Coffee with 10x: Let's Talk About Skills

What is a heat pump? How do I get the ground? Are the noiseies? Is it really sustainable? It is over 290. Hi, DuraPan in here. Got questions about home heating and making your home more comfortable and sustainable? Well, we've got answers. Working with Mitsubishi Electric, we have created the heating hub to answer all your questions. Eco-Dan from Mitsubishi Electric, trust the team behind your comfort. I did. Visit theheating hub.ie to find out more. Albiati Ideal Home Show on Friday where I'll be answering all your questions. In life, you've around 29,000 days. And those days can be full of what ifs? Like, what if it doesn't work? But what if it does? What if you really went after it? Because life is measured in those moments. So go after everyone. Talk to AIB today and let's see how we can turn your what ifs into what's next. AIB for the life you're after. Aledarsch-Banks PLC is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. What is a heat pump? Are they noisy? It is over 290. At Mitsubishi Electric, we have teamed up with renowned architect, Dermot Bannon, to help you cut through the noise. The bottom line is heat pumps are part of us all building a more sustainable future. Working with Mitsubishi Electric Ireland and their Eco-Dan range of heat pumps, we have created the heating hub to answer all your questions. I did. Visit the heating hub.ie to find out more. I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinjone show. Hey, Dylan Thomas. Doing well, man. Thanks for hosting me as always. Of course. I'm going to start something new here. Don't really know. Have an idea of how many episodes you have in mind for this, but this is a pretty big topic and a requested topic. So, Operation Gladio. Yeah, I suggest we play it by ear, figuratively and literally, and see how long it takes us to cover the material. And not just what we consider a more than adequate capacity, but that the subs, like we want to hear about. Gladio is one of these misunderstood things. There was a great deal of brutality of a particular sort. I mean, the Cold War was neither-- with the condition of neither war nor peace. So even behind the verbal lines of peace and divided Europe, there was a certain callousness that bled into contemplation of what was not just necessary, but also reasonable. You know, the moral metric shifted. OK. I mean, obviously in Southeast Asia, what was very much late bearer was that, you know, OK, the face of modern warfare very much reduces attrition to a subjective goal. You know, that must be coded in the most concrete terms possible. And studied as to, you know, the impactfulness on victory odds. You know, that quite literally the manufacture of human corpses, facilitates or does not facilitate. But again, to, you know, there were like peace didn't really reign anywhere in the Cold War that was a contested battle space. And obviously Europe proper, you know, the inner German border west, you know, thank God that didn't become an active battle space, but I'm always citing like William Odom, anyone who served and was deployed there, you know, on either side would relay that like these were not peace conditions that felt like being in war. You know, it was not remotely like any other, you know, peace time posting. And people look at something like Operation Gladiow. They, it's a gross affront, I guess, you know, not just to their, not just their, they're kind of like moral conceptual horizon, just in absolute terms. But the idea that this kind of thing would be carried out in our conditions of peace is just like a bondable to, a bondable to them. And interestingly, it's lumped in with, the Phoenix program, which obviously did what, what I think was like, you know, a Mac Vsauge operation. And Mac Vsauge was, it was very adjacent CIA in those days. It was a Mac Vsauge and, and you basically, it's holding this operation. You know, they, they constituted, you know, direct action, targeting of discrete personages who constituted the NLF infrastructure, you know, because you're fighting a non-state act, they're obviously the human beings are the infrastructure of your ops. Okay, but, you know, people discussed it during, obviously, like the, the, the gates committee hearings, they kind of killed the CIA and people talk about it today, like, oh, this, what, what horrible overreach, it's unbelievable, America, and Americans could do something like this. Which is really kind of reposterous, man, because that, by definition, you know, not just in asymmetrical war, but an ideological war in a Cold War battle space, you know, whereby, on top of everything else, you know, there's this kind of profound difference between combatants, you know, culturally, racially, you know, in every other way, okay. I mean, if you come as no surprise anybody, and I don't want to go too far field, but yes, there were instances of corruption within the Phoenix program, you know, some, some army, the army of the Republic of Vietnam, like, intelligence officer, like, unmanned, some guy, like, carrying out his wife, and this guy ended up on the list, then ended up getting whacked, and that's horrible, and it's indefensible. But in absolute terms, you know, presuming a basic integrity of the officers and, and, and CEOs involved, and I believe it was exclusively officers and CEOs, and particularly in those days, the special forces, that was a pretty rigidly maintained schema. You know, I had it that, where it was implemented as intended, not only was it highly effective in my opinion, but it was far, far, far, far more, just a five one moral terms, you know, then deploying arc light raids, you know, that dropped 500 pound bombs on, you know, and women and kids and old people, you know, in middle of a race pitty. But, you know, so when people talk about, gladi, oh, is it to discuss something, you know, something like a real life horror film, you should look at it in those terms that it's that for mentions, you know, and, or you consider the same man as people do, who suggests like the penitentiary regime, like the distilled essence of evil, is being this kind of bogeyman, this conceptual bogeyman, for whatever reason, I speculate there's some seminal text, whether it's by Howard Zan or Chomsky, and I really, Chomsky's done some worthwhile things, but I think even his most ardent defenders, at least, you know, who are tuned into your content would agree with me that, you know, his, his objectivity is compromised by these deeply, I, are you almost theologically felt conceptual biases, but there's numbers, there's a number of things going on with gladi, okay, first of all, they told war was a totally abnormal conflict, you know, I'm always making the point again and again, one of the reasons is that's who we fool hearty, you know, whether it's Lindsey Graham or whether it's, you know, the kind of pitiful, you know, soon before President Biden, talking about like, you know, Putin, not Russia, Putin, like he's not gonna stop in Ukraine, he's gonna want to pull in like this, like, like, this idea that states, you know, like madman, just kind of somehow by accident, a fate or by guy, I'm ruthless in this, you know, capture, apparatus of space and proceed like capture land, like somehow like the more like, if you collect enough fertile women and soil, they can grow like, soil gum or something like you win, like I even know what their notion is, but even that was absolutely lessons really even by the Second World War saved for the fact of the need of for Germany or Japan or one of the disadvantaged kind of baddies when I say disadvantaged I mean these are the power potential to you know become a super power you know yes gross rom and and is the is the basis of pretty one military challenges which become synonymous in in in discrete and and totally unusual ways in such conditions but also like like Laban's rom even if you totally reject outright you know the kind of national socialist view of of of blutes and in Ross and everything else I mean that that's there that was the 20th century was you know essentially it was it was the grand clash of it was the grand clash of civilizations to determine like what globalism would be okay so what's the Cold War set in earnest you know your your your ops you were fighting your ops because they'd become the standard bearers of of of an idea and America was always kind of returning the serve to the communists because that both that that conceptual environment as well as you know what military and paratons were prioritized within that paradigm you know that it was it was the it was the it was the Warsaw Pact and there adjacent elements you know who are the ones pursuing the revolutionary imperative some mean that was the problem and that was one that was one of George Kennen's points you know in in the long memo or whatever you it's it's not that you know we we've got to challenge the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact for every inch of ground it said we got to put ourselves in the position where we're not simply reacting and returning the serve you know no how do you do that if again your your ops of the standard bearers of an idea you know and really your victory metric to accomplish global domination destroy all competing ideologies you know assimilate people into this world society essentially you know that was envisioned by the Nuremberg you know ideology but you know obviously the Soviet Union was the kind of core of the United States and the Soviet Union and totally falling apart so any future victory scenario would entail the United States basically inheriting the mantle of what was envisioned you know by the Nuremberg ideological program but the way that you know the way that you win that is by eradicating the enemy idea and in under condition the active war that constitutes the eradication of humans who are the standard bearers of you know the enemy idea such that you know ongoing variety of criteria or perhaps even just one singular distinctively resilient criteria that they can't be reeducated or somehow like assimilated into a new paradigm okay obviously this is implications for you know the the absolute emity between the the Reich and European jewelry such that European jewelry who was a self conscious self identified political actor but I that's a bit outside the scope of what we're talking about but there's complications that were emergent here that must be considered within those realities that just explicated okay and this is very important now interestingly and perhaps this won't won't surprise anybody you know really the pioneers of political warfare as you know from the side of you know the colonialist power or kind of perspective of you know the more powerful combatant or if you will you know the the party can bend who like America who is you know perpetually returning the serve when I'm for the side of the act you know the United Kingdom really kind of perfected what became asymmetrical warfare doctrine and political warfare doctrine okay um we're talking about operation banner and how Frank Kitson you know Northern Ireland especially going to our viewing of resurrection man Frank Kitson one of his uh I mean basically the key takeaway from his kind of operational theory if it can be distilled down to one kind of core principle on how to wage war against an insurgency you've got to create a counter game but you've got to do this in some ways basically organic okay you know you've got to work with what the Germans call the mentioned material that's on the ground you've got to sort of mold them and their political and military conceptual horizon around what's instinctively already presence you know and you've got to sort of transform those energies into something that's you know in life you've around 29,000 days and those days can be full of what ifs like what if it doesn't work but what if it does what if you really went after it because life is measured in those moments so go after everyone talk to AIB today and let's see how we can turn your what ifs into what's next AIB for the life you're after Aladar Spence PLC is regulated by the central bank of Ireland what is a heat pump how do I get the ground is it really sustainable it is over 290 at Mitsubishi Electric we have teamed up with renowned architect Dermott Bannon to help you cut through the noise the bottom line is heat pumps are part of us all building a more sustainable future working with Mitsubishi Electric Ireland and their eco-dance range of heat pumps we have created the heating hope to answer all your questions eco-dance from Mitsubishi Electric trust the team behind your comfort I did visit the heating hub dot i e to find out more in life you've around 29,000 days and those days can be full of what ifs like what if it doesn't work but what if it does what if you really went after it because life is measured in those moments so go after everyone talk to AIB today and let's see how we can turn your what ifs into what's next AIB for the life you're after ala dors bans plc is regulated by the central bank of Ireland deadlier more efficient more military with the capital m you know and more workable in in integrated command capacity you know then would just kind of be there you know like auto pathonically or whatever and of course kids and you know despite the fact that he was only the commander on the ground in in an operation ban on the earth and Ireland for about two or three years that conflict model endured the duration of hostilities and I've made the point again and again that you know when when the provisional IRA and adjacent republican armed groupings and others would insist that there was formal formal collusion underway between the British security elements and loyalists that was true okay now that doesn't mean that you know Frank kitson got together and hired some mercenary types and so you're now the old surveillance here for us you know or you're now ready and commando it was nothing like that like what they did was they looked at what they looked at what was already developing on the ground you know and you know the the sectarian war on the street were like little battle lines were being established between you know sectarian living like between living spaces based on sectarian criteria and you had these malicious just spontaneously forming you know so they began approaching you know guys like Gusty Spence, you know who Was indispensable and um the The recreation of the Ulster volunteer force in 1966 Spence and Cernin combat and grease of the British Army Okay, um the uvf was what was kind of the stir-up of the royalism You know the uda was this kind of like a mass vigilante movement which wasn't outlawed in 1902, but uff which was technically like the direct action wing Um that was very very very much cultivated by British intelligence and military elements, okay? and by by 1993 Loyalists were outkilling the IRA You know suddenly like it just became very very good at targeting people who were either um You know I or uh provisional IRA members or uh, uh, you know It's shinfane representatives or social democrats. They wanted dead for whatever reason like suddenly loyalists became very very good at what they did Okay, I'm in no means like it's saying like what they did was good, but when the vogue rationality You know and that um Kitsons old point was look You know and he was comparing in punitive terms with the British students the Americans and the Germans he's like you know You don't you don't bring was just more and more firepower to bear you know against uh Against an insurgency, you know, you're you're gonna kill a whole lot of people You know many of whom are you know women kids old people and just you know Other people who are you know clearly non combatants and you're probably gonna you're probably gonna create more insurgency than you annihilate but also There's gotta be a kind of like a menu wet like ridiculousness sounds between forces under arms You know for them to For one's house of conduct is made for them to remain engaged and actually you know push for victory You know by But by you'll buy what you're killing the enemy You know um If you if you sick your counter gang loose on like this gang of like mile-mow rebels If you lose like the uvf on the pyrr a When they make a Contact they're gonna fight it out and slaughter each other in a way that wouldn't happen if you know You you know you you you roll you roll crusader tanks into the streets when the irate doesn't anything you don't like You know though disappear literally into the ether And then the like a lot of satchel charge into like the turret hatch You know like one of your when one of your people like pops us head out for a smoke you know And then something's gonna understated Needed a mirror what opt for is in order to annihilate him um In kind of like the post conventional Westphalian landscape now What was gladio and how does that have to do with like anything i was just talking about well Around 1952 American the UK this is when they became really truly kind of like fully indexed In military terms not not not just at the operational and kind of command and control level and and drilling with one another you know like In the inner German border you know um be at the north German north German planes Which is primarily the british that Benelux Stage responsibility and like the folky gap or just primarily american armored cavalry's Area of operation, but they like like i can septal indexing like toger root and i believe a lot of this owed to the fact that by like January 52 Um, obviously both you know a american Forces as well as you know the british army had been engaged you know in a very brutal conflict in Korea Okay, um the learning curve was expanding Um, and all kinds of ways relating to the study of war Okay, um They're developed as need within the minds of You know military analyst types on the civilian side and and kind of like think tank whisk kids or you pick with us in the cold war We've talked about but also um you know military officers uh, uh, you know from from from company level upward you know like we need We needed to develop some kind of tactical strategic imperatives You know related asymmetrical warfare that allows you know the the realization of you know kind of like the full spectrum of our Of our killing power But again without um With without allowing politics to creep into decision-making You know in a way that you know it's kind of proven fatal and in some Key instances These are either managerial state You know, like you said to go on Algeria like first and foremost i mean i think the goll is not it i don't think a highly of them But just a purely objective terms i mean the one example but so In 1952 and especially you have to the experience of fighting the people's liberation army at China you know And this this this kind of like andless ability of them to absorb casualties you know um And utilize combined arms with Soviet help and there's a lot of Soviet pilots like sorties over Korea And kind of horrifyingly a a number of american POWs ended up in the Soviet Union and never returned what Because it may um You know it became clear that When war comes and uh mind you this was you know uh this was Long before a strategic parry existed Between um you know states and Warsaw packed But i mean it was also before the It's it was also unlike man man bombers or You know the the zenith of Of kind of strategic nuclear platforms But um the understanding was in basically every scenario game that You know the Warsaw Packs is gonna overrun Europe They're gonna smash that the national vokes army um Which emerged later but in 1952 uh a a combination of uh vokes two eight psi who were uh These German army and all but name and grew with Soviet forces in Germany We're responsible for the operational sector about to describe Under 56 it became the national vokes armies domain They were gonna smash through um The inner German border you know Which at time the at the time the Berlin Wall wasn't there after the Berlin Wall was created interestingly There are these like weak points where like charges could like