Colin Kaepernick: The NFL Tried to Buy My Silence

We need a black face to put out in front and they tried that with the players coalition that wasn't successful and Jay-Z was the 2.0 version of that in my opinion. We're going to continue blackballing you but will you be the face of our social justice initiatives? And they offered this to me as well as Eric Reed and there was a nice price tag associated with that. I can imagine. So Jay-Z, where my jersey on SNL. So I had tried to reach out to him previously in part to say thank you at that point for the support. And we didn't take a call, we didn't take a meeting, which all good. Like, I'm strange but okay, I want to ask you like, why weren't you staying for the Star Spangled Banner? And give him full explanation why I'm doing it, systemic oppression, what black people have faced, what we're seeing right now and police killing black people. And I remember he's like, you know what comes with this, right? This is what now with Trevor Noah. It makes you feel like kind of way, man. It makes you feel like kind of way, but call him out. Thank you, man. Thanks for being here, bro. Oh, of course. This is great. I haven't seen you in such a long time. Oh, you see now in it. I'm in it now. I'm in it. It's funny because we would never say of course. Of course. So Africans, Africans would never say of course. You said welcome and you're like, of course. Then I'm like, God's not of course. There's no guarantee that you would be here, man. This is a big deal for us, man. This is a big day for us. Of course, I'm going to show up for you. No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Tracey Ellis Ross was doing her first show on Broadway, like ever. Someone said to me, you know, Tracey's doing her first show on Broadway. I said, that's not possible. Come be her first. Come be her debut on Broadway. It was. It was something I always assumed that it had happened because of how natural it seemed to me. Colin Kaepernick writing a book about his life was like, wait, another one. Exactly what I thought. No, genuinely, my brain went, I thought he wrote one. And then I realized you're just somebody who's been in the public eye, scrutinized at a level that few human beings will ever experience in their lives. Criticized, complemented, watched, observed, dissected, interpreted, misinterpreted. But I'm talking about on a global scale for a period of time that really most people will never truly understand. And it made me feel like I did read your life story. But now that you have written it, I'm like, oh, we don't know you. I would say it's fast name for me because the number of conversations that I have with people that initially, I'm like, oh yeah, I know all about you, I know your story. And my immediate reaction is like, you know, a small piece of it. Yeah. You know, the public piece of it. But even a lot of the public pieces that are out there, a lot of there, those are misinformation. A lot of those aren't factually accurate. So it's an interesting experience for me in talking with people because I feel like constantly I'm talking to people and they're getting a new version of me from what they're perceptual. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Which is like a, that feels like a unique experience. Is that, is that hard for you? Is it frustrating? How does it feel when people think they know about how you grew up? They think they knew what it was like, you know, for you being raised by white parents. They think they knew what it was like for you, you know, joining the NFL. They think they know what it was like for you, you know, almost getting into baseball, but they're not. They think they know what it was like playing at the 49ers. They think they know what it was like when you're kneeling for the anthem. They think they know what your romantic relationship has been like. They think they know how does that make you feel about interacting with people when they all have a preconceived notion of you? It gives me a greater appreciation for people who come in curious. Oh, damn, that's nice. That people that come in are like, yeah, I've heard what's out there, but like, can you share insight on X or Y? That really draws me in because I'm like, oh, this is different. Versus the conversations of, oh, yeah, I know these things. It's like, great, that's kind of like knowing the news. You know what's out there. You don't actually know the depth behind it. Yeah, it's actually happening. And for me, I kind of look at that as like, one, I appreciate that people were invested in that way. That they feel like they know that that much of me. At the same time, I love the opportunity to be able to have those conversations and have people step back and be like, oh, that's very different than what my perception was. That's rare though. I'm actually glad you said that because it makes my question very easy to ask now. Being raised by two white parents, how do they deal with your afro? At which point did they realize they're out of their depth? Where they were like, is this what it is now? Or is this the phase that's going to grow? And then what happened? So in middle school was the first time that I grew my hair out. And that was, you would think it was the biggest moment ever. And for me, in part, it felt like it was. What was it before was just constantly short? I'm going to be a lot of people that laugh at this. So growing up, it was constantly, they would take me a super cut. And we'd just get a buzz cut. Wait, wait, what's super cut? Oh, man, Eugene. Oh, boy, you're missing out in life, man. You're missing out in life, man. I've had my own traumatic experience with the barbers. So let me tell you, when I first came to the US. He was with Dominican barbers. You got New York. No, you just didn't know what the street is. But you just didn't know what you're supposed to do and not supposed to do. That's what you got caught up in not knowing New York vibes. So super cuts. When I first came to the US, I didn't know about this. It was a good introduction to it. This makes me so happy right now. I'm not alone in this. You feel thin? So first of all, I didn't know that you could franchise a barbershop. Let's start there. That's not a concept where we come from. Yeah, it wasn't a thing. There's not like franchise. A barbershop is a place where individuals who are interested in the manicuring of hair gather together. They form a collective and they have a specific vibe and idea of how they cut. So barbershop is also generous. Yeah, oh, yeah, that's true. So now super cuts. My man, I go in. I was visiting our friend David Meyer in Pasadena at the time. It was early days. Yo, I just go. You know, you just type in Google Yo barbershop haircut. Supercuts, I'm like, oh, supercuts. It really sounds like a good name. So I go through. Get there. There were like three people cutting here. Two of them were older Asian ladies. Which I'd never seen in my life. But I could not create. I wasn't going to be like, because I was like, clearly I'm in another country. So maybe here, just like the cut. Everyone. Okay, walked in. And then she was like, what would you like? So I was like, well, I had like a very specific haircut I was thinking of. It was a fade that I'm looking for. She was like, no, point there. Like McDonald's pick a number. That's what I'm going to do to you. My friend, she proceeded to cut my. When I tell you guys at a pace that I didn't know was humanly possible. With it, I've never had a foster haircut in my life. I've also never had a shitier haircut in my life. My brother. Good determine of how it's going to work out. My headline was, yo, my headline was in shock. My hair was it. But it was, it was like, she was efficient with it. Bam, bam, bam, done. And then for the next like two weeks, every comedy club I went to. I went to chocolate Sundays all the comedy times with the black people. They're like, yo, what's, uh, so this is how they do your hair and effort. And I was like, no, I'm going to cut my hair here. They're like, yo, yo, cause they used to call me Africa. And they'd be like, yo, Africa. Yo, yo, man, what would you do? Yo, man, what's that line up? Yo, man, who did you? When I said supercuts, guys were like, no, I'm just dude. Yo, supercuts, my friend. So I'm traumatizing. I would assume with the name, it means, no, my friend. The cuts are super. No, no, no. No, I can't believe how you were doing this your whole life. Like you, like as a kid, it was, it wasn't until I got to college. It wasn't until I got to college that I got actual barber. Colin, I feel like we're going to be working through a lot of trauma on this podcast. Yeah, I feel like I feel like that. rough. So you corrupt thinking supercat was normal until college, obviously. It was normal for Teralight, California. What is that place like? I've never heard of it. I like literally until I read your book. I was like, where is this? So where did you grow up? So it's Central California. Okay. I think Sacramento. It's about an hour south of Sacramento. Okay. Got it. So agricultural, when we first moved there, when I was four, it was like 40,000 people. Yeah. It sounds like it. All right. No, it does. I was like, it's okay. You describe it well in the book. I'm not going to lie. In the book, it's like, I was like, where is this? I was like, California is in another California. This is, yeah, it red part of California, which is also misconception. Everybody thinks California is like, oh, it's blue everywhere. Teralight, red part of California, also to paint a picture. Two of the highlights of being in Teralight, we got a regal movie theater. Yeah. That was a big moment. In and out came to Teralight. And those were like, we made it. The whole time. We made it. I ain't if you go down the highway, Teralight is like four eggs at salon. That's it. That's it. That's Teralight. Damn. So when you got movies and double doubles, it was like, yo, man, life changed. Life, what was your, what was your in and out order? Do you remember? I would just do a double, double plane. Okay. So I was very simple. I have since expanded my, my palate, my younger, my younger years, double, double plane. Man, super cut double, plane. They're like animal style protesters. Yeah. Yo, look at this head and tell me if I want animal style. Look at this head. It's not a line up in sight. Don't go back and look at my younger part. Man, this is insane. Super cut. Yes. And then I'm just, I'm waiting for that moment where your parents go, there's out of my hands now. Yeah. So why did you stop growing it? What happened? Yeah. So reason I started growing it was, I was a huge fan of Alan Iverson. Oh, okay. Also during that time period, huge fan of Brandy Moss. Okay. Okay. And that's, that's actually powerful. We'll get to that later, but that's actually powerful. Yeah. And what in reflecting back, for me, both of them, they were unapologetically themselves. Yeah. They were unapologetically black. They shifted culture within the NBA and within the NFL. Yeah. Yeah. And for me is a young black boy in Sherlock in a white family, predominantly white community. I was like, Oh, that's, that's who resonates with me. There's no one around in Sherlock that gets a look to. But how they approached it, for me, that was it resonated because you are constantly having to fight and battle. All of the conversations around just who you are. Right. Which is why the conversation of growing an Afro and the first time doing that in middle school becomes such a, a big moment because it becomes a decision that's, I'm not going to let you hold back who I am and how I naturally show up. And that was, that was a battle and a process and ultimately ended up getting braids, which that became, that became a whole nother experience when, you know, when I was reading that story in the book, like, this is, this is something that I'd like us to break down because I think you did a really beautiful job of not flattening characters. You know, when people tell stories in life, I think we can all be guilty of this. We can overstate and simplify the part of a person that we're memory, like thinking of in that moment. Yeah. Or, you know, gravitating towards in that telling of the story. Yeah. And that's why sometimes stories can be complicated. You'll go, someone will tell a story of a parent who is abusive. But then people will be like, yeah, but why, why did you still like it? And then like, Oh, well, there's this other side of them where they were beautiful and they were loving and they were caring. And we don't, we don't understand that nuance because of how we tell a story. Someone can speak about a country and, you know, love it and talk, you know, say beautiful things about, but then someone will go, like, why did you move that? Oh, there's this other side of the country that I couldn't stand and I couldn't handle. And I couldn't, what you do in the book, especially when talking about, about your parents, I really think you've done a fantastic job because you explain them as human beings. Do you know what I mean? You've got these, these two people who adopt you and they go through, in my opinion, and maybe that's because of how you've written it, they go through the most complicated relationship with the world they live in because they didn't, they didn't realize what comes with adopting you as a human being. But just, just, just bring it down for us. Like, help us understand like your parents, you know, how you came to be in their lives. And then, you know, what it was for you growing up with them. Yeah. So it, to your point, I love that framing, like the nuance around people in situations is so, so critical and so important. So my parents, they, they had two children already, my brother and sister, Colin Devon. They also had two other children who had passed because of congenital heart defects. And they passed very young. And the doctors recommended a, you probably shouldn't try again. You should look at adopting if you want to have more kids. So they were open to that. Ended up being adopted by them when I was five weeks old. Five weeks. Wow. Five weeks. Now my biological parents, father's black, mother's white, my, from my understanding, I've not met either of them. Yeah. From my understanding, my biological father actually played for the Denver Broncos at one point. Wait, are you being for real? I'm being serious. This was been shared with me. So play for the Broncos at one point. My biological mother was 19 at the time. And a lot of, a lot of complexity around their situation. That time as well. And that led to me being adopted. And was adopted, born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Parents adopted me. They grew up their whole lives in Wisconsin. Yeah. And similar to Turlock, Wisconsin is predominantly white. Yeah. Especially once you get outside of Milwaukee, Green Bay, like you're not going to find a whole lot of black people. To, to this day, even to my adult life, like going around Wisconsin, it would be like, oh, that's