Colin Kaepernick: In His Own Words

Now I want to bring on a very special guest, Colin Kaepernick. Colin, it's so great to see you in full disclosure. Colin was my client. I represented Colin in the case against the NFL. Colin and I have worked on various initiatives together, whether it's No Your Rights Camp, the autopsy initiative within No Your Rights. And we've been involved in various endeavors together. More importantly, Colin's one of my best friends in the world. And he's like family to me. I give you all of that in full disclosure going into this interview. So doing this interview with someone who has all of that background with me. I just want the audience to know all of that. But Colin's out with a new book. It's called The Peralace Fight. Make sure you all order this book or buy this book. Now it's out in stores. You can order it online, support independent bookstores as well. Colin, I want to talk about this book, The Peralace Fight. And it's hard not to situate it in the current experience that we all are feeling in the United States. I think the psychological torture that Americans are experiencing, what you warned against, when you took a knee, and when you were speaking out, and when you've spoken out. And so I want to remind people, though, that back in the first Trump regime, you were one of the first people that Donald Trump targeted a private citizen. You were out there, superstar quarterback, brought a team to the Super Bowl, San Francisco 49ers. Then Donald Trump got up there and Huntsville, Alabama, he said, get that son of a bitch off the field. And that was one of the first times, if not the first time, that we saw the office. I mean, he had been making social media posts on junior. There was a whole right wing movement to cancel you. But that was one of the first times we saw a president in a public speech like that, go after a private citizen, go after an athlete. Let's just play the clip to remind people, and I want to talk about it. Let's play it. When you love to see one of these NFL owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say, get that son of a bitch off the field right now, out, he's fired. He's fired. So, Colin, the book is the perilous fight. That's indeed perilous. That's the president of the United States saying that. That has ramifications and consequences that you've experienced. Talk about that moment and how you think it relates to this current moment, where this is what this guy does now on a daily basis, it seems. Yeah. I mean, thinking back to that moment, what we got was initial insight into presidential overreach and targeting of private citizens and in many ways that that seems like the first moment that that was tested, whether or not people were going to combat that or just accept it as it is. Now, the other part that we saw in conjunction with that is the corporate partners in part with the NFL and the close relationship with Donald Trump and being okay with this and supporting it and helping him take that further. I think the part that's important for people to think about in this moment is we don't want governmental overreach into being able to impact private citizens' employment opportunities, private citizens' rights. There has to be a clear distinction there and what we're seeing with the President, this administration is not only the willingness but the excitement to be able to target individual citizens. I think that sends a chilling message, but it is something that we collectively have to combat and fight against. Now, one of the things you were warning against and you just touched on it there is that it's not just at the level of the presidency, it's at the level of the oligarchy and one of the things that you were warning about back then as well was there's a power structure here of people who are owners. Not just owners in the NFL, but ownership, right wing oligarchy, people who control the kind of methods and the means of production who are treating workers horribly and who have a very hateful view of the labor that actually supports the enterprises that have made them rich and have viewed it as a source of exploitation. So when Donald Trump says those things and when he says these things today, it's more than just ranting and ravings of a lunatic, which it is. They're also marching orders for an oligarchy and that was what you were warning about then as well. When you were telling NFL players and people within the culture solidarity is important, we can't break because if we break, they're going to pit us against each other. Talk to us about that. Yeah, we got to see the oligarchy operate in real time. Donald Trump, he had Robert Kraft, who's the owner of the New England Patriots flying on Air Force One with him. We got to see him operate and there's a reported phone call between him and Jerry Jones where he says this is a winning issue for me. Essentially telling Jerry, you need to fall in line, which he abides by. We also see it with the fundraisers and events that the NFL owners are out there doing raising millions of dollars for him and in many ways going out and kissing the ring. For context, for those who don't have this background, believed Donald Trump previously sued the NFL when he was trying to start his own football league. So there was always tension there, but he was able to get them to step in and say, here's my position of power now. You have to kiss the ring if you want benefits. And we're seeing this play out, not just the NFL, but across corporate America. We're seeing CEOs go into the White House, offering up gifts, making gestures and capitulating to him. And essentially saying, whatever you want us to do, we're willing to do. Even if it's counter to our interests or our employees interests and our workforce interests. And being able to see that play out in real time, I don't think it's something that we can be complacent about. I think people need to be organizing against it. They need to be taking action against it. If not, we're setting precedent where that just becomes okay and becomes the norm. One of the things you talk about in the perilous fight is the people were and are behind you. You had to rally the players and rally leaders in the community as well to be behind you. But there was also a playbook to try to attack that. And one of those tactics was trying to find people within the movement or people who are perceived to be to work against it. And so one of the issues that arose was Jay Z. And how Jay Z was working with the NFL ultimately