College Conversations: Self-Advocacy

[MUSIC] Welcome to College Conversations, an interview podcast. I'm your host, Kyle Munschauer, and I'm a facilitator here at Project Success. In each episode of college conversations, I will connect with current college students, students considering life after high school, and professionals with insider knowledge about the college experience. We will explore questions about college through the lens of conscious decision making and individual stories. Project Success has always believed in the power of people sharing their story, and that's what we plan to do here. What is self-advocacy? What is self-efficacy? To me, self-advocacy means being able to promote your own views and interests. Self-efficacy speaks to your confidence in being able to bring control over yourself and your surroundings. For example, when I was in high school and I got a B+ on a paper, but I thought I deserved an A. I was being a self-advocate because I went to my teacher and I said, "Hey, I think I earned an A and here's why." Self-efficacy was my confidence and belief to actually ask that question and approach my teacher, and to think that I could actually make that change in my life and my academic career happen. Now, this doesn't always mean, however, that you will get yes for an answer, you're not always going to change a B+ to an A, but that's okay. Speaking up for yourself and advocating for what you want and need can be a difficult thing to do. Are students entering college comfortable advocating for themselves and able to realize their desired outcomes? What do self-advocacy and self-efficacy look like before and during college? With me to help discuss our Josh Cleveland and admissions officer for Fond de la Tribal and Community College, Alwyn Foster, a graduate of North High School from the early days of project success, and Leo Danorsmith, a current 12th grade student at Roosevelt High School. Josh, Alwyn, Leo, welcome. I'm going to open it up first to Leo. Leo, would you please share a little bit about yourself and what self-advocacy means for you? Hi, I'm Leo Danorsmith. I'm a senior at Roosevelt High School. I've been going there for four years now and I quite enjoy it. And I think Roosevelt in particular is a school that is really fostering for self-advocacy. And for me, self-advocacy means knowing what you want and having the confidence and the tools to go and try to get it to your best ability. So whether that's asking for help to try to get it or just asking for what you want, that's what self-advocacy means to me. And I think my high school has helped me be able to advocate for myself. Thanks for sharing Leo. I'm just going to follow up real quick with you. So I like how you mentioned specifically that Roosevelt has been a place that has helped you self-advocate for yourself. Can you tell us about a time where Roosevelt's impact was really felt on you in terms of your self-advocacy? Yeah. Well, I really do think that part of it is the teachers are so just open to allowing you to ask questions or come in after school. Or anything like that if you're having trouble with a certain subject or literally anything. And so there's so many, like, you almost never get like no for an answer. Like they're almost never no. You can't come in or anything like that. And then even onto the administration, this isn't necessarily an example for me, but there was this girl last year who was a senior. And she had an open class period at the end of the day. And she wanted to pursue a career in art. So she asked the administration if she could paint like a mural in one of the hallways during her open class period. And they just said yes and allowed that to happen and gave this girl this opportunity to pursue her passion. So I think that kind of opened this both in the teachers and the administration at Roosevelt and not certainly not judging you if you ask for something really fosters a, I guess, environment of self-advocacy. Yeah, I love that example. Thank you for sharing that example. Just it seems like Roosevelt seems like they yeah, like you said, created an environment where students feel comfortable just asking those questions. And and maybe you're not always going to get that yes. Maybe that art students not always going to get that approval for that mural. But the ability of and confidence that you had to ask that I think speaks a lot to what self advocacy means. I think that's a really cool example. I'm going to turn it now to Alan. Alan, would you please share a little bit about yourself and how and where you see students speaking up for themselves or where self advocacy and self efficacy has shown up in your life. Well, I'm going to exercise some self advocacy right now. Kyle, I was very much offended by your terminology of the quote early days of project success. That's what you call throwing shade. That's just a nice way of saying I'm old man. Like that's all that is. But all jokes all jokes aside. Alan, I'm so so sorry. I you know, thank you for exercising self advocacy right now. This is this is a theory in practice right now. Right. Right. Indeed. Indeed. But yeah, no, I guess I am old. I did a part of the class in 2002 from North high high school. But I think self advocacy is simple as understanding what you deserve and not being afraid to communicate that to others, whether they agree or not. So understanding what you deserve or what you've earned, I should say not deserve what you've earned and being fearless in communicating that to others and understanding. Hey, listen, I can't make the decision for them, but I can advocate for myself and put the pressure on them to do, you know, what I think is best for me based on what I see. So yeah, awesome. