defensively. They're not built for the like, oh, let's shift our lineup around to do this one thing that's really important for us that will make life easier for Cade. And instead Cade just had to like pull blood from a stone for seven straight games after seven straight games. And that's just, it's not fair to ask that of him. He's really good. He's clearly an unbelievable reader of the floor and processor of the game. But you have to make things a little bit easier for him in the process. Max Drews being like a legitimate two way player, high impact. Yep. Is a capable course, such a revelation. Like I, I mean, I'm trying to think back because he was an off the radar prospect that like to Paul who like just shot a bunch of threes and the heat we're like, we can, we can teach you to do that. Better. So they brought him in. But I don't, I never remembered him like point of attack, attacking a star. And like you were saying that that's a huge advantage versus like what Detroit has out there. It's like Duncan Robinson. He's a little bit bigger, but he's not gonna be doing that. Like I think that was. Struces, there's a lot of credit for I think swinging kind of the tonality of this series. Like in the past three games. And he's so hot on top of that. Oh, fucking dude, you're good. I was just watching your eyes. I was like, he's waiting for the moment. It's true. Well, but let's get to the cast a little bit later. Let's just polish off the piston. Sure. Before we turn to the, to be sure you want to polish off a lot of, I think it's going to be tough for the pistons and solosies in part because like, it feels like there's pressure to get something done. I also don't know necessarily like what's the big little attractive package that they're going to swing something important here because it's really like, are you interested in Ron Holland, first and foremost? That's probably the carrot for anything. Typically no. Typically no, right? And the pistons weren't all that interested this post season because they didn't play a medicine point and then just our picks. Like we got a ton of picks, right? Which is like, we're going to be a pretty good team going forward. So like, what is it? You're counting on that some team has like a very overpaid star, probably older, that it wants to get off and we'll take your young stuff just to kind of turn the page, right? Yeah. But that's like pretty tricky because then on top of that, you also need to do some other stuff. I have some names written down here until like, a tray Murphy deal that everyone's been waiting that. I guess that makes a certain sense because the Pelicans are perpetually in rebuilding the mode. But like, carry Irving, like, is Dallas interested in that? Is Jamal Murray, like, is Denver interested in that? Probably not as long as Yokech is going to be around. Who's outgoing for pistons in these scenarios? And you're in your-- Well, they'd have to come up with the contracts in order to do so. Luckily, they do have some expirings between, I think, Lavert is expiring and like, Duncan Robinson's is like a critical rotation player. So you have to replace him on top of that. It's true. So like, I'm trying to like line up like the incentives here. Like, why, I guess, to a certain extent, that takes you in a. direction as a team or a little less K-d focused, Devin Booker, I don't think Phoenix would ever do that. And so like, I don't know, like, where's the match here? Does anything like appeal to you guys? I do think you would have to be somebody who's a little distressed or just a team that's really up against it financially and wary of the aprons or the implications that come with it. I mean, Julie is Randall sent right there. I don't know if he accomplishes anything for them, but he is in desperate need of a new home, it seems. Classic Tobias FUNK, but it might work for us. That's the wolf fans want him gone. I don't know if you've like witnessed any of there. It was a disaster. Like he was awful. Oh, I look, I blame myself. I talked myself into Julius Randall. That's so many points over these last two years because he legitimately was playing incredibly well. But then just the rug gets pulled yet again. And here he is. And here the piscons are. Your larger point stands, though, Justin, of it's going to be tricky enough to amount like the salary and the offer. And then you have to go out and find the star who's at the exact right place at the exact right time to make sense for the transaction. And I just, I don't see a lot of clean fits on the board here anymore. Now that the bloom has come off the rose with some of Detroit's prospects. Just filtering by bigs who get threes up. So we're assuming that spacing is the thing here is the premiere thing that we're looking for. I mean, you can't be like a total defensive liability. Jabari Smith nailed down for the rockets. Noah Clowny seems like somebody who's on the margins and maybe they could talk. I'm touchable to you. No, we're just, yeah. Santi Aldama, squash banana. Go down through here. I mean, there's not a lot of great options. You're kind of, you're dipping down into the, maybe Utah would want to get rid of like, you know, Kyle Filipowski, maybe now that they have all those, all that dissonance that there's at the board spots. It can't be someone like that. I'm trying to do something. You're right. You're going to sit on your hands and get fired. I'm not trying to get fired. Well, they also, yeah, you're right. They need that plus they need like actual legitimate pop in an upgrade like they need what we need. We thought they needed at the deadline. Plus some other stuff that they didn't think they needed. Yeah. Well, let's, let's, let's couch this appropriately. All of this is true. And yet they were one game away from the conference finals. They're not a disaster. If they rolled back in the next season, they won 60 games. If they roll back into next season with more or less the same lineup, that's going to be a really good team yet again, perhaps prohibitively so for the sake of their future draft picks. I think that's totally fine. I think it's fine to bank on some of these young guys continuing to get better. Jalen Durin case in point, like we're very down on him right now. Maybe the contract negotiations will reflect that in terms of what the optimism is around Durin. But he's so young and he could get conceivably better. And he does flash enough supplementary stuff where it's like, you know what, if those free throw line jumpers are a real thing for him, maybe that's something. If he's a little bit more confident and can diversify his like face up driving game, then all of a sudden you have something you can work with. They just need some semblance of one-on-one offense from someone who isn't Cade or Tobias Harris. And right now they have so little of it. They are just like, I'm like gasping for air. - Lebron, you think you want to go to the Motor City and just start to revive the motor industry out there? Just getting a car. - Do you think he can save it? - Save America, get caught. - It can look beyond save America. It's honestly a pretty good bit. We should try and stay going on this pod. - That right there made him the greatest player of all time right there. No, I think I have the solution. I think I have the solution for the off season. - Yeah. - Little subtle video leaks from a little Jalen Durin, Hakeem Alashwan, little he goes to the show. - Oh, we've seen it many times. I'm just saying it might be a nice little vibe. Klinz. - Hakeem has the best racquet going. Like show up in a gym for one day, collect a giant check as a result. How do we get that job? How do we get this paid shot consult? Oh, he, I just had like 40 K, a pop on this. - It's, I'm sure he does a lot. Maybe at a certain point if you're like not a celebrity, like did Lebron when he went to work out with him? He's like, well, I'll get you on the backside of this. Like, I don't know. I think you just got to show up with the bag of cash. Like this is not a free enterprise. Now when Victor Webinyama went to go work out with Jamal Crawford, I believe that Jamal Crawford would show up in any gym in America to teach anybody anything about basketball at any time. That just might be love of the game. Hakeem also loves the game, but the man knows how to work in industry. And he clearly has like an efficiency in the market that no one else can tap into. He didn't shoulder fake, Hakeem kind of points. We don't know what he's saying for a minute, you know? I'm sure he, I'm sure he charged Lebron like a premium, right? 