doing something that you wouldn't do. And the very first thing that took place in a meeting was saying, we've moved beyond kneeling. We need to not take a knee. And we need to start focusing on another paradigm of change. And it was the one that was kind of being force fed by ownership. And it was not the one that was being organically moved by the people and by the movement. And so people are often asking you, well, what's this whole thing with Jay Z? And Jay Z performed at Yankee Stadium. And Jay Z said, you know, negative things about Colin in 2026. Like, why is Colin on Jay Z's mind all of the time? And I think it's important that people know the framework that one of the things that was taking place was trying to find an individual who would be able to basically say, we're done with kneeling. We're done with this. We're done with having this solemn protest that was gaining such. Talk to that. I mean, am I perceiving that right? Or what's going on? Yeah. Well, we see the NFL owners explicitly call this out. In their players' owners meeting that happened in 2017. And coming out of that meeting, we have reports of Robert Kraft, again, the owner of the New England Patriot saying, you know, the elephant in the room is this kneeling and the protest, we need to address it. And then you have Terry Pagula, who is the owner of the Buffalo Bills on the back of that. Coming out and saying, you know, we need a black face to help us end this. So we're hearing very explicitly from the NFL owners and that oligarchy class of we need a black face to help us subvert the protests, work counter to the people's interests. And we're in search of that. They tried it first with the players coalition. They tried it with me directly, trying to offer me a major deal to lead their social justice initiatives while they're actively black-balling me, which to be clear, that wasn't rejected, laughable offer there. At the same time, we then see Jay step into that role and effectively fill the void that the NFL owners were looking for is that blackface to be able to subvert the protests and what we really see is this alignment of you know classes. We see a billionaire class in the NFL owners. We see that aligned with with Jay Z's interest personally but working counter to the people's efforts and working counter to the people 's goals and again all of them financially benefit from it but what is left with is the people on the ground having to deal with the realities of police still killing black people of the present industrial complex of not having the resources to be able to thrive in their communities and we're seeing these efforts continue to ramp up and that was in Trump 1.0 we're seeing this now in Trump 2.0 and the alignment of interests across all of these different sectors. You know one of the things that I think had gone under reported there was a little bit of mentions of it back in 2018 is you know Trump was trying to make a deal with you and we hear about Trump trying to do all of these deals right now this deal that you know I'm gonna do a deal I'm gonna do a deal after he said get the son of a bitch off the field like we showed shortly thereafter he was you know apparently working with like Kanye West and other people to try to bring you to the White House to do like a black summit or something they're gonna call it like that where they wanted you to basically you know have him put his arm around you where you put his arm around him in the oval office and be like you know you know he's he's cool with the black community right like he's like he's he's one of us he's our guy and and you know and you said what you said man I'm not doing that why would I do that I'm not I'm not gonna do that what do we talk but that so when we see him do that stuff now he would say get that son of a bitch off the field but then he wanted to meet with you and he wanted to bring you into the oval office for this apprentice style cum by performative moment and you were like nah yeah it what I've learned over the years is there is going to be a constant attempt to be able to co-opt people who are trying to work for the benefit of the people and what we saw in this moment was you know part of that conversation what was relayed to me was the outreach came from Van Jones for this and you know they wanted to have us come in I don't know the details around it because candidly as soon as it came up as hey here's the opportunity it was immediately rejected again this is after him going out publicly and trying to target me in my employment what what it also speaks to again is we talk about this alignment of interest within this oligarchy him trying to garner support and put up a facade that he's working for black people or trying to be in the benefit of black people history shows otherwise there's a longstanding history there whether it goes back to the real estate side whether it goes back to the exonerative five those are those are not debated things those are well documented but again it also ties this this oligarchy and this clash struggle in here we see we see the connection between jump Trump connection to Van Jones Jay Z Robert Kraft with the reform alliance and ultimately what we see is on the other side of that you know partens being handed out and we're seeing those pay for play right now and I think this alignment of interest that we're seeing and them trying to to reach out to give the marketing and the facade and the perception like hey all of the negative actions that we are taking their counter to your interests let us put on a good show and try to give you the visibility and perception like we're trying to do good for you which actually is just not the case and that has been proven time and time again look you fast forward to this past week and you have Maclamore saying that Robert Kraft called the other owners and said can't let him play you can't let him you know play in these stadiums and then he's like I got kicked off the tour and he says he says Ed Sheeran called him up and said Robert Kraft said you can't play at Gillette Stadium and told the other owners you can play at his stadium and now he's like I'm now been kicked off the tour and again I mean I think these were things that we're seeing now repeat over and over and over again and it shouldn't just be a deli story it shouldn't just be this happened to Maclamore this day and this happened to someone the next day I mean you were you were profoundly warning that this is not the way this should be happening and you were