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I really like that way of putting it going after what you, you know, you change it from deserve to earn. But I think I think what you deserve is a good way of putting it to to say that I am, you know, I'm good enough for these things, right. And these things, even though there might be barriers to me asking for them or I might not have the confidence to do. So these things should be coming to me and all I've got to do is ask about it. I think that's a really interesting way to think about it. Thank you for that. No problem. Now I'm going to turn it to Josh. Josh, would you please share a little bit about yourself and what self advocacy means to you and how you see students advocating for themselves in your position. Hey, Kyle. So my name is Josh Cleveland and I work in admissions at Fondelac Tribal and Community College. And I've had the privilege to serve students and students who are thinking about attending our college for the last seven years. And I've met students from all over students who are coming right out of high school. Students who have worked a career for 20, 30 years and maybe lose a job or have the idea, hey, maybe I should do something different in the second half of my life. And it's been really neat to see how different folks approach the same, let's say, process of pursuing education, running after their dreams, stepping into the unknown, which can be scary for anyone, but it can also be very exciting. And especially if you have somebody who's going to walk that journey with you and say, hey, you don't have to know all the answers. But I'm here to help at least direct you in the right direction and to dream with you. And so that's that's kind of an idea there. As I was thinking about this interview, I was just mulling over things in my life. And when I was 22, I spent a year teaching English in China, conversational English. And part of the contract was housing along with not a whole lot of money, but you didn't need a lot of money, right? Young, single and having an adventure. Well, part of the contract was that the apartment would be furnished with a washing machine, which doesn't seem like that big of a deal, except for a week went by, two weeks went by, three weeks went by. And I would just gently mention it because I didn't want to demand anything, but at some point I thought, you know, I'm spending so much time washing my clothes by hand. It's taking away from some of this awesome opportunity here in a totally different country on the other side of the world. And I remember going down and sitting in an office and just saying, with a big smile on my face, this is something I would really like partly because it's in the contract. And I think it's really good for us to live by what we agreed with. And a big smile came across the headmaster's face and said, well, get it done today. And it was really cool. They had a washing machine installed that day. and I'm not sure what the difference was, except persistence and keeping that smile on my face and staying after it. - Yeah, that's a great story, Josh, because I think that really speaks to what Alan was talking about with like going after what you think you've earned or deserved because like you said, the washing machine was in your contract after all. And you know, being maybe a nice person like you, you know, like you sound like you are, going in with a big smile on your face, it might be easy to say, oh, maybe they just forgot about the washing machine or, you know, I don't really need one, I can wash them by hand, but like having the confidence to say, no, I've actually got power in this situation and ask for that washing machine, that thing that you were promised that you signed an agreement that they said they were gonna give to you. Yeah, I think that's an excellent example. How do you see self-advocacy and self-efficacy appearing in your role at Fondalac? Yeah, so when students come in, there's a variety of levels of confidence and everybody's got a different history. And so some people have grown up and they've got the self-talk or the tapes rolling in their head saying, I've got this, here's my dream, I'm running after it. And then there's others that, hey, today might be the first time that we're actually verbalizing a dream, which is a huge step, right? That's like putting a brand new set of tires on your car. Like it will get you where you wanna go. And yet that's gonna take some work, that's gonna take some effort. And so sometimes it's as simple as just as we're walking around our campus, connecting students with somebody who's gone before them by just six months or a year, who was in those same shoes, right? And it helps if somebody has a little bit of an idea of what they like, but sometimes we have to work off of what we don't like, right? Do you enjoy numbers? Do you like working by yourself? Or do you really like hanging out with people? Are you more of a friendly outgoing sort of person? Or would you rather work quietly? Would you like to work with your hands? And so validating how each person has been made, the gifts that we've been given, and then telling people, you don't have to apologize for what you're not, right? 