Cognitive Liberty, The War on Drugs, & Personal Freedom

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Psychedelics today for the 2017 July 4 edition. Probably going to launch it today on July 3, but for all intents and purposes, July 4. Really hope you enjoy it. Today on the show, it's just Kyle and I, and we wanted to get into a couple things related to cognitive liberty and a class we're launching, probably a few other things going on as well. But yeah, first and foremost, we do have a class that will be on sale for 10% off for as soon as we launch this through July 4 tomorrow, and definitely take advantage of that. And the class is called Navigating Psychedelics. What's the subtitle, Kyle? Lessons on Psychedelics. Self-care and integration. Yeah. So it's going to have a whole bunch of lecture from us and some kind of interactive online components, a private Facebook group, and we're going to have 10 experts with kind of masterclasses on their specific subject area. Could be ayahuasca or integration or how to party safer, stuff like that. So kind of a well-rounded approach to psychedelics. So it's not just, you know, what does it look like? To be safe going to Peru. It's more than that because psychedelics are more pervasive than just out in Peru. Kyle, anything you want to add about the class? No, I think you covered it. Yeah, we'll go over some harm reduction. And then hopefully, I mean, I think the whole point of the class is to maximize safety and reduce any risks. I mean, you know, people are consuming psychedelic material. It's getting out in the mainstream. And, you know, we just want to be that outlet for some sort of harm reduction and safety and education. You know, it's not really to promote the use, but if you are going to do it, we think that, you know, it's good to have some education around it. So you don't end up in the hospital or something like that. You know, you call the police. And I just saw this article about some kids in Tennessee calling the police because they were lost on mushrooms. And, you know, you don't want that to happen if you decide to engage in a process of self-discovery. That's a good way of putting it. And yeah, even if you're just like exploring your personal relationship to drugs and running around the woods or something, because that's what people told you is the best place to do it. Maybe it's not the best first place to do it, especially on a full dose. And, you know, there's all sorts of these lessons that we've picked up over the years, reading and being part of this culture. And we really want to make sure you're equipped to make better decisions for you and your friends. Probably, we are definitely going to go over drug testing, how to use a test kit, probably some stuff about, say, you bought some drugs in a parking lot and, you know, you want to use them right away. But maybe you shouldn't. Maybe you should just tough it out and drink a couple beers instead of using an unknown substance from a parking lot. Wait till the next day when you can test or just save up the money for a test kit and be safe. We really, really want less people to have trouble with the law and with medical situations. And that's really it for us. And we want you to have better outcomes in general. Yeah, again, we're not really trying to promote drug use here. It's just that we know what's happening and we have to get ahead of it to make sure people have a safer, healthier time interacting with these substances that we know a lot less about than alcohol and pot. What else are people using? It's legal nicotine. Yeah, nicotine, pot, alcohol. Yeah, what's legal caffeine, nicotine and alcohol? Cacao. I mean, now the new crazes, cacao ceremonies. Yeah, you know all about that. Maybe we should actually even touch on that in the class. That might be interesting just because there is some interesting stuff around it and it seems to relate to psychedelic work a little bit. Yeah, it's some pretty powerful experiences with it when I would work with it in the past. I haven't been working with it lately just because the place that we got it from, I guess the post office in Guatemala shut down. So we haven't been able to get a new, you know, new source. I'm sure I could, you could really use any cacao, but the stuff that we were getting was pretty good. And like what kind of experiences is it like, you know, heart meditation? Is it like, yeah, so we, I mean, the concept, is that, yeah, it's good heart medicine. So it opens up the heart to work with some of that inner work. It also helps bring blood throughout the body. And so it's getting you energized and it's, you know, flowing blood to the heart opening up. It's very empathic feeling. So we would pair it up with breathwork and shamanic journeying, but people do all sorts of stuff. They have a static dances. So yeah, it's really, really helpful. Yeah. It's really individual and unique. I mean, people are doing different things. The way that I learned was from my buddy who went to Guatemala and study with this guy, Keith, who calls himself the chocolate shaman. And they would drink about like an ounce, ounce and a half, no, an ounce and a half to two ounces of raw cacao. And then, you know, I think you could go around and like, that was one like cup or something. Yeah. Yeah. So a ceremonial dose of cacao is around an ounce and a half, which is pretty hefty because it's also in like the raw form. It's really bitter and sludgy. You just mix it with water with, you know, a little bit of cayenne pepper and, you know, you shouldn't drink it too sweet because that bitter is also the medicine as well. And they would like wait for somebody to have a response and then they maybe go around and do Reiki or some sort of energy work. So, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different ways to go about doing it. I'm trying to do some quick math here. Yeah. So, an ounce is about twenty eight point three grams. I was like three and a half grams. That's not an ounce. All right. Got it. Got it. So, yeah, one to two. That's pretty intense. That's a lot of raw and and they blend it up, heat it and then drink it. Typically. Yeah. You don't boil the water. You kind of let it. Well, I mean, you boil the water, water and then you let it cool off. So, the idea is that you're not burning off all the alkaloids and antioxidants. It's in there. So, it's like kind of hot water, but not boiling hot water. And you just mix it in there and, you know, you can season it to however you like. That's really cool. I like that a lot. I might actually experiment with that in some of my breathwork workshops. Maybe I'll do like a small one with four or five people. Yeah, I would do maybe a smaller dose because I gave some folks that breathwork, you know, like a ceremonial dose and it definitely sits in your stomach. It's a diuretic. So, you'll probably pee a lot more. And so, yeah, on breathwork, it's probably not the best, but yeah, full-on like holotropic or transpersonal style for sure. Like we want to do a little lighter. I could totally agree with that. Yeah. So, that's really interesting. We'll report back on how that works out on the show. So, yeah, we also want to check in with you guys and really want to see what you want from the show. It sounds like we're doing well and getting you guys for the most part what you want, but, you know, maybe there's specific guests or specific subjects you want to hear about. We also want to hear about like what would you like to see in a class on navigating psychedelics? Is it, you know, more specifics on integration, how to be safer? Do you want, you know, hands-on video training on how best to freebase DMT? Like what are you looking for? And we're definitely willing to try to put stuff together for you guys. Even if it's on a really specific thing. So, just let us know. And for guests, we're really interested in underrepresented people that might be, you know, not getting enough press in the field, but you might really, you know, be a fan of their work and want to hear from them directly. Maybe you've only read one of their papers or something they wrote for a place like Vice or Symposia. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But you want to hear from them directly for an hour or something like that. So, you know, we're really happy to take submissions from you guys on that kind of stuff. Yeah, that'd be awesome. So, let's talk a little bit about cognitive liberty. There's this thing just keeps coming to mind lately about asking for permission. Like what does that mean? Like you're an adult. Human, hopefully, if you're listening to the show. If you're under 18, maybe don't tell anybody. But yeah, you're probably an adult human and you're asking for permission to do things. Like you have to ask for permission to drive a car or a scooter. You have to get a permit to drive your scooter around town. You have to, you know, put in 10 years of work and endless hours of form submission and phone calls to do what Rick Strassman did with the DMT work. Like the amount of legwork he had to do. to before putting that study together is ungodly, you know that good on him for having that kind of patience. But what does that mean that we have to jump through these hoops to do research that we think is scientifically very reasonable? You know, also iboga ibogaine five me o dmt work with addicts totally illegal in america like do we need to really wait and ask permission for that kind of stuff like i don't know kyle like when you hear me kind of ranting here what it what comes to mind for you yeah i i totally get it and i think with uh rick's work and rick strassman that was i think the first psychedelic research that really happened after the whole blowback yeah first so i totally get why he had to jump through hoops and why there was so much legwork to be done and really thankful that he did do that because i feel like it definitely opened up the door for a lot of this research to re-emerge and to get re-examined um yeah i don't know i go back and forth with it because you know how many for how many years have indigenous people been using these medicines and then if that if you do come from that lineage you can't necessarily use that medicine without permission or you have to work in it in the underground and is that really fair for people that have been using it for maybe thousands of years um what do you get it from the standpoint what was that what do you mean by like not fair i've been thinking about this a lot lately the cultural appropriation thing and i'm like i'm trying i'm trying to be sensitive to the issue but i also feel like there's really hard limits to those arguments um i want to understand it do you mean yeah do you mean um like when i meant fair on the indigenous side or from the western side when you said fair to those indigenous people like i get like you know um over harvesting stuff like that not necessarily being fair but there's ways to address that it's just not being done right um yeah i mean i think i meant fair in the sense of like you know this their medicine has been around for a while and then all of a sudden they have to kind of go on the underground or maybe uh there's laws on the street or something like that yeah i mean i think i meant strict the use of that and so they have to put their culture on hold in some sense or um really work in the underground right because i hope that's becoming legal or at least in the u.s like i think in mexico like obviously the catholic church and the jesuits tried on purpose to kill all these people to suppress that stuff because jesus was the only salvation they were like deliberately killing and burning books um for from these master shamans all over the world so that jesus was the answer for everybody so you know there was that deliberate approach obviously it's not great and drug prohibition has definitely damaged them further these organizations i hope i hope stuff like combo or like five mu dmt and and ayahuasca haven't been too illegal for the communities that have traditionally used them it it sounds like the amazon basin it never really became too illegal um and i don't know like i don't really understand mexico's drug laws all that well but i hope it hasn't been that way there either do you do you know much about that um i don't know i think in oaxaca mushrooms might be legal for traditional use right but um i'm not 100 sure there was but you know i mean when the spaniards came over they all that stuff went underground in some sense because it was considered witchcraft and yeah the church had a really um you know why they couldn't use it right still it's still left over in some sense yeah absolutely there so in college i remember reading some books about the um american indian movement in the i think it was through the 40s through the 70s and this one leader for the american indian movement you know these this is like before the native americans had um legal precedent to use peyote and stuff like that and there's also a really a lot of a lot of garbage going on around reservations and relocation but uh yeah this guy who was a big activist and also himself native american was just you know would roll up to stop signs stop lights next to a cop and the cops would recognize him and just full-on start unloading on this dude with their guns like unbelievable stories and he's yeah this dude had been shot many times and uh it amazing perseverance and amazing dedication to his people that that specifically i think was you know where where it for sure was unfair and you know maybe another way it could be unfair is um brazilians like santo dime folks or like you know traditional shamanic folks um who who used ayahuasca in that way in the amazon basin moved to america and their stuff isn't illegal in their church context you know that that kind of thing or you know that that that could be a way of looking at it for sure yeah i i guess now that you're mentioning that i'm kind of recon or thinking about it that yes there's piety churches you have the uh you know the santa dime and the udv it's not completely taken away right like it's been you know permission was asked for over the course of decades and they gave it back you know yeah that kind of feeds back to this whole thing like to what degree are we obligated to ask permission um and you know that's something everybody has to answer for themselves you know some people have a stronger affinity to the law than others some people are more afraid than others you know i'm pretty afraid i drove by some super max prisons the other day on saturday that was exciting gave me some shivers and then a federal penitentiary on the other side of the highway it was really creepy yeah it's a town that makes all its money on prisons horrifying i can't even imagine the psychology of that town there was a town and i think i might have mentioned this in an episode before but there was a town in pennsylvania um years ago it was a teen penitentiary oh and they were making so much money off the juveniles it was a juvenile detention and they were would sentence like some teenagers for like maybe three months and they end up being there for a year and i mean you know it went under investigation and i think you know it's in the it's out now but i think they kind of shut down that but yeah they were uh making profit off of kids it was terrible i think i mentioned on the show before but there was this um ballot initiative this year in colorado where um we were supposed to vote against slavery which unpaid labor in prisons was the thing they were talking about and i was like oh my goodness you know good on them for using this phrasing but it's like uh it's a it's a fascinating thing right like how do we i don't know enough about prisons but what i do know is they're not effective for rehabilitation but uh yeah it's fascinating about the juveniles yeah i mean it is kind of scary to really think about and coming back to the permission of like you know to experiment with your consciousness and to explore that is almost like a human birthright i mean what is consciousness what makes us different from animals we have consciousness and to want to or i shouldn't say i mean i'm sure animals have consciousness but not in the way that maybe humans do you know having these mystical and spiritual experiences i don't know who knows maybe they do and they just can't communicate it to us and they don't show it um but you know it's you know that's what makes humans unique and to not be able to explore that i don't know it seems why i i get it in some sense of why you might need to ask permission because it kind of maybe you know there's that argument of that it strengthens that to move away from authoritarianism and to break free from the culture all that free thinking and that and that's troublesome if you're trying to keep order but um julian veiny you you mentioned this quote julian veiny used from socrates the unexamined life is not worth living which is an interesting thing it's in every freshman philosophy course and you know i used to identify with it um yeah bradley foster also recently bradley foster is the um gentleman up in toronto hi bradley who helps run the toronto psychedelic society and he had this really cool quote i think it was one of the mckenna quotes that he put up on facebook about you know the reason why psychedelics are illegal being something about just like dissolving social constructs um and i thought it was like a really important quote um i'll try to find it in a little bit um yeah it's like we we're at the point right now where we really need to consider why we have to think constantly about why are these things illegal because we're kind of mm-hmm you know in in the phase of trying to figure out how to dissolve these things so yeah here's the quote psychedelics are illegal not because a loving government is concerned that you may jump out of a third story window psychedelics are illegal because they dissolve opinion structures and cultural laid down models of behavior and information processing they open you up to the possibility that everything you know is wrong and that is terence mckenna quote um according to the uh little infographic they made but uh yeah it's there's something inherently dangerous to culture about psychedelics culture is this kind of comfortable um set of relationships and interactions that that have all these rules around them you know a really strict version would be something like