blow holes You know so that the national vokes army gets stormed through with armor but be as it may The understanding that was in war came when it's gone. It's gone This week's new wigig at home store and more all lightweight luggage is all half price But better hurry because when all our half price lightweight luggage is gone It's gone also all pillows are still half price and all rat on garden furniture is still one third off But when our pillows and rat on garden furniture wigigs are gone they're definitely gone Drop by your local home store and more visit us online at home store and more dot i e Home store and more a happy home Soak up the sun this summer at home store and more from stylish garden furniture to sizzling barbecues twinkling solar lights and colorful garden decor stylish parasols and spacious gazeboes all your sunny day heroes A welcoming smile as you walk through the door more choice and more savings. We're famous for Drop by your local home store and more or shop online at home store and more dot i e Home store and more happy home The dance walk books are me um They're gonna store in west Berlin Well um, you know the worst I packed overshoots uh Berlin um Assaults uh Across the north German plain Snares are to the folded gap almost certainly utilizing chemical weapons and possibly tapping the nuclear weapons of necessary and um NATO at best get hold out for 72 hours You know until um Until the Soviet army reaches the Rhine And then even if uh NATO has the capacity to reconstitute It's not gonna have the forces in being in order to prevent a further Soviet push, you don't think the land is ocean. Okay, so you're looking at a situation where, okay. And in these days, mind you, the catalyst changed for why this was considered in terms almost exclusively of conventional war fighting, save again for the tactical deployment of chemical and nuclear weapons. And this endured 30 years later, but for very different reasons, and we'll get into that. But the fact is, and basically, it's an basically conventional fight, NATO is gonna be overrun by the massive superiority of forces in being by Warsaw Pact. Okay, the only hope really of liberating the continents, in these cases, would be some sort of infrastructure, infrastructure, in situ that can be activated, you know, in order to generate an insurgency, like a preexisting insurgency basically. And this had never really been attempted before, unless you count the Vietcong, but it's kind of a different thing. But, you know, the understanding was that men were selected for designated, you know, to be stay behind elements. All the way up to, I believe, the Italian level. Arms, casheys were hidden, escape, rapproprepared, clinically loyal civilians were recruited, who in turn developed their own, like social infrastructure around what was to become the core mission in event of a Soviet conquest. Client, the truly clandestine cells were established, who made contact with one another, but didn't even make contact with each other's respective handlers, you know, or with the above board, but still highly secret, gladiode designated elements. And this was largely devised, by the United Kingdom, what was, what during World War II, what came to be called the United Kingdom's special operations executive. Okay, gladiode was largely created with the experience and involvement of former SOE officers. I had the pleasure, a man who was a dear friend of my family and who was actually, one of the reasons I've won the Holy University is because he taught there. His name was, same old Sarkisian. As he might have believed, he was Armenian, his parents were Armenian immigrants. He was in the special forces. He was in a heavy action in Korea in the infantry. And he was one of the first true green Marines, to pass the Q-Course and get the green Marine. And why they recruit him, it wasn't just because he was an excellent comment soldier, it's because he was Armenian. He could stay behind and blend in. And the earliest, like special forces became something somewhat different, or it included that mission, as well as like many other adjacent ones, it's time went on. But that really is the birth of special forces. It's very much a cold war creature. I'm not saying that's bad or something. I actually think I already spoke for forces. It doesn't allow better shape these days. Then I think SOE has got a lot of problems. But I don't want to upset that our friends were military guys. And they, I mean, like our literal friends of ours, like that's how they're like Randall's. And they know me, they know I hold them in tremendous respects. But at the point being, it was very much, it was just being very seriously. Not only was, like for example, like my mentor and family friend, the Syracusean, like not only was he an Armenian immigrant stuck, but the dialectical inflection, he could affect that properly to fit in with locals. This was very, very sophisticated and operational term, especially for the time. Now something interesting happened as always developed. And the center of gladio, because of the gladio was Italy. Okay, now, why Italy? You know, Italy, I maintain that the real, it was the Marshall plan. It wasn't just, it wasn't what Stalin said and just kind of bind the Buddhist Republic to American debt or whatever. Like, yeah, I mean, that was an added benefit, but I mean, the Buddhist Republic was done. I mean, they were, they were being more in that plan out of existence. Like Italy in the other hand, just geostrategically, as well as in sheer economic terms for, you know, a European zone of commerce and industry, you know, they were incredibly important. Okay, Italy had to be brought into NATO. Italy also had to be repaired from the devastation it had suffered, you know, and throughout the 50s and 60s, you know, Italy ended up becoming, I think, for a time, you know, like the fifth largest economy in the world, you know, Italy also, it never underwent a de-notsification process. It, there was still a very active Communist party there, you know, that didn't just participate in challenge for seats, but they ensue it to themselves in the coalition governments regularly, you know. And on the other side, you had openly fascist and national socialist parties that were rapidly, they weren't just rapidly anti-communist, they were rapidly anti-Soviet. They still viewed the Soviet Union like as their ops. Okay, and I maintain, you know, the big, or maybe you don't know, I mean, you're a relearned guy, but some of this stuff is trivia. You know, Yaki had a huge falling out with Mosley, and Mosley refused the, the publishing period through the union movement brand, because Mosley was like an arch-cold warrior, you know, like 110%. And a lot of people are like, well, he was trying to find his way back to respectability and vertus political life. I don't even have to say case. I think he really believed that, okay. - Well, anybody who knows, anybody who knows what Mosley went through in the next, you know, 15 to 20 years knows that he, he knew he wasn't getting back into the mainstream of politics. - Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous. Like he was saying, I think he's gonna find minister or something, I mean, like, what the fuck are people thinking? What it's a, - Yeah, there's video on YouTube of him in like 1962 going into some British town to talk, and there are people chasing him trying to beat him. - Oh yeah, it's a bit, yeah. It's a preposterous claim, and like, who's he trying to impress? And once like Mosley, even in the interwar years, like, I mean, Mosley did his own thing. He was, he indexed very much with Hitler, but at the point he disagreed with Hitler on. He was like open about it. I mean, like any, yeah, he, one of the reasons he's a hero of mine is very like free thinking man. But so Italy being this back to where we were, Italy being, Italy being ground zero of a gladio again. It wasn't just because the political, the internal political situation, you know, they need to bring Italy back into the fold of Europe or into an interest penumbra. You know, what was then the European colon steel community and you know, and to bring it up the snuff is, as a real, as a real, real, you know, regional power into itself. But also, you had in Gladiol was you had you had a whole lot of very fit, very committed fascist men of military age who had experience. You know what I mean, these, this is nothing kind of duty that just regular guys are going to sign on for, you know, even if they're busy patriotic and I come in this, like you need, like you need basically like fascist jihadi for something like this, okay? You know, and it's also too, you know, how do you recruit men for these roles? You don't just like put an ad out, you know, and like the them equivalents of, you know, Craigslist or something, you know, like as it was in 2006, you know, you know, just, you know, you know, even news, you know, just say like, you know, we're building a state behind fascist army, you know, would you like to be part of it? You know, they had to like, you know, NATO intelligence as well as, you know, like the NATO's got a commanding control element, which would have been at that point, Supreme Allied command in Europe. They had to basically, which is why I brought up, you know, Kis in the point of counteringings, they basically had to index with, you know, the fascist resistance that still existed there, and these national socialist guys who never changed their stripes, and who were very, very active, you know, you basically had indexed with them and when some kind of trust sell them on the merits of the mission and you know, convinced them to essentially start, start, start training for this, you know, what was that a very like real contingency, and to organize these people into cells, you know, like a cell structure that's actually workable that allows them, you know, to be kind of abituated to their, the command structure of, of whatever, I don't know the four levels would have been exactly, but you know, whatever arm element they were part of, but also it got them abituated, it drilling, with one each other with another, and all the, all the kind of psychosocial imperatives that one needs to cultivate, if you're going to send, you know, what is called the military sociology, a primary group of men, you know, into action, but a lot of this, you know, a lot of people didn't know about any of this, I mean, people like my dad did, but like, unless you're my dad, so secret squirrel, but even if they should know about certain things that other people didn't, but in general, it really didn't know about the scope, breadth, and purpose, and gladio until about October 1990, okay, and that was very interesting, because basically like right about a year after the interim in border class, a lot of these, a lot of these, a lot of these kinds of like deep dark scripts of the cold war, and we're gonna leave that way, we're just kind of like things that had been very eyes-only, like somebody came to light, I think the, I think it's the people that were in control, of a lot of this data, they knew that this was very, very rapidly, you know, going to be kind of censored and taking out a circulation, which is exactly what happened, so yeah, this sentence of like it's an hour and never, now, so in October 1990, I'm gonna butcher this name, and I'm so sorry, but a Julio and Dratty, he issued for this series of revelations relating to the internal situation, like of the Western block, like pretty much from, you know, the emergence in NATO, and especially kind of, this starting point was, you know, mid-Korean war, like when gladio first became kind of, you know, became more than just sort of, you know, like an abstract, you know, model bandied about it, I'm gonna like work college types, um, Julio and Dratty, um, I think it, he was something of like an Italian ad in that word, man, but not quite, um, I think it was, I think it was far more of a compelling person, I don't mean that negatively, but he, my point is that he wasn't even considering the Italian situation, he wasn't, he wasn't usual for a post, post, or European executive, um, and Dratty, he was the 41st prime minister of Italy, um, he served in seven governments, um, 72, 73, 76, 79, 1980, 92, he was really, and he was the leader of the primary organizer of the Christian Democrats from the earliest days, and here's something people don't understand, the Christian Democrats in Europe, they're not just like the Republicans or the Tories, they were basically the Vatican party, um, in Italy, to a lesser degree in Germany, like after World War II, okay, they were genuinely conservative, they were socially right wing, they had a very strong identification with the Catholic Church and, and Catholic, what, what, what, what, what, what, Alistair Magandir, I guess we call it, Virtue Ethics, although I'm sure they had, I'm not Catholic, and I'm not really Italian, I'm sure they had different sources to draw upon, but, um, my point being the Christian Democrats, they, um, they, uh, they're, they're, they're heritage probably had more to do, uh, with, um, you know, the kind of political culture, one had an Austria, any inner warriors, than it did, you know, with, with somebody like, uh, like, um, you know, like, uh, like, like, like, like, like, hand hour, okay, for example, much as like I said, there, there were some basic similarities, and, um, and Droddy had an interesting, uh, perspective. As he, he's viewed these days as probably the most powerful and prominent, like, political, like executive political figure of, uh, of the Italian First Republic, you know, since, you know, since 1945, basically, okay, um, and I'm going so deep into his, uh, biography, because it's essential to understanding gladio, okay, and you'll see why, or like, what I mean in a minute, um, he begins a prodigy of a man named, L. C. Digus Fairy, um, Gosparian became a member of the parliament of, uh, Trentino, which was a, uh, part of the Austrian, uh, Reichs, that it was one of these, uh, it was one of these Italian territories that was semi-autonomous, but was under the sovereignty of the Habsburg Empire, okay, um, because Sparrow began, it's, began the First World War as, as puttically neutral, um, he sympathized very, very strongly with Pope Benedict, um, and said basically, like, you know, if you're, if you're a good Catholic and, you know, like a good Italian, you know, you're, you're gonna go buy, you know, Pope Benedict's, uh, ultimately, I'm saying what, what are ultimately unsuccessful, you know, like, but, um, very well-intentioned, and recently, you're, ever distorts peace, um, Carl Iferst of Austria, um, was another figure very much kind of like index of this perspective, who, uh, who, um, you know, who, uh, who Gospari saw, you know, I'd eye with, um, but Gospari, it's time when I'm being somewhat radicalized, okay, um, in 1919, he was another founder of what became the Italian People's Party, along with Luigi Sturzo. He served as a deputy in the Italian parliament for a few years, from 21 to 24, which is obviously, you know, the fascist, the presidency was 1922. Um, he was enthusiastic about the support of his party, the PPI, and, uh, the first, uh, government, [BLANK_AUDIO] that first Cavalry on Mussolini because the way he viewed it was that, you know, this is what we need to stand against the Bolshevism because Bolshevism is going to destroy the Catholic Church and they're already, you know, it's like they're doing it to the Orthodox Church and he wasn't wrong. You know, and Mussolini's, Mussolini's relationship with Catholicism was complicated. It was kind of like Charles Moross, okay, and it's hard for, like, first of all, I don't believe Mussolini was an atheist, even though he wasn't, you know, God fearing in the sense we're talking about, but it's, when I said, we want to put themselves in, you know, kind of of a 20th century modernist perspective, especially when shaped by the Great War and, you know, they kind of, it's certainly humanizing paradigms, like they're in, all of which seem to mirror each other and some sort of like grand constellation tailored to Rob man's ability to live both historically and as a discrete personality. It's not just like Marx's Pablin or something. It's, you know, they're very much the core of the European right, like the true right, like thought in these terms. But as, as Mussolini's graph kind of came absolute and unlike Hitler, who, you know, was a huge or tremendous aspect of his ascendancy, oh, the, you know, the strategic use of plebiscites. And Mussolini was much more, there's only called a personality on Mussolini and they're, they definitely was like, you know, from the center right to the truly fascist, you know, I, I, Mussolini had had a very strong mandate for a 20th century executive, but he was prone to almost like quasi-lenonist, you know, sort of utterances that, then, that had his force just became the law. You know, he was Mussolini's fundamental, he, uh, fundamental, um, altered the structural balance of power between the executive and, um, and, um, in the part and, and, and, and the electoral system itself, as well as the parliament, which is largely becoming somewhat gilded anyway, by the Assyrbal law, which basically guaranteed, like the National Fascist Party, you know, like a certain percentage of cabinet seats, okay. So, um, it essentially became a one-party state without, um, you know, um, something like the Enabling Act, the Finessa, and for the record too, and this was a similar to the written series, or episode, but, um, you know, Hitler didn't, uh, Hitler didn't, um, take the oath of office as, as consular, you know, and then, um, or even later after you, after you, after you enabling act, you know, when he became a consular and inferior of the German Reich, he didn't, um, he didn't have something to clear that, like, you know, now, like, you know, or in the state, or all, you know, or all apparatus of the party, you know, um, and the internal police apparatus was very directly, um, co-opted by National Socialists and became an organ of the party, which is interesting enough itself. But other than that, um, that's one of the reasons there was this kind of agonistic pluralism in the Third Reich, where, in some ways, people didn't, couldn't quite grasp, like, where, you know, it's sort of like the state bureaucracy stopped, and the party bureaucracy began, or you had, you, you had, um, oriented government that literally had, like, an identical mandate, you know, but one was, you know, like, a branch to the SD, which was the counterlaw of the SS, like, another was, you know, um, like, uh, an internal security department that was, um, you know, tied to the ab there, you know, which had actually no, like, accountability to the same chain of command. But, um, the, uh, what ultimately happened was, uh, these kinds of, these kinds of, like, reform is by the, by bully, pulpit flexing, like, figuratively and literally, um, this led to, this led to a great deal of turmoil in the early years of, uh, the national fascist party, and it's, and it's single party rule. Um, does a great deal of violence? Um, against other parties, which refuse to accept, uh, you know, the assurable law and it's just going to refuse to accept, you know, it'll do chase, this sort of self-appointed mandate. Um, this caused the PPI to, uh, the, the, the fracture. Um, dig a spherry became, uh, he remained on as, uh, secretary of, uh, of the anti-fascist faction that remained, um, until, November 20, you know, November, November 20, just until that, until November, 1926, you know, in a true climate, it kind of over violence and intimidation became the norm. You know, the, the PPI was, it was, it was, it was formally dissolved. You know, um, the spherry of the self was arrested in March of, uh, 27. He did four years in prison. The Vatican negotiated his release, you know, which again, um, as the indexing, um, and the relationship between the Vatican and, uh, the Christian Democrats and their precursors, um, that's really important, you know, to understanding the