Co-Parenting Without Court Orders: The Real Rules and Red Flags You Need to Know

What are the real rules when it comes to what happens with the kids? Today's episode, we're going to be talking about that. Whether you've just separated or you've been separated for a while, or you haven't got caught orders yet, we're going to be exploring all the things that you may come across as you go through this journey. And at the end, we'll also be talking about how to navigate this based on the divorce personality type you're dealing with, as well as how do you navigate this if you are in a domestic violence situation. Welcome up. Hello, Laura. Hello, everyone. Now, before we get started, just to remind our moms, not your lawyer, I'm not a lawyer. And we may be talking about domestic violence. So if you do feel triggered by that, please call 1-800-RESPECT, or 13-11-14-LIFE-LINE. And of course, always go and get your own legal advice as each situation is different. And this is just a general discussion. So this may not be relevant to your particular situation. So let's get to the jingle. Let's get started. Hello, I'm Laura, a divorce mother of three. And I'm here with my mother, Lynette Galvin, with 35 years experience and family law. You're listening to the divorce course podcasts. Through our candid discussions, we hope to help you through your divorce or de facto separation. We will be answering the most commonly asked questions and covering the stages and steps that you will face on your way to freedom. Now, mum, we've had a lot of questions recently around this, and you've had a few phone calls around this. And so we thought we should touch on it. I really want to get into the needy gritty of it, but I think we need to do a basic overview to start with. Okay. So mum, I guess anyone who's listening to this, there's all these myths and things flying around about what people should be doing and they shouldn't be doing when they break up. And are there any rules at all that people have to follow before they've got official court orders? Laura, giving a typical lawyer answer. There's no rules written down, but the things that you do in early separation may have consequences for you in the future. The only rule I would suggest is the one that any good parent has and that is to put the children's interests first and don't put them in harm's way. You've pretty much just given a very lawyery answer. So we're going to get into the needy gritty of the, so we know, because people are listening and I know that they're at all different stages, but they always have this niggling feeling, am I doing the right thing? So basically you're saying the number one rule to really run by any decision you make should be, is this in the best interest of the children? Because that's what the court does look at eventually. The courts will run a rule of what you've done. They'd have a look at everyone's behavior since separation if it comes to court. And yeah, you need to always be acting protectively and in the best interests of the children. But I don't think people don't plan, I don't think anyone, so in anything else we do, we're on YouTube, we're talking to people and we've probably been eagerly interested of going around all of our lives. But this suddenly being separated with kids and there's going to be two households. No one even thinks of that. And so your mind goes nuts, I think, just racing thoughts. What am I supposed to do? How am I going to do this? And everyone has a Jody from the lunchroom. Her situation might be different to yours. Yeah. And we're going to get into the different types of personalities that people are dealing with in a minute. But let's just touch on these questions that we always get out of. Okay. Far away. Can I take the kids with me when I leave? Yes, you can. In most cases, okay? If they're safer with you or if you've been their primary parent, it would be expected that the children, another question is, can I leave the children? And I would say to the person who's thinking, I think I'd be saying start as you mean to go on. And that is one of the big mistakes people make. Is they, for all the right reasons, right? I don't know where I'm going to be sleeping. I don't want to upset the children or just rubbed their routine and I'll start having time with them when I'm settled. That leaves the door open for the other person to exclude you going forward. Okay. So that old myth that's going around that basically says the kids have to stay in the house that you were in when you were married or together. And that's not real. Oh gosh. That's not what they've heard that. That can crop up as an argument. Like, oh, they say with me, I've got the house the kids have been in where it might crop up as a, there's no reason they can't spend time with me because after all they know the house. But the kids are more than a residence, aren't they? If it was that easy, I think anyone would separate, hardly anyone would separate with children because they aren't supposed to leave the children behind. So. And whoever's listening to this, they've probably already gone past that first initial breakup part where someone has gone, I can't stand another day. My ex, I'm going to go stay at Mum's house or whatever. But then as things settle, okay, we really need to sort something out with the kids. We need to figure out how this is going to work. So who gets to decide who the children live with and what time they get to spend with the other parent? Who gets that to make that decision? In a perfect world, both parents would make a decision in the best interests of the children, according to their, so it's the parents offering. So the parents get to make that decision? Yes, no one. So it's not written anywhere we've just noticed. There's no rule for a no rule. There are no rules. Think about this. You've been parenting those kids, born and that sort of give and take in a relationship even if you're not getting on very well. It's a bit bringing up children. So who's going to pick that you're orchestrating them? The difference after separation is just that there's