Coaching Beyond Symptoms in Perimenopause

Introducing Angela Wilkins Green to Midlife Chats Welcome to Midlife Chats. Here, we talk honestly and authentically about Women's Health, well-being, and everything that comes with the menopause and midlife journey. With each guest, we'll dive into real conversations about what it means to thrive in this chapter of our lives. Together, we'll hear from health experts, share personal stories, and breakdown the myths and the taboos. So grab a cup of tea or coffee, get comfortable, and join us for a chat that matters. Today, I'm delighted to welcome an executive coach who specializes in empowering female leaders. We are going to talk about leadership, confidence, identity, and refining success in midlife. And, of course, how the perimenopose transition can influence our energy, confidence and careers. Angela Wilkins Green is an executive coach for senior female leaders who look successful on the outside but privately feel like they are losing themselves. Angela's work cuts through that fast. She's known for her ability to create instant trust, helping women open up quickly and speak honestly about what's really going on, often for the first time. With over 25 years in senior leadership roles and advanced coach training through the International Coaching Federation, she brings both commercial understanding and deep coaching expertise. Many of the women she works with are navigating perimenopause, although they do not always realize the impact it is having on their confidence, clarity and performance. Alongside her one to one coaching, Angela works with organizations to retain and support experienced female talent through Manager Training, Menopause Action Plans, policy development, and targeted support that moves well beyond awareness. From Corporate Career to Coaching Through Perimenopause Hello, Angela. Welcome to Midlife Chats today. Speaker 2 Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's a joy to be here. Speaker 1 It's really nice to welcome you as a coach because you are working with female leaders and usually when they are at midlife they might have some challenge that they would not like to talk loudly. So it is a good topic to discuss. Also, it's linked to the perimenopause as midlife stage, so maybe we can start with you first. What led you from your corporate career into coaching women in midlife, Angela? Speaker 2 Yes, yes, it's a good place to start that. It is the start of my coaching journey really. But it was the start of my perimenopause, which happened much younger than most women expect, especially when it was happening to me because I was 42 when my perimenopause symptoms started kicking in. And that was. Speaker 1 Nearly. Speaker 2 Oh gosh, nearly seven years ago. How we age quickly But of course back then menopause wasn't talked about quite so often as it is now, especially here in the UK. It's grown a lot in conversation over here now and much more women are aware of perimenopause. But when it was happening to me all those years ago, I had never heard of the word perimenopause. So I had no idea what was happening to me, what was happening to my mind and my body, and why it was happening. All I knew is that I didn't feel like myself. And slowly over a two year period, I, well, I started. The only way I can describe is I started to lose myself. I didn't know who I was anymore. And sort of by the end of those two years, I completely crashed and had no choice and walked away from my 25 year career. And it was at that point that I started doing my research and I've found out about perimenopause. And I decided actually my life needs to drastically change and I need to start putting me first. And that's when I found coaching and started training to become a coach. So yeah, so a deeply personal experience brought me in, like many women, I think. Speaker 1 Which is very valuable and thank you for sharing it very openly. And from your story, let's come to your coaching, professional coaching then. Uncovering Your Values and Truth Through Coaching What does coaching look like in practice for a woman who feels off, maybe like what you had experienced before but cannot quite explain? Speaker 2 Coaching I think is a really special place to be for women and until you've experienced it for yourself, it's really hard to understand and I think most coaches would agree with me when they say that. But it's a really safe space. It can feel scary, it absolutely can. It can feel really challenging but also it's a really lovely space when you find a great coach who can hold that space for you. And it's an opportunity for you as a woman to finally put you first to think about yourself and have time to delve into whatever you need to. But quite often, usually it goes quite deep and it can go quite deep quite quickly and it becomes about your values and who you are and what's important to you and why things are important to you and really thinking about your truth and understanding what actually is it. For me, not everything that I've learnt, that society has taught me my whole life and the people that I've surrounded myself with my whole life, what do they think? It's, What do you actually believe deep down? Because quite often, especially as women, I find we say things because we think that's what other people want to hear and it's not necessarily our truth. And that coaching process just allows that truth to come out. And that can feel extremely powerful, extremely freeing. And especially when we're going through those those menopause years, suddenly we don't really want to hear what everybody else has got to say anymore. Suddenly we'll need that. We have that need to find our voice on that coaching space really gives us the ability to find that voice for ourselves. Speaker 1 You described it very nicely. Their values, their truth. So what's are women really trying to understand about themselves when they come to you? Do they want to see