Collective Curiosity Podcast: Episode 34 - Terry Dickman

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Collective Curiosity podcast with your co-host Nate and Ty. On this episode, we met up with Terry Dickman at a coffee shop in Sioux Falls and picked his brain on a couple really interesting topics. Some of those topics include dualistic concepts of bean, a pretty deep one. The second one is why most people argue for their limitations and then what it means to fall asleep and being woken up in a deep sense, not actually like sleeping, but we're going to dive into all three of these conversations plus more in this episode. We really think you're going to want to tune into this one set aside some time so you can listen to the episode and take it all in, but without further ado, here's the episode. It's already like a reflection of the assumptions of other people. Is there a format? Is there a question? Is there an overarching question? Yeah. So essentially we structured around three main questions, it's supposed to be three main questions. It's really now devolved to two. We kind of ask two main questions and we'll ask it and I ask the first question, it opens up the floor of conversation and then usually Nate and I will ask follow up questions along the way. Really it's an opportunity for us to get to know you all better and for our listeners to get to know you better, how you think, how you operate, what's on your mind and what makes Terry Terry actually that's the first question. So we'll just open up with that. So given the world we live in, given kind of where the society we're at, the societal expectations, all these things, we have these opportunities to essentially define ourselves. And in that we know maybe this definition is going to change, it came from something else, it started somewhere else, whatever past future current, but right now in this moment as you sit across the table from me, feel free to describe, tell us, tell us who you are, who is Terry. That's an interesting question, who is Terry? I think we use so many labels and I first of all, Terry's not who I am, that was the name I was given to my mom and dad and I happened to land in the town called Sioux Falls, South Dakota in 1958, but does that really define who you are? It's the first label you're given, you're given all label that you're gender boy, you're a boy and you're born into a family of two young, struggling people trying to raise a family, starting a family. They give you a name called Terry and you eventually have some siblings and they have some names, so your first question is who are you? I mean I could give you the biological, you know, the bio, you know, 64 years old, I'm married, I have three kids, they're, you know, I've got a couple grandkids, I live in Sioux Falls, I work for a credit card company, but those are all logistical kind of questions, been on a premier bank card for 15 years, but is that who I really am? What's your thoughts on that? That's more so up to you to determine? Yeah, to me, it doesn't define who I am, I mean those are like handles, I think, in a short term, when you go out and have the meat and greets and like, what do you do? The first question is usually, it's interesting, if you might have read the book, The Little Prince, and it's an interesting book, but there's a line in there where the one person was talking and he was talking about our obsession around numbers, we'd like to define people by numbers like, I'm saying I'm born in 1958, I say I'm born, I'm 64 years old, I say I'm working at premier bank card for 15 years, we do a lot of things to define and quantify or qualify, we talk in terms of, I think, trying to identify people's financially, we kind of peg people financially, are they above us or below us, have they been doing what they've been doing longer or shorter, do I have an expertise that they might have, I think we're always in a comparison game. So I think when people start asking questions like that, I think they're trying to not intentionally pigeonhole someone into something, but I think they're trying to get something that they get their hands around, and then based on that, they'll know how the conversation's going to go, am I one up or do I need to take a step back or do I come in, do I pause, do I engage, but I think it gives us a place to start from. Can we wrap it back in then and say, then who are you? Because I mean, you don't have to do the quantitative labels if you don't well. What is the transient thing that is Terry at this moment? Well, the good news is we've actually had so many conversations amongst the three of us over various times, and certainly you and I had that long conversation. But I may get his name wrong. I think it's T. Darshanan, he was a Jesuit priest, and he had this saying that said, we're not humans having a spiritual experience, but rather we are spiritual beings having a human experience. And I think that's kind of the fundamental place to start is, when you ask the question initially, I started answering it as if I'm giving you the human answer, but the really the highest answer is I'm a spiritual being, having a human experience. And in that human experience, I got dropped into this timeline into Sioux Falls in 1958. I'm currently on that same timeline at age 64, and I've been married, I've been married twice, I've got some kids, so those are things that have happened in my human experience. But in that human experience over and above all that, I'm actually just a spiritual being having an adventure. So how do you feel like you got what gave you the information to land at that point? Because some people might hear that and say, I have no idea what that even means. So what information did you grab that had you land at kind of that place in your life? Because I assume you haven't thought that way all 60 years of your life, right? So I think I've always been on a spiritual quest, kind of like my handle is it where I used to when I had a motorcycle, it had a seeker on it. So I just been kind of a direction of my life is always trying to seek the thing, trying to find the thing. I'm a lifelong learner. I've spent just a great deal of times in workshops, seminars, and avid leader, a reader and love podcasts and what I'm watching those type of things. So I'm looking for something. So I think that's a good question, Nate. So how did this go about? So even as a teen, I was interested in more who I was, what was going on. But frankly, I mean, I'll just be doing a really transparent today. This is very, very few people know this. I actually, GED, out of school in my junior year, came in after Christmas break and I was just dunged and here I love to learn now, but in that place in time, back to place in time as far as that passage, I just didn't feel like I was getting what I wanted out of school. Had there been schools that we have now where they were very focused in a certain area, I love theater. I would tell the principal, if I'm skipping school, you can find me in the theater. I wasn't like I was gone from school. I just didn't really want to do geometry or biology. I wanted to be in the theater building a set and working on lights and sound and such. And eventually I GED, and joined the military. Did that for three years and that period of time I got married, as I mentioned, with my first marriage, two kids. And so the question of where did that come about. So along the way in my late thirties, I would say, you could categorize me if I want to put it back into like a box, I would have said I was been a fundamental Christian, you know, had a little bent towards the pen and castle and the charismatic. Still love that type of spiritual experience. Every boxed in and then I had, I don't know if it's chance encounter or that it was divine, but I met a guy who was a pastor in Colorado Springs and he suggested a book. I mentioned this the other day when we talked. The book was Velvet Elvis and the title of the book is like what? And I read this book and I tell people, and I've given out, I've given, I don't know probably 15, 20 of the books, copy that book's out, book, book out. It was so impactful to me. It was one that I would tell people I said, I would be reading in bed. And this is more than anybody needs to know, but I'm going to say it because I think it's just gives you the propound is, I would be laying in bed and I'd get up standing naked in my kitchen, reading a passage out of this book is it. It's so like, wow, I'm just going to share this with my wife. But I think what it started to do is it just, it began not to tell me what I was thinking was wrong. And I think that's one of the challenges that we were trying to have people see what we see, we end up kind of inferring what they believed to be incorrect and that what we now believe to be correct. But to your point before we started the podcast, it was more like it was presenting something that began to create a question in my mind. So that led to several authors and it kept on going deeper and deeper and deeper. Another in that same late 30s, early probably early 40s, I ran into a friend of mine, we were talking about the idea of being fearful and she said, I think you really need to go to landmark forum, which was the new iteration of an older workshop that was called, back in the day, it was called S-D-E-S-T, it was run by Warren Eckhart, it was experiential. And that workshop was incredibly intense and very, very structuring for those that have gone through it, understand what I'm referring to. But it was designed to get you to this last day, which was on a Sunday, in the afternoon, was kind of the climatic point of the entire workshop. And it is three days and then it has a follow-up fourth day. But on that third day, you have this awareness of being aware. But all of a sudden, for just a moment, rather than being kind of in the machine or the automatic pilot, the robot, the hamster on the wheel, you have just a momentary understanding, or sense, not an understanding, it's not an understanding, although it might be insight. You sense for a moment that I'm more than just Terry 58, at that time, I was probably in my early 40s, as I said, but you sense yourself, but not as yourself, if that makes sense. So you start to get this little bit of an awareness that most people don't have in a sense of it. Adding to that, I'd give this one piece that I've shared with several people was in the movie. It's called "Jovers" as the volcano. Do you know the movie interview? No. It's Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan. It