a lot of hurt feelings and prep positioning of themselves to, I don't know, have more time with the kids or someone may be very hurt, that they haven't spent enough time with the kids and start to scramble. All of those emotions come in. What was a kind of a business of catering to the children? Their wishes are paramount, taking them where they need to go, doing the things they need to. Suddenly that gets muddied by people's feelings. And then you might find yourself in a situation where it's really hard to reach a grip. So in an amicable relationship breakup, maybe one person was always doing the school pickups and drop-offs and they were always doing the organizing, looking after the kids pretty much. So in an amicable one, they probably just continue the way it was going in the marriage. It's just now you're separated and making some time for the kids to see the other parents so that they continue their relationship, et cetera, if that's what works well for them. That sounds good. In an amicable one. And I wouldn't, and Mum, wouldn't you say there are actually people out there who've done this, they've never gone to court, they've never written a parenting plan. For sure. And they've just gone on their ways and done their things that they need to do. Absolutely. That's good. Lawyers don't see everybody with family long matters. So we only see some of them things matters. So yeah, I think people work it out. So a good test, kind of, to think about where the children should be with the person is what you do the day after the separation, or two days after. Who is the obvious person to drop them off, pick them up, something to bed? That little arrangement where everyone's, frankly, Laura, is before they get legal advice usually. Anglement is usually the true best interests of the child arrangement, as long as someone isn't being trampled over in their feelings. So let's talk about that then, that the manipulative, so they've gone to get legal advice. And they've found out, oh, oh, I need to work this into my favor. And if you haven't listened to the hidden connection between parenting and prompting, go and listen to that because sometimes people find out, manipulative controlling people find out, they're not interested in having the kids. Maybe they don't care about the kids, but they are caring about the kids. If it means it's gonna somehow continue to control you, or you're somehow going to get more money out of it, or all these things. And bonus points that can do both. If it could hurt you, embody you, and save them, target, and get them more inment and seen a lot of. That's where you end up in court. So how do people with the manipulative and controlling figure out who ends up with the kids? What are the best strategies to move forwards for someone who's separated and they're just in this limbo? Chances are a person who's been manipulative and controlling towards you has probably also demonstrated those behaviors to the children. Ask yourself what it was about the relationship that you couldn't tolerate anymore. And consider whether the kids are in the same position, whether they are at breaking point, whether they've seen enough, they still love that parent, of course, and what is the way that you can minimise the heart, the kids, with that be ready for those sort of people on the other side to push all of the boundaries. I really want people who have a manipulative and controlling type to really think hard and long before they come up with an agreement, because sometimes manipulative and controlling divorces end up with an agreement pretty quick or a parenting plan or consent orders shoved in their faces. And I think if you've got a manipulative controlling ex, you're probably still being manipulated and controlled. And one of the ways I've seen it through our members is, they feel guilt for their ex. - Oh, yes. - They feel guilty, yes. And they think that, oh, it would be horrible for my ex not to see my children, and I would feel so bad for my ex. Whilst their ex has done all these horrible things to the children and to them, they still have this empathy, [BLANK_AUDIO] - Did empathy that comes from being controlled? - Yes, is it empathy though? Or is it just putting yourself last at that, but theory, you know, the theory that if you're cooking dinner and you burn a top, usually the person who cooks the dinner, the mum probably has the burnt chop. Although my family, everyone got one burnt chop. - I love the burnt chop, mum. We had all, well that's how I caught it. - That's how I learned that from you. (laughs) - But yeah, so I see what you're saying. So putting yourself last back, but the problem is, I think because people are still in a coercively controlling relationship. They are manipulated and controlled into making agreements to the children. And I've seen it so many times with our members and listeners where they've agreed early on and then eventually once they've come out the other side that had space and distance from a controlling person, they realize, wait a minute, this has all been, this has all been manipulated. And why did I make that decision back then? And don't kick yourself for it, but I think if we can grab and catch any people in that moment in time before they're fully out of it, to just let you know that you don't have to come up with an agreement straight away, do you, mum? - No, you don't have to have anything in writing. It's breathtaking how fast some people find themselves in mediation before they've really properly absorbed the reality of the situation. But when you step back from situation and if you take the children away from situation, gradually you can see more clearly what was going on. But yeah, it is that kind of thing, but you don't have to have anything in writing. No one can make you sign anything. - Get some counseling and get some understanding about the situation you're in and thinking about what is the best interest of the kids. And if you can't trust yourself to make that decision, talk to a psychologist, tell them what you're going through, explain the situation, get them