the indian caste system where you know the untouchables aren't really allowed to talk to anybody else and definitely not touch them and uh you know that's thankfully kind of dissolving a little bit but i even see people in the yoga world taught speaking well of the caste system because it's like so so it's you i don't i don't really want to piss anybody off but it seems to be woven into the structure of a lot of these hindu um foundational texts like the upanishads and bhagavad-gita like they they can draw relationships between like you know social hierarchy and and you know lines of scripture and justify it um it's interesting to me is like this whole concept of priest craft taking taking out this um natural use of psychedelics by cultures by by individual societies like the priests come in and they put a ritual around it around the psychedelic use and then they take away the psychedelics and keep the ritual and then they do the psychedelics and then the priests forget about the psychedelics and and then it becomes a very unpsychedelic society which you know there's some beautiful aspects to indian culture hinduism but you know there's also some pretty ugly stuff um just like with most religions mainstream religions so yeah it's almost like culture was designed specifically to suppress these things from a way back point of view thousands of years ago like the in the european world which is which is who still use a lot of this stuff these days you know wiccans and and there are some like there actually are some holdouts in europe that you know have a really long lineage of witchcraft that use plants and uh in interesting ways visionary ways um i think we kind of chatted with uh peter swarsted h about that a little bit um that there is this tradition alive in europe that's a pretty long lineage and these people were killed you know by the church and by governments because it made people you know you know the forest was the church as opposed to like you know the thing that king rubber stamped as the church yeah and i mean it's interesting to go back into european history and think about the as ulysinian mysteries um and to know that they went on for 2 000 years and it wasn't really until rome uh conquered greece that it kind of all vanished it was like the last of european psychedelic societies i mean you know i guess it is speculation of um what is or what the you know what they drank in the temples but yeah absolutely it was probably the speculation right now is that it's probably some sort of ergot derived thing acid or lsd is an ergot derived molecule and the idea was that there was this drink um that they could drink and and go really far out and no longer be afraid of death um i don't know if you caught these references kyle but there was these uh hints about people later um being found guilty of using the sacrament of elusis at their homes and parties um and they were like you know looked down upon or like uh i think the penalty was it wasn't death but it was like what's it called when you can't come back exile yeah got it yeah um it might be death too because i think i remember reading into the road to ulysinian um that you know went off for 2 000 years but it was also punishable by death to even talk about the experience right the road so it was a secret for the hoffman book yeah i think it was like hoffman and carl ruck and gordon watson wrote it yeah yeah it sounds like three part yeah it's really interesting um and yeah what what is it that makes this stuff not okay and it looks to me to be all about power structures and the power dynamic like if you look at 60s america people stopped caring what the government thought and they just said yeah fuck it we're doing our own thing see you later government i'm not going to vietnam i'm going to eat all this acid and smoke weed instead and chill out on a beach or whatever you know i went into this analogy when we were talking on the big two podcast and i think it is a lot about control and so you know the analogy that i use is that maybe governments and religion organizations you know there's this big forest and the people outside the forest aren't allowed in and you might have a lot of people outside the forest that are not the priest or the leader in front of that forest saying you can't go in there there's a big scary monster in there and only if i've seen it and i will tell you what it is and you cannot go in there and so you know over generations and generations of this story being passed down accept it and go well you know it's in there and that's just what it is and the person that finds his way in there and and sees is like well this is what it is and everybody thinks that they're crazy because nobody has ever been in there and they're not going to go in there and they're not going to go in there besides the leader the priest or whoever's garden garden that and you know people get in there in all sorts of ways you know and i think that you know it's not just psychedelics that's going to open you up i mean you can have these experiences through meditation you could have it through yoga you could have a kundalini awakening i mean what really opened me up as you know most of you know i've talked about it a lot is is the near death experience i mean that really just shattered me and um you know i think that is for me my most psychedelic experience and that's what got me interested in psychedelics was having this experience with me and not understanding what we're all doing here in some sense or what that experience was because it was so profound like being out of your body having this communion with a higher energy or you know something telling me hey you're going home you know and what is that all about i mean yeah how do you explain that you know i found some sort of grounding in psychedelics with rick strassman's work with the dmt i mean that just kind of made sense to me if i had this endogenous release of dmt it just kind of been like okay like this makes sense because i had that experience with psilocybin that was very similar and um you know there's there's so many different ways i mean you could be driving and get in a car accident and then you have this full-blown mystical spiritual experience and then you come back and start questioning things because you found your way in that that forest and you saw this monster or something like that and then you're like oh my god whatever it was you know huh well this wasn't what they told me it was like and uh you know the the rest of the population questions whether you actually went in there or not yeah yeah it's um it's pretty crazy like the the level to which a lot of this stuff is perpetuated and i think i saw the first person i really saw talk about this actively was a graham hand graham hancock when i hosted him for an event in boston for revolver boston this really cool anarchist chinatown loft um he started talking about this you know the origins of the the modern human mind kind of using mckenna model to explain it and talked about therianthropes so like the idea of humans becoming animals and those being on early cave paintings and you know i think that's a really cool thing to do and i think that's a really cool thing to do you know it's you know it's obviously psychedelic was his argument but then he moves on to like human sovereignty like why as an adult are you not able to explore the thing you own most directly which is your body and mind soul like why are you why is it illegal for you to do that and there's there's no good reason um the argumentation is weak and we you know that's kind of partially what we're doing with this show right is kind of saying hey these drug laws are not great drug war has had negative outcomes there's no positive outcomes from the drug war that i can think of other than rich people staying rich and you know the cia being able to self-fund um itself outside of the uh off the books um you know everybody should know that too the cia does a lot of drug dealing to fund their black operations it's you know very long history of that it's no no news um a lot of dealings with the mafia from its original origins and they've gone global mobile and global um so you know it's just a way they can fund their stuff you know unfortunately it's gone that way um but yeah you know why is that it is the cia funding the reason why the drug war perpetuated so much you know rich people love drugs you know what yeah what the fuck what's happening is it just a way to keep the population down and afraid i i i don't know yeah um i think about this a lot and you know there's a lot of conspiracies i mean even that that analogy is just a really general generalized statement you know who knows if that's really what it is um i i i was really big into the conspiracy stuff a while ago especially with you know the cia not to say that that's a full conspiracy i mean there's definitely some people in documentation and stuff like that happens oh for sure um you know but is it about money is it about control or do people just are about you know is it scary to even go into that realm and people just don't want other people going in there um i don't know i think it's complex question to answer there's a book um people might check out