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Speaker 3Even dating. Like, these apps, they're out of control. Like, they are truly out of control.
Speaker 4It's been a while. What's, like, the newest one now? Is it Hinge? Is it?
Speaker 3I don't know, man. Hinge, Bumble, Tumble, Tinder. Like, what? I have the weirdest names.
Speaker 4I heard that you can sort by astrology signs now, and people do that.
Speaker 3Listen, man. I don't know. I joined, and it's like sensory overload, right? Like, you got to scroll through pictures. And, like, you have to sell. You have to sell yourself. Like, pick me. This is why you should pick me. And, you know, I had to delete the apps because it was, honestly, it was affecting me in such a negative way where I would start to say to myself, what's wrong with me? How come nobody wants me?
Speaker 5Those old patterns.
Speaker 3I'm not good enough. I'm not pretty enough. I'm fat. It's just like, you know, and I was telling my therapist, my best friend, and I had to delete the apps because it was just like, this is nonsense. You know? I know tons of people that have found their person, and that's great. I hate you. But. Um. Bye.
Speaker 4, bye. What a great day I have. I'm, I'm looking forward to today. I woke up this morning, woke up to a nice, beautiful text message from my good friend who said, Hey, do you want to speak tonight? And my first response in my head was like, well, I have to go. So how do I get out of this? And then my second response was like, that's kind of rude that he's asking me. So last minute. And then I read the second part of the text message and it said, the speaker's sick. And then my third thought was what a beautiful gift that I get to be of service in recovery. So, you know, all about that. People ask you to speak all the time and, um, people, for anyone that wants to know Caitlin more, you did a episode with me. Um, I don't know what, when was that last year? I think it was in the summer.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 4And that's how we met and became friends and that's a cool story. But if you want to hear more about your story that is on that episode today, we're going to talk about relationships and like, I guess, getting current as well. So we're going to talk about relationships and like, I guess, getting current as well. So we're going to talk about relationships and like, I guess, getting current as well.
Speaker 5So we're going to talk about relationships and like, I guess, getting current as well.
Speaker 4Cause this stuff is, is rampant in recovery. So like, how long have you been in recovery now?
Speaker 3So I've been sober 11, uh, April 30th will be 11 years. Nice. Um, in and out of this program for like 20 years.
Speaker 4And so you've been, you've, you've had an, a lot, you've had more time sober than, than high. Would you agree with that? Or close to?
Speaker 3Almost. Yeah. Well, 12 to 26. So almost.
Speaker 4Was when you were using and, and so you've had a lot of experience with feelings and emotional sobriety and let me, let me, let's start with this. What is, um, what is like, what does emotional sobriety mean to you today?
Speaker 3So it's funny you ask, cause I actually went to a treatment center, um, or a program rather for codependency in September. And that's one of the things.
Speaker 4You just went to it?
Speaker 3Yeah. In September. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, it was super cool. And part of me was kind of like, why am I going? Like I'm single, I'm not in a relationship. So, you know, like how am I codependent? But it was so crazy what I learned and the emotion, so there's getting sober, right? We're recovered or we're, we're in recovery. And then the emotional sobriety for me is just kind of like that consistency piece. Like the emotional awareness, the emotional regulation. The, you know, your, your nervous system being regulated. I think like I lived most of my life in fight or flight. And even in early recovery, I was just like, well, I would say probably 75% of my recovery. I was go, go, go, never stopping. It was always for someone else, whether, you know, it was one of my partners or a sponsee or, you know, my job. Like I just always kind of lived my life for someone else. Service almost. Exactly. But there's service. And then there's just kind of being selfish, right? Because I was taking away from time with myself. I was taking away time from being with family because I was going to do service or I was going to speak at a meeting, which is great. And I'm, I will always say yes, but I think, um, you know, the one thing I learned in this program was about boundaries, right? That buzzword that everybody talks about, but you don't realize that, you know, we learned about like boundaries with time. I'm like, I'm not going to do that. I'm like, you know, known for being late for everything. Um, and that's something that I really had to look at because they didn't realize, right. Um, instead of like saying no or saying yes, I'll be there at that time and keeping my word, I show up late. Um, and then, you know, we talked about like sexual boundaries, which was like a really big thing because, you know, I mean, like we talked in, in your last episode or the last, my last episode with you, um, about the trafficking. Abuse and, and all of that, right. Like my history with sex and my history with relationships, like intimate relationships, um, was so unhealthy because I was just like, I was just a people pleaser, you know? And it wasn't just like sex, but it was like, I'll do this for you. Um, what can I buy for you? What can I do for you? How can I make you love me? Right. And, and I think that's what I'm learning today about that codependency piece and, and, you know, allowing myself. Like time to heal from all of it, you know, because like, you know, I'm going to therapy and I'm working through all this stuff that I thought I dealt with and most certainly did not because we just kind of like push it down, right? Like being sober and accumulating time is great. Um, but it's more so the like quality and I would say over the, the last year since I, I separated from my husband, um, you know, just learning things about myself, that fear of being alone, that fear of never finding anybody or no one's ever going to love me because I'm broken. Um, you know, like just telling myself all of these lies, um, or the best that I need to find someone else to make me happy. Exactly. And, um, you know, and of course everybody wants to be in a loving relationship and have everything be great. But I think spending this time with myself and learning about, you know, the, the, the things that I've learned about what do I like and what I don't like and, you know, dealing with my patterns of behavior from previous relationships, like it's really intense when you actually sit down and you