the Kaepernick kid. That's wild. That's how much you stood out. There was no one else. And it would also interesting was almost like a framing of like, oh, that's all right. He's, he's one of the Kaepernick's. Yeah. Like that you were saying, it's not just a, yes, it's like, oh, there, there's the person. Right. Like, oh, he's part of that family. Right. So like, it's all good. Did you, did your parents know that you were mixed race when they adopted you? Yes. Okay. Like that was never, that's an interesting part of like, identity conversations and having those with people is oftentimes people have assumption like, oh, like when, when did you realize you were black? It's like, so even if I didn't realize it, everybody around me told me, there's no escaping it if you wanted to. Or they got it. Oh, man, it's so funny. If you don't realize it, they realize it for you. Like they're gonna let you know. Yeah. And for me, that my parents knew that. I knew that from the young age. My, it what, I actually didn't know this to my adult life. My mom shared the story with me. And I was about three years old. Yeah. We're in Wisconsin. My sister had some friends over my sister's six years older than me. So they would been about nine years old. And we're all playing, running around the front yard. And one of the friends goes, oh, get that little nigger. Whoa. And in hearing that, at this point, I'm, the first time I heard this story, I'm in my 30s. Whoa. I'm like, that, that is actually a great depiction of the experience of being black and white spaces. Yeah. Is you don't have to do anything to bring about those moments. You can just be living, living existing, doing it, doing whatever you're doing with. It's gonna find you. And it's gonna find you. Yeah. And how you respond to those situations, well, at that point, I'm three years old, but as you get older, how you respond to those situations becomes very telling this far. are as what the trajectory for you is going to be. Do you become accepting of that as the norm? Or do you actually push back on that and say, "Yeah, we're not going to allow that to slide." And do you start hating yourself for being it? That's like one of the biggest ones that people take for granted, when people grow up in a space that is unlike them. If you don't have the privilege of growing up in a place where you just look like you belong and feel like you belong, you can also start to internalize that hatred and be like, "Why I don't belong, why do I look like this, why is my hair like this, why is my face like this, why am I like, you get what I'm saying?" And so I wanted to, did your mom ever say what she felt in that moment? She didn't say what she felt, but it was, what she shared was, it was a quick response for, like, "Hey, don't say that." And that was like the end. But to your point around, like, how you internalize that or how you take that with you makes me think of when I was older and reading Phanon and Black Skin White Mass and he talks about through a lens of colonization and how predominant culture, in this sense is white culture, the impact and influence that has on identity and you either assimilate into it and try to view that as, well, if what they're saying about me is bad then I should try to be like them. To me, the counter of that is, that's fine, you can have your perspective, but I'm going to be who I'm supposed to be regardless of that. And I think that becomes important and I think that's decided pretty early on, like, for me, I was very clear from a young age, like, I'm a Black boy and a white family. I'm going to embrace that. I understand we're different, but in being different doesn't mean I have to become like you. That must have been so hard, though. I can't think of many people who would have that ability. Most people's instinct would be to try and blend in and disappear as quickly as possible. So get rid of the hair so that it doesn't give you away, stay out of the sun so that it doesn't give you away. No, but you get what I'm saying. Yeah, blend in. Yeah, like the idea of being like, no, I'm going to be, yo, no one has cornrows in your school, man. Look about that first. I don't know who your hair, by the way, who did it? This was a journey. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. You can't just cornrow your head and turn lock. What are you talking about? The cell. What? Why are you laughing at me, bro? I know these stories, Eugene. I look at this man's hand. I'm like, yo, man, this guy's bringing back memories in my life. But I was surrounded by black women everywhere who were like, they were begging me to cornrow my head. Oh, in turn lock, how did this happen? You know, Colin, what you're doing for me right now is, you're just piercing through a 20 year old mystery for me. Some of these things I never, I never knew about my friend. So thank you so much for, for helping him feel seen as you were. Yeah. You just watch it therapy. This is good for y'all, this is good for all of us. But to that question, there was two brothers, Marcus and Ryan Clay, who had their hair braided. Okay. Two black boys, I played football with each other. Oh, so brothers, brothers. Okay. Brothers and brothers. I like that. They're all brothers. Yeah, but I wasn't sure. Okay. You never know. You never know. I don't know. Marcus Clay, Trevor. You never know. Marcus Clay. You never know. I don't issue anything. Marcus Clay. But you see, now the way you said they could be whites. Oh, yeah. Okay. So they were the only ones I saw with bright. Yeah. I went and asked them, I was like, I was like, who did, who did your hair? Like, what was the process? Now, mind you, at this point, um, 13 years old, right? It's not like the proudest moment or the best feeling to be like, I'm in middle school. Like, how, how'd you get your hair like that? Yeah. And why? It's a weird question to not know how to do your own hair. Like, there, there was no similar super cuss. Like, I've been going to super cuss my whole life. You get to a point that's like, oh, that's how I should be doing my hair. I have no idea how to even get there. And it's not something that's like, we're not in the technology area that we're in today. We're like, oh, let me look this up real quick. Um, so I'm the dial up and the AOL kick it in and the five minute process to get it out and loving. So through that, ask them, like, oh, there's this girl that we go to that live close by. She was in high school, high school girl, wherever they are the first time. They took you with, well, they gave me her number. So I called. It was like, hey, can you do my hair? And I got through a period of growing it out during that she like, oh, yeah, come by. So I go over there. I'm like, all right, I have no idea what this experience is going to be. And the only thing that Ryan told me was like, hey, just be ready. Like, you don't know if you're tenderheaded or not, the dreaded 10, you know what that meant? Not really. Um, I'm like, it was YouTube then, but I'm not tenderheaded there at that point. I'm not asking questions. I'm like, I got my foot in the door like, I'm making moves. So go over there. It's like, so it's a little bit short. Like, I can see what I can do also because the texture of my hair, not as tightly coiled. Okay. Okay. You know what, I can do something. So she, she braided it, but she put rubber bands through the hair. I was like, all right, she's, she's going and I'm like, this noted, I understand what tender head it is now, um, this is happening at her house. This is at her house. So it's a totally black family in a black family apartment building. That's close by. Coming around TV's on, well, most of her and her sister were older. So wasn't, uh, wasn't little kids around around. Yeah. Yeah. Then, but halfway through this, like, oh, we, you know, we got to run to the mall. No. Halfway. Halfway. No. So, okay. Well, but which halfway? Because there's two different halfway. When you're cornering. I've been in both situations, one is worse than the other. There's the halfway literally half your head, like one side, okay, in a strange way. That just feels like you're pulling a move. Like even when you look at yourself, you're like, oh, this could be like a statement. Yeah. Two-faced. But then there's the halfway where some people do it this way, then they leave you with like a little. So which halfway? Where were you? Just, just one side. Okay. Okay. Still bad. Okay. Okay. That's meant to face. Halfway. But also first experience. So, like, oh, we got to go to the mall, like getting a car. No. So. This is the face first time. I jump in the car with them. Go to the mall. They had to pick some stuff up because they had like a vent or a game they were going to or something. And I'm saying, I'm like, I have no idea what I got myself into. Like, I'll just like an episode of Atlanta. Yeah. That's what this is. That's what it feels like. Yeah. So during this time period, my mom is the one who had dropped me off. She's going to house. She has no idea where I'm at. You can't find people. No. Yeah. You'll remember those days. Yeah. Yeah. Where the person was is where this supposed to be. Exactly. Where were you? I wasn't here. Oh. Where the phone is. Oh goodness. So she's phoning. She can't find you. You're at the mall with your half head. And. Now, on the way to mall, like we're vibing, you're saying, I'm like, hey, this, they're a handful of black people in turnlock. And I'm in the car with like half of them, like, so I'm like, I'm good right now. Get to them all they do. Shop them. All right. Jump back out. And I'm like, oh, the hot light at Krispy Kreme is on. Oh, no. What does that mean? So that means the Krispy Kreme doughnuts just got made like they're fresh out so like, oh, we need to stop at Krispy Kreme. I don't know. I had not had a Krispy Kreme at that point in your life, in my life, man, this is so I'm very much like Atlanta. Oh, man, this is a full Atlanta episode. So I'm. All right, like was there's no other choice, but yeah, yeah, let's do it the hot light on man. I'm just in the call That's all I don't fully know what the hot light on means. I'm just what's the name of a new book. Yeah, the hot light is on So go over there grab Chris with cream. All right, nice and driving back to the house, vibing Get back there finish my hair. I call my mom And I can feel the heat coming through the phone Because I was and I was an hour later. Yeah, you're gone and this This is my first time meeting them. She doesn't know them. Mm-hmm. I get in the car Hair any of that didn't matter It was just where the have you been So it did not help my case on the braids side. Mm-hmm, but the good part One Braids were very tight So I had to take I had to take them out quickly because I was like I can't deal with this got a headache. How long did you last? Oh There's like 24 maybe 48 hours, so at least you got to go to school with the new braids. Yes. Yeah, briefly Yeah, what do people say what what are the streets say about the braids? How do they feel? Did you feel like a new colon? Oh, I felt amazing. Yeah, I also felt like I got facelift It does feel like that. It is a natural facelift. It did it. Yeah, it's like it's like mega Botox facelift at the same time It also depends Did you sleep were you able to sleep? Yeah, that's that's first night no one warns you and It also depends who's braiding your hair. Yeah, mm-hmm like this was Strong hands mm-hmm and short and then and short hair. Yes. Terrible. I'm a Let's make this we're gonna get it done. Yeah, but you're gonna feel it so But was good first day Was it to vote look was looking younger already? Facelift it all looking like he was 12s now, right? But that turned into oh We're gonna find a professional barber shop in barber Oh, okay drove to Modesto To someone who did it professionally, but wait how did but you talk about this in the book this is this like a complicated one It's like you know, you've got your mom who cares about you deeply you were the child that they could never have you filled This this this whole in the family, you know, you talk about the love and the affection and all this But there's also this this side of your life. That was really difficult in that race wasn't spoken about So like when you get when you get cornrows Your mom has a reaction to this. What's her reaction? So The immediate reaction even to grow my hair out. Yeah, it was like well, why you want to do that? Like for what yeah, and then getting the braids Initially was like oh, this would be a phase you'll go like you'll grow out of it. Okay And then After that first experience and then we found a barber shop and it became oh, I'm getting braids on a regular basis. Yeah, this is you know this was like oh this From their perspective like oh, this isn't a phase anymore. Uh-huh, and how do they feel about that which then turned into like Oh, we don't like that you have braids damn and I mean, there was pressure around it because it was like oh, you can't have braids and play baseball Or like hey your afro won't fit under your baseball cap And ultimately it came out at one point that was like oh, you don't look professional. Mm-hmm. Yep. And you look like a little thug. Yeah Which Is is a fascinating like insight. Yeah to your point because You're in a dynamic where it's your family You know they love you. Yeah, you know they care about you But you realize that they have an issue with your blackness Mm-hmm And that's an interesting piece to grapple with like You love me as your son, but you don't love my blackness as your son. Mm-hmm But that's part of me and who I am And getting them to understand that That was a difficult part and that that really didn't happen until I was older because I had I had to have better knowledge and understanding and framework to be able to explain to them What you're doing and the impact that has and what you're actually saying about me And not just me what you're saying about a whole community of people. Yeah And that's a that's the interesting part that ultimately led to me led me to cutting my hair Um, wasn't so much an option at that point. It was like you're gonna cut your hair And then it wasn't until 14 years later that I grew my hair back out It's amazing how political black hair is Just like all over the world as an idea, you know because when I think of you as well your hair You know, I hadn't known before I read the book about how it affected you in your early life But there's no separating Colin Kaepernick from the hair. Yeah, absolutely When when people were talking about you your hair was also part of it, you know So if you if you had if you had cornrows People would say you try to look hard or you're trying to do something when you're the effort They're like oh this guy is what is he black power now? He's trying to It always symbolize something and I genuinely like selfishly remember watching these things going Damn, this gives me so many strange flashbacks to moments in my life. So inside Africa Till this day we've seen it