politics, the inner warriors, and the really cold war. But, um, you know, he was, uh, he was, uh, after his release in, um, 1980, he was basically unpersoned. You know, he did only finding employment. He, he was in serious financial difficulties. Um, his, uh, some of his church contacts, you know, security and job, um, as a cataloger in the Vatican library, which probably saved his life. And that's where he spent the next, the next 14 years until, uh, until the collapse of the, of, uh, the Kingdom of Italy. I mean, the, the rumstate in 43, I mean, the rumstate of the Salar Republic endured it. But, um, you know, it's, uh, the big contribution of Gospari, um, one of the major international, um, one of the major international newspapers, which in those days, a political news free, a new political newspaper having international circulation was a big deal. He wrote a column where, uh, and this was in, this was in 1934. I mean, when he had absolutely no love for the national fad just party. But, uh, he, uh, he celebrated the feet of the, the social Democrats in, uh, in Austria, we claimed were, you know, on a, on a mission of decrystionizing Austria and, uh, you know, that they were a covert allies of the Bolsheviks. Any, he's seen declared to know in certain terms that the German church, that we, you know, in Italy, we should follow example of the, uh, the German headluck church, you know, and we should prefer in knowing certain terms, you know, national socialism to Bolshevism. You know, like Bolshevism is our, is the mortal enemy of Christ and of the Catholic Church. So this is, uh, you know, these, these alliances are more complicated than people will, you know, it's, um, during, uh, during the lower two, um, this is one of the spirit is formally established the, the Christian Democrats. and I think it's clear to me something writing on the wall that's on you know the X is going to lose the war to what appears to be you know a handful of coderies we trusted the SCM added to a program for the new Christian Democrat party and it was titled quite literally you know ideas for reconstruction okay the expiry from that point on you know he was like the youngest he was the undisputed kind of hauncho not as the Christian Democrats which were a new sort of consolation of of a political values contained in one you know pretty pretty autocratic and well-managed party but they ended up dominating parliament for decades you know and they were basically right wing I mean I I don't mean that in 20% of terms I mean they were very much like a nationalist Catholic you know very you know very pro very very patriotic you know like racialism didn't feature into their equation to the same degree that it did and does some continental tendencies but this wasn't genuine like right wing tendency okay and when the Southern Italy was conquered by the Allies the expiry became basically like the main representatives of the Christian Democrats and what became known as the national liberation community or the national the national liberation committee like dissident elements that you know we're all kind of jockeying from you know pays ornage by the Allies and you know who would give them the mandate and you know the security elements in order to in order to do and to do with themselves as you know the prominent like cadre or party like ruling the country it's a the very first became a minister without portfolio the government led by Ivan Benome later in Faritio Perry's cabinet you can give the minister a foreign affairs and that's kind of when that's kind of on these ideas even cultivating like got wide sort of circulation you know and in my opinion he was always a more kind of thoughtful individual than Adam now where I think of Adam now where it's kind of like a great a real horse trader and like literally like an incredibly skilled politician but there was there wasn't a real vision there like good or bad I mean there's a hunt for it all it's something to say about now I'm not going to repeat it was like YouTube fire us or something but I have to be fair I compared to some possibilities I I had never looks pretty good in Gospari I think was positive we hear Ro I'm considering a lot of a lot of you know the challenges he was facing quite literally not just the you know his soul and sanity but his life and limb finally Gospari from 45 to 53 he was prime minister a successive Christian Democrat like government now if you know any of our telling politics that's that's like absurd longevity okay that's like that's that's basically a British prime minister like ruling for like you know like 18 years okay like I'm not gonna start the Italian this is like a fact what this you know this I really was declared a republic you know immediately they signed a peace treaty like a phone peace with the other 47 they they were they were one of your original NATO members in 49 you know and again Gospari and the Christian Democrat delegation they actively courted the United States you know and again I don't I don't buy into the mythology of like oh the Marshall plan just like created magic money and like made made Europe like rich again this that's complete nonsense but there were infrastructural needs and there was a need for capital in key sectors in order for Europe to be able to like like realize it's great power of potential and the Marshall plan when it's uh when it's capital um in flow was were truly targeted in a way that indexed with necessary developmental schemes it was highly effective um and um he he lobbied very very hard for for participation of the Marshall plan the like the the Marshall plan I get is really did the in the case of Italy I I don't like the term you know like economic miracle like the Spanish miracle or so free and miracle um you know because it's it's just another ever kind of like highest conscious or not so like make a economics this like obscure thing but it act like it's literally some kind of magic and it doesn't know the you know the the human ability to um you know to literally like build the equity you know from uh from the raw stuff of the capital again quite literally and um you know the uh the Marshall plan itself did not revive Europe but at the same time again um the European colonist theal community was essential um and um you know the disparities like like pushing to make this you know a policy priority and you know making it an unconditional um imperative you know for the government was essential um when uh when he did take uh what when he did is become prime minister that first time succeeding through to a parry he inherited a coalition that included both Italian Communist Party and Italian Socialist Party um delegates along with uh along with other like smaller parties that were anomaly independent or you know head names you know like the you know like a liberal Republican party or the action party but you know some of which had very much you know were recognized that Jay's and if not you know I would like to say that the proxies um to um to this very is credit um his deputy prime minister palmiro togliaudi um did cooperate and um you know um you know the experts attempts to soften the terms of impending L.I.P.s treaty um with Italy you know again you know seeing very much what was being done to Germany um this was um this this is right you know him uh lobbying so heavily and so over you publicly for relief through and cooperation therein the European recovery program you know which was the Italian-Lanth and Marshall Plan um you know this this this was opposed will separately by the Communist but um um this very did manage to hold this you know initial prime ministers ship together despite all I just especially you can sit or you know the the fact that he was dealing with the cabinet has very much stuff but that was very much stocked by ops um the uh it was under the spares watch that Italy would you know the the one thing we're going to significant referendum on his watch Yeah Italy was the remain a monarchy or become a republic. You know when he getting that I believe very much was was a the spirit like Machiavillian streak. You know like I said like he Like Frank was redeemed post-World. I was very obviously the far more I had a double figure One of the ways that they were able to you know kind of bring the Vatican into the fold um and not just administrative capacities and in terms of uh insinuating a kind of moral legitimacy which you know carried a lot of cash in those days um but also uh it's uh allowed It allowed for a certain freedom of movement and global politics vis-a-vis what you know other countries would respond to that they wouldn't have you know if italy was merely you know a client regime in the United States with um all the trappings there and including you know they're stripping away of the Roman Church from you know not just uh authority and in government and administration but also in um national life um It's uh he was chief of the Italian delegation at the Woolworth's who peace conference um in Paris uh you know he remained a harshly critical of the sanctions um that remained on uh and post on italy um only the various intrigues and some of which were just kind of born of vengeance driven sensibilities especially considering that you know Italian leadership was not going to be placed on trial or you know or subject to these kinds of show trial homicides under um auspices of you know justice but uh he did gain very strong concessions from the allies that guaranteed Italian sovereignty um particularly as uh regarded uh the Balkans some of the eastern border territory was lost you go slavia but uh the free territory of trees was divided between the two states and obviously you know natal meaning at that point just america like you know signed on as the guaranteeer of um of these uh borders now back to and drottie um again this is important to understand and i'm not boring we did but um let me throw the hallium real my senior moments back to and drottie um and drottie had achieved a cabinet rank at a very young age um and by the time by by the end of his ten year heed he'd occupied virtual everyday major office of the postwar Italian state um and he again was seen as quite literally like the unofficial liaison with the Vatican you know um inform policy terms and drottie you know very much the progeny of spary you know he guided the european unions like italy within kind of the what the ec him the EU um and drottie guided italy's um integration into what and fascinatingly to me if you know what my kind of research interests are and if you kind of understand the nuances of what gladio was to the men who staffed it which was something very different than the men who conceived of it they wanted to utilize it for um strategic purposes uh you know that we're fairly transparent um and drottie pursued uh close relations with the Arab world um you know when he uh he had a strong strong following not just in italy but uh especially through catholic year up but also like you know throughout his utility throughout the totality of what was becoming uh you know the bergantan ec you um he'd substantially mediated corruption um he don't just seen the transformation of the country from you know a basically world country and literally the world's fifth largest economy that's totally insane that's only comparable i think uh like south pariah went from having an economic profile comparable that it berkina fossil to like being like the number nine world economy like granted there was like massive subsidies and infrastructural aid you know that was kind of like a reward for you know contributing so very much and not not just in um not just in in in treasure but in blood you know to the Vietnam war but um it's truly remarkable um to consider especially when it it's something that just seems like impossible today to me man you know like um undercurrent historical conditions but um the uh his uh he was a huge uh and drawdy's um ops claim that he was a new liberal that's kind of like the catch that's kind of like the uh the favored uh sort of slander you know of um of of these kinds of posts for um european politicians you know who rejected kind of like the keensian model and um you know began to realize that this uh over regulation state planning was was quite literally crushing what remained in national industry but it also it was you know it was um it was actually like you know enslaving you're up to the dollar like even more than uh you know even even even more than today i mean by about like a wide mile it's not even close but um i he was only a supply citer but he you know like i said i think uh i you know i i don't think seriously especially people who are actually learning economics you know any band either so uh like oh he was a new liberal and like god's in the right to that too that that means that you have no like credibility or something is the right winner it's like i don't i you know the the political was the economic and i mean that's that's a liberal can see man that's not the way you should think of things anyway um but uh you know and rady again is also is his two other kind of big commitments were um you know snatched your supporting indexing with the Vatican and um you know a strong hostility towards um the Italian Communist Italian Communist Party and the Soviet Union now remember how we're talking about the English the British rather is plenty of scots and uh on the all-stemmon among the ryan said those vios thirds um and how uh they really were the pioneers of asymmetrical warfare um well around uh around the 1970s very late 70s um luckier general sir john hackett he was former commander in chief of the british army on the ryan which was uh again they they were the primary uh british army element and the inner german border okay um they were um kind of the equivalent of uh of of of 12 12 black horse the folie gap okay um he he confirmed over a series of interviews and and like talks you know at various you know war college site venues this was uh on November 16, 1990. So again, you know, right on the heels of these earlier disclosures about gladio. Well, Hackett, uh, Hackett said in knowing certain terms that it can send the contingency plan plan involving quote stay behind and resistance in depth was drawn up after 1945 and was absolutely essential. Okay. Um, a protégé of his, um, Anthony for our Hawkely. Um, a former commander in chief of natal forces in northern Europe, which would have been area operation would have been, uh, this Norway Denmark, the, uh, the, the, the North, the Scandinavian, the North Sea. Um, he, uh, reiterated to the Guardian magazine, um, that yes, what a general hackett that suggested was, was absolutely true. Now, the British were, were big on public diplomacy in a way America wasn't. You know, I think a couple years back, it's before there's as many options available on Twitter to, you know, um, do spaces and things. And I don't believe I've ever done a part about it, but I've posted many images of a the Soviet military power, um, magazine that you could purchase in any post office. And it was released, uh, every year from, I believe 81 until 1990. Um, it was put out by the defense intelligence agency. It was full of this incredible artwork because obviously a lot of these weapons platforms NATO didn't have actual photographs of them, but you know, they knew they existed. But, um, this was obviously an effort at, you know, true public diplomacy like educates the public on a question of, uh, of policy, significance, or, um, political goings on, you know, that's, uh, you know, they wouldn't, they wouldn't ordinarily be a bail do, uh, you know, a body of work that could sort of explain such colleagues matters and concise terms. And I see them, it's going to be like in the internet era, but um, Britain was always big on this. America was less big on this. Um, you know, but in the Cold War, uh, there were a few kind of very striking examples and Soviet military power was one of them. Well, what the British did was, and um, my dad had these books on his bookshelf as when I was a little kid and I, they were really blue my fucking mind. But um, this had a certain general Sir John Hackett, he wrote a book in 1978. And it was marketed as a novel. Um, in America, I don't believe it was marketed as such in the UK. In the UK, it had a different epilogue and we'll get into that in a minute, but it was called the Third World War, August 1985. It was a fictionalized account that reads kind of like threads and threads, you know, was a movie, but uh, you know, the, it doesn't have a traditional like, fiction narrative structure, you know, it'll jump to some, you know, like Warsaw packed, like early warning post, you know, um, in uh, East Germany, you know, and it'll like jump to, you know, some, Soviet missile base in Kazakhstan, and it'll like jump to like, you know, the president's uh, like situation room. But uh, what it basically is is it's, it describes the scenario. Okay. Um, that being that in August 1985, um, the Soviet Soviet Soviet war, so a pack, the salt west Germany. Um, the uh, there's a follow up, um, in 1992, called the Third World War, the untold story, which elaborated on the original with some details of this kind of factory universe, but also again, like it, it, um, it added a kind of, what I think was an alibi for Western American audiences is fascinating. But um, for context, some of the hack it believed in, you know, this was a, uh, the, the final, really critical phase of the Cold War, you know, like '78, '79, like '85, this was for Abel Ercher era, you know, it was a foreign conclusion to a lot of these, uh, a lot of these general law officers that there was going to be a war in Europe. Okay. Um, and uh, basically their job was not just to protect, you know, the, the people in the United Kingdom or the people in the United States, or you know, the people of Italy, you know, depending on the executive we're talking about, um, into the false their abilities and also to, uh, you know, to, to the door of the name, they can't fight and win, and nuclear war. Um, for our hockey, who was attacking some, um, producer I mentioned a minute ago, during this time, he, uh, started advocating strongly for, uh, the creation of a new home guard, um, and anticipation of a potential Soviet assault. You know, the, the home guard of over two was like, Lein Poon and stuff like, Dad's Army, you haven't seen that, but, um, far, high-quiet, hack-a-resurious about having able-bodied young men, you know, like basically, uh, take on the role of, uh, of a gladioelement in event of Warsaw pact to solve the island, okay? Um, so in the books, or in the book, we'll start with, kind of, I think, as the primary source, which is the first, um, edition, um, in a, the Third World War, the untold story, um, they describe, uh, basically, the political situation that stood then in terms of, you know, alliances, allegiances, um, then active battle spaces. Um, there was some speculation about space-based weapons platforms, but otherwise it was all based on like forces and being, you know, at the next end, force levels and weapons systems that actually existed and could expect it to be performed, could expect it to perform an action as described in the narrative. But, uh, the novel starts, then any of the four presidential election, um, Walter Mindale, who's the Democratic nominee, loses the former governor Thompson of South Carolina, who's obviously supposed to be Ronald Reagan. Okay, um, most of what's going on as, you know, in the world situation, as it's perceived and witnessed by, like Reagan and his cabinet is detailed by, you know, President Thompson's advisors, you know, who are briefing him on the international situation, like, from the time he takes office, you know, until, and then beyond, the answer to the facilities, you know, so the answer to the book, uh, ages, uh, becoming a real powerhouse, um, they've increasingly, um, what the exception of North Korea and Vietnam, um, liberalize their economies, um, and sort of, you know, ease back from any kind of political interdependence with the Soviet Union, um, from a strategic military