Cohiba: A history of Communism and Culture

Do you remember the first key that you have to make? The one called the Hooligan, I think, in America. Is that? And there's one also which is like a Toblerone, it's three-sided. No. It was actually a threat to. I think there were eight attempts using a cigar to kill him. Castor, yeah. Yeah. When I first bought my first box on the street. Yes. the man offered to throw in a girl as a sort of gift with purchase. When I look back on it from my deathbed, I'll calculate how many hours I spent. Is it tumbling into Cuban cigars? You'd be mad to smoke them without destroying the values. But there's curious. Of course there's curiosity. But we know what it did to the cat. Hello and welcome to the Luxury Dispatch. The podcast that reveals the refined and the rare, the stories, people and items that make up the luxury industry. I'm Tom Chamberlain. And today we should be going back to 1966 and the story of the world's most famous combustible item, Kehiba. I'm joined today by the great Nick Faux, who is recently returned from operational juicing, because you are in the process of writing the book of Kehiba. I am writing a book about Kehiba and Trinidad, yes. Fantastic. So, well, there's so much to dig into, people wouldn't expect this. Yes, when you said 1966, but it really began in 1963. Great, because I'm actually going to ask you to go a bit further back. Let's establish for the listener viewer, whichever medium they're suggesting this content on. Let's give them the context of what happened at the revolution to the Cuban cigar industry, because what we saw ultimately were thousands of brands being brought back into what is it, what, 25? 25%. Yes. So, let's just discuss that. Castro basically nationalized it. Well, I mean, effectively nationalized it. I mean, there was terms for it. But that's why you got that growth of tobacco being cultivated in Nicaragua, in Mexico, in the Canary Islands, because all these people left with Cuban seed in their pockets and planted it elsewhere, the Dominican Republic being most famous. So, that is really how this, what they call new world cigars, got started. It's great outflux if that's not what that's a terrible, terrible neologism, out this outflux of talent, this brain drain, if you like, of cigars. Yeah. The first thing that actually happened was in the cigar industry, post-revolution really was Cajiba. Castro had a bodyguard called Chico, in much longer name than that, but I can't remember it. And then he, his friend was Ed Wile Rivera, who was rolling at the Polar and Yaga factory, I think I want to say, but it may be my wrong. Anyway, he was doing that. And he made him these long things cigars with a pigtail. And he, they were very elegant, very, very aromatic. He was quite a lot of seco in there. And they caught the attention of Castro, who was then given a cigar by Chico. Said these were so good. And then Eduardo was, from then on, his personal cigar producer. You were saying the story that you've written before, that there were, Castro was basically an asold's mobile. Oh, it's not big. She was smoking in it. And he was like, "We need to take me to Eduardo Rivera." I mean, I've sort of elaborated in Belich the tail on many occasions. Because you were saying that the first thing that happened in Post-Rovolution was Cahibas. Because Bransite Montecristo, Partigas, these were all Bransite, were established prior to the revolution and remained. I mean, I don't know what happened directly after the revolution. They remain in Cuba. There are two sides of the industry. Now, there's the marketing side, there's just a ban on SSA, they have the brands and marketing in the biggest sense of the word. So they have the brands and all that. And then there's the agricultural side, which is Cuba de Beco, which is, or Tabacuba, rather. Tabacuba, yeah. Which is all the preparation of the lethal. I don't actually know which point one stops and the other begins. Yeah, that's fine. It's just, it's just, it's from Brans, which is, because so many people see these. And they expect them to come from the same place. Yes. And they don't. And you've mentioned Seco already. And we'll go into his actual, all that kind of thing means as this episode goes along, because we want people to leave sort of experts on, on people's, experts, experts. But then we're talking the wrong people then. The, yeah, well, quite. The thin, aromatic cigar was the, well, can't be known as the alligator number one. It will become the alligator number one, but you're running ahead with yourself there. So, so, but why is, or the last errors? Why is it called the alligator number one? Tell me about alligator. Well, to tell you about a little bit, I must go a bit further back. Right. Between 1963 and '66, he was still making these cigars, but he made them in different houses. He was moved around because there was actually a threat to, I think they were eight attempts using a cigar to kill him. Castray. Yeah. And so, is that why he wanted a kind of good, but also private role for his own? Well, I think, I think, yes, I mean, I don't know who said, you know, you could be killed by, I'm exploding cigar or a poisonous cigar or whatever. But, yeah, I mean, obviously it was security. And they, and when they, this is quite interesting, Cecilia Sanchez, who was sort of the flower of the revolution we call her, she was one of his assistant castress assistants, she wanted to do something for women so that they could have a job, rather than either be a housewife or, or whatever. So, she set up this factory with only women, and there were only the female relatives of the, of the close circle of bodyguards and so on, so that it could be relied upon to be, you know, truly with the revolution and all that. So, they started making these cigars, and there were about a million of them stacked up, which is more than even for Delkert's smoke. So, they decided