Coke And Pepsi w/ Zoe Dubno

Oh yeah, hi, is this middlebrow? Hi everyone, welcome to the middlebrow podcast, I'm one of your co-hosts, Brian Park. I'm Dan Rosen. How are you Dan? Did you go to Burning Man? No. How's your decompression going? My decompression is good. How's your reintegration? Two of my brothers went to Burning Man, though. How's there reintegration going? I just have to listen to their stupid stories about their trips and pretend this is interesting content. We're going to go next year. I think we should go. I also have a video that's now, I don't know, going viral, but getting views where I make fun of how terrible Burning Man art is. And I think now the burners have come back and so they're being served the videos. And they're all like, we don't want to hear any way man, fucking with our vibe. That's how I imagine every person that Burning Man sounds. So, just, did you go? That's just what her voice is. Oh, yeah. Just made up. Yeah, made up European. Made up European. Yeah. Was that a faux pas to talk while you guys are talking? No, it was okay. Okay. Just chat whenever you want. Yeah, there are no rules this but I guess. I just feel I haven't been formally introduced, so should I be waiting for that? This is a common problem where we start just talking and then the guests talk. We like to do a little chat. We like to do a little chat. No, but maybe we should all listen. We're teasing. We're teasing the fact that we have a guest today. Yeah. But they already know that. Oh, it says it in the podcast. It's always weird when people like, you're like, we have a guest today and like, yeah. They haven't read anymore. You think they just mindlessly click on. They have it on iPod Shuffle. They have it on iPod Shuffle under Nana. This shows up on someone's Discover Weekly. Yeah. I think you might like this episode of Middlebrow with Zoey Dubno. Wow. Wow. Author of Happiness and Love, everyone. That's me. That's here. That's my book. Welcome. Thank you, fellas. Just came out. Congratulations. It is? Yes. debut? Yeah. How's the press tour going so far? Um, good. Good. This is my first video, I think, based thing, and I was just saying that the lights, like wow. Flashing lights bike on you. Did you not know this? This is what I was imagining. Yeah. Did you not anticipate lights in a video environment? I just did one thing. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. You've seen movies. I have. But I've never been in one. Well, now you are. Now I'm in a movie in a feature film, the big time in the auto showroom. I can't look that way because it's like this looking into the sun. Do you have better? I'm just kind of used to it. You are? But look at me and Brian. Okay. I'm looking. You look that way. Because I'm imagining, honestly, I'm imagining an audience because we're on a couch. Yeah. We're on a couch. There's no, we're not doing Oprah. Okay. I don't know. Let a girl do it. You get a paperback. You get a paperback. It's in hardback. So. Do you guys just have the gallery? We have the gallery. I should have brought you the hardback. Honestly, I've been reading this on Subway and I feel superior to everyone else because I have it in paperback. Yeah. You can read this fine. Yeah. Special edition. Uncorrected paperback thing. So the paperback thing, I never fully understood. It's just like you. It's another way to make money like a year later. Well, it's cheaper. Yeah. It's that they like to put out the hardback for, you know, real official books. Yeah. I need to read. Don't see put out a book in paperback, it is an original. But then when you have that and you go to the library and then you get the paperback and it's all grubby. Like it's not, it's not durable. Yeah. And then yes. When I throw it around in your, in your tote. If you feel okay to wait a year past when everybody has already discussed the book and everybody knows everything about it, then you can get the paperback. Well, it will happen if you read Trick Mirror. The following year. The following year. It's over for you. Trick Mirror, the GIT Tolent, you know, fabulous book of essays, sitting in the Topos bookstore and then I put it back and I did buy it. Wow. And I still, sometimes now, as an author who wants people to buy my book, think about that and how I suck for having done that. And I'm like, if I saw anybody doing that with my book, I would actually just slap them upside the head. I think people do the magazines. Like I used to go to like the Barnes and Noble. Yeah, me too. And read every magazine. And read every magazine. They put it back. You've done that for? No. I do that all the time. When I add that to Barnes and Noble. I think it's how people get an education and literature. Yeah. I know. I know. It's like getting it from the library, but the library is the store. Yeah. Like, whatever. One thing I find interesting about this or this, what is this? What would you call this? A book. No. What is this thing? It's a galley. It's like a really long twist. I know you guys are big on the computer. A boo. A boo. It's called a galley. It's also called a proof. Yeah. I didn't find a typo. Yeah. No. But I found this too. Because I read the audiobook out loud. I read the audiobook. No. Can I just tell you? That's the only fun one. Can I just tell you, like, my aunt, I think also, like, was like, just so you know, like from the galley. Yeah. And I was like. Is it too late? No. I found them from the galley too, because I read the audiobook out loud. Yeah, yeah. And I read it from the galley. And then I'd be like, guys, guys, guys, guys, we got it. Like, we got to fix this. Just literally stop the presses. Yeah. Literally stop the presses. There was a page that they had turned into already, because I didn't think about this. And maybe I'm stupid. But when they print books, I don't think I'm stupid. When they print books, they make a printing thing, like a printing press, like a stamp. Yeah. Like, they do that. A plate. Yeah. And they had made the plates already. Yeah. And then I had to make them change them. Like, because there was a typo. This was a, my most beautiful play. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Why are they Italian? I just assumed that it's a crafts person, a little crafts person. I think they etch it. Jepetto. Jepetto is etching the plate. Is this customary? Some in the galley. Do they put the marketing strategy? Yes. It is customary for them to do that. We can take some notes from this, Dan. I think for our podcast, we should definitely have a pre-podcast buzz campaign. Big mouth. Mailing. And micro influence. Like that. You guys are a part of big mouth, I think. A part of big mouth mailing. I would, I feel like we're the only. You're not part of theirs, but you're part of my, yeah, the TV show big mouth. Big mouth just means like people who, like, we'll talk about it. Okay. So we're part of your personal, we have a lot of Jews talking about this. Yes, we do. I mean, it's not traditional for like a literary fiction novel to have the number one driver of sales beat my dad. But, he's going, he's going, he's going, he's going, he's going, he's going personally. He's going, he's going, he's going, he's going personally. He's going, he's going, he's going, he's going personally. He's going, he's going, he's going personally, like, putting a gun to people's heads, being like, by my daughter's book. You don't have to be interested in the niche downtown scene. Exactly. It's like, wow, this book really connected with like boomer. Man, oh, about Peter Peel giving dark money to right wing trad influences. Actually, that might not like, I'm just trying to buy pickles at Zeybas. Yeah. The thing is, you're doing an impression of my dad as Bernie Sanders, but something that's really difficult for me is that my dad, because he grew up in Brooklyn, in a, my dad sounds more like Trump, but he's like a left wing guy, but he, his voice sometimes when I hear Trump, like saying stuff, like, yeah, totally, like what Trump's been doing for me. That's the reason Alec Baldwin was good at doing a Trump impression is he kind of just sounds like Trump to begin with if you grow up there. And so he voted for Trump. I did not. I did not. No, you're dead. Oh, no, no. My dad is like, so at the No Kings protest. Oh, yeah, yeah. Has he changed his voice since Trump's election? No. He doesn't sound like Trump 100% at the time. He sounds like if you mixed Bernie and Trump, it's the one. Trump is being funny. He sounds like, oh, you know, okay, a lot of people are saying that Trump does his little like, um, drag queen stick. That's kind of like my dad. Yes. Yeah. And it's hard. Oh, it's the best. That's my dad. That's my dad. No, I get it. My, um, my wife's grandmother is, is extremely trumpy in, in just her personality and, yeah, but she's like, you know, New York, whatever, New York Jewish woman, but with a little bit like Dame Edna. What? Fabulous? Your, your wife or her grandma? No, her grandmother. My wife is Dame Edna. I was like, that sounds fabulous. I like you. I married the Trixi Mattel. That would be good. That would be good. That would be good. The sex would be difficult, but. Are you kidding? They could work. Well, because where would you put the hair? Yeah, where would you put the hair? Brian's going to have to get used to the chewing out. Yeah, I'm so, I feel God for him. I've learned that Brian is from Texas. I'm from Texas. Yeah. I think that's so cool. I wanna be like that. You're not many in New York or say that. Well, as I said earlier when I first met you, you've got Towns Van Zant hair. Who's Towns Van Zant? What the heck, man? Like, coolest, like, like, cowboy, but like, you know, in country, music is like- And honestly, your book has inspired me to be okay with admitting I don't know things. Really? Yeah. I don't know. I'm addicted. I'm addicted to not knowing stuff. I'm addicted to being like, you're smarter than me. Tell me what that is. One of my grades. What's something you didn't know in my general life? Well, today I was being interviewed by a lovely Italian journalist and novelist and- Was it the one who asked I.O. Edabary about that coming to us over? Did you see that video? No. Oh, no. Oh, that was in the mail. Okay. Well, no, this was like a literary novelist Italian woman in her 50s, I believe, so