to help guide you on deciding is this a good idea for the kids? And maybe psychologists can't tell you, but they can help you ask the right questions 'cause we do see it a lot where these people are sadly, and I hope if you're listening today, you haven't done this yet, but you've got that coerced and manipulated into agreeing out of guilt or out of worry for your ex because they're, oh, but they'll be so lonely or whatever the reason is, but you've got to try and focus on the best interest of the kids. It's fair enough, if you've been manipulated in the marriage, you're going to be manipulated after the marriage. So don't kick yourself and think of, I didn't even see it, it just comes out in a new way. It does. The best thing to do, I think, mum, you're saying with manipulative controlling is give yourself some breathing space before you agree to anything. Yes, I agree with that. And there's no rush to put in writing. Okay. And really, once you understand your own situation, then look at that, like you said, look at that in terms of the child's situation. And be very wary, it's hard enough for kids with separation, right? I don't think anyone leaves a marriage where there's children, unless they absolutely got to the end of their road and they had to leave. So that should give you some guidance in looking at the children. And what were they learning in that situation? Were they learning that that's what marriage is? Or that's what a relationship is? I think you said it, Lauren, they say, in a plane, the oxygen mask will fall. Put yours on before you put it on the children. Yes. That's what you need to do. Make sure you're thinking straight. There's been a lot of gas lighting. So write things down, write pros and cons, and write down the things that have made you leave so that you don't start even questioning whether you're not because all of that feeds into your parenting. Yes, totally. Then let's go to avoid it. And these are the type of people that talk to us and say, oh, my exes just disappeared. Like, completely doesn't care, doesn't respond to any of my questions about the schooling choice or they've just gone off into the ether and they've gone off. They disappeared. Or they come now and then they drop in for five minutes or they pick up the kids. They say they're going to do it every second weekend, but they don't. So how do they figure out what to do with the kids within avoid an ex who just is old? Yes, again, you're going to put the children in center. And even though it can be as annoying as anything to have someone not turning up and it can drop to for the children, but you still have to look to the best interests of the children. So a lot of people accommodate as really bend over backwards so that there is at least some contact between the children and the other parent. So the children don't start wondering what's wrong with them. That their other parent doesn't want to see them. The other thing, though, as time goes by, the children will gradually become aware. And you can maybe put in place an arrangement that you will only have the children ready or deliver them to such a set, if you've been given notice of a few days' notice. Try not to ever set up an arrangement where you have to go to Maccus every second weekend at a certain time on a certain day in that weekend. And your ex doesn't turn up. So try and set up an arrangement if you've gone to avoid it where the kids will be unaware of whether they show up or not. Yes. You don't want to drag your kids to Maccus and sit there for five hours waiting for your ex. You want to have an option where yes, you can come like the kids, but we're going to be chilling at home. And if you don't turn up, it's not going to affect our day to day. The problem is, I think, for people who have this avoid an ex and we hear this a lot, it's frustrating because one, the parent who's got the kids, they want to have some stability for the kids. They want to just get on with life. They're like, OK, you've left fine, but can you not come and interrupt my normal routine for the rest of my life? So I understand why people get frustrated. But so basically, Mum, if the avoidant is just left, so the parent that's got the kids, it's really is it up to them to just do the parenting. They can make the decisions. They just don't need to involve the other parents. And that's what the law says these days, that one parent, in the absence of a court order, each of you can do all of the things for the children. So parties like psychologists, doctors, operations, they won't always require the other parent signature. The family law, it says they don't require the consent, but of course, as we've talked about the psychologists' boards and so forth, they may require them to do it. You just have to just keep on keeping on and creating arrangements where it's not going to inconvenience the kids' basic. Well, and also to make a rejected, because we have this. Come on, you're off on me now, and then Mumma doesn't show up and let down for them. So it's better to keep it like. I do like the orders that say, "Unless she gives me three days notice of what we can do coming or biting to them, I may not be there when you come to pick up the kids." So you don't have to sit at home waiting for the whole day. That's what I wanted to ask, because this is the other thing that happens with these avoidance. They all of a sudden go, "I'm coming tomorrow to pick up the kids, make them ready for me." Now, because there's no court orders for these people, I know that some feel like they have to do what they've been told by their ex at that time, because the kids also are their kids. What do you say to them? I say to them, "You need to determine if it's better for the kids to see their father, especially if they haven't seen him for a while." Or, "Mother." Or, "Mother, who are you?" Is it better for them to see that other parent or is it more beneficial for them for you to keep your routine and what your plans were for tomorrow continuing? So the kids might be going to something at BMX or something like that. You don't have to pull