'Cause we aren't everything. We are individuals that make up this beautiful thing of community and collective. And we have to be proud of how we've been made and willing to engage versus think that it's somehow better to sit on the sidelines and watch other people do amazing things. - Yeah, Josh, that's super inspiring. And I think great advice for anybody listening to pay attention to. And I think it also connects to what Leo was talking about as far as like Roosevelt in his experience, creating an environment for folks to verbalize those dreams and to latch on to even if it's just a little thing, giving you some direction or giving you, as you put it, the wheels on the car. And as someone, personally who's doing a lot of work on their car right now, it's so important to get those wheels on. - It is, and it should be discouraging, right? When you put 500 bucks into, let's say, new tires and then two weeks later, all of a sudden the alternator goes out, but you gotta remember that that investment of the tires is contributing to the whole of the car, right? So I like in that to when a student maybe needs to go for some tutoring and math, you know, that doesn't mean that it's gonna be super easy in the next class, but you celebrate that success of that math class and then move on and keep asking for assistance and celebrating those little gains, those wins. - Yeah, absolutely. Josh, I think we need to have a whole separate podcast talking about cars at another time. (laughing) So as all of your stories highlight, students promote their interests in a variety of ways and for various reasons, whether it is wanting to paint a mural or needing some tutoring or just saying that you're not old on the project's success podcast. We all advocate for ourselves in different ways. Now, narrowing the focus a little bit when we're thinking about high school students who are thinking about college, whether that's a two-year college or a four-year college, they're in, they're last year's a high school to try and make this decision. They might have to advocate for themselves in that process and they might have to continue to advocate for themselves later on when they're enrolled and on that college campus. One example for me that comes to mind is financial aid. For example, if you need to decide between two similar colleges, let's say, St. Olaf and Carlton, let's say they've got the same tuition cost, you might have to advocate for yourself at some point and ask for a better financial aid package. Perhaps you find out that one of the colleges can give you another $5,000 in scholarship money and now that decision could be a little bit easier. According to an MPR segment on Elite U.S. colleges, students who are more comfortable self-advocating for aid packages have significantly better academic results than those who don't. Furthermore, college students that recognize their autonomy and voice and that they're voicing their own desires, they're also a trace that have overall higher success throughout their time in college. Now, those are some pretty convincing impacts. I'm gonna turn it to Alwyn. Alwyn, what do you think are some barriers to students actually practicing self-advocacy or self-efficacy? - I would say one of the barriers is you want to give people the benefit of the doubt, right? The younger you are, often the more optimistic you are about things and you try to decipher things for people and all they didn't mean it or maybe you just want to give them a pass of sorts and things that, hey man, maybe when it comes around again, I'll get another chance to address it. But understanding that sometimes people forget, so you have to advocate for yourself. And sometimes, let's just be candid about it. It's self-false advertisement. I shouldn't even say, that's not the language I want to use, not false advertisement. People's feet have to be held to the fire. If I owe you $100 and I can give you 90 and you walk away and be grateful, most people are not most people, but some people are gonna try to do that. So when you advocate for yourself, you are pushing back against that and saying, you know what, I'm going to push a little further and get what I believe I deserve. Another barrier I could see to that is feeling like you don't know all the alternatives, you know? So they gave you one alternative and you're like, well, I don't know any others, so I might as well, you know, accept that. But even going into the office or returning an email or returning a call and when you don't like the options they presented, if you're not in a position to research the information, just asking our right. What other options are there for me? What alternatives are there for me, right? Because that's going to open up the conversation and they are going to begin to share with you, well, this is an option, that's an option. These are some things that are available to you. But I think sometimes when you're younger, when you're in high school, especially you're entering into college, you think, well, they're offering me option A and I don't know a better way, so I'm just gonna accept that. But asking the individual via email or in person, what are my additional options? Doesn't put all the pressure on you to know the answers, but it still moves the conversation forward. So that's my one and a half thing there. - So let me see if I am understanding what you're saying correctly. So I'm hearing you say that students are often forced to settle for something that they're not necessarily happy with, whether that's accepting a less attractive financial aid package or not being presented with as many options as they want. But you're saying they're just supposed to be happy with what they get and settle for that. Is that what you're saying? - No, no, I'm saying that you should show a willingness to always ask the question, what options do I have? I literally ask that