was done by Spulberg. It was actually, I think it was a commercial flop, but there's a moment in the movie, I don't destroy the end for those of you who haven't watched it, but it is a very good movie, not because you're not going to watch it like it was just a great cinematic experience, which you're going to maybe catch it, but the character that Meg Ryan plays is she's sitting floating on the ocean and talking to Tom Hanks and she makes this comment that my daddy says most people are asleep. And so I think what happens in life for most people kind of gives me a shot of what I think about. That most of us are asleep, we're asleep on our beliefs that we've never challenged, we're asleep in our patterns of behavior, when I go to a restaurant, I tend to order the same kind of food, I tend to order the same kind of beer, I tend to order the same kind of drink, I kind of order the same kind of clothes, we kind of lock into certain patterns. And I think that's because we can become a sleep into that rather than becoming aware of it. After this workshop playing on that, my daddy says most people are asleep, was in that workshop, there's a moment where you're like, you have a sense of yourself, but not in the course of being yourself, and that makes sense. It's hard to explain, you see yourself almost removed, not an out-of-body experience kind of thing, but rather you know that you're not your body. And you actually, in that moment, recognize that you're not your thoughts. And there's another piece that I hold to be true that we're not our thoughts, but we're the thinker of our thoughts, and we're not our feelings, but we're the feeler of our feelings. And that space for which we're the thinker, the space for which we thinker, that we sense our thoughts, rather than thinker thoughts, that's what that workshop began to bring out was more of an awareness. So to your point, never didn't start off that way, it began to unfold in the 40s, in my 40s part of me, and then it just gone deeper and wider, and then it's just trying to get more of that understanding at a deeper level. And did you feel like, did you have the sense like, oh, I've been sleeping on these things, like I've been asleep in these things in my life, and I want to change that? Or. I didn't think it was more like I had a sense that I wanted to change something. I think it was that I was just drawn, like I said, the fixation as a younger person, like I said, even as a child, was always that curiosity and seeking. So I think it took it, that it was always seeking, and then you had this awareness that you're aware, and then that goes deeper, and so I think all that did is it, it maybe shifted the path that it was on a bit, but the seeking was still happening, but it was more for the experience of a greater understanding of the depths of our being, the idea of the ground of being, or our way of being, who are we before our thoughts, who are we before our feelings, that space, which I believe to be whole-perfect and complete, so that's some people will break with me on that and go, no, there's original sin, and there's just certain things that have come up for me to be more true. Now, I use true in the small sensitivity, because it's always going to be based on my bias. There's absolute truth, but I don't think I can grasp an absolute truth. I think that by definition, truth is beyond my comprehension. At the very best, I can maybe have a sense of the direction of where my wife could look for it, but I could never describe it, because as soon as I put my words on it, it is now escaped truth that has not become a truth that Terry is telling, which is not the same as truth anymore, because it's going to come through my filters, my perspectives, my biases, my cultural, my upbringing, all of that. But I think I've always sought that sense of what is larger than myself, and in seeing that, I see that maybe more as it reflects back to that, I'm okay. So I'm going back to that. There's fundamental peace I said, I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. That would be one principle. I would use principle instead of truth, that I hold to be true for me. Another would be that I don't see that, I'm going to use a medic before, because some people believe it to be true, that there was a seven-day creation and everything that they've read in their spiritual literature is absolute truth, and for them that is, for them, they're truth and I'm not saying don't believe otherwise. But for me, I see it differently now, and I don't see the creation story as a creation story of original sin as some people see it. In fact, what I love about the story, there was six different spaces in the story, allegory for me, and on every one of those days, the creator said that everything was good. And on the sixth day, which was even cooler than all the others, on the very sixth day, he declared that everything was very good. And I actually hold that that's true, that everything is very good. Now, that doesn't mean there isn't murder, rape, and disease, and death, and all the tragedies for which life unfolds for us, that's all real, that is something we experience. And in all of that, the thing that holds all of that together, is still very good. And that's different than coming into the conversation that I'm broken, that I'm less than, that I'm incomplete. Now, did I still live in that space in my head? I do. I live in this space that I need to be fixed, but when I pull back out of my head and come back, I get to a space where I go, that's something that I've been conditioned to believe, or race to believe, but actually behind all that, I'm actually whole, perfect and complete. So I don't need to be fixed, I don't need to be redeemed, I don't need to be restored, I do need to realize that I'm okay. Yeah. So, do you feel like the sense of seeking comes directly from still believing that you're not whole, perfect and complete? I mean, do you think like, if you ever got to the mindset where you actually believed you were whole, perfect and complete and nothing else, that the seeking would stop? That's a good question. I think it would stop in the sense of looking, it's almost like dialectic that I'm talking about, I'm whole, perfect and complete and yet I'm still looking to be fulfilled. That seems like, counter-intuitive. I think the, the essence is you would get to a place where you're, it's like you enjoy the journey, but you're not looking to be healed, it still, it still not becomes the process and less about, I need to be fixed, but rather, I'm just enjoying the process of the discovery. Yeah. Well, and it's probably like, you're, at that point, you're probably able to recognize like, if you are as close as you can get to whole, perfect and complete, realizing that the journey of curiosity brought you here. And so why stop the journey that brought you to where you are today, right, like and so it might be natural to continue. Yeah. And I still go to that place of whole, perfect and complete, and we had to do this piece that premier again, something in the leadership that we did. And I don't have a memorized, but I used to have it in my photos. But it basically says that I believe that all of us have a touch of the divine in this. So that, by definition, we're all, the divine exists in all of us, the energy that animates us that brings us, I mean, I'm not beating my heart right now. I mean, I'm not digesting the muffin that I just ate, and that's not happening because Terry's got a logical input, okay, you know, do this enzyme and do whatever this acid I have, how that's unfolding inside my body right now. I have no idea the breath that I just drew an exhale, I wasn't even aware that I did it when I did it. There's something behind all of that, that divineness that exists in me, exists in all of us. And if I, if I were to say something that I'm currently, I don't know, focused on the right word, but I'd like to just reflect back to others. And in doing so, I'm reflecting back to myself, that we are all a touch of the divine. We all have the spiritual peace of us who we are. And if you want to live in the game as a word that, you know, I'm 64 and I have the three kids and I'm married and that becoming the kind of the part that I'm playing. And inside of that part, can I still have a blast knowing that, just a spiritual being, having a human experience and I'm not broke needing to be fixed, changes the perspective a little bit, changes the way in which you look at it. So you can still enjoy the journey, but you're not going because I'm broken. I need something, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I've got like six different questions we could dig further into. But I think one that would be probably a good thing to explore deeper is when you were talking about the quote, the most people are asleep, quote, and not to say that any of the other things we have been talking about are not great. They're all wonderful and I think, you know, it really gives us a sense of a bit of the journey that you've been on, both kind of physically, spiritually and everything in between. I think the question of most people are asleep and most people aren't maybe digging into some of these philosophical, I suppose is just the best compass word for all of this. Some of these philosophical thoughts, some of these transcendental thoughts, some of these spiritual thoughts of who I am, what I am, who I is, what I will be, et cetera. And so you mentioned that part of this reflection came from the realization of taking a step back and seeing yourself as you're Terry, but you're not Terry, hard to define thing. But I get it kind of not necessarily out of body, but that concept. And that helped to kind of see you, I guess, more holistically, unless of being trapped in that moment, and even that experience in itself sure could have been tainted with some subjectivity of your experience and bias and such. But really what I think we can explore is that moment and maybe what led you to that moment or what helps you to achieve that moment, like either through the workshop or just through personal practice, because I think a lot of folks could use, they could use the alarm. They could use the buzzer in their ear to wake them up. They could use the little nudge, the little shake. I don't know how your parents woke you up when you were a kid, but sometimes my mom would just grab my toe and just wiggle my toe. So like some people need to see, need the toe grab and the toe wiggle. So like what, you know, what wiggled your toe, what