they had to start selling. So, but I think Cecilia Sanchez, you know, we, we shall call them, Goheva. Yeah. I mean, she, she came up with a name, and it is, it is pretty on message for a revolution, because it takes you back to a pre-colonial time, and it, it sort of means the same in every language. Yes. Like we would talk about with Ray Lens. Yeah, but it does, you know, Goheva. Yeah. You know what people are talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But what is, what is fascinating about that is that, the El Lagito, which they moved into, was a former treacle magnate mentioned. It looks a bit like a, sort of, large wedding cake. It's a wedding cake, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's big. It's gated, it's, it's still regarded as the kind of, the sort of fort knocks of cigars. Yeah, rather, you don't, I mean, because you don't have, as you're doing downtown, you have people hanging around street corners near the, near the cigar factory, saying, "It's one of our cheap cigars." Yeah, what quite. I know the roller at the factory. And yeah, I know he's my brother and he's, and he sort of gets something that's made of, sort of, creates social media. But not really. Don't listen to the people on the street. No, don't, my first advice, you don't listen to the people on the street. And second, don't listen to, I mean, I don't know, it was, it was, it was when I first bought my first box on the street. Yes. The man offered to throw in a girl as a, as a, as a, as a sort of gift with purchase. Of course. Which I thought was a bit, you know, so I said, I mean, it had to put me off actually going on the street. I mean, cigars were pretty terrible as well, actually. Yeah. So, I'm not saying. Rule number one, only buy through the official channels. Correct. That's what we need to say. Yeah, we need to say. Yeah, we need to practical advice to the, to the list of the fairy tales. But anyway, anyway, back to the, El Luguito, the House of Mysteries. It was all female till, I think the 70s, actually. Okay. And by this time, Kahiba had been fully established as a brand. Yes. With regards to the Lanzarro's and stuff. This was a brand intended to be the kind of flagship brand for Kuba. And it's cigars, but which apart from rum and sort of sugar is, is this, Copper. I think there's one other, another expert. I'm talking about, talking about doing my good things. Yeah. But it is, it is what makes Kuba famous. Yeah. An interesting point, read the number one, at least this is how it's always been explained to me. It's that ultimately, it's actually, despite it being thin, it's quite a hard cigar to roll. It's impossible, I'm not impossible, but it's hard. Yes, it requires the best role. Yes. So presumably if the kind of flagship cigar for this new brand was a really hardwood to roll, it was always going to be established as this amazing sort of head boy of the Cuban cigar. It's, I mean, it's, it's also got the third fermentation, which was introduced very early on. I mean, I think we'll see. Let's explain that just to just take a little deeper into that, because that's really important, is that, to tobacco when it, when it comes out, they always go through two stages of fermentation. Yeah. And what happened to the tobacco, it comes off, it comes off the plant green and winds up in the factory, blurred brown. Yeah. So it cures and then it, and then they put it in big piles and it ferments. And they get, they got to keep the temperature of the certain degree. I was 50 or something. And fermentation is incredibly important. And so, it's incredibly, the flavour, profile of a cigar is all down to the oils fermenting within the leaf. But also, if you think about it, if you just stuck one of these things together, stuck green leaves together and set it apart and it tastes fucking awful. Yeah, they probably wouldn't even burn. No. So, and I've seen them in the middle of you, so these barrels that they basically just, just par them into and. For the third fermentation. So, yes, exactly. So, what, so what do you think that third fermentation does that means it's different to everything else? They say, and I, they say, they say, first of all, it loads nicotine content again. And also, it makes it smoother. Yes, okay. You've got a difference between old cigars and cigars made with old materials, which will come on to later. But these barrels are what makes Cajiba-Cajiba? Yes. Do you remember the first Cajiba you have smacked? I remember the first time I heard of it. And I just love the graphic design of it, actually, because they started off with a sort of. Very 70s type packaging with a colonial door. The top, they used to. Oh, yeah, okay. And then they went, then they went for these white boxes with tobacco leaf with the native Cuban head on it. Yeah. Profile. And the band, as you see, it's just so unlike the other. I mean, all the other factory bands are elaborate sort of, or Nate. illustrative. Yes. I mean, you're not quite sort of got them by a tapestry squeezed onto a sort of cigar label, but almost in some cases. Motives. And this is just simply says what it is. And it's, it was immediately recognizable. I mean, you can spot it at the distance across the room, you know? Yes. And so the other thing we, which is obviously a big part of it, is that cigars are an agricultural product. And they are given for one of the betterfaces first dibs on which feels they, they want to harvest for, for Kehe, but where did that come in? And why, why do you think that's an interesting? Well, I mean, they, I asked them which the best ones were, consider we, we sorted from the premiere, the premiere of Vegas in the, in the, in the Piano Del Rio and all this. And I said, well, which, which, which ones are then? And so we can't tell you. And I said, kept on asking them in a different way. And they'd still wouldn't tell me. So it is, it is less equal, but I mean, they, they