confessions of an economic hitman by a guy named perkins who is now kind of an ayahuasca guy but he worked for one of these big engineering firms that would design and and give loans to developing nations and the purpose of the loans was not to do big infrastructure projects that was the stated goal. the real goal was to make them bankrupt and beholden to um u.s banks large banks like the world bank or imf or whatever and the concept was that when they went bankrupt they then owned those un votes they said okay you now vote with us in the un or like you know various other continuing debt structures to keep these countries poor and indebted and kind of like slave states almost um so that was really laid out in that confessions of an economic hitman book i i was blown away by that that was like a huge bestseller so not really like fringe conspiracy stuff it was pretty you know well documented there um and yeah the cia stuff for sure above board like you just have to kind of dig in and say okay yep pretty obviously they at least used to do this um even a year ago so odds are good they didn't change yet um so yeah you know they you know i don't know i don't know there is this i mean it's a good business model you make you make something legal illegal and then you bring it in so you're making the money off of selling the drugs and they're making money off of imprisoning people i mean it's pretty decent model if you're in a capitalistic society and absolutely i mean yeah yeah and you you get more and more war toys to outpower the the russians or whatever um so it's you know it's something to consider something to keep on your radar that there are all sorts of international power dynamics going around around going on around this stuff like there's a reason why portugal can't go full recreational legal yet and it's largely due to international pressure from the u.s and probably the eu will will kind of try to enforce some stuff based on that but i don't know did you see that uh article i put up the other day the un and who um said that we should decriminalize all drugs i saw the headline i didn't read it let me pull that up because i think that is a huge move um and it obviously flies in the face of what the united states you know from a power perspective really wants international power perspective um yeah headline the un and who just called for drugs to be decriminalized um in a joint release they said that um be awesome yeah okay so it was buried in a joint release on ending health care discrimination they said that we need to be reviewing and repealing punitive laws that been have been proven to have negative health outcomes by member states drug use or possession of drug use for personal use yeah so i just finished that carl hart book high price and blown away by the story there and he lays out really well how prohibition can have serious negative impact on generations and generations of people and the drug war could realistically be the number one thing that keeps black communities poor and keeps them kind of being fringe and and not integrating and it's this fear of police due to drug stuff largely and it's just this cycle that's been going on forever you know since the sixties well you know police discrimination against minorities has been happening for a lot longer than that but drugs have been a great excuse for the police to be doing crackdowns and arresting people at in these communities like i can't even i'm afraid to watch this tv show the wire because like that's that's what i'm imagining baltimore like they're going to be portraying baltimore like and i know this guy was doing all this like pretty gnarly stuff you know ostensibly for good but holy moly like imagine all the the poor lives you ruined and um it's terrible and you know i think like the decriminalization like movement i you know for me it's not really about like i want drugs to be decriminalized so everybody gets high all the time and it's nothing to do about that for me you know it's like the the lives you know the impact that it's having on so many like minority communities and just people in general you know it's like the the lives you know the impact that it's having on so many like minority communities and just people in general like it's just a terrible cycle like why are we locking people up why are we targeting these communities why and it's so easy i mean we are like as you know dennis mckenna and other people say like we are drugs you know um and you know if you believe in that theory that we co-evolved with plants and we have these receptors for a reason i mean there's a reason why we like to alter our consciousness i mean it's just human nature in some sense and to sit there and target something that's human nature just seems so immoral and i mean easy too and pretty cowardly it's like okay let's just lock everybody up for whatever reason like i just don't understand it it's terrible i mean think about the people that could are really bright and come from maybe a minority uh community and you know they're on their way to and they get arrested and then they get all the financial aid pulled and then i mean it it really just messes with people and it's terrible and then especially the other side of it where it's actually creating probably worse drugs you know like if you didn't like make this illegal then there'd be no reason i mean i guess there would be a reason for curiosity sake but there would be no reason to alter chemicals you know some of them are altered because oh if we change this molecular compound just a little bit and tweak it it'll be legal because it's not in its original form you're having all these crazy analogs and we don't really know what the effects are i mean we know that you know lsd is pretty safe for the most part and um you know some of these other compounds are relatively safe and now that they've just been tweaking and tweaking i mean it's kind of absurd i mean it's cool for like research and seeing what else is out there but i mean um it's not cool like the other day somebody posted this uh video i think this woman high on flaca and it was just terrible terrifying and saddening what was that flaca pretty much spice yeah i think i think so like bath salts um stimulant of cathinone class developed in the 60s sold as a designer drug um and i just started watching these videos of people just suffering on this stuff and it was like horrifying you know this somebody posted in one in some facebook group and just like couldn't control her body movements and just screaming and it's just like wow yeah right like this is terrible you can't help them because they're just totally gone you know and those states are just you know no helping it doesn't seem like it you know people were trying to feed them water get them up off the ground and you know their muscle spasms just absurd and they're trying to feed them water get them off the ground and you know they're trying to feed them water get them off the ground and you know their muscle spasms just absurd and they're trying to feed them water get them off the ground and you know they're trying to feed them water get them off the ground this guy was going around to different drug sellers and manufacturers and just kind of like interviewing them and he was in i don't know somewhere in the south or like southern midwest and they were doing um this like crystal meth cook inside two liter coke bottles and using battery acid and like brake fluid and they would sell it and they would use it and and that was their thing and and i think prohibition is the reason why they're doing this if they could buy something for four dollars at the store or you know maybe a legal analog like um ritalin or adderall which is pretty much methamphetamine anyway it's just an amphetamine salt i think it's the same effect like they wouldn't need to be using brake fluid and battery acid and smoking it or whatever like that's a clear and present danger to people's health when they could have something that's pharmaceutically pure for a relatively cheap price right i mean the the spice and the K2 and all that stuff, i know people that would smoke it because they were on probation or they couldn't smoke weed and so they'd smoke a synthetic weed a lot of soldiers like okay what was that a lot of soldiers would do that just to pass their drug test yeah yeah and like you have something that's relatively you know non-toxic and and you make it illegal and then there's more toxic chemicals and it's just causing much more problems like it just i don't know to me it's just boggles my mind that that we've gotten there you know yeah yeah absolutely it sucks it sucks a lot and you know what if people instead of doing flaca or homemade meth they could have have relatively pure standard stuff that they know the dosage of so that they can control their safety and dosage or you know this whole safe injecting site thing that's happening now so people can go to a safe place to inject and you know you know zero overdoses for when you go to these safe injection sites and because you know your dose and you have a medical professional watching you so there's way less medical problems i think you know one way to look at it is from like a purely um economic way