kind of helped that perspective, that mindset, that what was kind of a big triggering moment or maybe, you know, if you remember or if you can recall something like that or what you think would help someone to find that or wake up moment. I think most people argue for their limitations and I'm clear, first of all, all that I'm saying here, I haven't got this all figured out. This is just a journey that I'm on and the things, the thoughts that I dance with, the feelings that I feel, the what I'm reading, clearly it's getting deeper and more robust, but it's not that, oh, he's figured it out, I'm far from figuring it out, I'm, I like to tell people that I'm just as messed up as everybody else that work. I tell, I tell the staff at work, I said, you will not make any more mistakes than I have. First of all, I'm further down the track and I've done more just in the fact of my own personal life and history and choices and mistakes and some of them very, very messy and sloppy. So to your point about how did I get there in that place about waking up, I think most people would argue for their limitations, this goes back to conditioning. Someone would argue that they want, that they would argue, this is a little bit to the point that you brought up, you shared something with us before we started this in yesterday, but some of us would argue for our limitations to the point that they've imprisoned themselves in their argument for their limitations, but they're the ones in prison themselves. They're so adamant that what they're saying to be true for themselves, that they cannot see that they've created a prison of their own thinking, that they cannot escape. And what would, like, what's an example of, that comes to mind when you say, like, limitations, like somebody puts a limitation on themselves that puts them in jail? Well, that's just the way I am, ways of habitually being. So are we our habits? No, we default to our habits, habitual ways of thinking, the way, if someone is always three to five minutes late and you try to tell them that that's unproductive for those that you're, you know, you're finishing on our time as far as you're showing up late, they would argue that that's just the way I am, right? But is it really, so this goes back to your very first question, who are you? And I was just being, I wasn't being flippant, but I was, I wanted to, I want to come into the conversation that I'm not Terry. I'm, I'm actually, and here's though, we've been, we'll go even a little deeper and is a bit, I'll come back to your question about the awake piece and how do you nudge somebody? But at a deeper level, as you and I, you know, the three of us are talking, we're all connected. I, I am, and I'm not, you know, we get down to the physics and the whole, I mean, down to quantum physics, but I'm talking, I believe that we're all connected. Now, I don't always operate in that space. I mean, I recognize that you and I are separate from, you know, I can see you there. And I know that you're separately showing up for me, Nate. Yep, you could touch him. He's there. If he would have punched me in the face, I would, he's not by little like that. But if he did, I would feel his face on my cheek or my face or my, I would have that landed, but I would feel it. But even in that, he's still a part of me in terms of energetically, spiritually for me. So people argue for their limitations. I, I think we get locked into our, like I say, our habits of being the way we were brought up. If there's a way to maybe do it, it might be, and it's not like meditation that's not it. I think it's the example of just pausing enough, just a moment of pause enough. And can you have a sense of yourself seeing yourself while you're pausing? That sense that sees you while you're pausing, that sense is really who you are. Because that's, it really is your consciousness to have the awareness of you sensing your body right now, sensing your thinking right now, sensing your feeling right now. That awareness, that is a sense of, that is, I would describe that as consciousness, that's your awareness. And I think people don't get into that space enough. And we're in the biology of our body, you know, we're going to do what we need to do to sustain ourselves and take care of ourselves and food, family, work and the normal things that we do. But to the point that we can slow down a bit and sense that I'm not all of that, but I'm what recognizes all of that. And that is where we're fundamentally connected. But that, to me, is awareness or consciousness. So how do you wake somebody up, perhaps getting them to pause just to stop a bit, to recognize what they're saying to be true is not true. This is another one to people go, I have the truth. And I'm like, first of all, I mean, that is absurd. You don't have the truth because you can't contain the truth. You can't grab the truth. And the fact that you hold on to it is just a really, really strong, habitual way of, you know, believing or thinking, but it's conditioned. You don't have the truth. Truth is not attainable. You can sense it. Maybe you can glimpse it. Maybe you can have a sense of where it might be. Not separate in sense of being, but you can have a sense of, I don't think you could ever grasp it. It's not something you hold. And it's not something that one person has no one else has. Do that point of waking up. Go ahead. I really appreciate how you explain that to in such a slow and meaningful way because as you were explaining it, my brain was like, all right, let's take a breath. Let's listen here. Let's be in this present moment. So I really hope listeners who were following along did the exact same thing, because I know that's exactly what I did. Yeah. And you can rewind and re-list some of that section I need to for a quick 30-second mindfulness moment. So I think, you know, you kind of tap into the idea of the lowercase t-truth and you tap into the idea of who you are in this conscious moment. So like some of the things that I think of, you know, some of the psychology terms and this is just what I go to because it's the way in which I kind of measure a lot of these things, helps me define them, helps me to kind of encapsulate them. Which to your point, right, is, in a sense, putting a limitation on what it is that this thing is. And I can respect that, but it's more of an operational function in less of a, I'm defining this as this. And this is how it will stay, right? So, but some of the things you bring up is like kind of that consciousness that executive control and that awareness, right? Which is, in a sense, it is you, right, being conscious and aware and even using, taking pull that consciousness that moment, it's present, like present awareness, you, is a lot of that, you know, executive function. But then you also talk about the idea of like the fixed mindset and the growth mindset, which is, you know, once you have set something as a definition and it is fixed, then how do we move into that growth mindset? And so you're saying presence can help you to get into that growth mindset by how exactly. So just being present, I agree with all of this and I'm not trying to like, you know, poo poo in your Cheerios by any means. I think this is all fantastic. I'm, I guess what I'm trying to say is presence seems like a part of this. And I'm all for it. And presence helps with that like awareness conscious part. Absolutely. How can presence help us move from the fixed to the unfixed, from the, from the set to the growth, right? And it, I'm just curious what, what you feel about that? Well, you, when you said something, what, what occurred to me was that when, most often, when we listen, and I'm, and I'm guilty of this 99.99, 99, 99% of the time that I'm a, a very poor listener, auditory leader, am I hearing you? Sure, I am. But am I really hearing you? That's a different kind of listening. But what occurred to me was that most of the time that we listen and, and while using listening, like, as a metaphor, but when we even read something or experiencing something, we're always doing a comparison. Does this match what I believe to be true? Does this disagree with what I believe to be true? Is this safe? Or does harm me? I, one of the things that going back when I talked about kind of the spiritual journey was there, I had what was described as naughty books. And this wasn't playboy penthouse. All those, those are amazing for those that might find offensive, I apologize, but I'm just being someone, someone, someone, I don't know that, but I had what was called my, I called my naughty book. So I had, I had my normal books of traditional teaching around, let's call religion, I'm just using religion, although that's not a word that works for me anymore. But I had books like that. But then I had books that were more things that I would be drawn to, but I put away or I felt like we're not appropriate. They're kind of like the taboo things, because they were challenging what I currently believed. And I felt if I went down that path, you would begin to start to crumble what I held to be true. And then where would I be left with? Right. That's scary. Right. Because we, I think the challenge with some of us, we hold some things to be so true that when someone were to say wake up or try to say something that would maybe challenge what we hold to be true, rather than kind of being vulnerable enough to stay in the space to say, well, what would it be like if I went there a little bit and explored that and then came back with a better understanding and deeper understanding? I think many of us are just afraid that we could lose something if we go the wrong path. And I'm talking about being reckless, and that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying that if you're conditioned to believe a certain way and then something starts to take you off that a bit, do I really want to go there and lose what I hold to be true now by following something else? So when we listen or when we read, I don't think we're reading to really grasp. I think we're really reading to compare to validate what we hold to be true. It's just something, not always, but to somebody. Sure. So you would say that what we should be doing is instead reading to challenge and not reading to confirm? I would move off the word should because there was that old expression that we don't have any shooting on us, but fair enough. I love words as you know. What would help to move from a fix to a growth mindset? What would arguably help move to it? I'm just going to add all the ambiguous