Co-parenting with an addict: divorce & raising a son w/ autism ft Laura Clery

Thank you to Quince for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Let me tell you, the seasons are changing. It's starting to be time that we can get out our denims again. We can get out our sweaters and there is no better place than Quince. So many of the things I'm constantly reaching for in my closet to layer up, dress up, dress down come from Quince because they have very, very high quality products. I'm talking 100% Mongolian cashmere. They have silk, organic cotton, wool. They have those premium fabrics, but at an amazing price. Everything at Quince is actually priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And that is because they work directly with ethical factories, cutting out the middleman. So you're paying for high quality, not brand markup. Actually just last night, Matt was telling me that he grew out of his shorts. I don't fit in my clothes. I've been hitting the gym. And so I need new clothes. She bought me Quince swim trunks that are really high quality. I wear them all the time. We go in the pool with the boys. I'm excited to see what she picks out from Quince. Your nice khaki shorts are from Quince. With the khakis that I wear like literally every day. Those are from Quince. You don't even know where your clothes are from, but if you had to guess, they're probably from Quince because I love shopping their men's section as well for Matt. You can wear them in many different ways for many different seasons. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know in the comments below, and I'll see you in the next video. That unplanned sent you. It's the best way to support the show. Trigger warning. Please note this episode contains themes of abuse, suicidal ideation, and drug use. He broke into my house and threatened me. I was on my way to the courthouse to go get the restraining order. And as I hear bang, bang, bang, I turn and there he is. Oh my gosh. You probably know Laura Clary from her viral comedy sketches, standup comedy, or one of her New York times bestselling books. Over the last decade, she's built a devoted audience of more than 26 million followers. But behind the laughter, life was quietly unraveling. I look on YouTube and there's a video from him titled, I separated from my wife. I'm getting all this hate. You monster, you witch. I call 911 and I'm like, my son, he's six years old. He's nonverbal. He's been missing for 10 minutes. Obviously thinking of all the worst case scenarios, like, was he hit? Was he taken? Like, you just don't know if you're ever going to see your son again. We talked with Laura about her ex-husband's secret relapse, escaping what became an abusive relationship and raising a son with autism. All on today's episode. Just so that I pronounce it correctly, Clary, right? Some people say Cleary and some say Clary and I just accept both. I don't know how to pronounce my own name, last name. Are you serious? No, it's, I think it's Clary. You think it's Clary? I'm pretty sure. Who can we, who can we contact? Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Laura Clary to the pod. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. You know, I've never flown anywhere to do a podcast before. Oh my gosh. You're my first flight. We're so honored. Seriously, so honored. Honestly, you guys are so honored. We are. We are. Wait, what, what was it about us that made you like agree to flying to us? My publishers made me. What did they say? It's a great podcast. You need to get on there. I love that. Oh, sorry. Bleep that. We'll bleep it out. We can mute it. Oh, man. Sorry. I gotta watch my language. My daughter's five. She goes, I go pretend to be me. And she, and she goes, oh, I need coffee. That was her impersonation of me. And I was like, that was good. And then she was like, you guys need to get in the bath right now or no more screen time. We need to get in the bath. You're filthy. And that was her next impression. And then her third one was where the my purse. And I said, copy. I don't say that. She goes, yes, you do. So I really need to watch my language. Just bleep it. We definitely will. I think some people do listen to our podcast with their kids in the car. We typically keep it clean, but I'm curious. It's like for kids too. Oh, not for kids. No, not for kids. Yo, okay. Yeah. Okay. But I mean, hey, as a mom to a five and seven year old, what's your take on that? Do you let your kids cuss? Are you not about it? I think it's so funny when kids swear, but I also say if, if my daughter ever says a little swear word, I'll say, don't ever say that in school. You can, you know, say it at home. Fine. But never in school, never out. And she understands. I don't think it's a big deal. My son, when he's, and I don't condone it either. And I really do try to watch my language. You know, I just have a mouth like a truck driver. Unfortunately, I'm working on it. Progress, not perfection people. But, um, but my son, I remember he, he's on the autism spectrum. And so he was nonverbal. He was diagnosed just under two with level three, severe autism. And they were told, I was told he might never speak, might never be independent. And that was very terrifying. Um, so when he started to speak, every word was celebrated. So when he walked around going, oh, I was like, you know, it was to be celebrated. Aw, when was it that he first started speaking? Well, he just turned seven. And I would say around six is when he really started putting sentences together. Um, yeah, just spontaneous sentences. Oh, cool. Um, I remember just getting him to say one word was, it took hours and hours of therapy. And then now he's at the point where he'll look at me and go, mommy, let's go for a walk, you know, or I want toast and almond butter. Yeah. It's hard for him, but he works so hard at every word. How often? Cause I, I've been listening to your podcast. I've been listening to the clips from, from your show and you on other shows. Yeah. And it sounds like, it's, it's quite the, the problem with making sure your son doesn't run away because of, because of his condition. Um, you know, I want to say that you've said he just doesn't really sense danger. Like most other kids, his age sense danger. And so, I mean, there's been times where helicopters have had to go looking after your son, correct? That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Um, so it's called eloping. Have you heard of the term eloping? Just through learning about you, honestly. Yeah. I know there's like different, definitions. He was not getting married. He, it's, um, it's when, you know, kids on the spectrum will often, you know, want to go explore. They'll want to go or that, you know, it's in my son's case. It's not that he's just wandering aimlessly. He's on a mission. He's very self-directed and determined and intelligent and he wants what he wants. So they're extremely adventurous, but they lack a sense and curious, but they lack a sense of, you know, sense of danger. So they're not, whereas my daughter at five and at four, right. I'm sure your kids know, like I don't leave the house without my parents, you know, and my neighbor one time, um, Alfie, my son, I think around four or five hopped the fence to the next door neighbor. And I got a call, um, from my neighbor going, your son was playing with my barbecue at five in the morning. I've got security footage. I've been playing with my barbecue naked at five in the morning. And I was like, I'm so sorry. And can you send me the footage? And I am so sorry. So, you know, and then he literally, yes. And he played in their backyard and then he hopped back and went back to bed. So I didn't even know. And that's, you had no idea. So was that pre getting a security system installed? I didn't always turn on that alarm at night. And after that, I always turned it on. So after that, and that was like, I think he was around four. I'm not kidding. Um, yeah. And he, and so for about two months after that, every night around two or three in the morning, I would get woken up to crazy alarm. And then I come out and there's Alfie just like standing in the kitchen, like, you know, and then after that he did stop and, and now we're at the point actually where we, we bed share. So like, I know where he is at night and it's actually so cute and we cuddle and sleep so well. And my daughter loves it too. So it is. Yeah. I love it. So, um, prime eloping years are like four to seven apparently. So I'm hoping knock on wood that he kind of grows out of this, this phase. But I was, I was telling him before that, and I write about this story in my book. Um, what doesn't kill you makes you hotter. I have, um, over 26 million followers at this point across all my platforms. That's insane. It's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy. I've been doing it so long, you know, but, and so many of the women that follow me, I've been doing it for so long. I've been doing it for so long. And so many of them are, you know, parents of neurodivergent, um, kids. Cause I, cause I do talk about that and it is such a, like a unique struggle and, you know, but anyway, he last summer, he looked at me in the morning and he said, candy. And I said, we don't, uh, we don't have candy. And he said, candy. And I said, bro, we don't have candy. I'm sorry. And then I go off to yoga. And about 15 minutes later, my nanny calls me and she's like, he's gone. Oh gosh. Yeah. And I said, what do you mean he's gone? And she goes, I was packing his bag to go to the dentist and he's gone. We cannot find him anywhere. I'm driving around the route that we normally take walks on. Cause we go on like four walks a day. It's crazy. They never run out of energy. And so I hop in my car and I call 911 and I'm like, my son, he's six years old. He's nonverbal. He's got a red Spider-Man t-shirt on. And, um, as I'm speeding down the street on the, um, phone with the police, like obviously thinking of all the worst case scenarios, like, was he hit? Was he taken? Like, you just don't know if you're ever going to see your son again, you know? And then I see a cop on the other side. side of the street. I pull over, I rolled down my window and I screamed to the officer. I said, sir, my son, he's six years old. He's nonverbal, red Spider-Man t-shirt. The cop goes, yeah, yeah, we got him. He's at the Ralph's, which is a local grocery store. Okay. And he, my son figured out how to manually open the gate, my big gate where we thought he was secure on the other side of, figured out how to manually open it and walked 1.4 miles to the store to get candy. That dude was cooking. He goes, yeah, the cop goes, just stay right there. I'll, I'll bring them to you. And then five minutes later, another squad car parks the car, three cop cops get out and there's Alfie in front with a box of Sour Patch Kids and the biggest smile on his face walking towards me. Have you timed his mile time? Because that's pretty insane. I mean, 10 minutes, 1.4 miles for a seven-year-old? Come on now. He was six. Oh my gosh. I remember reading about that. That's like, I know he just knew what he wanted. So now I have trackers on him. He's got trackers on his shoes, tracker on his belt. Um, I triple lock all of my doors. I have key locks on the inside and you just, it is what it is. My life is never dull. Not a dull moment, baby. What does that bill cost? Doesn't don't like, I don't know if, if they have to send out a helicopter to track down your kid, did they send you a bill? No. Oh, no. And I'm really grateful of the part of town I live in. It's a little more suburban, um, parts of LA. And so it's a little quieter. And so the cops, they know