perspective China has a has like a ding type figure at the helm Who's like not like a reformer kind of in like the Western you know like Fodemocracy sense But he's basically become a hostile the communism and all but name He's trying to flip North Korea and Vietnam against the Russia. I basically buying them off You know and pursue a kind of gradual You know and circle them into the Soviet Far East The India which is the Soviet Union is like only real like strong ally in the region You know continues to deteriorate The they're the exception to like Asia's prosperous condition Um, it's literally deteriorating um The Arab Cold War is intensifying as a as um A a a naceristic government in Egypt That's basically you know like a left-wing Nationalist like someone communist adjacent um dictatorship is cringing towards war with uh Saudi Arabia um South Africa has become a federation Like a racially divided federation under a ban to tend ban to stand system Which is basically stable But lives under constant threat by Nigeria um Which is now like fully committed to the South African border war as are like actual Soviet troops um Ethiopia is uh fallen apart um Including Eritrea um um The the Soviets try to Show of the situation Install their own proxy government but this fails um And then the book shows like a world map like what the implications both things are like in a hypothetical like you know Reagan like a situation room like on every front like the Soviets are are are losing the Cold War you know um It uh Meanwhile the poet burrow which presumably The trifecta of uh because his book is written in 78 the trifecta they drop off Grameco and oosanov is kind of like the real or the framerate rather than like they're the real executive the wussas are You know with the with the increasingly kind of disabled um Brezhnev is the figurehead um um And drop off uh for his like countervert in the story He basically drops the same speech that he did in 80 Or 81 and we talked about how you know the Soviet Union was like could not compete You know like in the information revolution and you know they the amount of computing powder computing power in the country was pathetic You know compared any developed state and if this Wasn't altered within a decade in a remedy like the Soviets would lose the Cold War Basically identical speech is given by you know the stand-in for in drop-off or you know like on the trombra that is mentioned um You know it The poet burrow accepts these conclusions profored um by this uh Composite executive character character character is kind of consensus that You know The state the total state nation of the economy Means that the Soviet armed forces will not be able to retain technological parity for the With the west for beyond a decade um And that the that the only way like the Soviet Union can bring the Cold War to a victorious conclusion Is uh to assault western Europe Annihilate NATO you know kind of forever banish um american forces from the continent You know and then you know the super piece from a position of uh a strength um and uh If not benevolence um The poet burrow understands that all those resistance from NATO is guaranteed um That before you know his it's amount of counteroffensive um The threat of uh The threat especially of uh of tactical nuclear weapons and the use of chemical weapons and the potentially the case of the former of horizontal escalation Will not Some NATO states out of the war further compromising You know their ability to reconstitute a mist you know the massive kind of gap and numerical forces in being so um The Soviet diplomatic core also believes that they can cause a schism in the western uh defense port on By convincing France to stay out of the conflict to fr- you know france is not a NATO member or they remain adjacent but During this period relations between the NATO and France were particularly frosty um The poet bro decides that there's three options before them variant a What kind of the suit a large a a massive preemptive nuclear strike Against Europe alongside uh Specialized Perichouper elements Deployed in areas not under direct nuclear so followed by a seven-day land invasion To the lens fronk for Lins frankford and dunquer line To another event it's so bad and any event assault the proverbial center With nuclear weapons like without um regard for You know power value attrition like assault the periphery With special operations elements and then um smash through uh Then now it radiated um You know for the main line of resistance You know with Warsaw-uphacked armor you know and then um Upon reaching uh again the lens frankford dunquer line basie within You know a stone's throw of Of the ocean you know to demand uh demand NATO come to peace terms um variant be Is identitally above but with full deployment of chemical weapons And high explosive conventional ordinance but a complete ban on the use of uh nuclear weapons um variant c Would be a conventional invasion um With tattoo nuclear strikes Being employed if um If if NATO is able to hold um Before uh Warsaw-uphacked reaches the Rhine Within seven days um The polar viral ultimately decides on variance c To avoid horizontal escalation and um You know the development of what almost certainly would You know snowball into a general nuclear war especially based upon The platforms then deployed and um The Particularly kind of dangerous Coppling of their their sensitivity to the sensory data But the lack of ability to gauge You know the uh The the the tree strength of porousness from where the uh You know the um Enemy device detected is is is many emergence you know but uh What uh Like short story long um What basically carries the day for NATO is like these stay behind like lady or units and like the US Marine Corps um They they they they were able to flip Yugoslavia Out of position of neutrality and like actual hostility Against the Soviet Union With the exception of like some aspects of you know uh of ethnic serves like serving in the security ever the red is you know what police and military, but um, you know, the uh, the Soviet Union stalls basically because uh, when we're so uppacked, uh, the hit West German forces that pre-filled, um, attempts to chase them out of the Netherlands and um, compounding, you know, the, the setback of the, the high attrition they took, you know, these uh, these, these, these Dutch militias, you know, like, raise up and just uh, and just smash, you know, essentially these, these are already weakened, uh, the Soviet columns, you know, they're, they're, they're essentially, you know, becoming kind of like dead, uh, were they sick, only to their, uh, lack of access to fuel, but um, you know, it's obvious that this book was published, uh, to present a scenario to the British people. I mean, it's like, it's a policy, uh, it's a war plan, um, it's a war plan slash war gaming manual coupled with uh, you know, a, uh, argument in favor of, you know, this tactical doctorate is how Britain can best protect itself in events of World War III and however this tastes will even like find the kind of plays in such things, it's essential and people need to be behind these aforementioned elements, you know, for them to be effective, you know, um, not just in, you know, material and um, logistical terms, but uh, in terms of their operational morale and everything else. Now, it's got very interesting when um, you know, the, uh, the early force structure of glady elements, like turns out to be like out and out, you know, fiascus, you know, um, especially in Italy. And as a parallel here, um, I think it was Roberto Fiore, who was, uh, uh, I think it's the Italian, the Italian liberation movement, the Italian national movement. You know, they look like a sea of the national fascist party. They had a, excuse them to develop in their ranks, not unlike that of the national fronts, you know, into the, uh, into the, into the, into the political, into the political soldier wing and like the flag group, which I find totally fascinating. And it bears directly on what we're going through today within our own, um, within our own resistance culture. And we'll get into that next episode. I'm sorry if that went uh, too long, but I'm like really tired. Otherwise I'd keep on going. But um, I hope that's an acceptable stopping point. Um, there's a lot more to take in. And this is kind of a logical stopping point. You'll see what I mean. We're going to the next episode. If that's cool. Yep. That works. Um, two plugs real quick. I'm all in. Yeah. I mean, you can find me on Twitter, at the Capitol, REL underscore number seven HM 7777. You can find me on subsdick real time is 7777. That's subsdick.com. I got a pot on there. I got one from on there. I got a merch line now. Um, if you be so kind, like we drop the merch address in the description section, you know, by like really dope like shirts and flags and stuff like that. But I think that really cool. Um, my, uh, the artist who who mocked him up here at Cree, he's, he's, he's fucking incredible. This incredible dude and a fine artist. Um, I'm working on this documentary of our entailer. I'm going to the DNC convention in a few weeks. And again, I am sorry to everybody. I had to miss Nashville this weekend, but I got to save my strength, man. I'm sorry. I sound like some like banged up freaking old lady or something, but, um, as far as my plugs, like seek initial fine, man, in my Instagram, you know, I'm all over the place. Um, I'm trying to bear down now on, um, you know, this, uh, the, this documentary kind of video content type stuff, which I, which, which I think is not that I don't know some pretentious. I think there's a profundity to it, man. But also it's, this is important in history. It's going to be lost. Then, but that in my manuscript is kind of like my, my big focus right now. Um, but, uh, I'm always available to pods, man. Like, uh, never, ever has anything to ask me. Yeah, let's, let's reconvene and I'm in due part two of lady. And we should watch, we should watch another movie too, man. So we can, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. What we're going to do that when we, uh, when we sign off, I'm going to recommend a movie. Yeah, man. Yeah. Thanks. Yep. Take care. Want to welcome everyone back to the Picanana show. Thomas, how are you doing? I'm well. Thanks for hosting me. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get, uh, let's get part two of Operation Gladio going. It's been a little while. You know, I've been busy and decided to take a break for one episode and, uh, talk about current events. But, um, yeah, I'm, I'm eager for this. Let's do it. I think I left off talking about public diplomacy and talking, uh, to say, really about Sir John Hackett and his, uh, you know, in his, um, his conflict model, his predictive conflict model. Those then later made available and marketed as, you know, in book form, you know, as, um, a, uh, a bit of strategic forecasting, you know, like, like fiction. Um, and I think I was, uh, discussing that to emphasize the degree to which, you know, um, conventional force structure planning, returned in earnest, you know, not just in policy corridors, but it was, it was very much in the, the forefront of, in the minds of public intellectuals, you know, people like Thomas Shelling, people, you know, like, like Hackett himself. You know, the emergence of deeper parodies and, you know, countermeasures, uh, against both, you know, long range, nuclear weapons platform, as well as theater-based weapons systems, you know, led people to realize that, uh, that conventional forces had, had acquired a, a new relevancy. And obviously, there's a political aspect to that very much related to, you know, how to manage a, a potential occupation by Soviet forces. And that's really what, that, that's really what, um, gave sort of momentum to gladio from something that was just sort of bandied about in, in think tanks and, and various defense ministries and, and the, the constellation, a, a stays that made up NATO. It, you know, it became a real essential aspect of, of war planning, for the Western Alliance. And, uh, I think particularly, the experience of Vietnam, as well as, some of these experiences in, in Latin America and Africa. You know, you don't, you don't want to wait until the onset of hostilities to develop what Frank Kitson called, you know, your, your counter-insertness, the element, you know, you want that to be part of your force structure and being. Okay. And also, especially in Italy, but in other states too, you know, there was a radical right wing that were it not assimilated in some sort of formal capacity into the, into the, uh, into the formal, political and military structure, like the former kind of, the, the formal sort of, um, you know, conflict readiness paradigm. You know, these, these, these people could have caused a whole lot of problems. You know, I mean, I, they did cost problems. I'm talking about irrationality of whole world logic. I'm not rendering an absolute judgment on these people's values and what they considered to be acceptable, going to, you know, what was in their perception and ongoing emergency. But it was an odd sort of conspiracy of historical variables, particularly in the final phase of the Cold War that, kind of like led to this being something that was developed in earnest and taken seriously by people. Like a different paradigm with less binary possible outcomes and a benefit still is not something that really would have, it's not really what have acquired legs metaphorically speaking. And like we talked about command and control, really, what under like the revolution in military affairs, which was a real thing. It wasn't just a propaganda work to intimidate Warsaw Pact. It wasn't just something that war college types or a cosy looking for ways to kind of tweak not just for structure, but doctrine, like kind of a number of doctrine. It had a real core of realism to it. The computing revolution and the emergence of true high tech at the very close of the 1970s. And the very, very early 1980s, like this changed everything. Okay. And America and NATO, they never had the same kind of rigid commitment, arguably inflexible commitment that the Warsaw Pact had to treating things, to treating battle doctrine, almost like regulation and not deviating from that. They didn't do that, but they were similarly interested in eliminating uncertainties from the battle space in terms of operational outcomes. Okay. And command and control, which also spills over into and details with situational awareness, up to the minute, if not the moment. Yeah, this was a real thing. And one of the things that takes on an outside significance when you're trying to control the battle space and a future conflict in that capacity is there's outliers that are unconventional in nature. Okay, both in absolute terms, as well as in, according to the rationale of military science. Okay. So you couldn't really leave these elements that were already existing and kind of coalescing, in Italy and in the battle space, to a lesser degree in the Buddhist Republic. Like you couldn't just leave these kind of resurgent or vestigial fascists and national socialist hydrates. You couldn't just kind of like leave them alone and hopefully behave themselves. But then suddenly, when war arrives, you have a problem with these people. And then while you're fighting the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact, the outcome which probably would have been decided within 72 to 100 hours in the initial phase, I mean. It was a resident people disaster to say, like, oh well, we're just gonna like address this contingency when it emerges. That's not realistic. So that was something to keep in mind. Kind of like a very different initiative in terms of it's underlying reasoning in terms of, it's application of force in terms of its purpose, like the Phoenix program. I raise because people act like the Phoenix program, like the sinister thing. There was nothing nice about it. It definitely blurred the line between civilian and combat and it pretty much flew in the face of what was at least formal precedent as regards the laws and customs of war and what is legitimate, what and who is legitimate target and who is not. But there's an organic quality to doctrines that develop incident two and then anticipation of armed hostilities. Okay, so there really, there wasn't some sinister thing about surrounding Gladiol. There wasn't some shadow government waiting in the wings because, oh, the NATO was actually a clouted fascist and it wasn't that, these guys were secretly indexed with the government and they were just like mass creating as extremists to kind of try and get an understanding of how exactly how many people in the population at large was sympathetic to these ideas and then in turn could be mobilized. It was nothing like that. Okay, it was very organic. Okay, whether people agree with it on ethical or doctrinal terms or not. That was essential. And one of the ways NATO survived, especially after France about out, despite continuing to participate and a lot of command post exercises from NATO, it was the nuclear question change things. Obviously, but one of the main thing that changed was that NATO kind of developed into one of the reasons that's obsolete today, among many. But NATO kind of developed into about 1980, like late, very late '70s, early '80s. It kind of morphed into this sort of forum to integrate and optimize assets of the several member states. And in so doing also kind of marshaling, mobilizing and optimizing assets that were just intrinsic to the battle space, like literally natural features of Europe, within the territories, the concept of the alliance, as well as within spaces that were undoubtedly gonna be the setting for future engagement, sort of critical nature. So everything from setting up logistical infrastructure, to facilitate rapid reinforcement, in terms of homogenizing the gauge of railroad tracking, to making sure that the properly paved roads were abutted the essential choke points as if we're where NATO is likely to be able to hold up for at least 48 hours or so. I'm gonna ask about this too, it was a utilizing the terrain. A lot of theater-based nuclear weapons were actually based on farmland. And getting these farmers to agree to that, like it took some out and out bribery, as well as very aggressive political finesse, and I'm sure in some cases threats. But the human aspect of ecologies, the street ecologies within defined territorial spaces, I mean, not only are they an important asset that they may be the most important aspect, okay? So people likely to become partisans in a event of Warsaw-upact conquest. These were people who already existed. And kind of drilling them into a viable stay behind military force, or a paramilitary force built around a counter-insurgent cadre structure that then only tracked with the overall disposition of what constituted prepperiness and what constituted adequate force structures to survive if not actually defeat Warsaw-upact in a general war conventional or otherwise. So these guys in the Italian social movement, these national socialist guys who already had kind of a self-structured their own, these guys who were affiliated with the non-traditional, and I don't know, concert of elements, but like we're very much, you know, engaged in the Cold War. Like these people had to be brought into the fold in some way, shape, or form. Okay. And this had precedence, I mean, even in Europe, you know, obviously both the exits and the allies, you're talking about OSS or the, the, the odd there, the ladder, which had all kinds of problems and was shot through with them. With, with some out and out traders, but there's also some, you know, there's, there's some aspects of it, particularly it. I don't know how intelligence agencies like breakdown, what would be the code in order of battle, but there were, there were company level elements of this, a proper way to conceptualize it. Who had no trouble with Canary, I said no idea he was even, you know, conspiring against the fear and the party, you