the pin on the activities, who hasn't given the three days notice or whatever. So you can set up some good boundaries, and we've got a really good list episode on boundaries setting, and you could say, "Okay, sure, you're going to just turn up at the drop of a hat or whenever you feel like it, but I'm going to set up some boundaries, and a good one is to be like three days in advance before or. If you want to be sure. If you want to be available, you give me three days notice. Otherwise, we'll make other plans, because the kids sitting at home can feel justice let down, as they can if you're taking them out to meet their parents. Or if they're missing out on BMX, like you said, or whatever. And so with avoidant, just remembering everyone, if you don't have court orders, you don't have to do what your ex says, just try and do what's in the best interest of the children. All right, so high conflict, how do they figure out what happens with the kids? That is really tricky. That's really going. I have had a case years and years ago, where they couldn't agree on a school. And so the children were going to one school one week and another school the next week. So if you've got high conflict, if you don't have any orders, nothing's written down, then you can do what you need to do for the children. But expect interference, so to speak, from the other person. They may initiate gentleness or I tests or things. And if they want to do that and they want to pay for it, that might be good, that might suit you. But sometimes, exes, they're not co-parenting, they're counterparenting. So you get to kiss the vaccination, they tell the kids their poison to know because the needles they can get into, see an orthodontist, they tell the kids how painful it's going to be and that there's no reason for them to be going. And that really messes with the kids. So in those early stages with the high conflict, sometimes having a parenting plan can stop some of the drama because it's going to be about what time, where, with, who, you know, and that constant fighting over, no, I want them this weekend because I've got aren't Sally's thingy things. So if you can create some sort of plan with your ex, even though they're high conflict, even if it's their plan, as long as it's good for the kids, then at least you've got something to stick to so they can't constantly fight with it. And we're going to talk about it in a minute when should you get parenting? orders are supposed to relying on a parenting plan. But so, amicable, avoidant, manipulative and high-conflict can all go to a mediation as well. You don't need to see a court, you can just sort it out amongst yourselves. If you want to come to an agreement and you can't, you can try mediation. All of those types can try mediation. And then of course, if you want, you can take it that next step further. If you still can't sort it out, you can get court orders or a consent order once you agree. And then you talk about when you stick to a parenting plan or when you need to go to orders. So, mum, what are the benefits of a parenting plan? Parenting plan helps everyone be clear they stand. To what? And that stops the fights. That's fully fight. It stops the fight. Yeah. Or it's like the ultimate determinative you can't manage to agree. The one thing about that is it's unenforceable. You can't go to court to that order. It isn't the final answer either. It can, if you've got a parenting plan and someone wants to file in court for a children's orders, the parenting plan doesn't stop them going to court to get orders. And I think we should really put that in bold because we've heard some people who've been stuck in these horrible situations, particularly the manipulative and controlling or family violent situations where they've agreed to a parenting plan in the early stages, maybe in a mediation or something, because they didn't know how bad it was or whatever the reason. They're seeing it with their eyes through the kids. This isn't working. This parenting plan doesn't work. And then for some reason they have to keep doing it. And mum, what do you say to those people who feel like the parenting plan has to keep going even if it's not working? Well, it is just a plan. Okay. And you are not bound by it. Okay. And if someone goes to court to clarify or get new orders, the court will have a look at it. And you can explain why it doesn't suit. But yes, parenting plans are often entered into in those very early stages. And like we said, all of that coercive control and guilt and confusion and grief all gets mixed in there. So sometimes the parenting aren't the best for you. I think we should mention there because you said the parenting plans do get looked at if you're nothing court. So if you are in those early stages, it is that big catch. Like you said, mum, start as you mean to go on. Or the flip side of that is why did you agree to the kids doing 50, 50 or 80, 20 if you think it's a such a bad idea if you've already agreed to an parenting plan. They're the kind of questions that are going to ask. That's right. And also the difference between supervised time and unsupervised time when a court looking at whether a parent can move on to unsupervised time when they look back in the history and that person was having unsupervised time for the first. And your answer is usually that was before I had legal advice. Said, or before I had counseling, I realized how bad the situation was. And you know, with a parenting plan, you don't even really need to witness. So these are things that can be put in the table in front of someone who's very upset and sign this. And that's the reason that they're not binding. Okay. So parenting plans are good because they're flexible. They're not enforceable. So then we've got formal court orders which are definitely not flexible. Oh, they can be if you need them to be if you've got it in there. But they're forever. They're enforceable. And right up until the kids are 18. Okay. So let's look at the different personality types. So we've got amicable. Yeah. Should amicable be getting formal court