Alfie, they know my son at this point and they love him and they understand that he's autistic. And this is, you know, they're just like, they just adore him, but they know him. Girl. You said he got diagnosed at two. Just under two. Yeah. What was just under two? Okay. So what was it that you were like, that led to that diagnosis? Yeah. He wasn't, um, pointing and clapping. That was, that's an indicator. He had a, like a few words that he would say, he would say mommy, daddy, monkey, doggy, and milk. Those were like the five words that he was saying. Um, and he sort of just stopped saying those words, you know, you could call it a regression maybe, um, where he just like lost the few words that he had. Then he started having these meltdowns, stopped looking at me. When he did look at me, he looked kind of scared. He was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And he's just sort of, yeah, those, those were the indicators for me. And then when I looked that up, like, why isn't he talking anymore? He just was talking and now he's not. Everything led back to autism. And so then I took him and got him assessed and, you know, I still think that they were harsh. You know, how can you know that he's quote unquote severe and will never speak or be independent and level three, like at such a young age. And I said that to the doctor, I said, no, that, and she said, this, this is my assessment. This is what I believe, you know, and she was wrong. You know, I, I don't know. I don't know if he'll be independent. I believe he will. He's so intelligent and so driven. He has, um, his special interests right now are shapes, but like not circles and squares. I'm talking like octagonal prisms, um, dodecahedrons. He's like, right. Draws 3d shapes all over the driveway. He, and he's just turned seven. I remember learning that. And is it true that, okay. So that's like geometry. Yeah. Is it true that you end up retaking geometry three times? Look, it just all went to him. It just all went to him. Are you dead? I just, I could never, I don't know. I don't know what it was. Maybe I just couldn't focus. You know, I was too busy trying to make people laugh or something. Three times I took it. Yeah. And I think I finally passed it with a D the third time. How does someone, couldn't pass geometry go from, yeah. So then writing, writing, you know, a book, not only one book, you've written two other books. You're a New York times bestselling author. How did you get into that? Well, cause it's not about geometry. I'm really good at creative writing. I was always good at writing comedy and essays. And so that was one of my only skills. In fact, really young, I knew I was going to write comedy in whatever capacity. I like wrote a letter to Lauren Michaels when I was like 10. I was like, dear Lauren, I'm going to be on your show and I'm going to make it so great. Love Laura. I just like kind of, I was one of those. I always knew what I wanted to do, you know, and writing was part of it. And so, yeah. What would you say the main differences from what doesn't kill you makes you hotter from the other books that you've written? Well, they're all, they're all, you know, they're all, they're all, they're all, you know, they're all, they're all, they're all, they're all, they're all, they're all, they're all, they're all, they're all, they're all, a collection of essays. So my first book, Idiot, which came out in 2019, that one, I was not, I was expecting my mom to buy it. I did not. It sold like crazy. And, um, this was my story of how I went from becoming a broke, suicidal, drug addicted, um, girl, you know, hopping from one toxic relationship to the next, to becoming a sober, spiritual, healthy, you know, at the time wife too, um, and living a life beyond my wildest dreams. I wrote about that transformation. So I got sober very young and just changed my life around. Thank God I did. Um, but that's that book that was idiot. And so it, I write about like my drunk logs and the crazy, dangerously impulsive situations. I got myself into like, um, like going to a bar and I met some like random Irish guy at the bar and he was like, do you want to go to Mexico? And I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? And we just like hopped in the car and drove to Tijuana with like this guy that I just met five minutes ago, things like that. And you were 19 hashtag relatable, right? We were actually engaged at night. Yeah. We, you know, that was when we went to Disney world and I proposed and I was, I had just turned 20. So I was a fresh 20 year old way. Yeah. We were recklessly in love. Getting, getting married, getting married as teenagers. Yeah, that is crazy. I would argue that's crazier than going to Tijuana with a random Irish guy. I'm just kidding. Yeah. But things like that, you know, I just, um, I was dangerously impulsive and just kind of reckless and wild and, um, you know, have drug addiction and alcoholism in my family. So I think I just like inherited that. And just, I think because I, I've always been also a go-getter and ambitious, I could just see in my early twenties, like, Ooh, I can't drink like my friends. Like my friends are able to like have a glass of wine and stop. And when I had one, I would want more and more, and then I would want drugs. And I just could see it progressing. And suddenly I like was caring more about getting high than I was caring about, you know, booking my next job or, or my friends or my family. And I could see it taking the priority. And then, so for me, my bottom was more internal. I was like, I'm never going to be who I want to be if I don't stop and straighten my life out. And so I said, you know, I just like walked into a recovery room and admitted that I had a problem and thank God I, I was able to stay sober. I'll have 15 years on October 29th of this year. No way. Congratulations. 15 years. 15 years. And it's why I have everything. I do. And that's 15 years sober from what exactly? Yeah. No drugs or alcohol. So you don't, you don't even drink like. I drink wheatgrass. Weedgrass? Wheatgrass. That's how you know she's from LA. Yeah. Yeah. We don't even know what that is over here. You're vegan too, right? Yeah. Vegan, wheatgrass. You're a completely different person than you were 15 years ago. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. Just as extreme, but in another way. Now, now I'm extreme the other way, but I don't, I don't hate it. I'm like addicted to hot yoga. Now. And, you know. You look hot. Protein smoothies. Thank you. Thank you. Stop. I'm so curious. Um, as people that haven't experienced addiction, what are misconceptions about, and like, what do people get wrong about like struggling with addiction? Well, I believe it's a disease, you know? And, um, so, you know, a lot of people who are in their addiction, they're sort of judged. I think there's a lot of stigma. There's a lot of stigma around drug addicts, right? We just kind of look down at them and, and I get it, you know, you're kind of a nightmare when you're on drugs. I certainly was. Um, but they're sick, you know? So it's viewing people as sick rather than like bad or wrong, I think. Um, so I think that's a misconception too. It's like, they think it's a choice to be an alcoholic or an addict. And yeah, sure. Picking up that first thing is a choice technically, but after you do pick up that mind altering substance, like we're bodily and mentally different from others. So most people can do it normally. And if you're an addict, you just can't. It, once you take that mind altering substance, it releases the phenomenon of craving and you can't stop. And you end up in Tijuana with an obnoxious guy, you know, that you don't even like. He was so annoying. We had nothing in common. It was terrible. What was your breaking point to, to realize that you needed to get help, that you needed to walk into that meeting? Was it an AA meeting you said? Well, actually, when I went to Tijuana with the Irish guy, I had a boyfriend at the time and i wanted to break up with that boyfriend and i didn't know how and also by the way i was like 19 and and my boyfriend was like 37 ew oh that's kind of gross right looking back i'm like what daddy issues whatever but so i i didn't know how to end it he wanted to get married and like have kids and i'm like maybe 19 or 20 i was very young and i didn't know how to get out of it and so i was like let me just do the worst thing possible so he kicks me out and breaks up with me which is crazy but i wasn't thinking yeah when i look back at that girl i'm like who is she i would never you know i i really feel like that was a whole different person i don't know if you guys identify with that looking at yourself as a teenager if you're like oh i would never do that now or maybe maybe not i i don't know if that's a common experience we definitely are completely different people than who we were totally you know yeah so um so he sure enough kicks me out right when i get back he's like you we're done you know you just went to mexico like bye with some guy so like nuts yeah oh no success it works um it worked so he kicked me out and i flew back to downers grove illinois where i'm from and i remember meeting my godmother who's like such a character she would wear these big you know mink fur coats and all this hair big hairspray and like way too much botox and just like chain smoked cigarettes but she was the only sober one in my family and we meet at this little mexican restaurant on ogden avenue um every year i'd meet her she was like my second mom yeah and so we meet at this restaurant when i get home and she looks at me she goes you look like laura she goes your hair looks like a rat's nest she goes you you're one of us i can tell you're an alcoholic you need to get sober you're gonna die and i was like okay can we just order the guac like but that was kind of my bottom you know i could not go out in the world with bad hair you know um that was it i was like rat's nest oh my god i need help i need help but yeah so i but what she said stuck you know and she was sober at that point like 20 years and she talked to me about alcoholism and how she got sober and um so when i went back to la i was staying on my and i would just walk to these recovery meetings these 12-step meetings and i would just listen and at the beginning i would go in and out i you know would go in i'd get a few weeks sober and then i'd be like i could have a glass of wine and i couldn't you know i remember i walked into a meeting one day and there was a greeter and she said hi like how are you and i said oh i just relapsed but you know i'm back and she goes you know laura i just buried a bubbly blonde 22 year old because she died in the bathtub you're not too young you're not invincible this disease will take you out and it will kill you and i was like good morning to you too yeah wow but i was so scared of that that i asked her to sponsor me and take me through the steps and she did and i did it like my life depended on it because it did and from there i i've never picked up or drank again and i you know you're not supposed to say you never will but i don't believe i ever will especially now that i'm a mother you know were you ever suicidal at that point because i i can't imagine going from like having all these desires for alcohol or cocaine or whatever it is and trying to quit must be really really hard yeah so was there any like any you know depression mixed in there as well yeah definitely because you're you're drinking and using to numb so i found like when i was in my disease i was crippled by like a thousand forms of alcohol and i was just constantly scared that i wasn't gonna get what i wanted or i was gonna