Growing your hair out especially as a black kid Was I know yeah our schools That was the Probably the like the first sign of like you are being What would you say rebellious? Yeah, rebellious unprofessional unkempt un Like the white kids all my friends they had like, you know, they had the gel the little spiky She made the spiky face and then they had the little coit thing that does that that It was beautiful. Yeah Black boys the only hair that you were allowed to have Was a hair, guys Everything off that's as soon as it started getting long They were like and then they would they would measure it They would come and measure it with a ruler and they would go like that. It's gotten too long now time to go and get a cut They'd send you home really yeah, they send you home It was and this was a big thing in South Africa even until recently there were a lot of schools and kids actually who were protesting Saying that hey our natural hair is not unkempt and unprofessional. It's not I had this so when I I'm trying to think of the times I grew out my hair. So the first time I grew out my hair was I think it was in and around I don't even know which hip-hop artist it was or what was happening But it was when that like sideways Oh, yeah, you know the the the the the the hair. I don't know what that thing was the old gumbee the gumbees That would have called. Oh, that's called. Yeah, I didn't know the name. Yeah, I just saw it I knew my hair could go big went to the barber shop So my mom would just drop me off and then the guys would just cut my hair pretty simple all the time Your mom is the kind of mom that I pray for at the barbershop Because the moms that come in and ask how much is the haircut I hate those Just leave that guy the barber will figure it out Drop the guy and leave No, my mom would drop me. Yeah, perfect. My mom would she drop me off and then she'd be like Back I'll be back. Do do the thing. Yeah, and I always had my routine that give me a really nice cut all the time And then one day I said to the barber my head really grown out and then my father was like usual and then I said no, sir can you do the And then he was like pointed it on the board and then I was way down way further than I usually go You know the numbers I went like way down no one ventures that low Way down and I was like that one and he's like this one. I was like yeah, this one He's like are you sure I was like yeah, I'm sure he's like okay, bye-bye. I see shy. Let's do it And then he did it cut around the sides made it cylindrical and then he did like the little slant that goes up at the top When I looked at myself in the house like this is the greatest moment In my entire existence for real. I leave the barber shop. My mom is waiting outside My mom go she her face Because her it's funny with her. She didn't care about the style She was just like this is gonna need to be cut again like next week my mom went on like a monthly cut basis. Oh, yes You good one of those like yeah, l'm down that what what Trevor? What is this and I was like mom? It's a she's like this is not a heck I've paid and then she went back she's like no take it off. They're like you don't have to pay for another haircut She's like yeah That's long done and now she couldn't afford to get the the hair cut off. Yo, man. She was You see why mom's a lot in the barber's job when yo When I got to school, bro, I've still got that picture when I went to school and a little kid I was feeling myself, but even then Teachers everyone they're like yo, what are we worried about his behavior now where it became that was like the first moment I experienced it the rest of my life. I pretty much have short hair When I'm leaving school. I grow it out again. That's not a big deal in the US, that's when I experienced it in a weird way. I'm at the daily show. Short hair is like how I roll. Short hair, short hair, short hair. Pandemic hits. No one has a barber. My hair grows out, my hair grows out, and I don't care. I'm just like, this is natural, it's just happening. And then as it was growing, people would be commenting like online and they'd be like, yo, what's going on? Yo, what's happening? And it was a wide range from like, yo, is that what his hair is? Is, wait, I don't understand, why is he's hair like that? What is, what is, who, and then the number one thing people ask me was, yo, but you're going to, you're going to cut it right, you're going to, pandemics done, I mean, you're going to, and it's down to it, but you're going to, surely you're not going to, I mean. For real, for real? Yeah, a lot of people, they were like, we understand that you would have this in a time of distress. Yeah, but surely you want to go back to, and the under, the professional undertone was always like, but surely you want to go back to like, you know, like, like this is cool, Colin. I mean, you could, you know, you're chilling right now. But when you, when you, when you do something like, if you like open a company, you got an office, you'd probably like, you probably, you cut it, right? It's the, it's the, it's the perception of what it means to people. But here's my thing. I think since I've been coming to New York often, this has been my fascination. I see more mixed-race people in New York than I've ever seen in my life. And when I see mixed-race people, I always see them in different spaces. I see them with other mixed-race people. I either see them with white people. Yeah. Or I see them with black people. And in all of those three situations, they act differently. So when, so for example, at the barbershop, there's mixed-race barbers, then they have mixed-race clients. Yeah. So when their mixed-race clients show up, they sound more black than anything else. So they switch from being who they were before and then they go, "Yo, what's going on?" And then to the left, I was like, "Yo, what's going on?" It's the cold street. Yes. And then sometimes their white friend would walk in the, 'cause it happened the last time. The white friend walked and he was like, "Yeah, man, we have, we have to, yeah, we have to do that." And I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, what happened, yeah?" Ah! So when, when your mixed-race, who do you feel the most comfortable with one and who do you have to explain the least to? That's a good question, Eugene. Take it, Colin. That's a really good question, actually. I'm gonna throw an additional factor in here. In my end, I love means go in there, which is being adopted. You're constantly exploited with that grout. Oh, I didn't think about that later. 'Cause anywhere my parents show up, it's like, and you can see people trying to do the math in their head. Like, do you want them to have a black partner previously? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You come with questions. Oh, immediately. Yeah. So like there, there was constantly a space of, all right, I have to explain the situation, I have to explain, otherwise it's like, I could tell people in anything we're doing are seeing they're like, yeah, I hear you, but I'm still trying to figure out like, how you got here. Yeah, yeah. So you throw that in the mix, but what's interesting in, for me growing up, even in being mixed race like black and white, I just view myself as a black man, because you're gonna be treated like a black man anywhere you go. Like there wasn't a middle ground within that. Now, the realization that you have as you get older is also you're gonna be treated different being lighter skin, yeah. Then your friends and community that are darker skin. Like, that's a factor too. Now, either one of you walks into a space that's predominantly white, like you're still getting treated like you're black. The part that was interesting for me growing up is, in being in those spaces and having white parents, I also felt like white people were a lot more comfortable saying how they truly felt. To you. It was almost like, oh, if those of you are parents like, we're good. Like we're just, we can talk freely because you're part of the white family, right? So, I think there was a lot more insight that I got into, like the thinking of how white people were operating just by way of them being comfortable because of the situation, which is also interesting like, peace didn't navigate and deal with. - You know what's funny is growing up in South Africa in the township, there was, I was only an adult when I got exposed to the phrase mixed-race. Because there were always lighter skin kids in the township, right? We couldn't explain them, but they were there. - We couldn't explain them. (laughing) - You know why the phrase mixed-race makes my love. - Yeah, mixed-race, no, 'cause it sounds like they were like 10 of you and then they were like, "Am I a chance, guys, we need to figure this out." So, what's happening with this guy? - Yeah, we couldn't explain them because we also, you know what made it hard not to be able to explain them because no one at their house looked like them. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Other siblings, and there was mom and dad, and then there was them. - This is my life. - And then, but in our heads, it never clicked that they were mixed-race. It was just a guy or a girl that looked a certain way, right? So, when him and I first met, we met through comedy. So, he would come to the same club as I would come to, but on the days that he was there, wasn't there, and the day was there, they were like, "Yo, there's this colored guy." So, colored in South Africa is, you know how it is. - It has a completely different terminology. - Yes, it is. - And for context, Eric Reed, his wife is South African. - Oh, I don't know that. - So, I've gotten a little bit of insight from her mom. She was the first one that gave me the context of colored in South Africa being mixed. - Yeah. - I was like, "Oh, this is, I had to reframe my mental model." - It's completely. - So, now all the people that we do comedy with, who would see him and see me. They'll be like, "You have to meet this guy. This guy is super funny." It's a colored guy. This colored guy is colored again. Finally, we meet. Then, I went back to the same people. I was like, "Which colored guy were you guys talking about?" (laughing) They were like, "That guy." And I was like, "That guy is far from colored. "Not a chance." (laughing) Then I was like, "What are you guys talking about?" Because of his skin tone, they thought he was colored. - Yeah, 'cause it's a culture. And it's, it's South Africa. It's so complicated. You see Tyler going through this all the time, the musician, they keep asking her. Why you say you colored, why you say black, why? And Shayma, I always feel bad for her. 'Cause I'm like, they're asking her to explain one of the most unnecessarily complex, difficult situations that was created by a partite in South Africa, which was, they gave this skin tone, the designation of colored. But what happened over time, you know, and it often happens in the face of any adversity, a beautiful thing emerges. Colored people became their own culture, but they were forced to become a culture. It wasn't an optional thing. So now, colored is both a culture and a color at the same time. At the same time in South Africa, but you may not be colored. You can look colored and not be colored. You can also not look colored and be colored. So it's this, and I think like most things in life, if you just enjoy it and try not to flatten it, it actually becomes more interesting. But that thing was like, yeah, it was like, guys, please explain the colored part to me. Yeah, we're like, you saw him, right? And I was like, yes, I did, we're like, then, then I was like, guys, I spoke to the guy. But culturally, yeah, culturally, like Eugene and I basically grew up the same life, the same vibe, the same everything. So, and I will, it's funny, you know that question you asked. I think of it, here's the thing I've learned in my life. I'm not saying it's the same for everybody, but I will say this, for the most part, and I don't blame the people. I blame the systems that the people have lived within. I find black people are generally more comfortable and more understanding of the nuances in between. They'll roast you, don't get me wrong. But what I found was, black people just understood all the shades of black and they knew that they existed. So they knew, it's like, it's like, okay, even being black from Ghana and then coming to America means that you have a different experience in your blackness than a black American. But you both share one commonality and that is your blackness. But then there's the nuance and the beautiful tapestry that exists within you from who you're from. The same thing goes in South Africa, we also have culture to fall back on. So you might go to me like, we call it and then I'll be like, no, no, pause. And then it's like, no, pause. Now it all becomes like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But that adds another layer to it. And people are more accepting of that. They're like, oh, mama, come close, okay. And they're not that dark, okay. Oh, okay, oh, that dark moon, oh. Then like, oh, his dad is white, oh, his mom is closer. They would be so much, it was so much easier for them to grasp that. But it's also because in a sad and beautiful way, I've always felt like the most marginalized communities in the world, whether it's in, when I go to Paris, and I've seen like some of the suburbs, when I'm in South Africa, obviously, where I grew up even in the US, the most marginalized communities are the ones where people are forced to be the most mixed. Hmm, do you get what I'm saying? Explain. In many ways, poverty is surprisingly inclusive. Very much so. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's a strange thing. Yeah. Go to any hood. Yo, you'll see every shade, every style, every vibe, every everything. And like I say, it's not to like turn it into like a Disney movie. That's why people will roast you. They will tell you about how you look. You will be that light skin nega. You will be that you will be that Somali cat. They will say the thing. Yeah. But the thing is they will they both acknowledge you in your nuance. And then they will accept you or not accept you on a human level, I believe. So like not everyone's just going to friends because they were humans. But then I find when you move into spaces where people are predominantly defined by one thing. Like living a country is like the white thing or the that space generally has like a whew. It's like this is the band and that's it. If you're not in it, you're not in it. And you sort of like can't be in it. Yeah. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. So when you ask me the question of like most comfortable, I would argue I'm always most comfortable. In a space where people are very quickly able to understand the complexity and the nuance of my thing. But we've often spoken about this. And I've seen it whenever we we do stuff with Trevor is black people in South Africa. They will just go straight into vernacular like any black cause he's speaking African languages. So they'll just go without even thinking about it. And then white people are shocked that he responds like them. You jeans are shocked by this. Yes. Because I get to watch it from the outside. They'll always say the same thing. Why do you speak the languages? How did you understand? How do you speak the languages? Where did you learn all these languages? I'm like in the country that I'm from. From my family and from my wife. What do you mean? How did I speak all these languages? How do you not know all of these languages? You've lived here your whole life. It had a country that is overwhelmingly made of these languages. I'm shocked that you don't speak with languages. It's outfail. It happens. After all these years, after everything that he's done, everything that he's said, everything he's written about, without fail, it happens. Like clockwork. Yeah, Eugene just sits in the back laughing or just being you've always you've always pointed. I didn't even notice that until you said it. I just lived and then one day Eugene was like, yeah, why do people? I was like, what do you mean? And then the next time I was like, damn, Eugene's rights. Because it becomes so normalized. Yeah. Yeah. You're used to having to explain yourself and that very similar experience. Don't go anywhere because we got more what now after this? We're doing the deal. We're past kneeling. We should be talking about Colin. We're moving on to action as if action hadn't been happening for years. Did sport give you a different type of outlet though? Because you know, when I read your story, what's beautiful throughout the book is like, we're exploring this life of this young man, Colin, discovering himself. And it's so many layers. It's you as a boy trying to discover life. Then it's you as a biracial boy. You're a black boy growing up in this town with like five black people. Your parents are white. They love you deeply, but they have very little understanding of blackness and how it is appreciated or unappreciated. All of this is happening. And then there's this new thing that develops on the side. Yeah. That's actually crystal clear. And that's a scoreboard. Like what did sport do in your life? How did that change or develop you as a person? Because that's a whole different world. Yeah. So I love sports because they're so clearly defined. That must have been liberating. You can't tell me I'm less than when there's numbers on the scoreboard. Yeah. And it becomes a space where it becomes very clear if you win or lose. If you're good or bad. That's not to say there's not politics within it and all of that. But it does become a space that's much clearer. Who is better and who isn't? So for me, that became a very comfortable space. I also became a space that's like I can hyper focus and just go out and do what I love doing. Yeah. And I will say it also looked different from sport to sport. Oh, okay, same thing. Like culturally each sport is different. Right now, if you think of the NFL or if you think of the NBA or major league baseball or the NHL. Culturally, you kind of have a feeling for each of those without ever stepping into the organization. And for me, football was the space. I was like, oh, culturally this is closer to who I am. That's interesting. And there were more black people in football within their life. So I was like, oh, there's more community here for me. So I love football in that regard. And one of my earlier experiences when I was eight years old and I first played tackle football. And for the team, made the team almost passed out the first day at Trials, but ultimately got out of the team. And going through our first few days, first is an anecdote to this. One of our coaches, Russ Bailey, is a general in the military, I believe, or drill sergeant in the military. So eight years old out there. Every day it was like, got to do 50 pushups. We'll call them pushups. I guess eight years old, you're not getting a whole lot of football band in there. A lot more headbombing. We'd be doing leg lifts, we're doing laps. I was like, this is, this is terrible. Kids are on the field. It sounds like torture. You can tell this man missed his old job. Get dropped out of giving 50. Get out of your maggot. And this is the worst part. If anybody stopped doing pushups, he was one of those. Everyone started on the guy. Kids are on the field crying. It's bad. But now ultimately led into this first drill. The running back was a 10 year old. Joey Adaway never, never forget this. Joey Adaway, 10 year old, one of the one of a few black kids on the team. He was the star. Fast, strong, lean, like nobody wanted to tackle him. I didn't know this at the time. So we lined up for this drill. It's called Katana Ali. Terrible drill. Half the team lines up here. Half lines up here. At opposite ends, you have a ball carrier and a tackleer. Those are the cats. One is a cat. One is a cat. Yeah, one's a cat. So ball carrier is supposed to be the cat. Yeah. Tackleers are the other one. So you sprint around the outside. And then sprint down the middle. Wait, what? Like at each other. At each other. Full speed one on one. But you have the whole team lined up. So there's nowhere to go. Like you have to go head on. So I'm waiting in line for my turn. And I'm supposed to be a tackleer. I'm like, all right. And I start seeing kids shuffling around. I'm like, what? You don't know what? If you could go behind me. If he kids over there, like, oh, man. I've never done this drill. I haven't been an organized football like that. All right. I'm going to get all right. Ready to tackle. And I look over and I realize that he's the person I'm going up against. Joey out of way. Oh, shit. I made a mistake. Too late to shuffle. No. So I blow the whistle. I take off running. I get to the end to turn around. And he is already halfway down the. He's already halfway down the. And he can't. I wanted that. And I go to try and tackle. He puts his helmet right in my chest. Oh. And runs straight through me. And I remember. I don't know how hard I hit the ground. I just remember looking up. And I see his cleats going over my face. Oh my god. And I just see the sky. I was like, I'm not even sure what happened right now. You hear the words, welcome home. It felt that way. I spent the rest of that drill regrouped. But that was my first experience. Now I say that, say, as I was playing on that team, yeah, his mom misses out of way, adored her, adored her, bigger black woman, every day at practice. Hey, baby, how are you doing? Oh, man. Also, very random, growing up Wisconsin, we were packer fans. She was a packer fan, black packer fan in Serlite, California. I was like, I don't know how this happened, but would always check on me. And I was like, in a moment, I didn't, I didn't realize it, but looking back, I'm like, she was making sure I was good. Yeah. Cause she knows what turn lock is. Yeah. Like, she just has the experience of being older. And that ties into the culture that I got to experience with them football. I was like, Oh, the sense of belonging within the community here, like that resonated with me. And that's not say that didn't show up in ways within basketball and baseball. But football really became the home there. So the culture piece and then also being able to go out and have that definitive nature of, and sports, you get to compete. And you're either better or you're not. And it becomes very hard to be able to skew that perception. Right. Now, you may be able to do it initially. But over time, players know coaches know people watching know as I, yeah, you, you should be starting. You should be playing. That's the best player out there. That's the best team. So it has a level of defense against people being able to manipulate that. Yeah. I think that's, you know, I, I joked about this once with a friend, we were chatting, we're looking at like numbers in America and it was like, okay, incarceration and then, you know, employment in corporate spaces and talking about like how a black person moves. And then the outsize influence or rather success of black people in sport. And I remember, I really said it flippantly. But I just said, I was like, yeah, because sport is the one place where you can't lie about the person's achievements or lack thereof. It's there for everyone to, you just can't. And we take this for granted. Again, I don't blame the people, but I think we take so many of these things for granted. When you work with somebody in an office, how do you grade how good they are or aren't? Yeah. If we're honest about it. Do you, do you look at their output, but what does their output actually mean? Do you look at their input? How they, you know, feel in the office or what they make other people feel like? Is, is it, is it how they sell themselves in a meeting? Is it how they, we take, yo, we take for granted. How much of that is just plucked from thin air. And it's an idea correlated to how we perceive good, efficient performance, professionalism. You even see it, take it out of race, look at it, men and women. One of the things I remember I was talking to one of my team members about when I was in the office was as she was having a really tough time. She's like, man, I'm, I'm so sorry. I like crying in that meeting. And I was like, why? And she says, I just, I don't know, I just feel so like, unprofessional when I cry. I said, but it's interesting. You say that, but I've seen the guys have like a temper tantrum and no one thinks that that's unprofessional. And they don't apologize. And they don't apologize, you know, be like, I'm sick of this shit. We're going to get it done. And then people are like, yeah, we got to get it done. He was really passionate about it. And so you realize if you, if you work in an office for the most parts, the office as a space has been defined. Most of its parameters that we take for granted have been defined through one idea. And that idea is a white male man. Again, I'm not against it. I'm not saying it's the people are bad. It's just if you bring a group of people together and they define a space, that is what the space will generally be about. Okay. So now that is the benchmark. How far you deviate from it will define your professionalism. You get I'm saying. So if your hair is far from his, if your style of dressing is far from it, if you're the way you speak as far from his, if you're anything, if the further you get, the less professional you will be perceived as being. Right. So even woman, you get, so when a space becomes more female, then that starts to change how we determine professionalism. But even then it's like, how do you dress? Where does your dress get to? What is your skirt? What is your blouse? What et cetera, et cetera. You know what I mean, right. And that's, that's the thing that's so fascinating about sport. Yeah, it still comes with its politics and its complexity. And we're going to chat about that. But like the scoreboard was the scoreboard, man. It's really, really difficult to close somebody out for a long time when the numbers start to speak. It just becomes this world where it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, do you put your numbers up? Do you beat your man? Do you get that ball to the carrier? And so I can, I can, I can see that being this world. But it, I didn't know, again, you know, because it's funny for me, I've experienced your journey backwards. I didn't know that baseball was such a big part of your life. Yeah. And it seems like you, like this is where you genuinely thought your, your life was going to go. But then it was like, what was like 200? How many DVDs did you send out to Scouts? DVDs. Yeah, bro, we're talking way back when, bro. Did you say DVD? You damn straight. The TikToks come back in the day. Physical TikToks, baby. You carried them with you. You're not, but I explain what I did. We just have a little pop up for younger people who watch. Yeah, you sent out like hundreds, right? How many DVDs did you send out? So we sent out 119, 119, to all 119 Division 1 schools at that time. That was for baseball. That was for football. Oh, that was for football. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Now here's, here's a part that we'll definitely have players play throughout for. My film was actually done on tape. So we had a machine. Yeah. DVD player that would burn the tape onto the DVDs. So we had to go from VHS to. You guys would have been really good friends. Oh, man. At some point, this is my dream. And his own Apple music at his house. That's a very fun other day. So you have to physically do this 100 times over in the hopes that you would get picked up. And did that with my dad and my brother. Yeah. Sent him out to every school. And just got mail after mail letter after letter. And I was like, yeah, we're not looking for anyone. And was this for the quarterback position? This was the play quarterback. You see, like, that's another layer that I've never really understood in football. And I know it's changing. And so, forgive me. I'm really ignorant on this. Yeah. Why has it seemed like the quarterback position is also like like a white guy position? And forgive me if I say anything because I don't know the sport really well. At all. I've watched like the playoffs. I see the people crashing to each other. And then I watch ads for like 10 minutes. I don't really understand the sport. But I love like elements of it. But I've never understood that where people be like, oh, he looks like a quarterback. Oh, he is. Just explain that to me. Break that down. The the best way to be able to explain it is think of the quarterback as the CEO of the team of the team. Okay. Particularly on the field. The common framing is, well, the CEO is going to be white. Okay. They have to be intelligent. Uh-huh. They have to be able to lead and command a team. Uh-huh. They have to be a student of the game. Okay. And all of those were attributes that were attributed to white quarterbacks. Okay. Now, the flip side black quarterbacks. And these were these were things that I was framed as. Yeah. Freak athlete gifted. Okay. Uh-uh. A dual threat. Okay. And nothing was ever. Oh, you're a phenomenal leader. Yeah. You're you're extremely intelligent. You're a student of the game. Which it is fascinating because I think about coming out of high school when I was being recruited. At a 4.5. What does that mean? Uh-uh. GPA. GPA. So grade point average. So normal baseline is if you get straight A's, you get a 4.0. Okay. If you take AP classes, you can get beyond that. That's like advanced classes. Yeah. Advanced classes. So I was beyond the standard of what you're supposed to be able to get. Right. The wonder is also not normal for athletes. I mean, I might add like generally because like athletes in America would be again, not their fault. They would just be pushed through because athletics was so important and is so. Oh, the academics get Yeah, yeah, just push the kid