individual, the person who's presenting the information, if you haven't done the research, what are the additional options that are afforded to me, speaking up and asking them, because as we know, people are often times they're gonna present you with the path they think you should take as opposed to all the options that you have. But after you hear the information from them, if you turn the question back on them, oh, okay, well thank you for sharing that. What are the other options that I have? That will open up the conversation with them and they'll have to reply, oh well, this is an option too. You know, I didn't really wanna say this, that will cause them to open up the conversation and take it to the next level to proverbialize. put it all on the table as they say. Yeah, that makes sense. I want to turn that thought over to Leo. Leo, what are your thoughts on that? Do you find in your experience that students aren't always presented with all of the options or presented with less than what people could be offering them? Yeah, I don't know. I'm pretty privileged in general. I get good grades and everything. I don't think I've necessarily experienced that in my own life. I don't know if I have exactly all the knowledge to speak on that. I could definitely see if you do have possibly a worse academic track record for whatever reason. You could be angled towards one path or another, perhaps unfairly. But I find usually the schools recently have taken a bit more of an emphasis on diverse paths, not just college, talking more about apprenticeships and the military or one of those other paths in general. When I was a bit younger, it was always just kind of one. There's college. That's the path that you go down pretty much. But in high school, it seems like they talk a bit more diversely about gap year or military or apprenticeship trade school, something like that, which I'm sure is helpful. But again, I'm pretty privileged in my upbringing and academics. So I might not experience some of the blockages that appear in self advocacy. No, I think that that's an excellent perspective. And I think it makes me think of a couple things. The first thing it makes me think of is that I think you're right in that sort of, you know, you got to go to college. A piece of this is maybe not as strong as it used to be. Maybe students really are seeing more options, but then self advocacy comes in where they say, you know, maybe I don't want to just go to college. Maybe I do want to take a gap year or go to a two year college or go to a trade school or just work for a while. Leo, although you've talked a lot about Roosevelt and how it creates this great environment. Can you tell us about a time where you didn't necessarily feel comfortable self advocating for yourself and getting that thing that you wanted? I think I'm a bit earlier in my high school and even earlier than that career. I would often be a lot more afraid to ask for help or ask questions or ask if I could retake a test, anything like that, because I was either afraid of them saying no. Or of like in regards to like questions during class or something looking dumb or foolish, because I was asking the question, but I think it. So sometimes because I was worried about either the part like bothering the person I was asking, I never wanted I never wanted to like bother anybody. Or looking dumb or something I would often either not ask the questions that I needed to ask or not ask for the thing that I needed. But more recently, I realized that for the most part, people usually don't care when you ask a question, either they don't care or they actually appreciate it. Usually and the worst thing they can say is no. And and then that's that. So, but before I think being worried worried about being seen as like dumb or just worried about bothering the other person would sometimes be a hindrance to advocating for myself. Yeah, for sure. And I think with college in particular with admissions officers or with financial aid people or maybe people who run the housing system at a certain college, I think that's a great insight that you're probably not bothering them because this is their job after all. But even if you are bothering them, like that's okay. I mean, like you can speak up for yourself and not feel ashamed about that. Maybe we can loop in Josh here as someone who works at a institution of higher education. How do you feel when students come advocate for themselves and how do you yeah, how do you feel about Leo's perspective there? Yeah, excellent. Totally. We are absolutely repaid to help support people make their dreams happen. And so if somebody's dream, let's just use housing as an example. If somebody's coming to our college and last minute, their cousin or their high school friend decides, hey, I guess I'm going to fondle act as well. You know, it's not bothering the housing director to call or email and say, you know, I know it's last minute, but is there a chance? And as long as there are spots, we always like trying to accommodate things and making it the best fit. Other people that are here just to help students think of the librarian free tutoring for any student in any subject. So colleges need because it's a chance to reinvent yourself just because in high school, let's say, maybe reading, writing, math, science, you know, whatever the subject is that kind of gives you a little pit in your stomach or you feel a little butterflies anxiety. College actually can be a chance where you hone in, you get a nice base of foundation. It's a different style of learning because in high school, you're in a desk