lose what i had and i was scared to even make art you know at the time i was a uh barely working comedy actress so i was like doing sitcoms and commercials but you know my life was 90 auditions 95 rejection you know because you're just like going in there multiple times a week right you know with 12 pages and then they're just like thanks for coming in and you're just like but i just got two words out and they're like thanks for coming in you know and it's like that's your life but i was so nervous to make my own stuff what i really wanted to do was like direct and write and do characters and tell my own stories and i was so scared to put myself out there yeah because if i was in a bad sitcom it's not my fault it's not my sitcom yeah i'm not why it got canceled so it was very low pressure for me to be in other people's stuff yeah but i think i drank and used too because i was like the fear you you know so then you take that away the numb and then now i'm left with all these i can feel things i could feel everything fear anger you know they say in the program that i got sober in that resentment is the number one offender it's the first thing that will take you out and resentment is what re-feeling it's it's thinking of something that made you angry and re-feeling and it's not letting go not forgiving and they say resentment is the number one offender it's the first thing that will lead you back to the drink of the drug so it becomes imperative when you make the decision to stay sober to get sober for me to be able to forgive everything and everyone i have to i can't hold on to that anger because it's too risky okay if you hold on to the anger you're you're likely to need to numb right so this is like this is like a 101 yeah not holding on to resentment not holding on to anger and same with fear can you give us a like a short elevator pitch crash course into the the core things you learn in aa so yeah so people say that you know a lot of people are scared off because they think it's religious okay i grew up in an atheist i was the only atheist house on the block my dad was a staunch atheist he's actually not anymore he's now like agnostic like i he doesn't know but so when i went into the rooms and i was hearing a lot of prayer and god and you turn your life and your will over to god that freaked me out at the beginning now i do believe in a higher power and i pray and meditate and all of that but um so aa is a i would say it's a spiritual program and it's a design for living and it's not just aa there's a program for like everyone there's you know shopping anonymous there's sex and love anonymous there's um gambling there's um al-anon which is if you have a friend or a family member who suffers from addiction that affects you you know and pretty much everyone knows someone who's got it and it's hard so there's a there's a 12-step program for them but essentially it's a design for living and i would say that it teaches you how to live and function without um you know in my case drinking or using so that involves a lot of different principles like um surrendering um acceptance they say acceptance is the answer to all of our problems when when we're um distraught when we're anxious when we're depressed it's because we're not accepting our life exactly as it is at this moment right now so it's not it's not that we are like doormats and we just have to stay in an abusive thing or whatever but just like finding a way to radically accept okay this is my life right now and then a big one is like this surrendering to god and i'm prayer i don't know if you're familiar with that one but grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change the courage to change the things i can and the wisdom to know the difference that's probably like my favorite prayer and i feel like it's just everything whenever i find myself you know um in disease i'm like oh you know am i accepting the things i can't change right or do i have the courage to change the things that i can and then the wisdom to to know the difference that's so good right it's so simple but like oh so profound i think you talking about all this reminds me of that scene in finding nemo where the sharks are like fish are friends not food and then they they're having like their aa meeting but it's about not eating fish you know i think that's so i think that's so the writing there is so genius it's so good yeah it is really good that is so funny and we do all you hold hands at the end of the meeting and you say the serenity prayer but i i gotta say like you know i my third book um is a is all about the last four years of my life which which by the way and i'll say this too since we're talking about sobriety i believe sobriety is what brought my then husband and i together like we met at a party in 2011 and he was holding a bottle of water and i was like oh that's so hot that he's holding water right because that's what you're looking for at the beginning of the year girl yes so i went up to him and i was like hey like where'd you get your water that was a good look is that gg and i just like kept talking about water because i was nervous and i was like i just like love water so much like it's really important to stay hydrated your your new book is about the past four years of your life yeah which i've got to be honest with you i like kudos to you for like like still going and being here on this podcast and writing a book i mean from the outside looking in it looks like it's been a lot to say the least yeah I mean, we were married, you know, just over 10 years. Isn't that crazy? 10 years. That's a long time. Yeah. And it kind of all fell apart in 2021, late 2021. When you found out he was cheating on you, was that the first time that you'd ever been cheated on? No. He had an affair in 2014, a few years into our marriage. And you didn't know about it? I found out. You found out then? I found out then. But you forgave him? And I forgave him. But the story's crazy. You have to say, tell the story. You want me to tell you? You want that good tea? Well, I just think it's. That piping hot tea? I don't mean it's a good story because it's a terrible story. Oh, gosh. Oh, I've processed it. I'm like able to talk about it, you know? I can also recognize a good story. It feels like it's made for a movie. My life is a movie. Do you think that helps you process it too? Totally. Like you're like, if I can just view this as entertainment. Is that why you're a comedian? Because you use the comedy to kind of get through the dark stuff? Perhaps, you know? Perhaps that's part of it, you know? And I'm able to just recognize it. Of course, at the moment, it's not funny. But they say tragedy plus time equals comedy. And I buy it, you know? So I'm able to look back and laugh. Thank God, you know? I think I have a program. My program helps me process things too. So I, you know, like I still go after all these years to my weekly women's. And you just deeply share and deeply listen and you get vulnerable and you tell the truth. And they say you're as sick as your secrets. So it's important for me to share my story, you know? But so, yeah. So in 2014, we had been married a few years. And he just started acting strange, you know? We were both obviously, like I said, in recovery. But he just was acting off. And, you know, he's British. He would like come in at one in the morning, like all bloody. He's like, I fell off my bicycle. And I'm like, why were you on your bike at one in the morning? Like, just like odd behavior. And then, like, I would hear pill bottles rattling. And when I would confront him about it, it was like, oh, they're prescribed. Like, I have trouble sleeping. I'm anxious. My back hurts. It was like he always had a reason for the pills. I swear, like doctors are the number one drug dealers now. Really? Absolutely, yeah. It's not like street drugs anymore. I feel like people are just getting it from. They go doctor shopping and they just get. Oh, gosh. You can get synthetic heroin, you can get speed, you can get all the things. And then when you can't doctor shop anymore, it's become so dangerous because now everything has fentanyl in it and so people are just dropping dead. It's really devastating. Oh, gosh. I know this was supposed to be a funny podcast and I'm ruining it. No, it's okay. This is your story and you got to share it. No, yeah. So 2014 starts acting strange and one day, it's like 10:00 AM pre-children. So I'm sleeping, honey. Okay. I'm sleeping in, we have like a two-bedroom apartment in Santa Monica at the time. He's a film composer, so he's scoring this big movie in the second bedroom. He's got like drums booming, really loud music playing in his room and I hear his phone alarm go off in the kitchen. So I yell out and I'm like, Steven, you know, your phone alarm, turn it off. And he doesn't hear me because he's in the studio with the loud music. I swear it's just getting louder. Nothing lights me up like Matt's alarm. I'm going off and it won't stop. You know what I mean? Like, is it every man that just sets alarms on their phone? What the hell? I do it every day. Okay, Matt. So red flag. Well, I thought it was a sign. So, well now looking back, I think it was a sign seriously. Cause it just kept, the beeps kept getting louder and eventually can't ignore it, dude. Yes. And I just, and I tried to get him to get his phone and he wouldn't. So I ripped the covers off. I storm into the kitchen, I grab his phone and then up. Up pops a text from a contact name that's called absolutely no way. Like that's the, the name on the phone is absolutely no way. And I thought that was strange. Why would he make that the contact? I don't know. I don't know. It was weird. So I looked, I go, absolutely no way. Who's that? And I looked and it became very clear very quickly that he was in a full blown affair. Okay. Very explicit stuff. Abby told me about this. There was like. There was a mention of doing stuff on, on the kitchen table and all sorts of craziness. We don't know who's kitchen table to this day. Oh gosh. Yeah. I definitely Lysoled my kitchen table that day though. I mean, actually one clarifying question, but I don't want to know, but I do need to. Oh yeah. No, I was thinking for you to ask. Oh for me. Cause I hear like which table. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which table? Um, so yeah. So then she says the absolutely no way says, are we meeting today? And I said, as from his phone as him, I said, yeah, what's the address again? Now I said this not to go attack this woman cause it's not her, her fault. It's his, it's not, I don't condone, you know, it's like at the time I didn't know that she knew that he was married. He's who I should have been focusing the anger on. But I just wanted the truth and I knew he wasn't going to tell me the truth. He was going to deny it. I wanted answers. So I thought I want to go talk to this girl and get answers. Yeah. And that's why I did that. So I said, what's the address? She texted me the address and then I just go into his studio and I was like, Hey babe, like I'm going to go get some coffee. I'll be back. And he's like, all right. You know, I love, I love your accent. Okay. Bye. Enjoy. Yeah, I will. Um, so I like hop in the car, speed to this address in Malibu. It's a recovery meeting. It's, I see the building, it's a massive recovery meeting with like 200 people in it. I walk in and I'm like looking around for like a woman who looks guilty. You know, like how, I don't know how I'm going to find this person. Someone told me, why didn't you just call the number? Like maybe the phone would have rung, but whatever. It was 200 people. I was spinning. I was like, Oh my God. Oh my God. I'm like, what am I doing here? I eventually went home and confronted him and you know, and we separated, we separated for three months. He admitted that he was using again and um, you know, but he went and he got sober. He, you know, went to rehab detox, like flew to Chicago to make amends to my parents, which was also very awkward because my dad's weird about anything emotional. He's like, I'm so sorry. I will never hurt. Your daughter for the rest of my life. I love her dearly and I'm so, so sorry. And he's, my dad's like, have you ever used an iPad at the gym? It's really nice to just, you know, listen to some Zeppelin while you're lifting. Did he actually say that? Yeah. Yeah. That's what, that's what Steven told me. He goes, I poured my heart out to them. And then your father was speaking of iPods at the gym and how he likes to listen to Led Zeppelin while he's on the elliptical. He didn't know what to say. He didn't know how to handle it. It's very Midwest, right? We don't really talk about what's going on. Yeah. I don't know. At least that my family. Oh no. Same. Same. Same. Same. Um, yeah. So, so, so yeah. So I, and then I eventually forgave him, you know, after he got help, I could see the change. And again, because I'm a recovering addict too. I'm a recovering addict. I am. I'm a recovering addict too. I'm not perfect either. I've made mistakes. So I empathize and I'm like, we're human, you know, we're flawed. And he, he messed up and he's making amends and he's making it right. And I love him and he's my best friend. So eventually after maybe five months I took him back and we had many good years after that. Yeah. So you, I guess this is hard to maybe reflect on in hindsight, but like, do you still think he's a good guy? Yeah. I think he's a good guy. everything kind of went crazy so yeah so you know like i said many good years i don't i don't know that i would have done it differently and then it's also hard to say because we had two babies right and then it's like you know yeah i just couldn't imagine my life without my son and my daughter i think they're such a blessing what made the second time that he cheated different from the first was that just kind of one of those things where it's like okay this is the second strike i we've gotta we've gotta officially divorce at this point because i mean who if he says he's gonna stop cheating you just you just can't trust it at that point yeah i think that i actually again i'll be honest i didn't divorce him because of that second time that actually wasn't why i was willing to work through that too um i think it too it was less extreme it was it was um um um um I'm sorry because you said i'm just imagining a family in a van listening to this episode and i'm just like do i say this next part or no but yeah no um i'm sure anybody listening with their kid in the car has turned off the podcast by now so we're probably good yeah i think so i think the kids have gone to bed i think the kids are doing laundry yeah okay so so many you know many years went by like our career was amazing best friend like yeah you know love of my life and and then we had two amazing kids and then after the birth of my daughter i was experiencing some postpartum depression and i think at the time part of that depression came from the fact that him and i felt so disconnected it was like we were a thousand miles away but in the same room like we were just so and again it was just strange i didn't understand my godmother who i told you about with the fur and too much botox she was dying around that time so so i flew back to go say goodbye to her and like i got you know guacamole from our favorite mexican restaurant i fed it to her and i played her her favorite music and i made sure my hair was blown out and looked really good so she knew that i was healthy and good yeah and i thanked her for you know saving my life because she did and um and then when i flew back from saying goodbye to her i remember he picked me up in the car and there was no like hug there was no i love you it was just very cold and two we worked together so we had almost become like business partners but the marriage part was really not good and i remember sitting in the car and i was still kind of distraught and he started talking about like the algorithm or like you know a video not performing the way that we wanted it to right because we were sort of maybe addicted to our our work a little bit and and i just remember that of like wanting my husband at that time but getting like my business partner yeah and it was just odd it was just an odd cold moment that was striking for me and then just a few days later i caught him in in another lie and it was kind of a small lie i open with this in my book um this little deceit now this lie was small enough to where i again i'm flawed too i had actually done a similar thing to what i wrote about in this book so like yeah the opening line of your book is fire by the way i don't know if you how much time you spent on the first sentence but i read that first sentence and i'm like don't say it so then people i'm not gonna say the first yeah you gotta pick up the book to read the first sentence your book is good the writing's amazing do you collaborate with other writers to write something like that you do i have a co-writer on every book amazing and not only a co-writer an editor you know and then my mom like i'll send her i'll send her an essay and be like what do you think of this you know i i really do think it takes a whole team you know for for me i think if i were to write a book on my own with my adhd it would take me six years to finish so then how long does it take a co-writer is amazing because you write something and send it off and then she helps me punch it up and make it better helps me structure the stories goes oh what if we put this story over here and this story over here so you're collaborating and it's incredible that's really cool and then sometimes too i'll like voice memo stories and send them to her and she'll transcribe them and that's amazing so it just i recommend it you know if you're a busy person to to get someone to help you i mean shout out to ginger she like killed it on this you know but how did you find this person to collaborate with my um my manager is really good at finding me me writers and so yeah so it made the it made it doable for me yeah this second time that things kind of got rough in your marriage it's it i noticed a similar thing like obviously it was like relapsing and then infidelity is there some connection there between the two totally yes so i think they're all linked and again when i discovered this deceit it i didn't know at the time but he was back using again and i always say like sobriety brought us together and addiction tore us apart it tore everything apart it you know i don't want to say it destroyed our family because you know we're okay but it ended it all i mean it you saw and it was all very public yeah it was just such a mess they say that you know addictions like doing push-ups even if you're sober it's getting stronger and every relapse is worse than the last and i will say that i did not recognize who this man was this last relapse it was so terrifying um so the initial lie that i caught him and i was willing to work through it but then the behavior became so scary and so unsafe um that i made the decision to to separate um to protect myself and the kids from this person who i was struggling to recognize you know i'm like who is this person that i've known for 11 years who are you where did you go you know um and it really is a cunning baffling powerful disease and to answer your question um i think they're very linked sex addiction you know drug addiction love addiction all of it you're trying to fill the hole in the soul with external stuff we do it all the time right with i mean everyone has something maybe that they're a little dependent on and for some it makes their life fully unmanageable and just destroys everything how did you fill that hole in your soul being an addict in the past and now being 15 years sober what's what's that thing that missing link that you found in your life i think happiness and contentment is an inside job you know there was a period where i was probably addicted to the success and the money and the fame and just making people laugh even that was addicting it was so fun to like have a concept write it up edit it post it and then get 10 million views and all these people laughing and you're just like yeah this is amazing that's a drug in itself right yeah and it's like you could argue that that's an okay one it's an okay drug like making people laugh but then say a video flops yeah doesn't do well people go you suck right so then am i gonna listen to that too yeah and then right the depression seeps in and then i want to numb so it's like i don't listen to any of the crazy good or the crazy bad you just my job is to stay humble to stay i'm not better than i'm not less than you know before i got sober i was either grandiose or comatose i was either the hottest ever or i should kill myself there was no like just right sized worker among worker yeah you know and then i learned to simple things like when i wake up in the morning i try and ask when i do my prayer meditation what can i give today rather than what can i get like even on the plane right here i'm like how can i be of service to the people that i love and i'm like how can i be of service to the to them and hopefully maybe help someone through sharing my story it's not about what i can get it's about what i can give and ironically when i do that i end up getting i get fulfillment i feel full and whole because my life has purpose so i ask like how can i be a better mom a better friend a better artist i've learned that gratitude is also just like snaps to all that that's so good so seriously that was so so good something that i've learned is gratitude is the antidote to automatic negative thoughts and i heard you speaking about this and that's where you started mentioning giving and it kind of yeah just opened up so much in my brain i'm like oh my gosh of course like i mean i think i think it's great to have gratitude but then in some ways sometimes gratitude can be more self-serving and i yeah i really like everything you said about giving what what is something that you do like today but gratitude love that too yeah to just like get grateful even just like a roof over our head like how lucky are we that we have running water and you know oh 100 yeah when when you give what like what is what is the method in which you like to give is it through like a certain action like volunteering at a homeless shelter is it through giving to a certain charity what what is that to you giving yeah i mean i think it's i think it's mindset, you know, of course, there's like philanthropic causes that I'm I'm interested in, but it's also, um, just like, how can you give to, it's a, it's a service mindset. So, right. So it's like, how can I give to my kids today? Well, I can be present with them, ask them questions to get to know them more, like give them a fun experience or just make them feel loved and safe and like an extra long hug or whatever. Or, um, you know, calling a friend and asking, how are you not? Oh, and then this happened in the me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, you know, not that, but just like, how are you? Yeah. That to me is giving. It doesn't have to be this grand act. I remember early in sobriety when I started shifting my mind because the untreated addict is selfish and self-seeking to the extreme. It's just like, what can I get? How can I get happier? How could I, you know, feel