look at it, you know, cause I mean like we're going back to like childhood, right? I'm so familiar with chaos, you know, and not even in like the using and drugs and alcohol in that kind of way, but just, I know what, like I pick these people that are familiar for me, right? I like. I'll use an example. I absolutely love my dad. Like we have such a great relationship today. Um, and my mom, she passed away, but you know, again, such a good person, two very good people. Um, but my childhood was there. My father was really absent and you know, no fault of his own. He was working in another country to support his family, but like, that's kind of what was familiar for me, you know? So I would chase and chase and chase and I needed him to be proud of me and I, I wanted his attention. I wanted him to be proud of me. I wanted him to be proud of me. I wanted him to be proud of me. I wanted him to be proud of me. I wanted him to be proud of me. I wanted him to be proud of me. I wanted him to be proud of me. you know, no fault of his own. He was working in another country to support his family, but like, that's kind of what was familiar for me, you know? So I would chase and chase and chase, and I needed him to be proud of me. And I wanted his attention and I wanted him to love me. And you know, I would do anything to get that. And it's almost like that pattern has carried through my whole life. Um, you know, I, I think in recovery, I've been in two relationships, um, and both, you know, not, not bad people at all, but we definitely were not compatible. Um, I think that, you know, when, when we're in a relationship, when I'm in a relationship, um, I used to think, oh my God, I just wasted this amount of time. I just wasted, you know, my twenties. I just wasted my thirties. I'm 37 now. You know, my, my time is ticking like we were talking about. Um, but I think that every relationship is, is worth it. It's worth something in that moment, in that time. Like I, I learned a lot from my last relationship. I learned a lot and, um, you know, and I'm grateful and I wouldn't change any of it. I, you know, like he had a great family and I made a lot of friends. Like it's, there were a lot of good memories and good things that happened. Um, but I also got to learn a lot about myself. I don't think I had necessarily enough healing time between relationships, uh, because my ex before that, I think like it wasn't, it wasn't very long, you know, like I didn't have enough time to really kind of sit down and like grieve because that's what you have to do, right? Like you got to feel uncomfortable. Change happens when we're uncomfortable. And I went from one relationship to the next because it's scary to be alone. It's like, it's, it's really scary sometimes. Um, and you know, and, and I don't think that that's bad. I think there is a healthy amount of fear that we have to feel. Um, yeah.
Speaker 4I did a whole podcast episode on this yesterday because I, I like being alone, but I'm a, an extroverted person. And so I was doing some research about it and the word solitude came up and I hadn't really heard that word for a while, but it was essentially being alone without feeling lonely. And so there's moments, you mentioned self-care as well. You mentioned a lot of good things there, but there's moments where I can practice self-care or I can be selfish and I'm self-obsessed and I'm thinking, you know, being selfless is thinking of yourself less. Right. And so I was having a moment yesterday when, when you called me and this is again, how God works for me when I can't work for myself is like, I didn't feel like calling anyone and getting out of it because I snort self-pity like a drug. I do like, I love it. It's if, if I'm in self-pity and again, I'm repeating myself because I did an episode on this yesterday, so it's fresh, but if I'm in self-pity, it means that I don't have to change anything because it's not my fault and I'm, I'm the victim. I can play the victim card and you know, don't you feel, don't you see I'm working hard and I'm not getting the results that I want for me. Exactly. But there's a difference between self-care, like you said, and, and just like sitting in your shit and being miserable and hoping that somebody will come save your self, save the day. So when, you know, I had three people called me yesterday and got me out of it. I went for a walk and I got out of it, but I want to ask where, where, where did that come from? Where did the sort of red flag come up or flag come up where you're like, I need to work on this again. Like how does that, so people can understand because you mentioned emotional sobriety. If I'm not aware of my emotions, they'll run my whole life. So that's a great question. And it's such
Speaker 3a loaded question because, and I just want to also say like, I am no expert. I'm just the expert of my own story and kind of like my journey, because even right now, and I'll, I'll get back to your question. Like I, I learn what healthy relationships look like. Through other people, right? Like my aunt and uncle, fabulous, healthy relationship. I know it's possible, right? Like I see them, they've been married for so long. They have open communication. They, you know, disagree with one another respectfully. They're loving. They have an exciting life, right? They do things together. They do things together. And even if it like, you know, at the end of the, like, I just spent a week up North with my family and like, it's just, it's so crazy that these simple little things, like the end of the day, we would watch it. You know, we're doing absolutely nothing, but we're doing everything, you know? Those are the moments that I just absolutely love that doesn't need to be replaced with a partner or the love of my life. I spent time with family and that was enough for me, you know? But to get back to your question, yeah. So I think it, I think it was a lot of different things. But I think the biggest thing for me last year, before I went to this program as a friend of mine had actually gone to the program and he said, you know, I learned a lot and you need to go. And I was like, thanks, buddy. That's great. But at the end of the day, it's like this, right? I'm bored and I want to download a dating app just to kind of see, right? I'm bored and I want to like reach out to somebody that I used to talk to. And it's like, for what? You know, like what, like what is coming from that? Absolutely nothing except for the pain, you know?
Speaker 4It's like an itch that needs to get scratched.
Speaker 3Yeah. Like just sit by myself and do nothing. Right. I'm like, I've been conditioned to always need somebody. And like, I'm a very independent person. I do everything myself. I rarely reach out and ask for help. You know, I just carried this, I bought this like vanity off marketplace.
Speaker 6You love marketplaces.