orders or should they just be working on a parenting plan? I always think that consent orders, which yourself in the court, are useful for locking in arrangements while you are still amicable because it only takes a little thing, a new partner, a new baby, a diagnosis, loss of a parent and somebody's thinking. So I'd like to lock that in early as an agreement. And the court won't make that order unless they think it is in the best interests of the children. And you have to have someone witness to signature on it. Or seat. Sometimes it's good because it means if anything goes a rye later, then at least you have got those in place. Okay. What about manipulative and controlling? Is it better to have a parenting plan or should they be trying to get formal agreement consent orders in the court? Look, I think that the cost of going to the court and get to get consent orders or orders about the children is always higher if you've got a manipulative and controlling person. However, I think it's worth it because you've got a minute of them controlling it. And if you don't put it an end to it at some stage, you will have that kind of push back and coercive control right up until the children are out of age. And it's usually, I think, the manipulative parent who starts working on the kids when they turn 12. Oh, you're old enough to make your own mind up. Just tell Daddy that let's not go there. I'll take you to, I don't know, under whatever. Don't go. I know that there's a lot of pressure than put on the kids. I've seen kids totally relieved when they find out that you say to them, but it's not your choice, but these orders were made and mummy and Daddy were on them. And they're so relieved. All right. So sometimes, yes, it's a good thing. But I think you need to think about it in regards of a protection for you and your children against a manipulative and controlling person. If you can get them to agree in mediation awesome, if you have to go to court, sometimes that's what you have to do. Yes. And a manipulative and controlling person, which seems to align with the narcissistic type personality, then never going to see their flaws or their any fault in them. And so it's very easy to spot in the witness box and not very easy to spot by the family report writers. If you've got an ex who's a home devil and a danger, then you make an incident with the report writer that she's all sweetness and light and you're the friend from hell. But in my experience, family report writers are able to identify those types of personalities. And can I point out here, I know people think, I don't want to go to court because it'll be stressful. There'll be heaps of drama and a cost of money and I get all of that. But with these types of people, what I've seen is some people, they just deal with the drama and everything settles down again. They deal with the drama, everything settles down again. They do this for five, six years anyway. And then they have to go to court when the kids are a bit older because it all falls apart because there's some big argument. So they end up in court anyway. So sometimes I think for these type of people, if you always have to have a big drama about everything, maybe going to mediation, trying to get an agreement or if not getting the judge to come up with an agreement in the early part, the soon art instead of waiting for five years later and then going through it again. I agree. And also too. It may sound weird, but if you've got kids who are like, I don't know, five life, you can can order a consent or you can make an agreement to be turned into an order that is suitable for those children up until they're 18, right? Because the court says every family gets one hearing unless there's been a radical change in circumstances. And it's there's only been a few times where it has agreed that the kids getting older was a reason to reopen children's matters because the court generally has the view and it's backed by science and reset that the litigation itself is very harmful for children and putting them through it more than once, even though you think you're not involving them, even though you think they like the family report, right? No, they, this is stressful for them. It impairs each of your parents, I think, usually as you go through court. And so there's a lot to be said for sitting down and working it through and so that you can definitively say to your family, for instance, oh, yes, I've got the kids for Christmas that's here that year we can go to Fiji. Once and done and once and then that way the kids aren't putting through it, being put through it every Christmas, who you're going to like the argument and the uncertainty. Okay. So let's get on to avoiding should avoid them people and this is one of the, we wanted to do a whole episode on this, but we can't, but it should avoid an, but with that avoid an access who just disappear or they're not doing anything, they're really not interested. They shout for a bit then they disappear again. Should they be locking in parenting orders or should they be sticking to a parenting plan? You're invited to our free webinar whether you're stuck at the beginning of deciding to divorce or you're struggling to find your way through the legal jargon and fear of the unknown of the legal process. We are here to empower you to take control. Join us to learn what steps you can take followed by a live Q&A where you get Lynn, my amazing mum and family law accredited specialists to answer your question. All you have to do is go to www.thedavourscourse.com.au and click on reserve my seat. We'll see you there. Hurry spaces are limited so don't miss out. Register today. Okay. So let's get on to avoid it. We didn't. Should avoid them people and this is one of the, we wanted to do a whole episode on this but we can't but it should avoid in excess who just disappear or they're not doing anything they're really not interested. What do you think about that? Probably not going to be able to make them stick to it. The only one sticking to it will be you which creates a bit of a rod from back. If you think that