better? And it's not. And then when I, so when I learned to shift my perception and to serve more and just all, all areas of my life, it's also helping other, um, addicts. So I'll go into meetings and if someone raises their hand with three days, I give them my number. I say, Hey, call me if you need, um, help. And I'm there to help you and teach you how I did it. It's like one person helping another. That's cool. So simple. Okay. So, um, let's divorce. Should we talk about maybe that could be something that was a different, that could be something that could be something. It could be something. I don't know. So you, you did a whole podcast series with your ex-husband after the divorce, correct. And, and, and shared all that to the world. Do you regret doing that? No, because I do it for the plot, honey. It's a great story. No, yeah, maybe, maybe that wasn't the best. Maybe that wasn't one of my greatest ideas. At the time we weren't actually divorced. We were separated. Yeah. The divorce took a long time. I've been divorced now for like two months. It's so, so yeah. You only had been divorced for two months. Isn't that crazy? But we were, you know, we've been separated since the kids were one and three, which I'm also grateful for too, because they're just so young. They just know that we're in different houses and they're just, it's so normal for them. Um, but yeah. So at the time I was sort of delusional and I just thought we could be like Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin. Do conscious uncoupling like that. Remember when they got divorced, you guys remember that they like, I don't, I didn't know that she got divorced to be honest. Yeah. I don't know too much about it, but I just remember like when they got divorced, the guy from Coldplay and Gwyneth Paltrow got divorced and they were like, we're doing this thing called conscious uncoupling. Like they didn't call it divorce, but conscious uncoupling where they like divorce, but they're still best friends and it's all love. And, and I was like, that's what I'm going to do. Didn't work. Now. I just thought this is my best friend. Like even though he is unsafe, like I empathize because I'm also an addict, so we're separating, but then he would tell me, okay. I didn't know he was using at the beginning. So there was that. I just thought he was unhinged, but then he would tell me, oh, I'm getting help. And then he told me he was using. Okay. So now I know, but now he's going to go get help. So in my head, I'm like, okay, he's getting help. You know, I'm never going to take him back. But we can still be friends for our kids. Like I want to be able to go to the park with him and talk about our kids and have family time. Like I wanted that. I don't want that contentious, horrible, hate each other, right? Resentment, horrible stuff. No way. I don't want that. You know, like I'm able to forgive you from a distance and like, let's be friends. So we had such an amazing collaborative thing. We were doing together for so many years. We would make comedy sketches together forever and you know, all that. And so I thought, let's make like co-parenting sketches. That's so funny. 56% of people get divorced. It's really funny. We'll do a drop-off scene where you drop off the kids and my daughter comes out and she has one shoe and I'm like, where's her shoe? And he's like, oh, I don't know. You know, whatever. And it's just a funny back and forth of like, you know, this divorced couple who's like raising kids together. It seemed like a really good idea at the time. It worked for a little bit, but then ultimately he would just lose his mind again. Like he would just go crazy. And I, so it would go, go well for a bit, or we would do like a podcast and we'd talk about the separation and things like that. And then, I don't know, I think I was enabling. I think I was codependent, very codependent. You know, I was so attached to him. Like, aren't you, don't you feel? attached to each other, you've been married for over 10 years. So now I'm like struggling to have a life without him. So even though we're not together, well, we could still do a podcast together. Right. But it could be different. Now we could be co-parents and we could talk about divorcing in a healthy way and we can have on parenting experts and, and, you know, and I was just so desperate to like maintain some sort of relationship and like, and maybe there was probably a bit of, I'm so wired in my head to just, I know what's going to hit. I know what's going to do well. And I knew there's no one else really doing this. This will do really well. What was that like to hear outside opinions and outside thoughts on the divorce in real time or on, on the separation in real time? Because I can only imagine that would be a huge weight to then have all these other opinions on what you're going through. And it probably, this is just my, my interpretation, but it probably could drive a lot of pressure. Yeah. I have a person crazy to hear all these different, you know, so many different takes on your separation. Yeah, absolutely. I think initially, because this was before we would do the co-parenting podcast, when I asked him for a separation, this was all very private, very private, right? We would not announce anything. I was traumatized from the events that occurred. It was very scary time. I asked him for the separation. I wake up in the morning to all these phone calls and texts. Are you okay? Is everything okay? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I'm like, what what's going on? Like, I haven't even told my mom. Yeah. This is so new. I look on YouTube and there's a video from him titled I separated from my wife and it was just announced to the world. So now I'm like still processing this really traumatic thing and the whole. World knows. And then he does another video. That's like, I tried to end it all. So now I'm getting all this hate. He tried to end it and you separated you monster, you witch. And they don't know what really happened. They have no idea what the kids and I went through. They don't know. Cause I'm not, I hadn't posted it and now it's all out there. And when I confronted him and I said, what are you doing? Why are you posting this? Like he goes, well, that's what we do. We post our lives to the internet. Like, that's what we do. And then I'm like, oh my God, have I created this monster? Cause like when we met, he was just this introverted composer making his music. And then I was making my comedy and then I'm like, oh, come into my video. Oh, you know, let's, let's make videos together. And then I think it was just another addiction and he would stop at nothing to get that viral video, to get that monetization, to get that validation, to fill the hole in the soul with the external stuff. I just think it was another cross addiction, as they say. From when he posted that video. Cause he wasn't thinking about the kids or I, when he did that. Yeah. How much time elapsed between that video getting posted by him, him announcing your separation without your permission to then him, you know, riling up a mob of people to call CPS on you. So that happened, the CPS happened, probably like two years later. Two years later. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I, after that, another horrific thing happened. He broke into my house and threatened me and I called the police and I was, I was going to get a restraining order. I was on my way to the courthouse. Um, and he actually spent the night in jail. Um, and I went in the morning to go get the restraining order. And as I would like, was going into park, um, in the parking structure at the courthouse, I turned, I rolled down my window and the ticket lady, I look at the ticket lady. I'm like, hi, um, which building is the one where I get a restraining order? And she's like, and she's like, where are you? And she points to the left and right as she points to the left, I hear bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. I turn and there he is. Oh my gosh. He had tracked me from our car. Cause we had Teslas and they track your location. So you can see, um, you know, where I was. So he got out of jail and Ubered to the courthouse to find me. Yeah. That is like something out of a horror film. Isn't it? Yeah. I'll probably end up making one. You should, honestly. I probably will, I'll turn your pain into art. Why not? Why not? Might as well monetize my trauma. But also, like, make a cool movie that can help people. Isn't that crazy? It's straight out of a movie. This whole book is like a Paige Turner thriller. It's so insane. But, yeah, so he bangs down, and I'm terrified now. And he's crying and begging and pleading and saying, I'll get help, and I'll never do this again, and I love you, and we're soulmates, and I'll do anything. And just, like, let me – I promise you, like, we're meant to be together. And, you know, I wasn't in my right mind, and I was just jealous because he had read my journal and read about some crushes that I had on people. We were separated at the time. But, like, I wrote about my little crushes like a little schoolgirl because I'd been married for 10 years, and then now I'm not. And so I'm like, you know, whatever, writing in my journal about it. Meanwhile, he's banging half of the greater Los Angeles area. I hadn't even held anyone else's hand at the time, but I was writing about my little crushes. And he got jealous. And he, yeah, did that. And so, ultimately, I backed out of getting the restraining order at the end. I didn't get it. It took me another three years to get one. He begged me, said he would get help, and he did for a bit. He did. It got better for a bit. Again, I wasn't going to take him back, but we were friends again. He was in therapy every day. He was going to meetings. He was sober, so he said. You know, he was coming and doing bedtimes with the kids eventually, and we were cordial. That we were like, oh, let's do a co-parenting thing. And I'm praying to God that if we're on camera and we have a specialist that's helping us how to co-parent in a healthy way, maybe he'll take it in. Maybe it'll make sense. I almost thought that publicizing it would, like, be an. Yeah. I really did. It was crazy. And codependent. And so, again, it, like, worked, and then it didn't. You know, I got a boyfriend, and that really. Made him lose his mind. How so? What did he do when he found out that you were dating again? Just the, you know, threats, just harassment, posting really horrific things about me online, saying I was a terrible mom, like, just the worst things you could think of, really, he would say about me. The worst things you could think of about my family, too. Just unforgivable stuff that ultimately. Unfortunately, I have forgift. But, yeah, really bad. And it got so bad that I just. One day, you know, the calls and the harassment started at, like, 4.35 in the morning, and I remember I was up with my son. He had woken up early that morning. And he was threatening to take the kids and all sorts of really crazy, unhinged stuff he was saying to me. And I just had it. And I thought, nope, we're done. And then he was like, I'm coming over now to take the kids. And I just said, I called the police. You can come, but you're going to get arrested. And then I went to the courthouse, and I filed a restraining order myself. And I got one. And that was one of the hardest things I had to do. Because, you know, if they passed a permanent restraining order, he wouldn't have seen me or the kids for five years. You know? And that restraining order is still in effect today? No. It's not anymore. The twists and the turns. There's a lot of twists and turns. Yeah. So, six