like so how would how would you convince a hardcore republican or libertarian that this is a good move and the argument is um one number i heard the other day from mate's when they were talking about the body says no is that for every was that right this could have been when the body keeps score um i don't know that guy's name but it's a harvard psychiatrist um for every dollar spent on early um childhood care and development you save seven dollars downstream for you know um police patrols health care um unemployment all that kind of stuff so the better advantage we give these people the more um they can contribute to society even in terms of just bare minimum tax dollars so what if you were you know an executive but you had to use heroin and you could use it safely at an injection site keep it totally under wraps and go back to your day job after you did your daily dose of heroin or twice daily dose there's there's some examples in the book of uh i think it was high price where they talked about no it was a chasing the scream the recent one i read it was a um by that british journalist it was fantastic like you know imagine if you had drug users instead of being marginalized able to still do their drug of addiction whatever and still contribute to society so they weren't this like awful wretch they were an actual human yeah and i think that's the narrative though that they're an awful wretch i just yeah i just saw this article about someplace in ohio they wanted to do a three strike rule oh and you know i think it's getting blow back but some people are on board with it that have you know on their third overdose you know the police just don't even respond and you just let them die and it's just like are you serious like that's just like what you think because it's like too much to respond like and if you if you've overdosed you know three times and they're just saying like then you know you should just die because you didn't get the lesson the first time and it's just like wow like that's so messed up yeah wow and there's people that believe that because people believe that you know these people are scum and yeah you know well and it's and then you know you got to look at like our societal issues i think it really is environmental in some sense and societal and you know if you're living in a poor socioeconomic place and you know there's nothing to do i mean sure yeah you're gonna do drugs absolutely you know what about the rat park study we posted that video on the rat park study and it's like oh my god i'm gonna do drugs i'm gonna do drugs and you know i'm sure there's criticisms on on it but uh you know these these rats are in this cage and they have access to heroin or a drug and they just do the drugs and then once you start adding more rats in and you create this nice little environment to play and they kind of start weaning off by the end of the book um chasing the scream they had me convinced that shame and stigma against drugs as well as prohibition um were the reasons people stayed addicted so if people had the ability to keep their addiction you know and and keep a functional life typically people would stop using naturally without even having treatment and you know that was the case a lot of opiate addicts a lot of heroin users so they had this story of um heroin user being totally accepted and helped like even helped getting drugs sourced for them as long as they injected at home with them not out in the street somewhere and they knew that they could like have a safe place and a nice friendship still with a normal human instead of being like a marginalized person and it was fascinating i i don't necessarily suggest everybody take heroin users into their home but like it's something to consider like if we can safely integrate them into our lives and and you know make them not need to steal what happens then like do they return to being kind of a normal human if they don't need to steal i think the answer is yes like if you're a rich heroin user oh my god the the one person this is fascinating to me that that we're chasing the scream brought up as a heroin user that no one would ever really know as a heroin user was um mccarthy you know that whole mccarthyism thing where they would like grill people um are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party they grilled everybody in america my high school teacher did that to us as a thing and she didn't tell us we were doing she was doing that and brought somebody up it was like have you ever smoked marijuana before and it was like if you say yes then we're gonna bring you to the uh principal and if you say no well we might suspect that you're lying and like you know everybody and she had it videotaped too so was she doing it people are like people are like people are doing it like you can't do that like what was the deal was she just doing it she was just trying to yeah she was trying to show a point on how it was back then she was kind of reenacting oh my god so you guys were just freaking out yeah people were freaking out man that's great what a good prank yeah um yeah man that's it's it's fascinating like that that kind of a thing and uh and slinger who kind of like was one of the main proponents of starting the drug war he like i think ran whatever narcotics group was like the first one out there during the the whole like pot prohibition thing he was the one that actually was sourcing heroin for mccarth um help me out mccarthy yeah mccarthyism i think right yeah yeah so fascinating that anslinger this crazy drug war person actually had a heart for somebody that was you know somebody he could relate to like you know a super anti-communist guy that's interesting ostensibly super anti-communist who knows um yeah man this whole thing comes down to like you know why are these laws in place should they still be in place how do we fight them um and then how do we ignore them if we choose to how do we ignore them safely so we don't get in trouble and our friends don't get in trouble and um you know the law apparatus out there is pretty powerful and it is yeah the law is the law you know and it's like hard to get around that um in some sense so it's tricky it's really tricky like i personally would be if this drug war stuff stopped um i feel like i could trust police again you know like i i personally feel like it gives police too much power to overstep their bounds and to do stuff that's not serving and protecting like you know drug war stuff is obviously not protecting people you might think oh yeah i got another drug dealer so you know there's 12 less illegal guns out there it's like no that's not how it works at all yeah especially in small towns too where there's nothing going on um you know i i definitely know some people that have been pulled over multiple times and since uh there's you know chris christie's all about the heroin and trying to clean the streets up in new jersey and you know there's a big push because there's this heroin epidemic in new jersey that um you know if the police were suspicious they would pull you over just to try and search you because there's a huge uh drug issue and um clean that up and it's like you know living in a small town and then just going out and then getting pulled over and harassed and it's just like like i i was i was driving with a friend who had a um he he pulled out his front passenger seat because he had like this weird wet spot that just kept happening under the floor and so the mechanic took the seat out uh just to let it dry i mean it looks kind of sketchy because i was sitting in the back there's no front seat and you know we got pulled over but also definitely kind of profiled a little bit um you know long hair and you know just trying to you know and when we got pulled over it's just like a bunch of questions you know and then trying to say why are you nervous you know i'm like dude i don't it's just it's absurd one of the interesting things i learned in one of these books i have no idea which one it was was um how a lot of this drug violence isn't coming from drug users it's coming from prohibition and the more busts there are the more that organizations need to jockey for power and you know fight and shoot and whatever and after a handful of years it tends to stabilize it's like okay group x has control of this market segment with this you know this region with this product and the more busts there are the more that organizations need to like try to you know jockey for power in certain places and you know when a new drug comes on the scene a lot of that violence comes from organizations trying to have that be their territory and it's you know prohibition if we didn't have prohibition we had recreational sales legal you Just don't want to go anywhere all this violence would be gone like the the need to police yeah would just be like pretty much gone man like i don't i can't even imagine there being room for a black market especially a violent black market um well what's the black market like in um colorado with weed being legal i mean there's still a black market but i can't imagine it being as big you know because didn't colorado just pass a bill to cut down on the amount of plants you could grow because they're concerned about