know, who were very much engaged in doing things like, you know, identifying Chetniks that, you know, we're not just fighting the part of the Zins, but no, we're also fighting other factions at Chetniks and basically found themselves, you know, adjacent to the access powers and theater and the party. And, you know, in these guys are brought in the fold, okay. America obviously, OSS and British secret intelligence, they were constantly trying to identify, you know, French resistant types, who they could insist, you know, we're not actually communist and they were failing at that in terms of ideological bonnifies, but that's not the reason why they go all becomes such an important frontman to them. It's not that these, it's not these like partisan stay behind elements in France, like just like a level troll's to go so much. It's that, you know, in the angle of feeling the world, especially, he could be held out as kind of a catalyzing figure that the people would accept, you know, and when the reality of, when the reality of, of the elements that, you know, supposedly he inspired and upon his, you know, stayed for turn to France and be the commander of it. I mean, often these people had like no trouble them whatsoever, but, you know, it's the, it's the appearance that matters and the ability to, you know, finesse is that people basically accepted, you know, the, in 1947, that was kind of the critical year in my opinion, and in terms of like the first real kind of, the first real kind of like integrated NATO war planning, or what became NATO, this, this kind of like integrated operational structure, sort of like emerged, you know, it was 1947 that France, the kind of kingdom, the Benelok states, they, they had commissioned, what came to be known as the quote, Western Union clandestine committee, which technically was just kind of like this academic forum of like military officers and conflict specialist military science types, but it, it was, it's work was informing policy in a direct way, it was like a direct pipeline to the several defense departments of, of post-war Europe and one of the first things they did was create at least on, at least formally, was create a joint policy on, and stay behind elements, you know, and this was what was presented by the Europeans in, in 1951 after you know, NATO and foreign economy existence, this whole, this format, this clandestine committee, it, it was basically formally assimilated into, in a NATO around 1951, 1952, okay, and that's when Supreme Allied Commander Europe, you know, in other words, you know, the Americans, they, they established, they were on kind of a symbol of it, which was also like, you know, had, had jurisdiction over, earlier incarnations, such as the Western Union clandestine committee, they, she, Supreme Allied Commander Europe branded this committee the, the quote, clandestine clanding committee, and it was housed at Supreme headquarters allied powers in Europe, and so taking very seriously, you know, and of course America at that time was, was engaged in Korea in a very, a very brutal war, you know, and not, not just was, that just was America engaged against, you know, the North Korean army, but, you know, they were engaged against the, the Chinese people of origin army, okay, this was, very critical time. The peacetime role, obviously, of the clandestine clanding committee, you know, would have, basically to coordinate the different military and paramilitary plans and, kind of conceptual paradigms in the several states, and adjacent partners, states, like, you know, switch to the end of Australia and then later France, in order to both like a void, you know, like duplicate committees, you know, that, especially in military capacities at the command level, with a general command level, you can't have like, as it said, too many cooks in the kitchen without a real problems, okay, so, Supreme Allied command, they were sending a message, like, look, you know, this, that's not happening, we just described, you're not, you're not all going to like develop your own policy on, how is this coordinated, it's going to be one policy, it's, it's going to be an integrated command control structure, it's going to be treated basically like any other, like any other NATO, branch, combat element, okay, there is two groups formed within this, this clandestine clanding committee, one of which was pretty much exclusively focused on, on communications, you know, and, and a homogenizing language fluency and familiarity with, you know, essentially, the platforms, the weapons platforms, the command control technologies, everything else, you know, that was agreed upon to be utilized, one of the weaknesses of Warsaw packed was that, you know, German, like, not some folks army officers, probably above the equivalent of captain, like most of them had at least some fluency in Russian, like most Russian did not speak German, you know, most of the Germans did not speak Polish, you know, you had the, the Baltic people, a lot of them spoke like neither Russian nor German, you know, so there was this, this led to kind of like a house divided, and that command control level, let's fail. So, NATO, you know, they integrated their rank structure, you know, there's like formal equivalence of, like, like what, like, or like an E3 is, or an O6 and everything, okay. They, you know, they, they, they, it was decided, you know, like in what command, I mean, different commands, they're different languages would be favored, like within that command, based on, you know, the, the ethnic constitution of primary elements and theater, but basically, like fluency, basic fluency and like German or English, like was, was essential. You know, there, there was an integration of like the main battle tanks used, you know, like back then, it was less complicated, it was far more brutal and perilous to like, be part of a tank crew, but it was comparatively like a little tech compared to like we'd used to, but you know, like they, you know, like a mirror, You like America? tank crews become familiar with British tanks and vice versa. And like both would become familiar with German panzers that were in heaviest deployment and things like that. So similarly, the way the dissvistions towards stay behind elements and partisans was homogenized and brought into this homogenization process of command and control. And in addition to that working group that focused on communication and networks and everything else, there was another working group or committee if you will called the special project branch. And that basically you would do it working in different scenarios. Okay. I know we're trying to determine what are the capabilities of these stay behind units? Like what can I actually do? You know, what's their mission orientation and concrete terms? You know, like what are they trying to strike at? You know, like are they trying to are they trying to index with civilian elements that can either be controlled in the cooperating with them or who are naturally disposed to be friendly to them anyway. You know, basically they're like a European vietcong except on the right. Are they basically like a reserve element so that when you know mass casualties occur, like these guys can basic rush to the front and fill the roles of regulars. Like are they, is their function basically like partisan attacks and terrorism, you know, against the East German and Soviet and check who had occupiers or whatever. And so the special project branch, you know, like clarified this stuff. Okay. Eventually this became integrated in 1957 and I, I think that's really when, this is why we're like NATO came into its own and there's when still people are banning about especially people who did not want especially people who favored like a demilitarization in Germany, you know, like the United States and Warsaw Pact basically out of Europe and their notion was, well, we can create our own collective security arrangement with the way called European defense community. You know, consisting like the Benelux states, you know, like Germany, ideally France, you know, Italy and the UK and the idea was that it would be a totally integrated structure and it wouldn't represent like anyone nation. Like one of the reasons why like the Bundeswehr, like their uniform seems so like dull and there's not even anything like a bow to them that's like other than the fact that cuff titles are still in use. You can't really tell that they're like a German army, but the whole, the uniforms they adopted ultimately was in this era like 57 and that was like deliberate because the idea was like, okay, this is like the army of Europe, but we've also got to like make it clear that there's not any corner what like showmanistic tendencies like a Vofan SS, you know, but we're, you know, we're kind of just like this like European defense force and in a in parliamentary committees across the proposed member states, the conceptually like it gained some ground, but you know, it proved basically unworkable, particularly after, you know, the things changed in Berlin and it was clear that, you know, really after Korea in my opinion and some other things, but it became clear that like the Soviets were not, the American, they already had no more good faith, um, credibility in the eyes of the Soviets, so it's never going to leave Germany, okay, and Berlin particularly wasn't just like the coveted sort of prize on the, on the war map, but it was, it was a thorn in the side of Warsaw Pact, just like Cuba was huge thorn in the side of, you know, the United States, um, but it, that by, you know, by like 1961, no, nobody was talking about like a European defense committee anymore, but um, one of the things that, uh, one of the things that came out of kind of this experimental like military culture on the continent was um, the establishment of a combined, um, the six powers lines committee, it was the United States, you know, the Kingdom, France, Benelux countries, you know, all of whom again, it had been involved in developing, developing a war plan and, and doctrinal paradigm for the stay behind organizations, but um, you know, when, when this, um, when the six powers committee, like formerly convened, um, which became the quote, "allied can claim destined committee," and its final iteration of 1979-76 was the quote, "allied coordination committee." Uh, it literally, it's functions like the way people described it, you know, um, I'm talking about, you know, top NATO brass, as well as, you know, um, civilian elements, you know, like in the, in the Bundesrepublic government who were like indexed with the NATO structure, um, they, uh, they, uh, they, they, they, they referred to it as specifically, you know, um, the technical committee to bring stay behind organizations together, um, and clearly define like their mission, man, they, the force structure and all of that. Okay. Um, what was the authority of, uh, said, premail like command in Europe? I, I mean, it was basically godlike within its dominion, you know, um, that's one of the things, I mean, when you sign on for NATO, you sign on to go all in the United States, uh, when war arrived in Warsaw, packed, I mean, you also agreed, not just tacitly, but in a very, what, what, what would become a very active, actively engaged, um, capacity of, you know, not just allowing like theater-based nuclear weapons to be based on your territory, but like essentially, uh, allowing America to have, you know, control of these munitions, you know, I mean, it's just like one example, like when the point seventy other day, like when the, when, um, when these intermediate range platforms, listing this old platform is arriving in Europe, and when platforms like the Pershing 2, which people find odd these days, but was, you know, the army head was, it was an army weapons platform, like at the folded gap, um, it was a Luflaf, uh, flot that retained control over the launch mechanism. It was the Americans who retained physical custody of the warheads, and you know, if an order came down, you know, those warheads that should be married to their launch vehicles, but I mean, obviously it was, it was America who had the final say on these things, you know, um, but it, uh, the, uh, this is pretty openly talked about, at least within, within, within NATO command corridors. I mean, some of the language uses is liberally ambiguous, but it's not, it wasn't this like, eyes only thing where people would claim like it didn't exist. You know, which is kind of interesting, and that's why, like when, what became it to be globally, and kind of flippantly known as, you know, like the years of lead and Italy jumped off, that's one of the reasons why a lot of the media establishment, you know, found, uh, allied command structures, it's basically be culpable. I mean, if you, it's a whole other issue, we probably need another episode, like what were the years of lead? Like, were these, were they, with these self-described like fascists. - I mean, they were allied with the Red Army Fraction. The Red Army Fraction, so. - Yeah, some of them were definitely. Some of them, it's not clear who they were and some of them, the guys they arrested, it doesn't really track. It was like who they could blame these things on. But as soon as you know, but some of the subs probably don't, like the claim was that, you know, this, this point of quote, like neo-fascist terrorism, which killed a lot of people. The claim was that, well, these are the stay behind organizations. You know, NATO and these, you know, right wing governments. They're directing these attacks to happen. So as the procure, you know, like a permanent emergency mandate, you know, to basically like militarize the country in perpetuity. I mean, that's not impossible. But I mean, the late 70s, early 80s, when you had the Soviet Union from a few hundred kilometers away, you know, like pointing, pointing these like massive, IRBMs at Western Europe, you know, that had multiple warheads that, you know, when they hit their target, would just like devastate the entire country. In the case of like these smaller states, I mean, like it's not. If you want people to, if you want to create some sort of like balance, it's terror at, you know, at, at scale, such that, you know, it provides like a catalyst for martial law. I mean, you can, you don't need to kill 80 people in a train station bombing in 1980. You're going to say that like, well, the Soviets have targeted us for annihilation and obviously based on the deployment pattern, like they now believe, that, that nuclear, that first use of nuclear weapons is perfectly acceptable as a means of accomplishing their goals by, by the mega-settle force of arms. I mean, you, okay, there you go, you know, like the Soviets have to kill us all if we don't have to build countermeasures and, and mass arrest people who are, are not willing to support, you know, the war effort when it comes. Like there's ways, there's ways you can do it in epoch or could have done it. Like you don't need to like pull off a spectacular, you know, series of bombings or shootings and like kill if you hundred of your own countrymen. Like that's not, and again, it's not impossible, but it just kind of defies credibility of media in the apps and some more concrete evidence. And again, this was, this was discussed very openly. It's like US Army, at the US Army War College, this was circulated later. I mean, it's still in the Cold War. I don't know when it first emerged, but there was a, there was a document like a study put out by Supreme LA Command Europe that uh, it from the Supreme headquarters, the LA powers in Europe. It was titled Supreme headquartered powers in Europe, problems outstanding with the quote, standing group. There's a subheading number four titled, quote, special plans. And quite literally it, it, it was um, Taylor to address like the, the literal delineation and responsibilities of the quote, clandestine services. I don't want to say, you know, quote, the, the delineation of responsibilities of Supreme LA Command Europe on clandestine matters, including quote, pertinent definitions and organizations and principles for unorthodox warfare planning. You know, so this was really at the forefront. And again, I don't, I don't want to go too far afield because this is already a dense topic, but you've got to understand the overall, as the Soviet's approach to nuclear parity and arguably, you know, shot past NATO, especially the United States, in terms of its strategic nuclear capability. Um, yeah, like American developing countermeasures that, you know, characterized by deep parrot, what's called deep parodies, you know, um, arguably that kind of neutralized Soviet advantages, only the smarter and higher tech. But like regardless, so the nuclear weapons are up the table or not, even a horizontal escalation was, was like an ability, even if you could prove that World War III was going to start with a conventional like combined arms fight, um, across a massive front. And casualties were going to be utterly horrifying. Um, one of the reasons, uh, the tankers and the North German plane, which was mostly a British Army area of operation, conscious of the folded gap, you know, which was a patrol by 11th and Henry Calary, you know, Black horse as a Galita element. Um, these guys were totally known certain terms, you know, they, I never issued any fedamines on the regular, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna have, our job is to hold for 72 hours and you're not going to survive this, but we will hold for 72 hours without sleep, um, you know, and kill as many kill as many of Ivan's tanks as we can before we get over run and we will get over run, you know, and the thought was, I don't know if that's a thought, it was, I think it was pretty well grounded and based on the inputs that were utilized, which for the time was, was correct. Um, within six to seven days, we're so affected, I reached the Rhine and um, around 92, 93, when the old Soviet archives that breathed, period, they were basically open, you know, to watch an historian, including Mr. Irving. Um, it was pretty clear that the Soviet planned, what they reached the Rhine to stop, to reconstitute, regroup and refit, and then presumably like demand, like issues, surrender terms to the allies and then, you know, like demand, the demand, the allies demure and accept the, you know, the Soviet dominance of Europe. So it was, um, even like a best case scenario, you're, you know, you're looking at being overrun, okay. Um, and the only way to combat that, you can't, you can't, you can't combat that from the air, okay. You know, the only way to combat that is literally on the ground, um, you know, um, in a way that, uh, essentially makes the, again, kind of like the social, political and military and paramilitary, like ecology, essentially too hostile and too dangerous and too unstable, like for the occupied to manage, okay. Um, and again, I mean, for, this might seem obvious to some people, but it seems obvious for the reasons I'm talking about because that, that became this essential, this essential aspect of, um, of war doctrine. You know, um, since clandestine, uh, the allied clandestine coordinating committee, um, it created what was also known as the several quote allied clandestine coordinating groups. And these guys were, they, they, they glies, um, on the personnel front with, uh, NATO command elements, down to, like, at least battalion level, one probably company level. Um, victory these we are on Istley Stapped by you know, men from from Supreme headquarters out allide horses in Europe on the idea was the you know again to create a kind of how much an area of of thought and orientation you know towards the formal mission statement well uh. at the same time kind of tailoring these efforts to address and and kind of satisfy the local conditions in each of these countries which which varied quite a lot you know culturally linguistically you know the terrain was different like the way people viewed uh. the way people viewed like the the eastern and the Russian differed you know it was there's this