Speaker 3I fucking love it. And I carried it up the stairs myself. This thing was like 120 pounds. Anyways, but we digressed here. My point is that I know that I am capable of doing things myself. And that's kind of my problem sometimes. And, and like, I don't think my problem is going to be finding my person or finding someone to spend my life with, or however you want to phrase that, my soulmate. I think. I need to start reaching out to the people I already have. So, you know, I've moved a couple times and we call it my moving crew, right? Like I got a good solid couple of people that have helped me move like three times. Um, but we show up for each other, right? Like we genuinely show up and I am, I saw this video this morning where somebody was like, you know, reach out to me anytime. Like I'll be there in a heartbeat and that's me. And then the person was like, yeah, same. And then the person goes, no, no, no, no. It's fine. I can do it myself. It's different. Right. I'm going to be a burden to you. And that's exactly how I felt my whole life. I will show up. No questions asked. It does not matter what time of day it is to help somebody. But when it comes to me, it's different. And that's the problem, right? And that's when I realized that everything, I had no problem showing up for everybody else. It didn't even matter who you were really could be, you know, somebody new in the program. It could be like a family member, an ex, a friend. I'm there. I'm, I'm willing to help you like above and beyond. Um, but you know, last September when I had kind of realized, like, I, I am not so good with boundaries, right? Like I want to do everything. I want to help everyone. Um, you know, we joke about it in meetings and stuff, but like, there's a room full of a hundred people and 99 people are like, Caitlin, Anthony, you guys are the dopest people I've ever met. But there's one person that's like, absolutely not. They're terrible people. I hate them. I'm set on that one person. And I, I become obsessive. What did I do? What's wrong with me? Right. Even today. It's like, I know we joke around all the time. Like, why don't I have a boyfriend? What's wrong with me? And it's like, it's just not, it's not the right time, you know? And like, I look at my single friends and you know, my best friend and she's like genuinely happy. She loves her life. She, she bought a house not that long, like a couple of years ago, which she got done, you know, like she is content being alone. And like, I love that. That is attractive to me, you know, because I've been so against it for so long because of that fear. Right. Like I need you to tell me I'm pretty, I need you to tell me I'm good enough because I didn't know how to do those things for myself. And today, right. Like I'm not perfect. I'd be lying. Like we joke all the time about like, when am I going to find my person? And, and like, it it's going to happen, right? It's that having that faith and, um, you know what you, you texted me the other day about, you know, being that person. Do you know what I mean? Like being the version of yourself. And I think I have not been the version of myself that I need to be to show up in a healthy relationship. I'm exactly yet. Um, and like, that's totally okay. You know? And it's okay to like, feel sad and it's okay to feel, you know, like lonely, but these are healthy feelings. You know, you communicate with your support system, but yeah, going back to this program, it was amazing. I encourage everybody to go to this program. It's like six days of intensive work.
Speaker 4When you say treatment, like, are you locked there?
Speaker 3Well, you're not locked. You're an adult willing to go treatment. I'm just like, oh boy. So yeah, there's like, there's two sides. So there's the like substance use program and then the codependency program.
Speaker 4How much better did you feel on the other side?
Speaker 3Oh, bro. Like so, so good, but you know what? It's it's like, it was cool though, because, um, like we had meetings that were joined as well. And so you get to see both sides and like, you know, being like a double winner where I was like, yeah, like, you know, I'm in sobriety or I'm in recovery from substance use, but, um, you know, like they would call us the Cody's and I'd never heard that before. I was like, what's a Cody. Um, but I got to connect with other women who were going through the exact same thing, but totally different, you know, but that's the thing when we talk about in meetings, all of the feelings are exactly the same. When I start comparing myself to, well, you know, I'm, I'm not in a physically abusive relationship. I'm not in an emotionally abusive relationship anymore. So why am I here? Like, I remember on my first day, I was listening to these beautiful women share their feelings and their situations. And I, I thought to myself, like, why am I here? But you know, I stayed and we started working through it. And I remember being in one of these groups, like I talked about boundaries, right. And we started talking about like, you know, time management, which, you know, I need to work on progress. Yeah, I was early. I would just like to say that, um, you know, and like relationships, whether it's intimate, personal, whatever. Um, and then the thing that really got me, and I kind of mentioned this earlier was the sexual boundaries because, um, that's kind of where I had my aha moment. And I had a full breakdown because like we talk about it but you know like boundaries boundaries boundaries yeah whatever um they broke it down and I remember sitting there saying to myself I don't think I've ever really enjoyed being intimate with somebody um because I've never been able to open up emotionally and really connect on that level um and that doesn't mean that like I didn't have fun like yes I've had fun but I mean really connect with your person um and I just remember sitting there and having a breakdown because you know like I I lost my virginity to rape at a very young age and that kind of set the tone for my life right and then the abuse the trafficking you know all the trauma and so I just kind of was like as long as the other person is happy I'm happy and that is so unhealthy you know and I didn't realize that I just thought I'm a really nice person so I'll take care of the other person I want to make sure they're happy and all of their needs are mad and whatever um you know whether it's cooking dinner cleaning pleasing like I I need to change who I am to suit the other person and so this program really just kind of kiboshed all of my old ideas because I was like wow I really do belong here you know and and it turns out like it's not just like I said intimate no yes I'm single but it's family relationships it's my sponsees it's work it's you know like I'm on leave from work right now and that was like the scariest decision I've I've ever made because I was like I'm gonna get fired I'm you know like no you're not gonna get fired I'm not gonna get fired for taking care of myself you know like the separation was really hard and it took a really big toll on me and um you know being able to set that boundary at work and just say like I need to take some time to heal and work on myself so I can continue to show up and be the best version of myself at work in a relationship in my friendships at meetings like I cannot show up and do my best if I am like barely treading water
Speaker 4and also without masks too right like because I can do like I just need to show up as Anthony Anthony Anthony Anthony Anthony absolutely and that's a work in progress all the time because yeah I talk about this all the time the stage character yeah that we present to people in our in different settings you know my my friends it's like I'm all successful I've got it going I'm making a lot of money at work my recovery community it's I'm working the program to the like I am member number one I am doing this thing I am tapped in I am of service I'm doing the best and I don't have problems right like I don't have issues I don't you know I don't need to tell you about my problem and that's how I relapsed last time was was that state was presenting that that person in in in settings where I was like you know no no no I'm good right and so you it comes back to yeah like authenticity and I mean intimacy is funny because a lot of people think intimacy is just sexual but it's not it's like you know you could just be sitting with someone and the way I understand it is just complete vulnerability like there's a thousand percent no hiding no there's this is me all of me well yeah