the black market i think so it's so it's a really silly thing like i i get it like i get that people are always going to want to have their own like black market grow and you know try to stay outside the law just because there's such a long tradition of that in the marijuana and i'm sorry cannabis world i want to stop saying marijuana um but uh yeah there's this group of people that are going to keep growing and you know they've been doing it for 40 years and they're going to keep growing and maybe they just picked it up recently and that's what they want to do is sell weed illegally their friends um but it's it's not huge like you could make a lot of money i think the illegal grows are the ones that are like growing in state and exporting typically okay but there are these people that i know who are just like oh those prices are stupid i'm gonna go to my friend over here you know jimmy up on the hill and you know maybe you spend a little bit less money but i regulation because you don't know what jimmy on the hill is putting on those plants pesticide wise or whatever and you know perhaps you're able to find somebody like even maybe a boutique brand that does organic outdoor you know carbon free grows they're not even using lights so it's 100 natural and renewable or i have some friends that grow legally who are doing fully organic even though there's no organic standard they are just doing as much organic standard as they can and they're just doing as much organic standard as they can and they're as they can and uh you know there's those people that you know too um and you know maybe you buy from a mass market retailer and it doesn't have anything about like you know safety or no pesticides or anything and you end up with that or sometimes there's people who put those pesticides on their product get away with it for a year or two and then get super fined and out of and typically these people are going to get busted because there's so much testing that happens more testing right in recreational than medical actually which is really fascinating to me huh that's interesting i think it's good too to like test for mold and pesticides and all that stuff yeah i mean it's stuff that i never even thought about before until recreation and medical started happening you know why would you hold oh wow yeah i didn't even think about that yeah there's no reason why you would right like what it's it's not something we're taught about especially in a black market world that oh look there's a safer better way to do this um where there's you know substantially less harms to you and your friends you know just like what we're trying to do here like you know decriminalization and making it you know regulated and legal immediate causation to decrease harms you know even if the harm is you know a potential cancer 20 years down the line from a weird pesticide or a weird chemical you know like why not get a head of that instead of just let this black market thing happen because people are not going to stop getting high like people are going to keep getting high forever there's no way around it even if it's digital drugs or whatever it's still going to happen digital drugs like yeah like that light smoking microchips yeah like the lucia light thing like imagine imagine what the designers of that could build in five years like there's so many tweaks with brainwave entrainment or whatever to make that and think about like vr too you know absolutely like yeah the the first medicinal mindfulness event or psychedelic shine event i went to in boulder there's this panel of students talking about drugs and vr like what does drug interaction look like with vr and that was really fascinating and uh there's a lot of room there and it's gonna blow up ten year olds are gonna love it well here's here's a question so we have all these natural ways to get high in a sense you got breathing drumming fasting meditation yoga breath work vr it seems like might be the future lucia light um or lucia light um i mean why do you think that could you even make those illegal like if this was about cognitive liberty and we didn't want people to explore their consciousness why why make a plant illegal but not make a technique illegal you know breathwork i think has been banned at finhorn ironically but i think that was because they might have had a bad experience uh finhorn for those who don't know is this um human potential movement place in england similar to esalen um kind of like permaculture i think it's over in scotland oh okay cool yeah it's like that their answer to um esalen uh it's pretty interesting um yeah so i think you know the it's it's becoming limited right we have this you know on one hand people want to be fascist and really control what you can do on the other hand technology is making it too easy so um you know price drops in laboratory equipment manufacturer and all that kind of stuff has just made drugs more available to more people um education is now free online so you could be a master chemist for free from the internet probably and there's minimal barrier to entry for this stuff so you're not going to stop it and you're only doing harm by keeping up on this drug war thing and you know at what point do you stop at what point does the conversation become um elevated to the point where we can you know start making progress and i forget who brought it up it might have been carl hart it might have been jack davies talking about like the biggest activist move you can do is just kind of come out a little bit or come out all the way about drug use and about your opinions on drug use and it's taken me over the course of the year this year really to come out to my family and to come out online a little bit about my positions on drug policy stuff and it's to a degree some stuff about drug use but not all the way and you know it's been really helpful and it shows that people are paying attention and people are saying oh look look at him being open about the drug use and it's been really helpful and it shows that maybe i should talk about safe injection sites too or talk about how racist the drug war is all sorts of stuff like that um i hope that wasn't too ranty but it's this really complex issue and and we need to think hard about how do we improve this stuff and carl hart actually had this criticism in his book about the drug policy alliance about how their focus really was on marijuana um even though it's supposedly everything um and how he thought it was just so white boys were okay getting high like they were safer getting high and it wasn't necessarily about the broad spectrum of drug issues i think he's kind of like been on their board for a while so he's helped influence that because it's it's not just about white folks it's about everybody it's about people from every background in every country and uh if you're a minority group you're probably going to get beat up for what drugs your community likes and you know i i don't know how much the black community likes psychedelics uh but you know for sure they like marijuana oh i said it again cannabis um so yeah in i the disproportionate sentencing which is kind of an obvious thing like black people go to jail for a lot longer than white people do for drug crimes that's absurd and that clearly needs to stop and we need to make sure people are aware of that so that could be a great way to open up that discussion on the drug war with people you're chatting with yeah i think there's actually a study in new jersey i saw about uh cannabis arrests versus white people versus uh african americans and you know it's definitely disproportionate i think like one third of white people got arrested versus like three quarters of african americans getting arrested or something like that but uh along those lines um i saw this really weird sad my girlfriend's been watching us uh tom's like tv show called blue bloods and i caught like two minutes of this intro and right off the bat they had this new york city stop and frisk thing but inside a private residence the kid got caught with heroin because he's probably selling heroin but he was inside a building and they did a stop and frisk like not necessarily a normal constitutional search and um stop and frisk for those who don't know is this policy in new york where in some neighborhoods police can just stop people and and uh search them down and arrest them and it's outrageously racist and they're they're doing it to the black community all over new york city and this this particular one like took it to the next level where it was like inside a private building not even on the street and i'm like oh my goodness gracious and i i think the person got off i didn't watch till the end but just the fact that it was discussed on tv i thought was good but i don't think they portrayed it the way i would want to portray it oh geez yeah and if you're listening you know we had a jack davies talked about the stop and frisk history on that episode so i'd go back and check that out um it was definitely an interesting history i didn't know anything about it until he mentioned it so it was pretty cool but you know it seems like we're making progress you know in the scientific world and you know that article that was