warning about it in 2017 you were saying hello this is what they're going to do and Colin people were saying you're being hyperbolic you know that's just some lefty stuff like lefty stuff aren't we all supposed to be against like government intruding into our lives and blocking people why is that a lefty thing it's great right well it the part that I hope people appreciate and take away in this moment is what Robert Kraft and what they're saying by denying Maclamore the opportunity to go out and perform with Ed Sheeran is they are willing to collude they're openly colluding and when we when we filed the grievance it was like well the owners wouldn't do that they you know everybody just wants to win within the NFL and the realization is no they want to protect their interests they want to protect their power they want to protect their money and they also want people to know that if you take an action that they don't agree with they will come for you and that was some of the warning coming out of the protest and some of the warning coming out of the grievance is that they will organize against you which means that we collectively have to organize to be able to protect our interests as well and I think I hope this gives a space where people realize how significant this is and also gives a little bit of insight into the fact that while it may not touch you today at some point is going to come knocking on your doorstep or someone you love doorstep and that's not the moment to be able to take action we should be taking action actively right now it's perilous to go up against the power structure and for those who even dabble with it they find out that these people who control the methods and means of production wield it and they're gonna and they're gonna do what they can to protect it and they don't give a crap and and and you saw that but one of the things we're seeing now that I want to get your take on also though as a QB leadership I think so much of what we're seeing in the debate and the is is through a gamified political lens who's up this time Democrats up Republicans up this person I know and traveling with you you hated that gamified political you did was not your thing you didn't want to talk about and and and I agree with you but you know I that that's just not my and it's not because you don't care about the issues you were always telling me it's actually the politics distorts that these are human values and core principles that we need to be dealing with and one of them that I just think isn't talked about it's just leadership it's just grown up adult behavior and now as a QB you have to be accountable to your team when you win games it's great but you're up you're down you have a good game you have a bad game you don't win every game when you lose a game you don't go I want I'm really the winner I'm really the winner that was unfair I directed that and so much of this for me Colin and why I stepped into this I'm watching this behavior I'm inspired by you frankly and what I'm observing from the presidency from the commander in chief someone who's supposed to be the QB of the nation is loser behavior loser behavior that you've seen on the field that someone like that wouldn't be in the locker room with you know you'd be you'd kick that guy out of the locker room in a second over there you know and he's the person you know this is so is to be called it's unfair the Democrats that this and that and how though the power structure has normalized this loser behavior which has to be permeated the way the world views the United States in a very bad way now so I want you just talk about that as you observe this behavior from Trump the whining that this that what's your reaction to just the behavior from a leadership perspective as a QB as a captain I have not seen a leader show up this way in wine and complain and cry about so but You know, one of the things that you were taught early on as a quarterback is when you win, you're going to get more praise than you deserve. And when you lose, you're going to get more of the blame that you deserve. And your job is to stay focused. And when you win, you celebrate your teammates, you give them the praise, you redirect that to all of the work that they put in because that's ultimately why you're successful. And then on the flip side, when you lose, you are supposed to take the brunt of that and be at the forefront and make sure that you're supporting your teammates as you go back to go out there and continue to try to take these actions to go out there and win. I haven't seen a leader on the field or off the field approach things in such a way of constantly whining about that. Like, own your actions, own the losses, say we're going to move forward, we're going to try to get better. But what it speaks to more broadly is the integrity of the position. And what we don't, what we see right now is a lack of integrity and just being forthright with people and trying to approach it with decency. And to your point, we're seeing this show up more broadly across the spectrum. Where now the, we have followers in that regard, in approaching politics and leadership in the same way, which doesn't effectively get us anywhere. It also doesn't lay a foundation where people are approaching conversations and approaching solving problems in a way that's effective. So to me, I think about it as you have to keep the problem, the problem, and that being the focus and taking efforts towards actually solving that. And I think that's the issue is what we're seeing is leadership that is unwilling to take action to go out there and solve the problems. And more so is just taking actions to their own benefit and their personal benefit and some of that oligarchy's benefit. And all of the whining, complaining, become deterrence and distractions from actually focusing on the issues. You know, the book is called the perilous fight and it must have been a perilous moment for you when you saw at the beginning of this Trump regime, second term, a lot of football players out there seem to have been fully embracing this horrific regime early on. They were doing the Trump dance. They were doing the YMCA Trump, you know, whatever you want to call that. People have different names for whatever that is. And they were doing that in the end zone right there. I saw college players, you know, doing it, you know, and you were thinking to yourself, what the hell is going on here now? That seems to have fade, you know, the crazy thing is that there was a moment