they might agree to this then you could have children spend time with you. I'll live with you and see the other parents from time to time as a breed between the parties. Leave it like that. It's open to interpretation, but it locks in where the kids live so that you don't have that worry in your mind. Because we do see these avoidance disappear, come back two years later with a new partner, and the new partner's like, "Where are your kids?" "Oh, my ex won't let me see my kids." And then they, "Oh, you better take them to court or you better start, I want to see your kids." And so this new partner can be the driving force for litigation and drama with the kids. So mum, you're thinking sometimes it's a good idea to lock that order in that says the kids live with who's there with, and then they see the other parent at all times agree between the parties. Which you point out basically means you both have to agree. Yes. And if you don't agree then it doesn't happen. And for the court, if you had a contested hearing and you asked a Dutch to make that order and I've been to a couple where that was the order sought by us, looked out by us. The Dutch has to be pretty sure that you, the one who's wanting to be able to call the shots, are going to be guided by the rest interests of the children and not be a malice sort of thing else. But it's interesting. All right. So, high conflict among parenting plan to start with and then they should jump into orders or what are your thoughts on high conflict with parenting orders? Yes. Parenting plans find if it were, okay? A high conflict person might have to find the pinch points, the little areas where it's the parenting plan is not clear and they can annoy you and argue with you. No, that's not what they say. So sometimes it's a good idea to practice with the parenting plan. Oh, that's good. Yes. So in the course we talk about 12 agreements, right? Because people, if you get GPT for instance, to tough tough something, it's not going to think about the people three days and what if the people three day fall a stir or there's a lot to think of. And if you've got two people of goodwill towards each other, succinct and brief orders, dot points would be enough for them to operate effectively and look after the children. If you've got high conflict, you're going to be spending, I suspect the parenting plan stage plugging up holes that you didn't know were there. And then by the time you get, then you can go into your consent orders knowing that the parenting plan found all the weaknesses, so to speak. That's such a good point because yes, we've got an episode called the 12 agreements. I think we've also got all, I think, oh, no, in the course we do about the Wadi, if so, it's just important and that is good. It's a good idea to look for those holes. Doesn't matter what type of ex you've got. Look at the holes and go, okay, every time this crops up, there's a big argument because I don't know. The second Sunday doesn't match with this one or Easter falls on the moon pattern or the date. Or if I look at it this way, they're going to spend every child's birthday with that. It was. It was advocate to print out, sorry, being such old fashioned, but print out some calendars that have the school terms marked your state print out maybe even a full year's worth of age. See how your work and I used to do it. I'd take them, I would take them still and you use a pen and cross out the days for you and mark the others for them and just see how it looks and wears the gray area. What do you do if your ex doesn't stick to the parenting plan? As long as it's not depriving you of time with your child, if they're not coming to get the child, then really, it's not my problem. You can do it even if you had a quarter order. The court can't enforce that or won't. They're not going to make a parent go and collect their child and spend time with them because how could that possibly be the best interest of the child? So if your ex doesn't follow the parenting plan, what if it's the other way round? What if the ex takes the kids and bails when they're meant to be talking often? Then you would be getting across and probably bringing an urgent application if the children are needed back urgently for interest or you would go straight into your pre-action procedures in bite-mediation. But I would think in that case where they've withheld the children's contract to a parenting plan and you are worried about the kids' welfare, then you might want to bring an urgent application, be started by emailing the register with the documents and getting the court to ratify. All you would need to do is attach the parenting plan, say how long you've been following it and say what's happened. Okay, but get legal advice and there are lots of free legal services that will support you doing that as well. Some people are really wanting to get orders as soon as possible. Yes, yes, that's it. I'll just get that done. It's done. They just want to get it over with. They want to get the divorce paperwork. They want to get the parenting agreement and the property done and then they want to walk on. And look, totally understand that, especially if you let you're the one who's left your ex. But Mum, is it always a good idea to get orders straight away? Not always. You do need to make sure that what you're agreeing to, you can live with. You're not being like we were saying, not being somehow propelled by fear or guilt or conflict or whatever it is in trial. So recently we've had some people who you've spoken to and we've had in the group and we realised they were pushing for orders. And they were already in an environment and everything was happening with the kids exactly how they wanted it to happen. But they were the ones that were trying to go to court. So can you explain that dynamics so people understand so that anyone who's doing this mistake right now doesn't make this mistake? Yes, we've had I think four or five people I've spoken to over the last few months. I know that people want to settle things. They want consistency for the children. However, if