who they are truly or what is your experience? Addressing People-Pleasing and Societal Expectations in Midlife It it does really depend on the woman. So, you know, it's really, it's a really difficult to say because we're all so different and in the coaching space, I deal with whatever comes up in the person in front of me. There is no agenda for anybody. It's just what what do you need? More often than not, it comes down to that deep personal belief in who we are and really understanding who we are. More often that's that's at the root. And it also depends on our upbringing and our influences through our lives and the things that have happened to us that have changed who we are over time. You know, I'm, I'm not a, not a therapist in any way, but a lot of women do feel the need to go back and look at things in the past. And especially women can be drawn to their childhoods, especially if they've had a happy childhood and it brought up lots of happy times. It can be really helpful to go and visit who that person was because quite often once we get to our teenage years and our hormones kick in and life takes over and responsibilities take over, then all of a sudden we forget who that happy 7 year old girl was and what she loved and what was important to her and what made her feel free. And for a lot of women, that revisiting who that child was gives us that freeing. Actually, she's still in there. I, I can be her again and she can be part of who I am today and that that's really lovely to witness in, in so many of my clients. Speaker 1 Indeed, it sounds like you go through a journey together. Speaker 2 Definitely. And every journey is so, so different. But yes, always, always a journey. Speaker 1 Yeah. And during this journey, what kind of patterns or let's say behaviours do women start to notice once they begin to work with you? Speaker 2 Yeah, often it's the people pleasing that comes up. Most of us do it in one way shape or form a huge amount around, you know, lack of confidence or not being able to find our own voice. But it's generally what quite often it's I'm a helper. I love to help people. I love to do the things. I love to be in control. Maybe, you know, so everybody is slightly different at how they come to that. And some people it's about that need to be in control. And for some people, it's not about being in control at all. It's just actually, I just want to please everybody else and keep everybody happy. And when we're doing all of those things, we're not really being true to ourselves. We're never putting ourselves 1st. And it's so easy for us to do that. There's no blame. It's, it's, it's how life, you know, sends us down these paths with, you know, so many expectations on us, especially now when we all want to have a great career, but we still want to be able to bring up our family. You know, for some people, it's we can't have a family and we can't have the things that we want in life. There are so many challenges for us as women and what we like to do. I think this is what I witnessed the most is we like to do it all and we like to think we can do it all and we should be able to do it all. And should is a word that I have banned in my house. There are no shoulds. We shouldn't have to feel like we have to do it all, but we but we do when we put that pressure on ourselves. And then when that starts to get impossible to hold, that's when we start to blame ourselves because society tells us that we should be able to do it. Speaker 1 Yes, I love that No shoots, no hats, no masks. Speaker 2 Absolutely. There are no rules, right? We put the rules on ourselves and we don't even realise we're doing it. Speaker 1 Yes, or based on the expectations of the society as you. Speaker 2 Mentioned. Experiencing Profound Internal Shifts and Self-Belief So what you are saying is critical, very critical, especially for women at midlife because we see this pattern a lot. But I think this pleasing people is more for the family rather than the professional life. Is it correct? I'm asking this because you are working with professional senior female leaders. Do you see this pattern more on their private life or also on professional? Speaker 2 I both, I see it in both absolutely and and I think there is that misconception that if people are always, women especially are successful in the workplace, then they don't have those traits. But that's absolutely not the case. And what's actually happening is women are putting a front on all the time and the energy that that takes from us to be able to do that. So you're showing up to the outside world. You look like you're absolutely smashing it, that you're more than capable, that you're really confident. Everybody just sees this woman that looks amazing and think, wow, why can't I be like that? But actually the reality is on the inside, that's not how she's feeling at all. You know, she might have some great days and she might have some great successes that make her feel good, but actually we all have this underlying doubt, every single one of us, male and female, we all have it. And some people are just better able to manage it than others. And it's in, it's much more prevalent than I think we realize in women who are who are really successful. Speaker 1 Right. And as you start to work with these women, what shifts do you typically see in how they think, feel or show up in their lives? Can you give us a little bit more on that? Speaker 2 Yeah, I think I firstly, I think it takes time and patience with ourselves to go through what we described earlier as as a journey. You don't just go for a couple of coaching sessions and suddenly everything, everything changes and you feel better and you just get on with the rest of your life. Actually, what we're talking about here is lifelong work that we all, once we find it, that we all end up doing. But the shifts go really deep, and it's not about the surface stuff that you see in the office necessarily. It's