and that moment's past and Trump has record low approval right now. And we seem to have at least purge this spell amongst the people, we'll see, you know, I feel that's where we're heading is people see this was all the big fraud. This was all the big scam covering up Epstein files, this and that and the other. But you had people doing the thing and I'm like, what the hell is going on here? What were you thinking when you saw that early on, I'm glad that stopped and now you're seeing the culture start to I think become a little more resilient to this, get your take on that as well. But early on you saw that, huh? Yeah. It I think what we saw come out of that was people's willingness to just buy into like the entertainment and hype like it felt like it was more of a movement around like can they get attention? Will it help them go viral versus actually being foundational political beliefs or at least as my hope and maybe I'm being optimistic within that. But that wave has since passed. At this point, I think people have seen Trump for who he is. They've seen the behavior they've seen the lack of execution. They've seen him work detrimental or counter to their interest. And people are feeling that on the ground now and reality is setting in. And I think a lot of the people that thought they were going to get handouts and checks in the mail and get some personal benefits of it have realized that's not the case that he is actually just looking out for himself. And now with that reality setting in, I think a lot of them are left in a space of, well, they got played and got fooled. And now have to go back to the space of what is the next step for me? I obviously can't approve of this now. I think there's probably a level of embarrassment that comes along with that. But now I think we're seeing that that undercurrent in that wave of, you know what, all of the people that we're talking about, he is working counter to our interests. We do need to organize against this. It looks like there's a tremendous amount of corruption happening. We actually need to rethink our position and show what differently. And hopefully we see that play out this fall and beyond. And I'm hoping it also returns to a space of people being just much more pragmatic in the approaches that they're taking and how they're thinking about issues and trying to solve them as opposed to just buying into the hype that people are selling them. So what should they do? Colin, I mean, you know, you're a young player. You're a young black or brown player in this sport or that sport. You see these power structures. You want to do something. You want to say something. You know in your heart when you go to sleep that this isn't right. You know the communities you grew up in and how your family was treated. Heck, you probably still have family or extended family who's being pulled over by ice or being racially profiled or any of these things. But now you're in the league or you're in a position where you're making money. And you're saying, what do I do? I saw what happened to Kaepernick. He could have made $150,000,000 or $200,000,000 in his career and that didn't happen. Colin stood up. History has a kind place for Colin and when people remember the sacrifice he made, but history doesn't buy me a Bentley. History doesn't buy me a mansion. History doesn't pay the bills right now. And so what do I mean, I'm sure this is whether they want articulated or not, a dilemma that lots of people in communities across this country are thinking about as well. And let's go there and then I have another question about how that's probably starting earlier because of NIL and college, but let's start with the first piece over there. Yeah, I have had a lot of those conversations directly with players and I think the piece that comes to mind here is players need to be able to take collective action. When you see an issue and you know it exists and when you want to go out and address it, you have to take action against that. If you have integrity, if you are the person that you say you are, if you are a person that wants to work to the benefit of everyone collectively and not just your own self interest, you should be taking action right now. Now you should organize around that because the part that that the ownership class does not want you to understand or fully appreciate, which is why they take targeted actions like the ones they took against me and in the past have taken against others is they don't want you to realize the power that you collectively have. We'll just take the NFL as an example here. The NFL is approximately 70% black. If the players and the black players in the NFL collectively said, we are not stepping on the field until you address this list of issues and this could be within the NFL, it could be within the political side. You would see a or an ownership class collectively organized to solve that issue immediately because it directly impacts their bottom line. You as players are their product or the product on the field. They want you to think that you're their product. You are the product stepping on the field. Now being in that position gives you a tremendous amount of leverage, tremendous amount of power and control. It hasn't been seized and for players, I think, understanding this, that same message [BLANK_AUDIO] they have tried to send down to players by colluding and blackballing myself and others. Then becomes a message that you can send back to them that, no, we're not going to let you wield that power against us. So I think there has to be this moment of taking action. I think there has to be a moment of organizing to make sure that ownership class is taking the actions that you actually want as players because you have the power to do so. I think that also exists when we go down to the NIL side. We saw this, I believe it was at Missouri. I believe it was the president there had spoken out, taken actions that the players didn't agree with, the players boycotted, didn't step on the field. We saw that, we saw that president of the university very quickly removed. So when you start touching the financial structure and power structure, you will see them move and move quickly and move mountains to be able to resolve that because they don't want that power to continue to be utilized by the players and by the working class. You know, with NIL as well, you know, it has I think this double edged sword and the one part it's empowering, getting paid. And rightfully so because there were institutions