say, and I have no reason to doubt them, that it is the best, it's the pick of, it's the pick of what there is. You mentioned Piano Del Rio, for Walter Bacho and Piano Del Rio, you know, these are names that people might not understand and know. So can we just kind of, or do or domain reminicon, tell you that? It's on the west side of, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a bit close to the Gulf of America where we now encourage to call it. You formally know it's the Gulf of Mexico. And it's about, given Cuban roads, a couple of, a couple of a stri-bar, a bit of a banner. Yeah. Two or three hours. Very beautiful. Very beautiful. Yeah, they sort of, interesting sort of, yes, mounds are going to stick up like that. It looks almost like monument valley or something. Yeah, exactly, except without, without, without, with more green. The slightly greener, exactly. Yeah. And there's a lot of tobacco fields in Cuba, but this is considered the best. Yes. I mean, this is, this is the sort of heart of where the good stuff is, because the good stuff's come from. Yes. And annoyingly also where hurricanes and ups and downs are. Yes. It's, it's, it's the curing barns that do the real problem. Yeah. It's not so much the plants, the curing barns, if they're, if they're knocked down, they're not the most solid structures and they're not, not, not, not, you can build them quite quickly, but if you, if you, if you suddenly lose a hundred curing barns, it's a hard stop, as you say. And we'll come into the, why that affects the Cubans to go industry later on when we talk about the Bihique and shortages. But let's just give the basis on what a cigar is and how Cahoe Berk kind of made themselves a unique brown within that. So the cigars, you mentioned the second leaf earlier, Cubans cigars made up of three leaves. You have the velado, the second, the hera, the lehara, you'll play three different functions, which are combustibility, aroma and strength in that order. And within those three leaves, you have master blenders who create the leneas that each brand sort of send out. Yeah, I mean, the vettolas are, are the blend is determined by a master blender who will then adjust it for the cigar size. Interesting. Okay. And Cahoe Berk will go through its extra fermentation, but it will also get the, pick of the croc. Does that mean that just by extension, quality control, all these sorts of things are better at the, at the far end of the production process? They would argue not. I would argue that the Cuban, Cuban quality is unfortunately not entirely consistent. Yeah. When it's great, it's great, but with a box, people, I mean, I don't know what people, what, what your experiences are, but there will often be one or maybe even two that are sort of unsmokable because they're rolled and if there's tightest treat runks or something like that. Yes. Yeah. And funnily enough, the smoking kind of cognizanty, like take great pride in being able to find the sort of twigs that are in the, I mean, I was sitting in front of the director of the Trinidad factory, pulling, I was smoking a Trinidad robusto tea, I think it was at the time. And I was pulling out just, just like a magician, so you know, end the street runks. What do we mean by twigs for those, what, it's a blast, is that it hadn't been de-stemmed properly? Yes, exactly. So it leaves a strip off the stems because the stems get very hard before they are then rolled into cigars. And if they don't strip it properly, you have this very hard stem inside the cigar, which means they're actually smoking it is very difficult. So the drawer is not very good. Yes. And there is something very satisfying about removing it and suddenly the drawer working. Oh, yeah, but I mean, but ultimately, but when I look back on it from my deathbed, I'll, I'll calculate how many hours I spent. Is it tundling into Cuban cigars? But also you, with, but when they're great, that when, I mean, there's nothing to beat them. I mean, on a good day, they leave everything standing genuinely. You know, when you have a cookie, but it kind of reminds you that actually there is a reason why this is the, could it consider the kind of premier brand of Cuban cigars? It is premier brand of cigars around the world, I would say. It's too much and what's them called it aside, you know? It's me. Gercal. Gercal. Gercal. Gercal. There's one called the Hooligan, I think, in America. He's there. And there's one also, which is like a "Tobler" and it's three-sided. Three-sided? Yeah. No way. I believe so, I believe so. I mean, I can't, I know it. I've written about it. I saw it, but I can't believe myself. It's a duty. I just think, I just think, why? That's a question nobody would ever want to ask. So, within the family of Kehiba, the various releases that come out over the years that are particularly special. Well, first of all, it was a diplomatic gift. So, for many, many years, Kehiba was a diplomatic gift. So, in the same way, the same vein as Trinidad. Yes, but it was a diplomatic gift. And I think it was launched in Europe in 1982, in the Ritz in Madrid. And that was when they launched the Kehiba. Okay. And announced it to the world as a. Yes. And obviously being in Spain, because, you know, it's been. Well, it's strong ties. Yes, strong ties. And at the same time, David off was still making in Cuba before it went to Italy. Yeah, because it was in the 90s, early 90s. In the 90s, they switched. Yeah, they switched. And they were made at the El Laguito factory. Yes, they were. And they. There were some amazing cigars that came out of that. And a lot of slim ringgages, too. Yes. Ringgage being, by the way, everyone's. The. the. the base of the size of the cigar. Yeah. Every ringgage is one-sixty-fourth of an inch. Yes. So, you can calculate yourself, I mean. Yeah. If you have a 64 ringgage cigar, it's an entwined. It is. And it is ludicrous. So, let's me have one talk about