through, push them through them, we don't care that they're not really learning, just push them through. So you are academic and athletic at the same time. Yes, so the intelligence piece was always interesting to me. Yeah, because it's like, there's a track record. Right, right. There's data to support what I've done there, but we see this consistently. We also see it when quarterbacks, black quarterbacks have been athletic. Oh, well, maybe you should play receiver. Maybe you should go tight end and trying to shift position out of the quarterback, shift the position away from being a quarterback. Yeah. And we still see this today, like this is not abnormal for this to occur. Have we seen a changing though, like from your time to what we're looking at now, do you think there's been a big change, a small change, no change? There's been some change around it. In part, because the talent and performance has become so undeniable. There you go. That's like, you. Okay, really, like you can't make the claim that they shouldn't be playing. Right, right, right, right, right. That's not to say that they still don't try. Yeah, the perception remains the same, but I do think outside and more throughout society, people are starting to look at me like, no, that's the normal. That's, that's the norm now. Yeah, because if I could have someone back there who could stand in the pocket and throw the ball, the same way is counter-part can. Right. And also can run a four or four. Like you give me more options and you give our offense more options. And that's what we're seeing play out. And that actually took a lot of time for offenses to evolve and offensive coordinators to actually accept that there was somebody who could do more than the position had previously. Interesting. There was a wave within football that they would have typically would be a white quarterback. Yeah. And then they would call in what would be a wild cat package. Okay. Which would be we're going to bring a running back in to play quarterback because we want them to be able to run the ball and give us more options. Okay. So like we need you to throw in this instance for the running back. We're bringing you in play quarterback, but we need you to run. Yeah. Which defenses then looked at and we're like, well, I know you're running the ball like you're running backs not throw. They can't throw. And it's like, well, you have a option today that can do both of those. Yeah. Why would you not just do unpredictable? And that was the, I think that progression and we see this early on like Randall Cunningham, Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, Cordell Stewart, warm moon, Steve McNair, all of these black quarterbacks that came in extremely talented. And I would say oftentimes limited by how the offense was designed to be a maximized their abilities. Have you ever seen, there's a few studies that have been done on it, but there's one that really, that came out really, really recently. Somebody analyzed, like a team analyzed the commentary in the Premier League, so the soccer league in England. And all they did, this is like one of those were again, the data, that's where data is a beautiful thing. They just looked at the commentary and the words that we used for white players, the commentary and the words that we used for black players. That was it. That was it. They just wanted to see. When you look at the word map, the amount of times, a white player was called intelligence, thoughtful, skillful. It was always like, man, the way they think about the game, such a talent, the way he, his vision, his ability, and then the black players was always like, he's a beast. The man is, you know what I mean, he's unstoppable, a force of nature, an absolute look at him, power down the field and don't get me wrong. Some of the things were very complimentary, but the type of compliment was like reserved in a certain way. So it was like, on this side, it was, yes, you are, like this machine and you are big and you are powerful and you're strong and you're gifted naturally. I mean, no one can stop you. You're just an unstoppable thing. And then on this side, it was like, the way you use your brain, man, just moments where you use your brain and it's interesting. This is 2026, by the way. We're not talking about like 40, 50 years ago. And again, those commentators, I don't think of being like assholes. The Premier League even has like an anti-racism campaign. Are there any black commentators in the Premier League? That's a good question. I'm sure there are contributors, but I don't think there's many black and main commentators. But again, because of the sport, they've wrote in a lot of pundits, you know, and co-hosts and stuff. But you see what I also noticed in Premier League football, whenever they speak about a black player, they'll always also speak about their descent. They'll be like, so if a Chelsea player is from Ghana, but now lives in the, they'll say of Ghanaian descent and then he's like, they love doing that. They're a long journey. They love doing that. Premier League and then he's doing very well. Yeah. He does a lot for his community as well. Then they'll be like, why are you telling us about this? Why are you explaining him? Can I say what I think it is? They do a lot in the World Cup now. Genuinely. Honestly, what I think it is. So I think sometimes how something is intended is not how it's received. Right? And this is life. And now I think our role, I mean, it's your choice and you talk about this in the book and you talk about it as yourself. In life, you can make a decision. You can choose to receive the thing as it was intended. You can choose to tell the deliverer of the message that they've done it wrong, et cetera, et cetera. I think what's often happening is people don't realize that they are showing how they've perceived a group of people. And so they're like impressed by the journey that you've taken, which can be felt in a very condescending way. It can feel very condescending. So they're just like, oh, Eugene, I mean, to see you, I mean, you've traveled around the world. Huh? I mean, look at where you came from and you, wow. But you get what I'm saying. So I think sometimes, sometimes the way they're saying it. I think they're saying it because they are surprised that that person is there, but they don't realize that they're revealing their surprises, revealing something and not necessarily negative. It's just a feeling of something, but they don't have that surprise when a player worked themselves up. So I'll give you a simple example. I very seldom heard commentator say this about Lata and Ibrahimovic. That's what I was about. And Lata and Ibrahimovic had one of the hardest lives growing up. He's one of the greatest footballers we've ever seen. He's one of the most talented individuals, true freak of nature. The man is probably your height. He's massive, but he's nimble and he was quick and he was like, he would do like acrobatic moves that only tiny players would do everything. And when you read his story, you're like, man, you know, family from the Soviet block and then they go to Sweden and he's an outsider and he's not accepted and all of these things. And he's like, he's not Swedish enough and he's not blonde and blue eyed and all these things the way he speaks and all of this. But commentators very seldom, if you look at his career, very seldom spoke of him in that way. They very seldom spoke of him as a Cinderella story. They very seldom go like man from humble beginnings, Lata and Ibrahimovic. No, they're just like, Lata and what can he not do? I mean, the guy the most gifted player on the ball the way he thinks about the game and his talent and he's just like, oh, he's phenomenal. Yeah, but then you will find generally a player who's had his, a similar journey to his, but they happen to be a person of color, then people focus on that. But I've also noticed in soccer that it's easier for comment, maybe not easier, but commentators will gravitate towards explaining someone who's mixed race trying to explain it to, to the, to the. Yeah, then someone of mixed heritage, yes, because in Europe, there's a lot of that. There's a mix heritage check, check Republican mom and Albanian, whatever. No, no, ever say with an Albanian mom and a check dad. He's very far wrong, but if a mixed race Belgian player plays, the commentator almost feels they need to explain who that guy is. His mom is from here. His dad is from the, how many, you know, a lot of times I've heard his woke up. Yeah, but what I blame again, like I say, remember, they all get their factoids, right? So the good, the good commentators, at least what they do is before game, they will like try and get as much information as they can on every single player. Yeah, they download everything really and they try and learn where they're from, what, because they want to tell a story during a match. Yeah. To them, what's interesting is that because that's abnormal. You actually notice a thing that I'm saying to them, it's abnormal. They're going, wow, and you know, Nigerian father and they, you know, it's like a, you know, and then they'll say about Colin as well. They'll be like Colin Kaepernick, absolutely fantastic player. Originally adopted, you know, to a really, really wonderful parents grow up in Turlock and really, you know, grew up in one of the. very few children of Kalaini's community. Oh, Kalain government extruding the boys is really, really good, but they feel like that is what makes your story interesting. And so genuinely, when I watch it, I go, I don't think of it in a malicious way, I go, it shows us something, but I understand where they're like coming from. - You know how, whenever I hear commentators doing exactly what he just did, I'm just glad it never happens in real life. Imagine every time you walk into a room that commentators that, you know, you'd be surprised about how you got here. (laughs) - When you walk in the office, you walk in the office. And here we are, accounting department of JP Morgan, and it's gonna be a big team meeting today. You've got everyone gathered. Brad Smith, there he is, really, really strong guy. I mean, he's just, the way he thinks about the numbers in this team. You know, Bill, he's just, yeah, you know, he's really shown that he's a top thinker. He's a strategist, he's got everything, his reports every single quarter. - Bring back a shankful backer, and stronger. - And oh, look, look, we got here. Oh, one of his co-workers, oh, the one and only. Oh, the man himself, Marcus, the beast. Oh, look at, I mean, Marcus, look at this guy, his physique, the way he moves through the office. Have you seen how many files he can pick up at the same time? I mean, imagine this guy delivering a report to your office, what are you gonna tell him? What are you gonna tell him? - Yeah, well, interesting fact about Marcus Jim is that his dad of Nigerian descent. And his mom from Wisconsin, he's overcome a lot. (laughing) His story, he's just overcome a lot. (laughing) - It's a real rags, the rags. (laughing) - Let's get into the part of your journey that like, that like, really, I mean, there are two parts for me in football that you spoke about, you knew it from the mic. - Yeah, no, no, he's been, press conferences, but he knows. You know, because, I think the sound quality, huh? - Yeah, I love this. The reason I want everyone to read your book is because I think when anybody writes a book, if they write it well, it is both a beautiful introduction to a human being, but it's also a fascinating look into aspects of lives that we may never get to live, you know? And for me, it's the sport itself. You know, when you're like in a, you're sharing a room with Cam Newton and he's got like tons of arm under arm again. You've got no again. He's just like, yo, just take it and have it. Like that beautiful experience, you know, way, he's like in this echelon that you don't even know that you're gonna get to at some point, but you do. You know, when you talk about like meeting your idols and then becoming teammates with the working with them, like there's so many parts of your journey, but I know we'd be remiss if we didn't get into like two of the biggest seminal moments. The first one being you, the Super Bowl, just like how you get into the team and how this like changes your life, you know, going to the mall, getting more. Let's just talk about that shift. Because for your whole life, Colin Kaepernick sort of sticks out, you stick out. You don't look the same as your family. You don't like the same as most of your community. And then you step into a sport and you go to a college and all of a sudden you blend in, you find yourself, you find parts of yourself you didn't know existed. It becomes this like beautiful new version of what you get to exist in. And in a way, you're like anonymous again, in a beautiful way. In a way that I think everyone should experience, like being both anonymous and special. When you're an athlete, you're part of that group, you're part of that. But there's a moment where it all switches for you. And I'm really fascinated as to like how you dealt with that and what that meant for you. Like, where was the moment where it shifted? And then what was it like going forward from that? Like when you, when you're in the NFL? Yeah, it's, I love that question because when I think about what I was doing, yeah, there actually wasn't a shift. The shift was a perception. I love this man. Yeah, because all of the training, all of the workouts, all of the dedication, the film working with teammates, staying after practice, showing up early. Yeah, all of those things were happening that ultimately led to the moment that when Alex Smith got hurt, I was ready to be a starter. And I think oftentimes we look at those moments and it's like, oh, this came out of nowhere. You put it off of you. All of a sudden, like a star is born. It's like, no, at that point, I've been playing football for 15 plus years. I had been, this was year two of me being in the NFL. Yeah. I have been playing in work for 18 plus months with the San Francisco 49ers, just waiting for a crack in the door to be able to get on the field. 