making billions of dollars off the back of athletes who were not getting compensated for it. Also though on the flip side which we've seen and perhaps flip sides not the right word but on another consideration is well now you have people right out of high school who are getting lots of money and that could make them subject to unscrupulous actors and their lives and they're very young and they may not have some of these life experiences to say well how do I contend with it. And it also puts them though in a money power structure right away to start being pulled by these moneyed interests by oligarchs who start buying players and buying teams and treating it as a commodity, as property, as I'm going to make a super team and start finding high school students and start giving money and treating it like that. And so what do you think about that? How do people build the resiliency to that especially if they're coming out of high I mean you remember coming out of high school you know and being 17, 18 years old and all of a sudden how do you deal with you know the head of a major a billionaire who's run all these things who's an alumni of university of whatever who says you know what I'm going to give you $4 million a year you know but you got it but you got to do this this this and this and you go $4 million a year oh my gosh how do you deal with them? Yeah it well I would say it is a good problem for players to have to navigate one to be successful at that level that their talents are valued and how they show up is valued in that way. What it also makes me think of is as NIL has progressed we also need stronger infrastructure for our players to be able to have the right right supports in place whether that is navigating negotiations of deals whether that is the financial support on after they get those dollars making sure that they are handling that responsibility because you have you have players that are 17, 18 years old that are walking into life changing money and what can be generationally generational money for them and if they have the right support and structures there that sets them up to be able to to utilize that and benefit from that long term. To your point on navigating some of the oligarchy and the influences there I think that's where the the preparation for athletes has to be much better because I didn't have to really navigate that until I was in the NFL. 23, 24 years old still still young but have more experience and it was still still difficult to navigate because you don't you don't truly learn people's interests and the game that they are playing and what they're trying to accomplish and many ways until you go through it multiple times and ultimately probably get burned in that process and that's where the learning experiences come as far as how they approach it so I think a lot more education to be done a lot more support to be put in place to make sure that as they're getting these dollars they also aren't being exploited in the process. Colin we talked about co-opting earlier in this interview and one of the ways I think Trump co-ops is he brings these sports teams to the White House and he uses them as propaganda press conferences and in the past we've seen sports teams show up at the White House but usually the president says non-political things and hands them you know thanks them maybe gives them you know something for showing up to the White House takes the photo we're used to that we've seen that before that's not rare we can debate that that's what's happened the difference here though is we'll see a team like Indiana win the national championship and then they'll be there in front of Trump and he'll be talking about his agenda his propaganda his hateful and venomous speech and then you have the players behind him you have coach signety behind him and you know I want to zoom in on the Indiana one for a second because you know I would watch college football and I would see coach signety of Indiana as this no non-stands disciplinary guy who said I mold young boys into men and this is how I teach them how to behave I watched him standing next to Trump Trump didn't even know who he was Trump didn't even take the time to say this is signety you know this is who the Trump's like where is Sagnayati Sagnayati you know and then the guy was there in that moment kind of laughing off all of the ridiculous hateful demented kind of stuff that Trump said and to me it was like signety like you know you may be a great football coach or whatever but in that moment right there that's kind of your legacy is you standing next to him with the players who you boasted about molding into men but the behavior that we saw right there to me undercuts everything you taught and does generational damage to young men in a way that you have now contributed to the problem and it's like I look at the guy very differently right now so I wonder what your take is on those moments the biggest takeaway I have in those moments is by going you are showing that you support the actions and the behavior whether you explicitly say that or not or whether you try to approach it from well we're just going there to celebrate because it's been done in the past by showing up you are showing a level of alignment and agreement with where the administration is going and what they're doing in the actions that they're taking and you are also in many ways putting in this instance young men in college in the crosshairs of that of saying oh well you align with this now as well and they're going to have to go back and answer questions around that and the flip side of that is if players are in a position they say well I'm not going to go well are you going to pull their scholarship are they going to be targeted on the back end where are the repercussions that go along with that so you're putting players in a very difficult position and for the players who don't agree with it it's difficult to see a space where they win they either sit with their moral beliefs they take actions say I'm not going which likely leads to repercussions on the back end or they show up and they end up in a position where it looks like they are co-signing what the administration is doing Colin talk more about the perilous fight and grounding movements in the people because the people were always your focus I was actually never about the politics at all I mean because to me when you fight for the people the politics should find you you shouldn't be finding the politics and I think one of the problems that