siglo. Yeah. Because that's the one. If you go into any cigar shop now, you may know. You'll find all of them, especially the six. But ultimately, that's. That's the one you're probably going to like the most. Yeah, I mean, what's interesting is that. For when I. when I said it came on, the cigars were getting a little fatter. So, the. Heba Robusto was the. You got. You got the. Which is a sort of short, fatish, stubby-ish thing. It's a. 50 ringgage. I forget that if. Five ringgage, I was like, "I'm. Someone's going to curate me terribly wrong." But it's not a long thing. And you can probably. You can probably polish it off in 45 minutes, basically. Yeah. And that was. You can pick. Pick more tobacco, and it's also actually cooler to smoke. And the. the very thin ones, you have to be actually. I'd be quite good at smoking cigars. Otherwise, you get a hot spot in the middle of your tongue or something like that. Yes. Which is not. It's more targeted when they're. Because the aperture is. Yeah, yeah, it's like. It's like. It's more like a hose versus a throwing a bucket. Yeah, exactly. And it's a turtual size, basically. Which is, again, I mean. It's a. it's a. it's a. It's a fairly. You have to be not an experienced mountaineer. It's not Everest, exactly. But it's probably sort of the. The Iger or something like that. Ben Nevis. Yeah, Ben Nevis. I mean, whereas the sort of Ciglo I is. Which we get onto is this sort of like a gentle strobe up. The Ciglo I is nice and straightforward. Yeah. And then. And then if you want to slightly lighter blend. And then I don't think. I mean, I don't think the Cahiba. The classic range is that heavy. If you want. I mean, it's. I think it's medium to heavy. And if you want a sort of less aggressive version. That still has plenty of flavor and aroma. The Ciglo series, which is based upon the century. Since the discovery of Cuba by us. What an arrogant way we call the discovery of the new world. In 1492 or whatever it was. These were named after those centuries. So here's a Ciglo I, Ciglo II. Ciglo II, Ciglo IV, Ciglo V. I can remember them all. Yeah. And then Ciglo VI, as well, came later in 2002. I think. Anyway, these. Okay, I remember when these came out. And they were perfect. My favorite was the Ciglo IV. And I think these were all. David off. Vittolas. That had been switched over. And I think that one was the 5,000. I can't be sure, but I think it was. In 2002, I believe it was. The introduced the Ciglo VI. Yes. Which is. For me, it was a very, very important cigar in so many ways. It's my favorite off the shelf of Anna if you can find them. I agree. And if you can afford them, which is another thing that I'm going to do later. And it is. At its best, it is a fantastic. It's the kind of most representative. It's what all cigars should be like. Yes. Except when they're that one, which is. But it also. It kind of hits the. That sort of alcohol archetype of a Stogi. And so, for people who kind of want to have a cigar and feel like. They're kind of joining in that sort of merry band of. Between the teeth smoke. It's perfectly sour. There's enough to keep you going for quite a while. But also, if you are interested in what a really nice tasting, well-blended cigar taste like the Cigar VI is perfect. It is. It's a kick itself. 52 ringgages, slightly bigger than your average. But it was the first sort of super-ringage in a Cuban, I think. And it just was a revelation. And it packed so much flavor in there because of obviously the biggest cigar, so you can have a much more complex blend. Yeah. And it just took over the world really that's a go. If you put together all the kind of supposed elitist bits of Cuban tobacco. So you've got the aged tobacco, you've got the Cahiba brand, you've got an anniversary, you've got a different size. And you've got this five-year-old. year old tobacco. It's a sort of super dupe. It's like having a kind of, there was a racing car that used to have both turbo and superchargers. So, you know, it's putting everything on it. And I mean, so those should really be the best. I happen to think that an aged cigar is better than an aged cigar made with aged tobacco. Although, of course, there are exceptions to that rule, likely the reserve part of the series D number four. Can you do both? Can you get the cigar? Of course, you can. Of course, you can. Yeah, but then you could do that. No, that's a very interesting suggestion, but it would take a fucking lifetime, you know. Okay. You've had cigars at the 10, 15, 20 years old. I have a box of Montieres from 1996. Which is fantastic. It's one of the great experiences. Yeah, I mean, you know, that is something really, it's great when you come across something like that because it's unique, you know, yeah, for sure. What happens with the aging, aging is very difficult. I mean, it's a real science and nobody's, I have yet to meet somebody who can actually explain it to me properly. How, how you expect them to go, but it's not a parabolic curve. It's more of a sort of oscillation. So when you get in and out, it'll get in and out of one of the earliest things you ever taught me about cigar smoking. Is that right? Yeah, it's not like wine, where it just sort of kind of goes up or doesn't go up to it. But other wine is linear, whereas this is this. It goes up and down. It goes up and down. It's also about the half-life of the leaves. So for example, lecherro, you'd have thought like a strong cigar would be aged well and a week's a guy would just disappear. Actually, what happens is because they've got lecherro, lecherro actually, not decays, but sort of loses its power more rapidly than say something like seco, which is, which is, which gives a romeran flavor. Yeah. So because it's got more oils than this. I don't know why. I mean, listen, Tom, I mean, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just write the book on the stuff. I just write the book on the