political there was anthropological there was you know sociological aspects of these decisions were running um. now in event of world war three supreme allied command Europe absolutely intended and was meant to and was structured the exercise operation control over pretty much every aspect of the member state to the reason without like micromanaging they're trying to make micromanage you know like you know the reed detect it's the self-defeating but um. so in terms of like overall um. in terms of like overall strategic orientation there wasn't for a time in the city to coordinate activities since that we're talking about across all different commands and event of war time you know particularly where you're racing the clock you basically have you know seventy two hours to hold the so we union at bay on the main line resistance of folder in the restaurant plane uh. you're not going to be able to just like splendidly like in incorporate this structure into in a pre-existing community areas i mean you have to abide before those differences and for those to speak you know kind of sensitivity is the various things that might seem totally innocuous or ridiculous or whatever you know so not suggesting this was some like well well machine but it was basically i mean that's kind of best you can do if this is uh. if this is the mission orientation you know like the you get the world is the world is not you know like the not not not to lurk you to be over everybody is everybody privileges reason over passion and man basically malleable and and it's that's not the way things are you know um. i believe and this takes us back some years to um. it was after you know the supreme allied command elements wordy devising ideas and how to incorporate stay behind into the order of battle in the war playing structure you know that that again that that that kind of research began earnest around fifty seven uh. as nado kind of evolved and again like as as nuclear forces came off the table is you know both the primary deterrent and the primary kind of assault platform you know um. again conventional forces and and and political warfare took on an outside significance and in 1972 a man named vincenzo vinciguerre he's the man who was blamed against the b for the patiano massacre and may thirty first nancy two patiano is a suburb of cigarette in italy uh. apparently some anonymous call came in you know the personal air a style the local police the kada bignetti i think they're called telling them to check this car is abandoned car uh. the car itself turned out to be an explosive like the whole thing wire with like a plastic so when he's coppers investigated it you know when they like uh. jimmy to door open like it like it exploded and and you know killed uh. i think he'll three of the cops three of the five cops and like the others remained but um. you know it begs uh. there's more severe tax subsequent some of which were bona fide mass casually events but it does beg the question like why and it's not just uh. people like how are they in and with crank ideas uh. you see like that's a sort of a bad it's reasonably serious historians who claim that like see like this is this is the fruits of operation radio that's like what you like white what was the motive of these guys doing this you know i mean i like i said like their claim is that all it was a part of attention strategy but say but again like you you don't need that when or so packed as as twenty three thousand nuclear weapons and thousands of them are pointed at at at at your up at decapitation range you know uh. it's not the same reason in my mind you don't need to like blow up the world trade center and pretend alkyte did it to like past the patriot act you know if it's not this not a thing's work you know i mean it's like look at the covid nonsense if the government like a murder ten million people to pretend covid with a deadly virus like no i mean like it's it's uh. that's not really a propaganda works and um. people generally go along with it you know like it at face value you know it's and again especially cold war there was peculiar exit in these due to history of students of history will know like Julius of all i was arrested and indicted and he was acquitted it was events surrounding these uh. years of let it tax and they claim was that apple i was some kind of like grew figure took this cult of like young fascist part of the ins and so in some like in chote way like he was conspiring to kill people with these like terrorist which made no sense whatsoever and basically i left out a court but um. the perpetrators of the catch out of massacre the alleged to be vencensso vince guetta again carlo citritor and i'm evano bachino all these guys were members of the new order with clover called the new order the full name of it was uh. the new order scholarship center okay which was basically you know it was basically like uh. that kind of and kind of like neo-fascist cell like intellectual type guys who were also like paramilitary stuff and things they were big on like Julius ever on stuff you know but like i said it doesn't really it doesn't really track you know bachino was in fact he he himself is involved in some of his events he later was killed like in in in murky circumstances during like a similar event you know some people claim that like well he was like a cop or like some intelligence asset that is possible or maybe he was a second nut. Okay. Vince Aguera and Citritini, they're both status to life and prison. For years, Citritini, he fled to Spain like when the indictment came down with the informational complaint. I don't know if in Europe they actually indict people or they've forged people to process at least in a least sense. I think their protocol is different. But he was finally pinched in 1998 and then about a decade later, his health was failing. They just cut him loose for compassionate release. And it's like really man, this guy's just like demented terror is going to you when you're like cutting him loose or it'll help. I mean like the whole the whole thing was strange. What's significant too is that like the new order and this whole this whole kind of like new order like like think tank or like intellectual kind of cadre. One thing about it like that. These guys were they were born out of the Italian social movement which was a main, it was an openly like neo-fascist party but it was a mainstream party. Like Mussolini's granddaughter, she was like a public face of it. And in their traditional strongholds, people like openly like celebrated and rep and rep that. You know like the the new order was something of a schismatic break off from that. From the Italian social movement. Like I said, what I like in it to what I like in it to it's an imperfect example but you know like that like the national front schism that led to like you know the flag group which was you know the traditional kind of John Tindall national front and there's nothing wrong with that. I think that's what front actually did some really great things. Especially for especially for you know the the the downerly mobile kind of like white working class whose community is really devastated by you know the UK's sort of suicidal, immersed in globalism. But you know the uh and like I said the Italian social movement itself is every evil in like sensibility. The new order was very much more on like a national socialist tip if that uh I don't know if that makes any different people or not but again like I don't this whole narrative doesn't really add up but um you know the uh it's also too like I don't I mean how about the regime is basically speaking out of like both sides of its mouth is like okay like these state behind organizations. I'm not going as far as to say they're like we're like natal created them like you can't you can't just like create alchita or whatever like it gets like Michael Morrissey you can't just like create some sort of radical like neo-fascist cadre as a state mine element like it's not a life war. You know these tendencies develop very organically. They solidify in a harden and become in some people's cases like extreme only to like you know personal influences in their orbit who kind of feed on these peoples like youth, the energy that tends to outshine their their capacity resource reflection but it's uh you know but at the same time um at the same time the fact that these guys were for decades by the time this stuff was happening they were not just fully assimilated in the kind of like the NATO commanding and control structure but they were considered to be like an essential part of it so it's like but now you can't control your people anymore and they're like blowing up cops they're like you know they're they're opening fire they're ripping through full auto like at train stations and killing old ladies and everybody else who happens to be downrange their fire like that doesn't really make sense man okay you know um it just doesn't and um not everything is uh not not not everything's a science experiment and you know not everything is uh not nothing blend itself the quotable inputs where you can you know derive like a concrete answer on the human condition and you know warrant peace and stuff like that um I uh somebody I think that that's um there's a lot of uh even to this day it's like a lot of smoke around these things like for really for no reason you know I mean like the men who were really instrumental these activities are one dead you know it's like like you could say well it's my like embarrassed the government it's like okay if you want to take the people don't take government seriously anymore you know if they did it's like okay I mean there's there's uh there's a laundry list of like ass-night grievances like people hang on you know like the government you know it's like what's what's one more you know I don't I don't really understand the discussion around I mean I understand it intellectually what I mean is I continue to kind of stupefy me that um people don't see uh like see through how like fucking uh transparent uh this is um oh wow we've been going for an hour and we yeah let's get out the years of lighting next man if I start that now we're gonna be here like another hour yeah no problem at all is that a people who don't want to fuck with the program sounds good to me okay great that makes me feel like someone I want to crash soon because I got frankly I got a big day tomorrow oh yeah you do but uh yeah you do plugs real quick yes sir you can always find you can always find me on my website it's time is 7777.com number 7 h on a s 7777.com I'm on Twitter I got a pretty active I got a pretty active timeline it's real capital REO underscore number 7 h on a s 777 um I'm on t ram on instagram I uh my substacks the best place to hit me up I got I got a lot of video I this my podcast is a lot of this kind of like random audio with me talking to people we got a reactive chat that's been hopping a lot lately that's real time is 7777.com if you peak include like some of my plugs in the video description that would that would be great man you'd have my credits of course yeah I have your um and I have your the the merch the new merch you have and everything included there no that's awesome yeah thanks so much yeah I'm very blessed that our our buddy character you know I don't know idea to mock that stuff up man he's got real ability you know um yeah I'm I'm very good it looks good too it looks really good yeah it looks really good it looks quality yeah yeah no it's um people really like it and it makes me happy man we can deliver stuff that people like and actually want to like wear on their body you know and you actually got retweeted by Candice Owens yesterday yeah I know that's why there's been like a delus of I it's weird man it's I it's weird being like internet famous in some small way like I mean it's okay I'm fine what I don't know about Candice Owens I don't really mess with their content or anything or whatever I mean if you want to retweet me that's fine I what though yeah it's got a noody all right Thomas thank you very much yeah thank you buddy want to welcome everyone back to the picanana show Thomas is back and um think this is the gonna conclude gladio today right it's what long time coming you're muted yeah I'm sorry y'all I'm just call up my outline here real quick no problem yeah no I think um oh yeah here we go I already got it up um yeah like I said man um just to advise the viewers and subs like I don't I don't feel great so like forgive me if I repeat myself or like lose my place but I think we're I think we're good um something I want to get into today and like I will um as we get into the topic gladio created an interesting ideal article culture that is relevant to like what we do today. It's not just a strange footnote of history. It's not just something that gives rise to and spiritual narratives. It's not just this kind of artifact of Cold War, grand strategy and military planning and related specifically to the nuance as a political warfare and all that. Like I said, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but ground zero for gladio is really Italy. And Italy, Italy absolutely lost the war like all of Europe did. You know, the Vatican was hit incredibly hard, like figuratively and literally, like Vatican II was basically like the Catholic leadership hierarchy, reinventing itself to to be agreeable to, you know, the American hegemony and like the and the Nirmor world. Okay. And the rest of Italy, Italy was a key, I mean, Italy was like the fifth largest economy, I think, the end of the 70s on this planet. And Italy, Italy and the Vanillax countries, they were like, they were like, they were like, they were all flanks. Okay. I mean, I obviously like the Bundesrepublic, the Bundeswehr, you know, the US Army, you know, specifically the armored cab and fuel artillery to British Army on the North German plane. They were, they were the Shverepont of like the main line of resistance in the German border, but the Italian Army, you know, in the south and the Vanillax military elements on the, in the North, they were just as essential. So there's this weird situation with Italy because it wasn't occupied like the Bundesrepublic was. It was part of NATO, but there was also this like overtly fascist culture that was still like there. Like, they were sending people to parliament, you know, they, and it just kind of had to be tolerated. Because it's like, what are you going to do? It's like they had, they had a pro, they had a cold war your government. They had like a permanent in competency. You know, they were, they, they hated the communists. They were like 110 percent by the Cold War. It was kind of like something they, it was kind of something like Washington had to tolerate. So, but of course, they decided to kind of like try and purpose that towards Cold War ends on the political side, not just the military side. And that was really like the core of gladio. You know, there was obviously gladio elements in in the Vanillax countries like in the France as well, even though France wasn't, you know, part of the formal NATO structure. There was, there were, there were gladio elements of a sort like in in the Bundesrepublic, although that was like a tricky thing, you know, and it was, it was weirdly mehandled, but Italy, like the core of these guys was Italy. And also, you know, the Italians, the Italians have, and they're contributing an outsized, in an outsized way to, to European cultural things. And let me talk about, you know, like, I mean, going back to the, to the inner warriors, you know, like Muslims march on a Rome, that was a huge development. You know, it was this right wing, revolutionary tendency that was basically like returning the serve, like ever the bolster of revolution. And we're recently seen who Americans like art and like artistic endeavors and and aesthetical things that has this, that has like an outsized, uh, cashier in Europe, like this day. Like you wouldn't think of America as a painter, even like a novelist or a filmmaker. Like you wouldn't think of, you wouldn't think of him like pointing in something in the stream of, cultural commerce and it like a movement developing around it or it coming to like symbolize some kind of movement, but in Italy, that's very much the case. It wasn't it is, you know, and the Cold War was no exception. So you had these guys in Italy running around who cost you to kind of like a core gladio and like some of them are very compromised. They were basically like NATO agents and that's like just what they were and they didn't really give a fuck like about what the underlying ideology was beyond, you know, Cold War imperatives. But you also had these guys who were, you know, who are basically like, like, workplace at Julius Evela or who were in the early days had, you know, fought in the Italian army like with the Axis or, you know, they were guys who came to gladio because they were agitating against communists, you know, or they were or immigrants or, you know, whatever their kind of core issues were and they got swept up, you know, if I like Italian, carbonary or political police and I'm like, okay, look, like, why don't you make yourself useful like this is what you're wanting to do, you know, so that's that's kind of like the that that's kind of that's kind of like the situation on the Italian street, you know, particularly in Rome, but kind of like all over the country and I can't remember what got into this or not. I refresh my recollection, but I if I'm repeating myself, call me on it, but what kind of broad gladio to people's awareness, I'm talking in terms of like the general public was the pettiano massacre. I can't remember we got into this last time or not, but basically on May 31st, I guess 72, there was one characterized as a neo-fascist terror attack. There's anonymous call a place to this carbonary barracks in a suburb of the sigrato and the caller said, you know, hey, um, check this car, check this abandoned car, you know, it's an IED and when they did and it like it exploded, it's like they were trying to investigate it and um, it killed these three cops. Um, the perpetrators or the guys who got brought up, who got stuck with the charges on grounds of it. They were uh, this guy named Vincentzo of Inseguera, Carlo Citritini and this guy, Ivano Bacchino and all these guys remember as of this other group called New Order. Um, the official name is the New Order Scholarship Center. It was basically like a think tank and it wasn't a political party. It was kind of like Ellen Deben was like Greece, um, GREC or Gracie, you know, it was um, it basically was what it appeared to be. It was like a research group, you know, and when um, when um, you know, what, where they, who was funding them and where they were getting money from, wasn't exactly clear, but there was a lot of, uh, there's a lot of, there's a lot of money going into it and the Italian social movement, which was a mainstream political party despite, they considered and considered themselves to uh, to be the direct descendant of the, a national fagious party and they kind of are like it's not cap. But the New Order Scholarship Center, they came up based on like a schizo in the Italian social movement. Um, which is interesting. Like as, as the Italian social movement kind of approached mainstream respectability and like the Eisenhower era, which happened to like a lot of like right wing parties in Europe. And during that era too, I mean, that was my like Francis Yaki was like writing speeches for Joseph McCarthy, like very unusual stuff was going on due to, you know, what amount of so I can enduring emergency, you know, this is the era like the Berlin crisis and things, you know, people are convinced that cold war is going to be going to be hot, become hot. This was also in a bunch of guys with real trigger time, you know, like basically the entire first SS like Leap Stendard, they were rotting in prison, septic, had a life sentence, the ock and piper at the death penalty. A bunch of these guys got released during this era, like not because NATO