Coach Erin van Eyssen: Find Your Stride—How to Run Smart & Build Confidence on the Trails

Welcome to Trail Chases Season 3, a beginner's guide to trail running. Last week, we talked about how a community plays a crucial role in trail running. But how do you actually start running? Today, we're diving into the fundamentals of running with a coach who has helped countless beginners take their first steps in the sport. My guest today is Aaron Phinesen, an experienced coach and the founder of Flat Rock Insurance Academy. He has guided runners at all levels focusing on sustainable athletic growth and the long-term development of his athletes. In this episode, Aaron and I break down how to start trail running the right way. If you've ever felt overwhelmed about where to begin, this episode will give you a step-by-step guide to avoid common mistakes and build confidence on the trails. We'll go through the basics, touch on the common pitfalls and wrap up with Aaron's best advice for new trail runners. Aaron, welcome to the trail chases. Thanks for having me. How are you feeling? Stressed? [laughter] All good, all good. It'll be fun and more stressed, don't worry. So we've kind of restructured the podcast and each season, we're going to basically do an episode as if we were going on a trail run. We're going to stop every 15 minutes for some interesting questions and some phone questions and to give you a little bit of a break from mind-terrigation. To start off with, if you're at the beginning of a run or the beginning of a race, what are you doing? What are you doing on that start line or what are you doing at that beginning of every trail run? Race or trail run? Okay, let's go both. Let's go race. So in trail run, I guess, just happy to get out there. Race, probably trying to manage the nerves, trying to remember the work I've put in to get to where I am, quite in that voice of doubt. Yeah. Yeah. And are you a frantic or you kind of chase from behind? It definitely depends on the distance. And how soon we're going to hit the single track and get backed up. Okay, yes. That's always an important one. But I think starting amongst your peers is generally a good idea. If you want to not run out too hard. Amazing. So this season, one of our sponsors is Gil Nocki Socks, which I am wearing. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to show you a picture of a pair of socks. So this is the picture. And at the end of the episode, I'll give you some time to think about it. I'm going to ask you for your two words that will go on the back of your socks. So you've got about an hour to think about it. But don't let it distract you from the episode. Let's talk a bit about who you are. Without thinking is not a sort of deep and introspective question. What have been the five most pivotal moments in your running career, coaching career? Yeah, up till now. Okay, five. I think firstly, it was probably finding running myself. It's pretty, I wasn't super sporting in high school. Kind of, you know, we did the sport that was mandated by the school. You have to be part of some team. You have to do something. I never really fitted in too well with that. And sort of found running in my early 20s. And it was this thing that relied solely on me and allowed me to explore. And I think that's definitely number one. Number two was probably putting in the work and seeing that go from this thing that seemed impossible to this thing that I was kind of okay at. And seeing that progression and like hard work payoff. Pretty special. Three. Well, probably becoming a coach, so making that transition from just being a student with myself as a single project to looking at ways of helping others sort of get better and prove figure out figure out their training. Where we now, there was three. Four was probably having people trust me with that process. So like having people come to me and with the things that they want to achieve and and be willing to put those goals into my hands to help, which is like was a huge honor. And quite a realization when that happened. That like, okay, this is this is an important thing and then people, people care. And then, you know, I guess, you know, probably building, building a truck to the point that it is now with having other coaches on board, having athletes, you know, perform at a really high level internationally and then see that progress. Probably the final sort of, yeah, incredible. Get them in the cap. Cherry on top. And how are those, how are each of those kind of evolutions, you know, from nothing to runner to, you know, was it kind of natural kind of progression or? It's probably the thing I've been most consistent with in my life. I mean, I have done different things and had different interests, but I think for the last last almost 15 years now, it's been running and that's been a constant through all the other things that have come and gone. It's been quite special to find that. And each level up or upgrade or change in my relationship with it has come with a lot. I mean, there was once just me and I just had to run and that was nice and easy. And then all of a sudden, it was my running and then coaching and understanding it and trying to separate those two aspects of being a coach, but also just being an athlete myself. Yeah. And yeah, it's been a good journey. When was the first time you kind of knew you wanted to be a coach? So I had, it was probably working at the run store in Greenpoint, in Breastreet in town. And we had a number of athletes at a pretty high level working there. And at that point, I had done a lot of research and reading myself and realized that I had a bit to share and I had an ability to make sense of where someone was and what they might need. And I had these athletes that were way better than me. I was asking for advice and I was like, okay, this is interesting space. And I think I've always naturally leaned into helping people and being in that space. And yeah, I decided to make a shift and study in coaching sciences for that reason. And how do you kind of balance your own running and coaching? Was it just. It's pretty tough to be honest. I mean, Fjörrtröck is seven years old now. We ate this year and had been coaching for a couple years before that. And it is tricky because you know a lot. So you overthink all these things that you see quite clearly in the athlete that comes to you. It's quite difficult to have that same honesty with yourself. When you start off, you just run. It's not complicated. The more you do it, the better you get it to a point. And now as a coach with that information, it's quite a juggling act to balance where I am and where I think I should be or would like to be knowing what others put in to get to where they are and what I would need to. If you don't know