Comparing Yourself to Others, Solved

- You know, Drew, I think it's very appropriate we're doing this episode today. - Why is that? Little ironic, actually. So I came into the office this morning and for listeners who don't know, the podcasting data situation is a disaster. You would actually think for an industry that's exploding and growing so quickly, there would be a single dashboard somewhere that actually fucking measures who listens to a podcast and does it accurately, but apparently that's a lot to ask. And so long story short, we came to this realization that our audience was not quite as big as we thought it was. It's still very big to be clear, but you know, it's not quite as big as we thought and it's like instead of being one of the, I don't know, 50 biggest shows in the world, we're only like one of the 300 biggest shows in the world. But it was funny because I felt like, I like spent a good five minutes talking you off a ledge. - You did. - Yeah, I did. - I didn't even make this connection. - Yeah, you got me. It's such, but by the way, I've been there many times over the years, but it is such a, it's like such a ridiculous situation where it's like in your head, you're like, I thought we were as good as these other podcasts that were, you know, at the top 10 and doing all these like winning awards and all this stuff. And it's like, oh no, we're just, we're only the tier below. - Yeah. - You know, we're only one of the 300 biggest shows in the world and then you get really bummed out about it and you start feeling very insignificant and inadequate. - Just by that one little. - And basically the summary of this story is that being human sucks and it never stops. The comparisons never stop and there's no, there's no end to it. And I think that's why this episode needs to be made is how do we wrestle with that? How do we cope with this fact? You know, like I would say one of the single most common questions or problems or emails that I have gotten throughout my career is essentially boils down to how do I stop worrying about what other people think? Or how do I stop comparing myself to the people around me? And of course my answer is always you don't, you just change the nature of that comparison, you get better at managing those comparisons. And I guess we've already established two minutes into this episode that you and I are not immune to this as well. So we're all in the same boat folks and we're gonna do our best to help us all row back to shore. - So to speak, what say you? - Yeah. (laughing) - No, it is ironic that that's how we started the day off today. So yeah, but it's a very good example and can practice what we preach a little bit here. - Yes. We are gonna practice what we preach for regular listeners. This is one of the mid-month episodes. So this is gonna be a shorter episode, you know, only two to three hours. Like very light listening. - It's a little mini episode for you. - Yeah, just a little. - Yeah, mini episode. There's only, you know, only like 80 citations in the guide. So this is an important topic. It's a very universal topic. And like I said, it's one that comes up all the time. You know, we just did our large episode on friendship a couple of weeks ago. And then obviously a huge component of friendship or developing a social life is comparing yourself to others, worrying about your status. Do people like you? Are you good enough? Are you what to do when you're rejected? So we're gonna cover a lot of these topics in this episode. We're going to get a better understanding of why we seem doomed to compare ourselves to other people, no matter what we do, how to manage those comparisons, how to make better comparisons. And then of course, like what is the psychological purpose behind these comparisons? Like anything, I think if there's one thing that regular listeners discover with us, month after month, is that the things that cause us to suffer are actually quietly serving some sort of hidden psychological purpose, right? Like we can sit around and talk about how shame fucks up our lives and ruins everything. But what we learned in that episode is that actually shame serves a very practical purpose. And turns out, social comparison is no different now. And for those of you who are new to the show, my name is Mark Manson. I'm three times number one New York Times bestselling author. Don't you forget it. Better compare yourself to me. God damn it. This is my co-host producer, lead researcher, former academic Drew Bernie. And in the solve podcast, our goal is to go so deep, be so thorough, over research, everything so completely that by the time you get to the end of the episode, this area of your life will be solved. So just a reminder, every episode of solved comes with a free PDF companion guide. We have a full summary of the episode, cover everything that we talk about, give some practical takeaways and advice. And of course, show our work, give our citations, references, and follow up reading. So if you want that, go to solvepodcast.com/socialcomparison. (upbeat music) How do we want to start this, Drew? Maybe with just a pretty simple question. Like, why do we measure ourselves against others? And why does it always kind of have a sting to it? Or does it always have to have a sting to it? I guess, maybe the better question. Yeah. You know, we compare ourselves based on every, like, we find things. Yes. There's nothing you can compare yourself to, you find something, right? How much money you make, the partner you have, the house you live in, your, like bodies, we compare bodies all the time. Now we follow our accounts or likes, whatever it is on social media. On the one hand, this can be a very motivating, kind of emotional experience, right? On the other hand, it can be, like I said, a very tormenting experience as well, right? What's weird too is that even when we improve our situation, maybe we get a new job, we get a new partner, we get whatever, that moment we get that, we look around at what everybody else has at that time, right? It's really relative. Like social comparison is always relative. I remember like my grandma, she was born in the '30s. So grew up through the depression and stuff like that. And she would always say, you know, I guess we were poor when I was young, but nobody knew it because everybody was around us. And it's like comparing yourself to everybody, everybody was poor, we were fine. You know, that's where you get that. But there is, you know, there's research to show. You make more money. Say you're making $70,000 a year, sounds great, unless, you know, your best friends make a 90, right? If they're making 50, then you feel a little bit better about yourself. So this is all kind of relative in the 1950s, and we'll get into more of this research too, but there was this guy, Leon Festinger. He developed what he called social comparison theory, okay? Which basically described this whole phenomena, right? Like he described the tendency to compare ourselves to other people in relation to them. He described what we, some of the terms we're going to use through this upward comparison. It's like when you're looking up at somebody else is doing better versus downward comparison, looking at somebody else who's worse off than you. Interestingly, each one of the, it doesn't like, if you're comparing upward, you're not always jealous. Sometimes you're like, oh, it's motivating and inspired. And sometimes when you're looking down at someone, you're not always like, you know, don't just feel bad for him, you feel better about yourself. Of course. Maybe too. Of course. It could also lead to kind of some stagnation. We're like, well, I'm not as bad off as them, so I don't really have to do anything, right? So it's just, there's the human mind for you, right? In the nutshell, it's like we can, we can interpret anything anyway we want. Can ruin anything. We can ruin anything. The human mind can absolutely ruin anything. But, you know, there's other research that does show, that it is important though, because if you chronically experience kind of these, you're one down all the time. And if you interpret it that way, if you experience it that way, you're always kind of ranking lower than other people around you. I mean, that that's linked to like stress disorders, more stress hormones, you have more inflammation, even to like biomarkers show that, higher risk for things like depression and anxiety. Even in clinical context too, you see this, people with like anxiety or depression, usually have this very skewed way of comparing themselves to others in any other situation, usually leading to some sort of like, you know, either desperation or just you're giving up, because you don't see any point and you can't compete with the people around you, right? So this is a very like incredibly pervasive, incredibly comment. We do it all the time. We just do it naturally. Why do we do it that? Why, why, why? Like why do we have to torture ourselves like this so much? It's really a kind of wild question to even ask because it is so pervasive, right? Well, like we're like to do on solve, we like to go all the way back to the beginning. Let's go way, way, way back. But hundreds of thousands of not millions of years to our ancient ancestors, living on the savannahs, living in the forest, hanging out in trees, right? If you look at like primate societies, baboons and chimps and gorillas and all of that, they're obsessed with status, right? They're obsessed with where they're at in the hierarchy in the pecking water. And there's always these little games going on, right? It's the alpha, yeah. Exactly, exactly. That's not just kind of like these mind games that like came out of nowhere, right? There's actually a real evolutionary reason for that. Mother Nature produced this through natural selection because your social position in these hierarchical societies like this determines your access to food and to mates. and even protection from the group, like if you're liked by the group or not, if you're where you're at in the hierarchies, determines whether or not you get protection from an outside predator or something like that, right? It makes sense. There's a strong survival motivation behind all of that, right? Like if you're in a tribe, let's say you're in a tribe of 20 people, and you're able to gather twice as much food as everybody else. Right. Like obviously they should protect you first, right? Yeah, that's sense, right? So yeah, you can see how this would naturally evolve. There's got to be some machinery there to compare, right? Yes. Some kind. So that's where we talked in the friendship episode about Dumbar's number and his social brain hypothesis. And just to recap that real quick, if you didn't listen to that, the social brain hypothesis is that we develop these huge brains so that we can navigate these social situations. And a huge amount of your brain power, as we'll see, is dedicated to being able to compare. This person has more than me. That person doesn't have more than me. This person's higher in rank than me, or lower in rank than me. Huge, huge parts of your brain are dedicated just to that. So it's obviously very, very important. It's not just some random thing that Mother Nature accidentally did to us, right? It means that we are just predisposed to this social comparison. So Dumbar called it the social radar. It's basically our brains evolved as these social computers. They're constantly processing social information, environmental information, and figuring out where we stand. Because if you think about it, knowing where you stand in the hierarchy in the pecking order is absolutely also very important to survival. Like if you don't have a good sense, if you overestimate where you're at, if you think you're higher in the pecking order, you're probably going to challenge like an alpha or an alliance that you shouldn't be doing. On the flip side, if you underestimate, then you are probably missing out on opportunities within the social group to either advance or secure more resources or more mates or whatever it is, right? And so it's actually really, really important that you can accurately assess where you stand and do that through comparison, right? But that's why your brain is such a relative comparison machine. It looks around you not just like in absolute terms, oh, I better my situation. But if somebody else around you was doing better, then I mean, in ancient times that was a survival mechanism. - A ton of sense, right? Like if you're not the person who's able to gather twice as much food, you don't want to imagine that you are, because then you're going to start demanding special treatment from people and they're going to get pissed off and it's going to cause a lot of social disarmony. The thing that's super interesting about this, and a point that I want to make, is this all happens on a very unconscious level. This is extremely innate to our psychology, to our, just the way our brain is wired. - It's part of human nature, yeah. - It is involuntary and it is very much the basis of how we operate within the world. I do want to bring up the point that like the notion of equality, the notion of, I guess, a status-free existence or the fact that everybody is on an equal plane field and everybody, every life is just as valuable as every other life. That is a very modern invention. That is something that arguably has only existed in the last 2000 years and really only become popular or predominant in the last couple hundred years. So this kind of, you know, rainbows and unicorns, like, hey, we're all equal, we're all in this together, we all deserve the same thing. I think philosophically, that it can be very true, but that's just not the way we're designed or wired. - Right, like it's just not how we evolved. - Yeah. - There's a lot of tension there and I just want to point that out because I think a lot of why people struggle with this is that they're like, well, you know, why can't we all just get along and be happy and respect each other and like, everybody's different but everybody's got their own talent and like, why can't we just celebrate each other? Again, kind of like a rosy, idealistic picture. I think it's a great intention, but that's not, like hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, like that was not what was most adaptive to the environment. I think it's only really been adaptive to the environment and then the last century. - Yeah, so I'd take it even one step further. So there's the psychologist Paul Bloom. If he's talked about this before, but in tribal societies, even modern ones too, but in the past in particular, tribal societies that do exhibit some form of egalitarianism, very egalitarian, precisely because they are so obsessed with status. If somebody's getting a little too big for their bridges or something like that, there's these incredibly powerful mechanisms, group mechanisms that they use to put them back in line. That's kind of like the other set of it too. Like, oh yeah, you can have an egalitarian society by being obsessed with a status within the group. - Which tracks. - Yeah, 100% tracks. - Which tracks, yeah. - I mean, it's funny because when you read about, you know, like these hippie communes, like the 60s and 70s are like the communist experiments and this former Soviet Union or Southeast Asia are like powerful enforcement mechanisms. - They are the most status obsessed people. - Yeah. - The most, like they are constantly obsessed with status because you have to constantly be thinking about status to cut everybody down to the same size. - Yeah. - So it is a little paradoxical. - Yeah, absolutely is. Goes back to that social brain hypothesis though, there's so much brain power and energy we spend on this kind of thing because it's just, in our evolutionary past, it was that important. Now that said, you know, the modern versions of this do cause a lot of kind of internal torment like we've already talked about. If you're obsessing over status in groups that you're really not even a part of, which is kind of what we do a lot of these days, that's not super healthy. Or, you know, we channel this into like career aspirations or something where, and you know, we've talked about how we're very bad about predicting what's going to make us happy, but we're just running on this software that says, you need to achieve and compare yourself and, you know, that's where we run into trouble with it. - Yeah. - The other thing I want to bring up the two in this is, you know, we evolved this kind of whole emotional tool kit around this too. Again goes to show the social brain hypothesis, just how much we dedicate, just how much brain space and mind space we dedicate to this. There's all these emotions that we have around regulating status or comparison. I kind of group them into three different categories. You have like the status promotion emotions, you have status protection and repair emotions, and then you have status stabilizing and hierarchy ones. I can just kind of rifle through some of these, but, you know, emotions like pride, envy, admiration, moral indignation, those are kind of status promoting emotions that we have. You think about pride, you know, if you're proud of something, you kind of, you're gonna signal back to other people. And that's an attempt for you to kind of up your status within a group, right? Envy, even though it's typically thought of as a kind of a negative emotion, which it is, that is kind of serve as a similar purpose where you're at least striving. You're like, "That person has this, I want that." How do I get that, right? And there's the flip side of that, maybe the more positive is like admiration for the power of somebody, right? - It's funny 'cause I feel like there is a thin line between envy and admiration. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll get into that, I think. But the, yeah, yeah, so like status protection, you have shame, guilt, you know, we did the shame episode, embarrassment, humility, those are status protection or repair emotions. You do something that would lower your status within a group. If you show those emotions, it's more likely, "Oh, people are more likely to be a little more empathetic to you and you preserve some status there." - Mm-hmm. - The stabilizing ones are contempt and gratitude. If you, if contempt for others, it marks a norm violation within the group and you're trying to bring 'em down a peg, whereas gratitude, you're, again, you're showing admiration for somebody else in that situation as well. So that's kind of the foundation anyway, the kind of evolutionary reasons for why we are so obsessed with comparing, or is it, we just can't help by comparing ourselves to other people, right? - It's interesting, I'm looking at the status promotion emotions, the status protection emotions. Like if you look at the status promotion of emotions, pride in the indignation moral outrage, if you think about people who are kind of chronically experienced those emotions, like it's a very, it's very much kind of like a grandiose narcissist. Like a grandiose narcissist is like proud about everything he does. Extremely envious of anyone who's like performing better and often experiences indignation and moral outrage. And then the status protection emotions are I think kind of vulnerable narcissists, chronically experienced them. So they're constantly ashamed. They constantly feel guilty of everything. They feel constant the sense of embarrassment or that they're marginalized, just made that connection. I'm shooting from the hip on that one. - No, that's a good one. - Coming in hot. - Yeah, yeah, no, that's really good. I think it's absolutely right. And you take into their extremes, that's what happens. - Yes. - And so that's a point to keep in mind as well. You could almost look at those two, they're kind of like broken status management systems. - Yeah. - All of that is to say that you can't escape this. Okay, this is part of our nature. We have to learn how to work with it. That's what I wanna set up the whole episode with that. Comparison isn't necessarily a flaw. - Yes. - Okay, it's just, it's innate. We have to deal with it. We have to learn how, you know, there's a good way to handle it. and there's a bad way to handle it. And that's what the rest of this toilet is that's gonna be about. - Yes, we're actually gonna get into all of the benefits of social comparison in this episode as well, which definitely don't get the air time that goes up. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. - Yeah. - All right, Drew, so given how universal of an experience social comparison is, how innate it is to our human nature, it is no surprise then that philosophers across the world and all cultures have been wrestling with how to manage social comparison. And this is, I think this is an interesting subject because it's a case where East and West differ, pretty broadly in terms of like, usually what we see is there's a quite a bit of overlap between Western philosophy and Eastern philosophy or at least like kind of slightly different takes on the same conclusion. In this case, there's a wide diversion, I think. And I'm gonna start with the East, which is Confucianism and Buddhism. So Confucianism, really from what I can tell, and I'm not definitely not as well read on Confucianism as I am on a lot of other philosophies, but from what I can tell Confucianism really just decided to own it and was like, look, there's a status hierarchy. Some people are better than you and some people are worse than you and that's okay, you should get along with everybody and you should just do your best to move up and down the hierarchy. Confucianism is very much based on a framework of five types of relationships and four of those relationships involves some sort of hierarchy or status attainment involved, whether that's through your parents or your family or some sort of authority figure. - Right, the one that didn't was friendship, right? - Correct. - The ideal friendship though, which, correct. - Doesn't always work that way, but yeah. - And the idea behind this is that ultimately, wherever you are on the hierarchy, you have a role to play. And it is, you contribute to the overall social harmony that it's even if you are scrubbing the floor somewhere you serve an important purpose and you need to fulfill that purpose and you need to do your work and be diligent and contribute to society and that just happens to be your role. So it's a little bit more fatalistic, I think, than a lot of Western thought. - You often see these videos or you read articles and stuff where I would just call it like kind of anti-Chinese porn. Like sometimes you'll see these takes that are just like, "Wow, can you believe how they do it in China?" And it just feels as an American, it just feels so foreign, different and likely. - Right, right, yeah. - And also unethical, right? - You know, when you kind of understand the Chinese culture and or if you read a little bit about Chinese culture and understand their history and the history of Confucianism and just like the kind of the moral order that Chinese and Eastern people see themselves in, like a lot of those arrangements make a lot more sense. Another way to think about it is that the Confucianism take is like your individual comparison like doesn't really matter that much. Like yes, some people are better than you, but who cares? You have a role to play and like do your job well and respect your elders and respect the authorities and do your best, essentially. Buddhism, on the other hand, really, I think of all the philosophies, I think Buddhism really struggles with this the most. It's Buddhism, obviously the basis of Buddhism is a non-attachment and comparison is very mature form of attachment. Like when you compare yourself to another person and you decide like wow, she has such pretty hair. I wish I had pretty hair or wow, that guy makes a lot of money. I wish I made a lot of money. A Buddhist would say that you are attaching your happiness to some external illusion and not reality itself that everything that you compare yourself to is an illusion ultimately. And so the more you invest yourself into those comparisons and attachments, the more you're just going to invite more duke or suffering into your life. Now, the Buddha did preach a concept of mudita, which is basically a sympathetic joy or I guess what we would call like a compassion or a happiness for others. So the idea is that anytime you are socially comparing yourself to somebody else, somebody's doing better than you, somebody who has something that you don't, you envy something and others, that is an opportunity to be happy for that person, which sounds nice, right? Yeah. But like honestly, like how practical is that? So those are kind of the two primary Eastern schools of thought. In the West, I'm going to give you one guess who kind of nailed this first. You know, just based on literally every episode we've ever done on this whole fucking show. What was it? Who do you think nailed this? What's it, Aristotle? Oh, it was Aristotle once again. I'm real good. You know, guys, maybe you should just go read it into knocking ethics and like skip the podcast 'cause it's kind of feeling that way at this point. Yeah. Aristotle, as usual, nailed it and he nailed it before anybody else did. So Aristotle, in his work called The Politics, he declared that humans are what are known as a zoo on politicon, which is a political animal, which again, he rightly identified that this is just an inherent part of our nature. The same way a bird flies and a fish swims, we compare ourselves to each other. That's just how humans are. And to live well, we have to navigate the delicate art of comparing ourselves while living within a community. And so for Aristotle, this meant finding a moral or virtuous form of comparison. So basically, Aristotle argued that there are two forms of comparison. One, he called Phthonos, that's Ph.T.H.O.N.O.S, which essentially translate the N.V. And then there's Zalos, which is emulation. And this, I think loosely, we could qualify as toxic and healthy comparison. So at the toxic comparison, it's just pure N.V. in jealousy and greed. It's like, you have a thing I want. Therefore, I hate you until I get it. Whereas Zalos or the emulation is, wow, you have done a bunch of things that I want to do. That's really inspiring. Maybe I can learn from you. Maybe I can act like you. Maybe I can do things that you've done so I can experience the same benefits. Now, in the rhetoric, Aristotle wrote, emulation is a good feeling and belongs to good men. N.V. is base and belongs to bad men. That's very deep. (laughing) That's like, I could have been Dr. Seuss, I'm pretty sure. (laughing) I'm very sure in holiday, yes. He wrote that. But in modern psychology, this is what we would today call in social comparison theory. This is what would be referred to as a maladaptive form of social comparison versus an adaptive form of social comparison. So basically, a maladaptive form of social comparison is a form of social comparison that makes you feel worse, that makes you more anti-social, and that decreases your mental health or your ability to achieve something. Whereas an adaptive form of social comparison is something that inspires you, motivates you. Maybe it's a role model. Maybe it's somebody you look up to. Maybe it's somebody you want to emulate or replicate the great things that they've done. And I guess this really gets into the unsung aspect of social comparison theory, which is obviously the dark side is something that we experience all the time. That's why it gets talked about all the time. It's why a bajillion people email me and ask like, how do I stop comparing myself to others? Whereas what goes unsung is the fact that everybody who has inspired you, everybody who has motivated you, every role model you've had, every person you've looked up to as a young person, every mentor that you've had, that is also a form of social comparison. That is also somebody that you have looked at and you have compared yourselves to them, and you have said, I wanna be like that. What's fascinating is I think that the root of what makes social comparison adaptive versus maladaptive, it is the perception that you are capable of replicating what they've done. So I think a maladaptive form of social comparison is very zero sum, right? It's like, okay, you own the Ferrari. I wanna own a Ferrari. There's only so many Ferraris in the world. So if you have one, that means I, there's a less chance I'm gonna have one. So fuck you, I'm gonna take your Ferrari. Whereas an adaptive form of comparison is I think positive sum. It's like, you've done great things. That actually is evidence that I can do great things too. It doesn't diminish the chance that I'm gonna do great things. In fact, the fact that I know you means I'm more likely to do great things. So I'm so excited that I get to know you and hang out with you and learn from you and all that stuff. - That's a lot harder to put into like a pithy little quote, though, right? Like, comparison is a thief of joy, right? That's one of the Roosevelt supposedly said that. I don't remember which one, but how do you put that? Well, if you're aiming up at somebody who is, you know, you admire and how do you, there's just no way to put that into the next level, you know what I'm saying? - It's funny too, 'cause I also think social comparison it's such a bad rap because I think we generally, the maladaptive form of comparison, like the comparison that feels bad, I think it tends to be very conscious. Like we're very aware of it, right? When we feel bad about it, whereas all the positive forms of it, I think we do unconsciously. So if you think of a mentor in your career or something, you're probably not thinking consciously of like how you're comparing yourself to them. You're probably just like so grateful, like I'm glad this person's helping me. I'm glad I have somebody to look up to, somebody to reach out to. - Yeah, and she shows up in your motivation, not in your assessment of the whole situation. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So for Aristotle, ultimately, comparison, social comparison, it's not a moral failure, it's actually a moral opportunity. And Aristotle argued that a megalo psychos or a great-sold person is somebody who is mature enough to only compare themselves for the right reasons and in the right ways to basically find something honorable and admirable about each person that they compare themselves to and then use that as inspiration or motivation to improve themselves. That was essentially Aristotle's take, which psychology is kind of backed up, but on the other hand, psychology is also based in Western philosophy, which was basically invented by Aristotle, right? So there is an argument that there's a lot of circularity going on here, but I guess as Western individuals, who have grown up swimming in the water of Western philosophical thought, it certainly makes sense to me. And this is certainly like the perspective I've always had on social comparison, that it's an A, it's inevitable and B, you can do it well and you can leverage it to improve yourself and not hurt yourself. - I think there was a little bit in Confucian thought, though, too, of that, right? There was a conscious choosing of who you surround yourself with. Right, so there is some of that as well. - Yeah, so to be clear, Confucianism, it's big on relationships, it's big on harmony and while it's fatalistic about the hierarchy piece, I think the key difference is that Western thought seems to say you can climb as far as you want on the higher, like anybody's capable of climbing that hierarchy, whereas I think Confucian thought is a little bit more like, look, your parents are always going to be your parents and you better fucking respect them and obey them. And there's nothing you're ever going to do that's going to like surmount that or overcome that and similar with like a lot of authority positions. Like it's just, this is the way it works, you know, get used to it. - I think for a long time that Western thought was kind of like that, still, too, right? I remember going back like the great chain of being have you ever heard of that? And like ancient Western thought, there was this great chain of being, which is very similar to the Confucius kind of hierarchy. Like there's a place for you in society and it's against God if you don't perform those rules and duties your father was a cobbler, that means you're a cobbler and you just keep the great chain going. I think it's more of a modern invention of Western thought that it's like the climbing, yeah. - I think the seeds were planted definitely by like Aristotle. - I think, and not to get on to too much of a diversion. You know, we talked about this a little bit in the procrastination episode, but like, the history of Western philosophy is really fascinating because a lot of this stuff originated with the Greeks and Romans went away with the fall of the Great Empire, that kind of buried or overridden. And in the case of Aristotle was lost to Europe and was preserved by Arabic and Middle Eastern cultures. And then only re-entered European culture in the 13th century. - Yeah, yeah. - And actually Thomas kindness saved basically salvaged Aristotle. Like he was, he was the one who came across Aristotle and was like, this is incredible. We need to find a way to make this kosher with, you know, the clergy and the Pope. - Ah, okay. - And then that was kind of his great work was like taking Aristotle and thought and then translating it in such a way that the church wouldn't banish it. - Interesting, okay, yeah. - Like they had banished everything else. - Yeah, okay, that makes sense. - So shout out to Thomas kindness. So that's my boy, that's my boy. You know, saving Aristotle from the clergy, my man. (laughing) So then we get to the Stoics. The Stoics are super interesting around this because obviously this, you know, the Stoic case here is just like, don't compare yourself to it. Like that's kind of the Stoic line. Don't compare yourself to others. Compare yourself to your past self. Or compare yourself to your ideal self. Like that's the ideal, yeah. That line of thought very much originates or it was at least popularized by the Stoics. The irony here is that some of the most popular Stoics were like racked with envy and insecurity around comparisons. Which I think there's an interesting tangent here that we could go on, but, you know, if you read Seneca's letters, second richest man in Rome, favored by the emperor, you know, part of the aristocracy. And he's just like completely insecure about his status at all times. He's worried about, is he doing enough? Is he powerful enough? Is he being listened to? It's super fascinating. And then you get a similar thing with Marcus Aurelius in Meditations. He's incredibly concerned and insecure about his place in history. How he's going to stack up to other emperors and how he's going to be remembered and what his legacy's going to be. And if like any of the people in his court or any of his subjects are actually going to appreciate all the things he did for him, I find it fascinating that arguably the two most powerful philosophers, maybe ever. Where it's some ways the most insecure, like they seem the most worried about this. Whereas you get somebody like Epictetus who was literally a slave who called comparison the disease of the soul. So I don't know. I thought that was interesting, very interesting. Yeah. And then finally moving up to modern day, we get the existentialist, which as you know, I'm a huge fan of. Sart actually wrote quite a bit in being a nothingness about he called it the look. Simone de Beauvoir like actually popularized it more of like being othered or becoming the other or like the verb version of being the other. And basically Sart's point about it is that it's our awareness that were observed that creates like forces us to create a conception of ourselves in our own mind. Which I think I believe this predates, I believe Sart predates the developmental psychology is like discovery of theory of mind and everything. So I think he was correct about this like multiple decades before psychologists eventually caught up and found the same thing. But it's basically once you become aware that you're being observed by other people, you as a form of survival necessity, you start developing an identity for yourself. You start constructing an identity for yourself. To as a form of self-preservation as a way of like, okay, if other people are seeing me and they have a conception of who I am, quote unquote, then I need to have a conception of who I am, quote unquote. I guess the kind of revolutionary insight from Jean Paul Sart and the existentialist in general is that like everything, okay, yes, you have to compare yourself to others. You have to be aware of the otherness of your otherness to the people who are observing you, but you still get to decide what that means. You get to decide, you are naturally gonna compare yourself to the people around you. You are naturally gonna go into the be envious of people who are more successful of you and maybe a little bit resentful or arrogant towards the people who are less successful of you. That's all gonna happen, but what Sart says is, you get to decide if it means anything or not. You can choose if that actually defines who you are or if you're gonna define yourself by some other means. - Yeah, and there's a lot of religious traditions too that have something around, a lot of times I'll call it the fall, like in the Bible, the story of Adam and Eve, then becoming self-aware. - Right. - Right? - Yes. - Where you go in there, sorry, where is it? - No, no, no, no, no, I just got exciting 'cause you're 100% right. - Okay, yeah, yeah. This happens through not just in Christianity, but it's a lot of different religious traditions where they have this idea of what they call them the fall. - Yes. - Right? Which is in some way we've become aware, self-aware. - Yes. - Only through relation of, through other people, right? We only know who we are in relation to other people. And for so many religions, that's the point at which we fall. We've fallen from God's grace or from the purity that we once knew before that. So, yeah, I think that's true. - The blissful ignorance of not knowing the separation between self and society. - Right, like in society. - Like when they became self-aware, they realized they were naked and then all sin flowed out of that, right? - Right. - I think the exact words in the Bible are something around that of like, they became aware that they were being seen and suddenly became ashamed. - Right. - Which psychologically speaking is pretty accurate. - Right, right, right, that's one side of it, man. - Yeah, yeah, for sure is one side of it. - You know, as we've talked about, like we talked about in the shame episode, it's only as the conception of separate self-emerges and childhood that we start processing and understanding all the ways in which we're inadequate we don't live up right or that we we must hide our ourselves, right? And so yeah, it's just super interesting. Yeah. I do want to touch on a couple myths before we move on. These are just common beliefs and assumptions that a lot of people have around social comparison that are not necessarily true. So the first myth is that there's some level of wisdom or enlightenment or success that you stop comparing yourself to others. There is no evidence of that. In fact, I find it very amusing how much like pop spirituality and pop self-help. When you actually look at what they idealize, it's basically just being a psychopath. Yeah. They're pedaling this idea. It's basically like, I never care what anybody think. Only do what I want. I am like completely confident myself at all times. And I'm a self-contained miracle. Exactly. And it's like there are no repercussions or trade-offs to any of my behaviors. It's like, well, you know, yeah, that's actually what a psychopath believes. And things don't turn out well for them generally speaking. Yeah. It's funny too, because I mean, it's this is something that you see, if there is a form of enlightenment, I think what it is is probably more of what like SART describes in being a nothingness, which is like you're aware of the comparison. You feel the comparison, but you don't necessarily identify with comparison. You choose not to make it meaningful. I know like the Dalai Lama has said stuff around this before. Like, it's funny, because sometimes you'll see the Dalai Lama get interviewed by like a journalist and they're like, are you ever sad? And he just like laughs at them. He's like, yeah, of course I'm sad. Like all the time. You know, but he's like, sadness is still beautiful in its own way. And I'm still like, just because you feel something doesn't mean it's true. It doesn't mean it's meaningful. It doesn't mean it's permanent. Like I think, you know, what the Dalai Lama exemplifies is that, yeah, he's very human, but those he the thing that's unique about him is his constant awareness of how transitory his humanness is. That's the that's the real wisdom. Right. Like he feels sad, but he understands like, oh, this isn't going to last. Right. Right. Don't don't buy into it too much. It is funny, though. Like, I mean, as you know, I was very much in the Buddhism in my 20s and I did a lot of retreats and meditated pretty seriously for a while, read a lot of books. And one of the things that I think kind of turned me off from it is I noticed that the more I got into it, the more the Buddhist practice itself turned into another status game. So what I noticed is that I started becoming attached to how well I could detach from other areas of my life. Like, how much was I meditating? How equanimous was I feeling on a regular basis? And I noticed it in some of the other the other students that were like really getting into it as well. They're like, you know, they they started kind of measuring their own self worth in terms of like how many retreats were they doing and how much they were working with the teacher and all this stuff. And I was like, isn't this exactly what we're trying to get away from? Like, are we just kind of signing up for the same race? But just look how little ego I have. Exactly. I have less ego than you. No, I have less ego. There were just very subtle whists of of envy and comparison showing up even, you know, in a zen retreat. That's how pervasive it is. I mean, even when you when you spend your whole life trying to detach from it, you still find little little nicks and crannies to attach to. Yeah. It never completely goes away. It really never does. So second myth is that comparison always harms us. I think we already covered this. But one thing that you do see across all of these philosophies and schools of thought is that comparison is always an opportunity for something good. In Buddhism, it's an opportunity for greater compassion and joy for others. In Confucianism, it's an opportunity to improve relationships and social harmony. With Aristotle, it's an opportunity to improve yourself and inspire yourself. It's not necessarily a bad thing. And I think it is probably useful to sit and think about all the ways that social comparison has actually been useful for you in your life. And then the final myth that I think you see pop up quite a bit is that the only way to be free of comparison is to isolate yourself. And this is a little bit hardcore, but you see this quite a bit of people who, you know, go off grid. They go out to the countryside. They get rid of all their devices. They delete all their online accounts. I'm not going to participate in society. Right. And it's because I don't want to compare myself to everybody else, like that comparison disease that I have. Yeah. And it's it's a cancer out type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think it would be interesting sometimes to meet or talk to a person like that and like see if they struggle, how much they still struggle with it. You know, it's interesting. We did a YouTube video with a guy. So there's a guy it's guy named Brent Underwood who he's used to work with Ryan Holiday or still works with Ryan Holiday a little bit. And he bought a ghost town out in the middle of the valley in California. Yeah. And so we drove out there. He's been living out there for like two or three years now. I think mostly by himself a few people come in and out of the town. But he's basically in this like abandoned ghost town. It used to be a silver mine. He owns the whole thing. It's pretty run down. But he's been up there by himself probably for the majority of last three years. And we went up there and shot a YouTube video with him. And it was actually love that video. Like it was very, it came out very philosophical and very kind of meditative. He's a very interesting, well-spoken guy. But it's funny because like one of the first things he told me when I interviewed him, he said he's like anybody watching this who thinks that like running off to the middle nowhere is going to solve your problems. He's like, let me just tell you it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't at all. It's more. He said some of them. It makes some words. He's like, you know, it helps some of them. But it makes others of them worse. And I think in this case, you know, cutting yourself off from things, you're not necessarily solving a problem. You're probably just replacing one problem with another, which is the trade-off here is the more isolated you become, the more the more lonely you're going to feel. And so you pick your poison. Do you want to feel lonely and isolated or do you want to struggle with insecurity of having to be around others? Right. Right. Isn't life grand? I saw some of this slightly tangential but I saw something recently where a guy, he tried to go out and make his own chicken sandwich from absolute scratch. I've seen this one. It's amazing. Six months and $1,500. It's amazing for a chicken sandwich. Right. The point though is is that we're as humans, we are very socially interdependent. That's like part of our nature as well. That's where this comparison comes from. And so it's not about getting rid of it. It's learning how to manage it more. That's the point we keep hammering on. I know. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And look, I mean, we're going to talk about digital stuff later. Yeah. Yeah. There is something to be said if you feel overwhelmed by comparison or if you are, say, surrounded by assholes, which one of that I think that defining characteristics of an asshole is that they encourage or promote unhealthy forms of comparison. Yeah. It's forced them on you. Yeah. If you find yourself in those situations, then sure, cutting yourself off temporarily or in some areas of life can make sense. Yeah. But ultimately, like, I mean, as you and I keep coming back to episode after episode, there is probably nothing in the psychological literature of over 100 years of research and study and clinical practice more consistently replicated and proven over and over again that happiness is relationships. Essentially, like that's that is kind of the short version. If you were to distill all of psychological knowledge down into a phrase, it would probably be happiness is good relationship. Yeah. Again, you can't know who you are except in relation to other people and that necessitates comparison. Well, we're just about to get into that. Let's get into. Let's get into. So talking about the psychology of comparison, social comparison, the exact same achievement can feel like a triumph or a total failure and it all comes down to who you're standing next to. So there's an interesting thing known as the silver metal paradox, which is that basically when when you go survey Olympic athletes who just want a metal, what you consistently find is that the happiest person is the guy who won the gold medal. The second happiest person is the person who won the bronze medal and the least happy person is the person who won the silver. Which is kind of sick and twisted, but it makes sense. Obviously, the gold medal winner is thrilled. The bronze medal winners throw because they got a medal. They were this close that just not even being on the podium. Whereas the silver medalist is like, man, if I just pushed a little harder, I didn't fuck up that one turn. If my form was a little bit better, I could have gotten the gold. Right. And I think this is illustrative of the problem and also why in house psychology has just been trying to attack for over a century. How do we compare ourselves better? How do we make more? If we're doomed to compare ourselves to others, and if we're doomed to constantly be dissatisfied with what we have or what we've accomplished, how can we do this better? So it starts. starts in the 1890s with a researcher named Norman Triplett, and he noticed something that is probably pretty obvious to us today, which is that he noticed that when people cycled together, they tended to ride faster, overall as a group. And sure enough, you see this replicated all over the place. When you do things together with other people, you tend to do them better, you do them longer, you do them faster, you do them further, you do them more consistently. And that's simply because we're competitive. We like being, we like impressing other people. Again, another advantage of social comparison that is largely unconscious and we largely don't think about. I've noticed this this year myself where, you know, for a number of years, when I got in the running, I always ran by myself. And I really just ran to like improve my own times. I wasn't really training for anything, I wasn't really doing anything with it. And then this year, I started signing up for various races and endurance events and stuff with friends and people. And it's crazy how much more motivation it gives you. So I'm doing this thing called a high rocks, about a month from now. And it's a crazy endurance thing like Google it, it's wild, it's a lot, I don't even know why I'm doing it. Actually, I do know why because two friends of mine signed up for it and they like challenged me to do it with them. And it's funny because it's a thing that if I had been on my own, I would have rolled my eyes. I know I rolled my eyes because I remember the first time I heard about it. I remember looking at it and being like, why on earth would anybody put themself through this? This is just stupidest thing. And then jump ahead six months in a couple of buddies and invite me and I'm like, oh, dude, I'm in. And like, of course, what's the first thing I think about? I'm like, I'm going to totally crush them. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to train. I'm going to get a plan. I'm going to like fix my nutrition. And then I'm going to fucking crush these guys. And it's fun. Yeah. It's fun. It's exciting. Let's get more interesting. I'm more motivated each day. Like the days I don't want to go work out, I force myself to go work out. Why? Because I'm thinking about like, yeah, I don't want to show up for the high rocks and be the weakest link. So again, there is an unconscious advantage to this, an advantage that goes largely goes unnoticed. Another one I found of this too was really interesting is Olympic sprinters when the female Olympic sprinters trained with the men, they actually had better times. Wow. Which was pretty good. Pretty wild. That's crazy. Isn't that wild? That's so interesting. Yeah. I mean, again, like a comparative, there's the, I mean, they're highly competitive people. Yes, of course. And so they're going to try harder in the situations where there's somebody who's better than them, faster than them, whatever it is, but yeah, they found that pretty consistently as well. So then the question of, you know, how do you make sure you leverage this in a positive way and not a negative way because we've all had the experience where like competitiveness has kind of turned against us or become unproductive and unnecessarily adversarial? Definitely. Yeah. And William James, look, often considered the father of psychology, put together an equation that tried to analyze this. And I think it's, it's a nice equation. He basically said that self-esteem equals success divided by pretensions. Another way of thinking about that is that your self-esteem is equivalent to your what you've achieved or accomplished divided by your expectation of what you can achieve and accomplish. So generally speaking, people who have a very low self-esteem, they either have unreasonable expectations of what they should be doing, which you see this a lot, people, a lot of depressed people or miserable people, they think they should be able to do everything and accomplish everything and be the best at everything. And they just drive themselves crazy. And then also, you need to have actually gotten out and done something that you feel good about. You feel a little bit, coming back to the status protective emotions, something that you feel proud of, that you're proud to wear on your identity as a badge or build your identity around as a badge. Now, for William James, he rightly observed that our identity is largely based on how other people see us. It's very influenced by other people's perceptions of ourselves. And this can be both a good thing and a bad thing, right? Like if a lot of people admire you, then it will cause you to feel good about yourself and that can be a very healthy thing. Like it can create a virtuous cycle, right? Like it's like, okay, people respect me, they expect a lot out of me, therefore I should expect a lot out of myself, therefore I become more likely to do great things. And it can also work against you, right? If you feel like people don't like you or they have low expectations of you or they don't expect much of you, it can cause you to have low expectations for yourself. And then, of course, you're less likely to go do great things or improve yourself. So James basically saw this, I guess you could call it a golden mean, right? You don't want people who inflate your ego too much and cause you to be delusional. Right? Tell you that your shit doesn't stink and you're amazing at everything you do. But at the same time, you know, you don't want the expectation to outweigh the achievement, but at the same time, you don't want people to diminish you or disrespect you or make you feel like you have no achievements at all. So there's somewhere in there, there's a happy medium. So it wasn't until Leon Fessinger in the 1950s with social comparison theory. These, he really took what William James discovered and posited and tried the ad structure around it and tried to really define like, okay, what is good comparison? What is bad comparison? What is too much of each one? And this is where we get the upward comparison and the downward comparison, as you mentioned before. You know, so the upward comparison is when you compare yourself to somebody that you perceive as being superior or better to you in some way. And there's a healthy and unhealthy form of upward comparison. So a healthy form of upward comparison would be inspiring, motivating. You'd be able to learn from them. Maybe they're a role model, maybe they're a mentor, maybe they're somebody you look up to, an unhealthy form of upward comparison would be somebody who just is, you perceive as being so good and so great and so perfect that it causes you to feel worse about yourself. What's interesting here is that this gets a little bit back into what we talked about on the resilience episode in terms of self-affixing. Yeah, yeah. So like, when it comes to upward comparison, it really seems like the key ingredient is the perception that this person you're comparing yourself to, that what they have is attainable for yourself, right? So if you look at somebody and you've decided that they are so perfect and so great and there's nothing you can ever do to be like them, then you're going to feel worse about yourself. But if you look at that person and you think, wow, they did it, I think I can do it too. Then it's actually going to motivate you and inspire you and that's super interesting. It's funny too because I also think it's interesting so there's something like it doesn't explicitly get talked about, right? But it's a lot of times famous figures or public figures and they get talked about as role models. They often get talked about as role models because of their gender, their ethnicity, their race, their sexual orientation or whatever. What I like about this is that it kind of explains the big deal around certain role models or certain people that we celebrate in society, right? If you think about somebody like Barack Obama or Oprah Winfrey or people who have broken barriers, often these people, they're celebrated because of their gender, their race, their ethnicity, their sexual orientation, things that it's funny that as a society, we all agree that shouldn't matter. But then it's like when one of these people shows up and becomes Uber successful, we decide it matters. Yeah. And I think it's because of this because it's like, okay, when they see that Barack Obama can do it, then anybody who grows up like him looks like him is black. They can look at him and be like, okay, well, if that guy did it, that gives me more confidence that I'm capable of doing something. It's just funny that that's not really explicitly stated when we celebrate these people. But the reason it is a big deal is that it is when one of those people breaks through and becomes the first of, you know, XYZ, become president or BSEO or be a billionaire, essentially it is increasing the self-efficacy across that entire population in society. Yeah. And that was one of Festinger's, one of the points he made in social comparison theory was that typically, if there was no other objective information out there, we compare ourselves to similar others. Yes. That he was kind of the first one to really outline that and define how we did that. So yeah, that's absolutely, that drives us what you found, too, we're back in the 50s. Now let's talk about downward comparison. This is something that we also all do. So it's funny because anytime people complain about comparing themselves to others, they always complain about the upward comparison. They're like, there's this person that makes me feel bad. How do I stop comparing myself? Nobody says, oh, there are these people that I feel much better than, there are these people that I love talking shit about, there are these people that I think are fucking idiots and I kind of enjoy the fact that they're fucking idiots. Nobody complains about that, but meanwhile, everybody enjoys that. So downward comparison, again, it's inevitable, again, I think there's a healthy and an unhealthy way to do it. In the case of downward comparison, I think they're the healthy way of doing it is seeing how far you've come, being grateful. for what you have, understanding what not to do, right? I think we've all been there. We've seen somebody in our life like fuck up eight ways from Tuesday and be like, okay, not doing that. So in those ways, like downward comparison can be very useful, but I would say downward comparison becomes unhealthy in really in two cases is one is if it generates a sense of complacency, I'm just like, I'm the best. I don't need to do shit. Like these people suck. Like, you can start resting on your laurels and get cocky air again, things like that. And then the other thing I'd say is just being malicious. Like, there is a certain, I hate to say it, but there's an instinctual pleasure that comes with like seeing other people fuck up at things that like you would never fuck up. Like seeing people make a mistake that you would never make. Yeah, right. Shodden for it. Yeah. Yeah. And you're just like, what an idiot. Right. And yeah, that can feel good and small doses and it can feel good for like a short period of time. But you want to be careful not to indulge that too much because it yeah, it just turns you into a dick. Yeah. I have a tendency to go down that rabbit hole sometimes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We all do. We all do. It's funny. My wife and I, we for many years, we don't, we don't do it anymore. We finally grew up enough. We finally matured enough to the point where we stopped doing this. But my wife and I for many years, we had our, we always had one hate follow. And it was purely like, it was we each, there was somebody that we would follow on social media. And it was always somebody in our life. Somebody we knew. Okay. And it was somebody that we knew who like we thought was so cringe and embarrassing. But like they didn't realize it. And like we kind of enjoyed how cringe and embarrassing they were. Because at least I'm not this bad. Exactly. Exactly. It's just this like very like kind of mean girl's form of satisfaction that comes with it. Yeah, I'm happy to report that like we both kind of got grossed out by ourselves and stopped doing that many years ago. But that's such a thing though. Everybody that's so cringe. I hear that all the time now. And but it's like there's part of you. Oh, they're absolutely. I see how it's reinforcing for sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely, it's funny. I have not hate followed anybody in many years. But my how you've grown. I've become quite virtuous. If you haven't noticed, I am one of Aristotle's megalocycos. Yeah. No ego. You may. Let's look how egoless you are. Yes. And there's a there's a halo appearing on the screen right now. I see. I see it. Yeah. It's worth noting that Fessinger's model was a descriptive, not P scripted. Basically, he's describing how we compare ourselves to others. He's not saying how we should compare ourselves to others. Because I mean, let's be honest, we all we make all four of these comparisons. All of us do both healthy and unhealthy upward and downward comparisons. So basically, William James kind of explained the foundation of how social comparison works. Fessinger