I don't think that she was interviewing I.O. She just asked me if I'd ever heard of like three different novels. And I was like, you know, in a past life, I would have been like, mm-hmm. Yeah. Just to like for no reason. I found it derivative. Yes, but I just was like, no, tell me what they are so that I can read them because you like them. And now I'm getting a recommendation. Because of what she thought that your book was in that universe. No, we were just at a certain point, you know, we just started talking about stuff. I can't remember what they are now, so I'm going to email her about that. It's going to be like, oh, yeah, I think I, yeah, I think I've, I heard of it. Yeah. No, I haven't read it yet. All my list. Yeah. No. No. But on my list is crazy. I will put that on my list. Thank you. At least you read it on the list. So long. You don't know about it. You're good. Thank you. Take out your good reads. Oh my God. I tried to keep a good reads at one point because I kept forgetting every book that I'd ever read. And people are, you know, your writer. That's what I do. I don't remember any books that I ever read. Right? Yeah. I don't like it. I don't. I'm just left with the feeling, but I can't tell you what was in it. I wrote a trick mirror. I bought it because I'm a good person. You're a great person. Sorry. I didn't steal. G is doing fine. I didn't steal it. You stole it. You stole it. I stole the information. You pirated it. You pirated it with the mind. I pirated it. IRL. IRL pirated. In Bridgewood. Wait. What were we talking about? Townsman's in. Townsman's in. When, like, country music was, like, fokie. You know what I mean? Like, he was like a kind of cowboyish guy and he would sing. He died of drinking too much. But he just, it's a high compliment. Okay. It's a high compliment. Wow. You have an ease about you. I'm flattered. I'm flattered. Kind of. He's, you know, like, lanky but kind of cool. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I'm a thing you look like. I'm saying his hair. You've got the town's fans in here. You've got the town's fans in here. Yeah. But as a Texas, I guess you would have reacted negatively to anything that's like cowboyish culture. Growing up in Texas? Or no. Because I guess we didn't react negatively to, like, being annoying Jewish people, growing up on the upper side. Well, my friends were Jewish in Texas. Really? My parents sent me to a JCC. So even. Really? Yeah. Yeah. You've got a good education. Really? Explicably. Yeah. No matter where we go. Random Asian boy. The JCC graduation. Really? That's all you know so much. That's why you feel so comfortable. For preschool. For preschool. Yeah. And would you do a holiday? People think like you were adopted. You were adopted. Yeah. Wow. I love that. Yeah. Because actually one of my friends, his best friend is Indian. And he would go with him to bar mitzvah lessons. And he apparently came home and asked his mom when's my bar mitzvah. Yeah. He's like, you don't get up. You'll have a penny. A wedding that is so crazy. Yeah. It will be 20 bar mitzvahs. No. The amount of Coke and Pepsi we will play at your wedding. Oh my god. Do you know what that is? No. It doesn't matter. It's a game that you play at a bar mitzvah that's about like, what even is it? There are two groups that line up and others say you have a partner and you line up and one is the Coke side and one is the Pepsi side and they're like Coke and the Coke has to run to Pepsi. And then if they say Pepsi, Pepsi has to run to Coke and then you kind of like, whoever, it's like musical chairs. But it's about sitting on laps. Isn't it? There's something whirny about it. I mean, everything about the bar mitzvah thing. It's like it's the whirniest, weirdest stuff ever. Yeah. Although I went to a family bout mitzvah recently. So that wasn't I suppose. And I found the kids like, they were way more isolated. The boys and the girls were completely on their own. Really? I think they're just like. Was it early in the bar mitzvah season? Like, was it just like, do you know what I mean? Because I actually remember. No, but like, think about it. Like, when it's like your boss. It was critic of the bar mitzvah. Honestly, if they opened up that role, I would have lied. No, think about it. When it's the first bar mitzvah, everybody's like 12 and they don't know about like grinding. And then it's like, as the bar mitzvahs continue, they're the like, braver little boys and girls. It came more near little boys and girls. It's not your first bar mitzvah. Yeah, they're comfortable. They're doing it. The DJs. Exactly. And the dancers kind of demonstrate. And the motivational dancers. And then by the time you're in like the spring and most of your friends have had their bar mitzvah already. It's peak horny. It's peak horny people are like, well, we're here. We know we're about to. Yeah, you're like in a dancehall music video. Literally. Literally. Literally. Yes. Yes. Yes. Correct. The grind line. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's like a conga line of like anyway. Yes. And your first bonus. I mean, I didn't have that. Did you have a horny bar mitzvah? No. Mine was like family. And shit. I didn't really have it. I had like a fake one. Oh, no. Did you get to attend? Oh, I went to many. Yeah. Okay. Good. Because your own one is not that good. Your own one is stressful because you're like, am I getting enough attention? Yeah. And then, yeah. And did you get it? I got enough attention, but honestly. Where was yours? So mine, my parents are being really, and I love my, I actually believe that my parents will listen to this because that's what they're like. Wow. But they wanted to be cheap about it because now I, these things are really expensive. So they were like, isn't it great that you and two of your friends that go to different schools all have birthdays around the same time? So we'll do a tri mitzvah with my school and two other schools. You get a threesome. But we did. But at my own bot mitzvah, only a third of the people knew me. Yeah. And I have this really humiliated, I think that this is part of my whole like, you know, this part of your lore. This is part of my lore, I think of like my wounded like persona that would drive on to become a writer. Yeah. You're always needing to be liked by people who don't care about you. Yeah. And, but it's like, oh, I'm at my own bot mitzvah and someone's like, who are you? Yeah. And I'm like, but I'm supposed to be celebrated by the DJ. Yeah. It's supposed to be being like, it's the bot mitzvah girl. Wow. What a wounding trauma. But I had to also be like, no, I love it, mom. Thank you. But I did get to have a very nice, like, luncheon with my family. I really like my luncheon. I'm glad you had a good luncheon. I like luncheon. No, it was luncheon. Where was the luncheon? The house is teacup. Please. I mean, I love house is teacup. No, it was at a restaurant that no longer exists called Kale Ocho. It was a Cuban restaurant. I recall the shrimp that my bot mitzvah being very delicious. Okay. So yeah. Brian, this Brian already knows shrimp, not kosher. Yeah. I had to teach my girlfriend who was Jewish. What can kosher means? Because you went to the JCC. You went to JCC. I went to JCC. And so she didn't learn. So you have a Jewish girlfriend? Yeah. Because you were imprinted early on. Well, I think your parents were like, well, you think your parents consciously were like, oh, we need him to know their culture. He's going to want to be in media when he's older and moved to New York. Possibly. We have to, you know, inductive. I think a lot of our listeners are going to like this book. Yeah. Yeah. For our listeners, what doesn't make more sense for me to describe it or for you to describe it? Do you want me to describe it? I feel like you're probably a bit good. Well, yeah, I have to do it all the time. But it's, you know, the band of my existence. Because when you're with your dad, you're like, so tell this lady what your book's about. Yeah. It is kind of like, like, good job. High bat. No. I haven't even met him. But I. He's good. You'll see him walking around the porous. Okay. He's like the mayor. The book all takes place at one dinner party. And it's one paragraph that's one of the annoying, but kind of my favorite things about the book. But it all takes place at a dinner party in the kind of art, cultural, very... A downtown creative set. Yes. The downtown creative set, which is a cringe thing to say out loud, but I guess that is the true locus of the party. And it's people who used to be close friends with each other, but haven't really seen each other in a long time. And the narrator sort of returns to this very... I would like to hear both of your architecture critiques of their apartment because, you know, you guys are geniuses of... We're in the furniture store. Yeah. We're in the furniture store. Yeah. So that's... No, I got a sense of their apartment. Yeah. I think there was one description of the apartment of a brand, though. It was like, I don't know if this is the brand, though, it would be. Really what? But it doesn't matter. What brand is that? No one's going to know. It's a restoration hardware couch. I think they do, to be honest. They would have a cloud couch. I think they have a cloud couch where they're just like, fuck it. Like, who cares? Like... I feel like they'd want... They'd be like more like a togo people. No, no, no. I guess they're your togo-to-trendy, togo-to-trendy. Restoration hardware couch lets just chuck that thing in our house. And then he gets it re-slip-covered because he doesn't like the slip-cover with his own cost. Our age is like, you know, like, Greenwich... It is. It is, but when you're just like, who cares? Like, it's like, we've got like, masterpieces on the walls. But it's kind of a shitty couch, our age. Well, I kind of agree with you. It's kind of just like a whatever. I think the weird thing about restoration hardware is it's like not... What's a good couch? It's like, made in China. Tell me what the best couch is. Because it's a togo couch. No offense, and I don't want to sit on that. The couch is by Aodo, Copenhagen. Is that our sponsor? No, that's where we're at right now. This couch is good. I mean, so the narrator of my book is sitting on a couch the whole night. Yeah, on this white couch. On this white couch. This is a good couch. I'd sit on this couch. Yeah. But what I want... The togo is trendy, but like in a way that's like, it's too trendy. It's too trendy. Yeah. Like, they're probably... But like, it's not cool. You're probably right. It probably is at cost. This is so... No, you're probably right. This is like the show. No, I like it. The whole book is just amazing. The book was great. I love the... I do wonder because... I read it literally yesterday. You did? Yeah, I love it. I read it this weekend. I loved it. Yeah. I felt so validated reading it. Yeah. I'm like in your brain space. Because I put it off because I wanted to finish another book. And then I was like, well, this is what I'm doing today. I had it. I kept yelling down like, stop sending me these fucking memes and read this book. Yeah, it's hard to read when you're not like in reading brain. Yes. Like memes are like, I want to look at them. So I got it. Well, here's the difficult thing. Your book is one long paragraph with no chapters. So usually, I'm like, okay, you're a good little boy. You read a chapter. You can look at your phone. And so I didn't have... There's no natural breaks. But I did it. Yeah, I know. I like that about it. It was easy for me because I just wanted more. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Thank you. I thought I'd really validated reading it because these are all of the thoughts that I've just complained about. Adnazium. Really? Anyone who will listen and reading it on the page. All right. So you fucking get it. Oh, that's good. I felt that too. Yeah. No, there's some very... A lot of great perceptive of my copy. I don't know why. But I underlined a lot of stuff. I underlined so much. That's nice. I did some digging. You said that this book... It was started as part of your thesis project. Yeah. And you just went to your advisor or your professor's office and just talked shit. Yeah, basically. Like, I mean, he is a legend poet and writer, Don Kean. And he was kind of like, what do you want to do for your thesis? We really only have six months. But we would also just be kind of sitting there talking shit about it because he was like a cool guy. Like, he's older. We would have been running into him at every party if he was a heart rate. We would have seen him at Clemson, you know, and time again. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So he was like, I'm reading all this shit about like, you know, New York, whatever. Like, I need my youth, like, correspondent. That's what you were. I was like a youth correspondent. And I'd be like, wow. Hello, sir. Yeah, I'd be like, wow. I come with the telegram from downtown. Yeah, exactly. And we both love the woodcutters, which is the book that this is based off of. So we were like, oh, my God, this is just your woodcutters, which is an Austrian novel from the 1980s. Yeah. Not one that either of us have read. I'm sorry. No, that's fine. And I'm glad that you admit it. Okay. So you're making great progress. And that was going to, I had other references I got in the book. Yeah. Of course. Of course. No. But the woodcutters, it's like, there's not that much from it that you would need to know to understand my book. Right. It's just that it's also a single paragraph rant about a dinner party and the characters are the same. There's a couple and there's a, you know, that, so you kind of like read, you were adapted those art characters. Yeah. Because I read that book and I was like, oh, my God, this is from the 80s in Austria. This is from my own life. Like, this is, I know this stuff and his problems that he's having. I relate to, but I've got my own version of them, like how you're like, oh, I recognize those things. I was like, I recognize his things, but his things are different than my things. And I, I've got some things. So my narrator has different things than I have, like sometimes, like, she's got an issue that I don't really have or sometimes the, you know, other characters have whatever. But to say that it's like an update of the woodcutters is like funny because it's basically just saying I also wrote a paragraph, a paragraph at a dinner party of where there's a dead person and a couple, you know, so full of neuroses and full of rage, full of rage. There was a lot of rage. Yeah. Ranting and raging. Are you entrenched in the things, the scene? I don't know. I don't know. How dare you write about a scene that you did not know for the lived experience? I've actually never left my house. Yeah. That's something that's part of my life. You've never been to a miscarriage. Where is that? What is that? I even know. What's a miscarriage? What's a miscarriage? So the book, you know, the book is definitely inspired by a certain square. Yeah, but the whole dime square thing, I'd like to say it now publicly to the public. It's very a historical, this dime square thing because-- Yeah, but isn't that all movements? Are a little-- What kind of movement is a dime square? That's true. Nothing. It's literally nothing. It's like a joke. That's what you folks about. It's like an ironic joke that someone was like, oh, it's like dime square, like this little tiny zone. But then it's become this whole weird thing. Yeah. Yeah. We've read the cut articles in New York Times. I know. It's inspiring artists of this generation is coming. I thought that they're all saying that everything's right winged from dime square or something. I don't. I'm confused by the whole thing and I stay out of it. I just like at Dimes the Pizzole. I think-- That's what people should be writing the articles about. The Pizzole at Dimes is the best food that you've been li-- I eat at Dimes daily all the time. Do you get the Pizzole? No. The Dimes daily Pizzole is the red Pizzole. I've not had the-- The dimes. See, this is what the article should be about. I feel so bad for them that they've had to deal with this. I know. I talked to them. I've talked to them. They've had a nice couple. You have to deal with this bullshit. It's crazy. Completely outside of their own making. One of my friends has worked at Dimes forever and we were just texting and she was like somebody called me like the mayor of Dimes Square, which she is. She's worked at Dimes for I think 10 years. And she was like, but when people say that about me, they think that I'm like, like evil or something. Yeah. But it's like-- No. Yeah. Because there's some like ironic post-liberal-- Yeah. Artistic movement that maybe came out of it or some people, I mean, really-- They should be celebrated for the green Pizzole that they have at Dimes normal. Not at Dimes deli. They have the red Pizzole. They're infuriatingly for me because it's the only food I basically want. Well, with your book kind of captures it, that is that it was like a scene devoid of any actual art, I think, that it was like much more about the Bohemian lifestyle that usually accompanies an artistic movement. Yeah. But without any, it was like, you know, the cart before the horse, the way. Yeah, totally. But I think that that's like, you know, focusing too much on the specific of like Dimes. No, I know. Whatever. Like for me at least, I think that it's very applicable to like almost any area. Like, I know, you know, an Italian novelist who read my book, Message Me, I was like, holy crap. Like, I know that world in Milan. Like, those are the exact people in Milan and this is their house and he sent me a picture of the house. I feel like, so it's like, sure, whatever. Right, right. One person can interpret this as like a satire of performative artists, whatever you want to call it. And that feels a little bit reductive because what I particularly enjoyed about this is like the actual like relationships between the characters. And I could relate to all of them where, you know, you, your friends with someone who you fucking hate, but they, they hold the keys to your success. So you're just going to grumble for them. Yeah. And, you know, there's a character who's like middle class and for all kinds of purposes, had a good life. But he feels like he's destitute in relation to this really, really narrow world that he's found in his expression. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're abstract in a lot of the, like the magazine that you worked that you don't name. Right. The actress you don't name. The director you don't name. Right. There is a universal, universal. Right. Is it annoying for you now? Because I imagine a lot of people have like projected their own. Or like who's that? Who's that? This is about X, Y, Z. Yeah. But I'm just like, I don't know. Which we have guests in the last year. I don't know. I don't know. I'm like, what is that? Metrograph? Yeah. Actually, Metrograph I named. I'm just a silly girl. Yeah. Metrograph I named because I was like, whatever. I've been learner. You can name. I've been learner I named. Well, that's just like a, I'm just like the idea that someone would be like, been learner made me buy this couch. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Do you consider this book auto fiction? Give me a view. No, because if it was auto fiction, I would have had to like do those things, sit at a dinner party without talking the whole time. What are the rules of auto fiction? Can you imagine? What makes it? Yeah. Auto fiction is basically just like memoir, but it's fiction. And everyone's gonna murder me for this. I hate when I have to interact with like the literary bro community and they like want to shoot me in the head. Yeah. Like. That's not us, don't worry. I know. But then they use whatever. Yeah. And you're a long chew. It's going to come after you. But yes. It would be an honor. Yeah. That would be an honor. At least Andrew Longchew and when she kills you, she really like, she comes with the receipts. Yeah. And she like, did she almost love me? Is she obsessed with me? Yeah, yeah. I'm like, should we kiss? Yeah. But no. Auto fiction is just when it's like you're writing what happened as it really happened and you're telling a story of a memory, whatever. But the thing for me is that auto fiction doesn't really exist because it's just like that's what fiction is. And you can fictionalize or not fictionalize as much as you want. So you don't think? Like Rachel Cusk, that's auto fiction because it's like the fictional element is not really there and she's telling what really happened. But yeah. You're like, tell Lynn or something. Well, tell? Yes. Well, tell is like his own special thing where I don't know how much what he's saying is always 100%. But isn't that the fiction part? Yeah. That's the thing. Like, what is auto fiction? All of it? Like, like, proust is auto fiction. Really? Actually, with the Italian journalist, we were talking about Dominica Starnone, it was like, I don't believe in auto fiction. It doesn't exist. It's just writing. Yeah. Which I kind of also, like, there's a great long history of writing fiction that is mostly just telling the truth about yourself, about yourself as you're the protagonist. Yeah. But in Italian, Ginsburg, like as an Italian example, in every language, there are examples of that. So, being like, we are an auto fiction movement. I don't know. I'm not that fuss about it. So, do you, you don't think that there is, like, a rise in a certain type of fiction, which is, like, a loosely fictionalized version of the narrator going about, of the author going about their life? There is. But I think that that's more of just, like, a solipsistic version. I think that maybe what people are talking about when they talk about auto fiction is, like, writing that's not that interested in other people, and is really, like, main character, Hendrick, First Person Narrative, Centric, versus something like a, a, a, a, a proof, which is auto fiction. Like, it really is, like, his memories. But he's, so interested in the relationships, and he's so interested in, like, seeing things from other people's perspective that, I don't know. Yeah. So, why do you think there's been such a, like, why, why is that type of writing so popular? Currently. As a, as a mode for, like, the star. I don't know. I don't know. There's a great Doris Lessing essay, a small personal voice, where she talks about, like, her favorite writing is the 19th century authors who would write about, like, great social novels, or, like, very humanistic things, yes, exactly, like, things that are about compassion for other human beings and, like, great stories of their success and, and of whatever, and how those books she returns to, more than other, like, experimental, or for stuff that you might call auto fiction, because it shows more, like, love for humanity, and it's more epic, and, like, it comes still from the small personal voice, like, maybe auto fiction comes from the small personal voice, but these show love and compassion for other people, and an interest in the, in the human. Yeah. Um. And then you can never really be ecstatic. Like, no, I feel like no one's favorite book is an auto, is a book of auto fiction. Right. Yeah. I mean, I read a lot of auto fiction, but you, you know, you can like it, and it's good, but I like it a lot of other people's neuroses. Like, I think it just, I think there's never, this is why I don't care about this to be, to be honest, because it's like, I like a lot, I'm like, you, I like a lot of auto fiction a lot. Yeah. But like, I wouldn't personally, I'd rather, like, what makes it not a memoir, I guess, that you can lie sometimes. What we talked about right before this, like, I don't, it's about this, I've read a million things about it. Like, I'm not even, I don't even feel ill informed. I literally just feel like, this is something I don't even care. Yeah. I just don't care. Yeah. I just don't care. I guess, I mean, I would say that there's like what Zadie Smith is doing is very different than like what? Yeah. At least Bobman's doing, or, you know, at least, what at least Batumin is doing that's very, is very different from what Sheila Heddy is doing, and you could call both of those things auto fiction. Yeah. And that's like, it's like, who cares what the, what the provenance of the material is. I just want to read the writing. Yeah. Is it good? Is it interesting? But I'm a novelist. I'm not a critic. So that's the difference is, is for, for me, like, I'm like, oh, you, like, I love Rachel Cusk. That's like, God to your auto fiction, Rachel Cusk. And I love the Knauzgart. So, but then there's tons of auto fiction where it's like, I, this is just snooze, mixed news. I do not care about the fact that you went to the grocery store. But then there's tons of like fiction fiction that's about going to the grocery store. Yeah. Sometimes I'm trying to cause a lot of the writing. Yeah. That's in my book. Like the Gordon, the Gordon Lishworld where I like that stuff a lot where it's like, this is the mundane elements of a person's life. But why would it matter more to me that the writer lived those mundane days than the way that they can describe what it's like going to the grocery store in a way that's like, fuck, that's what human experience is about. Well, is like, do you think there is like a fear of authors of like, trying to take on bigger stories, bigger narratives or other people's experience? I don't know what other people are. Like, is there a cultural pushback against their own damn belly buttons? And they're like, my belly button did this and my belly button did that. But is that because it's safe? Like, you can't get. Is there like a, I don't know. I don't know. When there's conversation, like, like, when there's conversation, I'm like, I literally don't know. But when there's conversations about like what's safe for authors, it's like, people are going to come for you no matter what and like call you stupid or call you smart and just write something that you think is good. Don't be offensive. If you're going to be offensive about it and like, like cultural appropriation or something, there's cultural appropriation and then there's like writing about something that is a different experience than yourself. Right. Like, I don't, I don't, I think people are writing more just about themselves because maybe they're not that good at looking outwards and we're not in a moment. It's easier to promote and sell if it's about yourself. I hope to God that people are picking what to write a novel about based on what to promote or sell. I mean, if they are, then it's probably like not the kind of fiction that I mean, I personally read. Also, people are asking me all the time, like, is this from your life? Is this from your life? I'm like, bitch. No. Like, yes. Or what? Who cares? Yeah. Like anyone can like fathom that everything is not memoir or autobiographical. Right. But that's like, we need help in the world. But that's because everything in our society is that, like our Instagram help. Right. But also people are performing online on Instagram. Yeah. And that line is so blurry that like yours, the author is now way more part of the brand is selling the thing. And Foucault told us the author was trying to, but it's still alive. But it really is like in comedy, like Andy Kaufman, when he's doing like those, you know, the the Eastern European accent and he's doing that, like, you're like, is this him for real? And you're like, I know it's not him for real, but is it him for real? And it's so funny knowing that it's not him for real. And he's doing that. I think that we could get back to a moment where people have like, no, I think there's no incredulousness at all. Yeah. It's just like, this is real. Watching on the internet is real, even though it's so clearly, yeah, like set up and fake and scripted, it's, I'm convinced it's a real moment. Yeah. Yeah. What's real, Brian? I don't know. I don't know what's real or not. Even with standup, I always felt uncomfortable embellishing too many details and it was like, I feel like the only thing I could tell that I can't do it. But that's what, that's what, I think you should be able to, but then Hassan Manaj got in trouble. I don't really remember what happened with that, but I would die for him for the ability to do that. No, see, I think what he did was, he like positioned himself as like a bit of a brown savior and embellished. I would not die for what he did. Yeah. But then also like, you know, I think part of the reason people were so betrayed by what Louis did was because they assume that there is like a truth and honesty in what he's doing when they're actually-- No. People are mad about what Louis did was because he was a sexual assault term. Yeah, but when I was about the truth and honesty, yeah, okay, maybe a better example would be like-- He was going up on the stage being like, "I'm disgusting." Yeah. Yeah. And I don't like women that I'm disgusting. Maybe Aziz is a better example. Yeah, Aziz is about, well, again, that's just about being disgusting, it was to a woman. Yes, but his whole persona was being like this ultra-feminist. Yes. Well, then I would be like, "Okay, but that's not about authenticity." That's not about authenticity. That's about doing something that's bad. Do you have any self-imposed rules? So like if you are mining material from your personal life, like is everything fair game? Well, I mean, to be middle-brow about it, you know, Nora Efron once said everything is copy, and that's the truth. But I mean, I do have some self-imposed rules of just like, maybe don't put someone's deepest, darkest secret in book. Like, I wouldn't-- I don't think I would do that. Change the middle name. Change the middle name. I also think that there are certain things that I just, in real life, that I don't find interesting. And that it's much more true. Like, truth in fiction comes from things that are not true, but are universal. Like, you can--in writing that book, I didn't need to go to that dinner party and witness certain things. I could invent things that would feel more resonant to people than things that I genuinely witnessed. I know what human behavior is like, so I can say that this is what somebody who has this relationship to someone else would do that would be really bad. So that's why I think auto-fiction, the whole conversation, it's like, why? Why? Why? Well, I don't know. It just keeps-- Some people are very right into it. Yeah, some people are right into it. I don't know. I just like books, man. They rock. Just like books. Yeah. Are people reading books still? I don't know. I don't care about that. I mean, I do. But I also--I'm not a business moment. But you're still reading. I'm still reading. But I am. I get it. I check out most of my stuff from the library. I check out most of my stuff in the library. If you really like something, will you? Yes. You'll buy it. And now I have this thing where I'm like, wait, I expect people to buy my book. So I buy anyone I know. Like I know personally I buy their book, and I buy it in my back. Hard work. Like, okay, fine. Yes. Because I would want them to buy my book. In the world of buying books, I would want it to be the truth that people buy books. So then I do it. And it's not a quid pro quo, but it's just putting it out there. You hear that fuck libraries. Yeah. Oh, good libraries. Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Good libraries. Hashtag. No, Eric Adams getting rid of the library on Sunday. I think he brought them back. Hashtag. Yes, bringing them back. I know. Hashtag. Yes. Selling yourself out for some Turkish airline miles. Oh my god. And you have a bone to pick with people who cling on to the identity of New Yorkers. I don't know. I just don't care. Or you. That's my identity. I don't know. It's once again, it's that the people who are like, I grew up in New York. Like it's like, yeah, I grew up in New York too. Who cares? Who cares? I've been telling Dan to get his driver's license. Like, I have a driver's license. I have a driver's license. I just, I just am bad. I just can't drive. It's almost worse. It's almost worse. Where it's legal for me to drive. No, I'm jealous of you. It's legal for me to drive. But, um, but if you, if given the responsibility to be terrified, when did you get the driver's license? I got it in like in 12th grade and I did driver. Wait, what's wrong with you? You did all that driving in high school? I just stand and it's like, well, I'm in New York. I don't need to drive. Okay. Well, I just don't ever have an opportunity to drive. So my skills just atrophy and then every few years, I'll take lessons again. I have my car here. You have to hustle. You just broke your car. You just got to do an accident. You have a driver's lesson. You have a driver's lesson. You can go get the lessons even though you're fully licensed to drive. Yeah, it's so scary. That's so funny. That would be good. You're weird. You're weirder than me. I had driven since college. It was like eight years later. I was like, well, I'm just going to go on a fucking highway. Do you want to get driving license? We'll go. We'll go. We get the pressure. Yeah. I had to take the, you know, about the five hour pass. It's like tennis lessons. You can only one person can drive at a time. Yeah, you're right. Well, there's the two steering wheels. Yeah. Yeah. The driving teacher. I'm not going to give me another one. I'm going to sit in the back. No, that's right. That's right. Well, you try to merge in the Henry Hudson Parkway. Can I tell you what happened to me with the one time I tried to do that? I closed my eyes and went like that and I looked away. And then the driving guy was like, what is wrong with you and took the wheel and basically ever since that, I have not tried to learn how to drive. That was four years ago. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Oh, God. I don't want to go on one of those. The robot's going to kill me. You're going to kill me. You're going to get all the reading. You can get done in the back of a way, Mu. Well, I already get that reading done in the back. I have somebody else driving human person. I don't, I don't want, I don't, I don't want the robot. You trust the robot? More than humans. I think we need more robots. Do you know how many people are texting? Have you? You're so right. No. Have you looked at other cars? Everyone is texting. What do you do if you're in a cab? And they're texting and they're like literally watching a YouTube video and like they have multiple screenings. How was in the cab with the guy who was watching Gladiator 2 the whole time? The whole time. You had Gladiator 2 on. It's banished. It should be seen. No, I'm not. No, I'm like the screen of the thing. Oh my God. Like on like a Tesla screen? Yeah. Can you do that? You can do so much on a Tesla. It's insane. Oh my God. Yeah, except for sit without going chunk like you literally fly in the air in the Tesla. Hit your head on the ceiling. Yeah. Me personally. You go to zero to 16. You do. I think zero being the bottom and 60 being the roof. Say your partner drives. Yeah, he does. We kind of have a thing where he's basically like I'm no longer renting a car ever again. If you don't get your driver's license because I don't like having to just be, you know, but whereas I'm like, okay, no, I don't think it's cute. I don't think it's cute. I really am just terrified of driving. But the thing that he's from London and he is like me didn't learn how to drive until he learned to drive in his late 20s, so we're both an app. So we're both an app, but he's gone. I've watched him get really good. So I do have like a proof that like from him having to do it. Like he is good at it now. He drives on the wrong side of the road. Well, not when he's here. He can. He could do it. He said that it's like that it driving in America is like toy driving because in England, you all have to learn on manual. They all have to learn manual and they all, um, the roads are much smaller and ever going faster. London is essentially a drive and to bike in. I don't understand. No, to bike good. But you have to know. Because there are no bike lanes. No, there are. Yes, there are. They're called Q. But not on every street. No, but okay, as a very big city biker and like when I was in high school, I would bike in the city also. It is so much safer in London to bike because they've basically done this thing where they've made roots that are just cycle. And if you know the roots, like if you, if you've memorized them, you're like your way home. So then you're fucked. I think you are. And also it's not a great in New York. I don't even have to look at local maps, I'm sorry, walking even in London, you get lost because it's not a great. Yeah. But you look at your phone while you're biking because I got my phone stolen out of my hands in London. That's a thing. That everyone warns you about it. How did you get there? What happened? I literally was just like, oh, shit. What? Like because they come on it on an e-bike. They come on an e-bike, an ultra fast e-bike. And they literally just plucked it out of my hands, like plucked it out of my hands. They nicked it. And then I was told by a security person that it happens constantly on that very same street because a bike lane comes next to the sidewalk right there. So it's perfect. And they all wear gloves with glue sticky stuff on them. So you don't stand a chance. It's like Scooby-Doo-Thieves. It literally is. They steal hundreds of them a day. And what do they do with them? They don't say anything. It's part of them off. I don't remember what nationality mafia, but it's part of a mafia. Let's guess. And it's organized. I don't want to guess. But it's organized. I think it's, I don't want to say I don't remember which one it is. But I think it's Albanian. That's fine. They're white. They're white. Doleep is fine. Doleep is fine. Doleep is on my phone. Doleep is on my phone. Doleep is on my phone. Doleep is on my phone. Doleep are. Doleep are. Who doleene? Who doleene my phone. You're phone. But also I never get a new phone. Like I'm like a, I don't care about the iPhone being new. And in person and I had just gotten a new one because I was scared of the tariffs and my brother was like, get a new phone. Your phone is so broken. In the US. In the US. So I'd just gotten a new phone. And then I was in London and they have ultra fast e-bikes that you can't hear. You cannot hear them. No, everyone, I lived in London in July and every, every single person warned me about this. Yeah. And so I was like, the sticky glove. I stopped using it. And it's in the center. It's in where the most tourists are. And it's in the most walking around. And so I stopped, it was actually very nice for my screen time because I stopped. Glass half full. I really was. I was like, well, my dual and ghost streak is gone. But. You were relieved. I was kind of. I can just, I went to London. Yes, my phone was stolen, but I reconnected with the city. That was so mean. In a way. That was so mean. That was so mean. So because I and no disrespect to Android people, but my friends, my boyfriend's friend gave me an old Android phone that I could use. So I like no one's selling that. Well, they come by, they glue it and they're like, they dry, they reverse back and they hand it back to you like, no, not good for us. The security guy literally said he had a woman where they took the Android and then looked at it and then threw it on the ground. The most disrespect. What a fuck is this? That's tough. But using the Android phone was like amazing because I didn't want to look at anything because I just like didn't know how to use it. So many group chats. Yeah. By imposing my green. Well, that's the ball. I'm a big two year old. So I'm like, what's up already? Like, I'm a little hero with that, but, but the, the, are you a big voice no person? No, but I do appreciate once in a while, no, I appreciate one once in a while, but I put everybody on two time speed. And I'm like, you guys are insane. And Dan does two time speed on one podcast too. Oh, I don't do it on podcasts. Yeah. I like want to hear what they're saying, but when it's like your friend, like, so how are you? Oh, yeah. People are not out there. Yeah. And then you hear them like ordering a coffee. Yeah. Why are you sending me a voice now? Hold a second, babe. I'm just going to, and you're like, I seriously need new friends. Yeah. And so now these Albanian gangsters were listening to these voice memos from your friends. Yeah. But they mailed them all to China. What happens is they like get them all in a back time and they wrap them in tinfoil. So that it can't be tracked. Like they literally wrap them in tinfoil. And then they disassemble them. And then they, well, no, first they mailed them to China and China. They disassemble them and then sell them for parts or they sell them as whole ones if they're like, probably not like emptying your bank account or anything. No, because that's why