that, it's quite a nice, sort of easy bullet. It's tricky. And definitely something I'm figuring out this year quite purposefully here. If you had. I mean, obviously you've got a business card and it says coach on it. But in life, in general, if you had a kind of a business card for your life, what would it say under that? Oh wow. Dad? Probably more than. Yeah, so about coach, dad, nerd. Is that a run nerd? Run nerd and does nerd in general, probably. I don't know, in the traditional sense as well. Yeah. Amazing. You know, you've obviously worked with a lot of runners, you know, and you worked across the board, runners, road, trail. So you're kind of in a unique position where beginners would come to you to kind of navigate their journey or start kind of running. So from your perspective, you know, what are the kind of the key aspects you focus on when introducing someone to running to trail running from the get-go? So I guess initially we need a bit of an assessment as to where they are. Like, where does an individual stand? Everyone comes to the sport with a different background. Some have never run before. And their only experiences have been maybe joined a friend on a trail run and realized that this is a pretty cool thing, where some might be, you know, very high level athletes from a different sport. So it's about sitting, what they bring to the table already with their experience, history, and then trying to find, I guess, what they need to transition into trail safely. So as a, I guess, a broad answer would be finding ways for them to be consistent, to get exposure that is specific to their target race or goal. Generally, I mean, this is something, I think Steve Magnus shed, but helping that, it get out of their own way. So making sense of what they can sustainably achieve in a given week and then kind of lay an art plan that allows them to follow that and stay healthy, really. Yeah. Do you find that most people, at what stage of the journey do most people come to you? Is there an average or is it kind of across the board? It's definitely across the board. In trails specifically, there seems to be a, obviously we know that the ultra trail running world, and we need to specify that they are not, it's not all altruists. Yeah. You know, there's everything from a VK to 100 miles and beyond. But generally, a lot of people sort of start looking for help when the distances get far enough that it also almost seems impossible. And then it's about finding someone that can help lay out a plan that makes sense of the seemingly impossible thing, in bridging those two points. So a lot of people kind of come in from that 2030 K distance looking to maybe do a 50 K. Yeah. And they might have struggled in the first two, and how do I make it? sense of stepping up to that next level. So a lot of people in that area, but then at the same time, some people who have never run and want to run 100 miles is their first goal. Like they watch the documentary or they are thin-did it and they want to take this thing on. And then some people who would love to run a 5K and do its injury free and enjoy it. So quite a range. How do you kind of manage those expectations right up front? A balance in act of providing them with some insiders to their own abilities. So in some cases you're building confidence and in some cases you're building respect for a distance. Maybe they've never gone far enough to realize how much discomfort might be installed for them. So maybe some exposure to said discomfort might allow them to sort of reestablish a timeline for those goals. So not saying we're not going to do it, but maybe this year's not the best year and maybe you put it in that out of it. And in some cases maybe it's dying to see what they are capable of and maybe that's far beyond what they thought. Again, depending on who arrives, we have to do one or the other. Managing the person. We're going to take a little bit of a break now. That was our first little section. So if you're running, you know, you're running now and you're by yourself and you're running up a sort of a really hard hill or you power hiking up a really hard hill and it feels like it's never going to end. You know, what are you kind of repeating to yourself? What is that kind of mantra that you're kind of telling yourself to just keep going? That it is going to end. Yeah. And it's sometimes in that discomfort we seem to forget that these things are not infinite. But it does end. And that, you know, you know, he was going to last forever. It's probably an anecdote for life as well. But yeah, I think it will end. Yeah, chin up, chest out, pump away and get it done. Yeah. You can stop and have a cry about it. But the hills are going to be there. Yeah. That is what I keep going. And are you someone that kind of does better knowing when it's going to end or do you kind of just prefer? I like to kind of break down exactly where everything's going to sit and watch it speak to you. Yeah. I'll fall into that category as well. I mean, it has its own drawbacks. I think you can be a limiting factor. There are people who love the unknown and discover everything on the day. Yeah. As a coach that's leaving too much to try and say I would like. Yeah. All right. Let's get into, you know, the reason why we're kind of doing the season, which is helping people get into trail running and really just getting started on that journey. Because I think, you know, we know that once people get into it, it's an incredible sport. It is very special. For someone that's just starting out, you know, what is the most important thing? I mean, it's obviously extremely broad. But, you know, what is the most important thing someone should focus on right in the beginning? Probably forget performance and enjoy it. Yeah. I think it's generally, you know, there's that timeline. I'll find the sport and enjoy the sport. It want to be better. And there's a turning point at which it becomes quite metric driven and performance driven. And that can often stunt progress and enjoyment. So I think finding a way to fully enjoy it while keeping that build up volume manageable and safe. So run with mates, explore new routes. Don't look at your watch. Record it if you need to. But, you know, it's been more time looking up than down. And yeah, I guess focus on yourself. It can become quite a competitive thing against others. We all progress differently. And that can also be a deterrent for a lot of people and make it quite intimidating. Most people, if you asked them to go for an hour long hike, would have no real concern. They average sort of fitness and health. Yet, you know, our trail run can sound quite intimidating for someone who's never done it. So, you know, starting slow, walking the hills and jogging back down is a trail run. I