8. Competition with Zaven Mardirossian and Michael Riordan

We would like to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet to record the podcast. The wereundary people of the Cooler Nations. We pay our respects to elders past and present and acknowledge that sovereignty was never seated. Hello and welcome to Access ABL, a podcast where we take you past reception, past the meeting rooms and right to the heart of Arnold Block-Leabler, in the hope that you will get to know the law firm that wants to get to know you. My name is Nat Ryan, I'm a lawyer in the commercial team, and my name is Craig Evans, and I'm a lawyer in the litigation team, and today, Nat, we meet the ABL competition team. I knew nothing about competition will be for I started. I taught it. Yeah. I was going to say, "You went and taught it!" I had to learn it. Look at him now. I'll know about an election. Yeah. Like I said, you'll learn on the job, yeah. Like quicker than you will by reading cases and attending lectures. In this episode, you'll find out why being a competition lawyer makes shopping more fun. And why studying competition and intellectual property at uni is not a prerequisite. And the copyright dispute that put the ABL competition team in global news headlines. So, let's access ABL. Our first guest heads up the ABL competition team. He has been described as a master tactician by the legal 500-Ager Pacific, and has been recognised as a leading lawyer by Best Lawyers International, Chambers Asia Pacific, and the legal 500-Ager Pacific in the areas of competition and intellectual property law. Please welcome Zavon Marosian. Kind that. Hey, go ahead. Good. Our second guest is a lawyer in the ABL competition team. He is a commerce law graduate from Monash University and was the winner of the inaugural Australian Centre for International Commercial Arbitration. SA competition, please welcome Michael Riedund. Thanks Craig. Thanks for having me. No worries. We're so excited about today. And I think just to get straight into it, so your team, the competition team, it appears to be such a dynamic department within the firm with, you know, really diverse clients and some seriously big brands that you see all around. Can you tell us a little bit about the clients that we act for? Sure. We act for a broad range of clients across the multiple industries. We represent, for example, a number of national, international retailers. We act for the Just Group and their separate brands, which include Peter Alexander, Smigel, Just Jeans, as well as Portmans and Jackie E. We have also done work for De Cuba, Suzanne Cookai. More recently we've been acting for Mecca, Signet and the Spotlight Group, who are the owners of Anaconda and Harris-Calfe. And also the Axen Group, who are the owners of Plata Pulse, Athletes, Foot and Hype DC and a number of other brands. It must be interesting going shopping with you then. We act for them, we act for them, we act for them. Actually wearing jeans from JJ's today. In addition, we act for some of the major online players like Kogan. We have also for some time acted for some of Australia's largest industry super funds like HostPlus. We work with them in various ways. For example, we assist with their advertising campaigns, you may have seen the iconic compare to Pierre. Yeah, yeah, at Aunty. Iconic. Yeah, that comes with us for compliance and for checking because financial services advertising is very highly regulated. Recently we've also done a lot of major litigation for the retail food group, who are a listed franchise or and they own brands like Gloria Jeans and Crust and Donut King. Yeah, well. We're also well fed in our department. Some great perks in the competition team. I mean, Michael, even though it's a specialised area of law, the competition practice is quite broad, isn't it? Because you cover competition law, consumer law, trademark and copyright, intellectual property, plastic familiarising yourself with court procedure and the rules of the court. Can you tell me, for example, what does a day look like for a lawyer and your team? Yeah, absolutely. Crank. We absolutely do a lot of front-end and back-end type stuff. So, for example, for today and yesterday, I've been working through finalising a briefed council on a natural sea federal court proceeding. Also, I've been doing some IP staff. It's a finalising submission in a trademark opposition hearing. I'm also intimately involved in preparing for a trial that's coming up in the Supreme Court. It's involving Australian Grand Prix Corporation. Oh, wow. What a fans out there. Yes. Robbie Williams is somewhat involved, but not really. Well, you know, in 2020, the Australian Grand Prix was cancelled by the election because we had a plight. Yes. One way to describe it. It relates to the concerts that were scheduled to take place at night by Miley Cyrus and Robbie Williams. But yeah, I'm working on preparing a trial there. So, putting all the witness packs and all those materials. And then also sort of the front-end advisory work. So reviewing a lot of consumer-facing materials, things like TV advertisements and stuff like that for, you know, your misleading, deceptive conduct. Issues like greenwashing, which is the big one, the atrop sees focusing on at the moment. And yeah. Very topical. Yeah. Very topical. I mean, you've just touched on it there. It's like there is a really clear picture of breadth within the practice. And Zavin, it would be good to hear from you what that looks like at the partner