Speaker 3and there's sex okay cool but the intimacy right like that deep honest conversation being vulnerable being raw being able to like share your soul with someone you know like I think for the longest time I was like so full of shame because I really truly felt damaged you know I was like how is anyone gonna love me like I you know like all of the abuse that I've experienced all of the terrible things that I've done to other people in my act of addiction like I'm no good um and so I think having the friendships that I do today where we're able to have that intimacy those honest conversations um you know my friends hold me accountable and it's like the coolest thing ever because we might like chirp back and forth and be like whatever you know and then we come back and it's it's fine because we have a healthy relationship you know and um yeah it's just it's just crazy like even even dating like these apps they're out of control
Speaker 4like they are truly out of control it's been a while what's like the newest one now is it
Speaker 3hinge is it I don't know man hinge bumble tumble tinder like what I have the weirdest names I heard
Speaker 4that you can sort by astral astrology signs now and people do that and listen man I don't know
Speaker 3I I joined and it's like it's like sensory overload right like you got to scroll through pictures and like you have to sell yourself like pick me this is why I'm here I'm here I'm here I'm you should pick me and you know um I had to delete the apps because it was honestly it was affecting me in such a negative way where I would I would start to say to myself what's wrong with me how come nobody wants me those old patterns right I'm not good enough I'm not pretty enough I'm fat I'm it's just like you know and uh I was telling my therapist my best friend and I had to delete the apps because it was just like this is nonsense you know um I I know tons of people who are like I'm not pretty enough I'm fat I'm it's just like you know and uh I was telling my that have found their person and that's great I I hate you but um you know I know a guy he got married one of my good friends they met on tinder absolutely and and that's great right but I think like I'm such an empath and I take things so personally it's like how come they haven't responded in two days like what what are you doing what what are you that busy I need to change my profile picture because don't you know that I respond immediately which is terrible by the way that is a terrible lack of boundaries um um you know I my phone lights up I see that they've texted me or someone's called me I stop what I'm doing to pick up the phone um and it's actually not healthy I thought it was a great trait I was like look at me I'm on the ball and then you got to keep up with that you know like
Speaker 4it catches up with you then you start having expectations of other people right exactly you know this but I'm the opposite of that and that's something I need to work on it's not just you I'm terrible with answering yeah yeah and uh sometimes I you know I'll give the excuse that it's just an excuse I'm not good enough I'm not good enough I'm not good enough I'm not good enough I think that I answer on my phone and then I look back and I didn't actually answer it's like no I
Speaker 3just I don't even know what it is and and I do that too right like and the problem is is it's like I'm like a child like out of sight out of mind so once I've read your message and and I forget to respond or I'm like oh I'll do it later it gets downloaded being like one of my best friends and he calls me he's like you never called me back and I genuinely feel so bad right so that's why I'm like I see it I need to act now um but but yeah like I don't know it's it's hard these apps
Speaker 4are just it's too much do you have any good stories like any crazy dates that you would yeah can you share one oh my god off the top of your head I'm putting you on the spot yeah no I
Speaker 3can think of quite a few I mean I was catfished like so bad oh my god what is the purpose of that I don't know because he didn't ask me for money he didn't ask me for like anything at all but he like refused to facetime and I was just kind of like okay whatever right um but then like we'd go to meet up and he would like cancel last minute and I was like I don't know I don't know anyways it turned out he like stole some um there's a I don't know a gay guy that lives in Chicago and his profile pictures he took his pictures and used them and I was like what is the purpose of this so like when I finally found out I was like why did you do this he's like oh my friends just dared me and I was like you know you're kind of messing with people's feelings though you know like and so anyways that one was kind of kind of sucky not so funny but the other one like you have to do something you have to do something you have to do something you have to do this thing so people know you're a real person like okay um so they're like yeah like let's set up a facetime and so I set up a facetime with with someone and he started like jerking off and I was
Speaker 4like right like he like licked his hand and put it down his pants for the company like you had to
Speaker 3you had to verify it with no like you you like when you match with someone just so you know that you're like a real person yeah no no and so we were like let's facetime because we hit it off right I was like that chemist chemistry right the virtual chemistry was there and like we facetimed and then he ended up like yeah and I'm like are you he's like yeah and I'm like what like delete like what is wrong with
Speaker 6people you know and I have I wonder if that ever works like I wonder it must have worked
Speaker 3behind their screens they hide behind their ipads and their computers just you know like matching with people and it's like the endless amount of texting where like you just want to create a word document saying about me and like every time you match copy and
Speaker 4paste just sending it out it's it's emotionally exhausting and you know and it's unfair because
Speaker 3what happens is is you get all of these people that aren't serious or say like I want a long-term relationship or I want to get married or my life partner and they really just want to get laid which is cool like you do you I love that for you but like don't say life partner just say like sup like I want I want to get laid like you know because there are other people like that and then you get so exhausted and you're so drained from these repetitive conversations that you might match with someone that really is genuine but you you don't have the capacity anymore you're just so burnt out from these endless stupid bland conversations that go nowhere and then you know you just end up getting ghosted anyways and so yeah it's stressful time so
Speaker 4I mean deleting is probably the best thing I had to do that with social media um as a lot of people know I'm married and my wife and I met at work completely I would say I would say, and I've told you this and I told no one ever wants to hear this, but it happened when I wasn't looking for it. Right. I remember I was doing the dating app thing. I was the friend of a friend thing. I did that. And to your point, dating is, is actually an important part of the process for me. It was because I went out with, with these girls before my wife, where I was like, I definitely don't want that. Like I would see these red flags coming up and I was like, Whoa, that like, that reminds me too much of like my mom. When I was a kid, like nagging on me, I don't want that.
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 4And then my wife comes in my life and she's like the opposite of that and all these amazing traits and it just fucking happened. Like I don't, and then we went through tragedy together within my addiction and you know, her parents dealing with stuff too and health concerns, but like that shit brings you closer together for sure is what I'll say about that. But, um, I guess, yeah, it's, it's frustrating because it's easy for me to sit here and say like, Oh, just stop looking for it. And it'll come like, fuck you, man. I want to, I think that's our, one of our basic human desires is to just have like a partner to be with someone at the end of the day and to just enjoy that. But to, so where are you at now with this? Like, how did you kind of cross over this line? Cause I can see it. I've heard it in you. We've talked about this all week. You you're on this like precipice of crossing the line into fuck it. Like, I'm just going to work on myself.