'Cause it's like, I know I can do better out there. And that position is tough because it is only like the, you know, like in soccer, you might find a gap 'cause let's say you're a right-winger. Your coach might be like, you know what, I'm gonna play you as a striker for this game while I'll play as a midfield out there. Quarterbacks, quarterback. You get one. There's one, bro. And what made this situation unique too is my first year in the NFL was Jim Harboss first year with the 49ers. Okay. That first year we went to the NSC Championship. Like Alex was playing well. Our team was good. Yeah. The second year, Alex gets hurt, I step into this role. And the first game, he gets hurt in the middle of the game. I jump in, go, we're behind, we end up tying the game, leaves the questions for people of like, oh, it's some good moments in here, but like, yeah. We haven't seen you play a full game. But it wasn't a win. Yeah, it wasn't a win, we haven't seen you play a full game. Yeah. And going into the next week, we have a Monday night football game against the Bears. And the question is like, is Alex going to play or not? Will he be back from concussion protocol? During the whole week, we're sharing reps. We're going back and forth. It's not until Sunday night that I'm told I'm going to be starting. So less than 24 hours before game time. And it didn't feel that different to me outside of the fact of, oh, this is my moment, like, this is my shot. But all of the work and preparation had already been happening. Yeah. And then go out, play well, we win the game, we have a great game out there. And then the questions start coming up. Oh, so who should be starting now? And those questions came very quickly. And the following week, we're getting ready to play the Saints. And me and Alex are splitting reps throughout the week. And coach Harbaugh had not made a decision over who's going to be starting. So it's still everything in limbo. Finally makes the call, I'm going to start the next game. He's going to give Alex another week to rest to recover, go out, play well. We win against the Saints. We beat Drew Breeze and the Saints in the Super Dome, which is, that is not a small task. It's like a rainy night's at stoke. It's all that against you. Yeah, it's just, and that, like, very talented team, go out, we play well, we win. And then it becomes, oh, wait, you can't go back now. You can't, you can't switch quarterbacks at this point. Yeah. And that became the continuation of, Oh, okay. Now, now you're our starter until you show us you're not. Wow. And when I think about those moments from the time I was young, I remember my dad telling me, prepare as if you are the starter at all times. And what becomes most interesting to me about that when I started playing at eight years old when I went to middle school football, went to high school, went to college, went to NFL at every level. I was always put in a backup position, every level. So I always had to work my way into a starting position. And I think that's part of the reason I love sports is because you can say I'm not better initially and try to put me in a position that I shouldn't be in. Yeah. But it's very hard to deny it over time. Player see it, coaches see it, parents see it, everybody begins to see it. and that was the part that in San Francisco. the spring before I started, I was Randy Moss had joined our team. My childhood here was crazy. It's a real. Yeah, it's our end of the day. And during OTAs, which is off-season training activities, that happens in the spring. During that spring time, Randy walks over to me after one of the practices. He's like, hey, if we're gonna go to Super Bowl, you're gonna have to take us there. This is your hero telling you this is crazy. This is crazy. Randy Moss. I'm like, there's a moment of like, Randy Moss is telling me this. I have not started a game for the 49ers. But he's just seen me in practice. And he's like, you're the person who's gonna have to take us there. How do that feel? Oh, I mean, at this point, Randy Moss had played with Randall Cunningham, Dante Pepper, Tom Brady, Brett Farve. Like, he played with stars. And to have him say that, it's like, oh, you've played with all-time greats. Yeah. The confidence that comes out of that, it's like, oh, okay, I have to prove you right. I have to. And that year we go on, we go to the Super Bowl. No way. Go to the Super Bowl that year. My 10th start of my career was in the Super Bowl. It's amazing. But it was such a moment of, I'm a backup quarterback. And injury happens. You come in and play. Yeah. And you have to show that you can do it. And then everything else from there is just a byproduct of all of the work that you have already done. And you have to continue to do it. I was a crazy game, a close game. It was one of those games that you hear about outside of sport, even when you're not in the sports. It was just one of the, it wasn't like, didn't you throw for like record yardage as well in that game? It was, what was it? I feel like I remember like your numbers. I just remember them at the time. People kept on saying, we've just never seen like a quarterback throwing these numbers in a Super Bowl. It was wild. 300 plus yards in the air. Another, I think, 60 plus on the ground. Yeah. It was, it offensive stat wise, great game. Yeah. What I will also say, for us as a team going back and looking at the film, we didn't play well. No way. Like, it was not a good game for us offensively. Even though, I mean, we put up, I believe, 31 points in the Super Bowl. For us walking out of there, we're like, we should put up 40 plus points. We played bad, basically the whole first half of that game, like little mistakes. Yeah, you're in there. They just piled up head turnovers. We coming out of half time, we kick off. They return it for a touchdown. It was like, this is so abnormal for us. And second half, we turned around. We, we come back in the fourth quarter. We get within five yards of the go ahead touchdown. And we come up short. And it's like, that is obviously not the way you want to end it. Well, we'll say is it does put you in a space that being so close, like you, you know what it feels like to be there. Yeah. It's like, oh, we have to go harder to get over this hump. And you start for me. I started preparing as soon as we got back. It's like, I, I can't live with that feeling. Yeah, almost like the only thing I know how to do in relation to that is go back and get to work to try to make sure that doesn't happen again. Don't press anything. We've got more what now after this? We're not doing that. We're not selling people out. And you're also not going to take our careers away while we're fighting for black people and then be like, be the face of the thing that says we support black people. Well, it's not actually supporting it. That's interesting. So you don't have time to process the moment you don't have time to process because it's the joy of reaching the Super Bowl. It's the historic occasion. It's your 10th start. It's a, it's a thing that wasn't promised to you, but you were part of creating for yourself, being chosen and then stepping up to the choice. All these, you don't even have time. You just got to get back in and then start, start working again. You're in the NFL. You're playing football. And then, you know, man, like all of a sudden, like, like cat in an alley again, another thing comes and tackles your life and it's protests. It's America going through a period where it felt like every single week we were seeing police shootings of unarmed people, black men oftentimes, most times actually. And then like the videos were contradict what the police were saying. Every single time we be a statement, the person did this and then the video would come and be like, but they didn't do that. And then you sort of trust in society, fraying and all of this was happening and the midst of that. And you really lay this out beautifully in the book. It's like you, you have this moment where you are, you're basically processing everything that's going on and you make a decision. And I honestly, I hope that people who think they don't like you, and I'll say think because they don't know you, but people who think they don't like you, I hope if they only read one part of the book, I hope they read that part because I think it's shaped so much of how people think your thought process works. But it really showed me that there was no "right" way to do it because everything in every part of your story was what someone told you to do the other way around and then they shifted the goalposts. You shouldn't protest like that. You shouldn't have done it like, well, why didn't you do that? Well, why didn't you do that? Why didn't you? Take us through that moment, please, like, you know, because let's start at the beginning, the very first time that you decided to not stand for the anthem. What was going through your head and where was this and how did it happen? So going back to the moment of first sitting during the anthem in August 14, 2016, pre-season game. And to point this moment of reflection, an important context leading into that is, for the years prior, I've been educating myself on black history, systemic oppression, we're trying to get a better understanding of why systems are moving and operating the way they are. And what that is looked like historically. In the midst of doing that, I get injured in the 2015 season, three separate injuries, tore my labor, tore my UCL and my, tore my meniscus, had to get surgery on all three. Before you move on, actually, with the story, let's just rewind on this because I, this part of the book was really revealing to me and it made me have a deeper level of empathy and respect for athletes. You made me realize in a really crystal clear way that we as fans take for granted that the athlete is not necessarily completely aligned with the sports organization that they work for. No, because I know we're going to go down that story and we'll come back to it, but you just reminded me of something you talked about in the book about those injuries. When you were getting looked at by the team, they didn't tell you that you had a torn meniscus. They didn't tell you that you had a torn part of UCL, UCL. They didn't tell you that they didn't use those words. They were, they was a contusion is what they said, contusion, which is essentially a bruise. Yeah. The minimization of it. Yeah. Well, it, what you realize is the team doctors are paid by the team. Yeah, they're not your doctor. They're not your personal doctor. So they're not therefore a well-being. It depends who you ask. But in practice, I look at things from an incentive structure. Yep. Show me the incentive. And I'll show you the outcome. They're incentive is to do what the team wants them to do and position things the way the team wants them to position it. So for me, I first injured my shoulder. They looked at it, told me it was contusion. I was like, all right. So I just have to deal with the pain. Keep playing. Keep playing. It was a game or two later. Get tackled with the football in my hand like this Tear my legament here and they look at it like oh it's it's a contusion like you just have to deal with the pain and Through this process every snap I take and practice excruciatingly painful but I'll say you have to get into mind of a football player as well. Mm-hmm. I There is a difference between being hurt and being injured in a football player as well. Yeah being hurt is like This may be extremely uncomfortable, but I'm not injured where I can't play. Okay. Mm-hmm Like part of the the race within NFL season or football season is What team can stay healthiest throughout this season? Yeah, so? When they tell me like oh, it's just a pain thing you have to deal with the pain For me is Oh, I can do that right If that if that's what I have to do there. I'll do that and I'll navigate it because I need us to win Right like the goal is winning Pain just becomes a obstacle in that next game or couple games later get tackled him on the knee swells up contusion and the only reason I actually found the found out that these weren't contusions is because my now wife Nessa. Yeah, it's flying in from New York and Comes to visit me and Game Ray to lay down for the night I'm laying on my back And I didn't know at the time, but I had to tear my labor on the front of my shoulder So if I just laid there like this My humorous was putting pressure on the tear So I was like I can't sleep like this like this is terrible So I Stacked pillows all around my arm, so I could sleep on my back with warm up I was like all right, this doesn't feel bad So I'm doing that and she looks at me she's like What the fuck are you doing? Like what is that? Like well, it feels better if I sleep like this She's like you need to go to the doctor and get an MRI like what are you talking about? Now they just told me a scintusion like I'll be all right mirror Go to the doctor So I go to the doctor Get an MRI Comes back and I oh, it's just you know, it's just a little tear Like just a little tear like we'll deal with it. No worries. You can check it out the end of the season. Yeah And this point I'm like Well, you told me it was a contusion and now it's a tear now you tell me it's a tear I'm gonna get a second opinion that's not affiliated with the NFL So I sent it off to a doctor in Vail Colorado Peter Millet checked it out and It's like you have a significant tear like you need to get surgery I was like well, they told me this like No, you need surgery or you made tear the whole thing All right so I mean at this point I'm like I don't even know how to approach this like Hey, I have to go get surgery. It's what the doctor is telling me and I don't trust y'all So I go back and I confront our our head trainer at the time and I This is one of these things that in saying this I Know there's gonna be a reaction that people are gonna be like That didn't happen because that's too wild trainer goes Oh, well, I told you it was a little tear because of my southern accent. No You know, it's just it's just a little tear a little tear and I won't you won't you go ahead and play more games Colin It won't you go ahead and ignore that over there? With accent he blamed on his own accent. Yeah, that's that's wild when I tell you the The level of rage that I can imagine Now it's like I need to go out of this office because This is not good. This is also a sport way if I understand your your your contract isn't guaranteed, right? Like it doesn't work like so in the in the in like for instance in a Premier League football If you get injured you you still get paid they pay you because they go you got injured doing the thing that we pay you on duty 100% on duty, right? And then I think basketball is the same in football. It's not like that, right? There have been a couple people that have been able to get guaranteed contracts a couple. Yo, come on. There's two that I can think of the fact that it's even called a guaranteed This is crazy, but otherwise like your contract isn't guaranteed they can cut you tomorrow and be like Hey, we signed you to a hundred million dollar deal or a three hundred million dollar deal And actually we may not like that tomorrow and we'll cut you and we don't really and we don't owe you that money Oh, I didn't know was that level But then but then it's not a deal, but it is it's not a deal with it We need to make sure you never get your own NFL team you'd be a menace this guy deal with it This is like a man. So what are you gonna be doing next week? What do you mean? Well, you're not gonna be here. What do you mean exactly? So okay, no, because I want to paint some some some context for the people this so you're dealing with all these injuries now We now we you know we flesh forward now. Yeah, now. This