months. The restraining order was for six months. Okay. And that is when DCF. When DCFS was called. During that time. CPS was called during that time. Yeah. Apparently, because this whole mess was public. Okay. They were able to see. The DCFS was able to see the abuse. They were able to see what was going on because he was posting it. Yeah. And then he started like a cult that referred to me as Satan. How does one start a cult? I mean, it was really just. It wasn't just his Patreon, but it was very cultish in nature. Yeah. Bizarre. Bizarre. I mean, I don't even know all of what was going on on his side of things because, again, I was just focused on keeping the kids and I safe and getting that restraining order. And when I got that, it was the first time I actually started to heal because I had this court order. I had no contact, so there was no like, oh, we can make it work. Oh, yeah, we can be friends. Oh, you know, just trying so desperately to. I couldn't do that anymore. So I started healing, but then he got worse from that restraining order. The threats online got worse. The cult, the DCFS got involved. Yeah. And then the FBI got involved. Why did the FBI get involved? I can't. You're going to have to read the book on that one. It got insane. Like, it just. Like, you think he would hit bottom and then you're like, oh, bottom has a basement. Like, it just. Wow. It was. I think he was just being so self-destructive because he had lost everything, but he couldn't stop. And my part was enabling for those, you know, two, three years. I didn't knowingly enable, but I was. I. By giving him another chance. Like, I think a lot of friends and family members of addicts, we want to help. So it's like, oh, yeah, I'll help you build your new business. And yeah, we can do a podcast together. And oh, can you do the music for this thing? Like, just trying to make sure he's okay. And like, oh, yeah, we can still all hang out as a family. And I'm just enabling his addiction. And then I'm stop preventing him from hitting bottom. And when I cut that off and got the restraining order and had no contact, I was like, oh, I'm And got a lawyer and was like, I'm done. And that was another thing. I tried mediation. He begged me, let's just mediate and do it peacefully. But then he wouldn't show up for any of the meetings. And I'm paying thousands of dollars for him to not show up because he had no intention of signing these divorce papers. Have you calculated how much you spent in court? I don't even know. Well, not court. It was mediation. So mediation is out of court. You're supposed to. The lawyer represents the two of you. But when one person isn't showing up, it's impossible. So I had to. Hit bottom. I got the restraining order. I got a lawyer. And we eventually ended up, you know, settling. We had a court date for the restraining order. And he. It was really strange, like, that time in court because I hadn't seen him for months. And it was really strange. I remember sitting there in the courtroom hallway next to my lawyer. And he comes in and he's, like, holding this. Briefcase. And he's in this suit. But he looks, like, really skinny and frail. And, like, just like a shell of himself. You know, like, no, I wasn't scared even though I had a restraining order against him. He just looked sick, you know, because he was. Yeah. And I saw him, like, fumbling with this briefcase. And, like, a flood of memories came back because I remember that briefcase from when we first met. He used to, like, carry it around, you know, like, for whatever reason. I was like, what is he. And in that briefcase, like, you just have a wallet and a phone. Like, why do you have a briefcase? But he would just, like, had this little vintage briefcase. And just this flood of memories came back. And then he looks at me and he's, like, fumbling with it. And he goes, I think my briefcase is broken. And I was like, yeah, I remember that briefcase. I said, you used to carry it around to, like, the farmer's market and I would make fun of you. Yeah. And then we started, like, laughing for a minute. And then my lawyer just, like, smacks me. She's like, what are you doing? Like, stop. Like, you have a restraining order. Yeah. You know? But, like, I don't know. In that moment, like, he wasn't my abuser. He was, like, the guy that accused me of not liking water at the party. And, like, the guy who believed in me and told me to start making videos. And the guy who I had two babies with. Like, he was that guy. He was, you know? And, um. But we go in and, like, he breaks down to the judge right away. He's like, I'm an addict. I can't stop. And I was like, oh, cool. Okay. So, I don't really have to prove anything. Like, he just sort of admitted. And, um, yeah. And so then, you know, I think that it, after that, it continued, the insanity. It was just, you know, one thing after the next. But my job was just to stay sober and not enable, you know, let him hit bottom. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, like, detach, you know, and just put one foot in front of the other. And, like, I think friends got me through it. Like, just reaching out to people. And it being so public, how did that feel? You asked me earlier. You know, it was weirdly cathartic because so many women have been here. Maybe not as extreme as mine. Mine's, like, pretty nutty. Mm-hmm. Like, domestic violence or post-separation abuse. Yeah. Infidelity, all of that. Like, I just heard stories from thousands of women. And because mine was all out there happening in real time. Yeah. I mean, I was having people making TikToks going, he fits the bill for a family annihilator, which is when you murder your entire family. And here's why. And, like, they would show me why. And I'm just, like, in bed, like, oh, is that right? You know? I know. It's not funny. - What in the modern TikTok era, that's crazy. Right. And so I was just like, my algorithm was like full of like all these people with their commentary and their theories. And then, but also I felt, I didn't feel alone. Yeah. It almost felt like safer because I had all these people behind me knowing what was happening. Yeah. Watching the abuse happen in real time. It was wild. Yeah. Wild. You've said before that because I think the quote was like, he wasn't hitting you, that it was hard to categorize this as abuse in your mind. At what point did you recognize emotional abuse as for what it was? Yeah, that's a good question. I think that for me, it took something really dramatic happening for me to have the strength to walk away. Like had something insane not happened, maybe I would have continued justifying it. Oh, it's just little. It's just little things because that's the tricky thing with abusive relationships or dysfunctional ones or trauma bonds or whatever you want to call it. It's like they're not black and white. It's not, oftentimes it's not punching in the face. It's just little subtle things, but then there's all this good. So you're like, oh, you forgive the bad because there's all this good. So that was hard for me. So it's hard to know like exactly the moment I just knew that he, there was a lot of manipulation or like there were things that he would do like stonewalling. Have you heard of that? Where it's, you know, I would like confront him about something or we would just have a disagreement about something. And then like, he would ignore me for two days, things like that, that, that felt very painful. I didn't really know that that was like an abuse tactic. So there's things like that, or just, yeah, it's like covert abuse almost, you know, it's not, it's not even like screaming in your face. That's like very obvious. Right. It's, um, more subtle than that, but, um, yeah. What would someone need to do today to earn your trust romantically? Isn't that so funny? I, well, it's funny cause I've, I've had one boyfriend since the separation and we actually broke up. We were together like for over two years. Awesome. So cool. But just, we wanted different things. Like he wanted to get married and have a baby and nothing sounds worse. So, you know, that is what it is. I, I'm, I like, I love my life today. Um, I feel very free, very just whole, you know, I think for many years I thought I needed a man to be complete. I needed someone, I couldn't do it on my own. I remember when I first separated, I was like, I'm not going to do it on my own. I'm going to do it on my own. I didn't even know how to turn on our hot tub. It was, he did it. He, it was a lot of levers, a lot of things. And, but he did it. He controlled a lot of things. And then when he left, I was like, how am I going to do this? Well, I learned how to do it all, you know, maybe not perfectly, but, um, and then like, I have great friends too, and great support group and family. I have so much love in my life that I don't feel the need to like, I need to get married again. Or I need to, I don't feel that it will probably happen. I don't like, I'll just go to a cafe and I'll get asked out, you know, or something like that. Like it just, we live in an abundant world. So I'm not really worried about finding love again. But your question was, how will I trust to trust somebody again? I know. Right. That's tricky. That's so tricky. I don't know. I don't know. And I, and I feel so bad for my then boyfriend because he did nothing and I had a raging trust, trust issues. He would like, look at, he would like sit next to a girl at a cafe and I was like, how dare you sit next to her? You know, like crazy or like convince myself that he was lying to me when he wasn't. And he would be like, do you want to just like, look at my phone? Like, I'm not lying to you, you know, but I was traumatized. And so I felt bad for him, but he was very patient with me and just understood, oh, you have trust issues. Like we'll work through that. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to trust you. I'm going to trust you. I'm going to trust that you can, whatever I can do to make you feel at ease, you know, which is really sweet. So I don't know, maybe time and therapy, or I'll just become a lesbian. That always is an option, you know? Hey, we got some questions from our audience and your audience. Just use your submitted questions that we wanted to ask you as well as we have a little game, agree to disagree if that's okay. You know, just to end on a little lighter of a note, I feel like we, we talked about this a lot in the past, but I feel like we've talked about this a lot in the past. We've talked about a lot of really deep, dark stuff today. So first question, well, this kind of goes along with what we were talking about. This is from MMDJDB123. Do you want to remarry? Right now? No. The, the thought of getting, getting the government involved in my relationship is the most unappealing thing ever. Now, a life partner down the road, maybe. But I got to say, I love not living with a man. I'm loving that. I've got some flirt, you know, little flirtations here and there. I've got a vibrator. We're good. Next question. Then we have, this is from Alan. How did you get so funny? All your videos are hilarious. You know, I have this theory that, people either like have a funny bone or they don't type thing, you know, like you're kind of born with it a little bit. Yeah. You know, I think sure my parents had some influence on me, but then why aren't my sisters comedians? So I, yeah, it's like, it's like you can either sing or you can't like, yeah, yeah. You can go take singing lessons, but you're not going to be Beyonce. If you're tone deaf, you're tone deaf. Don't leave that so much. I took singing lessons for seven years and I, do you know what I mean? I got like two notes. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's my speaking notes. That's it. Those are your two notes. Those are my two notes. I've never gotten new ones. Right. So I feel similarly to comedy. I know a lot of people disagree with me. They're like, no, there's a, no, I believe that. Right. Right. Like they're like, Oh no, it's set a punchline. You can learn it in class. I'm like, okay, to an extent, but I think it's just in you. So I feel like it's in me. And I saw that very young. I was like, Oh, I would walk into a room and people would start laughing. I'm like, cool. I didn't even do anything. So I should just do this for a living. That's fine. Then I won't even feel like I'm working. It's great. I was like, I got to find a way to make a living doing this or I'm going to be homeless. I have no other skillset. I feel like I'm not like naturally like in person funny, but I feel like if you give me enough time with editing, I can, I can edit things to be funny. And one of my favorite things is like the rule of three. Like when you just keep with, with the callback where you just keep hitting that same thing over and over. And then the third time you mention it, the time you asked me, right. I just, I love that so much. That's my problem in real life though. I will keep going. So if I'm, if we're vlogging and I, and I'm like not being funny at all, I'll just have to like stop after the third time because I've edited all the other parts out. Cause it's not funny. No, literally. And this is such a side story, but in college with our friend group, Matt if he made a joke that people laughed at, he would do it. He would keep saying it like so many times. So then we internally, would he say it like at the same sitting or like he would take that same event? No, no, no. Same sitting within the hour. Okay. Okay. Okay. Multiple times. And so that internally we decided that every time we're just going to laugh and see how many times he will do it. You guys did that to me? I've never told you this. It was Morgan's idea. Oh, that's so funny. Just kept going. This man could just keep going. And you just egged his. That's so funny. I had to come clean right now. It just felt like the time. It felt like the time. That's so funny. I will say her friend Morgan though, has laughed at me more than any other person. So I feel, I like being around her. Now he's questioning everything. Now I'm like, did she just do that just to make me feel like I was funny? She probably was. That's hilarious. Next up we have being a fellow mom of a neurodivergent child. I need all the tips for navigating school and life. That was a hard turn there. Hard turn. Well, I would just say, you know, try and get an advocate if you can. You said M-U-M. You said mom. So I'm assuming they're UK or Canada and I don't know how the systems are there, but I would just say you just got to fight for services for your kid and get as much support and help as you possibly can. You know, try and do it all on your own, just like sobriety. It's the same thing. So I just actually hired an advocate to help me get services for my son. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Therapies and respite care. So that's, you know, having someone come and relieve you for a few hours a day so you can go to the store or do what you need to do, you know, or even just be in the house so I can focus on my daughter because, you know, I feel sorry for my daughter sometimes because she'll want to play, But then I got to make sure my son's not going to the grocery grocery store. So I, you know what I mean? So it's like, I try my best, but so I would just say really seek services. And then if you can find any sort of inclusion model school, I'm obsessed with those types of schools. And I would say, if you can try that, because a lot of special needs kids are segregated their entire education career. So like probably maybe in the school you grew up in, I'm not sure, but there was like a special ed class. Right. And they're always separate. They're segregated. Well, there's a lot of studies that say if, if kids with differences or disabilities are segregated as children in school, they're way less likely to integrate into society. Way less likely because they haven't their entire childhood. So, right. So I just found a school that my kids are going to be going to where all kids learn together. So like the gifted kids, the special needs kids, the typically developing kids, whatever you want to call them, they're all in one class, but they have multiple teachers in the class, therapists, aides. So all these kids get to learn in their own way. They all have support, but my son gets to watch little social kids talk, talk, talk, and he gets to learn from them. Right now his class is 10 other spectrum kids and ain't nobody talking to each other. They're all like, you know, drawing their shapes and numbers and they're not socializing. So, right. He does so well with little chatty social kids. He learns from them. So that's, that's my, I have to imagine that's beneficial for everyone though. Even like the quote unquote typical learners, because I feel like with this kind of schooling we had growing up, like sometimes like I wanted to be friendly to the kids in the other classroom, but I didn't know exactly how to interact with them either. And I didn't know. And I think that that would happen sometimes where like it would upset one of those students because they, because they don't know how to interact with them. And I think that's really cool because they unattended, they didn't know how to navigate social interactions with them. And so I feel like I'm like all about that. I'm really into education. Like I went to school to be a teacher. She got her degree. I feel like I can't really claim it because I didn't, I didn't teach. I just was a substitute. But you went to school for it. So you have a passion for working with kids. I do. I, that's my thing. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so awesome. Yeah. I'm all about inclusion models. That's really cool. Yeah. There's not that many of them too. Which is wild when you really think about it. Cause it's actually probably the simplest format. Yeah, I would think so. And also beneficial for, you know, kids with differences or disabilities. And like you said, for typical kids to create more empathy and compassion and to just learn to accept people who may look or act differently than you. It's real life. It's real life. It's real life. It's real life. It's real life. It's real life. It's real life. It's real life. We're going to play called agree to disagree. And in this game, you just say you, if you agree or if you disagree, and I'm going to read some prompts. Those are the instructions. That's the instructions. All right. First, first up, first up, agree to disagree. Being single is underrated. Agree. Agree. Absolutely. I love it. But you know, look at what I just came out of. So I'm, I'm loving life. I mean, I think being single is so much fun and two, you can explore, you know, I can flirt with like four people if I want. And now I'm not there. There are people who have like rosters. I've never done a dating app and I'm not no shade to the roster, the people with like four partners. I just, I couldn't, it's not for me. What's the roster? Like they have like four people lined up. They're going on dates with four different people at the same time. Actually, like I feel like being intimate with multiple partners too. And I, yeah. And so it's like the bachelor, you guys, it's crazy. Cause I, I know, I know it kind of, I know I've heard they're all banging each other on the bachelor, but I don't know. I don't know. Who knows what really is going on? Certainly love Island. They're doing that. No shade. I'm not trying to slut shame or anything. I'm just saying like, I don't know. It's not, it's not for me, but I think it's, it's fun to just get to know different people and explore and be, be flirtatious and just be free. Like that's really fun. It's fun. And also I like being single because I, it keeps me focused on the things that, that really matter, which are my kids and my friends and my art. And like, that's really cool right now in my life. Maybe when I'm a little older, I'll, I'll want something more serious, but I love being single. And I think it's underrated for sure. Agree to disagree. A sense of humor is sexier than a six pack. Ooh, absolutely agree with that. Yeah. I find funny. So attractive. What about you guys? You know, I'm so removed from that because we just, we were our first, we were the first love interest ever. Like I never ever thought about, and we just not to that, but when he makes you laugh, does that turn you on? I think I'm more the one that makes him laugh. She is way funnier than me. Okay. And do you find that attractive? Uh, like, like in, like in a, I just, as friends, I just think you're fun to be around. Like, I just like, I feel like humor is amazing for a friendship. Yeah. But I think the key, like you guys nailed it. Being, marrying your best friend is key. Like that's what I was even saying with my, with my ex-husband. Like we laughed all day. I remember calling my mom early on. I was like, he's great. I met this guy and he's great, but I think he's funnier than me, you know? And I was like, kind of mad about it, but also that was so, I find it so attractive. I really value that though. Like if you don't get my humor, if we can't laugh together, no, thank you. Oh my God. So after my, when I was separated, I met another guy at a cafe. I don't know what it is. I think it's cause I'm not on the apps and just whatever. I was maybe giving off that energy or something. This cute guy asked me out and I was like, why not? Right. Why not? So I'm so nervous. Cause it's my first date in fricking 10 years. I don't know what I'm doing, but we sit down, we go to lunch together and he was just telling the worst jokes the whole time, girl. The amount of times he like quoted Borat and like Anchorman. Do you even know what those are? You guys too young? They are so old, these movies. Like I don't even know, but he was just like, it was so bad, so cheesy. And he thought he was so funny and he really was not. And it was just the whole lunch was me going. Yeah, I was making that face the whole time, girl. I was like, so what, so then what'd your opinion be? But he was hot though. Okay. He was hot, but I didn't want to progress. Okay. Okay. Did. Okay. I'm not going to ask that. Funny is more important than a six pack. That's good to know. That's good. I would agree with that. Right. It just is for me. Agree to disagree. You should never go back to an ex. Three, two, one. Okay. No ex-husband. I'm not. And next boyfriend, I'm not. Oh God. No, you shouldn't. Agree. You shouldn't. Why did you hesitate there? Because life is so complex. And I think too, and this book, like it's actually annoying that I, you'll see me sort of going back over and over. And as a reader, you're like, oh, come on, what are you doing? You know? But when you're in it, it's so hard. People rarely quit the first time, right? They just, they keep going back. So I would say, I would say agree. You should, you should probably never go back to an ex. You know, it's, it's not black and white. I'm sure there's instances where like my friend who actually lives in Phoenix and I feel like such an a**hole for not calling her today. I should call her after this. But she married her high school sweetheart or maybe college. And she moved to LA after college and they were long distance. And I was like, girl, that's never going to work. And she was like, yes, it is. Like we're just long distance right now. And I was wrong. And he moved