just released about decriminalization it seems like we are making this progress but also i don't know about backward movement too because i just saw an article about how um at at the berm this year burning man um they want to drug test people like the drivers coming in and out and it's like what the hell's going on there you know it's uh yeah and you know we're getting there for sure so this headline just popped up for me from a psypost.org study ritalin use in childhood could induce long-lasting alterations in neurotransmission so like we said before ritalin and adderall are pretty much methamphetamine um probably without the meth part but it's an amphetamine and it has a very similar effect and we're giving it to children without really thinking about the consequences there's this uh it feels to me like willful ignorance about the effects of drugs long-term on people and i don't know what it is like why would a doctor just say yep cool here you go don't even need to look at a questionnaire or anything yeah yeah that 10 year old looks messed up so here's a bunch of pills and have a nice life like you know that has long-term long-lasting effect and why is that legal if it has the same effects as meth it just doesn't make sense and um yeah so you know i think a holistic perspective is coming people like gabor mate and um others who are kind of high profile in that world of childhood development trauma are going to be able to influence it just might take a while i i really hate seeing the speed of of progress with science like the scientific method and this whole kind of like peer-reviewed journal thing makes me frustrated because i don't know if i'm going to be able to read it because there's like this 15 year lag time almost till to clinical practice it seems like often and you know if we look at the environmental collapse situation it's kind of similar and that one's almost even more dire than the human one like we can live with some really traumatized folks generation to generation but if the planet's toast how are we going to make it you know right like uh we go to space but maybe that's only four thousand of us you know it's not it's not a couple billion going to space that's for sure i'd be an expensive trip to get a billion people up there yeah yeah it's actually so this is very tangential but i was listening to joe rogan two days ago and he had this guest on who's saying stuff like the reason he isn't super nervous about climate change is the fact that the rich people aren't freaking out about it because rich people clearly want their their children to have all the benefits possible um in the world and you know they rich people are you know privy to science that maybe some of us don't have and you know why are they not freaking out over climate or are they freaking out some are some are like elon musk his whole thing is largely about climate change the getting rid of cars you know getting rid of coal fueled plants and and his whole thing about getting off the planet is about kind of having a redundancy um a bit you know we we need to be a multi-planetary situation multi-planetary civilization for the reasons of nuclear war climate change asteroid strikes and there's probably a few others like you know we need to be able to do that um and yeah yeah absolutely civil war um i i just think it's kind of the next step you know we need to figure out stuff here obviously but you know science isn't going to stop getting us off i think psychedelics will play a key role in healing a lot of this trauma it's intergenerational transmitted trauma and we just need to get there we're getting close you know what are we at 2021 uh it's still five years away four years man we'll be here before you know it though true true true time i was just i was just listening something about um 2012 and i was like man 2012 seemed so like not too long ago at all you know and we were all freaking out about the world ending and you know what it's already been like five years since then so yeah it seemed like yesterday everybody was freaking out about 2012 that's true that's true um and and that brings up a you know we're talking about climate change and and this and that and destruction this is i guess off topic but it just made me think about this so i went to this um this uh weekend workshop with this this mayan uh or no it was a book reading um by this mayan shaman his name is martin prechtel and of course somebody asked the question this is before december 21st happened you know what what's gonna happen in 2012 you know um you know coming from mayan tradition and understanding it somebody thought he might have had an answer and you know his answer is like oh you all you christians and the religious and new agers he's like everybody just thinks about the apocalypse constantly you know and it's um the apocalypse is is gonna like you're just obsessed with it he's like in our culture doesn't mean that at all you know like we didn't think the world was gonna end but for some reason like your culture just constantly obsesses about the end of the world um i thought that was really interesting you know because it seems like we do do a lot of stuff trying to save the end of the world to make sure it doesn't happen and i mean right partly it's out of our control i mean we're definitely influencing it in some way but i think also wanting to save it also might have a negative impact of creating new technologies and wanting to do different things where you're using more resources than you really have and do you really need to do that maybe i don't know i keep coming back to maybe it is about stewardship and balance and um not needing to go slay the dragon and save other people i mean people figure things out you know uh i don't know absolutely i i agree to a degree i don't think market forces are going to figure it out i think we're probably going to survive it's probably going to be a rough stretch but we're going to make it um probably a lot of people are going to die but you know not you know not billions probably millions and um it's yeah we're going to get it and yeah work on yourself did you see the recent articles about um psychedelic use correlating to environmental awareness and activism i did yeah that's an interesting one yeah and i think like what i was trying to get at is about just working on yourself and i think like what i was trying to get at is about just working on yourself and not trying to save somebody else and really like when you start working on yourself you kind of are helping out the bigger picture because you know you're not projecting stuff on the other people that you would be you know and you know i think this archetype that western culture holds is this this archetype of the hero where we need to go out and then save everything and do this and do that and i mean i don't think we need to i think we really kind of need to have self-reflection and think about what we're doing ourselves you know and really look inward a little bit instead of trying to fix everybody else's problems think globally act locally permaculture has this idea of zones of design and you know zone zero is a pretty important part of permaculture and that's yourself like how do you personally fit into that design um that you're working on um or how did how does that individual that you're designing for fit in and yeah day-to-day stuff like daily practice like meditation yoga tai chi whatever kind of contemplative practice you have like that kind of stuff helps tie you into a more healthy state to then have better interactions more effective and more informed interactions with the world um you know instead of working 200 hours maybe you can do what you really need to do in 20 minutes um and have a way bigger impact and it's this you know like that those parables about zen masters like blowing people's minds just like a little tap or or for instance this uh guru that stant groff kind of had some interactions with um i think it was christina groff's like kind of yoga guru kind of kundalini guy um like did something crazy like i think do you know this story kyle like put his thumb in stan's eye socket almost doesn't ring a bell so he did something like this like uh like thumb in the eye socket and then like the rest of the hand kind of wrapped around the face and stan had the most outrageous visionary experience and um after like a minute or two of that the guru said okay i will be with you in your work like and that to probably that probably helped keep holotropic breathwork alive in a lot of ways like having this kind of wild non-drug pro um psych psychological professional be able to do you know something like that to him he's already been through a lot stan at that point so like yeah that had to be some sort of you know third party verification of yes i should keep promoting holotropic breathwork and keep on this path and do something like that so i think that's kind of this mission and you know i don't know that for sure um if we ever get the chance to talk to him again like maybe that's a good thing to ask um but yeah there's some really interesting stuff there cool so we're we're kind of over um anything you want to bring up um yeah you know this is the fourth of july and you know really