about what's going on in your heart and in your body and how you feel when you're showing up. That's where the shifts are happening. And then actually on the outside, everybody else starts to see a slightly different you, but they can't really put their finger on it. They can't work it out. Just suddenly there will be this inner confidence that you have grown over time because you're starting to believe in you and who you are and your decision making and believing in what you think and that you have trust in what you're saying and what you're doing. And that those, they're small, tiny things that happen over a long period of time that suddenly just build and build and build. And you become. And the only way I can describe it is you become you. And that feeling is immense. And other people was just suddenly noticed that in you, but they won't know what's changed. Nothing on the outside has really changed. You don't need big shifts in your life. You don't need to pack up and move countries. Or, you know, some people do choose to do that, but that's not really of what's making the difference. It's actually you finally coming home to you. That's that's what makes the difference. And that's that's the shifts that you don't you can't put your finger on. Making Confident Decisions and Setting Personal Boundaries It's internal and it's powerful. Speaker 1 It's very deep on a deep. Speaker 2 Yeah, it is. It is and I, I do. I go to a lot of coaching groups and have mentoring with other coaches and talk a lot with other coaches. And one of the things that comes up a lot is it's getting to the root. And it's when we get to the root of what we really truly believe of who we are. That's when that's when things start to change. It's very powerful. Speaker 1 So you observe these wonderful deep changes and emotions and which is fantastic, I can imagine also very satisfying for you to see these shifts in front of you. So may I ask you, what is your observation? How does this work with you impact these women taking decisions and leading their lives and not only their emotions? Think. Speaker 2 For for women, it's it's about just coming back to your day-to-day and knowing what's important to you, whether that's in your home life, whether that's in your career. It's about being able to make decisions and feeling confident in who you are in making that decision and being able to show up at work maybe knowing that you have a voice and you deserve to be in the room and you deserve to be there and to be heard and to be respected. And it's, it's a very exciting time for women when they suddenly realise, oh, this is open to me too. This isn't for other people. This is for all of us. This is every one of us out there deserves to feel respected in whatever it is we choose to do with our lives, whether that's at home or whether that's at work. And a lot of us are living in places where we don't have that respect. Maybe it's from our family members that we don't have that respect. And actually, that's really challenging to deal with, especially when it's close family members. And, you know, we don't want to, we don't want to be arguing with family or rocking the boat or upsetting or falling out with people. And actually, you know, thinking about that as I'm talking, it's actually a really difficult thing for women to overcome. And I think this is true for for men too, to be fair, that if you've got somebody in your family that's quite overwhelming and quite controlling, maybe to suddenly start taking control of that for yourself and maybe pushing back, as difficult as that is in the moment and can take a long time for people to find the courage to start doing that. That is a huge release. And can be extremely powerful when you know how to do it in a way that is right for you. And working that out can be can be the difficult bit. How how is that going to work for you in a way that you're comfortable? And the other thing that comes up for me then is thinking about the people that we lose in our lives as we age. And it might not be them walking away. It might be us choosing walk away and knowing that that's actually OK to do too. Speaker 1 If we can, if we have marriage. Speaker 2 If we can, absolutely. And I'm not saying any of this is easy. It's certainly not. Speaker 1 But we should see it as something possible and not. Speaker 2 That I love that I love that, absolutely. It's about knowing that there are possibilities out there and it is your choice what you're willing, what you're willing to make a decision on, and what you're not. And if you're not, that's fine too. As long as it's your choice and you know why you've made the decision and the reasons behind that and you feel comfortable with that, then that's OK. There is no right or wrong answer. Building Empathetic Cultures Through Workplace Vulnerability It's knowing deeply within you what is the right answer for you. Speaker 1 And I remember from the time I worked in corporate life, when you are extremely busy, you need people around you to understand. You want to be understood because you feel like you're already struggling. And if the closest people do not understand you, you feel really squeezed in a corner. This was a period in my life. This is exactly how I was feeling. What you were saying reminded me these feelings. Now we should be able to talk with them. And even if we talk, if they don't understand, maybe they are not the right people to be in our lives. Speaker 2 Very true. It's so true. And actually, I think that's a really important part of this conversation that that dynamic in the workplace with the people around you, whether that's your managers, whether that's your peers, you know, it doesn't matter who it is. Ideally, we are building relationships with those people that go beyond just this is somebody that I know and work with. Ideally, we're going a little bit deeper with those people and actually getting to know them, but also allowing them