out to LA and they got married and then they moved here and they have like two kids and yeah, but they had broken up for that time where, um, she was in LA and he was in Chicago or something. There was like a moment where they broke up or something like that, but they got back together. And so she took back the ex and they're married and happy with kids. So it's not black and white, I guess, but as a rule, why did you break up in the first place? Right. So I would say maybe move, move on. Right. You shouldn't, that was a really long answer. I could have just said, agree. You have really good answers. I like your answers. Okay. Agree to disagree. Money can buy happiness. Disagree. Disagree. If the way you said that, it felt like you thought you should say disagree, but you wanted to say agree. Well, happiness is fleeting. So I think we're not meant to be happy all the time. It's fleeting. It's that's deep. That's good. Right. Right. And so, okay. It could buy happiness for 20 minutes. You buy that cute new skirt or thank you. Thank you. You know, and you get that little hit that dopamine or whatever it is, you get the car, you get the, whatever it is, the check. Um, but that fades, it's not stable. So it could buy happiness for 20 minutes or a day or two, but then it doesn't last. Happiness is an insight. Job too. It's an inside job. I think also there's a, there's a documentary, and I'll shut up, called Happy, where they study happiness. And they found that they like went all over the world to study like the happiest people and like what they're doing. And they had said in the study, if you go from unhoused to housed, if you go from on the street to having food, shelter, and your basic needs, your happiness level raises significantly. But after that, after you have all your basic needs met, and then you get more and more, your happiness level just goes up just a tiny bit. Isn't that interesting? It is really interesting. Like it doesn't actually go up that much. So I would argue enough money to be stable can buy you happiness. But after that, not really. Yeah. That's true. This next one, agree to disagree. Closure is a myth. Closure is a myth? I'm thinking that refers to relationships. Obviously. Yeah. Like how would you guys define closure? An action concluding, shutting down, or the satisfying sense of finale. Ooh, the satisfying sense of finale. I think that's, I agree that that's possible. So then you disagree that it's a myth. I disagree. Agree that it's a myth. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. This one's a little easier. Agree to disagree. Everyone should try a standup comedy at least once. Ooh. Disagree. Why would you put yourself through that if you don't have to? I'm a comedian and I have to force myself to do it. That seems terrifying to be honest. I feel like comedy, especially standup, is like one of the most like highly respected, most acclaimed arts where you're just like, that is tricky. And it's also just, I imagine it has to take so much guts to just get up there and do that. Oh yeah. The first time I ever did it, I bombed so hard. I went to the comedy store in LA and I bombed, it was crickets. And then the MC got on after and was like, look, she's a 10, comedy, she's a two. Yeah. I've heard that before about, they're called comics. They're called comics, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Like they're just brutally honest. Yeah. So if you, if you don't do a good job, you'll get made fun of for sure. Yeah. At least they didn't go, look, she's a two, comedy, she's a two. They could have said that. You're like, it's kind of a comedy. At least I was kind of hot. Do you think comedy is harder for women? Do you think the standard's different? I do. Yeah. That's one of the reasons I stopped doing standup. It was like, I was just surrounded by, no offense, but men. Like it was. It was like a man's world really. You know, even my dad was like, why are you doing that to your face? Stop making funny faces. Like you're pretty, do drama. Like even my dad was like, what are you doing? You know, like, didn't like that I was a clown. And so I had to like rebel and because I wanted to do comedy, but he, he even in his mind, no, guys are supposed to be funny. Women are supposed to be pretty and a little more subdued. Right. And we're trained like that. So I had to break that. It's definitely harder for women. Let's do this one next then. It says agree to disagree. Women are judged more harshly online than men. This is the online spin, not necessarily the comedy world. I would agree. I would agree. Would you? I would say in general, I agree, but in certain niches, it is reversed. This one's interesting. Agree to disagree. Success is lonely. Hmm. Success is lonely. Yeah. I would say like, it's weird because, and I'm sure you guys experienced this too. You'll like be at a store or something and someone comes up and they're like, feel like they know your whole life because they do. And they feel like they're your best friend, but you don't really know them. So it's just like one sided thing. And then there's just like a picture and like, and then they go away and you're just like, I don't know. There is something, I guess, lonely about that, you know? And yeah, being like known, I guess, is weirdly lonely, even though you have millions of people that are like following your, your life. It can be, but that's maybe when I'm PMSing. I mean, I don't feel alone in my life. Like I have good, you know, good friends and stuff. I don't know. I don't know. What do you think? You answer it. Is success lonely? I don't feel it's actually stressful. That's what it is. It's stress. It's not really stressful because you got to keep it all going. Abby by like dictionary definition isn't influencer, but she's like, I'm not an influencer. I'm a mom. I, I, I have my girlies and we, you know, go take our kids to the splash pad. And so like, I guess I'm saying success can feel lonely. Okay. I said, you feel like, yeah, I said, I'm not an influencer. I'm a mom. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You feel like it can feel lonely. Yeah. Yeah. And then you don't, you don't want to see the numbers go down. So then you, and that can feel like, I don't know that that's, that sucks. And then you're like, what? It's like, why am I even freaking doing this? You know, it is, it's, it's a, yeah, it's why I think we should have, especially if you're in this line of work, a really strong, some sort of like spiritual foundation, something, just something that grounds you. Yeah. And gets you humble and knowing that your self-worth is not contingent on how successful you are. Oh my God. Like if a video flops and people are like flop era, you're in your flop era. It's like flop era. Like I'm a human and this video didn't hit 4 million. So like, you know what I mean? Oh, she's over. She's done. It's like, you're a huge, we're humans. No, we're not done. This is just like one stupid part. Like, I like your mindset of just like, no, I'm just, I'm a mom and I am a friend. And you know, your self-worth is not contingent on your success. And that's amazing. So, you know, that's something that I, I, I remind myself of too. You know, right. This is just whatever. It doesn't even matter. None of this matters. This podcast doesn't matter. If your book flops, it doesn't matter. Thanks for giving us an hour and a half. If my book flops, it actually doesn't matter. I was thinking about that. I'm like, if no one buys it, like, that's okay. My kids are healthy. Like, you know what I mean? I hope it can help people and reach people, but it's going to be what it's going to be. I don't know. That's what I think. Your podcast matters. Thank you. It does matter. And your book matters. But it's not the most important thing. Totally. Right. It's like, it's awesome. And it probably, people love it and they love listening to you guys and it's awesome, but it's like, whatever. If it stops, like, you'll be okay. Yeah. If I stop writing books, it's okay. Yeah. You know, I don't know. This is a fun one to conclude this segment. Okay. Agree to disagree. You could tell a lot about someone by what makes them laugh. Oh, agree. Absolutely. I mean, I wouldn't say I had a wildly dysfunctional childhood. I was a pretty happy kid, but I got into a lot of trouble and, you know, there was some craziness and I have a dark sense of humor. And so immediately when someone else has like kind of a morbid sense of humor, I immediately connect to them and like, you know, and I like, and I know it's like, I have a theory. If you have crooked teeth, you grow up without money. So whenever I, whenever I meet people with crooked teeth like mine, I'm like, aha, like I, we just vibe on this like crooked tooth level. Yeah. Cause I know you couldn't afford braces and me neither. Me neither. And so like, I just, and it's the same thing with humor. Like what they laugh at just tells you a lot about what someone's been through. Or like in my recovery meetings, we make the most morbid jokes. Like someone will just be like, yeah, I tried but the rope broke and everyone's like, you know, it's like, oh my God, this is so dark. But you know, whatever they overcame and you're able to laugh about it. So I think you can gauge a lot about someone from their humor, what they find funny. Yeah. Well, Laura, thank you so much for coming on the show. Seriously. The book comes out July 14th, correct? Yeah. So everybody go check it out. We'll put a link in the description so you guys can, you know, go buy it, go support Laura. Where's the best place for people to connect with you? Yeah. So anywhere you, you have social media, I'm unfortunately there, I'm just there. So, you know, if TikTok is your thing or YouTube or Facebook or Instagram or Patreon, it's just my name, Laura Clary, and you can find me there. Amazing. I just want to say I gained so much from this conversation. Like I think that like not only are you beautiful and hilarious, but you have so much depth to you and so much wisdom that it's just, it's great listening to you speak. And you can just tell that you have, you're so resilient and you've done so, so much work on yourself to get to where you are today. And I've like read so many like excerpts from this that now I'm like so excited to fully like dive in and read the whole thing. Thank you so much. That means a lot. You guys are amazing. And I wanted to not like you. I was like, oh, married couple. Oh God. why did i feel insecure i was like i'm just kidding but i was like dang we actually are married and no but love each other no you are and you know what it's it's amazing to see and you've restored my faith in love seeing you two together really has it's it's awesome to see you can just tell that you're the real one more thing the way someone talks to kids for me like you can just tell them you met one of our sons before this and i was like she's she's gold immediately yeah i i take i'm one of those people that i i i trust my instinct too much but i was like she has a good instinct i get like a first impression and i'm like she's great she's amazing she's amazing and then sometimes you're like no like i trust it to a point where it's like i'm like well no that that's not really them see they i know that oh i see you're too yeah okay we're we're actually similar like yeah like i i got the gauge though so yeah yeah anyway i just think you're awesome in the real deal thank you thank you everyone check out her book check out all her pages and thanks for talking with us thank you so much for having me yes it's fun yeah thank you for listening what doesn't kill you makes you hotter check it out all right we'll see you in the next episode