mean, that leads quite nicely into the next question is, you know, obviously, I think one of the things is you say enjoy it. But then if you're pushing yourself too hard in the beginning, it's not really going to be enjoyable. So, how do you kind of assess that fitness or kind of where you are or where you should start in as a kind of beginner on the trails? It's a good question because I think there's a lot of talk at the moment about training zones and then needing to be really specific. And, you know, training is only valuable if done in the correct zone at the correct time. Your average beginner is not fit enough to have need to tidy zones. The act of going uphill is probably going to push them into the red. And for them to pursue the activity, they're going to have to get uncomfortable and probably, you know, not spend time in their ideal zones that a coach might want. So, I think acceptance of that from the start of like, don't look at the metrics, don't look at the heart rate data, try and keep it comfortable as much as you possibly can, honestly, conversational pace kind of comfortable. Understand that it's unlikely to be most of your first few runs, first few weeks of running, but with enough time and sort of exposure, that fitness will come and you will be able to keep things easier. And then the metrics start making more sense as you progress. So, yeah, the average person trying to go uphill is going to be in the red pretty early on and eight weeks down the line, they might be able to run up that hill, 15, 20 beats a minute lower and actually be comfortable in conversation. Then we can start working with time in the different zones. And I think something quite important is that kind of balance between strength and endurance. And I guess we all kind of go for the endurance aspect, as a beginner, it's like, cool, I'm going to run further and further every time. But how do you kind of bring that back to like, it's just as important to build up your strength from the get-go? It really is. And the beginning is probably the best time to do so. Because running is more riskier than time in the German's chance work. So as a beginner runner, you're limited by how much you can do because of your current conditioning. And that builds with time, months and years of doing so. If you're limited to three runs a week, it's a good time to spend two days, two to three days in the gym or on the bike or doing some kind of cross training. We tend to ignore it because we found a level of running. So we want to run on, why do I want to go to the gym, which is kind of the opposite, almost off the trails. But it's hugely valuable. And if done correctly, it doesn't need to be a very extreme thing. Your strength work can be quite manageable. And then to go alongside that as well, when it comes, as you were saying, when it comes to running in the beginning, you just want to run. How important is that kind of the mindset in getting into the right mindset and preparing your mind for what's to come on the trails? Yeah, I think it's pretty important. I don't know if it needs to be done or worked on consciously in the beginning. I think the act of running is one of providing or finding comfort in discomfort or finding at least calm in discomfort. And exposure to that in the beginning is likely to provide results in itself. I do think that comes a point at which you knocking on both your physical and psychological limits. And then I think conscious work in that headspace is valuable. But I think if you progress slowly enough and you provide the athlete or as an individual, you know, building this for themselves, I think if you provide a safe enough progression in terms of distance, duration in a given week, in a given run, you should be able to keep it at a threshold where you're you're winning. Consistently against yourself and the goals in hand and kind of building that confidence in that mindset that comes with it. I mean, generally for most people, would you kind of say step out of that comfort zone as soon as possible or you know, is it's yeah, like I mean, always kind of very dependent on the person. I think it's dependent on the person. I think a lot of people find the sport because of their love of going into that pain care. I think it's quite a spoken about aspect of the sport and there's some big names who are quite happy to go and spend 24 hours in the discomfort. A lot of people it might be quite foreign and too much to soon might scare them away from it. So I think if you if you enjoy trail running and you found it and you're listening to this podcast, the likelihood is that you enjoy a bit of discomfort and then you know, coming out the other side. So we can assume that base level there's some of that, but I think it's a muscle that can be trained and if we if we balance the exposure to that discomfort and allow the athlete to realize what they can endure and survive and come out the other side from, I think it's a healthy healthier progression than too much to soon and being scared away and then you're rebuilding confidence after a big knock. So that might be managing the distance that you expose yourself to or the maybe it's the vert in the race or maybe it's how isolated the races. Maybe it's not just a local farm trail run, maybe it's you know, sky run and you're out there alone and it's a very different experience. So I think picking those challenges is a good way to manage how we progress. You know, I think one of the one of the kind of struggles with starting to run and especially starting to trail run is you know, like the confidence in learning those kind of skills or you know, the kind of technical skills that are needed or you know, to go from as you were saying like something like a Jeep track or a farm run to. So how do you kind of build that confidence or how do you kind of suggest that people start building that confidence? I think honesty with yourself and your abilities is very important. Trail running is different to road running in a number of ways, but one of them is that if things go wrong on the mountain, it's very different to things going wrong on the road. Yeah. So if you put yourself into position where a rolled ankle means a mountain rescue, it's not the same as catching an Uber home from the promenade because you're on a main badly. So I think being honest with your abilities, building them up incrementally so that you know what you're capable of, you trust yourself to not just get to the top of the mountain but get back down again. Maybe that means turning around a little bit sooner. Yeah. Progress week on week, leaning on people with experience so that maybe you're not out there alone when you are pushing your fitness at least make sure that you're not both pushing fitness and mountain savvy skills