to get to know us too. Because when we can open up just a little bit and show a little bit of vulnerability around those people that we're surrounded with, if we can do that, it shows them that they can do that too. And that's when we start to build an amazing culture of supportive, empathetic people. But if we're constantly putting barriers up and pretending to be someone we're not, pretending that we're OK, pretending that we can do everything, then we are constantly hiding who we really are. And then they're never given the chance to actually properly get to know us. And then it's impossible to build true relationships with the people around us. So I encourage the clients that I work with to actually just just allow yourselves to be a little bit vulnerable. That's not telling people everything that's going on in your world. You don't have to tell them everything about you and your life, but just allowing them to see that this is a human being in front of you. We're all vulnerable. We all will have things that we are struggling with. We're stronger when we do it together and I feel like that's such an important dynamic that is missing in a lot of organisations and a lot of teams. And if we could be a bit more of that at work, if we were allowed to be, if we allowed ourselves to be I, I think teams would be far more successful and we would all be much happier at work. Speaker 1 These word vulnerable and work life leaders, professionals, executives sounds like they don't match because we are not used to it. Absolutely. Speaker 2 And there, for me, is the crux of the issue. Speaker 1 Yeah, Yes, exactly. So it's good that you are creating this awareness. Yeah, among these women. And I wish everybody understands that we are humans. We have the right to be vulnerable from time to time, even if we are top leader or executive professional. Absolutely. I fully agree with you. Yeah. Understanding Perimenopause's Impact on Confidence and Performance And Angela, I know that many of the women these professional leaders that you are working with are navigating Perimenopose at the same time, assuming that they are around 40s and they may not always realize the impact Perimenopose is having on their confidence, clarity or performance. So when you work with them, how do you manage this? How do you make them aware of these symptoms and how do they match with their professional life? Speaker 2 It does depend on how the woman has come to me and what her needs and requirements are of the work that we're doing together. But most of the women that come to me know that I also specialized in perimenopause and menopause. So it does often come into conversation purely because they know that it's very rarely the reason, the sole reason women to come to me. I'm not AGP, I'm not going to be giving them any prescriptions for anything. It's not they're not coming to me to solve their perimenopause. They're coming to me for something much more complicated and probably much deeper than that. But actually, once women are in a space where they feel trust, they're very quick to open up. And actually if you've got perimenopause symptoms, and for those who don't realise it, perimenopause symptoms aren't just physical symptoms. So we quite often hear about hot flushes and night sweats. But, but actually there's a huge amount of psychological symptoms that come with perimenopause and menopause. And often the psychological symptoms come first before we even realise we're in perimenopause. So all of a sudden we've got this thing going on in our heads that makes us feel like we're not like ourselves anymore. And what's happening? Lots of women feel like they're getting early onset dementia. I hear that all the time because of the brain fog that we experience. And some women, some women just absolutely have no idea what's happening and they feel anxious. Anxiety is one of the one of the big ones that comes along with loss of confidence. So it's part and parcel of the conversation that we're having because confidence is one of the big things. Anxiety is one of the big things that comes up during a coaching conversation usually anyway. So it's very closely intertwined. So given the fact that they know that I specialized in that area, it's the side conversation that we can have about what you can do about your symptoms and how you know if it's, if it's hormone replacement therapy that you want to try, how that can help. And I can support with those conversations and what to ask your GP and how to have a good conversation with your GP. But then actually what really happens and what I notice all the time and definitely happened to me, is things that were already going on for you. Like for me, I always had a a huge lack of confidence, especially in the workplace. They were exacerbated by my perimenopause. So things that are already within you are likely to just get bigger and bigger through those years. And so actually, yes, we can help it with HRT if that's what you want to try. It will definitely go some way. But actually, the deeper work can happen in either coaching or maybe for you, it might be you need to go for some therapy, depending on what it is that you need to work on. But yeah, but so they're very closely intertwined. And it does take, you know, an experienced coach or an experienced therapist to understand what you might need on top of helping your actual symptoms. Speaker 1 Right. But even talking with you and understanding some of the symptoms, that they think something else like brain foam you mentioned is part of perimenopause is a relief for these women. Because maybe some of them are thinking I'm working too hard. I try to cope with everything. So maybe now I'm getting old and I'm done. I'm burned out because this burned out. Speaker 2 Syndrome has. Speaker 1 Always been very popular in work life. Speaker 2 Absolutely. And and I was just going to say it before you said the word burnout and I think it can be really