languages. I didn't use the word argument. It doesn't have to be an argument. Terry as a human spiritual being and human experience would express as an opportunity to potentially move from fixed to growth would be to approach in the form of a challenge rather than a confirmation. You could make that question even more interesting. Like an ABC choice and we just do multiple guests on it instead of multiple answer, but as the teacher that you are, you know, structure the question and then have the answers. What do we do, Terry? What do we do with this? Well, so here's one of the critics me yesterday. I like the idea of pointers. Some of my Facebook posts I've been putting up talking about pointers and reminders. So I think oftentimes we think we're trying to tell something new, but in many cases, I'm trying to remind you of something you already know, potentially have forgotten. That's the falling asleep. So I have books all of in my office and I began to consider that when I buy a new book, I'm just looking for a new pointer because I'm never going to get to the truth by the book, but it might point me in the direction. So there's a story that some people, your listeners will know it, some of them will. The idea of a finger pointing to the moon. Have you ever heard of this analogy before this matter for this idea of pointing to the moon? Okay. So when I'm pointing to the moon with my index finger and I'm pointing to the moon, most people will get fixated on the finger, the index finger pointing to the moon and miss the moon. And some people will argue that their pointer is the right pointer. Christianity is better than Muslim. Okay. Zen is better than Buddhism. Okay. Okay. atheism is better than that. That's the pointer. Right. Right. So it's pointing to what it's that the moon metaphorically being the truth, the divine, which you're trying to find the thing. Right. Okay. So we start to argue for our pointer being the right one. Okay. We fixate on the pointer and we continue to miss the moon. So fair, so many of us will, we will argue for our pointer being correct in why we're arguing about that. The glorious moon is just there and we're missing it because we're arguing that our pointer is correct, that our pointer is the better pointer. And there will be wars about their pointer being the better pointer. People will fight over their pointer. We're talking about religious wars. People will fight over this. Mine is right and yours is wrong. Right. But we're missing the point. All of it's trying to do is point us back to once again the moon. In this case, the divine, the creator, consciousness, awareness, life, love, joy. I mean, we're missing what it's pointing to. And I think that's so back to you. You come back to this question waking up. And how do we do that? So I've spent time. When I'm now reading a book, I'm going, it's pointing me to something. But again, it's just something that's pointing me. It's not necessarily the answer. It's just pointing me to something. And hopefully if I follow the direction of the point, I might get a better sense of what that is. Rather than fixating on the book or fixating on the webinar or the training, but trying to get a sense of what's pointing me to. Can we go deeper into this or do you want to follow up in another direction? Because a thought that comes to mind then was at a certain, okay, so there's two questions on this with this moon and pointer analogy. Because I have, again, I absolutely love this analogy. I think it's great. And I'm also very similar when it comes to, we had our spiritual talk when we were having coffee, you know, I'm like, hey, it's all just about being good person, doing good deeds, you know, the divine spiritual, all these kinds of things, like how you point or what you're using to point is arbitrary, right? But that draws this question of A, is what is the moon, right? What is the moon? What is this ultimate thing that everything seems to be pointing at? Because is it the moon that we're pointing at just because everybody else seems to be pointing at the moon? Is it kind of a thing? Is it divine? Is it spiritual? And then the second question is, shouldn't we maybe be pointing at the sun? Right? Like, where should we be pointing? Right? And again, the sun represents the same concept, just different, just something different. Right, so like. And again, we could, one thing that I admire about you is you're very good about defining terms and directions. And although that might be important at some level, I think we're going off what it really is intended to be that most of us are seeking the truth and the thing that we're trying to find the truth with becomes the thing we fixate and we miss what we're looking for. Right, right. And what is the moon of the sun? Yeah. I know that's a little bit semantics, but and I know you're not even doing that in that sense, but it would be the same as I'm saying, like, the pointer is, we argue for our point to being correct, but then you could say, well, whatever you're pointing to, are you literally pointing to the right thing because the moon may be more important than the sun or vice versa. I think it's, it's neither the moon nor the sun, but it's back to waking up or awareness. A recent book, by recent, I mean, in the last decade, a book by Anthony Damello, phenomenal book. It's called Awareness. It just did great book. And it's back to this idea of being aware that we're seeking so much in the things, the tactile, the encounters, life, friendships, cars, houses, jobs, money, you know, all that. But the joy is not in those things. It's in our, it's in, it's, it's our awareness in us being with those things, but not the things. Let's go on a little bit further than this. This is, this is where I'm really dancing elately is. The difference is we think that things happen to us outside in rather than happening from through us, from the outside, from the inside out, pardon me, that it's actually a through process rather than in, it's coming from, it's coming from inside of us rather than the outside. We think the outside, things give us joy. We use happiness. I think joy is the inside job, but we think outside is what's making a difference. At work people will go, that customer made me really mad and I go, that customer can't make you mad. It's not possible. First of all, you're, why would you give your power away? Right? It's a digital line, bringing a, a, a, through an optic, you know, a cable, bringing it in. It's all it is is just noise bouncing on your eardrum. It's gonna, it's gonna produce something through a memory association and you're gonna have this image in your mind of this customer and you said that customer made you mad. No, wouldn't it be better for you to say, I'm mad at that customer. Okay? Now, I didn't say I am mad. That's what I'm gonna say. I feel mad. It's even better. It's even more refined because you're seeing when I am that becomes my label to who I am, but say I feel mad at that customer is empowering because it's coming from you because that's really where it is because no one's enforcing the feeling inside of you. No one's forcing the thought inside of you. It's being created inside of us, but we extrapolate that it's coming from the outside, but it's actually coming from the inside. So back to the sun or the moon. It's in material because how we are, how we're interacting with it is not those things. It's how we are being our state of being, how we are in our way of interacting with them. It's us. The things happening outside of me are not the issue. And then we assign feelings based on our thoughts about the things that happen to us, but we're really having a feeling of our own thinking to a circumstance, which is totally inside. And so it's like, I mean, it's, you're saying, there are definitely external stimuli that is happening to us, but it's, but it's catching that and saying, and catching your hand, looking at it, and saying, you're interesting. You're going to make me feel a certain way, I know, but can't make me feel anything, but then to redirect and say, I, we're not going to do that today though. Like we're, I'm going to take you, we're going to examine it, and I'm going to move along in a different way than I have in the past. I'm not going to let this thing create madness inside of me. I'm not going to let this thing create, you know, whatever we're trying to not have it create. I'd go on to refine, but I don't think it's that we think that it can't. It doesn't. It's always ours. Every, I mean to say it in the most like black and white way, like everything's our fault. That fault. It's not about blame. It's not about guilt. But everything that happens in like a good sense, not a bad sense. Like, like everything's our fault. Like, it was your say, yeah. Like, we are, like, we get mad at something. Like, it's not the person's fault, it's our fault. If we are happy about something, it's not the person's fault, it's our fault, everything. Responsibility. It's our responsibility. I feel like responsibility a lot too. But I want to avoid the word guilt and shame and blame and those things. But all I'm suggesting is the manifestation. We manifest. Right. Well, I see your point. There is a physical world for which I operate in, right? That is real. Like I talked about if I, if I'm in a car, I said, I'm going to feel the hit of the car in the body and the jostling. That, that is a real thing that would happen. But now how I would, how I would frame that in my way of being with that, how I'm being with that is coming from the inside. Right. Right. Because that, because if everything was circumstantial, then everybody would have the exact same experience in the same moment. Because we've been people that will be, you bring four or five people into a party and five, you know, four or come out. That was most amazing party that we ever been to. And one would come out. Well, that was horrible. I just didn't enjoy that at all. If it was specific to the experience, I mean, probably the circumstances, then it would all be the same for everybody. Right. Right. But it isn't. So it is, we bring to life what is happening circumstantially. But I don't think it has a blame. And I don't think it has a, like a guilt or a shame. Right. Because that makes us wrong and broken again. Right. And I don't think that's the space that I want to operate is from being broken. Maybe the experience didn't serve me, perhaps, the way I thought about it or how I dealt with it. But I don't think that makes me wrong. Because I think we're all operating