stuff. I don't, I don't bother myself with things like that. But anyway, this leaf, this leaf, which is, which is the photo lecher. So, you know, I have had brilliantly aged punch or H upman even, and I've had pretty, me, and pretty mild actually, Bolivar, which is because, and Bolivar is a head-rippingly strong brand. And then you've got, put it away for 20, 20 years, and it's so become really quite docile. Yeah. Because of all the, the hero losing its, losing its kick. Yeah. Let's get back to, Cohiba. Yeah. So, okay. So we sort of touch on Grammyserv. We can, we can go further into that another time. But with regards to Cohiba, the other thing that was really so, she was Cohiba. Yeah. It was first just a, a, a limited edition Cohiba issue for a, I think it was for an anniversary. It was sort of an, I think it was the, was it with a I'm right and say 40th anniversary or something, I don't know. Yes, yes, yes, I think it was. And I think it was, I think it was. It was rolled by one lady, Norma. And she signed all the in-a part of the Bans. So it was a very special release. The Bihique that we know as a standard production range started in 2010 I think. Yeah. So it's 2010 that this came out, the Bihique or BHK, just like you have the main remedy content, short into DRC. Yeah. The Bihique, short into BHK in 52, 54 and 56 ringgagers. So from kind of fat to sort of obese in terms of, in terms of, in terms of, in terms of, but they're absolutely delicious. The guards, I mean, they are. And that's because of this leaf called the Medio Tiempo, which was again another thing that was used in the countryside. And it sort of fell into a bayon. I mean, it's basically the top leaves of the tree. You get the top leaves, you get more exposure to the sun. And it's, they're more intense. There's much more, what's that thing that happened with plants, you know, photosynthesis. The photosynthesis, you got it, bingo. There's a lot of photosynthesis going on. Don't ask for too many signs, especially, exactly. And you get the very, very dark little leaves. And you don't get them every year. And they just, they just either, either they add something to it, or they suggest to the mind that they add something to it. But they are, if you're offered a Bihique, ever, take it. Yes. It's a fantastic thing. Yeah. And again, is now sort of prohibitively expensive. Yes, but it's become like a brand within a brand, you know? Yes, for sure. And you've spent a lot of cigars over the years. You understand that time, often, when you give a cigar time in its humidor, you allow it to kind of get rid of it. I get people called what would tanons in wines, for example, sort of as a decadent. Yes, I mean, it sort of goes with that. But my question is obviously is, is that do you think that there's a sort of secret there with regards to understanding how a cigar will change over six months' time after they come up with the initial blend or at least years, actually, even sometimes, because-- I think years is probably more-- Cuba can be slow. Yeah. I mean, I think years is probably more appropriate. I mean, often, but this export will be held up by a shortage of boxes. Yeah. I hope it's really rapid by a shortage of string. I mean, you've seen that happen. Have a new first-hand US Cuban rappers, obviously, are growing separately for months back. And they're growing with this sort of-- It's like a Muslim-- But a Muslim over the top. So you get these very big leaves. But they are not sort of scorched at all. So they're-- Yeah, so they should be beautiful. And they have its under 10-star quality. So they can wrap around, basically, without breaking. But you said that you witnessed it once when you were there and because of a shortage of string, and then that they couldn't put the muzzan up. Yeah, they couldn't. And they couldn't do-- I mean, it was crazy. And because of the difficult life that they're having, Cuba, so many things that we regard as completely trivial. For them, is a sort of quest. Yes. And the treasured item-- Yes. You borrow a saber as a treasured treasured item. Yes, very much so. When Freddie came out to Cuba, my son, he said, my mother said, do you have any toothpaste? Oh, we get that hotel. In the end, you had to go to us in black market shop and pay 20 bucks for a person with two toothpaste. Well, one of them making find out the hardware. But before we go on to costs, talk about the whole idea of shortages and how that's an issue. Because we could go back to the '80s and talk about blue mold. And blue molds, of course, white-- there was a blue mold that white cell was in 90%-- 90%? It's always 90%. Yes, always 90% of-- But there is a number of three or four of me. Using the edge of a barrier. 90% 90%. Yes. So blue mold was basically a disease in the least. Some people will tell you out there that it was a CIA thing. Yes, to kind of bring Cuba furlough to his knees and stuff. Instead of which, the research institute just devised a disease resistance strain. The resistance strain of tobacco, which meant that they sort of lived to fight another day. Yes. But again, when 90% of the supply goes away, obviously shortages therefore demand-- demand will remain, but supply of shores and therefore prices shoot up. So is it your experience over the time of being spoken and also writing about cigars? Is that they have been these sort of panic periods? Often. I mean, I remember when double coroners were the thing to smoke. And you couldn't get them for love nor money. So we were going through Paris duty free with Edward, I think. It was still before they had the train. And we saw these-- in duty free, we saw these two cabinets of 50. And it was literally like we'd sort of got the Holy Grail. There's a dashed over and sort of flung ourselves at these boxes. And Edward being the great Eddie. Edward's Hark. Edward's Hark in here. Of David. David of St. James is a fantastic man. And now, of course, it's