difficult to know decide what it is that's going on for you. We have to be also aware of other conditions that might be going on in our bodies. So we don't want to just assume it's perimenopause when we hit our 40s. It could be something else you've got going on and it could be burnout, but it might be your perimenopause symptoms, you know, So there's so much to consider. Speaker 1 Or everything at the same time. Listen to Your Body: A Unique Perimenopause Journey Everything at the same time exactly. Speaker 1 But overall, important thing is this is something that is not permanent. And if you take care of yourself and your body, this is a stage that is temporary. I think that's a big relief to, to women to hear that. Well, do you agree with that? Oh. Speaker 2 Completely and I, but I do think it's important that we realise it's different for every woman. So for any woman out there that's going through this right now, please, please, please do not compare yourself to anybody, even how your mum went through it. Or maybe you've got sisters or aunties that have been through it. Your experience will likely be very different to everybody else around you. Your symptoms will be different. How you feel will be different. How long it takes for you to go through it could be different. But you know, on really positive notes, 25% of women don't. They'll go through their menopause, but they won't experience any symptoms at all. So that's a lot of women that sail through this, this period of life without any problems at all. Some women will have a few years of experiencing symptoms and then it will all quieten down and everything will feel normal again. And for some women, they do even into postmenopause will experience some symptoms and they may need to stay on HRT if they choose to take it for the rest of their lives to manage those symptoms, right. So it can be different for everyone. Speaker 1 That's a very good message. I was planning to ask you, in fact, what is one thing you wish women understood about themselves during perimenopause? But I think you just mentioned that it's important for them to understand each woman is unique. Exactly. A very profound message. Do you have anything to add on top? Speaker 2 Of this, that's the one thing I would add is listen to your body. You absolutely listen to what it's trying to tell you and try not to ignore what's going on because we do it for so long. Women, women can go years of struggling with symptoms and thinking this is just the way it is and don't seek any help whatsoever. When actually there could be things that could they could do, whether it's HRT or whether it's changing up your exercise regime or changing your diet or taking some supplements, Whatever it is, there'll be something that you could be doing that will help you personally. But yeah, they're not comparing to other people is, is the biggest thing. And when your body is trying to tell you something, when something you feel different in any way, that is your body signalling to you that something is changing and it's trying to tell you. So listening is hugely important and tracking, actually tracking symptoms, if you're really struggling, tracking symptoms is absolutely key to understanding what's going on. Retaining Female Talent: UK Menopause Action Plans Correct. Thank you, Angela. And because you are working with women from workplace, professional working women and because you are based in the UK, I would like to ask how do you see the top of menopause and menopause awareness in workplace in your country right now? Why does it matter if it matters more beyond well-being and awareness sessions that are applied in the organisations? Speaker 2 It's hugely, hugely important part of the conversation because women in their 40s and 50s are generally at the peak of their careers and we are hugely valuable to the economy. We need to be in the workplace and we want to be in the workplace and we deserve to be in the workplace. And of course what we see happening is women leaving. So just like I did, you don't really understand what's going on for you. You feel like you need to change up your life in some way and you walk away from a career that you've worked all of your life, you know, to build. And So what I am about is trying to help women know what it is they want, might decide that walking away from your career is the right thing for you. And if it is great, you know, let's find a way to help you do that. But actually for most women, once they're through that most difficult period of their symptoms, they realise. But actually I didn't need to walk away at all, or I don't. I didn't want to walk away. It's just how I felt in the moment. And I think organisations have a huge responsibility to help women through that time. They need that support in place to help them just get through this few years. That might be all it is. That is a particularly difficult personal stage, but it's just about having that right support and it doesn't mean that every woman's going to want to talk about it. She might be quite private about it. There's nothing wrong with that. It's about knowing that there's an element of flexibility or understanding or someone she can talk to. So organisations do have a responsibility and thankfully here in the UK that that is coming now. I think we're one of one of the countries are the furthest ahead in the menopause space really. So we have menopause action plans coming in in the UK. So they're already now voluntary in the UK. So organizations with more than 250 employees have to, or they're encouraged at the moment to have an action plan, which means they need to be doing something every year to show that they're making a difference in supporting women in this space. And April 2027 that becomes mandatory for those size organisations. So it really is now being taken seriously and organisations are having to think about what's going to work for their organization and what works