'Cause it's like, you know, he needed it. Lebron's high status. - Consultancy is where it's at as a learning as an adult. Like you just know something and you just help people, but you're not like, hey, you don't have the burden of the results actually impacting you. Like, can I just teach people how to throw to breaks going forward? Do you think I could get any cash off of that? - I think that would put you in like the 99th percentile of consultants, because let me tell you the secret, they don't actually know anything most of the time. They're just showing up from McKinsey and being like, hey, act 30% of your workforce and be on your way. - It's avoidin' gettin' 'em on, you know, we're not gonna give 'em health insurance. We just need this piece of one-time info from ya, that's where we get in. So, yeah, I think Justin, you should aim for that. - We'll check this out, because right now, we're gonna go to break. - The regular NBA show is brought to you by Fandall. Fandall's giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoff long. With more boys to build and more value every time you play, you can stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup and every moment. From spreads to player, points to threes and more, build it all into one same game parlay and go for bigger payouts. So, if you're betting same game parlays, this NBA postseason, bet them on Fandall. More options, better payouts all NBA playoffs long. So, we're looking ahead to the conference finals. I'm looking at the East Finals MVP odds right here. I've got Crawl Towns at plus 9.50, that's third behind Jalen Brunson down in Mitchell, and then you got Towns here. I feel like Towns has a good shot at it, playing really well. I think 50, 40, 90, 17 points, 10 boards, almost seven assists in the two previous playoff series for the next, so I think he has a good shot at it, if Brunson doesn't get it. So, give me Towns plus 9.50 to win East Finals MVP. Head to Fandall.com/RingerMBA to get started Fandall official partner of the NBA, player game, 21 plus select states, 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming, gambling problem called 1-800 Gambler. Call 1-888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. (whooshing) The Western Conference Finals, it's the one versus the two, Thunder versus Spurs, part five of game one. Like, I just can't remember. - Part six. - Part six, that's right, 'cause there were five regular season performances. I just like, I can't think of the last time this happened. Maybe like Warriors Rockets in the West Finals, where it's like, those are the two teams on the collision course the entire season. Everyone was excited for it, and it happened and it was sick. Jalen Williams, all of a sudden back, it sounds like based on some of the quotes he was given, he could have come back against the Lakers, but they're just like, now we're up three out, don't worry about it, which like, if you're a Lakers fan, it's gotta hurt. - Well, I mean, maybe stop AJ Mitchell literally one time and then you can talk. - It's tough. - But it seems like we're gonna have both of these teams at full strength, so I'm excited. - Well, relatively full strength, 'cause I think there's, you know, Jalen Williams would have been healthy enough to go, and then there's, welcome back to the playoffs, J.Dub, you may now have to guard Victor Webinyama. Like, that's a different level of requirement that I can't wait to see what he's up for, and I just, I love not only that we've been building to this all season, but these just seem like such perfect foils for each other, right? Like, the way that Wembee, like, neutralizes the best small ball versions of the thunder with his pure size, the way that Shay is exactly the kind of mid-range score that someone, like, Wembee struggles to affect individually, even though they've bogged down O.K.C.'s offense over the course of the season. I just can't wait to see, like, what answers these teams have for each other, because we've seen them play five times. Also, in every game, there's some weird caveat happening as far as Wembee was coming back from injury. Certain guys are in and out of the lineup. Like, this is gonna be the truest test yet for obvious reasons of what these teams are really about, and what they're capable of. And I just think they're gonna bring out the absolute best in each other. - Yeah, there's a competitive element to this, where, you know, it was really funny to watch Wembee his rookie year, the way he would go through each game, and just the clear, like, rage-seeing red mode that he went into whenever they went against chat. But, you know, you were talking about the Jada part of this, too. I think we were asking similar questions when he was coming back against the suns. We were like, "Well, let's see if he can kind of tap his toe to the rhythm," kind of thing. And he came out and looked like Jesus. That, he was a monster. You know, he looked like the best player on the floor. It's time for both directions. So, I'm kind of inclined to think that he'll be okay. We didn't even mention that Fox has been, granted Fox, played pretty well on a Gimpy ankle. I think you get to the point where, if you turn your ankles enough, it's just like they're just broken in. You know what I mean? 'Cause if you go ahead, ankle problems, because the initial one is to turns. - Well, yeah, it's just like, once you've, like, broken the seal on, like, all right, I had that traumatic of it. It's like, each subsequent sprain is just kind of, like, yeah, that hurt, but I'm all right. Like, you bounce back faster, I feel like. That's been my experience. Yeah, you have a very different relationship with turndagels than I do because yeah, after you turn it the You're more likely to turn it again in pretty short order. I wouldn't say it feels great, Kyle, are you loving that part of the experience? - I basically had joints that were like, I had like a myriad net, like it would just like, just turn over, like I would just be walking and it would just be like, boom, turn, like I had a year and a half of that. And it was like, that hurt for a minute, and then I was back, but you know, eventually. But no, I mean, he, uh, he looked good, and then, you know, the other thing I think that's a really big takeaway from this is, I would push back a little bit on like, when be not affecting Shay, because I think he, I was rewatching a lot of their reps, where he was in, you know, in the vicinity of Shay. Definitely affects Shay, I'm not sure. - A fact is strong, probably. - The fact that Shay doesn't have the easy, like, sleepwalking access to the mid-range that he normally has. Granted, he can still get there. I think the chess match between, just looking at this, like from the top, you're not, so let's say you're barely into basketball. The chess match between the reigning two-time MVP and a guy who is ascending to potentially be the best