we have is when you're searching for you know the person who's going to save you or this person you're chasing egos and egos are going to let you down and you know the emphasis that you always had was listening and so I think about your creation of know your rights camp and I think about initiatives that you've done and know your rights camp just behind the scenes I mean you quietly do the work I mean you're not out there doing big press events for these camps I've been to them I mean you could do big press events for the camps they're very compelling events but behind the scenes quietly you throw these events across the country where you're you're educating the youth. And you just do it and you don't tell people you're really doing it and you just go and do it. The only people you tell are the local community organizations that work with you to bring the kids to the camps and to get the educational resources. And so it's an interesting kind of paradigm that oftentimes you don't get talked about a lot when you do these things because you're not out there boasting about doing these things. So I don't know. It's an interesting dynamic that I found fascinating knowing. Yeah, it's one of the things that I think goes back to someone just leadership styles and leadership approaches. For me, whether it was on the field or building movements and doing the work on the ground is it has to be grounded in you doing the work and taking action. Going out and telling people, hey, we're doing great things without just doing the work. It rings hollow and people eventually see through that. I think the part that's most important is to your point going out and doing work, it only makes sense to do it if it's actually solving and addressing issues for people. And the founding of Know Your Rights camp was actually based upon the fact of how do we make sure that black and brown kids and black and brown communities make it home safe. And that was the initial founding principle of trying to address this issue of police killing black folks. Now as we're doing that work, obviously, we uncovered so much more that we need to address. Not just getting, getting our community home safe, but how do we allow them to thrive? Whether that's financially, technologically, through education, through health. We built all of these other components of the camp and that continued to expand and grow. That ultimately led to the autopsy initiative where we do free second autopsy that are independent for families who have lost someone within custody, as whether police, whether they're incarcerated, whether they're in ICE detention centers, all spaces that we cover to give transparency because of the issues that we've seen with the lack of transparency within autopsy. This is also shown up with our legal defense initiative in 2020, protecting protesters, providing pro bono legal services, the COVID-19 relief fund, directly distributing resources into communities, again, based upon feedback that we're getting directly on the ground. Community saying this is what we need and this is the support that we need. And we would go out and just try to take action against that and continue to build the organization around it. So for us as an approach, we don't want to make up problems to solve. What we need to do is be phenomenal listeners in the process. In that listening, once we have an understanding of what the issue is, then figuring out how we can go out and solve it and then how are we able to scale that? So I think that becomes important as opposed to, hey, I hope to be this political figure and I hope people look at me a certain way. I, people very quickly see through that. What stands the test the time is going out and taking actions that are to the benefit of people and doing that consistently. You know, what was fascinating to me about being on this journey with you is a lot of people would perceive you a certain way based on what Trump or MAGA would say about you in their sphere and in their echo chamber. But when they would need the autopsy initiative and would want just transparency because they had a loved one who was killed by police and they wanted answers, they were shocked that you took their autopsy, you took their request and you said, I don't even look at what your political belief was, you look at what the color of your skin was, you could be a white MAGA Republican, you could be a black Republican, you could be a black Democrat, you could be a, that's not what this is about. If you, if you submit to this criteria and you want transparency, that's what we're trying to do and I'm from a commissus view from a community where I've seen black and brown people killed in my communities. So that's why I'm raising attention. But just because disproportionately black and brown people are getting, don't think it's not going to come to you next and just we're first. And so we need to be united as people. And so one of the things that I observed and talk about your experience here is you had MAGA people who use the autopsy initiative who left with a very positive view of Colin Kaepernick and said, you know what, they were great, they were transparent, they kept me apprised of what happened, they gave me the answers that I was looking for during the most tragic time in my life. Yeah, it, that was probably one of the most interesting pieces is people would come in with preconceived notions. And to me, I want everybody to have justice to your point. We're seeing this disproportionately impact black and brown communities. And we see that basically across everything, but in this instance of trying to address this issue of transparency within police killings around cause of death. And part of what, what launched the autopsy initiative was some of your past work in Bakersfield where we saw the sheriff was also the corner. So you have the same police department that has done the killing also ruling what the cause of death is. So there's an inherent conflict of interest within that. And in providing transparency, everyone should have that. And we, we have taken those actions and we, to your point, we've seen this with, with MAGA Republicans coming in using the program and being like, this is just not what I expected from you. And to me, I hope it speaks to people in a sense of, while we may have different political beliefs, I still believe you should have justice. If you, if you have someone who is wrongfully killed, it doesn't matter if you're a MAGA Republican to me, you should get justice. You should