I was like, Oh, poo. Like my password is so easy to guess. I was just going to get everything. Yeah. And then it turned out that it was fine. But I do know a guy who had his phone, they took all of his crypto. And he had like, I mean, he wasn't like rich, rich, but he like, he had like most of his money in crypto. And the guy was basically asking him, Oh, like, can you look this up for me? And he opened his phone, like unlocked his phone and then the guy watched him unlock his phone. So they saw the numbers and then he just bang. I need to add my street smarts. I know. Right? Actually, you get stole someone's phone and I want to do something nefarious with it. I wouldn't even know who to go over what to do. Oh, you want to up your street. That's what I feel like when you're with someone and they're like hiding their pin number, you know, if you're like, yes, you think I would know what to do with the pin number. Put it in. What would I want? Pin number easy. What would I want with the pin number? Pin number easy. What do you do? Cash out. But then you need the card too. Oh, yeah. I'm like, stupid. I don't know, I don't go to the ATM. No one takes cash anymore. That's true. I wonder if there's no muggings anymore. That's what I asked the guy and he said, it's not a police man, it's in the city of London. They have their own thing. I don't know. There's London and then the city of London, which is a smaller neighborhood that's the business district and they have their own whole, I think they are technically the police, but they're not the police. Do you know what I mean? Okay. They're their own like thing. Okay. So I was talking to the guy and he said tonight, he's no, well, he kept calling the robbers cherubs. He kept being like, and he had a cockney, I can't, I don't want to do the cockney accent, but he kept being like, those cherubs, but we're meeting at like, assholes. But cherubs is like a cute baby. Well, he was being, you know, clearly he has a stick going on where he refers to them as cherubs. Okay. What's the long time you live in London? Well, I'm always worried that when I talk about this, I'm going to upset the immigration authorities or something and then they're going to like, you know, let me ever live there again. Basically, I have lived there for, you're allowed to be there for six months without a proper visa as an American. So I've lived there for the past like five years for like six month periods and then set, but not in a fancy way. Like everyone's always like, okay, by coastal, but it's more just like, I have a British boyfriend. He's an academic. He is there for the school year and then, and then we go back and we're always in sublets. Well, now we're not because he, he moved here because he got a job, but, but we were, it was like, couldn't you get some like Holocaust passport thing? I don't think so. I've been trying. Do you have about this one? But I don't have that good of like once. Like they teach me the such, you see, if you have, oh my God, he gets a German passport. Yeah. My God, my grandmother. So if you, um, if you can like trace your ancestry to a European country, um, where you're like grandparents lived before they were shipped off to or forced them to leave all these rules. All these hoops, we could get Polish, but we can't get it for some like new law that they passed to try to get the Jews to not be getting it anymore. Like it's like, they'll be a left wing government and they'll be like, we want, or not left, they'll be like a liberal government and they'll be like, we want the Jews to come back. And then they'll be a right wing government that'll be like, and we're going to close a loophole. So I think Germany's the easiest. They have the most guilt. Well, yeah. Poland is like, they're, it's like you, anyway, whatever, I'm, I'm trying my hardest with the Polish. I'm, I want the Polish, but that doesn't get you to live in England anymore. No, you have Brexit. Brexit. They fucked you. Yeah. Yeah. I know. And it's really, my boyfriend is holding on to, yes, but while we're doing that, but he, he, he, we're doing that, but, but he, but not for visa for love. That's very important. You hear that? That was for love. That's for love. To me, I would marry for visa or love because what is marriage who cares, but to, he did not want to do that. Okay. He is a married for love. He is a British man of honor. He is a British man of honor. It's just not done, Zoe. Yeah. Does he have a posh accent? He, yeah. He does. He really does. And what has a London twang to it, so it's like, it's a little bit like not all the way on the posh. And what percent of your attraction to him is his accent? I think zero. I think you think if he had just, if you talk like, hey, what's up, Zoe? Yeah. I like him. You like him. I would have married someone for having a British accent. But I do sometimes think about it. Dan cannot possibly fathom. Okay. Marry for love. Would you want to be with someone with a British accent more? That's not as cute on women, I think. Okay. This is what people say. They find out to be crazy. That's crazy because we've had like Hugh Grant or something and then, but there's not a British woman equivalent. I don't know why. Why'd you get tricked? What on your mind? Can you hear her nightly? Yeah. But it's not. She's just hot. You'd have to. It doesn't make someone hotter. I think for a man, it makes them hotter. I think that there's kind of like a dishy London woman accent that's like, I find that to be sexy. I like it too. Yeah. You're going to be a little mean to me. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're going to think I'm dumb. Yeah. And I like that. Yeah. Or kind of like not a posh British accent. That's like, I kind of like it. I don't know. Didn't you ever watch Bake Off? Everyone was on that show. Canceled in different varieties. Really? I think the guy who was in the mighty bush was canceled. Was he? No. I don't believe you. I don't believe you. Are you going to take your phone out and Google it? Because I don't want to. I want to cast aspersions. I don't want to. Take your phone out and Google it. No offense. He was so boomer. Is so boomer. My mom is. No. I don't mean that. I mean, I mean the thing of like talking about something and then taking the phone out to Google it. The number one person that does that. My mom. We have a mildly successful podcast. We owe it to our listeners. Get lost. It's okay. No things everyone wants to want. I don't want to accuse someone of. I don't think that he is because I think that he is a nice guy. But I think that the other guy got canceled off it. I want to be a my dad. The polymarket says 65%. Can I ask you a question? What the hell is this polymarket thing? It's just like sports betting gone crazy. But how did it like like now it's everywhere? Yeah. Just bet on everything. And everyone being paid by it is everyone secretly doing spawn con for it because I see it on my stuff so much and I think everybody is doing spawn con for it. I'm doing it for the lovely guy. I can't buy anything. So I retract. I retract any no. I feel like there's one celebrity book club for this to be featured in which one would it be? Sorry. I'm taking a sip of water. It was an obvious answer. Obviously. Yeah. Which one? Oprah. Are you kidding? I mean, Oprah would never pick it. The answer is obviously Oprah. She filled her number. She filled her number. Doleepa is so cool. Yeah, doleepa would be amazing. Doleepa would doleepa would make the most sense. Doleepa would make the most sense. Emeralverts would be great. Kaiagurba would like to be great. Why is this the thing that every celebrity honestly? I don't know, but to get people to buy books, who cares? I guess it works because there are just influencers there. They have a brain. They're trunks. They're think influencers. Condoleezza rice. I don't know. I don't know, whoever. I don't know. I mean, I think that it's all nice stuff. I mean, I'm diplomatic. I'm a diplomatic person. I'm gonna manifest Reese Witherspoon's book for this. You think? Yeah, you and Elizabeth Gilbert. Honestly, Elizabeth Gilbert is so cool. She's crazy that book. I'm obsessed with how she told on herself about the craziest stuff ever. Yeah, she's crazy. She's amazing. What's that mean? We should all know less about each other. Yes, yes, but I want to. For those who don't know, Elizabeth Gilbert, we talked about last time. We touched on it in the last episode. She admitted to murdering, trying to murder her friend. She enabled a lady friend. Her sex friend. More than lady friend. No, but I think I would call it my lady friend if I was her friend. If you were a gay, it's late in life. You discovered a lady friend. I've discovered things before my wedding. It's my lady friend. She'd pray love murder. Yeah. And coke and heroin addiction, I think. Yeah. For her lady friend. Yeah. And be a sugar mama kind of. Yeah. Yeah. She's, but she's like, like, yes. Hashtag yes Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. I want to say Julie Robertser in that movie. Actually, keep going. Actually, Elizabeth Gilbert wrote some short stories in Harper's when she before eat pray love stuff that are amazing, that are like high brow literature amazing. And like, she's good. I like Elizabeth Gilbert. Okay. People like eat pray like. Yeah. I don't know. I know she wrote that she wrote coyote ugly. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Great essay. She wrote a great essay. Yeah. Yeah. So you know what? Justice for Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah. I think justice for the woman she almost killed. Well, I think that she honestly has her justice, which is like she owns a town. Yeah. In upstate New York, which is my kind of thing to do. She bought a town and she's basically just like. Oh, you're my friend. You want a house? I'll put it in your name. I don't even care. Now she bought the friend a town. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she bought the whole town and now she lives there with all her friends. Wait, so what is it that you would do? You would be the you want to be the recipient of a town or you want to. If I mean if Julie Roberts played me in a movie and I got a blank check for a bajillion dollars or whatever, I would be like cool. I'm just going to buy all my friends houses. Are there towns for sale? No, but she just was like, I don't. Okay, look, I'm not a historian of Elizabeth Gilbert, but I'm pretty sure she bought a house and then she was like, oh, that house is for sale. Oh, that house is for sale. And then it's like, great. Well, I'll just give it rather than like rent it out like a evil person. No, this sounds like you're slowly buying out every single home kicking out the local population of a Lansing, New York. I don't know. The whole miners are like, is it a killer? No, she's eat, pray, evict. Why do you think? Why do you think that they were selling it? You think that she was making them their desperate? But what if they just want to build a railway that's the town? I'll get those minds. Yeah, no, but I think that she just wanted to give her friends houses and make like a colony, which is how I want to live, like a liberal arts college, but it's just my friends. No, everyone wants to live with their friends. Everyone just goes to go to college. Yeah, remember how good that was or I don't know what you had as an experience for that. No, it was just, but it's not real life. Yeah, I don't want to actually you don't want to actually run in like you enjoy running into people all the time. I don't want that we grew up on the upper right side. So it's gonna happen no matter what I run into every single person in my life. But I'm just like, hey, what's up? I'm going over there. I started to ignore close friends now. I see them across the street. I don't have time. I don't have time to get better at being like, hey, what's up? No, it's not interested. They don't want to have that. I mean, maybe I want to go listen to Oberlin. This must happen you all the time in New York. Yeah, everybody I know all the friends parents. Oh, yeah, you want to stop. I have a talk with the friends parents, but you can usually get out of it. Those are the hardest to get out of because you've got to give you you've given me driving lessons. Okay, it's true. I'll give you getting out of a stop and chat. You don't want to be in. I'm kind of on dance. I don't like playing tennis with the Central Park because you always have a stop and chat with some random. It's a great connection. And then Brian has the sat there. You know, it's been like, okay. No, you are right. I don't like to be the accessory to a stop and chat. I want to be the accessory to a stop and chat on this podcast. Oh, yeah. Well, we have some Jewish geography to get through. Yeah, we're not done yet. And we're not done. We have a lot more to do at the end. If you talked about Molly Stein. Oh, my God. Yeah, she anyway, whatever. We'll take that out of this. Yeah. No, she wrote me. She read the book. It was her first post pregnancy book that she read. Wow. Yeah, you wrote in our doc. You wanted to ask, what do you have against bleached curly hair? Oh, yeah. Okay. Nothing actually. You really come for nothing. Nothing. A little fiction. That's actually about my own self. You don't have curly hair. Well, that's because my hair is straight right now. But it is curly-ish. It's bleached. Well, it's, it is chemically lightened. Okay. But that's about, at one point, I did have very, very- But you mean like, who's the actress who's in wedding? Julia Garner. Yeah. She looks great. And at one point- Now what your book says. It's because I'm thinking about myself. Oh, it's the character. The eye catch straight is in my own book. You know what I mean? And I, when I was in college had like platinum blonde hair. And it would be sometimes like curly. And I'd be like, why did I do this to my beautiful, beautiful hair? I'd be like, you're beautiful hair. You're married to a British man. You're running away. You moved from New York to London. Yeah. I think this is the fake move. Yeah. I think this is the easiest move in all of society. English-speaking countries. And also like London is so maneuvering London. So they're like moving to Staten Island would be a bigger lift. You are completely right. Which is why. Which is why- So you're like following a Lena Dunn's footsteps then? She followed a line. Overland and then the London. She followed it in mind. Her TV show I actually find like really fascinating as a document. And then it's bad and it's a bad and not enjoyable fact. Oh, damn. Well, we've talked about how it's not good. They were positive and negative elements of the television program. The positive is that it ends eventually- However, well, yeah. Well, yeah. I really liked it. But that doesn't come as a surprise to you from this point of view. But you think that he likes worse stuff than you? 100%. Oh, no. And I think Oliver, that's okay. I'm okay. Townsman's in over here. Think in your book, you talk about how people can just like things. Yeah. Just like it. I mean, I'm really optimistic and comfortable with myself. Yeah. I like it. You gave Brian permission to like the mindless slap. Well, I think it's a lot of mindless slap. That's the thing. But I think that, you know, different strokes for different folks and they can go sit over there. My problem is that the different strokes have overwhelmed the strokes that I enjoy. Well, I agree with you about that. I know it's all that stroke. I do agree with you about that. And I was like, whoa. But I also hate the guy that's like, and it's always a guy in my mind that's like, ugh. Like, everyone's ruined everything for me by being dumb. Like, yeah. No, I don't think anyone's, I don't think people are being dumb. I think they're being like lazy. We've all been trying to be lazy. I'm with you. I'm with you on that. I'm with you on that. I'm late. I mean, we're all lazy. Like, I was looking at like what some of the best sellers were in like the '50s and '60s. I know. And it is literally heartbreaking to see what books. I know. With the number one best seller in America. I know. Literary fiction. Literary fiction. Like, Philip Roth. And now you're lucky. Lucky if there's one. Like, it is kind of like embarrassing for me also when like tons of people are like to me. Like, oh my God, it's going to be a New York Times best seller. And I'm like, no, it's not. Like, I wouldn't even dream in my wildest dreams because it's not a book about fairies having sex with animals. Yeah. And that's fine. Like, go off fairies having sex with animals. I had to like write that myself in the margins. Like, but it's just not. So you're not actually different strokes. You also, you a woman, not a douchey man. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, the closing of the American mind. But I don't, I don't want to get, you know, I don't want to say it to people and be like, if you, I just am more like, can you just go over there? And like, we'll just be over here. I just, it's like, what, what does it bring me to tell somebody who loves those books about like hamsters getting railed by like a pineapple or whatever happens? You know, a momentary era of superiority to cope with how you're making this money than them. That makes me feel worse. Like, the fact that I even have to engage with them in a conversation with that, I'm like, you should be over there. And I'm over here. Yeah. It's not even like that type of person. It's just saddened me that people who like consider themselves part of some sort of like educated intellectual class, like do not read books. Yes. And that is. Consider a way. Consider a way. Because it doesn't hurt me. I'm over here. You're over there. But then the books don't get written. If there's no market for them. It's true. It's true. If no one's watching certain movies, then everything is. You are right. It's just Wednesday. You are right. But I think maybe this is my like very high cope. Like my cope is like, it's fine. It's fine. I'll just do what I'm doing. It's fine. It's totally fine. You can retreat into and bedazzle turtles. No. But my issue with the Lena Dunham show to come back to that was more about I think that she has been a little bit duped by the British class systems. Portrayal of itself by the aristocratic version. The posh version of itself in the way that a lot of Americans are. Can you elaborate on this? Like that somebody can be like like it's basically just being like a like fake broke Williamsburg guy. Like but to the highest level that you can imagine because it's like, yeah, my parents have no money. But they have a castle and a title, but they've got no money. Or like, you know, oh, I don't know. There was just something in the show where the boyfriend went to went to grade school. Not too much. Yeah. Went to boarding school with the son of the posh nodding hill dad. Yeah. But then it's also supposed to be this like crusty whatever guy. And I'm like, he went to Winchester with the son of the guy. Like, that's impossible. That's just it. Or it's, or if it's possible, then we have to learn a lot more about the guy and figure out why this guy is like. A fake broke like, like sleeping on people's cows. Cosplaying. Cosplaying. He had trauma. He had something happen to him. Well, that explains the way everything. Yeah. I think I might not have gotten to that episode. So maybe I'm dumb. No, no. Do you think Americans often misunderstand? Yes. I think Americans, it's like they see like like four weddings in a funeral, which is like a movie that I love. But they don't realize that those are kind of the bad guys. Like those are kind of like just-- Like the douche. Yeah. Like it's, no, it's not good. Yeah, like it's not, it's not good. It's not good. That's it. Some of them are great people. But it's like, those are the, that's not what being British is. Yeah. Like in, I wrote some article ones and I like mentioned that my boyfriend was British. And everyone was like, oh, fancy. Oh, like what a fancy person. And it's like, well, actually, it's like a whole country England. Yeah. Like a lot of it is really poor. Yeah, like a lot of it. Like they have Americans are just like way, even the rich, British people are like way less rich than Americans. But much like the media in America, the Brits who make it into the mainstream often come from Eaton and-- Yes. But that's what society is. The fact that they're the bad guys. I'm like, they have a totally stitched up culture industry even more than we have here. Right. Where it's like that accent is of, it's so weird