player in the world, and the way that their styles counteract each other, I think that that is going to be incredibly fast-sending, and I think it's going to deliver, because both of these guys are going to have ways that they can counter and go at it, which I'd be curious to go into more with you guys. - Yeah, and it's also nice that it feels like the two things, like the two variables in order to make that sort of collision course are already, like, they're tuned up for this, whereas, like, the spurs starters have been particularly sharp in this playoffs. They're right now, like, the best lineup in the playoffs going, at least the one that's played a lot of minutes, 107 minutes plus 28 net, and 87.3 defensive rating good- - Jesus Christ. - But on the other side of that, the thunderer shooting the hell out of the ball, which is the nice little counter to Wembee, and in particular, it seems like Chet has had it going there, and that's where the wrinkles start to really get interesting, because if Chet's not going to be a force from outside, then you can perhaps just let Victor just sit in the paint and then, like, deal with the rest of it. Now, if he's going to step outside, and you have Isaiah Hartenschein working the handoff game, then you have perimeter threats from your bigs, and that's probably the one thing that the thunder didn't really have going consistently when they played the spurs the first couple of times, and so I wonder if Chet is going to play like this and shoot like this? That might be the little wrinkle little counter that they're hoping for in order to have better success than they had in the regular season, where they lost four of those matchups. - Yeah, they really need Chet in this series, because I would say overall to what we were talking about Kyle as far as how much Wembee affects Shay, Shay still got his. They were not able to take Shaykiel just Alexander off the board, still an incredible and packed full score, basically every time these two teams played, but overall, the effect on the thunder offense, I mean, okay, he was just really bogged down by San Antonio, and specifically Victor Webinyama lurking behind everything. They also kept their turnovers way down, which prevented O.K.C. from getting all of the easy stuff in transition, and they fucking neutralized Chet. He was almost as zero offensively in some of these games, and had his moments later in the season and some of the matchups finally started to pop, but not in terms of volume by the numbers. They kind of need both. They need him to be making huge and packed full individual plays, but they also need him to be a big time scorer in this series in a way that he just was not in the regular season matchup. And so if they can tap into that, it completely changes a lot of what's going on. It's just a little harder to pick the spots and even to understand what O.K.C.'s best look and lineup are going to be in a series like this. Like, how big do they want to play? How small do they want to play? What can they get away with with a guy like Wembee on the floor? It's such a unique matchup that I would not be surprised at all if the Spurs take game one, just because San Antonio is probably the biggest adjustment for any team in the league right now, playing against them. Yeah, I think the initial way that you do anything is thrown off by Wembee on your offensive side. Like the first option. I feel like we talked about this every single time we talked about them when the NBA couple is going on. It was like, all right, your first thing. You've got to have some kind of whether it's dummy offense or you have these just kind of disguised actions that flow into what you do and you try to move Wembee in some way. Angle him. It's a really interesting thing where, you know, he's guarding Caruso in a lot of these matchups, but I was going to say in terms of the preparation. Man, I would love to just be a fly on the wall because you can't really totally be results based in the way that you're thinking about going out these teams. A, because they haven't been complete, you know, they were missing AJ Mitchell missing just any combination of players. And then also like looking at when these teams have lost games. Neither one. I mean, like the thunder haven't lost since April 12th. I heard Zach read a lot of some crazy stat about like they've in the last like 50 games. The Spurs have barely lost a game. It's, it's just going to be, it's going to be fascinating to see where they choose to find wrinkles that they can attack because. Yeah, these teams have changed so much and matured so much, even Harper coming on. So it's been, it's been up and down. And it's also been these teams sort of like continuing to move forward in their maturation because they're young. That's the fun is part about this. This may be the first time of many times we see them play each other. Yeah, I just think the J Dub component here is so essential. Not only because he's typically the problem solver whenever the thunder need to. And he was last postseason in particular. It's just like those second units with AJ Mitchell playing so well becomes so much more dangerous with J Dub slotting in there. And we should mention like the Spurs second units have been pretty good. Like just the three guards plus Keldin and Cornette are a plus 24 and 37 minutes here. And so like they've talked at length about Harper's come up and like what cast the playoffs in the playoffs and then like. But if you try to use that lineup with a J Dub at center sort of lineup with AJ creating and playmaking off of that. Considering the success he had particularly that Laker series. It's just like how are you going to win those minutes because all of a sudden like the thunder just have this depth. And it's co-lessing in a way that feels seamless. We've talked in the past about like how they play all different sorts of lineups during the regular season. I feel like this is the prime example of that where it's like you could throw in your McCain for 10 minutes or not play him at all. All of a sudden like if we see Aaron Wiggins just playing 15 minutes because he has a little bit more size to go up against some of these guards like they could do that. And so I do wonder if like the non-wembee minutes could tilt pretty significantly towards the thunder but only if J Dub is available and like that seems like a pretty like. Reductive sort of like yeah they need their best players but like J Dub to me is the one that keys all of us and like if he's not there. Then all those advantages for the spurs just compound over time. It's so cool to see a superstars impact in that way too where we're used to thinking about oh. The minutes were in a coyotes is off the floor. Oh the minutes when Steph Curry is off the floor like what can you do as an opponent of those teams. And it's so much to do with like they're just not going to score as well during those moments. But this is like when Wembee is off the floor that is maybe the closest to daylight you're ever going to see in a series like this. And how much can you juice your offense so that in those four minutes you go on an incredibly important run that turns like overall the momentum of the game. That's what the spurs do to you and I think they they're starting to have their own psychological effect on opponents as a result. We've talked a lot about the thunder in the way they kind of wear you down in the way they they warp how you function offensively. But the spurs are right there like a dramatically different style of defense. But a psychological battle all their own and one that I can't wait to see the thunder like try to combat and try to make sense of as they go. Does this feel like there's a lot riding on this for