from usually about eight in the morning till three in the afternoon. In college, you're only in a lecture class. Your instructor is only talking to you for about 12 to 15 hours a week. And so that gives students an opportunity to pursue learning in a way that works for them. So for example, that might be collaboratively studying with two or three other people for myself. I love being outside. I just find that I can actually remember what I read. I can remember what I study better if I'm outside, especially a nice fall day like today. And just building those connections with people. Some people it's studying an absolute silence, which oftentimes in high school is pretty hard if you're in a classroom with 20, 30 other people. And one thing that I had the chance to learn as a college student is that instructors, those college instructors because they're not teaching from eight in the morning till three in the afternoon. They have something called open office hours. And that's a chance for students who have questions or who just want to expand their learning on a particular topic can go up and meet with the instructor. And he or she will be so excited to see that interest that a current student is showing. So I know for example, our English instructors will work on short stories and poetry that our students are just working on personally. Same thing with like a music recording studio. You know, we're excited to see students pursue their passions. And we're not like, oh boy, why are they here? Why are they bugging me? It's like, yeah. And so, you know, I'm just going to throw out the invite. I would love to give it to her to anybody. It's my favorite thing to walk around our campus. So, you know, call me up. How do you find people? How do you know who to even reach out to the college admissions just means admit first step. Call them up send an email will be excited to have you check us out. Josh, I think you make a lot of really good points. And I think especially about that piece about what works for individual students like maybe you need to be outside. Maybe you need to listen to music or have complete silence. I am going to push back a little bit though and I'm going to push back by bringing this conversation into the present into 2020 with the backdrop of COVID-19 in mind in previous episodes of this podcast. We've discussed some of the difficulties presented for students not even being able to visit certain college campuses due to travel restrictions or go into those offices because of difficulties with social distancing. Maybe they can't actually meet those financial aid officers in person those athletic coaches those academic academic advisors in a sense they lose a part of their ability to speak up for themselves in that real physical way. So, in this sense in this new normal, what do you think changes? What do you think are some of the new ways that students can practice self advocacy and self efficacy with coronavirus in mind? Kyle, that's a great question. I can speak from the admission side of things, you know, things have changed fast over the last six to seven months. And so, you know, what I say here on this podcast could be different in a month from now or six months from now as people would listen to these episodes. So, definitely not feeling like you should know, like for a season, it seemed like most of the public kind of assumed like, "Oh, the college is probably closed." When in reality, I was here sending out emails saying, "I'd love to give you a tour, but we're going to be wearing masks. We need to stay six feet apart and keep it a small distance." Being a smaller community college, we serve just under a thousand students. There's many students that are doing the Zoom learning, but there are some programs that require face-to-face connection like our law enforcement program, our nursing program, and electric utility technology program. So those students have the privilege to come onto campus if they're able. But for those students who are doing distance learning, it's a unique thing because it's primarily through Zoom. But the benefit is that it is live virtual versus just like a pre-recorded something. So students are encouraged to participate through chat and talking conversations. I see students every day here on campus. You know, we do ask the students where masks, but financial aid, advisors, folks like that are out in the comments working with students maintaining that distance. But for students to, you know, if they think they'll be better served, let's say face-to-face, you know, at least just asking for that. Or if somebody is like, you know, at least Zoom, you know, video chat, I feel like I'd do a better job of, let's say, picking out a class schedule. You know, instead of being like, oh, I know that's a bother for you. It's just been like, is that an option? And as somebody shared earlier, the worst somebody can do is they know. And then I love that idea following up with, well, what other options do we have? Because then that does it expansive, right? It starts opening up the options instead of closing. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, we, with coronavirus in particular, like we are forced to focus on a lot of the limiting factors. But in fact, you know, this might force us to explore so many other opportunities that we hadn't thought of before. And self advocacy could play a big piece in that. And Alwyn, I'm going to turn it over to you. So with COVID-19 in mind, what changes do you see happening in the world of students advocating for themselves, speaking up for themselves, especially as they're making the transition from high school to college? I would say that staying up to date on the changes that are happening is key, right? Because with the advancement of COVID-19, many of us have been reading our news feeds or the paper or just watching the news more often than we have previously. Because the information is always changing and, you know, what, like what's said earlier, what's true today might not be true tomorrow. So it's important for you to do that. Also understanding that now's a good time to be willing to evaluate and assess flexibility, right? You know, we all used to do all these things and, you know, used to be you have to come to class. You have got to be in class for this whole period or all this kind of things, you know, you have to do this. And these are the ways that things are done. But with the onslaught of COVID-19 creativity and, you know, fluidity have like, you know, changed things. So being open to that and understanding that listen, you know, the way it was done, it's always done. Does not have to be the way it's done moving forward. So offering alternatives and saying, hey, listen, I just was thinking about, you know, this idea to see if this would be possible and running it past your teacher or your instructor or the dean or what have you and letting them know, hey, listen, you know, this is why I think it's beneficial. Not only that, you know, reminding them, this is unprecedented time, you know, so I just wanted to mention it to you to see if we could, you know, if there was any wiggle room in the expectation so that it can be, you know, convenient for you, but also allow me to explore some alternatives that, you know, hasn't always been on the table. So that's, that's the way that I would see it. Yeah, that's my perspective. Yeah, I think that's a really good insight and honestly really good advice to anybody trying to go through this college decision making process. Like I, you know, selfishly, I'm very thankful I don't have to do that right now, but I think your advice is really good. Just staying up to date with the changes because like for all we know, everything that we talk about on this episode of the podcast could be irrelevant tomorrow because of coronavirus. But then that idea of that wiggle room, I think is really smart too, because you might be able to have a much more flexible schedule than you even imagine. So let's turn now to the prospective college student on the call Leo. So Leo, what do you think is going to be the biggest changes for you as far as like your college search process and application process. Well, a few last college tours, I guess, which isn't the worst thing in the world. But a lot more emailing, I would say, like I, that's like I in general, the biggest change in coronavirus, like, you know, I tried to keep up with my email beforehand, but now it's like, you know, a necessity. You have to always be checking your email or sending emails. I guess one example is I personally am interested in history as a college career and even more specifically medieval studies in history. And so before coronavirus, I was actually planning to go and go to some lectures at the U of M and some other schools I was planning to see what their history program was like. But now, of course, all those lectures are canceled because of coronavirus. And so then recently I've had to on my own go and kind of search through the website and find the emails of like some of the professors or. The heads of the history department and then email them to find out how I can connect more and see about what kind of program they have. And so now I'm actually going to go to a couple online lectures through zoom. So I think that's been different. You got to you got to email a lot at doing a lot of stuff on the websites and all of that and then find different ways to interact with kind of the colleges and see what they're like and all of that. Yeah, no, I think that's that's yeah, I mean emails might be you know the new form of speaking up for yourself and practicing self efficacy in the age of coronavirus. And I think acknowledging that and like I once said kind of staying up to date with any other method that you can think of is going to be super super useful. And I think that's awesome how you got to sort of make that switch from maybe attending those in person lectures to still doing what you want to do with those lectures. But in a virtual sense and I think that's another excellent application of like this theory of self advocacy. Actually happening and actually happening with students in Minneapolis. I have one last question for you all but before I move into that last question in this last piece of the conversation. I do just want to open the floor up to any one of you Leo Allen or Josh if there's any other questions that you have for each other any other lingering thoughts. You know Leo I know it's the fall of your senior year we do have you know a seasoned project success veteran in Allen and we do have someone who works at at a college if there's any questions that you have for them. Now would be a great time to ask those or Allen or Josh if you've got any other thoughts that you want to throw out to the group. I guess I would have a question for Josh because I get a massive amount of emails from college admissions offices. And my question would be how do you send all of those all of those emails. Yeah that's a great question every college has a different way of reaching out but for every student that reaches out to our college specifically in real time an email shows up in my inbox and I always try to follow up within