the best that we can with our level of thinking. We're all operating the best we can with our current level of thinking. Right. Because that's where guilt and shame often comes from is looking behind us and saying, like, I wish I would have, I could have now that I know I would have, you know, look hindsight bias, you know, right. And that's where we get convinced that we're maybe broken in some instances. Like, we should have known better. That's great. So we're kind of flitting around this line that I, at least what comes to mind for me, like, again, I get it. The disconnection from the self, from the experience, like, it is absolutely a thing. Right. It's like an appraisal value. It's an opportunity to say, like, things are happening to me. Right. And then as they're happening to me, how I, I guess, process it, how I evaluate it, how I feel about it, all these things are essentially separate from that. Right. Like, and my ability to reflect on these things is separate from some of this. Yet, there's no denying that we as, as people or our meat suits or however you kind of want to do this at that level. Right. If we're looking at this and operating in this world and operational level, we have the ability to change things in our environment. Right. Like, it's, it's a large portion of what that conscious self can do and does is to, is to predict and anticipate how changes in our environment. Right. We'll be reflected or can change other things in the environment. Right. Like, this cup here now is now in a cord, which, if I move this cord, could fall over and make a mess. But over here, not so much. Right. The ability to do that to make this prediction of manipulation, whether or not it's real or will happen is a part of what this, this conscious is. And so to say that like, we're purely or completely disconnected from this space that is us thinking and reflecting on something and the space that is the experience, I think is, is missing that interaction that is bound to happen or that is, is clearly happening within. And I think that attributes to what you're saying is that kind of everything and everything and everywhere is all kind of together. Yet, operationally, that's much harder to, I guess, deploy. When you, when you were, when you were speaking there, that there was a part of me that, you know, like you move the cup over here, you'd symbolically moved it into the cord that you could tip over if you move the cord. But I think what happens is that most of us are spending our entire life trying to manipulate the outside. Just something to me. Sure. We're trying to get more favorable conditions for ourselves and whatever that may be. You know, so we're manipulating the outside, but we're wrecking because we're trying to make that seem, seem better for us, but that seeming better for us is really still a way in which we think and feel about it, which is still an inside position. Okay, there are people that make $50,000 a year that feel like they're in poverty. There are people that are making a million dollars a year that feel that they're in poverty. It's all, it's all subjective. So it's not, so we have, we have feelings about things that if we think we have more of it, we would be better, but in reality, we're already better and more is not going to make a difference. Says you. Well, that's right. Of course, it says me. That's why I would start off this conversation saying, don't take anything that I say as a thing for you. It just happens to be a thing that's working for me and I think things may be the wrong word, but there are principles, ideas, insights, items or thoughts that I've encountered that I resonate with that holds a small T truth for me, but there are people that will listen to this that go on, he is way off base. He, first of all, he said he went to original blessing versus original sin. Well, I'm off, you know, probably 50% of people have turned off the podcast. I'm not listening to him, you know, if I talk about pointers and how certain religions or people will fight for their pointer, well, there would be a certain people that will listen to that and go, I'm out. I'm not, that's not for me because I believe my pointer is correct and what, who is he to question that or someone will argue for their being in prison when this is back to that piece that you shared last night, that they'll argue for their, they're being in prison, but they'll call it their freedom, because they don't even recognize it arguing for their limitation in their thing is putting them in prison instead of allowing themselves to be free. So tell me, but I'm not here to change anybody, zero, not a none, but if I were to do anything, I would maybe just get someone to think enough or ponder enough or pause enough for their own reflection to go, well, could it be different, or is it different than I see it? Maybe that's the waking up a bit. And that's, I mean, it goes back to earlier in the episode where we were talking about resources and books and stuff like this, our, this podcast is literally that, right, like for somebody to listen to and to, they might not confirm what they currently believe and so they're unattracted to it. It might confirm what they believe and they're attracted to it. And then there's a, there's a middle ground in there where people maybe where it doesn't align with what they think they have the opportunity to say, I'm going to continue to consider what's going on here because I've never heard about some of these things and I would like to consider them and some people aren't willing to consider it. And I think one other thing that we're not brushing on and maybe it's not important, not important, but like thinking about childhood in some of these things that we're talking about where people are in situations, back to what you said, like we are only doing, we're doing the best with what we have essentially at that moment. And to, we're not, I don't think we're discounting, but we're not talking about it all as like having somebody go through a traumatic childhood where they have zero control of what happens in those first 18 years, years have, have maybe not no awareness, but have limitations to how they can change, right? Like somebody hearing like everything's your fault out of my mouth might think like, well, not when I was five, not when I was eight, stuff like that. So it's, yeah, I think it's, I feel like we're talking about getting to a point in your life where you're self-aware enough to recognize like this, this is who I am. I have the ability to change certain things about me, but there are things that happen to me outside of my control at certain points in my life that I have the choice to try to do something with. Maybe it's not fixed, maybe it's not changed, but I have the opportunity to reflect on it, to see it, to sit with it, to not hopefully let it impact me as much as it has in the past, those sorts of things. You said fixed and you had, we talked about growth. Thank you for the distinction and that's the, the leaning, and again, this is still something that I'm fully dancing with and playing around with, and reading and studying and pondering and all that. There is a part of me for, I feel like I'm wanting to fix something that's been, that's been the life quest is to fix something that's broken, right? So when I speak the words of not being broken, being whole-perfect, that's an intellectual understanding and the current space I'm working on is to move that from an intellectual understanding to a transformational heart understanding that it's a knowing of knowing rather than a thinking. But I think you said something I really liked about, idea of fixing versus growth. I think that's just a very interesting perspective that if we're going into an idea that I need to fix something because it's not right because I'm, that I'm broken. We're talking about us now, not like a piece of wood that you're working on at the shop and it's not right. You need to fix it, but I'm talking about as humans. The idea that I'm broken that I need to fix something about myself versus I'm growing deeper to a higher understanding, a better understanding, becoming more compassionate, more caring, loving, more loving, more considerate, more patient. But I talk about more of a growth rather than I'm broken doing X and I need to do Y versus I'm growing into becoming more fully loving. Yeah, and it's just also as I think about somebody maybe being resentful or angry if I go back to thinking about childhood, somebody that had a shitty childhood, thinking I need to be fixed now because I now realize I had a shitty childhood and I had all this trauma that happened to me and I need to fix myself now. Whereas thinking just having a more empathetic point of view of it makes sense why I am the way I am based on what happened to me and being able to then move forward into that, right? To understand, it makes sense why I have the thoughts that I have, why I have the feelings that I have, why I think the way that I think based on my circumstance that I had bear little control over. But now that I have forgiven myself or whatever we want to call it, now that I have like accepted kind of the thing, then I think all the conversation we've had for the first hour can then be deployed into what we're all talking about, right? I think that's. I like your subtlety about the hour so we're probably getting close to it. No, we're not getting close, I'm just saying like, I mean, the first 45 minutes flew past, I looked down and I was like, oh we're 45 minutes into this, wow. But no, I didn't mention that in the way of like we need to wrap this up, but there's no time where we could probably take this conversation so much further, so much longer, so much deeper. But I am curious to change, change it up a bit. So you, you feel like you, I don't want to call it, you have this wake up, a version of a wake up type of thing in your 30s and 40s with this, call it a seminar event that you went to that change your perspective to a trajectory of what it represents today and away. And you've gone through LOT and so I'm curious since there's a, you know, 15 to 20 year gap between those two events, and I'm not saying LOT is the same thing as this event that you went through or similar at all, but I'm curious having gone through kind of this journey, what are some things that you feel like stuck out that were either new or maybe like timeless things that you found in LOT and then what are things that you are currently practicing that maybe didn't even come through LOT, but