have transparency and clarity there. And that's how we approach the work that we're doing. We obviously have a focus on black and brown communities again because it disproportionately happens there. But the programs are open to everybody. We need people to understand what is happening. We need systems to change. We need institutions to change. We need policy to change. And that starts by doing the work on the ground in this way. And the part that's been interesting is even beyond the autopsy initiative, this is shown up over the last 10 years in a lot of areas that I didn't expect. A lot of Republicans and MAGA Republicans that previously were like, you know, when I, when I first saw the stance, you took, like, I hated you. And I've seen the work that you've done over the years. I've had more conversations. I'm more informed to have more insight now. And man, I was wrong. And I think seeing people, again, just the consistency of doing the work and trying to do it to the benefit of people, people are realizing that you know what? A lot of the issues that directly affect the black community and black and brown communities. Actually they touch me too in many ways. It just may not show up as significantly. And I think being able to get people to understand that this makes a better society. That is our end goal. And we see it show up disproportionately in where the gaps are. But being able to bridge those gaps and fill those gaps allows us all to collectively move forward in a much more effective way. Colin, even in the heart, the heat of all of the Trump get the SOB off the field, you know, during the litigation, during all of that, when you and I traveled around the country together, you may have only been one minor incident where somebody said, and actually they said it respectfully. They didn't like say, like they would, they said, hey, man, I appreciate what you're doing. I don't agree with it, but I appreciate it. You know, I remember standing next to you with that one. I remember where it was. It was in Texas. But other than that, overwhelmingly in all of these places, people, you know, that was kind of the worst you got. And you and I would be in stadiums and people would cheer for, I mean, in the heart of it, where if you turned on the media narrative, you would have thought you're like the most hated guy in the world. And what we went out into the real world in all of these cities, in Republican cities, in the reddest of the red cities, you were, people were nice to you and you were nice to them. And you would shake their hands and you would take photos with them like that, that's what we saw. And that was a major realization for me, talk to us about that. I think it goes and plays into like this facade. And a lot of the manipulation that was attempted through the media. As we went around the country, as we touched down and interact with people directly, a lot of the responses were very different. And it was consistently different. And I would say in many instances, to my surprise, because I didn't know what to expect walking into some of the communities and some of the cities that we walked into. And to see the level of response is something that gives me hope in relation to where we can go as a country, and where we go as a society. Because I think what is being pushed at the level of administration, and again, going back to this level of oligarchy, is a lot of division that actually on the ground, we're seeing people collectively say, yeah, we actually don't agree with what they're doing. And I think we're starting to feel this undercurrent that's connected to a lot of what we got to see over the last 10 years is people want to collectively do better. What they want to make sure that also doesn't happen is that they're not exploited. They aren't left out of doing better. And the going intention is always, how do we advance? How do we make sure that we take one action after another to get people to a better place? And I think that's the part that people realize and they showed up consistently. And I would say doing that with integrity as well is incredibly important. And I think when you do all of those things, over time, people see that, and they appreciate it and they respect it. And that's a lot of what the experience has been as we've gone across the country. And we want to continue to build upon that because that's how we think collectively as a society, we should be moving. That's how we should be interacting with people. So I think we're seeing a lot different experience actually on the ground versus what is being pushed in other places. Call them. The book is called the perilous fight. It's out now. I want everybody to get their copy of it right now. I mean, if this interview, I know you and I have a copy, I want to get it. I want to get another copy and see if I, and see if I miss something, you know, I want to get more copies of it so everybody should definitely get their copy of this now. But before we go, Colin, why, why, why now, you know, why, why, why release this book, you know, right now, here it is September, 2026, the world looks a lot different than it did when you began to peacefully protest, respectful way, you didn't request, you didn't want the media attention, it was hoisted upon you, everything that's happened since then. You warned about a lot of these things that have all happened, I would tell people, maybe go back and listen to a few of these things that he was saying was going to happen because, I mean, dude, you were warning about ice. You wrote a book about abolishing ice and people, and people looked at you when you wrote this book five years ago, you talked about abolishing ice in the Biden administration, you're like, I'm telling you, this is what's coming, be very careful, you know, and it's, we could spend a whole, you know, a whole podcast just talking about your book on where you focused on abolishing ice and a lot of these government structures that have been turned against the people and why we need more people focused structures to ensure safety and protection and how, but we could do a whole other show of people like, let's do the next one. I have to save some material for another interview comment, but why now, why this moment, why are you ready to publish this memoir right now? To the point that you just brought up, we are, we are in a moment right now where we have to be organizing, we have to be taking action and what I hope with the memoir is, I hope everybody goes and checks it out, gets a