the thunder if only because Wembee's trajectory is so ahead of schedule. It feels like if you not only lose this the regular season series so decisively to them and it feels like they're just like building upon these advantages that only get worse as like some of those guards get better and better. But also like psychologically if you let him like beat you in the playoffs ahead of schedule like I worry for the thunder they're going to be a factor for the next half decade at least I assume. But like I worry if like that's the sort of thing where you can't come back from if you just like let him get you this early in this playoffs like god damn like like is it hard to recover from that. I think history tells us that the great ones do bounce back right like there are certainly teams that they they have that one really maybe that's Wembee but it may be Wembee but I. I just have a hard time thinking the thunder going to ride off into the sunset complacent or like big brother turned a little brother by Victor weapon yummy. I think the thunder going to have a lot to say over maybe not even just the next half decade but longer than that this is a team and a construction that just is going to make sense for a long time. Shae is an unbelievable one on one score and beyond that there are so many wrinkles to this team that keep getting like getting turned over the fact that they have AJ Mitchell under contract the way they do. The fact that chat has so much in his offensive game yet to be explored over the next couple years. It is a huge moment like anytime you're this close it's a huge moment and you can't take anything for granted as far as just being there a year after year after year. But if any two teams are positioned to do it it's these two and so I kind of expect more of a back and forth over time where maybe this is the thunders year maybe next year is this first year like the fact that they're going to be trading off. Some of those advantages but also the tactics that come with time and familiarity. That's the stuff we've been waiting for as far as like a consistent NBA rivalry in this like parody era for the league. Yeah that's the flip side I guess to all of the you know I was praising the thunder for having when I said it was like the most dominant talent acquisition that I can remember the flip side to that is you have a lot of options and you know for them to they can't keep everybody. And I was trying to pull up their their cap space cap sheet in front of me here just to see where and when the decisions are going to have to be made but. Let's say just in what you're saying is comes to fruition that you know when we does get them and they're starting to think about like okay when and where do we retool how you know. What are the key pieces that are going to propel this forward? Obviously, I think Chet and Shay are sort of the place to start, right? I think those are the immovable things. Is that where it stops? Like, is it, or is it a threesome, you know? Like, I honestly think it probably is just Chet and Shay. That's where you, that's where you go from there. But yeah, if they, if the Spurs do get them, I think that would start to play a big role because they're, you know, assuming when he's going to be there, you're going to have to keep him in mind for whatever, whatever decisions, or do you? I don't know, I'm curious what you all think about that. I just think about it more in terms of the stakes going into this. And I think perhaps given the rash of like sports documentaries of late, I think about the fact that like how history is written by like just a select few, like the great ones, the great teams, all this other stuff. And we don't know that in real time that that is what's going to happen, like if you were to flash back to the early era bulls, it's like, oh, can they beat the pistons or like, can Michael Jordan ever win the big one, right? And it's just like, we don't know what's going to happen. I do wonder like, when be is that sort of player? Obviously, injuries are going to be a concern for him. It's the rest of his career is going to be a concern for him. But it's just like, if you let him get ahead, like I do wonder if he's the type of talent that could turn the page and all of a sudden history is just him, you know? And so like, that's what I feel going into this. Like, I feel like people should really know like, this is an important series. And it feels like that going into it. But what if it goes the other way? You know, like what if what if the thunder are such an exercise in frustration that they have an incredible series or one in which they don't dominate, but they kind of keep the spurs at arm's distance for significant parts of it? And then it's like, oh, all that regular season shit didn't mean anything at all. Like we thought we had an advantage in this matchup, but it turns out when the thunder really get down to brass tax, when they really tighten the screws, this is the kind of team that can be, and this is how they can stress test us as the spurs. I think these are two, like they're two remarkably talented and frustrating teams to play against for a variety of reasons. And how you deal with that as a team, like that's what dynasties are made of. That's what long-term contenders are made of. It's like, what do you do with that first taste of defeat? Or like particularly frustrating and dispiriting kind of defeat? Maybe the series ends up being that, or maybe it ends up being the kind where it goes seven, and everyone kind of shakes each other's hands and they're like, man, that was just like a fucking dog fight. Well, with the wolves, I think it was, this is going to be very different. I want to make sure we give the thunder their credit. I know we're kind of speculating about, and it's so fun. You talk about the sports documentaries. It's like, it's so fun to watch the Ascendant star be like, you know, beat the boss and sort of like go on the journey and level up and conquer everything and get validated. But it's like, with the thunder, this is a much, much different opponent than the Spurs have had to pick at and sort of exploit because, you know, there isn't just one Jayden McDaniels out there that you can go get into foul trouble and then it like changes. Like the thunder having credible death in that area. Like they have multiple guys who can kind of switch and move around and it's not like a one-to-one. Their versatility on defense is, it's such an interesting juxtaposition between the depth of ball handlers that the Spurs have and the defensive versatility that the Thunder have. I think that the Thunder need to be given their credit for what they are as excited as we are to kind of like see the Spurs do what we hope that they could do. I mean, do you think more people are picking Tyler and I were talking about this. You want to talk about somebody complaining about Jalen Durham. I just want to say, I have never gotten more texts about. I can't believe, I can't believe he's probably going to say, I can't believe that Jalen Durham was put over chat on all NBA. No, I mean, who do you think is going to be picked more? Is it the Spurs? Is there like a froggyness to pick the Spurs or is it split 50-50? I guess the Thunder, you think? Yeah. I think the Thunder are probably the betting odds favor them and I imagine most people would as long as J.Dub is going to be healthy. Yeah. I'm more just like trying to get into my Bob Costa state of mind to just like the Thunder dynasty, perhaps in the making, but Wembee is standing in front of him, hoping to blot out the sun, like that's just me going into this, like there's just stakes here. Why do we not start every show with you doing a monologue to set the stakes, not just for what's