totally out of fashion. But in the time, it was fashionable. And you couldn't get anything. So that was something that you were really focused on getting and couldn't get. Because you need quite large leaves and all that other wrapper. There was also the special period when you couldn't get anything. This was after it stopped being a client state of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union ceased to exist. And then now, we had the hurricanes which came through. And inopportunally, sort of basically-- I mean, decimated only means taking one in every 10 out. It's more than decimated. It sort of carved a really nasty way through it. But what they did was they shut the prices right up on some of the brands, including, of course, Gehiva, which-- Then it used to be in different countries. You could-- there was a massive arbitrage between the ones in Spain and the ones in London. Yeah, yeah. Now, everything's at the same price, which is super expensive. Which is going to Hong Kong, right? It was a Hong Kong race. Because Hong Kong was-- if you wanted to go by cigars in Hong Kong, that would be-- If you wanted to spend the most money. Yeah, that would be the best money. So I mean, what used to be-- Let's say, I don't know, 30 pounds a gar. I mean, even the Behiki when it started was sort of like 35 pounds for a 52 or something. And now that cigar is probably-- probably find it someone selling it for 400, 500? Yeah. Because there's so many factors that can play a part in-- They have the embargo, which basically means that they've got another-- they're trying to do all this with their hand tied by hand, they're back in one of the legs in a manicle. Yes. And then on top of that, therefore, with supply issues, you have price hikes. And so obviously, the Kehiba reposts the premise is a really good example of this. Rather-- So you're holding a baby, too. Yes, I mean, it is an enormous thing. Are you going to be holding it with that sort of reverence and care that you do a child? I think it's any more. Well, I think-- Probably because more than a child. I was going to say, if somebody had the price tag on this was they'd understand, ultimately, these were originally on the shelves at 40 pounds. Yes. And now you cannot pick them up. for less than 700 pounds. How many boxes do you have of those? I don't think my insurance people want to know. No, I think. It is such a good to go. I have one in front of the Delhi. It is such a good to tell you the other day. Did you? Yes, I mean, I just, I'm wondering, I'm wondering, I'm wondering, because if you build up a special occasion, special occasion, and then it's never going to be the right time. It's never, you'd always, there was always the next special occasion. Yeah, and I thought, fuck it. I mean, I might as well just see it. And it's, it tasted absolutely one. It's delicious. It tasted absolutely nine, ten, ten, eleven years on. Was it at 2040? 2014. Yeah, so it's 11 years on. It's absolutely outstanding. Yeah. And I thought it was all over the place, flavor wise to start with. But that is why, okay. So this is why you could easily pick them up from 40 pounds of stick for at least the first year. Yes. And that's the interesting thing about Cuban cigars is that you can almost guarantee that a limited edition cigar will double in price at some points in its life due to the fact that people smoke them and then they become furious. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think you can probably say that. Whereas with this, was it what I found really interesting was that ultimately people didn't really think much of it when it first came out. And so it's so held in the way that the talisman didn't. The talisman talisman, it flew. It's as a price, like it was so fast because people going in and buying sort of ten, twenty boxes at a time because they were like, this is just the greatest thing that. And they were not expensive. Ten, it boxed ten for three hundred and something. Correct. I mean, they were thirty, thirty five quarters. Yeah, which I mean, it's still quite a lot of money for a single single go tobacco product. Yes, but at the same time, if you look at what they've now regularly think, I mean, and it was not a scarce cigar. I guess makes one thing about cigars becoming a, you know, or trying to sort of elevate themselves into being a bona fide luxury item. Well, I think it is a luxury item. I mean, it's a, it's a, I mean, I would say one definition of luxury is an agricultural product to which human intervention adds value. So gold is a naturally occurring product, not that in culture, but you know what I mean. But when it is, when it is, when it is handled by people who have anglie from their peels, it becomes worth four or five times what it does in its, not in its natural raw state. Do you have, but there must be a distinction though between these and cigarettes. Yes, because I mean, cigarettes cigarettes are, are basically a means of getting nicotine into the system. Yeah, that is fine. I mean, but the, but the, the, it's sort of, I mean, they, they dry it so they pay less due to it with weight. And then they re re re flatten it with something, I mean, something something a polling sounding. I don't know, something's a benzene tree, but they put them in a room and then they sort of plump them up with some sort of a polling. And then I mean, you know, I mean, nothing wrong with it, but I mean, I don't think that each of their own, I mean, exactly. I mean, you'll be doing, we'll be doing vapes on the program next. Yeah, what? Yeah. It's a luxury vaping. Yes. No, that I mean, I think that's what's so unfair is that it's, it's, it's a bit like saying buck fast tonic wine, which you know, it's very fun, very popular with the street drinker. Yeah. Or, or Karlsburg special brew, which is again a nice intoxicant of a sort of relative forward, but accessible one is the same thing as say a bottle of domain reminiconty or shadow, shadow lab, lapin or whatever. Obril. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's not, it's not like for like. No, no. I mean, it's not, it's not, it's not, I mean, you know, and also, it is, it is, it is, it is, it is a, it is a cultural product. It is, it is, it is more than just a luxury thing or a bottle of wine or whatever. It is, it is actually integral to the character of the country. Yes. In a way that wine is in France. Yeah. And do you think that there's an issue with the fact that things like quality control has still not quite there for, for terms of the consumer that you're there? I mean, I think if you're a consumer, you have to have, you have to, if you're paying that much money for something that you're going to be basically downing in, in not in one, but you know what I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's what, yeah. I mean, you don't even want it to go out when you're making it because even re-lighting it is, is, is, it's deliterate of the flavor. You, you, it's half done already. So it's, so I mean, really, you're, you're having one shot at this thing and you're spending 700 quid on it. Yeah. You want it to be absolutely perfect. I think you're, you were right to expect that. Yes. I'm oddly enough, again, with this sort of wonderful kind of Kafka like logic. It's a, there's a beautiful cigar, um, the koaba. Yes. The koaba. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a very interesting shape cigar. It's, it's sort of like a, it's like a funnel with a sort of, but the double-ended torpedo. So it's not even like a, it's, it's, it's a very difficult cigar to make. And of course, it's one of the most affordable ones to get. Yeah, the Salamanas and things like that. Salamanas and the little one, the Divinos, I think, the, the little one is fantastic. And I mean, that, that's a cigar that is, nobody knows about it really. Wrong, totally unfashionable size, weird shape. And yet it would take, it would take somebody of considerable skill to make it. Yes. So this is what I like about Cuba so much is that they have these irrational things that are seen as completely normal. It's one of the reasons why San Cristobal is one of your favorite brands, because ultimately everyone forgot about it for years. Nobody smoked them. San Cristobal is a fantastic cigar. The desegars that nobody had smoked. I know, I got a lot of, I'm a lot of jazz of that still. I mean, brilliant. The, the, the, the, the fantastic cigars. But why do you keep going back to Cuba? First of all, because I'm a snob. Yeah. Secondly, it's, it's what they do best. It's their shop window. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, and it's also what makes it is, I mean, it's, there's also the supreme irony that it is socialist country making a one of the most sort of obvious luxury and status-conferring product. Yes. You know, it's, it's recognizable. It's recognizable. It's, it's about as recognizable as Ferrari, Dior, Chanel, M.S. It's, it's, I would say one of the most recognizable luxury brands in the world. Yeah. And it is a brand. It is a luxury brand. It is a brand. And that sort of happened almost by accident. I mean, they set out because they set out to make it an example of what the revolution could, the, the triumph of the revolution to bring about. Yeah. Was this. And, and it was, it was, it began as Celia Sanchez's sort of almost a social, social working thing, you know, to get, to get women working and next thing. And then it became, and the irony, obviously, it became such a sort of, you know, look at me thing. Bozwa. Bozwa. Well, I mean, I'm awful Bozwa, Bozwa. Yeah, we like that. Bozwa. We're fine with Bozwa, but the, but it's, it's, it's sort of counterintuitive. Well, no, I mean, not for them. Not for them because they, they can, it's fine. I mean, it's, I mean, because it's them in a nice, a huge earner since the prices have been put up. It's a massive earner for the country. I mean, it always was a big earner. But I think big major shares have been bought by private investors. Yeah. And they are applying a certain business rigor to it. Yes. And creating a brand new asset class within the, within the luxury market because you have people who are buying cigars without the intention of making them. Yeah, they, they keep them as collectors or they trade. Yes. And it's, it's, it's like, I mean, we've had no difference to wine or whiskey. Whiskey, whiskey seems to me. I don't understand the whiskey one at all. I mean, because people pay immense sums for immense sums. I mean, it makes, it makes buying one of these look like sort of, you know, the point coin you give to a beggar. You probably give a beggar a box of these or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I have to handle these. Yeah, yeah. And then, and then these whiskeys are just insane. And of course, brown spirits are sort of going lower and lower in sales, aren't they? Yeah. I mean, I think you made the joke or I made the joke that Richie Sunett would have been better off putting all the country's money into Kihei. And that was, that was me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was, it was about Sir Keir Starmer sort of hoping I was sort of giving a advice saying if he wants to get the country's finances back on running, he needs to put his money in. Five three bucks for cars, yeah. Yeah. Because he, and he's a Gordon Brown sold the girl that sort of rock bottom value. So we should release it. Yeah. Basically, they got space to pack puts a guard there now. Yes. Bank of England massively he the biggest humidor on the world. Exactly. I remember there was a big boom in cigars in the 1990s. Huge. You had Madonna smoking them. You had Cindy Crawford smoking them. J. Low and J. Low. Everybody was making them. Michael Jordan was a bit. Yeah. But men, women, it was a real celebrity thing to do. Do you think cigar fish