wanted to be nice and not, that because Washington decided they wanted to roll back the present they established at Nuremberg, but they're like, you know, we're we're we're almost certainly going to fight warmer three imminently and we need, we, you know, we need officers and CEOs who've actually fought the Ivans and we can't be going around arresting people for being right wing. That's not going to work. Um, so kind of the mainstream of the Italian social movement, um, our two homicilini who was like their hauncho, like he was basically a moderate for the time. He was like a right wing moderate. He, he wanted to quick up with the Christian Democrats, with the monarchists, you know, basically he wanted to join kind of like the mainstream coalition of like center right parties and um, these guys, uh, like Bogotino and like Vince the Gata and like Citritini, they were like, uh, like that's not happening, like they're four bears. I don't think they were involved at that time, but you know, these, there was a, these schismantic guys, you know, who were, um, who were, uh, who were very much like you bowling anacolytes and they're like, that's bullshit. Like you're not, you're not going to turn us into some like, some like regime approved like like part of the parliamentary apparatus. You know, so these guys founded New Order. Okay. And there was a, and this guy, this guy, this guy, this guy was kind of formalized in 1956. There was a big meeting in Milan. That was the Italian Social Movement Congress. And this guy, Pino Roughti, who was the, he was the, he was like kind of the representative of what became like New Order. He basically stood up and said like, you know, that you're, you're just gracing the honor of like the men who died like fighting the Americans and the Communists. You know, how dare you? You know, you're trying to hijack us. You know, this, this is, this is Jewish. You know, fuck you basically. So like that was that. So these new order guys were kind of like, I remember a shit list anyway. Like, I'm not saying they didn't plant this bomb. Maybe they did or maybe they did. But it's certain multiple purposes to claim these guys did it, even if they did not. And I love Italians and Italy. I'm not saying bad things about those people, but Italian justice is not exactly rigorous or it's going to do process, you know, especially if you're in Europe. If you don't like the Italian government, wait five years, you'll get a new one. Yeah, that too. But that's, that's kind of the context and other, other right wing movements in Europe. And this was a very different circumstance. It wasn't like now. They're, you know, like I'm always talking about these, these literally mentally retarded people who like show off for the whiskey and stuff because they're like too stupid to be alive, but some of the are, they're like, they're like brain eating a meatball or something. But um, but in those, you know, like that nowadays, there's, there's literally like the regime, the globalism. And then there's people resisting it. You know, whether they're salothies or not good guys nor friends, whether they're in Iran, whether they're in Russia, who are our friends, whether they're, you know, but I mean, in the Cold War, there was all these bizarre intrigues and everything was characterized by Cold War dynamics and phenomena. So like even if you didn't want to take a side, you had to insinuate, insinuate yourself somehow into that paradigm. And like otherwise you were just pissing into the wind, you know, so and plus two, you could play people off against each other. You know, like if, you know, in the 50s and 60s and then post a taught, you know, in the 1980s, I mean, basically if you were approached, if you were, if you were a partisan, whether you're in Italy or the, or the Battle of the Country, so the UK, and you've got actual bodies on the industry, you could have approached by some intelligence guy or some NATO type. I mean, you can basically take turns, turns the ham, you know, you're going to start behaving myself. You want me to commit to doing something when you need to fight the communists, you're going to give me a lot of money or a lot of small arms and ammo or like a lot of drugs I can sell or something. You know, and there was a limit to this obviously, but you know, it was a rarefied circumstance. You know, I knew it order also. You know, you know, I'm just going to start with the seminator throughout Europe and in those of the days, you know, 50, 60, 70s, 80s, you know, print media was the only thing, was the only game in town, you know, so and what you could find, especially, especially based on the censorship, censorship regime, not just in the Buddhist Republic, but in the UK and other places, you know, you're going to be like an English translation, that was imprecise, but a whole lot of this material relevant to the right, well, relative to the old resistance in Europe, what's coming out of Italy, you know, you know, nor does publications, they very much valorized the third right and the kingdom of Italy and they're worded. You know, in the independent state of Croatia, and like all the exos powers, they also, they had links with the, the board of public and Rhodesia also, like they had strong support there, you know, it was very anti-modernist, it was very strasserite, you know, and despite what people think, a strasser, you had a, you had a very nuanced view of things, I don't agree with this perspective, but it wasn't just, oh, he was a socialist, but he also didn't like Zionism. It's, there was nothing like that, and he was not pro-Soviet. He said that, you know, Europe has to fight, so I got a concord with Moscow, no matter what the government is there, and that's the way forward. But he basically, the reason why the standard of the Black Front, it was the hammer and sword, it was just because it looks cool. You know, he's, the stressorist hope point was, we've got a return to medieval origins, you know, not in some ridiculous way or not in some blood-ate way, but he's like, you know, this devolved, localized governmental structure is what's natural to Europe. You know, yes, we need a national government, but it's got to be totally federated, and not just a name only. You know, like they, like down to, down to like the talent-ship level, like they basically wanted like local sovereignty, and for matters that, you know, impact, you know, like the folk community, or like Warren Pease, question-the-basic security, like this, that's what a national community ossifies as one, but otherwise, you know, it exists in this totally like organic, kind of like spontaneous and devolved capacity. And that's basically what the third position was up on during the entire Cold War, and the third position, as we think of it, it does not exist anymore. You know, John Bowden made that point too. So I feel like, oh, I'm a third positionist. Well, it doesn't make any sense in America anyway, because there is no American third position. Okay. There was like a, there was, there was, there was a, there was a tathie in right-wing position. It was America first. We shouldn't be fighting the Cold War, but that's something totally different. And in the 20th or century, there's just not a third position anywhere, because there's not, there's not the binary paradigm. There's globalism and everybody opposing it. And those people opposing it, they have different motives opposing it, some of which are, some of which, you know, are like rhyme with one another, some which don't at all, but there's, but there's not two positions. There's one position and there's the resistance. This is actually important. It's not just something that academic types and people like me are into or relate to, you know, kind of ways and pontificly that. Well, people, but people may, I think sometimes people think that you say stuff like that just to, just to upset them because it upsets them. They, you know, they think they're a third positionist and they, you know, in what way, you know, it's like, it's like talking about being right-wing or left-wing and you're talking about the early, you know, 20th century in Europe. That's not the same thing as in Europe as it is in the United States. There's a lot more nuance there. Well, there's also the same guys who think that they think that they think that they're right-wing if they agree on foreign policy with Chuck Schumer, Ben Netanyahu, Joe Biden, and Nancy Pelosi. It's like, I don't care if you don't like the Russians. If you're ethnically cleansing Slavic people on orders of a Zionist for the purpose of dismantling Ukraine and Russia as discrete, ethnocultural entities, you're not right-wing. You're some kind of fuckhead who's killing people for the globalist regime. Like the fact you wear like a little swastika, or a black metal, or because you're like some like, brony Satanist doesn't make you right-wing. It just makes you a fucking idiot. You know, like if I, if I like rob a liquor store when I'm high on crack and say, you know, God saved the king. That doesn't make me a monarchist. It makes me a crackhead who rob liquor stores and says weird things. You know, it's kind of the same thing. And like if Nambelus started like wearing swastika, it's like, Nambelus is so fucking based. I'm gonna go like fucking kid because it's like based. Like they literally would be like that. You know, I guess. But I, that's a different, I don't want to rant about that and get my blood pressure up. But um, the, uh, but you know, yeah, I did, I mean, um, um, I'm not gonna say that. But that's basically like the situation in Italy. And again, like, uh, there's the massacre of these, these, these carbonate, like that, that they, these guys probably, I don't know if they wanted to kill the police. But I, I think they definitely like, we're like, you'll get a crying chart. Despite whatever probably can't have might have been milked out of it by, um, by the Italian government. Because these guys are, these guys are serious like the new order guys. Um, they jumped at gun a little bit. A lot of them didn't have practical experience as part of sins. Like the, like the road to army fraction did, you know, they were properly trained and it's stuff. But you know, they were serious. They were like willing to engage in direct action. But it's time went on. They kind of, they became something of an elite organization. You know, they varied the gate, the gate kept rehard. They always held themselves out as a band guard. It's 10. and see, you know, as time went on, they're kind of quasi paramilitary aspect, became more like a high speed and incredible. You know, at peak, they had about 10,000 members. And these guys, this is only campaign for nuclear disarmament, was a big thing in Europe, which itself is like a cover, not just for like, you know, like Soviet and War's Ag 20 was coming into fun this stuff, but it's also a cover for like real radicals, you know, and communist and anarchists of very extra life. Like new order, they go out and like kick the shit out of these guys when they'd have like protests and these like mass demonstrations. You know, so that caused the government in Rome to kind of like raise its eye, everyone going, okay, like, let's not just like smash these guys. And then I think that had a lot to do with them kind of being the core of gladiode, beyond like what I already suggested, what going into the peculiar conditions of Italy and nuances they're in. But it's like, okay, these guys, these guys will get dirty, okay? You know, they're not afraid to do that. And they've seen it be thirsty for action. You know, so they're not, we can be advised, especially if we, if we send some special operations forces types to kind of bring them up to speed, these guys will probably be like looking forward to some kind of Soviet assault where they can go out and play cowboys and Indians. It's kind of like a pretty storm of stuff. But later on, that's a substantial, that's a percentage of these guys like rejoined the Italian social movement. But the remain kind of like, I think some of that too was them like hemorrhaging off people who weren't really up to the task of doing extra illegal stuff. It's complicated. But there's a lot of historians and not just mainstream historians, but like, you know, like band artist types like us, like read this and say, oh, there was a second schism. I don't think that's true. But that's kind of complicated. I, in the time we all left, I don't want to, I don't want to go on that candid deeply. But the, and not coincidentally, the new one is model was our honor is called loyalty. I'm not going to try and pronounce the Italian variants of that. But obviously, that's, you know, my, yeah, that's Troy. My loyalty is my honor, which is the Vaphan SS model. The similar organization was a double headed ax. You know, like, meaning like we look both right and left, but, you know, the Ross, the, the folk community is the center and like we represent that as a vanguard. You know, and we fight both elements from within when they threaten us. But we will act as like the Shferepunk dub, either if it advances, you know, the interests of the folk community. Um, an important side note to this is what became with the British national front, which today, and um, I, I can't say for sure what the state of the London street is or anything. I read the national, and so if our English and all their friends, um, and Scottish friends, if I'm wrong about this, please weigh in and don't be offended, but I don't think I'm wrong. I think the national front, the British national front, not if you confused with the French organization, which is a lot more mainstream and regime approved. Um, the, I'm even an national front. These is basically a website. Okay. Or like a social media. It's got some social media presence, but like even there are like nobody, not even the father, like a couple of hundred people who fuck with it and don't care about it. But it was a big deal in the 70s and 80s. They're the fourth largest party. Um, there, there was a large party that will live down in the UK for a minute. Okay. They were founded by AK Chesterton, who would have been, um, who had been affiliated with Mosley. Um, he came from, uh, he came from the League of Empire, Loyalist and the first British national party. Um, and he was related to a, he was related to G.K. Chesterton. He'd been born in South Africa or the second board war is family went back to the UK. But um, it, uh, this was, uh, this was during the time when Anna Powell was really kind of carving out like a dissident tendency in the UK to, um, but, um, the national front, it really got clout when John Tindall kind of came to the hell. And Tindall was an interesting guy. Um, I highly recommend his autobiography. It's really, it's good stuff. But, um, you know, Tindall, uh, Tindall's big thing was, you know, stop nine white immigration. And um, he campaigned on a plan from a repatriate, these people now, which absolutely would have been possible at that time. That wasn't, he was just like talking shit. We're going to build a world and it's going to stop all these Mexicans because it's a wall. It was like nothing like that. It was like, you could do this because the political world was there. You know, and, uh, this is one thing we're totally going to hell in Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland is relevant to this gladiate with their position. They can do. I'm not just on a crazy tangent. But Tindall was basically like a mean. He was a pretty mainstream like white nationalist, empire loyalist type guy. He's like, why would pussy funny with the IRA? Fuck these people smash them. Why are we getting flooded with these third world immigrants? Like why, you know, why, how come, you know, why, why the, why the Tories like talking a lot of shit, but we're basically getting state socialism and, and we're not, you know, we're not even a competitive economy anymore. But something started happening within the national front and the NF2, they'd have these mass rallies in London and, um, you know, in, uh, in Liverpool and in Belfas, although it hit Belfas a little bit later. And I'm getting ahead of myself, but the guys who came to constitute the West Belfas forget like see company of the West Belfas forget of the UDA, Johnny Adair, who was, it was an infamous guy and not an admirable guy, very much a gangster. He was a national front skinhead and he was in the rock against communism, seeing and so were all his friends and these guys became see company, okay? And like they were all about the national front. So on the one hand, like comedy teen and these guys, other than, other than, um, the mid-Elster UVA, which became the LVF under Billy Rice, um, Rain. You know, people say like, when I was an outlier, like the far right and loyalist don't have any common ground, that's not really true. Okay, like, um, but we'll get into that in a minute and this totally relates to the third position, schismatics and Italy, which in turn impacted the national front, which in turn found an audience in Ulster, specifically, Belfas. But what happened in the national front was this schism happened. Between what was called the political soldier action and what was the flag group? Because the national front is seen or newsletter was the flag, okay? But essentially, Tendell leads the national front and I get a utility, forms the British national party, which in turn became the BNP of the 90s, or Nick Griffin was at the helm, was interesting because Griffin was part of the political soldier faction. But the, uh, the national front split during this time and proxying when Tendell left, okay? And the official national front, which was the political soldier faction, they started, they started associating with this guy Roberto Fiore, what I believe Griffin actually lived with for a time, not in some weird way, but like they lived in the same rooming house, which was like right wing guys. Um, it was more like their HQ's basically, but the official national front, um, or the, the political soldier faction, they basically are like, why, why are we worried about preserving the monarchy? Why are we worried about trying to bring the UK back to, you know, as it existed between, you know, like, uh, the reign of, you know, the prime leadership at this Rayleigh and, you know, through like Edwardian days, the, you know, basically, uh, probably like when Ramsey McDonald, the KPM, it's like, why is that like our model? You know, we gotta start looking at ourselves as, um, as, uh, as political soldiers, you know, uh, we gotta start viewing, uh, you know, America and its client regime and one day and as our enemy, just as much of the communists are, they started making overachers to cut off the, um, because Kadoff he would, he'd support elements that he thought would advance the goals that um, you know, Kadoff he was very much worse off acted Jason like 110%. But he was not a usual guy and let my friend Big D like in you know the first time I cut Conn and whatever, I mean it was no Rookin and he was talking you know he got swept up in the indictments when Jeff Fort you know was at the Rookins were taking my room Kadoff, which fourth day in 12 and spent on dope to put on the street and Kadoff he's like fuck this guy I put it in on him but you know like Big D said he's like the a lot of the Rookin leadership was all about that but so were like these terms as guys in Europe okay and um and of course the like the flag group um you know they they were like this is bullshit you know you don't you don't you don't associate with non-whites without radicals you know a all of that okay um but as the national front was doing that um the uh you know and um and it's kind of stress right stuff was was being like widely disseminated at least within like right winged circles um you know at this time like in 1986 when the two were the party formally split um it was probably about they probably about like five thousand like like hardcore members like paid dues and were like right like on record and all that stuff and about uh probably three thousand of them like like stay