the other person isn't going to play ball and isn't going to come and collect the children, then there's really not much you can do. So if you go to court, it's two sides of a quaint. You also have to make the children available at that time, every single whatever it is, week or fortnight, even though the other person almost never shows up. So it's quite a big obligation on you. But there was also the other situation that we dealt with where the kids were with the parent full time and the ex was like, I want to see the kids and they were like, it's not safe for you to see the kids. I'm going to keep the children with me. But then that person who had the kids was thinking they had to file in court. Yes. Can you talk about that situation? I'm sorry. So one of the things your lawyer will do for you if you have one, they will know all the things that they could do, but they should also advise you on the things that you should do. Sometimes people think they had I get orders in the court, but when in reality, no orders is the perfect answer. If you've got the kids as well, often as you want them and there's no debate about that. In fact, if you're only worried because they don't go to the other person often enough, really you've got everything you want. And the way that the family or act was amended means that you alone can take them to whatever medical appointments they need. If your ex has an issue with how it's happening, let them take you to court. Don't you go to all the effort of filing all the documents and spending all the money, let them do that. And sometimes those really loud, angry exes who want what they want and they want it now, let them, if it's safe, let them file in court. And then they're going to be in court. And they're going to be in court. They're in consistency. Yeah. So just a summary of this before we go on to the DV part. Parenting plans are great when trust still exists, when you can work to some extent with your ex. Flexibility is great until it stops working. Then you need to move forwards. Court orders protect you from when there's risk of manipulation or repeated conflict. So in sometimes that can be good. But if you have it too soon, you might be locked in to risk and manipulation forever. So you've got to make sure you wait and see where the holes are going to be or be educated as much as you can on it. And you can update parenting plans whenever you want. You don't have to keep following it if it's not in the best interest of the children. But orders really either need both of you to agree to change it or some very big deal for a court to consider changing orders. So that's why you really got to think hard about which step you want to take. So let's talk about family violence. And again, trigger warning. You can call 13, 11, 14 if you feel triggered. And we've talked a little bit about it already. So when it comes to figuring out what to do there, if you've got a domestic violence order, always. against your ex. How do you navigate time with your kids with them? The section 60B of the family law racked here, the objects of the part A) to ensure the best interests of the children are met, including by ensuring their safety. And they talk about the rights of the child can be made in life. So your focus needs to be safety for the kids. If it wasn't safe for you, is it safe for the kids or do they need to be seeing the person in a supervised environment? Contact center. Okay, so there's this option for people to see their kids in a safe way if there is violence or some issues. So what is a supervised contact option? So it's actually in degrees. So if a person is not really safe, it's not really safe for the child to spend a person with no else around. Then there's a couple of things you could do. One is you could perhaps try to reach agreement that they only spend time with the child or children at a certain person's place or in the company of a certain other person. It might be that's not an option. Then you might have there are what they call contact centers in Australia. And these are places that are really like big play kindies or schools where the the people who work there will monitor your ex and the child or children to make sure that all of the interactions are positive that they don't say anything wrong to the children that the needs are met if they need an happy changing or whatever like that. So that's a contact center. So you could say if you felt it was safe for your child to see your ex or their parent in a supervised way, you could look at the degrees whether it's whenever their mother is around as well or whenever I don't know, aren't your uncle is with them or if it's out of contact center. So their options that people could do. So what if you think it's they're just not safe and see supervised time is a bad idea and contact centers about idea and you couldn't trust anybody to be the person who jumped in between the kid and and trouble parent. Sometimes all particularly people from family violence situation, they worry at the children and the fact that it in a blink of an eye, things change. And in that case, I've seen some very brave souls who put themselves forward as supervisors. I will watch. I'll be within eye shot. Well, I'll be able to see but here and they might try to put themselves up as that person. It's hardly ever a good idea. We haven't mentioned zoom calls. I just about to do that. Face time, phone calls, which all can be supervised as well. And inside get so though in a hockey, right, of time, in a perfect world with everything working well, there should be unsupervised time with both parents. If there's risk, then there should be supervised time either by a family member in a contact center or you might think about whether you do the supervision and then lower down on that on that scale then are the zoom call and whatever other electronic communication. So there's a little bit of a if you're in a family violence situation. A zoom call might seem like a good idea, but make sure if it's on a mobile device, for instance, that your child's not around the house or showing daddy