Speaker 3Yeah. So I would say the beginning of this year, um, just like so depleted. Yeah. Like just, you know, work a lot of stuff happening at work and, um, you know, I, I was just tired. Like I didn't have any energy left. I was completely exhausted and burnt out. Um, and I was going a hundred miles a minute and I just realized like, I, I need to take some time off from my job, just from everything. Um, because if I don't do that, I mean, we all know where that leads, right? For me, I'm, I'm not so concerned about picking up, not to say that that's impossible. Cause it is not impossible. Um, but it's more so I'm not good enough. What's my purpose. I have no purpose. Right.
Speaker 5Sort of emotional bottom.
Speaker 3And that's exactly what was happening. I didn't see my purpose outside of my job. I just was, um, you know, Caitlin, the human trafficking worker, like, you know, like, and, and that's great. And I love my job. Like, I absolutely love it, but I was so burnt out because I, I just was doing everything. Everything was about everybody else and I kind of forgot about myself and I didn't even really know, like, do people go out after work because when I finished work, I want to go home and lay on my couch and watch Netflix because I'm, I'm tired, you know, I'm so tired and I wasn't able to show up for friends and family and all this stuff because it was just like work, work, work, work, work. Um, and yeah. I don't know, like, it's, it's hard realizing that you live your life and you think that you're doing it the right way and then you kind of realize not, not that it's like right or wrong, but that like, I haven't really been myself. It's always been about other people. And I, I firmly believe that, you know, my last relationship, um, I had brought into my marriage, like all of a sudden. All of those feelings, all of that trauma, all of the, you know, my, my insecurities and my low self-esteem, I brought that with me into, you know, my, my relationship, my next relationship. And, and I definitely think that that had an effect, you know, and, um, I just think today when I'm ready, I think like you said, and it sucks because it's like, all right, well, I'm also a Virgo. So like, can you just like map this out for me and tell me how long it's going to take? Um, you know, but, but I think like when it's supposed to happen, like it will happen. Um, and like, do I fully believe that? Not really, but they say fake it till you make it. So like, here we are, you know? Um, yeah.
Speaker 4And back to that point of, of what I texted you and I don't know where that came from. That was God for sure. Because like, I don't know. It just came out of my brain where it was like, I need to be that version of myself that's ready for that person. He comes in the coffee. I just, for some reason, I picture you at a Starbucks and this like beautiful blonde, tall guy walking by and just like looking at you and you're ready in that moment because you're, first of all, not in your head about it. You're aware of the situation. This all comes back to, to, to like meditation and like emotional sobriety, just being quiet in your mind most of the time and not all the time. But so that when you're at the Starbucks guy walks by, you're just, you're just attuned to it. Like you're connected to yourself. And your, your intuition is just there where you're like, huh, this kind of feels interesting. And there's like a, you can kind of almost feel it and see it. But if you're in your head, you're, you're not.
Speaker 3Well, and like, what do I have to offer when I'm burnt out and exhausted, like laying on my couch in my sweatpants, you know, like, which I mean, I'm going to do that forever because I love sweatpants and I love laying on my couch. But my point is like, when I'm barely able to take care of myself and, and, you know, these people keep coming my way. And it's the universe being like, say no, like say no. And I'm like, oh, look, it's a sign from God. This person is like, it's crazy because it's that need, right? It's me hoping and praying that like, this is finally the person and that's the problem, right? I need to keep focusing on myself and focusing on my goals and like getting better so that when the time presents itself, I'm actually ready.
Speaker 4And then there's a whole host of problems that comes with relationships, too.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 3Like, I want to be with someone where we can like have fun and watch a movie, but then you can like go home and like, and then we'll like talk again.
Speaker 6I feel like there's an app for that. I don't know. Watch a movie with someone.
Speaker 3No, but yeah, I mean, relationships are hard. Friendships are hard. Like everything is, is complex and complicated, but you know, you need to be willing to go through all of it. You know, like you shared about, you know, some stuff in your relationship, but like your, your wife literally stood by you, you know? And like, I think at the end of the day, when you found someone that you're like, no, no, no, no. Like, I love you. I love all of you. Doesn't mean that I'm going to put up with all of your bullshit, but they hold you accountable. And yeah, they support you because that's what you do in a relationship, but it goes both ways, right? Like the support, the love, the compassion has to go both ways or else. It's not a relationship.
Speaker 4I can't remember the word. It's such a simple word, but like when you adapt, like marriage is about, I was thinking about this the other day too. My word recall these days is, is not.
Speaker 3You're getting old, buddy.
Speaker 4Yeah, I guess so. You adapt to, it's like another word for it.
Speaker 3You acclimate.
Speaker 4You acclimate. It's along the same lines, but it's okay. I'll remember it driving through a meeting tonight. But yeah, it's like, there's times where it's going to be inconvenient and being in recovery, like I've just being able to be aware of, of that is such a gift to where it's like, Oh, I really don't like this right now. And I feel like my wife's winning. Like, like that's what it comes. Sometimes ego reduces it to like me versus you. I, my, I'm going to win versus, you know, I'm winning. She's winning. And, and I can't tell you, it's like the most freeing feeling when you're just surrender to it. And you're like, you know what? So what? I don't get what I want for this. Fucking. I get what I want almost every other time. Right. Like it's, um, that's going to bother me that word anyways, but it's, it's like just adapting and, and acclimating to the fact that, yeah, like it's, I love when she gets her way and you can find love in that too, where it's like, and I mean, that sounds very petty getting her way, but no, no, but I, but I get what you're saying, you know, and like you, you want, you want the person that you're with to support you.
Speaker 3Like, you know, I, I do a lot of public speaking and like, I, I want my person. I want my person eventually to like, be there, like cheering me on and supporting me because it makes me feel like I'm going to pee my pants every time because I'm so nervous.