for one will be different for another. So again, it it's about having somebody that can help you work that through and what your specific employees actually need because you know it will be different depending on how your organization is is made-up. Speaker 1 It's really encouraging to see these steps correct. Speaker 2 So it's so encouraging. It was such a relief to me to see it being bought in, in all honesty. Do I think the UK government have gone far enough with the menopause action plans? Absolutely not. They're still very light in my opinion. But I think, you know, it's a really good start. At least the conversation is being taken seriously now. And I think over time and once we can start to prove that putting this support in place will actually make a difference and it will help the retention of our female employees, they will stay in work longer. Then once we can start to see that and making a difference, I think that will just get better and better. Creating Meaningful and Tailored Workplace Support for Women Definitely, at least there is voice around that and I think it's not the same level in all the countries in Europe, so. Speaker 2 It's definitely. Speaker 1 Not you'll appreciate what your country is doing, I guess. Speaker 2 Looking. I hope it spreads far and wide, I really do. Speaker 1 Yes, and I know many companies, especially the international, multinational companies, they emphasize the importance of awareness on well-being and health sessions. Some of the companies even have one day off in one month to give them space and pause to the employees, but not necessarily. It's not really mentioning menopause. So I think there is still a room to progress and I hope it will be wide among Europe and the other countries and the rest of the. Speaker 2 World as well. Yeah, I agree. Speaker 1 Knowing that you are experienced on this also from workspace perspective, what kind of supports would you think really would make a meaningful difference to women at work? Is it information? Is it talking with their teams? Is there something specific information you would like to share with us? Speaker 2 Well, I think everything that you mentioned there and it will be different for every woman. So I think that's when it comes to organisations, it's really important that when they start to think about this is that the first thing they do is talk to the people within the organization, find out what's really important to them because it will be different in every place. You know, you might, you're going to have some organisations that have a really high percentage of women. It might be more office based, which is generally easier to make accommodations in, rather than, you know, a company that might be 90% male. The women in those organisations are probably going to need a different kind of support. So for me it's about listening first and finding out who is in your organization and what's going to make the biggest difference for them. And there is all sorts of things that organisations can do and it doesn't have to cost lots of money. Yes, ideally you're going to have a policy because you want somewhere for people to go. In my mind it doesn't need to be a menopause policy. Menopause can sit within a well-being policy and in my mind it's much better for it to sit there because more people are going to find it in a well-being policy than they are a stand alone menopause policy. But having menopause in there is really important. The whole listening piece and reviewing constantly what support you're giving. There might be group awareness sessions, there might the training for all of your managers so that they know how to have a good conversation, but also allowing that one to one support to come in for the women that that really need it, especially the women in those more senior positions. I think coaching is really important for them on several levels, not just because they're menopausal. Embrace Evolution: Listen, Find Joy, and Live Your Purpose Angela, are you coaching only female leaders? Speaker 2 I only coach female leaders. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So for any women that might be listening to this episode, what would you want them to take away from this conversation? I know there is a lot, but would you like to mention three maybe? Speaker 2 I think I think the most important things that I would like women to go away from is wherever you are right now, don't think this is it forever. Life is constantly evolving. You as a person are constantly evolving and giving yourself the time, the space, the permission to listen to how you feel, listen to the signals in your body. That is the greatest gift you can give to yourself. And whether that's working with a coach or whether that's some journalling at home, whether that's doing the things that bring you joy, whether that's something, you know, crazy out there like jumping out of an aeroplane or whether it's meditating in your garden. It doesn't matter what it is. Just find out what brings you joy and what makes you happy and what your values are and what your purpose is. And once you start doing that work, you'll never want to stop. Speaker 1 How wonderful. And while I'm listening to you, I was thinking I can understand why the women open up when they have the coaching sessions with you because I was also reading in your bio that you have the ability to create instant trust, helping women open up quickly and speak honestly about what's going on. I can see from your warm style how they feel like that. So I'm very happy to have hosted you today, Angela. I hope what we've been talking with you will help the other women, either they are in perimenopause or not, especially for the ones that are active in working life, but also would like to keep the balance private and professional life. So very inspiring conversation. Thank you so much for attending. Speaker 2 Thank you so much for having me, it's been an absolute pleasure.