explained the mechanics of how it works. And it really isn't into like the late 20th early 21st century that we start getting prescriptive of like, okay, how do we actually do this better or what are ways that we can kind of steer ourselves towards better comparisons? And you want to guess what the primary finding is, what it comes back to? Interpretation. What are we going to do? Yeah. Values. Oh, yes. Comes back to values as it almost always does. Values all the way down. Values and boundaries. It turns out. So Abraham Tessers in the late 80s came up with the self-evaluation maintenance model, which basically what he discovered, and this makes a lot of sense, is that we tend to evaluate people based on things that we care about, right? So let's say you go and win a golf tournament. I don't give two shits about golf. So I'm going to be happy for you. It's super proud of me. It doesn't threaten my ego. It doesn't challenge my identity. It doesn't. There's no scarcity involved. Whereas, let's say I care very like, let's say I've been practicing my ass off and my golf swing and I'll like care really deeply about it. And then you just kind of casually go win a golf tournament. That's likely to spark a lot of envy because golf is something that I have chosen to measure myself by and to build my identity on. And then you go and do the thing that I care about. And you do it better than I do with seeming the less effort. So yeah, fuck you. And you see this kind of play out in all sorts of different dimensions. You know, one of the ways that I wrote an article many, many years ago, I think it was even before you you started working with me. It was called We Judge Others How We Judge Ourself. And it's basically whatever the yardstick that you have internalized for yourself, the ruler that you use to measure your own success or a virtue as a human being, that is what you will instinctively apply to others. And then when people drastically outpace you on that yardstick, you will feel threatened. You'll feel envious. You will feel but hurt. And you will be kind of a dick about it. Yeah. And everything's the yardstick, right? Yeah. It could be money. It could be how much ego you don't have. It could be anything. Anything looks whatever anything. Yeah. And again, like coming back to this, it makes sense that this is like largely rooted in values because if you go back to the values episode, one of the things that we hammer on over and over and over is that you have to value something. It is impossible to value nothing. Not valuing anything is a form of value. So which I guess is what the Buddhist monks find, right? It's like they're attempting to value nothing, which then becomes the new value that they measure themselves and the other monks buy. And it becomes competitive. And they're like, oh, fuck that guy. He's meditating longer than I am. And it values all the way down. That's what it is. Yeah. So the point here is that there are there are probably better and worse values. They're better better and worse yardsticks to measure ourselves by, right? And this kind of gets into, you know, without going too deep into the values episode, but like, you know, there are external and internal status indicators for ourselves, right? Like I can choose to measure myself by my success in golf tournaments, which is probably a bad way to measure myself. It's not something I have total control over. It's an external and arbitrary metric. It's very competitive. Whereas I can choose to measure myself by something much more internal, something I can fully control, like, say, my honesty or my integrity or how I treat people or how good of a friend I am. That's probably a much better way to measure myself and treat myself. And as a result, I'm going to draw better comparisons between myself and others, right? Kind of the simplest way that I've distilled this before is I've often written that, you know, that the trick isn't to stop comparing yourself to others. It's to compare yourself to better people for better reasons. And ultimately, a certain amount of this is just emotional awareness. It's self-awareness. It's understanding what are you choosing to make important to yourself? Because whatever you choose to make important to yourself, understand that that is going to become the basis of comparison that you make towards others. And again, in the values episode, we went on at length about how important and crucial it is to choose your values and know your values and live out your values and practice your values. This is just another form of that. Like, okay, when you sit down and decide what matters in your life, more than anything else, what do you care about? Understand that a side effect of that or a downstream effect of that is that this is going to become the way that you compare yourself to others. This is going to become the yardstick that you measure yourself by, that you measure other people by, and it's going to largely dictate and define the sorts of people that you want to surround yourself with, and the sort of people that you're going to look up to. Choose wisely. Choose wisely. Yeah. That kind of wraps up the psychological section. I do know that there's some interesting neuroscience that goes along with this, but you are the neuroscientist at this table. So I will shut the fuck up and hand it over to you. Yeah, a lot of the neuroscience anyway. Kind of, it wraps us all up in a kind of interesting way. I think I put some finer points on a few of the details that you've mentioned already. Back in the 2000s, there was kind of this foundational study. I mentioned that example about, if I make $70,000, I'm happy or if you only make 50, but if you make 90, there's a social comparison there and I'm not as happy. That bears out in the lab, actually. So they did this study where they put people in an FMRI. They had them do some task, it doesn't matter what it is because they would give them money if they performed it well. Not only did they show them how much money they gained from it, they showed them how much money other people got. Another person who was doing the same thing, how much they got. You got the same amount, you were both happy, it was all great, but sometimes they would say, okay, this person gets $40 and you only get 20. Then there was a particular spot in the brain. The ventral strideum doesn't matter. It's involved in reward. It fires more when you're, when you get a higher reward or the same reward as somebody else and then less if you don't. There's like, there's a brain mechanism right there that just your brain feels rewards in a relative manner. It's a comparison machine, it's not absolutely right. In the happiness research on income shows this as well. It's better to be the richest person in a poor neighborhood than the poorest person in rich neighborhood. It goes back to my grandma, we were poor, but we didn't I don't know where you're from. Yeah, right. Because everybody around. - That's what it was for. That was kind of the entry way into this social comparison and social neuroscience. There's, you have distinct neural machinery for comparison, why it feels good and why it feels bad too. Downward comparisons like I did better than this other person that it's naturally rewarding just on a normal basis it is where upward comparisons are usually like, there's a pinch of like pain with that, but not necessarily there's some nuance to that that I'll get into in a second. The, when we outperform others, reward circuits tend to line up, and when we are outperformed like social pain tends to light up. So there's completely different systems for these two as not just one system. So one system gets activated over the other, okay? Basically what they kind of glean from all of this, and this is given to the late 2000, 2010s, they glean from all of this is that another person's success or failure is it's meaningful to you, but that could be, it can be motivating or it can be demotivating, all right? This brings me to, there's kind of like a fork in the road. And this is what we've kind of already talked about this, but there's like a neural basis for it, right? I'm gonna use the emotions of envy and admiration here, but they could be similar emotions or what Aristotle called envy and emulation as well, right? So in envy, your brain kind of has, it assesses the reward versus the pain, but there's also like a threat component to it as well. So when you envy somebody, it feels threatening to you, right? Yeah, like that person's doing better than the, I feel threatened, I need to do something about it, right? But there's usually, there's a negative connotation to that, right? This occurs in areas like the anterior insula, anterior singolate cortex, basically these are the ones that process the social pain, okay? Whereas if you have something more like admiration or what Aristotle called emulation, another part of your brain does that as well. So there's like this fork in the road where somehow your brain, this something comes up and then your brain either assesses it as a threat or as okay, we're gonna go into growth mode now. Basically, right? Which is pretty interesting. Like there's actual neural machinery, that does this. Fascinating. Yeah, it's really, really interesting. So essentially that when your brain is kind of in this admiration mode, it goes searching for possibilities rather than the inadequacies. So like I think our task is to find that fork in the road, right, is to find that fork in the road where we can decide, where we can reinterpret that, whether it's CBT or any other methods that we're gonna talk about later, is to find that fork in the road and try to push it towards that more admiration and inspiration and upward spiral that we can find. Okay. Now, the neuroscientists too have found there's kind of four different things that can influence this. And we've already mentioned a couple of them actually, whether we take that in v-path or whether we take the admiration path. One of them you mentioned already was attainability so like in self-efficacy, Kellogg. Can't do I actually see myself as being able to do this? Yeah. Okay. If another person's success, if it feels like it's within reach, then it's usually inspiring. And so this is where all this stuff comes in about like be careful who you admire, who's the target of your admiration, right? Another one is self-security or self-esteem too. So people with stronger self-esteem, they show less of that kind of envy path, which makes a lot of sense, right? It's funny 'cause I just see that, especially if you take William James's definition, like I just see that as another form of self-efficacy 'cause it's like a person who's self-esteem has built up a resume of doing things in their life. And so that's just given them more self-efficacy and belief of like, oh yeah, I could do that. Yeah, no, for sure. Related to that too is the closeness of the target. This goes back to Fessinger again. So he said, if there's no objective information, we look to people who are similar to us. So it's usually your peers. If you're comparing yourself to your peers and people who are immediately around you, that's usually a better, you have a better chance of going down that admiration path. Right, do the empty path. Okay. And then last is a comparison when it's framed, it's the framing of it, basically. So if you see this comparison as a chance to learn, or a chance to grow rather than, it's just that mind switch really is. Do I see this comparison? Do I see this person achieving this thing that I either envy or admire? Is this a chance for me to grow? Or is it a chance for me to show how lucky they are or shit on them in some way? So those are kind of the four things that, that neuroscientists and psychologists together have kind of come together and found that we can kind of nudge ourselves towards the admiration route. Yeah. More recently, and you've mentioned this already as well too, you've hinted at it anyway, there's this thing what they call temporal comparison. So, and you've talked about this a lot, actually before, like especially you find yourself very very competitive, you're a competitive person, but the person you like to compete with the most is yourself, of course, right? And we actually do this all the time. I think people, we think of social comparison, we think of comparison in general, we're comparing ourselves to others. We actually do this all the time. All of us do this all the time. We're comparing ourselves. A lot of us though what happens is, is we're kind of, we're beating up our past self and saying, look what you did to me, basically, not in those exact words, but we're all doing this all the time. But if we can shift that to a, I'm better than I was yesterday or last year, whatever it is, that again is another method that psychologists and neuroscientists have found that that's actually a lot healthier and more adaptive and leads to more motivation towards your goals and your values. I think, so this is the cliche that originated with the StoEx of don't compare yourself to others, compare yourself to who you were yesterday or last year, or whatever. It's funny 'cause I feel like this is becoming culturally normalized and encouraged. Yes. And I think, I have a little theory around this. I think a lot of it has to do with data and video games. So, I mean, we're gonna get into how-- Yeah, the gamification. The digital world has affected our psychology and our social comparison. But I think this would actually be the positive side of the digitization of culture and society. Isn't that like, you actually have a record of how you were a year ago. You can go back and look what you were doing a year ago, right? You could see how stupid you were or the dumb thing you posted two years ago or what you bench pressed and squatted last summer. And you can see how far you've come. I remember it was interesting because I went through all of school writing papers, not knowing that I was a good writer. And I think a lot of that had to do with just how arbitrary the grading was with each teacher. Some teachers gave me great grades and some teachers gave me horrible grades. And I never really understood why I kind of just took it at face value. And when I started writing online, two things happened. One was I could actually go look back at things I wrote a year ago, two years ago, three years ago. And what I, after I wrote for a few years, what I consistently found was like, the further back I went, the more I crenched, the more I was like, holy shit. Woof, what was this guy thinking? And while that, that in that moment, it felt really bad. It just like, it's such a gratifying feeling to see, like, wow, look how far I've come. Just in three years of writing blog posts, right? And then the other thing is that you actually get the data on it. Like, you see, you're like, oh, okay. You know, in 2010, I'm like, okay, normal blog posts for me, it gets 30 comments. Well, wow, I go back and I look at 2008, and it's like three comments. Wow, that's come along. Like, clearly a lot more people like my writing than they used to. And I think you see this with video games as well, as an avid gamer, like most video games, like we'll track your skill and performance over time. They'll give you ratings, they'll give you badges, medals. So you can actually see your progression through games and like how much better you are at certain games over time. So, and then that doesn't even get into like, you know, apps like Duolingo and Strava, like, you know, all the gamification that's being built into, you know, education and different like health and fitness apps and things like that. You know, even, even something as simple, like, I don't know about you, but like the first 10 years that I worked out, I just went to the gym and just like, lift it out. Yeah, I just went. I just like, like, 30 pounds sounds okay, and like, I just pick it up and start doing a lift. It really wasn't until I was probably 30 that I actually started writing down my workouts and then like trying to improve on each lift and tracking my progress across things. And so yeah, it is, I think it's a fantastic thing. I think it makes everybody more effective when you're able to like track progress like this. And I do think it has been enabled with kind of the information revolution. So before I know we're about to get into kind of the, the disaster of social comparison and the digital age, but before we get there, I just want to, I want to. There's still our lining there too. Yeah, yeah, I want to stand on my soapbox and say like, wait, there's something really good that's happened. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's going to be personality based, I think, too. I think some people are just more externally focused than internally focused. I think it depends a little bit on your personality. If you are one of those people who does get motivation from external sources, I don't think it's such a bad thing. I know that's probably a lot of people don't agree with that, but again, if you leverage it correctly, if you leverage it right and do it in a healthy way and take that admiration path that we are talking about, then that's great. You can use both, you can do both, you're going to do it anyway. You're going to measure yourself against your past self no matter what, and you're going to measure yourself against other people no matter what. It's a matter of finding the right balance there in the right situation. Would you say it's accurate to summarize this entire section with the way to compare best is to compare in a way to learn and improve and to compare poorly is when you compare to judge and condemn. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, like I think there's-- Passing a verdict. Yeah. It's funny because it's like this didn't occur to me when you know during the research phase of this episode, but like now that we're sitting here talking about it for a couple hours, the thing that keeps coming to mind is like the growth and fixed mindset. Like it's when I look at like unhealthy comparison, it just feels very fixed. It's like, oh man, I'm such a loser. She's amazing. I'm never going to be like that. There's nothing I can do. Like that feels like a very unhealthy comparison or she's such a loser. I'm amazing. There's nothing she's ever going to do to change that. Whereas like the healthy form of comparison seems to be like, oh wow, that's really impressive. Like I wonder what I could learn from her. Right there. There's curiosity. Yeah. There's curiosity that comes with it. Yeah, I like that. Like instead of just like knee-jerk jumping to a conclusion about why someone was able to achieve something the way they did or whatever it is, there's a curiosity around it. Yeah. Oh, how do they do that? Oh, how do they think about that? How do they go about it? I don't know. You can take it too far and be like, what do they eat for breakfast? What's their morning routine? What you and I are both not big fans of like, what's your morning routine? But there's a curiosity there. Get curious about what's going on with this in the situation. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, without further ado, let's get into the digital Armageddon. The digital landscape, online. When you connect the one you connect the one it seems to be okay. It seems to be going okay. You think it's going well. You think this is going well? Drew Bernie, I'm fine dog in the Bernie house. Well, you know what I'm doing on social media. So for me, it's just going all right. But I hear there are some things about the digital world these days. You hear that, huh? One of those. And we tend to think that actually, yeah, social comparison is probably one of those things. Although I think it might be changing a little bit. I want to get your opinion on that here in a little bit. But yeah. So let's talk about what the what social comparison at scale does to us, particularly on the online scale, right? So, you know, we've kind of already covered obviously our evolutionary past is that we grew up in these, we developed in these small scale societies and we talked about the social brain hypothesis from Dunbar, right? We talked about this more in the in the friendship episode, but just to recap real quick, he had this idea of the concentric circles, right? You could have up to about five really close intimate friends, about 15 or so good friends, 50 people, you're like, yeah, I associate with these people and then you know about 150 people that you'd have a relationship with. Anything beyond that gets a little hairy, right? Well, obviously digital technologies kind of scrambled that up by time, right? The those boundaries that we used to have around those around those concentric circles are really, really blurred now. And I think we've had a really rough time in the last 20 years trying to navigate that, right? So comparison in this world, it's no longer just like it's no longer occasional. It's no longer just limited to the people around you, right? It's now scaled up. It's constant. It's global and it's highly curated too, which is another thing to think about, right? So what I want to do is I want to get into some of kind of the mechanisms. I want to add them. Yeah, agitives to that. It's permanent, which we will come back to this. We will come back to this. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. That's a really good one. We will, yes, we will touch on it. Okay, yes. So what I want to do then is get into some of the mechanisms and some of the kind of just consequences, just kind of describe the problem of what's actually going on and maybe talk about some of the nuances in there. And maybe talk about where we're headed a little bit with it too. And then we'll get into some of the more prescriptive stuff, how you can maybe like live as a modern person still and not be a total loadite like me, okay? Yeah, okay. Old man, Bernie. Don't enough wisdom coming down from the mountain time. Not a loadite, by the way. I'm very pro technology. I just I think we need to use it in the right way. And that's what we're going to get into here, right? Basically, though, you know, psychologists have for a while now they've called it we live in what they call a leaderboard society, right? And what they mean by that is, but like social, especially social media platforms, really mimic this like scorecard, the scoreboard. Yeah, it's very public. It's very out there. It's right in front of your face and it's constant because we're constantly logged on now, right? Things like likes, followers, shares, endorsements, all of these things. It's it's very clear like where you stand in this this pecking order that's online. This causes all sorts of problems, obviously. For one, they it causes what they call amplification effects, okay? The frequency and volume with which you are comparing yourself to others if you're online is just your brain can't handle it, right? Yeah, again, you're used to being around people for 99.9999% of our our history. We've been around small groups, a small group of people that we know intimately. And we occasionally compare ourselves to him. Remember, we might compare us to some quite a bit, but it's not not on the scale that we see now, right? You now compare yourself not just with like five, 10, 15, 20 people, it's about literally thousands of people, right? Then you have like all these little algorithmic nudges that we all know about, you know, what's the algorithm doing? What's the algorithm feeding you? What's the algorithm pushing you towards and nudging you towards? So you have, which is typically content that is forcing you to compare yourself, it's forcing you to be morally indignant like we talked about, it's forcing outrage. And yeah, it's forcing that comparison on you when you didn't really even necessarily ask for it, but it's just one big comparison machine. I mean, how else do social media platforms get you to buy things? Anything that's ad-based, right? Right. You're going to, it's going to sit there, it's going to provide you with some sort of social comparison and then offer you a solution. Yeah, I mean, marketing in a nutshell is like weaponizing feelings of inadequacy. So, and social media over the last, you know, 10 to 15 years has really perfected that. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's the biggest ad engine in human history. Yeah, yeah. I used to, when I was on Instagram too, there was a period about 20, I want to say 2018, 2019, we're just, shit, we're showing up at my house because I was buying the, like, I was fallen prey to these Instagram ads and it was just the dumbest shit too. And I'm like, oh my god, how did they do this? Well, it's through a lot of social comparison, especially something like Instagram, which is all about social comparison, highly curated, right? Virality and visibility too. So, when, when higher arcies are calibrated like in real time, like when you're in a group, a small group, it's, it takes time to, to climb up the social ladder if you will, it takes time, it takes positioning, it takes intimate knowledge with people online, like something you just go viral right away. And then all of a sudden that just shakes up the whole, the whole ecosystem that you're in. Maybe, maybe you go viral and like all your friends are like, oh, look at Mr. Big Riches here or something like that. Or maybe you go viral for the wrong reasons too. That's right. Another consequence of all of this as well. I would say though too, one of the biggest things is kind of a context shift that modern digital technologies provide, you go back to the similarity principle that, that have brought up a couple of times about that messenger came up within a social comparison theory. When we lack objective measures of how to measure ourselves, we compare ourselves to similar people. Your brain doesn't know the difference that when you're scrolling online, I know this sounds weird, but your brain does not know the difference between your peers and your non-peers on that. So, if you're following celebrities here, you're following somebody doing the craziest things with people who do like the wildest, well, first of all, they're curated in a certain way to make you, make you think that they're one way or not. Your brain just doesn't, it can't, it can't distinguish between who's your, who your peer network is and who you're seeing on a screen. So, that's how dumb our brain. So, I guess, to a certain extent. So, this, it's like, it's constant upward comparison that we're subjected to, right? And usually not the good kind. Or it's very easy to not, because you're just sitting there, you're not active in any sort of way, you're seeing other people be active in a socially upward way and you're not part of it. So, it's very easy to be like, well, I'm not like that, right? It can, it can lead to, it can enable a constructive rivalry with others, but I think you have to be very, very conscious about curating your feeds and all that. Yeah, I will say this. I do think the feeds are getting better at matching your interests. This is kind of where I wanted to go with you, yeah. Yeah. It is interesting. I do feel like things are shifting on the last couple. years. They're getting better in some ways but definitely not in all ways like worse in others I think but I do think one of the things that they are getting better at is is adapting to each individual user's interests like everything you're describing about like the constant comparison with like strangers and the just this massive sea or like be this like globalized comparison to all these people around the planet that I have nothing to do with. I definitely feel less of that these days. But I do feel much more pure comparison. And I think that's because my algorithms on each platform have become very narrowly focused on the things that I really care about that I'm really interested in. So whether it's video games, podcasting, writing books, personal development, growth, psychology, you know, it's that's pretty much like those things I just listed, music, those things I listed are probably like 80, 90% of all of my feeds across all platforms. And so now I am being compared to people for things that I do care about. And I think that's both good and bad. Sure, sure. You know, on the one hand, I do find more inspiration than I used to. Right? Like there is there is like really cool stuff that I'm exposed to that I'm like, oh my god, it's so cool I found this person and I'm going to learn a bunch of things. But on the other hand, because I'm now primarily being exposed to people who are doing the same things I'm doing, it is easier to judge myself for stuff. Like I don't know, I think back to, you know, what Instagram used to be, say six or eight years ago, it was just like beautiful vacation photos, beautiful people, like crazy amazing feats stunts, all this stuff. I never really cared about that. Like sure, maybe if you look at it enough times, you're like, wow, my life's kind of lame and boring. But like, I don't know, I don't think that had like a lasting effect, whereas I think now because it is so curated and we're so locked into, right? Oh, these are all the people who are doing the things that I care about, but they're doing them way better than I am. I think that starts to run the risk of like, oh man, I'm such a loser. Yeah, where do you even start? Yeah. Well, where do you think it is? It's going then, too, because you know, there's a lot of data coming out right now that like Gen Z, they're not as on social media as much as the video games is then, there's always a social component to those that they use. And so, and you've said before, the social media is way more media than it is social now. That's a big difference from, you know, early social media was, it was your peers to a certain extent. And then you might throw a celebrity or two on there, but now it seems like it's people in far-fung, flung places that you have nothing to do with and celebrities and the 1% of people who make the content. Yeah, I'm getting served. So, it's interesting. One of the things, you know, I had a long conversation with Jonathan Hight last year who's wrote the anxious generation. He's like really been spearheading this whole area of like social media, digital life, mobile phones, mental health, especially in young people. I mean, overall, I'm like very sympathetic to his cause and I agree with him on a lot of points, but it is funny. I remember talking to him. I remember like going through all of his research and then having the conversation with him. And I couldn't help but feel like, man, you are, there's a lag here. Like social, the social media world changes so fast. Right. The reality today is completely different than it was in 2023 or 2022. But most of the research that's coming out today was done in 2023 or 2022. And then most of the research that he wrote about, first of all, he wrote it last year, but he wrote it like two, three years ago. And then the research that he wrote his book based on came out two, three years before