going on in the NBA, but for us today on this podcast, you know, I have to make a moment for Kyle Mann. I'll have to write it out, but because clearly the profession is exactly the proven pedigree. Yeah. Well, let me ask you this, along the lines of the defensive versatility that you were mentioning Kyle, I would say it's not only in the back court as far as like what do you do with all these ball handlers. One of the funky things about this matchup is even though we saw them play each other five times, I still don't really know what the Thunder's like preferred go to defensive strategies against Victor Webanyama at jump because all of them had something weird going on. Wembee was coming off the bench and some of those games guys weren't out of the lineup. I would like to put to the two of you a little guessing game, a little trivia. Who do you think on the Thunder guarded Victor Webanyama the most this season in terms of total minutes guarding him in that matchup? I'll guess. Hardenstein. It is not. It's not as they are. I understand who is eighth on this list. Sorry. Ninth on this list. Okay. Is it Caruso? It is not Caruso. It's Ken Rich Williams because there was one game of like a lot of bogus minutes in which no Thunder guys played, but also to keep going down the list, it's amazing how far you have to go to even get to chat to even get to Isaiah Hardenstein and I don't know what role Isaiah Hardenstein is going to play in this series exactly or who he's going to hang against. I do think if he's able to be a significant part of it, that's going to rely on him kind of doing his best Rudy Go Bear in the first couple games of that series impression of like hanging on the floor, at least challenging, like having to guard Victor specifically because I don't know where else you put him at this point. Who do you guys got? You want to make some predictions? I think Thunder in seven. I don't see like a fatal flaw here. I don't see like, oh, here's the one little thing that's going to be the crucial turning point. I just think the turnover margin is going to be a little more favorable to the Thunder than it was in the regular season and I don't think the Thunder offense is going to be pretty at basically any point in the series, but I think they're going to eat out just enough between Shay and JW and AJ Mitchell who is we alluded to miss a lot of this regular season series too. I think OKC is going to squeeze it out, but I mean, this is going to be an incredible one. You said the fatal flaw. Yeah, they don't really have one. The only fatal flaw they have right now is their, they're, they're, they're fortunate. They have to play Wimbee. That's their problem. And the, the transitions really interesting because that was one thing. Both of these teams have just been slapping the shit out of people in transition and it's like, you look at the way this first and you were talking about their plus minus numbers to it. It's like these two teams have gone through, they, they have had so many like curb stoppings on their, on their journey to this where it's like their plus minus is kind of inflated where I'm like, it's not totally even representative. I feel like in any given situation, but I want to say the Thunder and seven just to give them their respect. Like I, I'd be very surprised if it was, I got, to me, that's more the question. Do you think that they can beat them in less than seven because I, I feel like the spurs have the options to kind of muck this up. I, I'm with you, though, Rob, I mean, I, I lean towards seven with this, with the Thunder. Yeah. I would go Thunder and seven, but if JW doesn't look right, I might flip that. Am I in perfect and say it's spurs and seven could be. I think another piece of this we didn't really talk about is like Stefan Castles, the kind of guy who you would think, okay, see, you would be able to really bog down and they just weren't really able to do that when these teams have met so far. So it, it's not like the Thunder are going to have all the answers to literally anything. Like there's going to be a lot of breakthroughs on both sides. I don't know that there's a way to fully trap and deny a version of the spurs that is this actualized with all of its ball handlers, kind of like working in concert in the way they have. They're, they're going to be awesome to watch in a series like this. And if anyone has a chance to crack through a Thunder's defense, I think it's going to be them. Yeah. I have a stat. Can I do a stat? This is simple. It's not, I don't think it's hard to understand SGA in particular. I was going back and watching ball screens with Wimmy on the floor, but this was an interesting stat. High picking rolls, which is where Shay is like probably the most dominant player of the last. I don't even well him and Luke, it's an in, we talked about in the synergy database. He's off the charts. He's destroying everybody in possession and I was not nerdy and then you took us straight into the synergy database. I think it's not okay. Anyway, I'm not going to say like points per possession. This is a, just a percentage. Okay. So he affects the way Shay plays in high ball screens, which is where Shay likes to play most of the time when he comes off of the screen, which is what he does most of the time. He's learning to hit that shot from three. That's been a big development. But on plays where he comes off of the screen and goes to the basket. The whole rest of the regular season, every other team, every other rep, he would go to the rim on 32.8% of those possessions. When Wimby is on the floor, that number drops to 18% to give you an idea of the way that Wimby affects Shay. And I had noticed that it wasn't always even that like Wimby block Shay, Wimby gets a deflection to get Shay. There were multiple possessions and I could tweet these out where Shay turns the corner. San Antonio even conceded gaps to him. They were like, Hey, here's an elevator door where the door is not close. You want to come through here. Shay would look up, see Wimby and stop paying attention to what else was going around, going on around him. Like in a couple of times, like Vicell got through the screen and block Shay. So that's just the impact. That's the chess game to me that I think is going to be really, that wasn't overly nerdy. Whether we're just talking percentages here, baby, it just came down a little bit. Just a couple of rows. Just a couple of rows talking percentages. Yeah. Yeah, man. minus 20 is the big, the big number here. - Yes, I think that you love a short wind up, I know Justin, but yes, that was, that's the percentage drop. It's a significant thing. - Seems like it. - It is a significant thing. What Kyle has his dramatic reads, all right? - What do you want? - All right, why don't we take another break? We'll come back and talk about the East now. - Some of us that have brought to you by Amazon Prime, never find yourself scrambling to grab that special something for a last minute party, a spontaneous date, or even that impromptu game night at home, that's when Prime's same day delivery swoops in. That essential item you thought you'd miss delivered, the plan saved, the win, secured. Because with Prime's same game delivery, you can grab it and go before the moment passes you by same day in delivery, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.com/prime to find millions of items delivered fast, available in select areas, terms apply. All right, so the Cavs have played two straight seven game series. In between those series, they've had literally one day off. They had that going into the second round, they're gonna have that again because they play again on Tuesday. They haven't had more than two days off since the start of May. It