Speaker 4It doesn't get easier, eh? I know.
Speaker 3No. And you know why? Well, we share the same sponsor, but, um, you know, saying the moment you're not nervous, your ego has taken over. Um.
Speaker 4And you shouldn't be speaking.
Speaker 3Exactly. Right. Like you're nervous because you care. Um, and that's great. Like it, I mean, I'm, I'm grateful all the time when I feel like I'm not nervous. I feel a little bit anxious. Sometimes I'm like, okay, this is enough. Like we don't need to feel anxious right now. Let's move to the next feeling. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, you know, you're given an opportunity to do something different and, and make a change. And I think that's what's so cool about, you know, right now is like, I didn't jump into another relationship. I didn't, um, I'm trying to break that pattern. Well, I broke the pattern. Um, you know, those feelings and the behaviors are much harder, right? That feeling of like, I'm not good. Enough. You got to work on that every single day, you know, just accepting that it's actually okay to feel that way. As long as you just like, don't give in. Do you know what I mean? Like acknowledging your vulnerabilities and knowing like, Hey, maybe I don't look so great today, but that's fine. It's okay. Like you cannot feel perfect and great every single day. And if people do, please let me know what the secret is. Yeah.
Speaker 4You know, it's called lying. Um, but no, it's, it's perception, right? Yeah. It's the same. It's the same reason I'm fat one day and then the next day I don't even think about it. Exactly. It's like, I just, my perception is shit. shifted yeah and uh i would say i want to talk about the soulmate thing yeah because i it's do have you i hope you have now but if you haven't there's that show on netflix something bad is going to happen something very bad is going to happen really it's a horror show it's not that good anyways they talk about soulmates i'm gonna watch it tonight and if she doesn't marry her soulmate she's gonna die that's like the premise of the whole story and so it sparked this interesting conversation between my wife and i and we actually agreed we don't always agree on everything which is funny but i'm spiritual you're spiritual um she's not so much into that she's very much like outdoors and stuff like that but we we both agreed that like fate soulmate i i don't subscribe to the idea that there is no other man in this entire world that would fit my wife perfectly do you know what i mean like i don't i don't subscribe that's asinine to think about and all the people in the world do i think that we just lined up perfectly at the right time and that's it maybe like i don't know we're soulmates yes i i think we are is there no one else on this earth that would you know what i mean fit in that mold and be good for each other what what do you think
Speaker 3about that like what do you think about soulmates do you believe in that i mean i yeah like i believe in the notebook that's my favorite movie oh man no i you know what i do but in a little bit of a different way like i think yes i believe in soulmates and i think that again timing is everything and i am grateful for every relationship that i have been in because i've learned something different each time um and i think learning about yourself means that in the next relationship you're going to be bringing that new version of yourself right and so like 10 years ago or 15 years ago i wouldn't have been able to be with my i wouldn't have been able to be right like it never would have worked timing is everything and so i think i don't think you just have one soulmate i think that you you kind of are actually you know what i think maybe you are in a bunch of relationships until you find that person maybe that's what it is and same with them
Speaker 4right yeah it's like so there's a guy out there right now that's maybe banging his head against the wall like you are or maybe not let's not be that dramatic banging his head on relationships trying to figure it out but like lost and not not like completely lost and not trying to figure it out trying to figure it out and uh same thing and you know he's just kind of climbing the ladder if you will to the point where you guys meet in that starbucks that day yes i love starbucks if you end up meeting your
Speaker 3your future husband in the starbucks they starbucks needs a sponsor call me yeah yeah
Speaker 4but uh yeah i think that that's like i think you're right i think it's like you're almost like i feel it sounds so fucked up but it seems like levels of a video game to me and it's i hate to say that it's a video game but it kind of is it's like you're you're playing the game and you're learning about yourself along the way your character is developing and then to the point where maybe you find this person at that exact time yeah so it could be any number of people but absolutely on that that timing absolutely and even like i was i was talking
Speaker 3with my aunt the other day and she was saying you know like if anything had happened to my uncle she's like i'd be single for the rest like i loved being alone um you know like she she is content with her relationship but if anything god forbid was to happen to him like she wouldn't want another relationship like she would want to just live out her time herself and i think that is also really beautiful you know like having that content contentment and and just kind of like acceptance that like she is enough for herself she's a mom she has a daughter she's about to be a grandmother you know like so i think it really also just depends like on the person because my aunt and i are also very different but very much alike in the sense that we're we're very emotional
Speaker 4beings um and yeah i just had a brain fart i think um the other thing that that is interesting about that too is you know she's kind of enjoy it sounds to me like she's enjoyed all the love that she feels like she can get out of that situation like there's no more other love situation like you've when you feel love to its fullest degree well and that's exactly
Speaker 3what it is like i i am so jealous of their relationship like it's so simple it is so simple you know they they travel they you know like every night watch a show together they have a boys night and a girls night like they they do things separately but they do things like it's just and it's so simple they're not out like doing these extravagant date nights and plant like it's there's no work there's like they don't have to put in this mass amount of effort because they understand each other they like the same things but also like some things they don't you know what i mean like they just they fit they are just enmeshed and yeah you nailed it right
Speaker 4there it's not work and and i agree it's like this is my my wife and i this relationship has been the first time in my life where it's just like it's just like it's just like it's just like it's just been sort of easy yeah things just fall and yeah we disagree on things and we agree on things and it's i'm still working on it but it's like at the end of the day i don't feel like i'm trying to manage the situation exactly exactly and i think like you know life happens things happen