you recognize now like, oh, these are things that are taught in LOT that I do as a human being in this, in this world, or new things that you took from the content and now are doing in your life right now. It's a great question. Okay, I want to acknowledge, first I would, LOT was amazing, leaders of tomorrow. And what made it amazing was the cohort. It was the people, as we all know, each of our individual cohorts were going to be unique to our experience that we brought into it because we bring, we bring something into it. The cohort and the training is the training, but it's what we bring in and the interactions with others. That to me, that's what makes LOT, LOT. In the mechanics of LOT, and Tami and in body, I love you guys. You're awesome. I love your work and I really love what you're doing in the city of Sioux Falls and in the region and beyond great ripple effect. However, in my journey though, I bring up a really good question because I really want to explore this more is that it's still a matter of bringing information to us in an instructional format, ABC. Here's how you could make better use of your time. Here's how you can be a better reader, because I can be a better father, better mother, better employer. It's more instructional and nothing wrong with any of these. And this is not about wrong right, by the way. This is just dancing with some different ideas. But I know that I've said this in our conversations on Friday and Friday's an amazing place if anybody wants to show up for coffee and conversations. And I'm going to go back to fundamentally come back to stories that I grew up with with the story of the Burning Bush with Moses. And I've said this before, Moses didn't come to the Burning Bush with 10 examples on how to be a leader of the Jewish community. Actually, he was a murderer. He was outtending sheep. He's on his side of a hill and he sees this bush that doesn't burn. And he has an experience. And that changed him, that transformed him. This would be what the workshop that we referred to, the Astor landmark. It was transformation, it was experiential. If there were something that I would take LOT, and if you want to sprinkle what I think could be pixie dust a bit on it, would move it to an experiential learning, which makes it less intellectual and makes it more transformational, then we're moving into something I think that begins to really, it begins to extract the impact. Now, if you have never been exposed to things like LOT, which I have, I did a training with John Maxwell's leadership. Stephen Covey's Ten Habits, highly effective people, I think it's actually eight part of whatever it is. The point is, I mean, we can read Del Carnegie's book, how to win friends and influence people. I can talk to you about multiple authors and multiple ideas, cookie hunters, ideas in how you could be a better human being, a better parent, a better worker, a better manager, a better leader, a better, better, better, better, better, something instructional. You can go to church and find the five steps to have a better marriage. And these are, this is the normal way in which we learn somebody bringing something to us and giving us a format. So that's what to me what LOT was. Now, I went there because I wanted that because I still have this value in that. But someone made this idea that if I can Google to get the answer, then that's not really learning, that's like, I mean, you could learn almost anything with a YouTube video, right? For sure. But what you can't learn maybe on a YouTube video, maybe, is transformation, that experience for which something changes is different than just a new piece of data. We've got plenty of data. We've got plenty of instruction. And I would challenge that many people in LOT once again, it's a great program. People need to continue to go there. I'm, I'm, you're an advocate for it. I'm an advocate for it. Please just don't, I hope people don't misunderstand. I'm an advocate for it as a stepping stone. For some who've never been to LOT, you will find it phenomenal. For somebody who's been a lifelong learner, many of the things I've heard were things I've heard before. And that doesn't mean you applied it, doesn't mean you've mastered it, doesn't mean it changed you. And you can always relearn because that's the thing about workshop. I mean, every time I go to workshop, a good speaker at a workshop will say, I'm not telling you anything new. I'm perhaps reminding of something you've already met, something you've already learned before. Or even if you've never heard it before, but it echoes in you as having a resident, it's like, there's something about that, right? And that's what LOT is going to be for many people, right? And I would go back and mean I've done more than just the LOT. I went and did some additional work with Tamiya. And so to your question, what practice? For me, the practice wasn't in the actual material presented, but what I gained out of is an example. I would say the friendships that I have with you. I would say that the connections that I've had at the coffees, at the functions, to me, it became more about community for me and less about the learnings. I think that became the vehicle that we rode on for a while. But what I came up, I went to LOT, not for the vehicle. I went to LOT for the connection. I want to get back into the community. And I want to be around people that weren't where I worked that had a different way of viewing things. In fact, that's been kind of one of the things I'm working on, or stretching myself with, I'm trying to have time with people that I maybe don't agree with. Not that I'm right, but I don't understand where they're coming from, but I want to learn their perspective. So they don't get locked into my own bias 100% of the time, even when I in that I know I'm still got my bias. I'm just trying to explore other people's way of viewing the world. And LOT did that for me less than a particular section or time management. I will say power coaching that when they do some work for Premier Mankard, their power coaching for me has been transformational as it relates to my work. And that's a piece of LOT. Being able to communicate people with people. And I find myself far more patient. I find myself more calm. I'm now exploring some new steps for myself in a side hustle that I'm aware of that. I'm looking at doing some coaching and going into a world that I've always been passing with was being a speaker. So it's reigniting those things. Igniting. Spelt correctly. Great, by the way. What else do you have on that thought question? Yeah, I was also just going to know, like I don't think you said anything in there that would make somebody think like, oh, Terry's telling me not to do LOT. Just to make you aware, like I don't think there's actually anything you said in there that was like, oh, yeah, we might stay away from LOT. And my heart is I would anybody that could go through the LOT and make the commitment. And I think, and I'm not putting words in Damian and Damian and Vani's way. But I think the challenge with the LOT is how do we take what we're learning there and actually make it more impactful and we implement. And then it's there's always going to be the few that will do a lot. Some will do a little and many will just do nothing, right? This kind of, right? And you still have an impact. You can still interact and you might, you know, share a couple ideas. But out of, I don't know whether I'm maybe 200, 300 people that have gone through, if you were to go back and say out of that group, how many are making your larger contribution? Right, yeah, it's a small percentage. Small percentage of people, yeah, for sure. And that's life of anything, any organization, any type of training that there'll be a few that will do a lot and there'll be some that will do a little and very few that will do anything. And it's all based on somebody's expectations of what, you know, a lot is and what a little is and all that stuff. You know, somebody that can, yeah, that's beside the point. Well, are you coming to that? Here's one, remember, you're coming to get something versus are you trying to be able to come a conduit to be able to bring back out? So if you're coming in to be the, if you're trying to be the bucket that I get filled versus I get the bucket to water, it's a totally different perspective. I think many people are coming to get to that, not coming to get to give. Yeah, interesting perspective. Can you talk a little bit more about how you feel like the power of coaching methodology has been transformative? Maybe like the the Terry before, you knew about this strategy and the Terry after you knew about the strategy and the workplace of like, conversations and such. Well, I've had, I really will say like coaching is significantly better. And that that because you get the outcome because we base so many things on outcome, okay, can you check the box that there's an improvement? There is. But I think it's more back into the communication, the relational piece of it is better. Can you come into a conversation where, well, for example, this whole perfect and complete piece. I've had conversations with people and I'm saying what I'm bringing to to fix or to change or to correct has a zero anything to do with you. You are amazing, awesome and perfect and whole and perfectly, you are rock star. However, there are some things around your performance that we need to dial in or change. So I'm trying to make it not making them wrong because I think it's sometimes we it's hard to separate the behavior from the before, I mean, the person from the from the performance that if you think, well, my performance is lacking. Therefore, I'm lacking. No, you're awesome. But there's a few things we need to tweak on your performance. And I'm trying to make that separation. So I also find that I'm far more, I've always been I think complimentary and positive in some degree most often. But I find myself doing more, I'm talking about daily wins was something from LOTU because that was the thing we even do at the coffee. I start my team meetings at work with daily wins. I'm doing some coaching, some work at home staff and that are new to the team and start off still get done for their first night and instead tell me what your wins, how to go today, you know, want to hear what they did well. Yeah, trying to accentuate the good things. So I'm looking for the positive. I'm going for the behavior not the person. And another piece of that I would think would be had a thought and just escape me so I'll