as well. Pick one or the other. Yeah, I think as we kind of wrap up the section, I think it's so interesting that kind of balance between, as you're saying, like trying to not be competitive but also trying to run with people and trying to kind of develop but develop yourself but then also develop within that kind of framework. So it's very much a balancing act between a lot of different things but if you do get it right, it obviously can be pretty rewarding in the beginning. Hugy, so I think that social aspect in running with people is a big part of the sport, a big part of the driver and how most people are introduced to it. Not very many people just decide to go run on the mountain alone out of the blue. Most join some friends join one of the local running groups or witty runs that might happen and they're a huge sort of asset in terms of getting into it but I think it's important to know when on average you're training a little too hard potentially as a beginner which is a more likely case and further down the line where the group runs might be a little too slow for you not actually shooting that runs purpose and knowing when to structure them but I think they're very few situations where a social run is a negative on the plan in terms of the averages of a week or a month of training. Yeah, you know when you're kind of out there running and you feel that it's it's now getting to that point where it's a bit uncomfortable and you're pushing yourself quite hard and how conscious are you of your kind of form and you know how like if it's kind of slipping or you know or it's just like I just need to push through this how conscious are you of that and how do you kind of correct it. Form is a tricky thing to correct in any kind of long or significant endurance event. You're probably better of trying to correct it in the gym and with you know drills and things like that beforehand. It's unlikely you're going to make any major changes in a run in the pain cave and things are going south. Ideally you know it's more about I guess managing intensity if your form is failing it's possibly because you're pushing too hard or you're kind of you know not in a sustainable using a sustainable efforts or maybe adjusting that first. Yeah, looking at nutrition, making sure that everything body-wise is in order and then yeah, dial it back reassess. Yeah, yeah, get back to work. Trail running beats up everything, your legs, your lungs and especially your feet. The last thing you need is socks that give up before you do. That's why I'm thrilled to announce that this season of trail chases is sponsored by Gil Nocki Socks. These aren't just your run-of-the-mill socks. Gil Nocki Socks are made for people who demand more, more performance, more durability and more comfort. They're designed to prevent blisters with premium moisture wicking materials that keep your feet dry no matter how long or muddy the trail gets. Plus they're treated with hydrocool and silver plus so they stay fresh, breathable and ready for your next adventure. Since I started using Gil Nocki Socks, I haven't had to stop mid-run to adjust or worry about discomfort. They just keep working mile-of-the-mile run-of-the-run so why settle for socks that don't keep up? Visit Gilnocki.com and use the code trailchases at checkout for 20% of your first order. Trust me, once you try them, you won't go back. Your feet will thank you. How do you regain that focus when it's just everything hurts? It's like you just redlining and it's how do you regain the focus that this is where I'm at. This is what's actually going on. This is where I need to go. I think it's a reminder of this is why you came here. That's usually the make-up break point. I think the point you just described is the reason for most of our anxiety or stress going into an event is like, do I have what it takes when it comes to that moment that you just described to make the decisions I need to make to have the day I want to have. So I think it's just a quick reminder that like that's why you got there. You came there to like overcome something. That moment is the thing you came to overcome. I think bringing it back to that and then going okay, I have two choices now. I tap off. Why get to work and see what I've got. It's not as simple as that. There might be very early in a very long race in which case tapping off is exactly what you need to do and reassess. It might be at that make-up break moment where holding on is what provides the result you want on the day. It's a very interesting and it's very important as well. But as you say, like I think when it comes to taking it back to begin as getting into it, I think that's why it's so important to manage that effort and take it slow rather than kind of. Meet that voice or meet that question when you're ready in incremental amounts and have more wins against it than losses and you'll trust yourself more and more. Either the distance is increased if that's your goal or if it's about pushing time and intensity, either way you're going to come to that same point of what now. Yeah. Moving on to I think something which beginners we've all kind of been there, as we've been saying, we just want to run and training doesn't really factor too much into that discussion. But it's obviously an extremely important part. As you're saying, starting out is the best time to get into those habits. In terms of structuring your runs, in terms of structuring your routine, to build endurance, to prevent injury, what is the best? Is there a standard way of doing it? Again, lots of factors to that based on who that person might be. But I think at its very core, the very simplest starting point, it would be the more you run the better you become at it. If that is introduced in a way that is safe, then it allows adaptation rather than injury. For that to be the case, the athlete needs to listen to their body. It's tricky because a lot of endurance running is telling the body to shut up so you can keep going and all of a sudden, we need to be listening to it at the same time. How do we know? I think trusting your gut between what is a niggle and injury, what is muscular pain and fatigue, the one is expected and required for adaptation and the other one will stop us from finding consistency. But I think focusing on consistency as a number one will be the first point. Can you get out there more frequently? Yeah. Shorter amounts, more frequently. Five days a week for 30 minutes is probably going to be healthier for you than a two and a half hour long run out of the gate. More frequent opportunities to adapt and recover and repeat rather than bigger fits that set us back for long periods of time. And then not focusing too much in terms of pace and the data really bringing it back to how do I feel is as