level. And also as a leader of the team. Well, it is broad. We handle regulatory investigations and litigation in the group. And we deal with the atropal C on a daily basis which is fun. We also deal with other regulators, including ASIC because they regulate financial services in particular, the advertising of financial services. And also Ackmer, who regulate consumer communications, privacy and data. Another big part of our practice is product safety recalls. They are also regulated by the atropal C. And we also assist our core clients to develop and implement compliance programs. In addition to the back-end work, we also work with other groups very closely. For example, the commercial group. We will get involved where there's a merger or an acquisition which may raise a competition issue. Our commercial laws are also very, very good at spotting potential competition issues and agreements that might be reviewing. And we'll provide advice from time to time in relation to that. Likewise, we work closely with our property team. A good example is during COVID when we assist a lot of our retail clients and their negotiations with their landlords over rent and other relief by reason of simply not being able to occupy the rent depremaces because of the lockdowns. Oh, with so many retail clients. That would have been a lot of work. Yeah, that was a very, very busy, very busy period of us. We also work with our workplace team. For example, there may be an issue in relation to the misuse of confidential information by an outgoing executive or employee or the enforceability restraints on competition grounds. Bridget and I and Rachel and I and other members of the team will work closely together. That's what interaction is typical amongst all other practice areas. Lawyers in the various ABL departments will always work in collaboration with other teams and I think that's a really important way for junior lawyers to develop because they get to learn about different areas of law but also the different strategic approaches that and styles that partners across the various teams have. It would be good to actually touch on maybe the department or get your take on a Zoom walk. But if I can, I just wanted to maybe just touch on competition law again. I mean, the team itself is fairly new. It only celebrated its 10th anniversary, was it last year? Last year, I mean, the department is new as a standalone department. But the reality is I've been practicing in this area for a long time. I didn't study competition but when I finished uni, I took up a lecturing position. It's a part time in the first five years that I was actually practicing the law and comp was one of those issues where topics that I taught and I took an immediate light to it. What was it that you enjoyed about it? Well, it was obvious to me that competition was really at the heart of all trading commas in Australia. Practicing in that area would consequently expose you to a range of industries. And then what was behind the decision to go from academia, the lecturing, to practicing? How do you see the differences? I did them both the same time. I was undecided after I left university whether I wanted to pursue a career in academia or be a lawyer. An opportunity came up to lecture. So, you know, in the first five years that I was practicing here, I'd leave here at 5 or 6. Go to the deliver lectures and then watch tutorials. And then after five years, I thought, no, I don't really want to be an academic. Five years is a good crack though. It was a good crack. But, you know, it wasn't just competition law is like contract. It's a great way to, you know, actually learn different areas of the law and brush up your skills. Yes, but as a junior law department, and I was in a litigation department back then, knew that I had this interest and I was lucky enough to have competition work referred to me from various other groups in the firm. So then just on that then, can you maybe give us an idea of how you went about establishing the department? Well, it was basically a thing you think because we had sort of like a whole firm approach for the whole concept. Yeah, sorry, a whole firm support. It got to a point where it was obvious to me that a standalone competition department would not just be viable but would also be successful. So me, my partner Matthew Lee's who also did his gratitude under me, two other lawyers just restarted the department. Wow. And it's grown since then. And so now, yeah, there's three partners and three partners. And how many lawyers in the team? Six, seven, two grads. Yeah, wow. Yeah, it's some, yeah, pretty significant. I'm also also very, you know, proud to say that everyone in the group actually started off their careers here. So Matt was my article clock. Young called him a "clox" and what I still do. Gabbos as well. And so it's kind of grown organically, you know, over that 10-year period. Yeah, that's excellent. So nice to hear. It's also commented, I think we've heard about throughout the different episodes. Absolutely. I guess turning to you, Michael, in terms of your journey to this team and this area of the law, what drew you to it? Did you study competition, like the competition subject at uni? Because I think that's really like the sexy commercial elective subject. At least that's what I remember. And I did it. I really enjoyed it. So yeah, I guess with your comments background, was that relevant? Tell us about it. Yeah, so I did study the competition consumer at uni and I loved it. And