Speaker 3people right like we we mess up and make mistakes and you know there's always consequences for for our actions and our behaviors and things like that but like overall i don't think a relationship is supposed to be a relationship it's supposed to be a relationship it's supposed to be a relationship so strenuous where every night you're fighting and you know there's the same things are coming up you know and i will say the other thing that i've experienced in relationships that have been really hard is um you know like we talk about like periods and and men joke around oh are you on your period and it's funny um but at the end of the day it's like it's really hard to express um like i have pmdd which is premenstrual dysmorphic disorder and like i didn't even know until maybe i was like 30 i had no idea i just thought it was like normal to be like super emotional before your period and you know um to like want to kill yourself i thought these feelings were normal and my doctor was like no it's not normal like that most women don't feel like that um but since the age of 12 i just kind of had those feelings and so trying to express yourself in a relationship like you know you want somebody to be close to you but you don't physically want them to touch you because you kind of feel like you're going to murder them but also like it's not them it's like it it sounds funny when we talk about it but it is like a real battle inside you know and like i i have never been able to control those feelings of like i am absolutely worthless and it's caused fights in my relationships like you know i keep bringing up the same thing or oh are you on your period again because like this is happening and i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh this is happening instead of the understanding that okay this is how her cycle is um you know like let's kind of figure it out together why don't you learn a little bit you know um there is a chemical imbalance it is not made up it is not you're just on your period and my feelings are irrational um whether they're irrational or not they are valid that because i am feeling them they are very real um and so i think when you're in that relationship and like my friendships where i can have those open conversations um of trust and raw vulnerability like that's what you need that's what i want in a relationship you know and and it's it's hard to find people that are
Speaker 4understanding yeah and it takes time too right and it's like sometimes it's like you you need to know the difference between when i want to be left alone when you want to be left alone and when you want to be comforted because sometimes it's better to just like well right
Speaker 3and ask because everybody is different you know what i mean and i think sometimes it's like oh well i'll just let her work this out herself but that's also not great like the isolation piece where then i'm sitting there being like oh they don't want to be around me they're gonna leave me they found somebody out like it's so crazy like it is so crazy you know um and like at the end of the day like like who was i joking with the other day where i did something so unhinged i don't even know what it was i was like probably joking with my best friend and then i came to the realization because i was like i got my period the next day and i was like oh god it all makes sense right like these feelings these emotions it feels like an impending sense of doom like it feels like the world is crashing down and there's nothing you can do about it and then you know it happens because it happens every month and then you're like okay so it wasn't me right and like being able to accept the fact that that's kind of how it goes and understanding your body understanding the foods that you need under like it all plays a part you know and and the people that you have in your life so i'd rather be single and you know live this life myself then then have to like walk on eggshells or have to you know i don't know not not be myself anymore because like i think i'm pretty great you know i'm super quirky i'm like really nerdy and lame and i joke around um but i'm also really authentic you know i care a lot about people and there isn't anything i wouldn't do for the person that i love um but i think once i'm like settled in to myself more it'll happen when it's supposed to happen and it's
Speaker 4hard to say and it sucks but it's it's true right yeah did you uh follow the rule of dating in your first
Speaker 3year of recovery or did you okay so i um the my partner at that time we came in together so we were already in a relationship um loophole loophole uh no but but i i mean yes okay it's not right in the big book it's not but at the end of the day like what do you have to offer no seriously and and that's not an insult like i'm not saying that you're a bad person i'm saying like you've been through some stuff and it is time to heal it's time to put yourself first for once um and really get to know yourself and it's like right now like when when i when you go through a breakup what do you have to offer the next person because you're bringing all of that into this laundry it is not fair for that future person that you're going to meet and so you know i think dating in your first year i mean listen like i come from a lineage of of people who you know if you date in the first year you need to find another sponsor and that is fair and that's that's what i learned that's what i do with my sponsees and i think it's i just think it's a really it's a really good kind of moral compass to have and everyone's different i've seen people date in their first year and they have happy relationships and and that's great you know for me i like if if i had come in single i would have i probably would have went back out right like your first year is so crucial yeah you're so vulnerable um and it's also kind of like predatory you know depending on like
Speaker 4where you are that's a whole other podcast too the the uh yeah we'll get we'll get to that you know what i haven't again male perspective but i haven't been privy to it in the yeah maybe that's because the groups i went to were healthy groups and there's certain groups that wouldn't let that
Speaker 3people right and and that's what it is it's just listen we all come in sick and we don't all get better that's what it is right um but i think yeah at the at the end of the day like the first year is so crucial it's so important like you are going through withdrawal you're maybe finding a job like every everyone's first year is so different but that's time for you like you got to build that foundation so that when and if you get into a relationship and it say it doesn't work you fall and you have such a sturdy foundation you're not going back out yeah right yeah and it
Speaker 4takes so much time i think the the big thing for me is what i realized is that we make other people our new drugs of choice right absolutely and it's like i again i i snort that other person and i'm not putting my recovery first because i'm focusing on yeah codependence i need you to love me so that i can love myself exactly and i i remember so i i dated the in my like 13th month i think i waited because i i respected all the things i wanted to stay so like i was like fuck i don't want to go back there right and it was still hard so like i don't you know the the timeline thing i don't know it takes time but i put this person on a pedestal to the effect of going on vacation i didn't even enjoy my vacation with my dad because i was so obsessed with that person and i was like what are we going to do when we get back yeah it was fucking to your point if i didn't have that foundation i would have relapsed for sure but it was exhausting it was exhausting you put these people on a pedestal you snort them like a drug and then it's like if something happens immediately i'm spinning a story in my head i'm not enough i'm a piece of shit i'm never going to find love yeah something's wrong with me and the world the sky is falling i always say to the guys that i work with i'm like i'll never tell you what to do because you're a grown man but if you are going to date and a lot of them do you got to work 10 times harder of a program like you have to there's like no shortcuts here at all you're working and i'll tell you it's probably not going to work out for a lot of people because that's what happens we make them our recovery program and then everything else kind of falls the codependency piece right like