is now May 18th as we're recording this, and so they're basically dealing with a completely different set of rest. Then most of the rest of the playoffs, because all three teams have been waiting for a little bit, and the Knicks have been waiting for them after sweeping the sixers. It's the type of thing where it's like, talk about this all the time, rest first for us, all this other stuff. - Yeah. - That's like one thing, right? But I also think it matters in this series in particular because the Knicks have played like a juggernaut for the past two weeks, and so it's one thing if you just have a rest advantage, it's not a thing if you compound that with the fact that one team perhaps is playing the best basketball, like since they've come together, like I can't think of another stretch rob where the Knicks have looked this good and this styled it. I mean, maybe the best basketball of anybody in the league, like the Knicks have been so dominant on their run. Different caliber of competition, then if you want to compare it to the Thunder, the Spurs or whoever, but they feel like a totally different team. Like these two teams have only played once since the James Harden trade. I would argue they played zero time since the Knicks became the Knicks. And so I don't know what there is to take away from the regular season matchup in particular. Other than to say, this feels especially messy in like a shell game matchup sort of way. There's going to be so many weird cross matches that are going to have all of these like ripple effects as a result because it's not like a, you're one through five guards there, one through five. You're going to jump up the board a little bit. You know, Josh Hart is going to guard James Harden a good portion of the time. I don't know like what the Cavs want to do with Evan Moby and Jared Allen. How much they want to play off Josh Hart or not? 'Cause believe it or not, this is the one playoff run in which Josh Hart's like black magic has not worked to make him a confident three point shooter in the playoffs. And so now you can actually cheat off him a little bit. And what do you want to do with that? Do you want to treat him like a Sar Thompson? Do you want to treat him like maybe slightly more of a threat than that? There's just like a lot of options on the board for both of these teams in a way that is exciting. It feels very new based on who we believe them to be even a month ago. - I think the Harden acquisition affects this matchup green, we didn't get to see the Celtics. It wouldn't matter. But I think it affects this matchup more than any other one that they've had in the playoffs. Because we saw them play one game. We saw it as they are currently constituted. And it was just hardened landed and I mean, it wasn't that fast, but it was pretty fast after they acquired him and they rolled him out there. But the thing that jumped out to me was if they can get the Brunson part of this, when you have James Harden, I think it's really interesting because they haven't played a guy who is as multifaceted in ball screen as James Harden is. So he's going to be going at Brunson a whole lot and he can shoot over Brunson and he can, you know, he's big, he's big and physical player. And then the cap part of this, I think those two guys on the floor having two guys who are elite, you know, picking role players, I think it's going to be, I don't have like a long lined up stat for this one, but I think Brunson, as it pertains to Harden being out there, I think it's going to be something really interesting in the show game like you were talking about. Yeah, I definitely look at the guards in this one. In part because of that, obviously Brunson's going to be picked on defensively. But also on the flip side of this, this feels like a backdoor Evan Mobile, you got to show me something sort of series in part because the calves rely so much on those guards to get things done. If Mobile isn't going to have a dramatic effect, like offensively and creating, and they used a little bit more of him putting it on the deck against the pistons, it's just like, they just become so much easier to guard because they have all of these other options to throw at both of those two guys like Bridges and if OG is healthy, like that becomes a little bit easier because then you can only force some of your bigs to match mobile in terms of physicality, typically isn't going to win that battle. And so where's the element that's going to force the nicks to do things that they don't want? I just like, I haven't seen it consistently. Like it comes in flashes as we talked about, but like if you're just sick and Bridges and OG on the two big creators, and that's how you're getting things done, like I just don't know where the calves advantages start to like matriculate, right? Like where's it happening? Well, I do think this is a series where they just can't really get away with the Dean way of stuff anymore. Like Max Drew's needs to continue to start rock, you know, I know that's rocket science coming off of a game seven where the team looked great, but for one, you just can't give Jalen Brunson somewhere that's that obvious to hide. Like the nicks will put Jalen Brunson on Dean Wade in the corner and just let him chill defensively and you can't let him get away with that. You have to put him in action. Even if it's just Max Drew's running around screens and make Brunson be a chaser, all of those things, but also you need to open up the space for Moby and Alan to do what they do offensively and to get some of that flow that you tapped into in game seven. It's just gonna be a totally different thing though. Like the calves to this point, they've had a great run. Again, I don't turn my nose up at anybody who makes it to the conference finals, especially with the responses that they've had along the way. It's been an awesome calves run, but they haven't had to play anything resembling this nicks offense. They have never had, they haven't had to reckon with that sort of firepower at any step so far. And so they're gonna have to figure out, yeah, how they really attack the nicks and how they actualize Moby and Alan as like real and consistent weapons. But they're also gonna have to slow down this like top down car on the many towns in the high post, Brunson working off ball, Mikhail Bridges being himself again kind of offense that to this point is just like torn through everyone the New York has played against. You mentioned Dean Wade. I mean, they had some success with Wade not necessarily attacking Brunson in a switch, but just each shooting over him. That was something that we're having some luck with. Where you put OG, I think is kind of an advantage as you were alluded to, like he's guarded Moby this year more than he guarded James Harden. And I was kind of like, that seems like if you're really gonna try to stress Evan Moby because in the, you know, in their previous series against the nuggets or the nuggets, the pistons, he was getting in positions where he was attacking straight lines both of their bigs were. And I think that putting OG there, I think could be an advantage like you were talking about trying to stress the calves. I don't know, where do you, I would probably think about putting him on on an Evan Moby 'cause he can guard him, he has some experience there. - I think that would be my assumption of where he starts, right Justin? - Yeah, I mean, it depends on how much you decide to go a little bit bigger in this series and how much you would sacrifice offensively from that. Like is this gonna be gonna shoot out? Do you play Mitchell Robinson a lot more than you want to? If it's just Kat in OG in the front court, like you just don't have the size in order to match even that