let you guys. That's right. Well, I think it's interesting and helpful to kind of marry the ideas we've talked been talking about of being able to separate ourselves and not identify ourselves with these things in life of our work and all this stuff. And even you as a leader being able to come into a conversation and say, look, we're just like things here working for the same organization. And there are things that this organization wants us to both do well. And I know I'm good. You're good too. But there are like things that that I need to change sometimes and you need to change sometimes to like make sure the organization gets what they want. And I'm going to come with a conversation about the thing that I want to talk with you about about like changing the thing we need to change to like make the organization happy. Like nothing's wrong with you. Like you're good. I like you. If now this were a thing, we'd be super good friends. We wouldn't be having this conversation now. But we both work for a thing that needs a thing. And I need you to do a thing to make the thing better. Yeah. It's like I needed a number in the little Excel box that says you did X, right? One of the things I like about my coaching and this was something I had but was just enhanced with LIT. When we get down with the coaching, whether it's a monthly one down or if it's a situation that's just on the fly or from a meeting, I will get done even in an annual review. I will ask those that I just gave those that coaching to say, okay, now let's flip it a bit. Not a bit, but let's flip it. Now I need for you to give me my coaching. Yeah. Because it's easy as a leader to tell someone what they need to improve. Right. Right. And I'll ask them at the end, I'll say, okay, here's your opportunity to give me some feedback because what have I dropped the ball on? What have I missed the mark on? How did I miscommunicate something that I could have done better? For me, it's also maybe I catch up. Oh yeah, you did ask me to follow up on that thing with HR and I forgot to follow up on that because in the moving balls, you know, the plates spinning and all that. So for me, not to have them to have the equal opportunity for me to be taught from their perspective, what I might be missing, to me, that's, it becomes a dialogue rather than me telling them what they did wrong. It could do better. Right. And even in the way of making somebody feel safe enough to be like, well, I can see that you're coming from a good place, giving me this feedback. But I would actually prefer that you give me this feedback in this way because I know that I personally take it better when it's delivered in this fashion. And then for you to have that information be like, okay, I can register that. I can, you know, change, it's not something. Again, I'm doing wrong. It's just something I didn't know. Right. And so let me give you feedback in this way that you know, personally, it is better for you. Right. Rather than waiting, you know, maybe it's in the moment thing. Like I want to be like corrected more in a moment. A moment, a moment's notice type of thing rather than every six months at my, you know, six month review. Right. So, yeah, so patients, I find myself, I think more patient just generally has really percolated up for me because I think it's less about an agenda trying to get something done. This is the other thing about coaching that is in addition to allergies, some of the other things I'm studying on that would be we're coming or trying to instruct someone how to change. And there might be some things that are like behavior. Like, oh, you should be on time. That's kind of fundamental stuff, right. But most of the things I think are trying to draw out of the person what they already have inside of them. It's back to education versus trying to push it in. We're trying to pull it back out or draw it out, draw out. So if I come to them that they already have what we're looking for, we just need to bring it out of them versus me trying to get them to do something. I'm trying to get them themselves to what to do what they do well and do it a lot. Right. Right. There might be something that that you need them to do in the workplace that they might not even realize and you don't realize that they do well somewhere else in their life. And like even to connect those like like actual practical dots of like when you're out in the garden and you're pruning the thing like to like match up like and the thing you do out in the garden is like the thing that I want you to do more of in the workplace. It's just you're not doing it. So like you're you're already hot like you're too good at it. You're already doing it somewhere like being able to connect those like real life practical dots of like I don't need to teach you anything new like we just need to turn up the knob here and like maybe keep everything else the same. Well, and then to I keep coming back I'm using more reminders. I talked about that earlier about pointers and reminders. So almost on a daily basis I'll put out something reminder you're awesome and amazing or reminder you're incredible. And I'm not being flippant or frivolous with that. I'm really saying because I'm not saying be great. I'm reminding you are great. Now, we didn't always show up in our greatness for sure. I've first and foremost in that line that they had of it actually. But the idea is to be reminded of our goodness. Reminded of our greatness. Reminded of our innate wellness. Are there things that that are showing up that are blocking that? Sure there are. If I have one last chance for a metaphor because I think we get close to time here. But the idea I have a brand new person. My team just bubbly perky. She's just just amazing. There'll be some things that we'll need to work on as far as skills. We'll need to be worked on. But I reminded her that if we use this again a metaphor of the sun being whole perfect and complete. The sun never doesn't shine. It's always shining. Even if it's on the other side of the earth and we're in darkness, the sun does not shine. If it does, we're done. I think it's eight minutes and this thing is over. But what happens though, things will come between us and the sun clouds, storm fronts, bad weather, the earth will flip around. But the sun is always shining. So my innate goodness and the innate goodness of all of us is that's always, always, always present. However, things will be our thoughts, will be like that cloudiness of like I'm having a terrible day or I'm depressed or I'm anxious or I'm a failure or today's not going well or Terry's disappointed in my thought, my performance. Those are just thoughts that are blocking out the goodness that's always prevalent. That's always there. So my reminders are aside from that fact right now, we can't maybe see behind the clouds. I want to remind you that behind the clouds, you're awesome and amazing. And I'm not using like like again, as it's a warm and fuzzy. I'm literally saying you're warm and you're awesome. Now, but we have things to work on, but I'm not coming from a place that you're broke and need to be fixed. Because I think it's a far better place to come from. I think it works far in it, not working in a manipulative way like I'm using it as a technique. I'm really it's kind of like you're you're awesome. Your way of being is incredible. But sometimes we let other things block that from actually showing up. Yeah, just assuming that if if we had no factors to consider in this world that our peer self would just be good. Right. And it's because of the external things that we have to deal with in life that present clouds and present a little bit of rain and present these sorts of things that we can't not be factoredless in our life. And that's just the world we live in. The challenge still is that we are thoughts or what give things meaning. Right. The thing does not have any inherent meaning. And even when I'm using the word that you're awesome and great. Actually, the thing actually transcends language and actually it's undescribable. So when we have what we put thoughts on things and thoughts and feelings and you know, the cards that I think therefore I am, I think that was there's the split between the church and you know the spiritual things and the the things of thought and intellect that are coming back together back in the holistic which I really hold that things are whole and not separate. But I even think what's happening now is that there's beginning to become an awareness that thought and feeling are not separate. They are actually two parts of the same thing. And we think I have this feeling, but if we trace the feeling back, you're really having a feeling based on thoughts. And your thoughts are manufactured. I mean, so is is a blue shirt the best color? Is that what your thoughts thought? So you weren't. But is that make it right? Is that the right color? I mean, I mean, but we think things and then we have feelings based on our thinking and then we assume that our feelings and our thoughts are fact. But they're not. They're things we made up. They're fiction. They're all made up. They're all manufactured. Everything's made up and the points don't matter. Yeah. There's Bethany and that one. Yeah, well, so we wrapped this up with a couple rapid-fire questions. Absolutely. Yeah. Great listening. Well, I wanted to, you know, thank you for some of that reflection. I think it's excellent to sit and listen to. So I don't want you to make it seem like I'm just sitting over here quietly. You know, absorbing and listening and trying not to go down too many rabbit holes. There'll be a conversation after the conversation. I mean, they're kept there can always be one. It's never over. It's just, you know, different time and place, right? Exactly. Exactly. Well, yeah, let's fire with some, we'll do some rapid-fire. So what we typically do then is Nate and I'll go back and forth. Just throw out a question for you and we want you to just try to answer as brain shut off as possible, right? Like, instinctually, like, here's this, here's why. Like done. And then we're not, we're not going to, well, we won't dig into it too much unless it's like something kind of ridiculous because some of the questions can be ridiculous. So Nate, do you want to start? Yeah, tap water or bottled water. Bottle water. Any brand specific? Probably, the one with the D, whatever that is. The sauna, you're crazy. Yeah, absolutely crazy. This is the sauna because I grow out. Is this the go-to's brand recognition? It's the water