comfortable because the biggest single decided is going to be volume. If you can get more volume in, you'll see more adaptations. So create a weekly schedule layout that allows you to do that in the safest way, recover between your sessions. So stand on top of your nutrition, post pre and post run, get enough sleep, manage your stress and repeat. It's so interesting because when you say it, it's like that's a lot of different things. But obviously if you're bringing it back to making it more manageable, then those things are not a lot of things because it's a lot smaller thing that you're kind of dealing with. Start by doing less more frequently, very manageable intensity as a single rule. And when that becomes comfortable and no longer taxing, add a little bit more and continue. Keep yourself in our first and obviously that's very dumbed down and simplified. But it's core. That is what is going through my mind when I build a plan. When I think it's what can we do to keep them healthy and doing this for long enough to see results? When you look at, I think the interesting thing with trail running is you're obviously increasing distance, but you're also increasing your verte. Society kind of balance that and what is the best way to increase your distance, increase your verte and balance the two of them. So I think the single change I can help in, this might be more applicable if someone's come in from a different discipline, maybe on the road running side, for example, to overt your trail. This distance doesn't matter quite as much as time. So your body only understands intensity and the duration, which was exposed to that. A two hour run on table mountain could be 15 kilometers. It could be 20 kilometers, depending on what that route might look like. So your body doesn't care. It was exposed to a stimulus that it will adapt to for two hours. So a good way to manage that is to use your weekly training volume in time as a way to manage that weekly progression or how long you're out there for. If you might have a week where you do 2000 meters of 50k in a week where you do none, and that might change by four hours when we do another. So time would be a much better way to manage that build up. And if you think of your body as a sort of tanker ship that needs to be nudged slowly in directions to change, whatever you bring in, bring it in slowly. So if you've been doing lots of flat running and the goal race might be a mountain race, where a lot more climbing is involved, when you bring the climbing in you might want to dial some of those other aspects back so that it has time to adapt to that new stimulus and reduce the risk of injury. Vice versa, you might have come from a block of lots of vert and lots of climbing and how you want to do a super runnable race. Now the risk becomes that repetitive running and then we bring that in slowly and transition across. And is there one over the other that would have more benefit to a person starting trail running? Was it also very person specific? So I mean, I think it needs to come back from the goal event. Like are they training for a race that is very high in terms of vert? In which case that's something I need to be exposed to, more than what is more beneficial. I think in terms of safety for the body, I think climbing and descending is generally easier on the body than a long, runnable miles, less repetitive, more varied in what's loaded. So it's much easier to go out and spend two hours, going up and down a mountain than it is to go and run two hours flat. If in doubt, spend more time climbing and descending, eventually. Yeah, I certainly also found that when building is the beginning coming into it and coming obviously not from a road running kind of background that the climbing and descending was definitely like the right way to kind of build that time and that build that base. It's probably also the most foreign to any sport that individual might have come from. So unless they're a mountain near and hiking is their background, in which case going up and down a mountain is what they do, then we would fill in the gaps that they don't bring. Most people don't aren't necessarily highly proficient at climbing and descending and probably what they would have the most to gain ability to climb aerobically and while also the technical ability to descend quickly, your average beginner climbs too hard and descends too slowly or really so to the ability. And how do you kind of encourage bringing in that kind of strength training, cross-training aspect of it, especially as a beginner, starting out, you think running is just running, how do you kind of get the importance of that into someone's kind of program or into someone's mind? It's tricky because some people want to do all the sports and they kind of throw themselves at it and some purely want to run. Very often in the beginning runners when they jump into a training plan might be doing less running than they thought, generally against what their motivation might be. So you could sell it as a way for them to get out there and be outdoors more often even if it's on a bike or hiking whatever that other discipline might be. It's usually valuable, especially cycling. But yeah, I think just the importance of like let's focus on getting your active more often now, keep the running at a controlled safe volume and transition across to more running when there's a level of conditioning to support it. What does the cross-training kind of do to you, especially as a beginner? So running is obviously quite a sort of high impact sport. Not necessarily a dangerous one if it's brought in safely enough, but it is definitely limited by the volume one can do is limited by the conditioning. But something like cycling, for example, to jump on a bike and do a one, two, three hour ride, is a lot easier on the body than the equivalent time spent running. Yet it's still building our cardiovascular fitness. So we're able to work on the other systems without the limitations that running might have for a beginner while we build that up. And yeah, I guess it allows the athlete to move in different dimensions, different directions, exposure to more than that singular direction that running is generally provides a healthier athlete. And things, one of the trickiest things for beginners is the pacing element. And is that kind of just a matter of experience or are there kind of tangible things that you can do to kind of work on your pace? So experience is huge for sure, and that trust in yourself and knowing what you can sustain for a period of time helps pacing hugely. Linking back to beginners not necessarily having very clear defined zones because just running will probably take them to a point of being breathless. But the talk test is probably the single most