that's always a good starting point to sort of see where the interest is at, but you learn so much in the job. So it's absolutely not at all a pro-requisite. I should have to say, department has a lot of IP work as well. Yeah. I didn't do any of those IP units at uni, that's only had no impact on me. And my ability to sort of fit in the team and do the work and everything else like that. It's good to hear. You learn so much on the job. Well, you learn on the job. So for example, if you've never done studied merger law or section 50 before in your entire life, if you're involved in a matter where you've got to give advice in relation to whether or not a acquisition or merger is going to offend against section 50, you learn it. And you'll learn more on the job than you'll learn a university. It's far more fun doing things in reality than in that hypothetical weird sort of scenario that you get in uni exactly. Counterfactuals so hard to conceive when it's not tangible to you. Yeah. I think what you do at uni, a lot of it necessarily isn't necessarily what you do in the day to day in your job or law firm. I know probably in like transactional groups in particular, it's very, very different to what you do at university. In the disputes team, there's maybe a bit more overlap in similarities, but what if you think of it at uni something necessarily going to be what it translates to in the job. But I guess that's what that was my starting point where I came from. Enjoy the unit, came to ABL to a clerkship, did in the competition team, really enjoyed it, enjoyed the breadth of the clients we have, the work we do. And what do you enjoy most about this area of law? Yeah, I think competition law in particular is it's a really interesting area of law that as Sabin was saying, it touches on so many aspects of trade and commerce and really interesting policy debates about the scope of competition law and where all that sits. So when we talk about competition law, we talk about regulating markets which are inherently dynamic and fluid and subject to a myriad of micro and macro factors, competitors competing on their merits, ensuring that competitors compete on their merits, where that sits. What is on their merits is it's a value judgment. There's always competing tensions there. So I think there's interesting policy aspects of it. You know, sometimes we will write submissions on some of those issues that come up from time to time. So I think that's a really interesting aspect of competition law. So for example, the H.R.O.C. is big on the moment in tightening up major reforms and we don't agree with everything they're saying. I think for example that the merger regime looks very well in this country. But on that point a few years ago, the Harper review into a string competition law took place. That was the biggest review that had been undertaken in this field for about 20 years. We were very, very heavily involved in running submissions. I think we made something like 11 various recommendations. Wow. A Harper commission, 10 of which were actually accepted. And I think we're noted in the ultimate report. That's another great example of ABL lawyers being advocates. It's not something that we'd expect. And I didn't expect when I was at university that as a practicing lawyer, I would actually be involved in advocating on behalf of clients for policy change and for legislative change. But I'm constantly amazed at how prevalent advocacy is here at ABL. Our listeners are about to embark on their legal careers. And I know Michael that you said that you'd studied competition law at uni. And obviously that's helped you to come in. But Zaven, from your perspective, is it a prerequisite to be a competition law to study? Not at all. I didn't. I knew nothing about competition law before I started. I taught it. Yeah. I was going to say, I had to learn it. Look at him now. I'll know. No, no, no, no. No, actually. Yeah. No, actually not. Like I said, you'll learn on the job in a lock quicker than you will by reading cases and attending lectures. That's very comforting because it's one of the reasons I didn't do a clerkship in the competition team when I. Yeah, when I was doing clerkships because I hadn't worked in competition law before. I hadn't studied it. I don't consume a law as part of contracts. But I was nervous that because you only get one opportunity to. Yeah. When it come in, you want to impress from day to day. I've got four weeks to make a count. You're nervous that if I don't know the ins and outs of every aspect of this law, I mean, I'm just going to. I mean, you're not from studying something like you're reading the cases, Natasha. But in real life, it's very, very different. I mean, you're dealing with the atropalcy. It's all about strategy. It's the way that you express things in writing. It's your advocacy. It's your ability to argue your position. And that's yeah. And then things that you don't learn when you're just following the reading guide at you or. No, yeah, no, I understand. And then similarly, in the IP space, so you've got quite a big reputation there, how did that come about? It sort of grew out of the competition practice, and it's also not surprising given the client base that we have, like particularly the retail clients. So, for example, if a competing fashion brand copies one of our clients, trademarks or Ripsoth, a pattern, a dress, etc, then in addition to claims that are based on copyright or breach of design, you've also got a claim from misleading