think about independence freedom for those in the states and why we're celebrating this and i think this is why we did the episode just to kind of freestyle a little bit on questions around freedom and cognitive liberty and the drug war and this and that and um you know it's cool too you know we don't really get to share i mean we share beliefs a little bit but um it's fun to get on and just chat and get some stuff out there one-on-one with you joe so that's fun and um yeah it'd be awesome to see you guys on the other side with this online course that we're doing with the self-care and integration i really think about this concept of you know when you get the the phone or when you get the message hang up the phone um you know not necessarily that you don't pick it back up again but how do you work with it and actually not get lost in the beauty of everything because there's there's there's work that needs to get done in the world you know and um so how do we bring these insights into our life and actually make meaning out of it and move it forward and contribute to society and um you know thinking that psychedelics push you away from society i think it's opposite you know if you can have a really profound experience and understand where your place in society is then you know i think you're more willing to actually engage in the work you know it becomes more meaningful i don't know that's those were some thoughts so how about you yeah the american government was not legal they didn't ask the british government permission they just said this is based on what we understand what we're going to do um so you know think about where you're at in your life you know you don't you could be in china you could be in hong kong think think carefully about you know what you're asking for permission for what does that mean that you have to go ask for permission um and what can you do legally what are your legal alternatives like breathwork um also like what kyle said like you don't necessarily have to go back all the time like you know you go to a couple fish concerts and walk around the lot you're going to see some people that are you know obviously overusing you're going to see plenty of people that are using just fine but you're going to see a handful of folks that are clearly you know not with it they have almost marginalized themselves and made themselves ineffective as folks in this world and our class is really going to you know talk about how to avoid that kind of pitfall like how do you maybe take a break for a little while and have some sort of physical practice to get in your body and and and become a effective loving connected human again you know acid might make you feel that way but maybe it's not really the case that you're you're that way like maybe you're a jerk to the people at cvs when you go pick up your uh i don't know antifungal or whatever for your feet but i don't know how that came to mind i think i've been seeing pictures of people's feet at fish and it's gross um they should be wearing shoes uh and yeah so we just really want you to be safe we want the drug use world to be safer and let's just get to the next level let's make ignorance a little more obsolete you know start spreading the word stop you know using baths all it's unnecessarily if you really love them maybe you love them but i don't know maybe there's some stuff out there that's less dangerous and more fun um and will make you eat less people's faces or whatever go to jail less or whatever it is you know don't you guys have all seen those right the florida um that's that was like those are the videos i started watching after i watched this one one girl spaz out nobody google it i got intrigued by it like i'd really actually want to talk to somebody who's going to be like oh my god i'm going to be like oh my god i'm going to be like who's an expert with flaca and bath salt so if anybody out there knows an expert or is doing research on this stuff i would love to get him on the show because it's just it's fascinating like i don't know it's just crazy that a drug can do that to somebody i wonder if it's in that class of piperzines um well i isn't somebody at nyu trying to study this stuff i saw i really want to talk to him i have actually have a draft email um no i actually sent that guy an email um dr joseph something you did in nyu so yeah i've definitely emailed him to get him on the show so hopefully we can talk to him soon um i would i would love to yeah his whole study is new drugs like what are the new drugs why are you doing them like i feel like a lot of people are just doing new drugs just because it's hard harder to get safe drugs yeah or more safe safer drugs um yeah and you know i don't want to criticize people for doing these new drugs it's just that there's not much safety data and you have to factor that in like there's a substantial amount of safety data on lsd mushrooms mdma a lot of other drugs like mescaline pretty safe you have to know like the lethal dose ld 50 like look that up that's a lethal dose 50 where 50 of the sample die at that certain dose range it's not always a human they do it on so um usually mice yeah it doesn't translate one to one to humans but it's a good idea to do it on a human it's a good idea to do it on a human it's a good stepping off point like you can make better informed decisions about that um i think that's just what it's really about not judging people for doing that stuff but just for safety you know just yeah you know if you know something is is lethal at a certain dose i mean yeah this is your choice but you know i'd rather not see that happen to folks yeah you know it's bad for people individually it's bad for the movement and it's bad for legalization and you know decriminalization the um i got a this flame war on uh what was it it's probably like the acid math facebook group recently with somebody talking about um two five i n bomb and this you know they were unwilling to really listen about like the the toxicity of it relative to lsd and it's like the dosage is so much closer like the effective dose is so much closer to toxicity than with lsd like lsd it's like basically non-toxic you get like a pound of it and you're like oh my god i'm gonna die and you're fine but i i wouldn't do that your your your body will be fine i don't know about your mind uh so you know it's it's a really interesting thing like why despite evidence are you choosing to do something that's more toxic and even if it has very similar effects the answer is probably that they like it and that it's available or they don't know that it's also don't know yeah so you know share the knowledge guys like really talk about this stuff at festivals with your friends like bring up that there's resources out there like us um arrowhead bunch of like drug was at the drug story after care project tim coombs cools coombs yeah i really want to get him on the show too to talk about his oh the psychedelic experience site experiment yeah drug story is a different one but there's like these kind of arrowhead alternatives that are coming up to try to take a more data approach to drug research like contribute to this encyclopedia of drug experiences and as a result they'll be able to do kind of like rapid research on drugs subjective reporting and stuff like that so keep a lookout for that and we'll have them on the show hopefully in the near future to chat about you know their opinions on science and drugs yeah yeah and um you know i think also taking the course there will be a lot of great material and a lot of extra material and you know, we haven't been doing like a Patreon or anything like that. So it's also a really great way to support the show. If you've been listening for a while and you know, you want some premium content with some exclusive interviews and want to support this, um, that'd be awesome. And you can find the course on our site, psychedelicstoday.com. We're going to have a banner at the top of the page. You'll see a little thing for it and it should be right above the player. And there's also a button there for online courses or courses. So yeah, if you have any questions, hit us up psychedelics today, email at gmail.com. I think we have a contact form on the site. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. I hope that's it. No, we got on Pinterest. We're trying to figure Pinterest out. If you have any advice, let us know. If you have anything you guys want to contribute to the show, let us know, reach out. We're happy to have you guys help us a little bit. We, we do need some help with some social media stuff and, um, that'll allow us to bring better guests to you over time on a more regular basis. It'd be really fun if we could put this thing out two, three times a week, but, uh, it's going to take a little bit of time to get there. Yeah. Thank you all for tuning in and really look forward to hearing from you soon. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. in the next episode, we're going to talk to you a little bit more about some of the things that we're going to be doing in the next couple of weeks and then we're going to talk about some of the things that we're going to be doing in the next couple of weeks. Bye. Bye. you