to have like an accent that says I'm rich and allowed to be here. That doesn't exist in America. It doesn't. But it doesn't. But it does. Yeah. I think there are many-- He's from Texas. And he sounds different than a lot of people that are from Texas that are from a different socioeconomic background. Yeah. But like here, I feel like accents are much more tied to race than they are in the UK. Yeah. Well, no. In the UK, they're tied to race as well. There are racial accents in the UK. Yeah. But maybe this is just-- Yeah. Like, I don't know the differences in accents well enough. But I feel like there are like--I hear white people and black people with like cognaxes. That's pretty similar to me. Maybe I-- Yeah. As opposed to in America, it's like extremely clear based on your-- Yeah. I don't know. I don't know why this has become that I'm like an expert. No, no, no. You look like-- I feel like my boyfriend's going to be so funny. Like, you're like, how did you get talking about polishing the sheep? Like, it makes me so happy. It's going to be fun. I feel like you--like, in America, success is like your ticket to anything. And if you're successful, then you're accepted into any kind of party in class. Yeah. And society. And that's just respected. Like, money and success. And again, this is like-- I think that's reserved for only certain industries though. Particularly like creative industries. But I feel like the most successful-- Right. Or the being surgeon. But I feel like even in the UK, even if you-- Yeah. You're still had this marker of your class in a way that-- Yeah. And then people get knighted. They have like knights. Yeah. And then they have like kings and queens. But that's so cool. It's like, if you're the most successful dentist, you'll get knighted. Oh, really? Yeah. I don't know that. Like, I think I want to enter a dentist in England that was like this, sir. I mean, let's be real. Being the most successful dentist in England is a really easy gig. Is it? No. They got the wackest teeth. Wrong. That's another like wrong. No, you look around at their teeth. They just don't have good orthodontia. Okay. But like, they have-- Like, their dentist is free. Like, if you get an NHS dentist, you go to free dentist. They do. It's a dentist, that's not free. I actually-- My-- My dentist, Dr. Berkowitz, was like to my wafer. They took good care of your teeth in England. So-- Yeah. No, they have-- Okay, maybe it's the ortho-- I'm sorry. Yeah, maybe the-- They just don't have those braces heavy of a culture, I guess. Or maybe they do-- I don't know. I think they look beautiful. Yeah. Like, the curly bleached hair people. No, like, the girl in the white lotus, who gets-- Who was before me, Terry? Did you have bad teeth? Oh, the one in the white lotus. I love that. I love your teeth. Her teeth are so cute. They're like cute little snaggle, too. I prefer that to like-- Only two. Veneers. Like, when people have the-- Well, sure. That's great. It's gone way too crazy with that. No one looks real. Just a little braces. It's so scary. It's so scary when someone has-- Everyone looks like Nigel Thornberry. Yeah. No, but even when they just have two white and regular teeth. Oh, yeah. It's just like, what? Like, I'm scared-- Like, looking in your face, there's something in human. And I'm scared of you. I think I need it from a bottom teeth. No, just live. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. It's a problem. Yeah. Or do it. I'm actually of the belief that men should be trying as hard as women. And that that's kind of one of the big problems in our culture. Is that women put in effort to look good. And then only a few number of men do that. So then those men get-- Yeah. Well, besides the gay guys. The gay guys obviously are looking amazing. And they're doing an amazing job. Right. So if your partner came to you tomorrow and said, like, honey, I think I'm going to go a little bit of fill up here. Well, if he got filler in his forehead, I would be scared. Because then I would be like, he's getting that donut head thing. Yeah. Or that. Like a fish. But no, if he was like, like, think about it. Like, women. Or doing hair stuff, hair removing, hair adding, hair stuff. Whatever. Well, talk to your face stuff. He's not for women. No. For other women. No. No, it is. It is. But then men reap the benefits. And then they start to think that they deserve this higher grade, beautiful woman. And then there are-- So do you want more men going to Turkey? Again, they're pushing the band. Literally, yes. Literally, yes. And I want them going to Pilates. And I want that you are. See? This is a really good one. Like one of the good ones. This is fucking good, man. The men should be putting as much energy into it as the women are so that we can all, like, be equal. But then that just creates a more vain culture overall. Or we can all go less. We can-- maybe we should have a son. And everybody just decides that we're all going to go less, but I think that all going more-- You want men to also be victims of the beauty industry. I just want the beauty. I wanted to go average. I want women to stop doing face things because they have, like, derangements syndrome of looking at the phone and then, like, they're scared of their own face. And then I want men to-- there's a smaller and smaller group of men. The great science historian-- Your career is what you want. Danielle Carr, who is a science historian, professor, was the one who did a long post about this that I laughed so hard because she's completely right. She was like, I want them-- literally. She's like, I want the men going to Turkey. I want the men doing, like, extreme weight loss. I want the men to do color analysis. It's so toxic. To be as insecure and fucked up and hate themselves as women. It's terrible. It's toxic masculinity because-- this is her idea. It will fix toxic masculinity because they will have more competition. The hot men will have more competition from other hot men because the men that currently try are too much hotter than the general population of men. This is the great imbalance of their like-- Versus there are a lot more beautiful women. I mean, look around New York. There are a lot-- and you see things. It's like the women are clamoring for the men. I'll be noticing. Exactly. Like, I'm sure you're-- I'm seeing them away. I don't look at anybody. Yeah, that's right. They're my patrols. Everyone's swatting them away. But if there was just the hot guys where a dime it doesn't, which they're not, I mean, no disrespect to the men, but they're not. I think they're hot guys, but they're like-- and maybe in a more slavently-- Yeah. They got to get better. Oh, I think there's a lot of attractive men. I think-- I think-- Because if you reach a certain level of, like, self-maintenance for a man, it just reads his gay. Yeah, but we should fix that. But that's not-- that doesn't-- I don't think that exists as much anymore. But I think it's pretty normalized now for men to be pretty regimented about there. Yeah, I love you. Beauty or rape. Beauty or rape and-- He's right. Yeah. He's Korean, that's why. He's Korean. I was born into this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Listen, I've taken many male friends shopping, and I bought clothes for them. I said, your shoes are bad. That's good. Your pants are bad. Your pants are okay. Your pants are okay. But I didn't notice it. I've taken on an anecdotal level where friends now text me and like, "Oh, what kind of like skin products should I use?" Or like, "Can we go shopping?" He has your Korean. And they're like, "Bren, like you've had a lot of dicks in your mouth. What kind of dicks is this?" [laughter] Take that out. Take that out. I'll also look. Yes. What are we on the time? Did it go by? Are we done? We're way done. Okay. By my book, people of the last thing in the community. Okay, by Zoey's book. Don't be a little scab and pirate her book by, you know, reading over someone's-- We're going to borrow an old and squirreling into a corner. Yeah. And don't even kindle it. Okay. Have it out. Yeah. In public, that your part is some class. And for my-- Have my beautiful cover? Yeah. Yeah. And for my fellow performative males who are listening to this, this is the book that you really-- Yeah. You want to be pretending to read on the subway. Yes, perfect. I love the performative males. This is like-- I agree. We share it on this. We agree. The performative male thing is nonsense. Yes. That's good. Thank you to my performative males. Please purchase my book. Perform so much that you buy this book and you read it and then get your male friends to buy it as well. Yeah. And women. And say thems. Who did the cover of this book? A wonderful artist called Unum Hong who actually came to my book party and she's so pretty. And then I'd just like to say that. What does that matter? Because it just was like amazing. Like a bearing on her talent. It just was-- She was six foot five. It's just amazing to have a six foot five woman who's beautiful. Like come over and be like, hi, I made the painting of your thing and I'm like, yes, you did. It was commissioned. Or it was already existing. It was already existing. And then we were looking for cover and I was literally looking at every art gallery that existed. Yeah. Like I was like looking, looking, looking, looking, looking. Thank you for doing like an actual cover and not just like splotches. I was really-- Yeah. Yeah. Of random, you know, Matisse-like color. Yeah. Color. I was really adamant that we do a good cover. Okay. And then I-- but I really, I was like, I-- she also designed the painter was like, can I just do the text because like, I'm-- it's my painting and I wanted to look the way I want. And I was like, go off queen. Great. And so she did that. Well, thank you for writing this. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. That's crazy. Yeah. And more hopeful about my own artistic pursuits. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thanks for coming out. Thanks for coming on the pod. Bye, everybody. Bye. Listen to us. Subscribe to our YouTube. Yeah, subscribe to our YouTube and we'll be here next Tuesday. Like, share. Bye-bye. When you have finished recording, you may hang up or press one for more options. Okay. That was "Middle Brow".