accepted conduct, and they usually go hand in hand. So, I don't actually think that you can be a very good IP lawyer without knowing the competition because human laws. So, the IP practice really, really grew out of that. That makes sense. It's very interesting. Obviously, I love that thing. That's a lot of fun. Michael, I might just loop back to something you said earlier. And also, you said as well, Zabin, that the team's got three partners and a senior associate. So, for you, Michael, how's the experience working with the partners shaped and changed your development? Yes, I've worked for all three partners, pretty parallel to the equally, I'd say, over my two or years I've been here. I think it's important to have those different perspectives and different writing styles, different personalities that you can learn and often emulate and get inspiration from. I think at the end of the day, you want to be as spongy and as old as you can, but you have a lot of control and becoming the sort of lawyer that you want to become. And I think when you have those different perspectives, it's a lot easier to critically think about it and what that looks like and what you want to be. So, I mean, yeah, I could get a letter from one of the three partners in our team, and I wouldn't certainly know who wrote the letter. So, there's very different styles. So, who writes the best letters? No pressure. I was going to say, you know, Zabin, but then I realized the other two partners could also be listening to the podcast. So, I don't think there's a minute. I hope they don't play the case. No, no. Zabin will like send the Malink go to this particular kid boy. I think you can find this interesting. They're different styles, but there's different ways to do things and one's not better than the other necessarily. And I think that's important, is it you need to be able to learn from that and see that in action? So, you'll have to have different partners do things or other lawyers, and then you'll think, yeah, I like this bit. I like this bit from the other person, and you develop your own style. Yeah, actually. You learn a lot, but I was most of some of this job, which is why I always have like grads in my office when I'm talking to, you know, clients, if I'm talking to council, if I'm negotiating with another side, if I'm fighting with the commission. I think that's really important to the point that you just made, which is you learn by Osmosis that way. Even if I am just taking notes, it's being a part of it's hearing the way that you might address different clients, it's hearing the way that you'll discuss a strategy with council. It's also then learning what issues I should be thinking about and becoming aware of over time. Yeah. And you only get that from being in the room. Well, that's how I learned. I mean, like, you know, I was fortunate enough when I first started here that I was working not just with the the action partners and I was working with senior commercial partners. and property partners. And the learning curve here for me was enormous. And I think that's still the case with the genius at ABL as well. I mean, we took on two grads. They're already very heavily involved in our matters. They're not just research, they're attending meetings, they're going to access to barricades. They're in calls. They're involved. I'm having that visibility is so great, because it's the best way that you learn, and you take ownership. That's pretty much the model of ABL through all of the practice groups, four teams, flat structures. I remember in my first couple of weeks, there might be a month into being a grad, we had a massive trial. And Council had asked me to look at a number of cases on a particular point. So I put together a table of my, you know, the findings and the key principles. And then Council had called me direct. And I thought it must have been the wrong number. I was like, why am I getting a call on my mobile? And it was, Janie Council drafting our closing submissions, calling me to say, how I just want to step through your thinking on this, you know, line of authority. And I remember at the time just thinking, wow, like this is incredible. The opportunity, the responsibility. But then suddenly my instincts kicked in. And I went, oh, I've done the work. I know the principles. I can really easily talk about this. And we had this incredible discussion, you know, about what was going to be a key point in our submission. Well, that happened to you like a year ago. It's exactly what was happening to me like 30 years ago. Like it hasn't changed. It's ABL with training staff. It's so good to hear about the experience that you get as a grad. I think it'll be also good to hear from you, Michael. You know, you clarked at other firms. But what was it about your clerkship specifically at ABL that attracted you to come back as a grad? I think our team at ABL, the competition team, is a really unique offering. You know, the breadth of the practice area, the types of clients we work for, which we've, you know, touched on a lot through this, through this podcast. But that's a very unique offering that I probably didn't see anywhere else. So that certainly appealed to me. The SLT program is something that I often I'm talking to clerks. And I feel like this isn't promoted very much externally by the firm. I agree. And I actually think it is a huge selling point. And so many like prospective clerks, prospective grades, often are unaware that we even do the SLT program. So can I just