and other players in the park? Yes. I mean, but I think also it's part symptom park calls. Yeah. For symptom and cause. Yeah. Source and anger, of course. Shratton anger, of course. Tom Selik. Tom Selik. He was a great smoker. Jack Nicholson. Great smoker. Yeah. He always looks terrific. He looked like the kind of person that ought to be smoking years ago. Yeah, but every picture of him, he's a very first genic guy and very charismatic man in front of the lens. But when he has a cigar, it adds something to him and weirdly enough. And I'm one of those people who actually, I feel like Churchill is a terrible ambassador for cigar spurking. But he didn't, he didn't convey a lot of cool. No. But I think it worked the other way around. The cigar made Churchill rather than Churchill making the cigar. It's like Fidel and the cigar. Yeah. You expect it. It's part of the sort of get up with the revolutionary cap and heavy boots in the cigar. Yeah. And it's like, why is it Churchill? It's a humbug and it's the kind of, it's what a curvy would call a stroller. And a cigar, you know. We call it the black lounge suit. Yes. I mean, it's what, it's stripy trousers. It's the T itself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what, the cigar is an integral part of that, of their public persona. Yes. And another person who made cigars look really interesting and cool and sophisticated was Roger Moore. He was brilliant Roger Moore. I went to the Piazza exhibition in Paris last year and they had his cigar cutter and his lighter. Oh, very good. Yeah. I mean, the Roger Moore's cigar cutter would be a really cool thing to have. I remember I went to Simon Couch Durian's place. I'm a Pullman gallery. Yes, yes. I remember standing there and there was a chap who's about my height. And I, which I know because it's unusual. And he was pointing at something at the bottom shelf and the guy goes, "Yeah, may I help you sir?" he goes, "I'm interested in buying this thing here. I really like to have a look." And he goes, "Where are you from, sir?" And he goes, "I'm from Germany." And he goes, "Fergus, can I just point out that these are Herman Goering's cigar glasses?" (laughing) "Oh God, and the guy goes. " It's not a problem. (laughing) Okay, he was even been into space. Is it? Yeah, Major General Hernandez. Have you heard of Major General Hernandez? No, I haven't heard of Major General Hernandez. Tell me about this. It's a Brigadier, General. Sorry, the Brigadier. The Brigadier. The Brigadier, General. He went into space with a Cohiba. So I mean, it's, I mean, I don't, I don't know. What do you, what? Who, who, who? I wasn't in the rehearsal. Oh, no, you went to, I'm probably the Russian who went after the space station. I mean, I didn't, I wasn't there. I didn't have any, I've only read about in books. I've only read about in books. I would love to see him floating around there. So he's taking, so Cohiba's been taking the space? Yes, apparently. I mean, you know, I wonder how it smokes up in space. I doesn't smoke very well at high altitude. Because you know this, because you make it. I've tried smoking at the top of the hand and come in whatever that sort of Austrian resort is called. At what stages? It's, it's the air is too cold. All right. And it just, it just, it tastes so bitter. That's why it's making them in Cuba is so good, because you're at ground level, and it's the air is, the air is moist, so there's no difference in temperature. Hey, you've got something coming in, something very hot. That's very cold. Yes, okay. So you're at the, but aren't at sea level. It's sort of, especially in Cuba. It's almost perfect equanimity. So there's no difference in temperatures. Don't get that kind of harsh burn. Got it. It's a shame because I thought I'm going to have a nice to go. Now what's the kids ski down this very steep hill? This is like a sort of, and then I just sort of, it's just a bitter twigs. I mean, that was a twig, but it's horrible. It was like sort of, yeah, I mean, I just smoked it because we started something like that. You have to finish it, but God, it wasn't. It wasn't a pleasant experience. Casher gave up, so I can't do any of these. He gave up smoking in, yeah, quite a long time. Because the WHO gave him an award or something, and he was like, oh, he could accept it whilst smoking as to go. Yeah. And you could imagine that he went up kind of. Yes, thank you. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then he said, which is such a shame you had to give up, you know, because it's, you want them, do you want them to be sort of smoky? It's what they should do. It's like Greek ship owners. I have to have big glasses, you know? Yeah, yes. But it feels like there's somewhere that's going to be a sort of unsmoked casherous stash. Well, the box is signed by casher, of course, go for a fortune. Total fortune. Yes. And I mean, they're expensive when they were bought. But I mean, now they, I mean, God, they, I don't know, what people, because it's because it's become a more of a collector's market. Yeah. It, you know, a box signed by a boxer. I mean, a box, the best would be a box of, you buy it at the auction at the festival, and it would be a box of unusual size cohebers in a hundred of those, in a human or signed by a castro. Yeah. I mean, that would be your kind of dream thing. Yeah. But they do have a shelf life. I mean, like, if you got one that was, you know, early, early days of coheber, they may not taste particularly good. Well, I don't know. I mean, but that's the, that's a lot of you. When you be mad to smoke them, that would destroy the values, like, you know, you know, you know, then you'd have, then you'd be a blight for smoke. But there's curious, see, there comes a bit to it. But we know what it, we know what it did to the cat. I remain Tom Chamberlain, and this has been the luxury dispatch. 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