Speaker 3and it's so hard like it's so hard to be alone um and i mean like what i'm coming up to 11 years it's still hard like it's it's never easy but you just like it's exciting too right like you kind of get to figure out what you like and what you don't like and you get to do whatever you want you know and like when the time comes like you get to bring that stuff that you've learned about yourself into like that's exciting
Speaker 4my favorite part about living alone was being able to eat dinner at any time in the day i don't know if that's a good thing i used to eat dinner at four o'clock sometimes yeah it was the best that was my favorite part and then the other thing i saw a reddit post one time that said what is the best part about or the worst part about living with someone else and it was when you put things places they're not where you left them that was the number one biggest pain point for people it's like when i put something somewhere it's not where i left it oh yeah i used to i'm like
Speaker 3you know i had to move everything needs to be a certain way you know um toxic trait for sure but uh but yeah that was a big complaint because i would move everything and i'd be like look it's all organized and it looks great and this is yours and then this is mine and it's fine and he'd be like yeah but i left it there and today i can see you're right you left it there it's not mine why did i move it but at the same time like put it away yeah yeah
Speaker 4then this goes back to like what is my part right again it's like what is my part okay yes was it more organized but also here's what i did for that person i you know from taking my my inventory on it yeah um yeah living with that's a whole other ball game too is moving in with somebody there's always one thing okay let me ask you this what's your thing that you cannot stand when someone does it that you live with like just one thing i know
Speaker 3if there's like dishes in the sink my wife's like that yeah and you need a spoon and you wash only the spoon and you leave the rest of the dishes in the sink
Speaker 6make that make sense yeah i don't understand there's it's mine too that's my wife there's many
Speaker 3you know but listen i am not an easy person to live with either i am an afternoon girly i don't do mornings i don't like mornings i want to be a morning person i strive to be a morning person but i am like a demon in the morning you know so like i i give credit to my history of relationships yeah i've heard of people like sleeping in different beds
Speaker 4too our friends friends of ours just moved in together for the first time and uh they have two two different beds because their schedules are so opposite yeah she wakes up at like three but
Speaker 3you know what that's really healthy like at the end of the day you need sleep yeah and if you are like if you're not able to sleep in the same bad like yeah okay that that really sucks but if you can't get however many hours you're not going to be able to function like it just doesn't work that way two different blankets is good though yeah that's the new swedish method or
Speaker 4whatever it's called yeah we've been looking into that too where do you want to land this thing
Speaker 3i don't know
Speaker 4what's something that you're gonna what's something that you took home from you you mentioned boundaries but like what's something that you one thing that you took from that that you actually implemented into your life something practical with boundaries
Speaker 3i mean it sounds so simple but like saying no right like we hear it all the time just say no um and not maybe
Speaker 4maybe too i'm notorious for that like maybe no like yes or no yeah exactly and and it's and it's hard
Speaker 3and it's really scary at first because again my my history my background i'm a people pleaser i need you to like me i need everyone to love me um but like it's just not possible if i cannot do something i have to say no no maybe right like i have to put those boundaries in place otherwise i'm going to burn out again and who knows if i'll come back from it so you know it's it sounds like a super simple thing but it's it's really hard and i can tell you that since i've started saying no things have changed like super small but like my aunt the other day she's like you're so much happier like you feel so much more present freedom exactly um you know i'm i'm doing things for me if if i want to like sit on my couch and watch a movie i'm doing things for me i'm doing things for myself watching netflix all night i'm gonna do that that's fine maybe i'm not gonna answer my phone or maybe i say hey can i call you tomorrow like i'm having a me night right like it's just it's very simple i don't i try i try not to feel too bad about prioritizing myself and my health my
Speaker 4mental health all of that and also you know jen was in here i think you know jen jen b but she said she mentioned how no is a full sentence too right absolutely i'm the guy that's
Speaker 3like no because i and i'll spin this story justify and explain you don't have to no you know but but it's true right it's that guilt that like no and here let me make it let me cushion it right let me make it softer for you and sugarcoat no i can't do it um and just having that confidence that like that's that it is what it is no like just fuck off okay what's your favorite self-care activity you said netflix already so i love can i say prime
Speaker 4just kidding they have better movies on there actually they do honestly like so recently
Speaker 3i'm like obsessed with like korean face masks like the like jelly ones that like melt into your skin oh cool it's so cool um like it sounds like super lame but like taking a bath not bringing my phone leaving my phone not sleeping with my phone in the bedroom right like leaving my phone out in the living room uh taking a bath going to a meeting by myself just like just doing stuff alone um right like going out to eat by myself you know what i did
Speaker 4that once in france and it was the scariest experience of my life full patio of people you just reminded me it was i was sober too yeah and i went to i went to spain and france before i got married by myself i did hostels i fucking maybe that's what you need to do maybe that's what you need to do might think about doing go to a hostel yeah travel to a hostel do you know how many horror movies i've watched absolutely not anthony again white male perspective yeah very different anthony remember hello yeah know your audience but yeah it's like and so i there was one night out of that whole trip where i didn't have friends i didn't meet friends yet and i am not the kind of person that eats alone because like oh my god the fear and and i did it and can i tell you like it was the greatest thing ever it's liberating i accomplished it seeing all these people with
Speaker 3people and i was like nobody fucking cares the other thing is going to movie by yourself oh i've
Speaker 4done that too i've done that too um that is a good and like you know i recently started working out
Speaker 3again like i got a coach to like help me because i make all of these goals where i'm like i'm going to work out this day and this day and this day and do that and then what happens i fall off because i don't have a consistent schedule i'm also not an expert at working out so like i need someone to help me 37 year old woman i need you to help me um i'm not an expert at working out so like i need someone to help me um and so i got someone amazing she's so so good um and she's helped me with nutrition like my workouts form self-love self-care not being hard on myself if i can't do a workout before my period right like looping it into my cycles because your workout is very different in luteal than it is you know follicular or fucking menstruation ovulation expert
Speaker 4yeah uh no that's a good one i'm not an expert at working out i'm not an expert at working out that's great you that's amazing i love all those things too movie is my favorite one by myself caitlin i love you so much thanks for coming down thanks buddy love you too on any journey using
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