stop there for a second? I think it might be beneficial for us to explain what SLT is for anyone who doesn't know. So when you finish your legal studies, you can either do PLT, which is practical legal training. And it's often completed through external providers. Or some firms, ABL being one of them, do SLT, which is supervised legal training, which is a combination of, on the job training, working, you know, with a supervisor on real matters, doing real work, and also in-house seminars, which are run by ABL partners and lawyers from each of the different practice areas on each of the different sort of areas of law. And then the benefit of SLT in addition to having sessions that are run in-house. So you know, it's happened if there's like a competition unit, then we'll do that with you. And so we hear about the practical experience and that goes for all of the different practice groups, which I really loved. And then also doesn't get enough air time. You don't have to do assignments. Well, you do like might have been one minor submission. You had to prepare. But a lot of it is sort of interactive. And that's a huge benefit when it's busy. It's not hard, it's very cool. Like in the competition sessions, for example, we talk about our actual cases. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what about for you, Michael, if you enjoyed that process? Yeah, I think it's a huge selling point. It's not just a box-taking exercise, which I mean, I haven't done PLT. A lot of my friends have spoken to. It's just about finishing those assignments and getting it done. Whereas I feel like the SRT program, because it's not that box-taking exercise. You actually go into it, looking to have meaningful conversations and ask proper questions. And it's not about getting that ticket in the day. It's about actually trying to grow and learn something out of it. And not learn those hypotheticals, but actually learn those examples of what's actually happened, what it actually looks like. Because that's really that PLT SRT program is meant to be about. Preparing you for what you actually can be doing in the day to day, which knows a lot of the stuff that you don't have the chance to learn at university, where you're more learning about the theory behind it. I think the SRT program is a big selling point. This is necessarily work for everyone. There's pros and cons to it. But I think, from my point of view, that it's absolutely the best way to go. One of the things I recall distinctly from my Clark ship was the work that you did, Zavin, to help return the copyright of renowned Indigenous artist, Albert Namajira, to the Namajira family. And the story itself is probably a podcast of its own. But it's such an incredible story. I wondered if you would be happy to share at least some of it with our listeners. Sure. How did it start? I think I was watching the 730 report or four corners one night. And there was a story on Albert Namajira. You might know he's probably the most famous Australian Indigenous artist who painted in the European style. He was known to the Queen. He visited Buckingham Palace, and he was very, very prolific. After he died, there were no executives to his will, essentially. And the public trustee of Northern Territory sold the copyright to his lifetime works to a private company for the princely sum of $8,000. That is extraordinary. That was back in the early 80s. Whereas under his will, he had expressly left all of that copyright to his family. So for a period of 30 years, his descendants were denied the benefit of royalties. So I was watching this show when I saw Kongolven, you see, a very preeminent IP barrister who I worked with many times in the past, and he was talking about the entire Namajira. But I hadn't met him in the next morning on another matter. And I said, Kongolven, why don't you tell me about this? We'd love to help. And he said to me that other firms have tried. It's very, very difficult. It's all sorts of issues, like statual limitation problems, witnesses that are died, a little that may have not been clear. And I said, look, let's give it a shot. Anyway, long story short is we wrote to the owner of the copyright. And I won't go into the substance of the correspondence but a few weeks later. You can tell by the look in your eye that he agreed to return the copyright to the family for the princely sum of the dollar. Wow. It was important because copyright is a finite thing. You've only got it for 75 years from the date of the death of the-- in this case, the artist. And so for that 30-period, the family would deny it all wrongties from the sale of the works with the republication of them. And so now that was a very, very good outcome. It was a really important outcome too, because there was this generation of Australians that grew up not knowing who Albert Namajira was. Like when I was in primary school, I did an assignment on him in the year six. But then by the time I got to high school, I noticed that he wasn't in any of the uphills. Because the owner of the copyright, which I didn't name, held on to it. And he wouldn't allow republication of the works in schoolbooks. He wouldn't allow the use of the imagery during the 2000 Olympics with Kathy Freeman open. He wouldn't permit quantists to depict the works on the error planes unless they paid like-- Yes. --orbit and fees. It's incredible because there was this generation of Australians that missed Albert Namajira. And it wasn't just getting back the copyright. Can you take us through what