with Moby, like who would you stick on Moby at that point? I just, like everyone else would just get physically overwhelmed. But if you're a little bit bigger, then you have a little bit more options. But yeah, I think it goes back to what you guys were saying about overall about the bench where it almost feels like the nicks of all of a sudden become the deeper, more consistent team, whereas the calves have started to resemble like the tipsy and like we really play seven or eight guys. And the depth, like for the calves, it almost feels like there's a little bit more of an either or situation where it's like, oh, if Shrews isn't there, we'll go to Wade or we'll go to Merrill Moore, whereas like the depth for the nicks, there seems to be like the supplementary, like just more plug-and-play role player types that fit around everybody else where it's like the bench is playing well and it seems like they can get consistent minutes and like a very clear need from all those guys when they need it. And so it's a very weird situation to be with the nicks where like they're not only playing well and their best guys are playing King Buster's cat and Brunson in particular, and OG who before the injury was playing the absolute best offense of his career, but it's also like the bench is playing well until like I don't know how to wrap my head around this version of the nicks. - Well, especially when you're thinking about what you get from those bench guys, like Ducy McBride is gonna come into the series and give the nicks a really important defensive minutes against probably hard and and Mitchell at various points, right? Like the calves don't exactly have their version of that, Dennis Shrewdler can be pesky, he's been pretty good by and large in these playoffs, but to me this is also a reason why you keep Dean Wade on the bench is it like at least calibrates who you have positionally coming in as a reserve, right? You at least have some front court player who isn't just like an overtaxed three who can come in and like give you some real minutes of the four. The nicks though, like what they've been able to do with their bench over the course of this year and developing it without these playoffs, really remarkable, like the Landry-Shamit Minutes continue to be really important there. It almost doesn't really matter how small they play, they'll throw out three guards together at various points without seemingly any cost at all. Like they just have enough flow and enough energy and enough pace that they work with with those groups that they paper over a lot of different things. And the Mitchell Robinson is such a unique force on the offensive glass that he kind of bends you in ways that other reserves don't. I just, I've been so impressed by the nicks. And to the point that I have a hard time like understanding the larger Cavs case here. Like first, as good as they've been for as many weapons as they have for as great as we just saw Donovan Mitchell play, beating the Knicks is just gonna be a really, really tall order. I don't know that Cleveland really has it in them. - You're talking about their bench. I mean, I feel like, I feel like I would be remiss Rob if I didn't give you an opportunity to gloat about Tyler Colick. - Oh interesting. - I mean, you know, you got a lot of grief for that. I think we're being fair here. All is fair. I mean, do you want to go ahead and just catch one in here? - Let's take a middle ground approach here where Tyler Colick looked really good earlier in the season. Off the tails of me saying, I'm not even sure he's a real NBA player. He's a real NBA player. But the Knicks have ascended to the point where they just don't really have a use for the him in games like this and in series like this. He's just not up to this competitive standard, which I think says as much about the guys who do play as it does Tyler Colick. - You're so gracious, really, something to aspire to. - Thank you. - Anything else in this one? I tend to find myself in the same place as Rob where it just feels like the Knicks have this and the Cavs especially considering the road they've taken to get here. I just harden, we'll give you a game or two and so I could see this going six. But other than that, like, I almost feel like it's disrespectful to predict five at this point. Four used to be like the absolute slap in the face but five has become that where it's like, oh, you give him one game? No, so I would say Knicks and Six in this one. But I can't go beyond that. - Yeah, I think my head says Knicks and Five as you're mentioning Justin, but my gut says Knicks and Six basically because the Cavs just continue to find ways to survive. And so you tip your cap to them, but also to their ability to just like scrounge games out of thin air. I think they will do that in this series at some point. They're obviously gonna press the Knicks. It's not as if the Cavs don't have their own firepower. It's not as if they don't present their own problems. It's just on a matchup level. OG being healthy is probably the wildest cards on the board here because if he, like exacerbates that injury, if he has to leave this series for a couple of games that changes a lot, that changes how New York matches up. It changes what they can go to. He's been amazing at just exploiting any mismatch that's in front of him big or small or weighing a like. And so he's crucial for New York. And if he, if that is, if he's not available, it changes a lot. But so long as he's out there in any functional form, I just think the Knicks have a lot of answers. I think they have a lot of counters. And if anything, this has been the development of this era and this run in particular is the way they are running their offense gives them so many different ways to respond to all of these threats and tactical adjustments over the course of the series. And that's a credit to Ronald and he towns for the way he's been reading the floor and tapping into different elements of their offense in a way where it's not just Jalen Brunson, ISO Ball, which he's very good at, but maybe reaches a certain limit. It just feels like the ceiling has been blown off what the Knicks can be. And I don't think the calves have any real way to remedy that. Yeah, I think the perimeter defensive sort of chess board definitely favors the Knicks because they just have on paper options and they've developed several other than you were talking about McBride who's been good. And then obviously with OG and with, you know, you could throw in Josh Hart and obviously with the, and then Bridges. But you're talking about everything kind of we've, we've gone into detail about how cats, you know, schematic and also just his personal sort will one feeding the other in effect. Yeah. His confidence is high. If you were going to pick any kind of devil's advocate place and just prod at it, I think it's that Jared Allen and Moby both, you know, if they go double big, that is another thing to consider for the Knicks if they play Mitchell Robinson. But the calves do have a little bit of an advantage there. Maybe a lot of it have an advantage. I'd be curious to go back through their history and to see how he's performed against those two guys. But those are two guys that can get out and can test him and, you know, Moby's physicality has improved. If they bother cat or get cat to draw, that was another thing. The brunt's been picking on him part of this. But if they are able to sort of pick at him on, in his defense, you know, and get him in a foul trouble, I think both of those things working in concert could stress Carl Anthony Towns. How load-bearing is his shift as a player? Let's say that they do compromise him. What's that gonna do to the Knicks? To me, that's the spot, if