a few minutes that email request and just introduce myself and then offer to follow up with a phone call or a Zoom conversation. Because you know as I'm enjoying this conversation that we're having you know the kind of a foundation of all this it's all about relationship right it's all about it's not as much like I've got to get what I want it's like help me discover what you have to offer and if this is the right fit right and so sometimes when you're maybe your inbox is getting pounded with tons of emails from lots of different colleges it can feel maybe impersonal. And so my goal is to say you know I'm here as a guide and I'm not trying to sell you that you have to come here but rather what about five minutes of just talking over the phone or zooming so that I can really share what we're all about and if we're good to go. Let's go from there and if we're not hopefully you go away from that conversation Just a little more motivated to run out your dreams even if it's gonna be difficult, right? Awesome. Thanks. Thanks for that. All right. So I've got one last question So this has been a great conversation and I want to end by asking you all to give one final piece of advice to current students on how to incorporate self-advocacy and self-ethicacy on their own college journeys What is one piece of advice that you would give to those students on how to start doing those things today? so I would say one of the benefits One piece of advice. I mean you're already taken right in the olden days as Josh said when I first met Adrian I think she was a facilitator at that time at North, you know, just just Recalling the energy and enthusiasm and resourcefulness that she possessed, you know like like just being one person and Having so many resources and knowing of so many resources like that goes a long way, right? Because when you are willing to put in the time when you're willing to put in the effort to say you know what These are some things. This is a college I'm considering going to let me look at options for you know majors and all of those things. Let me let me Become more familiar with general financial aid packages that they offer when you're studying You know application fees trying to get those things waved all that kind of desk You have to not have to but it's better for you to have like Knowledge about it. Oh, well, I see that this is the fee. I see that, you know There's been times before and certain circumstances where you waved it Would this be an opportunity for me to qualify? So having that knowledge on the back end it makes you more Studios number one number two it communicates to the person that you're talking to that this person is knowledgeable So it lets them know. Okay, let me just put everything on the table that they don't know because they already know a lot So more than likely You know they're coming to the table with a knowledge base. So doing that research Especially with the advent of Google. It's pretty simple for the most part You know just jotting down a couple notes and just retaining that information to be able to Really have a foundation for that conversation about listen. This is what I learned Is this information still accurate? Is this still available to me? Is there something I'm missing? What addition? Questions questions are a powerful thing in the arsenal of a person who's trying to advocate for themselves You're not demanding you're not you know being forceful, but you're posing questions to try to understand the full scope I know there was a long way around But yeah, that would be my last piece of advice Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, I think that's a great point questions are The key right? Josh how one's advice ties in perfectly before he started talking the word Curiosity popped in my mind and I would say let yourself be curious Beyond what you think you should be curious about so for example Every time somebody comes for a tour at our college. I tell him do you have an extra 15 minutes when you leave our college I would encourage you drive around cloke check out the community. It's beautiful right? Especially if somebody drove one two three hours to come check us out You know whether you say hey, this is my dream college or hey, this maybe isn't the right fit for me Like let yourself be like a child and curious and inquisitive and and learn other things because Learning is all about making hooks or making connections and so okay Maybe you cross one college off your list But you just found a place that you'd like to go vacation someday or 15 years later Maybe that's a community that you'll actually Move to and find a job in so just stay curious Thank you Josh. I think that's great Leo Yeah, for me it would really be Kind of the worst that can say is no pretty much There's very few situations where asking for something will ever get you anything worse than Just know and just knowing that and Knowing that that's the worst can happen makes asking for help For aid for something you need a lot less scary just the worst they can say is no So you might as well ask for it. You don't have anything to lose Would kind to be my piece of advice concerning self advocacy for everybody fabulous That is all the time that we have for today Thank you Leo, Alan and Josh for taking some time to talk with me We want to encourage all of our students to continue diving into all the resources out there and to continue creating and refining your own Questions and curiosities and conversations about why self advocacy and self efficacy are so important I'm Kyle and this has been college conversations (upbeat music)