that. So he's working off of like the 2020 version of social media, which was completely different. Completely different algorithms, different use cases, different audiences. TikTok had like maybe 10% of the users that it has today at the time. So it is so different. It is becoming more media than it is becoming social. And I actually think from a mental health perspective, that's a good thing because I think when you get on an app, if you're consuming content and your perception of it is that it is a celebrity, it's not like a real person. It's not a peer. It's not somebody that you can actually compare yourself to. I think that's relatively innocuous for your like self esteem and mental health. Like for instance, when we were kids growing up, like, I know we're went and saw mission impossible and was like, man, I'm such a loser. Right. Yeah. Like I can't say I'll cliff with one hand. I'll be high maybe back. I'm like, I'm so lame. Nobody's ever going to like me. No, it was when like if you look at where all the negative mental health effects are happening, they generally happen with young people and young people primarily use social media, not as a form of media, but as a form of socializing. They use it to keep in touch with the kids at school. They're on Snapchat. They're on WhatsApp. They're posting TikToks to each other. And that's where you see a lot of these negative effects. And when you get into the older generations, people like us who kind of just get on and passively scroll, like I basically use Instagram the same way I used to use television. Like I used to, yeah, I used to come home from school. I turned on the TV and I would just kind of passively leave it on and not really think about it. And it would just kill time or like help me relax or whatever. I used Instagram the exact same way these things. And I definitely don't feel that comparison or pressure the way I used to say with Facebook 10 years ago. And Facebook 10 years ago or 15 years ago at this point, it was all my friends, all my friends friends, and all my peer group, all the people I went to college with, all the people, people in the same industry as me. And so when I saw them doing cool shit, I was like, oh man, Becky from English class is living in Switzerland like, oh, I'm so jealous. It was like that stuff actually hit and hurt a little bit. Whereas like now I get on Instagram and it's like, I don't know, some guys dog parachuting out of a flying van or something. I'm like, whatever. Right. This is fun for five seconds. Swipe to the next thing. Go as back to what we were talking about as you get, you will negatively evaluate somebody else who's like, it's in the same domain as you value or operating. We measure others by the way we measure ourselves. Right. And so when we're more exposed to people who are either in the same peer group or, sorry, I'm like totally hijacking your section. No, I wanted to ask you about this because when I was going through the research for this, I'm like, yeah, we've been talking about this for a decade. And a lot of the research I found was from about a decade ago. It's funny because, okay, so we did two or three episodes on this, on the old Sodor podcast a few years ago. I did the Jonathan Hyde episode last year with him, which I really enjoyed. He and I had a great conversation. And it's funny because this is actually one of the things I told him is I was like, I was like, dude, my whole business is on social media. I'm like, it is different. It's complete every two years. There's a huge. It's all different. Yeah. It's all different. And he was like, actually really curious about that. He was like, oh, how has it changed? Like, I explained to him, I'm like, dude, the for you feed. Most of this research was done when the for you feed didn't exist. And this is what we're talking about, right? The for you feed changed all of this, right? Like, now you're actually the majority of the content on most social platforms is people you've never heard of and that you'll never see. And so there is, I think, a separation. I think with the for you feed, you're actually less likely to make social comparisons. But because it is in the same domain that you're in, you know, it changes the nature of the comparison. And you start now, it's not just like a random anonymous person in some part of the world, like doing something cool that you're like, oh, man, I'll never do that. Now it's like, oh, this is a thing I really care about. Like, I'm a guitar player. And like, I can't tell you how many times some fucking 18 year old shows up on my feed and he is a god. He's an absolute god guitar. Good guitar. I'm like, dude. And every time I see one of them, I'm like, I'm so glad I quit music. I'll finish up my hijack here and then I'll hand it back to you. So my my fury with this, and I have no data to back this up. But this is kind of where I'm my heads at with the social stuff at these days. Like I said, I think you're mostly seeing the deleterious effect with the younger generation. Younger generation primarily uses it to socialize. They're not, you know, high schoolers aren't getting on and, and, you know, scrolling through people's Europe vacations and, you know, cool television clips from South Korea or whatever. Like young people are spending most of their time sending TikToks to each other, following each other, sending Snapchats to each other. And I do think the social media as a form of social communication, I actually think the initial, the initial intention of social media, which was to connect everybody digitally is actually what fucks us up. And because it's that's when you're getting the highlight, everybody's highlight reels. So it's like, let's say you're in a WhatsApp group with everybody from your high school. Everything that's getting posted is everybody's best moment or worst moment. So you're only being exposed to all of your peers at their absolute best or their absolute worst. And those are the people that you care, you actually do care about. Those are the people that you actually are basing yourself as them on. Not some random dude in Switzerland or whatever. And, and because you're being exposed to the extremes of their experience, you are going to get a very skewed and fucked up perception. On top of that, that there is the permanence aspect. And this was the big thing to adapt that Jonathan Hyde brings up that I think is huge and like completely understudied and underappreciated. - And still a problem. - And yeah. - A massive problem. - Has been a problem and still a problem. - A massive problem. So when you and I were in high school, if we went up to a girl at a dance and like awkwardly asked her out and got shot down, we would be really embarrassed for, you know, maybe 20 minutes, we would be embarrassed, you know, maybe there's like four or five other kids in the vicinity. - And in your shot. - Yeah. - And they're like, ooh, Drew got shot down. You know, like it's embarrassing in front of them. Maybe some people talk a little bit of shit at school the next Monday, but then that's it. It's gone a week later, nobody remembers. Nobody cares. You go on, you ask the next girl. And you learn a very important fact of life, which is that rejection doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It sucks, but it's like nobody remembers it none of it matters. Today, if you get rejected and it's been filmed, which it often is, that gets posted to the school WhatsApp group or it gets posted on somebody's TikTok, it gets sent around the school, everybody's commenting, everybody's trashing you, and then it's fucking there forever. - Yeah. - It's sophomore year, junior year, senior year. People can bring, anytime somebody wants to rag on you and anytime somebody wants to diminish you, shit on you, it gets brought back up. And so what do young people do? They become risk averse. They stop taking chances. They stop asking each other out. They stop going to parties. They stop doing drugs. They stay at home. They play video games together. - Yeah, yeah. And they get off social media. - Yeah. - They're starting to. - They're starting to now. - Yeah. Like you were saying, it's going more private than to whatever it is, WhatsApp groups or whatever, because the risk is so high. Same thing, all these VR glasses that are coming out that have cameras on them. And you don't know that now. Think about that. If those become so ubiquitous within just a few years, nobody's even going to want to leave their house. At some point. - Dude, I, like, can you see concerns? I didn't realize how little people care about privacy, but forget all of that. Just like the social risk of going viral for the wrong reasons. So, okay, I agree. I don't think people actually care about privacy. I think people care about that. - Yeah, yeah. - And it's like I have yet to meet somebody who's wearing the meta glasses in a social situation. But if and when I do, I'm going to be like, do you take that shit off? Like, yeah, don't do that. But I think everybody senses that so nobody wears them, right? Because it's like everybody knows, 'cause it completely changes the dynamic. If I have any inkling that I'm being recorded, I'm going to completely censor myself and change how I present myself, especially from around people I don't know, right? It's also like, why are you recording this? There's, it's interesting. So there's a AI product. It got massive funding. Like, raise tens of millions of dollars. It's called, it's called Friend.com. And it's super fascinating. So basically, what it is is it's awareable. It's like a necklace that you put on. It records everything. Records, like everything you listen to, everybody you talk to, where you go, everything. And then basically the idea is that it collects all the data on your life, on your day, whatever. And then anytime you're lonely, you can just talk to it. And it's an AI. And it can be your friend. And this company ran a massive promotional campaign, like billboards all over LA, New York, like just Times Square, all this crazy production, quality stuff being posted, going viral. And it's funny if you go to the App Store, A, like nobody's downloading it. And B, it has like a two-star rating. Because people are just like, fuck this. Like, like, do you really want to ruin the last thing that we have, which is like face-to-face in person spaces? Like it's already, everything else has already been ruined, right? The last sanctuary we have is when we're in a room together alone with no devices. So like, now you want to ruin that, too? (laughing) I'm just gonna try to figure it out a way. They'll find a way. They'll find a way. Yeah. So okay, where do you think that's going in terms of social comparison, if AI does take over the world? (laughing) Right? I mean, if we do, there are some people out there who think actually what we're about to do is go back to a time where we do converse more face-to-face, and we do. Yes. We live much more like our ancestors did, only with a lot more technology and a lot more safety. Yeah. Do you think that's around the corner, or at least in the future at some point? It's basically going to come down to two things. Do you have enough impulse control, slash lack of social anxiety to force yourself out of the house into these communities, into these events, into these environments, to build a healthy social life, to maintain your sanity and your happiness? And I think that's going to become much more important. It's going to become much more reinforced and encouraged. And I think it's even going to become more of a status symbol. If you actually have places to go in person, full of people who you like in respect and like in respect to you, it's going to be a bit of a status symbol. Then I think there's going to be a portion of the population that just like succumbs to the dopamine madness, and doesn't have the impulse control, has too much social anxiety. And I think there's going to be a very clear delineation between the two because it's like both are spirals. One is an upward spiral, one's a downward spiral, right? It's like the more sucked in and compulsive you get with all the dopamine madness, the more socially anxious you're going to become, the more distracted you're going to become, the more focused you're going to lack, and the harder it's going to be to get out of it. Similarly, it's like the more you get out of the house, the more social life you have, the more relationships you have, the more confidence in self-esteem you're going to have to like go out and do it more. So that's kind of my take, like I could keep going, but we're going to get way off talking. - No, no, no, I feel like I felt the tug too, and let me see if I can bring this back. - Yeah. - I felt the tug too, because even though like I'm not really on a lot of social media, I think I got YouTube elected, YouTube shorts, they're pretty addictive, they're like TikTok, you know? And I think it was one or two weeks ago, I had some friends that were like, "Hey, we're going into this, there's like a little concert." It's actually, it's like somebody's house who's kind of built like a backyard that's like a big compound for concerts and stuff like that, and it's small concerts, but still. And I felt the tug because I was like, "Oh, I kind of just want to stay home and scroll." And when I scroll, what I'm doing, especially like on YouTube shorts and stuff, it's other podcasters, a lot of podcasters, "Oh, I want to do something like that." "Oh, that's a really good way to present something or to whatever it is that I do with that." Or it's like, "Yeah, I think I'm really into." And there is that dopamine chase that you have. I forced myself, I got out and I was like, I was kind of dreading it almost. And so I get it, and I'm not in it, like younger people. - Right, you're pretty limited. Yeah, you're pretty limited in your digital diet. No, I mean, Fernanda and I talk about this quite a bit. We both feel it, it is that feeling you just described of like, "Oh, do I have to get up and go to this thing?" Like we're noticing that we're feeling that very consistently with social events. Like it's almost every single day. We're like, "Oh, do we have to go to this dinner?" Or like, "Oh, yeah, we agreed to do this party anyway." And then you go, nine times out of ten, we're like, "Oh my God, I'm so glad we went." You know, luckily we have had a few of this in the last few months, like a wedding party I went to and went to that concert, a couple other things, a couple dinners that I went to where there was that tug. And I get there and I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm so glad I came to this." And I got away from my phone and look at this and I had a great time and I connected with people, and it was awesome. And then people are gonna see that at some point. - But well, then it's funny 'cause then it's like, we go back home, and then like two days later, it's the exact same thing. - Yeah, it's like, should we cancel, like, do you really want to go? Like, it should make up a reason not to. But it's, it's, well, there is a comparison, I'll, we'll bring this home. There is a comparison element here too, right? Because you're comparing that experience that you might go and do this and it's like, "Ah, it's gonna be like, you know, parking's gonna suck. There might be some assholes there." - Right. - It's gonna be, you know, all of this. I could compare that, or I can sit here and I can know that I'm gonna get some dopamine hits. I know that I'm gonna get some feedback loops that are just gonna keep me hooked. Know what that experience is like. - Yes. - And I think, especially with like a social comparison, that's, you have to think about that. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, it is a big part of it is I think just the anxiety or the insecurity around, you know, like, okay, first of all, I don't know half the people who are gonna be there. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And then maybe in a lot of cases too, it's like some of the people, like, I don't know about you, but like, there's very few people in my life that I have like very, I universally feel good about. Like, there are, you know, most people that I know, I'm like, I really like them, but like, there's, you know, there's a little thing that bugs me or like, yeah, I hate it when she does that. And it's funny because it's in those moments, you're like, those things kind of get amplified in your head. - Yeah. And you're like, yeah, like I, yeah. So it's, it's a, yeah, I wasn't an awkward group hug when I went to that concert. So yeah, that was a little weird. - I'm sorry. - You have to endure such a thing. - That was the only awkward moment that I got the point. So that's good. - Yeah, you should try living in L.A. - Okay. - That was very drunk, so. - Anything else we want to hit on? I feel like we just threw half of the section half of our research out the way to do it. - I mean, there, you know, the prescriptive stuff, I don't know if we want to get too far into that. Like, since I have pulled back from so much social media, I definitely have noticed, here's the thing about those two is that I'm a person who is very much prone to social comparison. Okay, and I notice that more and more, I mean, we all are, as we've been harping on this whole time. I've just noticed that I don't, there's certain areas of my life where I just don't have as much of that anymore. I don't have as much of a comparison mindset around anymore. Usually around, a lot of it is around the people I hang out with, it was like, oh, is this person cool? Is this person not cool? How is this person going to affect my social standing or anything like that? I had, maybe I was just getting older too, I don't know, or, you know, just things that I have, like the like material possessions, I don't see a whole lot of that anymore, because I'm not inundated with really highly targeted ads as much, you know? So, I mean, I think if you are, like taking a break is good, sure. You know, I know that's the standard device, but yeah, I don't know. It's just gonna be really interesting to see where this goes and how we're supposed to navigate it. I don't know. You got any advice on that? I mean, you're on social media a lot. The other side of it though too is that recently, like I logged on to a social media network that I forgot that I even had an account not too long ago. I was like, what was that? Like, I forget what this is even like. I found some really cool stuff on there. I was like, oh, this is awesome. Again, I think the highly tailored, the benefits of social media are largely unconscious and the costs are very conscious. So, I think a lot of it goes under the radar. Like, I've been exposed to tons of incredible musicians and bands that I love through social media. That was the biggest thing that I miss from social media is I don't find as new music. I've discovered tons of great books. I've heard a bunch of interesting interviews. I've learned so much about business through social media. And YouTube, so I mean, it's again, there's like, there are a lot of benefits that kind of go unsung. I will say one last thing and this kind of ties into the for-you-feed thing, right? So it's like, I do think the for-you-feed has kind of killed the problem of that global comparison and localized it a little bit more again. But the problem is that that localization is not accurate. It's not reflective of reality in a lot of cases. So I think what has happened since the for-you-feed is that, okay, each person is getting served a narrow band of content based on the topics that they care about or they're interested in. The problem is, is that it's kind of like the criticism of the news media. It's not that they're not factually correct. It's that they're not, they're only presenting you certain facts. They're like, shape and mold your perception of an issue. The exact same thing is happening on social media, but it's happening to each one of us individually. So it's, and this, it is true politically, but it doesn't have to just be true politically. Like you could be getting served things about nutrition and health that are because it's very much based on your preferences and your viewpoints, you are developing a distorted perception of reality and therefore you are drawing social comparisons based on something that is not actually accurate or reflective of the thing you actually care about. And so I see this happen a lot. Like, do you remember like a year or two ago, a bunch of journalists were talking about the vibe session or a bunch of economists were talking about the vibe session, which is basically like the economy was doing great, but when you surveyed people, they thought it was doing horribly. And it was very interesting because they pointed out that generally speaking like consumer surveys have been historically accurate predictors of recessions and how well the economy is doing, except for in the last three or four years. And I personally think it's the for you feed because the people who are currently down on their luck, lost a job or things aren't going super well or like inflation hit them hard or whatever, they are being curated content and information that reflects that reality back to them. And so they are erroneously developing a perception that the whole world is experiencing this, that because it's everybody on their feet is showing up is complaining about inflation too. And everybody else has lost their job that they're watching and they're getting served all this content from people who are complaining about the economic situation. Meanwhile, like the actual data is showing that things are fine. So it's, I think that's like a microcosm of the issue. And you can run that through, there's tons of political issues that it, like we're literally to a point where that people on different sides of a political issue, like literally don't agree on the facts, right? Like there's just, there are like different facts for each side. And you don't really like, you don't really know what to make of it. - Yeah, and I don't, like I said, it's gonna be crazy. (laughing) It's just gonna be, like one difference, I think that you just pointed out from the like new media, social media you're saying is there's a number more media than social now. Using it, if you're using it like TV used to be or whatever, there wasn't, that wasn't the case. There was kind of one narrative that everybody, you just kind of had, right? I mean, yes, as cable television got more channels and like all of that, they're sure there was, there was dissemination of different opinions, but it's now, it's like everybody's got their individual a little universe, and I guess one thing that does flow from that is that you, you do have some power over the curation of who you are comparing yourself to in that ecosystem too. If it's more distributed, you can, now you can go find your little pocket, your little niche. Everybody can have your own little universe. There's trade-offs there, again, too, like you're saying. But you can curate, if you're, if you're conscious, more conscious and intentional about it, you can curate who you're comparing yourself to. And you can, you can and should also, it's the same way you can and should curate the people in your life, right? Like, to bring this full circle into how to compare yourself to better people for better reasons, part of it is simply surrounding yourself by better people. By people you admire, by people you wanna emulate, that people would make you a better person. You know, ultimately Aristotle, as usual, had it right. You know, it's like this, this machinery's part of your brain so you might as well leverage it. And the way you leverage that is to find people you admire and you wanna emulate and who make you a better person. - Yeah. I guess that's the 80/20. Do you think there's another 80/20? - I think we did kind of cover all of it right there. - Yeah. I mean, you know, like, sure you could argue, I'll compare yourself with yourself. You can argue all of those things, all the things we went over, sure, if those resonate with you, go for it. But at the end of the day, I think it is just a matter of intentionality, yeah? - Yeah. - I think you can and should compare yourself to your, your past self, but I don't think you can only compare yourself. - It's impossible, yeah, no. You will always be compared. That's this part of nature. And you're gonna do both. Again, being aware of any comparisons you're making that make you feel bad, like that's probably an area that you should set a boundary in your life. Either expose yourself to those people less or take yourself out of those situations, to a certain extent. Hidden costs of social comparison, of comparing ourselves well. I will say this, a lot of toxic relationships thrive on unhealthy social comparison, right? Like if you look at kind of what's at the core of a toxic relationship, it's often an insecure individual who is measuring themselves, comparing themselves in an unhealthy way to somebody else. - Yes, yeah. - So I feel like, you know, I guess that's not a cost. I guess when you set boundaries with unhealthy people in your life, there's often fall out in drama. So I guess maybe that's a cost, but is there a cost to comparing yourself more health, like more healthfully? - I try, I've racked my brain. And because if we start with the premise that it's going to happen no matter what, like unless you can completely get rid of it, which I don't think you can, I don't think you want to, most of all, because then you have no identity at that point, I think. So yeah, I don't know. I think this is one of those where it's like, just get good at it, you know? - It's a skill issue. - It is a 100% skill issue. - It's a skill issue, it's not an understanding issue. It's a skill issue. - Any takeaways for you personally? - Yeah, okay, so what I mentioned this earlier, I kind of, I let the cat out of the bag already, but the curiosity thing, I think is what really, really resonated with me in doing research around this. It's not that, there is that fork in the road you can take. And that fork in the road is curiosity. When you see something and you are envious of someone else, get curious about it. What is it about them that led them to this place that you want to get to? What is it about the decisions they made? What is it about their character? What is it about the way they see the world? Like get curious about those kinds of things, but then also get curious about the thing that you're comparing yourself to. The specific thing, if it's because they're successful in some area or they've accomplished something in some area that you want to dig down underneath, that get real curious, because there's probably a value underneath that. - Yeah, it's interesting as you're saying that, have you ever had the experience of, you know, maybe you see something online and it really bothers you, and then you like stop and ask yourself, you're like, "Why does this bother me?" - Yes. - Oh yeah. I've had that happen so many times. I'm like, what is it about this that pisses me off? I don't understand, why do I care what this person's doing? That's super interesting. I would say to, for me, the big aha here was the connection of the values piece. It's funny too, because it's one of those things that makes sense and it feels obvious in hindsight, but I definitely, I feel like this is something that I've always been very good at. I've always been very good at not comparing myself to people I don't really give a shit about, and then I also feel like the people I do compare myself to, it's like in a very healthy way because I admire them or I want to get better. Yeah, I think it's really at the heart of that is an understanding of what you want and what you care about and what's worth caring about. I think if you don't have clarity around the values piece, then that's when you fall into just like becoming a validation junkie, that's when you grab values from all around you. That's when you just start adopting the values of the people around you, right? It's like, well, I don't know what I care about, so I'm just going to do what other people want, so I'll just care about what they care about, because that will make me feel liked and appreciate it and whatever. So I think ultimately one of the pieces of advice that I've often given at talks is the best way to stop worrying about what other people think about you is to have something more important than what other people think about you, right? I remember I was giving a talk in Australia and a young woman got up and asked this question and she was like, yeah, I just care so much and I'm very sensitive and I worry about all these things. She gave me some scenario. I think she was like a university student, she gave me like some scenario that she was like kept her awake at night and I was like, okay, let's do a thought experiment. That situation that you just described that you were embarrassed then and like you wanted to die with embarrassment, it's like, okay, let's imagine your mother had terminal cancer. And the only cure requires you to go through that embarrassing experience. How willing would you be to go through that experience? Right. Side me up, right? Exactly. It's like, do it in a heartbeat. And I just think it's like, that's an extreme example that illustrates a principle, which is that if you have something going on in your life that feels so important to you and that you care about very deeply and you like, it needs to matter more than other people's approval, then you will no longer be dictated by other people's approval. Yeah. Just one more thing on the values thing too, when you're clarifying that value, like if you admire somebody, why do I admire them, or why am I envious of them, whatever it is, the, a lot of times the value isn't the thing that you actually think it is, right? Like, for instance, for a long time, I was like, I want to make a whole bunch of money, right? And I want to be super, super successful. And I look at that and there's some people who want to do that because they want the validation of others or they want to feel loved. Me, I was like, I just want the freedom that these people have. I look at that and I'm like, these people can do whatever the hell they want. That's amazing, right? And so there's probably like, there's that underlying value is usually one, one step further than you think. Yeah, it's one layer of capacity. Yeah. Well, that's it for this episode, everybody. As always, check out the PDF guide, softpodcast.com/socialcomparison. Be sure to like and subscribe, follow us on whatever platform you're listening to. Give us a great rating because Drew and I need validation. Absolutely. We compare ourselves mercilessly to the other podcasts in our space. And if we don't have enough five star reviews, Drew and I will not sleep tonight. I'm not going to sleep anyway. Yeah, Drew never sleeps, but so anyway, please leave a review. Thank you for tuning in and we will see you next time. Bye, guys. (upbeat music)