thing. I don't know why. Okay. The water thing. The water is serious. I just hate the sauna. Pick a number between one and 35. I'm going to give. We're going to let eight. Eight. You got it. So what's your best volunteer story? Best volunteer story. I mean, I don't know if it's best, but I did do some mentoring at Hawthorne. I felt like I was just like the rich uncle that came into my lunch and did chill, but it was good because I was working with an elementary student. There's no outcome. The outcome would be years later that you find that maybe touched your life of a child, but it was a fun experience. So Hawthorne underserved school for sure. Awesome. What's your go-to? Maybe not. I'm trying to think like what's the first thing, and maybe this is an inappropriate question, too. What's the first thing you do when you wake up? What's that from the other biological questions? Every morning I sit for 20 minutes. I shouldn't say every. Every's my goal is every day, but I sit for 20 minutes. I don't do it in total silence. I do with a bilateral headset moving beats right and left on my brain because I'm trying to be less left right brain thinking, you know, thinking and feeling, but trying to get those two to come together. So I do that for 20 minutes and actually do that same thing generally speaking almost every day over my lunch hour just, but I try to stop my day in quiet pause. It's not quiet, but probably reflection. Yeah, and then from there it's into the books that I'm reading. Nice, yeah. What's your favorite summer sport to participate in, and when I say sport? Really broad. Yeah, because I'm not a sports guy. You're going to be a sport a game, anything. You mean like, is that soccer when they hit it over the net? Or is that like cool? Anyway, I'm not a sports guy. In the past, I wrote motorcycle. I don't know if you could say that sport, but I enjoyed that. Learned out of five playing. I've scooped it. I've sported on a daily basis. You might, if there's anything, I might walk and I'll call that a sport. Fair enough. Are you outside of the Sony? Are you a brand loyal to any other things in your life where the devices you own, the clothes you wear? Weirdly, I like Apple products, and I don't know why I used to work for Gateway, so I was a PC guy back in the day and actually did tech support for three years. But I don't know, you know, it seemed like all the cool kids had Apple phones, and so I went that direction. They said, I have everything is Apple. It's true. All the cool kids do have Apple. Yeah, they do. And they interact really well. They do. What's your favorite meal to cook? At first, I don't cook. I used to cook. I actually, the very first meal, like, I made breakfast from my wife the very first time. We'll just call it the morning after. No, I wasn't the morning after because I would have still been there, but she kept my hair. She's a hairdresser, so she kept my hair in the following morning after she did it. I came to her house in the morning with the ingredients to make breakfast. I've done her door, tapped on her door and made breakfast for her. So that was the beginning of a relationship that will be 40 years this May, but the meal that I was known for back in the day was making chicken teriyaki, so I get it teriyaki. Favorite lunch spot in Sioux Falls? Kind of, I don't know about lunch. Lunch lunch. I like Joe's size just in general, just kind of as my, I know it's not lunch, but I'm more of a, for me, lunch is fast food and it's Taco Bell, so judge me if you need to, but that's my lunch almost, you know, kind of my go-to for lunch on my way to work. But if I were to sit down and enjoy breakfast, I'd go Joe's size really like the breakfast piece. I like green city. I just like the vibe that's there. It's a little bit more laid back than quite as busy as Joe's side, but yeah, nice. What's your go-to Chinese food order? I like to touch it, like spicy, and we'd go to the Golden Wall. Awesome. Do you still ride a motorcycle? Don't. I haven't for, since the last second of the Christ, there was some things I had to go financially, because I was, you know, some bikes on the garage that you rode, 16, 17, 18, times in a year, and you paid the insurance all year round, and the maintenance blah blah blah, and they were finest at the time, so we just can't lose to it. My wife had a, a spirit, and we had had a chief. When I have it again, I'd lean swords, yes, because I love the bike. I'd get up on a Sunday morning and take a ride to Okoboji and have breakfast there and to run to the lake and come back. It was just a great ride by myself. Cool. Good headspace. Good head time. Awesome. Would you rather be slapped or slap someone you deeply respect? Disregard, I would do neither. Terry's always picking the answers that aren't available. Right. He's gone options. Coffee black, or do you put all the things in your coffee? Black, I'm better cut it generally. Favorite yoga pose. Does laying down coat? Yeah. Full body stretch type of advice. Yeah, laying down. No. Favorite thing to do when you're feeling low on energy in like a afternoon during the week? You know, I close my eyes for a few minutes, take a nap. Usually listen to something very soft and, you know, melo just to chill for a bit. That's that afternoon. Relax. Nice. What is your current biggest unanswered question? Do you have that again? Well, you know, we talk about being whole perfect and complete. I'm wearing a T-shirt that says, "Love wins today." I gravitate to this idea about love, put a post up the other day that says, "All you need is love." If I can answer this one question that goes from a, from an intellectual love to a deep knowing of love, that would be the quest. That you truly, truly are not broken. That there is nothing that needs to be fixed. Not, you know, all this intellectual, but to really get it, like, oh my gosh, there's nothing I need to do. It's like I'm whole perfecting a plate. It's really living that space. That would be, that's, if there's a quest that I'm still, that's it. What's your favorite food to be cooked by somebody else? My favorite food to be cooked. I'm kind of, I'd put, I like Italian, generally, I also like Mexican, but I might go to probably, I could check an Alfredo, Cajun style. What's the first country you've ever visited outside of the United States or the next one you'd like to visit, whichever you prefer? Well, Canada was the first. That was a family trip north from South Dakota into, actually we lived in Seattle at the time, but Canada was the first country out. The one that I would like to, we're going to Spain and Italy. That's the trip coming up in May, but I think my go to, I'd like to spend some time, I think Asia, or there's a leaning towards Egypt, so it'd be cool. Like Egypt, because of the mysteries and the ancients. Yeah. Favorite genre of music, Tillerson too. Classic rock. Just give me like your classical rock. Well, there's a very well done. Yes, we always think ours is the right one. So I'm going to go for my actual favorite band is actually Pink Floyd and I love the lyrics. I love just the psychedelic vibe that the songs have, but I just love Pink Floyd. If Roger Gilmore and David, no, no, Roger Waters, ever, ever were to reunite. I've said, I don't care where they would be in the world. I don't care what the cost would be. I would make the trip to see them, because I regret not seeing them when I was younger. Yeah. I mean, that's, I think that's what a lot of bands are taking advantage of today. Yeah. Right. Like you see like the Blink 182 tour and just like the prices on some of, like just like there, I mean, maybe they're not on purpose taking advantage of it, but you really, they really make it look like they're taking advantage of it. Take a master is maybe taking advantage of the situation, but yeah, the miss the acts were making money too. But for you to say things like I would pay whatever price to see these individuals be together again in play on stage, like, yeah, people pay for the stable pay. Yeah, you know, I mean, I think I mean, I've seen the Rolling Stones twice. A lot of the classic acts I've seen. I took us to Sierra Smith last year, and then Stephen Tyler had some issues with going into rehab and kudos to him for doing that. But there's some things I just still want to see, but Pink Floyd will never happen as Pink Floyd. I'd see David Gilmore. I've saw it. I did see Roger Waters a few years back, but I'd like to see David Gilmore live. Favorite color to wear? I'm generally blue because you're blue eyes. Yeah, perhaps because my mom thought I was pretty in blue. Pretty strong. We're looking at blue. I don't know pretty soon. It's kind of weird, but nah, I just was always blue. People found that blue was my color. Nice. It is. You got the last one. I'm running out. You got your last one. Yeah, I did. Oh, you did. Oh, you did. Oh, you did. Yeah, I said, oh, shit. Set that up. And then you took my iTunes one because I was going to be like, what's on your iTunes right now? You went with you took this music one. So now I'm now your lost fumble in here. Oh, we got to think of one more. Regardless of how long it takes. If you could have something on your socks that you would wear every day, what would you have on your socks? Well, today there's skulls. Okay. So if you could only own one like design of socks that you could that you had to wear for the rest of your life, it would be skulls? Yeah, I think that I favorite author might as Peter Rawlings. He had mentioned always having something on your person that had a skull. And it's not a fixation of death, but it's the reminder that death is it's it's going to happen. And we live in an illusion that death is not we cannot run it. We can make it we can delay it. That it's not real. And it's not a morbidness. It's really just it's a respect that this breath that I just drew was a gift because I did not some people didn't get to draw it. So it's it's it's more of a reminder again. Yeah, nice. Well, thanks for being on. We appreciate it. Well, thanks for having me. We're yeah, we haven't had an hour and a half episode in a while. So we appreciate all the content. Well, I do appreciate you having me on it. I'd like to reverse the role sometime when I asked the questions of the two of you. We would love that. Podcast of flip the table a little bit. We hope you enjoyed this episode with our friend, Terry Dickman. And we encourage you to go watch, rather listen to some of our other episodes. And stay tuned for all of the future episodes to come. Thanks for tuning in.