or mummy cooked for dinner, dad, those sort of things. You don't want that intrusion in your space if you have had been the victim of family violence. Is there ever no time at all? Yes. The court does from time to time, order and it's not it's, you can either if you ask the court, they will either make an order for some time or for no time, but sometimes this people just never turn up so they're actually having no time. So if the court orders no time, okay, then they may say that a person can send cards but only at Christmas Eve. Birthday, some of them may let the person between the child's living give them the right to have a look and vet the contents before they pass it on. And if they're that bad and they can send cards and letters, that leads it completely in the hands of the person between the child lives to just put them in the bin. Okay, let's hope that doesn't come to any situation for anyone, but I'm just wondering and we've seen this before, we were talking before about if you're in a manipulative controlling relationship, you may fall for agreeing to something that you later think is a bad idea. And we've talked about how the court goes with that person was so dangerous, why did you let them be around that person in the first place? And we see people manipulated into letting their kids go unsupervised to a parent, but also where they've been convinced, okay, supervised time will do that. They haven't got court orders, they've just agreed to super class time and then the parent realizes it's not working. Are they allowed to pull the pin on it? Yeah, so these are decisions, if you've reached a decision to go to a contact center, both parties have agreed for that, then the minute it's not court order, minute you stop agreeing, then it stops becoming something that's good. Although of course, like I said, if it ends up in court, the court looks back over and going on and wants an explanation. Hopefully that question of why did you allow unsupervised time when now you want all time to be supervised? I think now the court's more trauma informed, more aware of the impact of coercive control and that a lot of the times in the early stages of a breakdown of a relationship, the victim of coercive control often acts against their better judgment because they're easily swayed, they may have had a little bit with pushing and they just haven't got the strength to resist. And moving forwards to supervised time get locked in into a court order or it does. There's been a few cases where people have said, look, the court said, I don't think this is ideal. Supervised time is too out of toll, the kids are and we need to move on from there. And if supervised time is the only sort of time that can happen, well then maybe no face-to-face time should happen at all and they resort then to Zoom calls and things like that. You know, the worry about getting things right for a three-year-old in kind of crystal ball gaze to get everything from kinder to this year. I think we could just quickly touch on supervised contact centres before we go. We know that there's been some new changes where they're going to be trying to make it happen. There's some sort of compliance. What's the warning you've got for anyone who is considering supervised time about choice? I wouldn't be accepting the recommendation. I think that there are some cowboys out there. I think that's why the courts had to move to be at the centres. What they're trying to do is get the contact centre staff properly trauma-informed that they understand that when someone presents it and behaves properly with the children, that doesn't mean that person is perfect. So I think we've discussed a lot and I hope we haven't scared anyone from this and we're not saying don't get orders, we do get orders, we're saying consider all your options. But I think the main point I want to get across today is these decisions you're making. Don't be bullied into making anything or be told you have to do something and also be aware that whatever you do now and whatever you do agree to now, if you do end up in court, we'll be looked at. So it's even though it seems like we've just broken up. This isn't the important time. In hindsight, if you look at people as they go through our courses, what they did at the early stages really matters. And that threat of where going to take you to court if you don't agree to XYZ. A lot of the time when we've heard that threat and the members have told us, oh this has happened and they've threatened the take me to court. And mum always goes, oh good, the court will see what they've done. And so sometimes if you're self represented or if you're being bamboozled by the other side, they try and scare you into agreeing to things. So go and get some legal advice, educate yourself and go wait a minute. You may find out that you're being tripped. So just be aware that happens in the early stages, particularly if there's been violence that sometimes lawyers are trying to hustle as fast as they can to get an agreement so that you might not end up in court. So you avoid that, but that, but getting what's properly best for the kids. All right, I hope we've walked you guys through something that may help. I felt like we need to do a bit of an overview. I really want to get into the medical side of things because there's been some horrible medical things I've been hearing about. So stay tuned. We'll get into that soon. But thank you again, mum, and good luck to anyone who's trying to navigate this. We know how absolutely horribly stressful it is. And good on you for listening and learning and finding out what's the best for your kiddos. Because when it comes down to it, that's what matters. Thanks, mum. Bye. If you found this podcast helpful, we'd love it if you could write, review, and subscribe. By doing so, you are spreading the word to help someone else just like you. Lin would like to remind you that this podcast is general advice only and you should always get legal advice in relation to your particular situation. And remember that the Australian laws may have changed since recording.