is you you injured you in that season. So injured As I go up to veil to get surgery. Yeah, I also asked him can you check out these these other injuries or other areas that they told me were Conductions right like yeah, you you tore the legament in your thumb Which is that's my throwing hand right? like Navigate that Did a scan of my knee like tore your meniscus in your knee had to clean that up. So at one point I'm sitting in veil I have a sling on my left arm. I have a cast on my right hand and I have a sleeve on my left knee. I was like this This absurd like I just need to get healthy right to get back off you but What it also did this was the first time in my career? That actually had to be still Wow That there was never another moment that was like you can't go trained You can't go practice. You can't go and I'm in veil. I still have to go do my my rehab but the rest of the day I'm saying there I'm like all right, what well, I do yeah and Continuing to read continue to research as part of this and months and months long as far as rehab and during this time period Mario Woods is killed in San Francisco and At that point in time, I was visiting my family at home. I'm seeing here watching the video I was like they they just execute this man in the middle of the street and the video looks like a firing squad like police have them surrounded I Said he had a knife and was threatening them He There was no scenario where he was any threat to them and They kill him and you just you hear all of the officers shots just ringing out saying here. I'm like this this is on the back of Mike Brown to mere rice Freddie Gray like we're and those are just the high profile ones those are just the high profile ones back of Sandra bland like we're we've seen this so frequently at this point and it's like what what am I going to do what can I do about this and that actually became the moment that I call my wife Nessa and I'm like Seeing this like we have to do something and we start think about what we can do and that's actually where the birth of know your rights camp came from Oh, yeah, yeah is December of 2015 and As we're building know your rights camp we're thinking about how we get our community home safe how we protect them as we're doing that There was also a realization of What a low bar to set to be like hey, let's make sure our community doesn't die that then may as think about what other program should we be building around this to help them thrive and I think that ties into some of the perception you were talking about. Yeah. relation to how we are described when it comes to journeys or where we're coming from, that's like, we've set the bar down here for you so low that when you cross that bar, it's like success. It's amazing. It's like, no, the bar should be here. It's just been low for so long that we've accepted those things. And so we were doing that work and as we're doing that, all in sterling is killed in Baton Rouge. Philando Castile is killed in Minnesota. And it just becomes this culminating moment where everybody's looking around saying we need to do something. We have to do something. And the question becomes, well, then what are we going to do? And who's going to do it? And for me, the first time I protested, obviously, is like, I don't believe in the propaganda of what you are selling me. I believe we deserve better. And in that belief led me to protest. And when it became public, wasn't until three games later. That's the third game. That's what I mean by the significance and the detail is so important in this. One of the biggest criticisms that you experienced, and I think many people experienced, is that they did not protest in the correct manner. This is oftentimes the criticism. People will say, they'll say, you know, Colin, I'm all for, we live in a country with first amendment freedoms. You can speak your mind. I'm all for, but do it in the right manner. Do it in a peaceful manner. Do it in a way that isn't disruptive. Do it in a way that, but just literally so people can't hear from you, because you write this, you write this. Yeah. Literally, your protest at the time was you sitting where saying on a gatorade cooler. That was it. While the anthem's playing, the man is sitting on a gatorade cooler. It's not interrupting an anthem. He's not cursing people out. He's not fighting with people. It's not, no, no, no. He's just sitting quietly. Who's Tulele, as we'd say? Yeah. He's there. He's just like, he is, he's, he's quieted himself. He's quiet. Yeah. He's the way we put it. It means like you are to yourself and you've quieted yourself. And you bother no one. Three games. You're doing that. It's not a thing. Then something happens. Then after the third game, finished playing. This is the first time I actually stepped back on the field coming back from my injuries. And cleaned up in the locker room, our PR team comes over and they're like, hey, we've got a request from Steve Weish that he wants to talk to you after your press conference about why you weren't standing during the Star Spangled Banner. I was like, oh, okay. And I could tell they were a little nervous. Yeah. And they high-pitched the request. Hey, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, we're just, you know, you know what? The part, the part that definitely comes through is the, the hesitation and the stutter in it. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. And you could tell there's something more there. I'm like, all right. So I go do the press conference. Everything's fine. Talk to Steve Weish after. Talk to him on the side. He's like, hey, I want to ask you like, why weren't you staying for for the Star Spangled Banner? And I remember he was like, you know what comes with this, right? Oh, damn. And Steve Weish is a black man. Damn. He's like, like you, you know the implications. And I was like, in that moment. Yeah. Because at that point, I had already been studied. History tells us this. Yeah. Whether it's Muhammad Ali, whether it's Kurt Flood, whether it's Tommy Smith and John Carlos, whether it's Mahmoud, whether it's Kareem, like we, we have seen this. Yeah. Owens. Yeah. Yeah. Owens, like, it's not a new playbook. Right. And I said that to him in that interview, like, I know this could cost me my job. I know it could cost me endorsements. At the same time, I first collectively, we have to look at are the fear tactics and consequences that are potentially placed in front of us, going to be the thing that stops us from doing what is right and what we know is right. Yeah. It's safety and incentive. Yeah. And that to me, that becomes the lever that is held over us. Yeah. Is because coming out of slavery, because coming out of Jim Crow, we have been put in a socio-economic position. Yeah. That's like, yeah, there is more poverty. Well, you want to get more money, right? Like, you want to live a better life. What comes with those dollars is the expectation of that professionalism. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you look the way we want you to look. You act the way we want you to act. You assimilate to the culture we want you to assimilate to. And to your point, anytime you stray off of that, right? It's like, well, we need to cut that thread and make sure that everything else stays intact. And the reality is, the status quo of what we are living in isn't acceptable one. And the bar, not only is the bar too low, it's quite literally killing us. And that's not only is it killing us, it has been made legal to do so. In full view, in full, in full view, and also, it puts us collectively in a position that is, well, do you just accept it? Do you hope it just misses you? Like, it doesn't knock on your door. Yeah. And you just, all right, let me see if I just do the right things. I can avoid it. And ultimately, what we see, it may not knock on your door. It might knock on your neighbors or to rest your family. Like, in some way or fashion, ultimately, it is going to come back to you. The thing that people also don't realize, I know Barack Obama quoted Nelson Mandela on saying this, but Mandela said something that truly was one of the most powerful things. And it's stuck with me in my brain forever. These systems, what a lot of people don't realize is they imprison everyone. And he, he had the famous line, he said, he learned in his time in Robin Island, you need to break these systems up because you need to free not only the prisoner, but also the god. And that's, I think that's what made Nelson Mandela unique is that like, he had a compassion for his captors that people didn't expect any human being to have. He made friends with them. We always talk about the stories. He befriended, they had to rotate his prison guards so that they would not become friendly with him. Yeah, but also sympathetic to his cause. Because when they spoke to him as a person, they were like, wait, this guy seems reasonable. This guy seems actually, these are good points about the country because this is one of the biggest misconceptions I think people have. We always assume that we are all experiencing the same reality at the same time. Yeah. And so we judge other people for not coming to the same conclusions that we've come to because we're like, but we're both seeing the same reality. You get what I'm saying? But, but what's interesting about it is when you realize you're not seeing the same reality, when you realize a huge majority of white South Africans did not know what the black experience was at all. Yeah. And it's not that they didn't care. No, they didn't know. And how could they know? The news didn't show it to them. When you read about Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Most of his campaign was him trying to get the images and the videos to the white people in America because he believed he's like, yo, if they see what's happening, they will then have a different understanding. And I think you, it's funny. You were almost, I know this is crazy to say, but it's you're almost like ahead of the curve because when black lives matter really explodes, when the pandemic hits, when people now no longer have the social or the social economic constraint. And you saw how they responded. And the distraction. Black and white were marching in the streets. People collectively all over the world were saying, hey man, something just just needs to change. Imagine that for a movie. movement to move from the United States to Paris, to Spain, to. - Yeah. - It can't just be like people being, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. I'm going to join in." And I was like, "No, actually, we didn't know that this was something that everyone was experiencing." And actually, what are we doing? - It needs to be done. - Yeah, but the timing of when you were doing it made it so that you didn't have the cover of the collective. - That's a good one. - You know? So you were the one who sticks your head up first. So you get, you're in this world. You know, you approach, you go, you kneel with your teammates. It becomes, like, let's do it respectfully to be together. That's still not accepted. Everything is not accepted. Everything, we go through this world and I'll speed through what now people know. And I want to get to the other side. Let people read the book, but I want to get to the other side that people don't know. For a lot of people, it felt like Colin disappeared. For a lot of people, it's like, if the people don't know, you'll know your rights campaign. If they don't know you and your community gatherings. For many of them, it was Colin disappeared. Where's Colin? There were moments where we saw you throwing the ball and saying, I'm ready to play in the NFL, but the NFL wouldn't have this. So just, you know, help us understand. Like, what happened in that end part? You know, they shut you out. You took them to courts. I don't know what you cannot, cannot speak about, but what actually happened and how did that conclude? - Yeah, so coming on the back of the protest, the NFL black wall, they couldn't get a job with any team. We did a full breakdown of this in relation to, was this look going back to facts and stats? Historically, someone of my caliber that has performed the way I have, has there ever been a scenario where they haven't found a job after a season? Not a single one. So, the data supports that. - Right. - The reality also supports it in relation to, went to go visit the Seahawks. Everything they're asking is about the politics. - Damn. - The following year, they called me to come in for a workout. They've already said, like, we know you're a starter. Call me to come in for a workout before I get there. - Yeah. - Or before I'm supposed to be on the flight. Call my agent and I like, well, before he comes, will he commit to not taking a knee? And I wouldn't commit to that. Cancel my flight, workout never happened. So, there are plenty of instances of this happening. And also just to be explicitly clear with it, no team has ever offered me a job at any position. Now as a starter, now as a backup, not as a practice squad player. - Damn. - No position whatsoever. So, going from a starter to nothing. - Yeah. - On the back of that filed agreements against the NFL, that is laid out by the CBA process, which is the collective bargaining agreement between the players union and NFL. So, you have to go through that process. - Yeah. - Part of the terms of that process, which I would say candidly, I did not know going in, is everything is confidential, which I thought there would be an opportunity to expose all that. Had a settlement with them. I'm gonna say, it is also interesting when we talk about systems and incentives. You have to go through a special arbitrator as part of that process. That has agreed upon between the NFL and the NFLPA. At any point, they can be fired by either one of those. - Mid-opitation. - I believe mid-arbitration, but also, from my understanding that agreement, at any point, they'd be like, we don't like you. - Yeah. - So, going back to incentives, that became a factor also during that time period, 'cause we had looked at, "Can we take this to the Supreme Court?" - Right, it's a factor. - We also saw the Supreme Court flip under Trump. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kavanaugh gets elected. Gorsuch gets put on the Supreme Court. Both of them backed by NFL teams and organizations. One by John L. Way and the Denver Broncos, the other by Michael Bidwell and Arizona. Which then made that not a viable path. So, ultimately got to a settlement as part of that. As part of it, I was still able to seek employment. - Yeah. - I can obviously still say what I want about the NFL. - Right. - But to the point of why haven't you spoken in those things? During the time period, I was protesting. It's fascinating to be able to see perspective. Over and over again, I heard, "Oh, well, you're talking so much." Like, why is he always on TV? Why is he always have press conferences? Why is he always, which all of those were mandated by the NFL as they started in quarterback? Like, you have to be available for the media three times a week. That's your obligation. That's your obligation as part of your job. So, I can't control what they're asking me, but what I can control is I'm gonna be honest when you do ask me. So, the volume of that was significant during that 2016 season. Everybody was coming to asking. - It becomes fuel in the flame. - Yeah. And it's like, "Oh, we'll get clicks out of this." Like, we like this. It's good momentum. On the back end of that, there was also a realization of, within media, within society and culture, at a sense that it was like, well, you are the leader within this. - Yeah. - And I was like, to me, that's not an appropriate position of like, the leader. It's like, there's people doing work across the country. It has extremely valuable. And that needs to be elevated. And part of that is, and this is some of the learnings that we take from Ella Baker. It's like, not only do you need strong leaders, you need strong people. - Yeah. - We have to be strong collectively. - Right, right, right. - Which also means that someone who is viewed as a leader, there's times you have to step back and allow other people to step into leadership position. And lead from the back. - And part of that was also the realization of like, as they were trying to discredit me, it was like, well, if they can discredit me, they're gonna try to discredit the movement based off of that as they proxy. It's like, we'll make you illegitimate, which means anything that you are talking about is illegitimate. - illegitimate, yeah. - It's like, that's not reality. So how do we elevate more people into that space? - And for me, that is one of the pieces that was extremely important. The other part is, generally my leadership style is I'm gonna do the work. And I have to do the work if I'm going to ask other people to do it. So while people may view it as, oh, you're silent or you're not on TV talking and doing these things, we're doing direct work in the communities. And we're doing across the country, we've done it internationally. And that became the focus of the efforts, like how do we organize on the ground better more collectively? And now this becoming an opportunity to be able to re-engage and reignite that and be able to take that further, but that work never stopped. Part of it just becomes like strategy around where we think we're gonna have the biggest impact. What is your relationship with Jay-Z? Now, where does that stand? Because that's become like a Twitter guessing game. You know, people are like, Jay-Z said this, Colin feels that, I don't know anything about any of it. And I hate to assume, but I just wanna know because I'll lay out what I've seen and you'll tell me what is or isn't. But like some people frame it as if they go like, Jay-Z joined up, teamed up with the NFL to help them. They said he was coming into like, you know, revitalize not just their image, but the way they did the game based on you. And then the camp split, some people say, it felt like Jay-Z didn't focus enough on the original messaging and focused more on the entertainment side of things. And then the other camp goes, no, Colin went off and made his own deal. And that's why Jay-Z and Colin don't see it. So I, and then the other day when he was like, at his one of his concerts, he said something about it, he's like, yeah, in the freestyle. How do you see the situation? Where does it land for you? Yeah. I mean, I, we have very different perspectives as far as how we operate as a people. And for me, there was a point in time rock nation was trying to recruit me to be represented by them. So Jay-Z, where am I? My jersey on SNL. So I had tried to reach out to him previously. and part just to say thank you. at that point for the support and wouldn't take a call, wouldn't take a meeting, which all good, like, - On strange, but okay. - I agree, but it's strange to me 'cause you were wearing my jersey, that's the only reason you're saying that. - Yeah, that's strange, but okay. - And your organization is trying to recruit right, right? - But I don't know what people have going on, so I'm not asking for anything. - Right. - Now, on the back of that, he'd ask me to come on stage, take a knee while he performs story of OJ. I was like, that's weird, you won't get on a call with me, but like, you want me to do this. I was like, no, but would love to sit down if you have time. - My man. - You're like, no thanks. (laughs) - I don't need to be a prop. - Yeah, it's all good, it's all good. - Right. - But where the real issue came about was, I believe he has started negotiating with the NFL in 2018. During that time period, the NFL had built up an organization called the Players Coalition to be able to end the protests in the NFL. - Right. - And explicitly giving them a payout to be able to end the protests. They came to an agreement. The next week, they stopped protesting. - Yeah. - Eric Reed, Kenny Stills were part of those meetings. They were like, we're not, we are not doing that. They had been protesting with me from the beginning. So there was a split there, and part of what came in advance of that deal was a player's owner's meeting. Where, within that meeting, it's Roger Gidell, it's Jed York and Bob Kraft and Terry Pagula, Stephen Ross, all of the decision-makers within the NFL. And Terry Pagula during that meeting was like, we need a black face to help us lead this. Now, I've never heard anyone explicitly say it that way. We need a black face to put out in front. And they tried that with the player's coalition that wasn't successful. And Jay-Z was the 2.0 version of that, in my opinion. And part of that is during the grievance process, we have all the documents, we have the discovery, we have the insight of what was actually happening. During that process, prior to me coming to a settlement with them, they had also offered me that position to have. And it's like, we're going to continue blackballing you, but will you be the face of our social justice initiatives? And they offered this to me as well as Eric Reed. And there, there was a nice price tag associated with that. I can imagine. It was like, no, I'm not, I'm, I'm not going to do that. Eric was an ignorant, we're not doing that. And you're also not going to take our careers away while we're fighting for black people. And then be like, be the face of the thing that says we support black people. - Why not actually supporting that? - That's interesting. - Exactly. But he did that deal. And then during that process, this is where I just, I looked at as very disingenuous, is he did an interview with Andrew Bean, I believe the Wall Street Journal. During that interview was asked, have you spoken to Colin about the deal that you just signed? And he said, no. The next day, I get a call, or I get a text, hey, can you get me a call from Jay-Z. All right, something must have happened 'cause it's been a couple years or a few years at this point that we, I've been trying to have a conversation. You won't get on the phone all of a sudden. It's like, hey, we need a call. During that, shares, I did a deal with the NFL. And I was like, well, can you share like, details of what it is, weren't a whole lot of details at that point. I was like, I completely disagree with what you're doing. And you're selling the culture out, two people who do not care about the culture. And he was like, well, the ink is dry. I was like, well, that's, if that's how you feel, just keep my name out of it. And that was my one ask. Keep my name out of it. And the press conference, the next day was, we're doing the deal. We're past Nealine. We shouldn't be talking about Colin. And on the back of that, what we saw was, and we got direct calls on this. Like they had been playing out hit pieces on us and trying to plant stories. Oh, he's already had a job. He doesn't want to play. And we had journalists call us and be like, hey, we're like, we got these calls from rock nation. Like, is this, is this true? Like, what's up? Like, no, absolutely, that's not true. So a bunch of them came back and we're like, oh, well, we're not going to run those pieces. And then it was like, oh, well, we're going to run an ownership story. Like maybe he'll become an owner or whatever. So it pivoted, but we saw a definitive effort to try to disparage me in that process. Like, we got the calls. And for me, that's where it's like, I can disagree with what you do. But I'm not going to maliciously go out there and try to derail what you're doing. - Right, yeah, yeah. - Like, that's on the line, you, yeah. Yeah, like, that's a, that's a different type of action. I don't care to partake in. Man, your life, the craziest part of it is that it's not even finished. - Yep. - It's already like multiple movies. - Yep. - I know you've already made one. You talk about that in the book with Eva Duvenet. The one thing I'll say to you is honestly, thank you. Thank you for, for, thank you for how you've shared your story, and I genuinely hope everyone reads the book before they say anything. Just before they say anything, because then you see like every shadow and every light you see, every complexity, every grain, every wrinkle, every detail, then have your opinion. But like, you've written a really beautiful book when you've told a really wonderful story. I think it's nuanced. I think it's layered. I don't think you can just come out with like one flat idea. You know, I, I loved your parents. I also felt bad for them. I felt bad for you. I enjoyed parts of the NFL. The parts I got angry about, you know, thought about justice, thought about the system. And the biggest shout out, I have to give, yo. Oh, that's the book. There it is. There it is. Hold that up. I'll hold that up. That's right here, man. Let me tell you something. Biggest shout out. Because the, I think a lot of the time the shout out will won't be said, because it isn't as, missing mentioned as clearly as it is here. - I represent it. - The lady in your life. - Yeah. - Let me tell you something, man. - Exceptional. - Let me tell you something. - That's your wife. She, the way you talk about her in this book, she is one of the structural walls in the house that is Colin Kaepernick. You talk about her in the foundation of your program. You talk about her in helping you recover and looking at what you need to do to your body. You talk about what she's done for your mind. You talk about how she supported you in the whole world. It was against you. You talk about how you strategize together, how you live together, how you laugh together. You talk about the birth of your child and how stressful that was, how terrifying it was, how painful it was. I think a story that many couples, many women, many men can relate to, you know, almost losing a newborn child. But, man, the fact that you don't tell the story as if it is only yours, you just tell it from your perspective, is honestly one of the goaded things I've ever seen anybody doing their book. So shout out to Nessa, because I know this isn't without her. And it's amazing that you've told the story so that she's not a footnote that people then have to try and find later on in life, man. Thank you for that, because Nessa is exceptional. And it is one of the things that I think goes underappreciated is, when we think of, for me, when I think historically, when we think of-- Oh, yeah. Grinchpot, King? Come on. We think about Coretta, Winni Mandela. You name it. You can just keep going down a list. And all of the women that have been leaders in their own right. And for me, one of the special moments that we had early on is we got to spend time with Lani Ali. Wow. And she was giving us insight and preparation for what was to come, wow, and how we should be thinking about it. And that was from her own lived experience. She phenomenally strong. And well, I think about what Nessa has done, what she's accomplished in her own right, and how she has supported me. I wouldn't be sitting here today in this way if it was not for her. - Yeah, you can feel that. So, I appreciate you calling that out. - Oh, man, we appreciate you. - This has been amazing. Carlton, thank you so much. Thanks to your team for making the time, taking the time. I don't think it wasn't, of course. This has been amazing. - Of course. - For real, man. Thank you so much. - Of course, of course. - And as we would say back home, you're welcome. You are welcome to join us at any time. - I appreciate you, Daniel. - Thank you so much for the pleasure. - True enjoyment. Thank you. This segment is brought to you by YouTube Premium. You know, I've been thinking about how some of the most interesting ideas I come across, aren't from conversations that I'm a part of, but it's the ones that I over here, or I stumble into. And no, I'm not talking about gossip. That's a different thing I enjoy. Sometimes someone is talking about something and suddenly I'm carrying that idea with me for the rest of the day. It's one of the things I love about YouTube. There's always something happening there. Interviews, podcasts, documentaries, people who've spent years going deep on a single topic. Sometimes you're searching for something specific. Other times, you just land on an idea you hadn't even considered before, and it tends to stick. I'll hear something while I'm getting ready or walking somewhere. And then later on, I'll find myself saying, "Hey, I actually heard this thing today." I'm like, "Oh, yeah." That's from YouTube. It turns into a conversation somewhere else. Now I'm sharing it with another human being, but I don't always want to be tied to a screen, right? Sometimes you need the video, of course, but a lot of the time, especially with interviews, podcasts, documentaries, it can start as something you watch and then you continue as something you just listen to. And that's great. That's what I like about YouTube premium. Background play means it doesn't just stop when the screen does. So you can start something over breakfast and then you lock your phone, put it in your pocket and keep listening as you go. And let's be honest, that feels closer to how life actually works. We don't really get long uninterrupted stretches of time to sit down and learn. That's not a real thing. It's more like 12 minutes here, 20 minutes there. And now I have a PhD, you know? And I don't know. I like that curiosity doesn't have to wait for the right moments. YouTube gives you access to all these people and ideas. YouTube premium, let's the move through the day with you. If you like YouTube, let me tell you, you'll love YouTube premium. Visit youtube.com/premium to sign up now for your free trial. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel, anytime. What now with Trevinoa is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevinoa Sanasiamin and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer, our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Paduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.