with like the mainstream national front but two thousand like clicked up with you know like the political soldier like official national front um um political soldier wing but they had you know in the UK only here like if you got a form of play you've got a political party like you paid dues you know it's like a membership organization and you've got supporters who aren't at all involved in like the membership side of things so despite like what seems like call tree numbers for like a protest party that's actually pretty good for the time and like I said these guys could these guys could get a crowd in the streets in London particularly if they were you know if they were if they were clashing you know with the it came in for nearly disarmament types or uh or like radical left types because like people didn't like those types you know they just didn't you know I mean it um and of this day I think of the man this I realized London has changed dramatically since then and since I was there in the late 90s but I I'm sure it's kind of like shite town there's there is kind of like both a silent majority type element that gets mad when they see that stuff and a lot of these non like people whether they should be there or not it's a different question but a lot of them don't like that shit either but um you know so they have plus still like an animal front even it's early iteration you know under tindal it did stand it did contest it did contest elections but it viewed itself as a vanguardist tendency um when it did uh that change really after tindal left they decided they wanted to become almost like a mainstream party in some ways you know like a mass membership organization this is one of the reasons for this skizz in my belief because for something like for an organization like that like that failed with you know it's not it's not just that you've got to adopt a vanguardist posture if you're in the United States or the UK or or the EU these days like in those days even when there's kind of more room to participate in formal processes you you couldn't you couldn't just try and like reinvent yourself it's kind of like the dissident toys or something like or it it wouldn't like just just by like sheer value you would be diluted and uh and to be coming in effectual like regardless of the fact that you know there's not there's not real social capital between them we're gonna say putting people in an organization like a million members or something but any event um and now that was a big thing the clinical soldier faction they they refuse to stand for a protect contest election this but bring it to um bring it uh bring it to the to the northern Ireland situation and kind of how gladio which in turn kind of vaporize the third position which in turn impact like an active conflict on the ground in ways unforeseen this guy named Andy Terry he was born in Belfast you know some poor family son of like an ex ex-ex-Pretish army soldier um you grew up in the loyalist heartland on shangol road um and his family and many others um yet like uh moved uh to bali Murphy and then knew barnsley like when his dad needed work like you know some of the things in in the late 60s it was like a huge recession and you know across the UK but I mean Belfast was especially hit hard and when the troubles kept on in 69 um the family uh they got ethnically clamst like they're they got attacked so they go back to the shaggle with Terry is an ancient Scottish name so I'm sure like the Terry's run the shick list of the the provost anybody else like when it first jumped off yeah um it is roots could be traced to that really says the ulcer plantation so this this guy had like loyalism in his DNA okay um I'm not saying there's good or bad that's effect like it's just effect but so Terry clicks up with the he first clicks up with the uvf they liked him because he was serious and cough and he was literally from the shangol road and his family had been attacked by out of the provost or adjacent vigilantes but Terry looks at the uvf and he's like you know these guys are like the uvf soul notion first of all I mean it you know it was the second iteration which came about in 65 and in which Terry joined they were very very selective they looked at themselves as direct action element to job it was to kill the IRA like yes they dropped a lot of civilian bodies too just to terrorize people but their idea was we're not a mass membership organization we're not a vigilante grouping you know we're an elite element we're a counter terrorist element you know we attack the provost and we kill them you know Terry's own thing is like look like my family my family got murked in and like kicked out of our home you know we we need somebody to protect Protestant areas from this kind of thing yes the uvf said you know what that's not what we do so Terry joins the uda well firstly joined the shanghil defense association and there was a bunch of quote defense associations that got set up in Protestant hoods especially in interfaiths areas and basically they'd organize unlike quasi military lines you know and and like vigilantes um whether it's here in the American South or whether it's an ulster that's just like what we do you know that's just what that's what ulsters got to do okay um as the as these defense organizations like started street fighting with their cat like neighbors and and what the provost in and with other elements um they started getting coalesced into a single uh element which became the ulster defense association which at peak I think had about 50,000 members in uda's notion they weren't outlawed until 1992 because they incorporated above board and they said we're at defense organization and like in event Dublin intervenes we're gonna go to the rifle and we're gonna attack or an event you know we get sold out by one then we're gonna fight you know that was their whole deal and uf was the common name for the direct action element which was ulster freedom fighters okay those are their shooters that's what they call themselves and they claimed that they weren't the same organization and a lot of people on the provost side as well as just kind of observers are critical of how this whole thing was handled by the crown they say like well you know uf i was very much like in part of crown proxy and that's why they just let it do its thing that's not all it's it's more murky than that okay but tary he he developed a reputation for two things he was a guy who kind of raised hell within the organization for like strongly heterodox ideas and he was he was very very tough so like the men respected him even though he thought that he was kind of spinning off into crazy territory i said all respect it's just a fact um he um Um. Terry is kind of the zenith of this tendency. And May 9th, '74, there's the Ulster Wormter's Council strike. And. Terry knew a bunch of these guys in like the in the belt fast and Ulster-wide labor movement. Because he'd been like a shop steward. Like back in his like days, as I got factory laborer. You know, um, so he was, he was somewhat close to this guy Glen Bar, who was the strike leader. So like the UDA in those days, they had like a very social, wasn't that, you know? And like the, the, the worst council strike, like basically like shut down with Dolphaz. And this was still when, you know, like the UK was at a county, relying on national industry. This like really, really food-barred things. So Terry got this reputation as like this kind of like labor leader and like hero of the working man. Like what's he was? That wasn't cap. He was those things. But he also was like this like rabid loyalist. So they like raised the UDA's profile. Because like people, they're in a forward bend like these guys are just like a bunch of like Yahoo, vigilantes and killers and like sectarian whackers. They're like, "Hop, maybe these guys like actually like serious people or, and whether we like them or not, they're going to have like a serious impact on how the crisis resolves in Northern Ireland." But Terry, he was a big stressorist. He was like reading the kind of content that like the new order was putting out. He was like reading like political soldiers stuff that the national front was putting out. He took out, he started putting out essays in like the UDA magazine about, "Oh, we got a push for an independent ulster." Like Ian Paisley's a bastard. Like fuck these politicians who are trying to like piggyback on the fact we're fighting the war. You know, Terry famously banned like Ian Paisley from like this one UDA meeting. Like physically is like, you like pushed him back like get the fuck out of here. That made a bunch of people really upset. They're like, "You can't do that. He's not going to do it the fucking way." Yeah, what are you going to do about it? You know, so maybe he had more balls in good sense in some ways. But point being, this is like when the third position like came to Ulster, which at that point was like a key conflict cycle. So that's kind of when and people started like connecting the dots. I don't like mean like, you know, like the man in the street. I mean, he's like academic types and these military sociologists and these guys were very much kind of on the public affairs and psychological warfare side, special operations. They're like, "What's happening here?" Like maybe this isn't like a great thing that this third position stuff is like spinning off from what was a very manageable and constructive, you know, mission profile and gladio. And I believe that was the earliest stuff that's super critical of gladio. It kind of got, it kind of went into circulation again during the premiership of who's the Italian guy who likes the ladies and died his hair and all that. Bro, let's go to, yeah. Yeah, he, um, Bro, let's go. And he was part of this weird like quasi-mason lodge that people, and like a bunch of these guys, like they're like, you tell them, like, "Oh, that's part of clasps." So these kind of infamous type guys and like other kind of people like that, they said, "Sterequally going stuff like gladiol." Like it's this big conspiracy. Like not, and like a lot of the kind they were dropping had come about in like the later 70s as people were kind of like saying like, "Gladiol is a terrorist tendency and here's why I look what's happening in Delfast." You know, look at these cops who got blown up and Italy, like looking at all these bad guys who are, you know, they're fashious. They got crazy ideas. They're sitting around reading, reading stress-risk propaganda. That's kind of like what brought it into, kind of into the, into the conscious mind of some of these people. And um, this is actually important. You know, it's not, I realize I got like a strong research interest in things and like I've done in Ireland with that, that that that that that that it's significant for what we're talking about. And um, you know, like I said to like as it later on, yeah, after theory was killed, you know, this kind of third force in a loyalist paramilitarism or third way rather. Um, third position in paramilitarism that kind of adored man. And like I said, like I put Billy Wright in a camp, even though conditions were different by the time he became powerful on the on the street. And uh, but this guy, uh, Terry's body was a scutty Sammy Dutty. And uh, one of the, there's a, um, there's a, there's a conflict resolution outreach center in Belfast, like named for Dutty, which is interesting. But he was a guy, he's a guy with reputation as like a thinker in the UDA. You know, a lot of these UDA guys are very committed to their politics, but a lot of them are kind of like brawlers and like rough necks and, and like action oriented guys. They were the kinds of guys we're prone to like like disgusting political theory with you. You know, but um, you know, uh, Terry and uh, Dutty, absolutely worth those kinds of guys, as well as being, you know, very, very, very hard dudes. But that, um, the, uh, Terry, uh, he was one of the guys who founded the, the quote, the new Ulster political research group. They, they, they became famous or within conflict, um, study circles because they published this paper called, uh, beyond the, beyond the religious divide. And it reiterated the call for an independent Ulster or at least I could devolve, a truly devolved, uh, political structure to be implemented and finding some way to make peace with the provost, um, and some sort of like organic capacity, which was really, which was really, which was really interesting, um, I think, um, but that, uh, you know, he, um, this is this really, if you look at people, I don't know about like what the real world impact was of, of gladio and whatnot. I don't think that's, I mean, beyond the fact, there was a series of insane murders in Belgium that people think was gladio with Jason. I don't think that's the case. We can talk about that in another, I've been think, playing with the idea of doing some content unlike the big like conspiracy theories, like the things that we, the ones that we think are worth addressing, you know, I know it's just like stupid, but, um, that would be the time to take up something like that, but that's basically what I have on gladio, man, and then like, um, just like it's an addendum or an epilogue, um, you know, this, um, people got to understand too, you know, the original man, you know, special operations forces, it wasn't the train navy seals to be like direct action super commandos, you know, who, who deployed a landlocked countries and get on target of individual guys were thought to be, you know, tell the anti operatives and like penetrate our targets and then kill them. That's like not what they were for. Like special operations forces as Kennedy envisioned it as a William Odom, who was very much big army, but as he, you know, he had, he was, he was instrumental in NATO war planning the way he envisioned and they're rolling the first structure. It was when Warsaw Pact overruns us, we're gonna, we're gonna parachute or glide in. You guys who look like the people in theater and talk to the language are gonna click up with these gladio guys on the ground and you're gonna train them at how to do things operation late and you're gonna lead them and you're basically gonna play Rick dawn in occupied West Germany or in Italy. Like that was the idea, you know, it took time for this kind of develop into a mainstream idea and like by the late 80s, like yeah, that everybody took that for granted, but this was viewed as weird and crazy and dangerous and shady. Pretty much by everybody. And that's one of the reasons green berets, like nowadays like the spare part of the, army, especially operations forces. Until the 90s, people like to green berets is you're a weirdo, you like killing people, you're probably a fascist and you're creepy and you will never get promoted above light kernel problem. That's that's not just like something in Rambo movies. That was like the way it was okay And it wasn't clear like how in a general war This would actually develop because it never you never know when you have a novel concept Don't be wrong like this this idea of this offer is for us is absolutely correct That was a very forward-looking idea and it was a very balls the idea and it was absolutely the way I You know already command Europe should have been looking at things But it was not something that people felt comfortable with And of course there was a concern to like what if these guys like go native Which was entirely possible? Okay, but that's That's where a lot of this kind of strange Stuff came from in terms of cap about Gladio being this conspiracy mean part of was this typical Typical lefty stuff about oh the government is actually fascist and doing all these bad things like the government is terrible But it's not because they're like secret fascists or something obviously, but the a lot of the concern about this kind of stuff That's where it came from but it did despite the fact that you know World War III and ever came there was a direct impact on the politics of Europe and Even in conflict zones that Northern Ireland and those guys who constituted that the core of these tendencies that came up with gladio We they are part of what we are I mean if you're somebody who you know is Finds kind of cause with me. I mean, I'm not I'm not speaking for anybody else, you know where I say we but You know, so that's you've got to know you've got to know you're on heritage not just um You know The ethnos and and your familial lore and Your your race and your nationality like you've got to know like where are these ideas that you Commit to or come from and that's part of it I hope that wasn't too scattered shot like I said I don't I'd either we can wrap up now if they don't frankly have much else and I'm not feeling good So forgive me of um, yeah, yeah, no problem. I have two questions. Um, yeah one where were you thinking of Mark Dutrof when you talked about the serial killer or He's he's another one who's also affiliated with that. No, these guys in Belgium They pulled these high-incident robberies where they'd store them like a grocery store or something like not even like a tournament set They say this is a robbery empty your pockets then they take like the manager and they can open the safe and They take like like like like you quote like $300 or something Then they kill everybody and Witnesses it's see them like loading into this van and it was guys with like Glocks and H and K's and Stair like like military weapons like wearing gloves We're like in shape and it's like so these guys are killing like five They're catching murder liability for five bodies to steal like a few hundred dollars and they did this like six or seven times Like they were never identified, but guys doing that got a stop like got like like like three to six guys and show up in Like military gear with like ball of clubs or ski masks. This is a robbery. No one's gonna get hurt But then they kill everybody And a lot of people like These guys were gladiol operatives, you know trying to scare people But it's like why would they be doing that? It's not like subsequently the government of Belgium's like this is martial law It was just like they were doing this and nobody knew why the government was being weird about it definitely Said people are like oh no, they were just training for you know like on target direct action mission It's like that's not a trained people and if they're gonna do that you know what you do or what you would do You'd say this is a trap house see if you guys can get in there kill everybody and not die Like that's how you do it you want to say there's some pensioners and like women and kids shopping for groceries like shoot them Oh, I know nobody has any weapons like that's not that doesn't make any sense But I'm not feeling well so I'm in some brain fog, but I'll Do chose another one though in that case also makes like no sense But okay, all right. Well, then I'll let you um. I'll let you get going here. Yeah, just do quick plugs Yeah, man, thank you Pete I've got a lot of content in the can for my pod and People like my homie Jefferson Lee and like my friend Anthony Romando they've been like helping me with all this stuff, which is awesome So there's a lot of fresh stuff on my substag Where the that's what the podcast is another good stuff. It's real time is 777. Sofstag.com I'm on social media at real capital R E A L underscore number seven Lowercase H O M A S 777 Um, I'm on t-gram and Instagram My dear friend here a creek he puts out like branded merch that we make because um Just like stuff that I think is cool because I'm kind of like a t-shirt guy and like a close guy Um, if you'd include that like in the description because I can never remember like what the um What the website is but yeah, that's so where I'm at then I promise um I'll be better in a few days and um again, forgive me if this wasn't up to this enough man No, this was all good. This was uh, this was good. There was a lot there um, yeah I'll include everything that you um you asked all right That's great. Thank you, Pete. All right, talk to you next time