chance to go through it because I hope my experience is, and some of what I had to navigate, and the players that we had to navigate within this, whether it is Trump and the administration, whether it's the NFL ownership class, whether it's their co-conspirators to try to co-op the movement. These all became pieces that were incredibly informative as far as how we can actually move forward, how we have to navigate them, and also where they have vulnerabilities. The area is that they want you to feel like you don't have power, but you have significant power and influence to be able to take action and actually create change systemically. And ultimately, what I hope people walk away from the memoir with is we need you to have agency, we need you to be bold, we need you to take action and we need to do it now, taking an approach, a being passive doesn't get us to the goal of actually creating the change that we want. So I think the moment in time we are at and in as a society and as a country, we are in many ways of fork in the road of we are either going to redirect this ship towards a future that is actually built and beneficial for everybody, or we are going to be passive observers and watch the country go down the drain in a way that I don't think benefits to anybody. So taking action now and be bold with it and be confident in it. I have a question for you, this is for me as much as the audience right now. I'm learning, and so here's my question for you though, because there was a time where nobody wanted to talk to Colin Kaepernick, nobody wanted to be around you, no one wanted to do anything, right, at all, then there was a time when everybody wanted to be associated with Colin Kaepernick, and everybody wanted to do a deal with you, and all of these structures wanted to, they wanted you to do this that and the other. And then when Trump came back, everybody who wanted to be with you now were turning their back on you again, and they said, "See you later, we don't want this, no diversity, blah, blah, blah, blah." When the pendulum swings back and they come back, you've always been Colin Kaepernick, and they've been, which I think is one of the systemic problems that we have in our country. How do you deal with it? How do I deal with it? How do we together, Colin, and how do we deal with it? How do we deal with that when they're like, "All right, we're here," and we're like, "Oh, really? We're here because you were in there, and how do we deal with it?" Yeah, watching the pendulum swing and people just capitulate is frustrating. What I will say there is collectively we have to understand the power of our dollar. And this is why boycotts are extremely effective. We're seeing this right now with Target, Target, the pendulum swing, they had DEI policies in place, the Trump administration comes in, they capitulate, they roll that back, and the responses, we're boycotting Target collectively. And we saw that impact their bottom line, which spends a message to every other company out there. If you're taking actions that are counter to the benefit of the people, everyone is going to hold you accountable and it's going to impact your bottom line. And I think that's the action and lever that we have to utilize most significantly. There's other actions that we can take surrounding that. But I think that becomes the immediate lever. The other part that I would say is for all of the companies out there, just know that everyone is watching your actions. Every person in every community is watching the actions that you take. And those who are steadfast in their beliefs and their morals and the integrity and working to the benefit of people, those are going to be the companies that everyone backs. The ones who sway with the breeze and capitulate, everyone is going to remember the positions that you are taking now and the convenience that you're taking within that approach to your own benefit that are counter to people's interests. And when that pendulum swings back and you want people to come support you and you try to position it is, hey, we're always with you. We just had to navigate this situation. People are going to believe you and majority of people are not going to come back to you. So I think it's important that collectively we are steadfast in sending that message because that's one of the key levers that we have to make sure that companies stay true to the mission. And as we do that, it sends a message to every other company out there. Well, I think we said it all. I think the people would like to hear more even. There may be another end. There may be around two or around three, but it's a very special moment for me selfishly personally, but it's been an honor to be able to share this with the people, to share our relationship, you know, with the people. And, you know, Colin has someone who's been beyond inspirational in my life. And it's an incredible honor to have been by his side for that part of history, you know, into the future. And I think you all see here. Why Colin is really such an incredible person who walks the walk every damn day. So the book is called The Peralace Fight by 10 copies of it, not even one, by 10 copies of it, but go take a look at it, read it, and thanks Colin, we really appreciate you. Thank you, Ben, and I will say it is always a pleasure and for all of the listeners out there, viewers out there, I would not be here today and you would not see me in this way if it wasn't for the work that Ben was doing to be able to support and fight for me and fight for other players. And prior to that work, fighting directly in communities and Ben, just to be able to spend this time with you, to see all of the success that you're having and continuing to fight for people and fighting for a better future. Something that makes me incredibly proud, incredibly excited and grateful for all of the work that you have done for me personally and that you're doing for us collectively. Colin Kafer, the perilous fight in it together, me, you, the mightest mighty, all the people out there, not just in this country, but abroad, fighting for freedom, fighting for truth, for empathy, for love, for a path forward. Thanks everybody. This has been Ben Myceles at the Minus.com, or, kids subscribe. Let's get to 7 million subscriptions. Before you go, our book WTF America is available for pre-order now. It's the story of how we got here and how we fight our way back. To pre-order, scan the QR code or click the link in the description. Let's do this. (upbeat music)