I were gonna say, like, there's an argument for this could go 5, 6, 7, you know, well, 6 or 7, that's what it would be to me. I, but I'm kind of with you guys, where I think it's probably gonna be the Knicks and 6. But that Carl part of it, I think, is where you could, you could stress them. Towns, like a C-series? Is that what we're saying? I think this is where the Knicks comes out. I don't see you run, like, he's been unbelievable this year. But this, like, gets him, like, third row in the, once a Knick's always a Knick, sort of, like, faction. Like, he's in the back there with, like, the role players, versus he's on the core, all the time. Like, Carmine, I don't even know what this, I don't even know what the standard is to get in there, 'cause it's, like, you're in one series, you get a C, you know, like, TV series. Let's see, if Starbird didn't even play well for the Knicks, granted he's a native son. Yeah. I don't know what they're just, they have an open door, gracious policy, and I commend them for that. But I think Carl's gonna, there are no rules. It's the, like, Carl's gonna only policy that they're open about anything. But yes, they're very hospitable to former players and literally no other human. It's very true. I love that I'm like, you only have to be in one series and it's the soprano. So I guess that's it. I'll clarify with that. (laughing) It's true. It's a doozy. I think Starbird was, like, on the road in Atlanta, was it sitting next to Jim Dolan? And that's where the famous quote of Dolan being like, oh yeah, I don't know about these guys. They're fucking killing him or whatever it was. 40 fucking points or whatever, you know? So maybe he's just like a part-time roadie for the Shoreshot, you know? I think he gets a lot of the base. I think Starbird has some chops. He's got some rhythm to them. All right, anything else on this one? Any big picture thoughts? How about a little picture thought? Okay. Is this, maybe more of a Keon Ellis series than some of the previous ones? That's very little. Well, very little on this, because of the undersized nature of New York's bench, like there just was nowhere for Keon Ellis to play against the pistons, but I think in a series like this, he might actually be able to give them some minutes if he can keep his head on straight and not gamble too much. I didn't expect you to say that. Do you think Kenny Atkinson knows that he's still on the team? It's unclear sometimes, but also can you really blame him? It would be nice for them to do a little bit more. You're right. They did feel like they kind of metastasized how many players they're gonna play. And you get like a couple of spare minutes from here, like here and there from everybody else, but you're right. They're really kind of like riding a tight. And if the minutes start to compile on some of these guys now in their third series, I could see them doing that, but especially at the start to it. You know, it's like you find out over the course of the series who can really hang and play, but game one, game two, it's a lot of like throw people out there and see what works. And can you give us five good minutes in a way that could actually mean something in the series? I could see Keon Ellis having a game where he has that kind of impact. I don't know if it's gonna last though. - Jalen Tyson, I called for him very erroneously, prognosticated that this might be a Jalen Tyson series in the last one. And then he like just stopped getting in entirely. I don't know if that was they stopped me to be able to trust him or whatever. Yeah, four minutes in that close out game. - Well, he sort of self-destructed there. - Yeah. - Yeah, he did. - They really didn't trick back from that. Yeah. - It's tough. - Who among us, right? - Before we close out though, I do wanna give James Hard one more bit of credit 'cause I feel like part of the reason the calves are on this run, part of what he brings to their team is that when you have him and Mitchell out there together, it just like pulls the other team's defensive resources a little tighter, right? It takes away some of the pressure on Mitchell, the number of defenders, the types of defenders you throw at Donovan change when Hardin is on the floor. And so yeah, James Hardin has not always covered himself in glory, but just by virtue of being on the team, he changes the way you match up with Cleveland in such a significant way. That said, I think the Knicks are a little more resistant to that than basically any other team in the Eastern Conference, certainly the elite teams of this year's class. And so because they have the ability to move a healthy OG if he is gonna be that and McHale Bridge is and Josh Hart kind of in whatever combination and alignment they want on those two. It's, that's asking a lot of those three defenders, but I think James Hardin deserves some credit for the way he is sort of uniquely stressed out opponents just by like being out there and doing James Hardin's stuff. - James Hardin in New York with a day off in between. What can go wrong? - What could possibly go wrong? - Kyle, do you have any stats you wanna throw out here before we go? - Not too nervous. - The only stat I could think of that I wanted, I had it written down that I wanted to mention to you guys is listening time to Clareau since we joked about it. - Sure. - A while back. - It's going up. - In our house, man, the Clareau, it's just, I always was a fan, but it's, we turned, do you guys use, do you guys turn on the, this is so-and-so the playlist that, you know, to be a part of? - Yes. - I'm not a guy, I'm a great assistant guy, but I'd, I'd eat app. - It's an introduction now. - It's a wonderful app if you're wanting to just dabble in something that this is Clareau. We've been, we just turn it on. It's good vibes. Sunday morning we're making coffee and brunch. It's just, we got bags going, you know? - We love times. - So you're saying you think the spurs can do it if they try? If, I mean, if only to say that the championship is, look, we're straining the lyrical metaphor, but I do think we could all stand a little more Clareau in our lives. - Yeah. The LA Tweet Queen, just unrivaled. - If you say so, I don't even know that that's accurate. Is she not Tweet, she's very, - I don't think that's Tweet. - No, this isn't like Bel in Sebastian, you know? It's not far off. - I think it's quite far off. - Stars of Tracking Field. - I guarantee if you were to look at Claro's own Spotify, there's a lot of Bel in Sebastian going on there. - That may be true. I think Claro's a little more like Burkin Stock than, you know, like, I'm trying to move in. - Is that a band? - No, we're just talking about specifically the clog. - The footwear. - I'm talking literal clogs, I'm talking literal clogs as opposed to like Peter Pan to Collar, which I think is maybe more Tweet-affiliated. - Getting in there. - All right, we're trying. - Stars of Tracking Field, too far. (laughing) - All right, to the next step. - Where we go through the Smiths catalog. - Can't wait. - The German. - Be down. - Rob's favorite song. All right, we'll be back on Wednesday, as per usual. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely, thank you to Ben Cruz, thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll talk to you next time. - 21+ in present and select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas, Starkicino, or 18+ in present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem called 1-800-Gamberler, or 1-800-MyReset. Call 1-888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat and Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts. Or call 1-877-8 Hope-NY, or text Hope-NY in New York, Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.