else you did? After that, we then entered into discussions with the Northern Territory Government because we felt that they had to answer for the disposal of the copyright for $8,000. Yeah. We came to a confidential settlement there whereby they agreed to donate an amount to the Namajira Foundation. And so the foundation, the family, is now in receipt of funds. And they have opened up a school, a painting school in Hermesburg, where Albert grew up and was doing a lot of his paintings. And you know, that was a very, very satisfying result. And it's a result which was achieved through strategy, through correspondence. There were all sorts of legal issues, difficulties, but we got there. And the outcome was reported internationally. It was one of those things that, like you always, kind of like you're very proud of. Such a great outcome. Before we let you go, we like to finish each of our episodes of the podcast with a game that we call the Fast 5. So it's 5 rapid fire questions, sometimes not so rapid fire responses. But that's fine. Let's go. What is the most rewarding part of being a competition lawyer? For me, it's the opportunity to work with clients in so many different industries. Yeah, I think it's just those little wins day to day that you get to have them as matters. Question two, what is your proudest achievement or best result for a client? For me, it's probably the return of Albert Namajira's copyright to the Namajira family. Pretty amazing. For you, Michael? Yeah, I said a little win before. I guess the big wins, I guess, when you're involved in the settlement of a big motto, and you can see the change will impact the. something you did had on that. I think that's a good outcome. - Yeah, next one. So if you could go back in time to graduation day, what advice would you give your former self? - I think for me, and I've touched on it a bit early in the podcast, I think just think critically about who you want to be as a lawyer and don't just go through the motions but actually think about, you know, why am I doing this? What do I want to do? Who do I want to be? And I think that'll clarify a lot of things, especially in the lead up to the Clarkshire process. - Great advice. - It's great advice. - For you, Zaven? - Just enjoy it. Have fun. You know, look out for new interests, new areas of law that you might want to practice in because ABL laws be supportive of anything that you're interested in pursuing. - Question four. If you could turn one non-legal hobby into a career, what would it be? - That's easy for me. I'd probably just review movies. - Oh! - Oh, interesting movie buffs. - What else was a movie buff? - Xavier from the Banking of Finance Episodes. - What do you say top five movies? - All right, Godfather One. Godfather Two. - Don't say Godfather Three. - No. Although that is underrated, Scarface. - Oh, well. - Goodfellas. - Yeah. - A singer thing. - Yeah, and the sound of music. - In that order? - Yep. Sound of music may be tool three. There's just something about it. - Something about it. - That's fantastic. Very surprising. I love that. - Michael? - Unless you're a hobby, but you're watching a similar sort of thing. You're watching a movie and the soundtrack or the score to the movie. The person who puts that together, I think that would be an awesome job. - Yeah. - You're going to be like, "It's so important." - It's so important to me. - It sets the tone. - Absolutely. - It tells you when to be scared. - The amount of times it's been driving along my car, it's into a song, and I can just picture the scene that'll be perfect in. - Okay, last one. What is your weakness at the ABL Cafe? - Yeah, just going there. Everything. - I feel like you walk through quite a bit. - Yeah, well, wow. - But you just is right next to you, don't you? - What do I do? - Yeah. - Why are you talking about that? - I can't really. - I can't really. - I can't pull my around. - Cross-hands and k-shirts and sausage rolls on a daily basis. - What about for your mind? - Restrain. - I love cinnamon scrolls, and they were Thursdays. When you know the day the week, it tends to come out. I think that's when you know you have a problem, but they're always harv them, and I'd always rush them. I can take two, because it's just one whole cinnamon scroll. - Can you make sure that the two halves actually were together originally? - Or like that? - They're true. - No. - Like are they identical twins or not identical twins? - They're going in my mouth. - That's really not. - I would look. - I love where they're going. We're learning a lot about both of you, which is great. Seven Michael, it's been so great speaking to you both and learning about the competition team. - Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. - Outro pleasure, thank you. - Thank you, Nat, thank you, Craig. - And as always, if you're interested in applying for a clock super graduate position at ABL, please visit the ABL website in the show notes. - And make sure you check out the next episode where we sit down with senior partner Mark Leibler AC and managing partner Henry Lanza AM. - But in the real world, it's a little bit different, because you're not only dealing with what the law appears to say in the books, in the statutes and in the cases, but you're dealing with human beings. And that always adds an additional dimension. And the more you understand that, the more likely it is that you'll come up with a creative solution when you've got a problem to deal with. - Until next time. - Bye. - Bye.