accessible and universal metric to manage how hard you're working at a given time. And it's obviously limited by your respiratory rate. So how hard do you breathe in? We're then related to how hard your heart's pumping and how hard you're moving. So if you work back from that, you know, you can split your zones up into three easy moderate and hard. And you could, you know, say full sentences to your friend next you are running in a zone two zone one effort, very comfortable. You're happy to chat, it wouldn't be a problem. Your next level up would be, you know, threshold slash tempo type effort where you could probably get out a few words before needing to get a breath and you wouldn't want to do that for too long. And then that final, you know, max effort would be no conversation at all, you know, breathing as as hard as possible. And I think simplifying it to those three zones for a beginner and one to spend as much time as possible in that easy one at the bottom able to talk. And you know, once or twice a week can dip into those those two harder efforts. Yeah. Heart rates, unfortunately floats and won't be, won't be especially in the beginning when everything is almost red line, won't be accurate. It's affected by temperature, hydration, all kinds of things for tea. And then pace on trail where it's rocky or climbing doesn't have a easily comparable sort of, yeah. And so you are the talk test for me would probably be the starting point. How do you kind of encourage beginners to manage the kind of mental side of it when everything is kind of feeling uncomfortable and every time you kind of want to quit? Yeah. Well, if it's always uncomfortable and you always want to quit, you'll probably be training too hard on average. And you probably need to dial it back. You know, you probably shouldn't be running all the hills in the beginning. It's probably why you're why you're getting taxis, especially if you come from the road where walking is failure. And you enter your first trail race or join your friends in a trail run and try and run all the hills. At some point, they'll catch up to you. So I think dialing back the effort allows you to enjoy the running a little more and therefore be more consistent, have a better relationship with it and do more. The idea behind managing those intensities in the week is the goal is to do as much as we possibly can. And if we dial it back and keep it easier, we don't take as long to recover and then we can do more of it, provide more stimulus, more dedication, more fitness. So it suits you in the long run to dial it back and take it easier. I think that's such an important principle as well for beginners to kind of learn when it comes to training yourself in the beginning for trail running. You know, it's that consistency, but also, you know, it's not meant to be incredibly hard and ideal comfort zone in the beginning. So maybe that means walking off and maybe that means calling it a hike and then back down again. You need to frame it to keep it easy. Yeah. And it won't last forever. That's the two coming to a little bit of a break now. When when you're out running and you know, you've been on the trails for quite a while, what is in your in your pack that you're kind of reaching for? I guess, yeah, you know, when you get to that kind of like three, four hours and everything hurts and you're starving and yeah, from the fresh water with no sugar in it. I mean, obviously we need the carbs, but I think my go to is generally just cold fresh water. Yeah. Yeah. After enough gels and carbs drinks. Yeah. So something else. And food wise? Food wise, I personally struggle to eat, to be honest, so probably baby potatoes salted baby potatoes are probably all that's going to go down. I think as a beginner, that's another important tip is salted baby potatoes. Yeah, I think it's the most easily carabou, carriable, digestible, palatable, single item. You know, I think I think the big one is, you know, there's so much daughter out there already in her own beginners and getting into trail running and the kind of the mistakes that are made and people obviously keep keep making them. So in an attempt to I guess to kind of try and get people not to not to to be making them, you know, what are the kind of biggest mistakes you see people making when they're when they're starting out? Number one is probably running too hard on average. So intensity and we've bounced on that topic a few times today, but I think running too hard either in a pursuit of peer pressure or wanting to perform at a level off the bat. So running too hard, not listening to the body, ignoring cues that are likely to be future injuries earlier on. And then, yeah, as it as that sort of intense distance builds generally nutrition, it's significantly neglected. They have limits that are purely nutritional. Yeah, it was a bit of fear on board, they can generally do a lot better. Yeah, it's like Oscar and experienced runner-up mistakes they're making now and then fix those because it's it's kind of all the things you ignore in the beginning that then crop up like later on. And I think another thing that's that's not talked about enough is kind of, you know, the importance of of shoes. You know, I think everyone like as a beginner, you're either going, you know, the cheapest or you're going whatever your friend wears or, you know, whatever looks cool, you know, how important is that to that beginning kind of or I mean, guess any part of your of your running? Yeah, I think you need shoes that fit well. And number one, I don't know if it that sounds like a simple, highly simple thing, but on average, people are not wearing shoes for directly, they tend to, on average, purchase shoes are too small. And if you're out there for a few hours, we need a distal for you when your feet have swalled up and your mind is happy. So, getting that sizing right is probably for me more important than even whether or not you're using a road or trail shoe. But you can run a lot of trail on road. So I would say to start off run, run in the shoes you have, learn about how you feel in them, and that'll inform you as to what you might need when you purchase something else or what you might like. You don't need to buy the most expensive shoes out there. It's really not necessary. You need something that's durable with a decent amount of grip. If you're coming from the road, looking at something that is the geometry that is similar to what your body is currently used to, so if that's a lower drop or a higher drop, try and replicate that where you can. But you definitely don't need the fanciest out there to get started. You need a good fitting pair of shoes with some tread. It's a channel about it before, but it's also like where are you running and what races are you looking at? I think if it's very runnable, your road shoes will be fine. If you're going to jump into Newland's forest and run those cheap tracks and some of the connecting single tracks, you can probably get away with them in your road shoes. They'll probably take a beating. So you'll probably want to change them at some point so you're not going to choose quite as frequently. If you're getting into more technical stuff, where you might be doing some scrambling or much ruckier technical routes, then a decent trail shoe will start to be required. Over-training, how do you encourage people to pull back that overtraining element? I think it's also easy, as you say, how do you get that balance between running often and then obviously not running too much? I think being honest with yourself is important to a lot of us aren't. We believe that we're superhuman until our body forces our hand and we have force to stop due to injury or illness or something. I think the metrics like racing heart rate that you could track, HRV, heart rate variability can also help insight into overtraining. But before you even complicated with that level of insight, I think just being checking in with yourself every now and again, am I actually feeling okay today? Am I recovered from yesterday? Have I taken two or three rest days and I'm still feeling tired and fatigue and hasn't helped? So I think trying to notice patterns in yourself and how long it takes you to bounce back from different efforts will help you understand. If you have a coach, be honest with them about how you feel in. It's not a weakness to say that you're tired and need a break. Saying that earlier is probably very helpful. And managing intensity, dialing back, taking it easier, more often, not running everything super hard. And scheduling in rest before you need it is often helpful. If you don't schedule it, the body will schedule it itself and we'll be sitting there. Are there kind of noticeable signs that beginners can kind of pick up on that they that they've overtrained or that, you know, it's often you're like, I'm just tired because I never could sleep last night or something like that. So we need fatigue. Fatigue is what the body is adapting to. You've loaded it. It doesn't want to be loaded to that level again. It provides adaptations to kind of bring you back to sort of her mistakes or balance. But there will be fatigue and it's expected. It shouldn't last days and days and days. It should be something that, you know, with a few easier running days or recovery days, you kind of feel back to your old self and good. If we don't achieve that, it's probably worth looking at what's going on. Sometimes of other things, you know, muscle pain is expected. We expect some muscle breakdown and rebuilding to happen. Joint pain, aches, tendon, ligament pain, that kind of thing, you know, might be might sort of appear on bigger days in terms of distance or intensity. If it settles itself within a couple days or lower volume or rest, then generally good. But if it's week on week is persistent, get in worse and never fully going away, that there's just kind of signs that something needs to be checked out. Obviously discouragement and, you know, is quite a big one when you start, you know, because as we've said before, everything kind of feels hard and difficult. What is the kind of, I guess, the golden nugget to provide to people that it's like, it is going to get better, you know, but obviously it's easier to say that they actually believe it. But what is the, what is that kind of advice? I think if you bring the focus back to why they found the sport in this place, it's really helpful. It's easier to become discouraged when it's a very performance based and metric based, because it does take time. You know, your first 16 weeks are probably going to be pretty uncomfortable before you have fitness to show for all the hard work you've put in. And if every week you're looking at stats and, you know, actually going backwards, because you're more tired than you're off it in the first few weeks generally. It's problematic, but you probably found the sport because you enjoy moving through wild spaces. And if you can get rid of the metrics and just move, set your watch up so that all you can see is time, not distance, not verte not pace, not heart rate, and go and move and allow the body to move quickly on days where it has the ability to do so and slower on days where it doesn't want to and connect back to that. I think it's easier to offset that sort of lower motivation or discouragement that might creep in. And talk about building a base. So what is that wise and important and how I guess how can you how can you do it. So people, yeah, people talk about the base. What is it? So it's it's a few things. It's it's your exposure to that sport, or stimulus is your base. And that might be years. Overall, it also might be short term. So, you know, often there's a base phase and a build up to an event, which might be exposing you to lots of easier for volume to build your base. Or your aerobic base is what it would be called. But it's, as I said, it's also your running age. So begin your base is probably pretty low. And that base then also limits what type of workouts and what other sort of efforts we could expect the body to handle. So the bigger the base, the more exposure you've had to lots of easier for volume, the more room we have to add on higher intensity workouts, volume at higher intensity and things like that. So building your base is something that you do in the short term. So, you know, for maybe two, three months in the build up to an event. But also how long you've been training overall. I want to ask you know an interesting question is I think it tells a lot about a person, you know, when you're out running and the rain comes down. You know, where where are you going? Are you pushing through? Are you heading back down the mountain? I love it. Like bring it. I mean, ideally it happens when I'm already running. Yeah. I might say I starting in the rain is a different experience. Yeah. But if I'm out there and I'm warmed up and it starts pelting down and yeah, just bring it. Give me your best. Let's go. And then you went to some. I am probably more winter. I give me snow and sleet and rain and I can. I love it. I struggle in the heat, I guess. I think that's also, you know, I think I was chatting to someone today about that beginner stage. And I think it's a lot easier to manage the effort in the rain than it is in the heat. Absolutely. So I mean, one's conditioning for the heat or exposure to that and management of that is very much fitness related. So the fitter you are, the less the heat will have an effect on you and give you an intensity. And for most beginners, you know, as I said, they're ready likely to be in the red to the moment they start moving. You add heat to that and it gets exponentially harder. So, yeah, winter helps. But obviously comes with its own safety issues in the mountain and awareness of that and your comfort there. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's like if you if they had the opportunity, would you kind of then advise people to kind of start running in winter. And obviously it's, you know, when you start is when you start, but is it is a kind of a better place to kind of start? I think in Cape Town, it allows you a little bit more freedom as to when you run into like as a beginner running at, you know, 10, 11 in the morning, the middle of summer is going to be hard going. Winter will be a lot more forgiving on that. So it could at least ease that in at its core though it's managing your intensity. Super hot and you listen to your body and don't try and run a pace that you thought you could do. You know, on a cooler day, the heat is manageable. Closing off when you kind of look back at, you know, like your, your kind of journey, look back to kind of when you first started running and coaching, what is, is there anything you would kind of tell yourself or say to yourself, you know, when you kind of think about that in the running side and obviously on the on the coaching side. So what did I say to younger Aaron based on what I've learned? Yeah, probably stay consistent. I think I've, you know, I kind of go all in on things and I've when it was just me running that was, you know, all energy went into that and, you know, other things came up business, parenthood and stuff, which was quite difficult to balance those. I think if I had maintained consistency, even if it wasn't huge amounts of volume, I think I would have, you know, I think I would have appreciated that. In in your running and your coaching in running definitely in coaching. I don't know, I think I probably would have been less stressed back then, you know, taking on taking on people and the way that comes with that if I knew that it would, it would become what it is and I would feel as comfortable doing it as I have become. I could have said myself a little anxiety, I guess. Yeah, yeah, obviously you love this and you love, you know, the running and you love the coaching. What is that rewarding, you know, what is the kind of thing that that keeps you going keeps you coming back on both the, you know, the running side and the coaching the coaching side on the running side, I guess it's that finding that flow state or that, you know, those days where it all just clicks and works might not be a PB. It might not be your fastest because we all get all the things changing what we can achieve, but that feeling of effortlessness and in the sweet spot of being able to like hold an intention. for what feels like could be forever. Like that pursuit is probably the single greatest for me. And as a coach, I think that like being lucky to be able to experience what I experienced as a single runner pursuing goals and walking that path with people is really rewarding. I think, you know, as a runner alone, you get to do it for yourself as a coach. You get to experience it every week. - Yeah, no, it can imagine it must be pretty rewarding to have that kind of-- - It hasn't hasn't lost. I mean, it comes with bad days too, and you ride those and you get those as well. But I think that would be-- - I think someone, you know, and said to me, it's like, it's nice to kind of take a break from achieving your own things to then being able to celebrate other people achieving things. And it's kind of like you have to do it, rather than like, oh, yeah, I'm happy for you, my friend. You know, it's like you, something that's-- - And it's cool that you have to cause you their coach. And I mean, you're paid to do this, but also you do become invested. You do see their growth. And it is a very real investment that you have in there in their success. - We did chat a bit about it, but on next episode in the series is all about shoes. And we've actually got Jono from the run store coming into chat to us. So, you know, what is the kind of the biggest mistake you see people making when it comes to choosing your first pair of shoes? And then also, I mean, how important is it to get something like Jono or pop into the run store? - I think it can save you a lot of headaches by getting fitted correctly off the bat. Price of shoey relevant, I think, get in something that fits you correctly. You don't need to run 150Ks, do you want to case in them to realize that they don't work at which point you can't change them. And then start again. So, going to a store that have, you know, good experience in that fitment and are able to take you through that process is hugely valuable. Biggest mistake is probably people looking at shoes and thinking they need a whole lot of trade. Something that looks like a soccer boot, you know. Unless you're running in really soft mud, you don't need super big lugs. You need something with better protection, moderate lug depth or lug size. And you're close enough to what you know, it's not too much of a shock to the body, you know. - Looking forward for yourself, you know, is there, you know, bucket list things that you want to achieve, you know, I guess in the running side, the coaching side, you know, what is the kind of the five year or one year, five year, you know. Don't think about too hard, just. - I think for my own running, I took most of last year off and I'm really kind of getting back into it with a renewed sort of vigor and appreciation for the sports. I have a couple of PBs that didn't get a lot of attention 10 years ago that I could probably revisit. So I'll probably be doing a bit of work on that personally. And then in terms of flat rock, I think just probably start, you know, looking into more ways that we can, you know, be helpful and assist to people we work with. - Yeah. - Expanding a knowledge base. We have some really good coaches on board. So looking at ways of upskilling them, as well as, yeah, just offering more to the people we work with. - You know, coming back to the beginning of the interview, I asked you about the socks. Have you had a chance to kind of think of what you would want on your-- - It's written on the back of the sock. - Yeah. - So visible to people behind you. - Yes. - Okay. - Keep up. - Love it. - Keep up. - Yeah. Thank you very much. That was amazing. - Awesome. - Yeah, thank you so much for joining me. And I really appreciate you taking the time and giving us some of your guidance. - Absolutely pleasure. Thank you for having me. - Subscribe to the trail chases today and ensure that you never miss an episode. 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