Closets & Cellars: The Art of Quiet and Loud Luxury in Fashion and Wine

[MUSIC] Well, hello and welcome to the Wine Access Unfiltered podcast. One of the hardest concepts to explain in the wine world is why certain bottles command the price tags that they do and not just talking about justifying the spend or deciding what's quote unquote worth it. Because to a degree, that's always going to be kind of subjective, shaped by our experiences, our wallets, our expectations, our egos. What I am talking about is helping people understand where quality actually lives in wine, how to recognize it, how to shop for it, and how to know when you're paying for craftsmanship versus marketing. And that's getting harder and harder to do because as much as we love to romanticize wine, the reality is that wine is at its core a marketed commodity, just like anything else. There are thousands of options on the shelf, each promising something special. Yet very little transparency about what actually makes one bottle better or more luxurious than another. And just like in fashion, the labels, the trends and storytelling all shape our perception around value. Sometimes what we're drawn to is about taste. Sometimes it's about identity and sometimes it is just about the logo, which brings us to today's conversation. Because as much as this podcast is about wine, it's also about how we consume luxury and how our choices, whether it's in our closets or our sellers reflect who we are and what we value. I guess today understands that better than almost anyone else. I had the great privilege of having the algorithm stout me in my tracks when I saw his content. He is a creator and fashion voice helping millennia women like myself define their personal style through the lens of quiet and loud luxury that balance between subtle sophistication and statement making confidence with 400,000 followers on Instagram. He's built a space that's about empowerment as much as it is about aesthetics where luxury isn't about labels but about intention, about discernment and knowing what feels like you. And that's where the parallels to wine get really fascinating because some bottles like handbags screen status while others kind of like the one we're drinking today whisper is. So please welcome to the show. Wale, Sonny of style by Wale. Welcome. Thank you for welcoming. That was the greatest introduction I have ever heard. Oh my goodness. So I'm so glad you enjoyed it. Because I you know, this is not our normal episode of that, you know, back in the day when we first started this episode, this podcast, we had lots of people from all walks of life, all different sectors. And so, you know, we we love talking to people who are not in the wine industry like yourself. But I had a lot of fun trying to find the parallels between my world and your world of which there are so many. I don't know if you knew that prior to this. So many. This is why when you did that introduction, I was like, this is going to be a fantastic podcast because she sees the glass door between both. Yeah. And you have been in fashion for how long now? For a decade. A decade. Got your start in Chicago, where you are now? In Chicago. Yeah. West suburbs, West suburbs of Shamburg, if you're familiar with that. Okay. And I I saw in my digging that you are a former Nordstrom employee. Yeah. That we got your start. That's where the start was. Actually, no, think that back Macy's was in the same all. Oh. Yeah. So we love Macy's. Yeah. Macy's holds is down. Holds is down. And so today your your job is fully in creating content. And then also are do you do like personal consulting for women like myself? I do. I do. But it's mostly people that I had I've been friends with over the years and I kind of just kind of point them in right direction considering I have half of this stuff comes from me anyway. So I'm like, Hey, I know you have this jacket in there. You should just put it with these shoes. It's going to work well. Oh, I desperately need your assistance. I feel like I have a closet full of things where I'm just like, I know it should work. Like in theory, this has a place based on, you know, the previous things that I've done. But I will tell you what I've done as of late that's been sort of a game changer. Is I when I travel, I take pictures of all of my outfit like I plan my outfits ahead of time and I take pictures of them. And then I know exactly what I'm going to wear ahead of time. And I feel like I just like need that on repeat for myself like in life. Like I just I need like the share closet situation from Clueless. 100% and yeah, a really interesting point to what you're even saying. So many ideas work well in the brain until they're on your body. And you're like, that should have came out way better than it did fail. Yeah. So many times. Well, I'm very excited to talk about all things. Style with you. I am not a I love fashion. I am not even like a 1,000th of a percentage point close to as knowledgeable about fashion as you are. But I do love a bulk curated closet. But when I was watching your content, I think kind of what stopped me is a lot of your content is pointing out some of these quiet luxury pieces that you know, speak volumes about you. And so I'm watching and I'm like expecting to know some of the brands and most of them I'd never heard of like the Clementine bag by the horse. For example, I'd never seen before it's beautiful. I won't mind now. And that's kind of where like something clicked for me and maybe you want to reach out to you because as much as you know, I'm someone who's deep in the one world, I see this all the time where the same brands get pushed forward. But the real gems kind of hide out for the true enthusiast in the back. So how do you how does one find these brands like the horse in fashion? Well, let's say you find them by figuring out the brands that you don't like. I think a lot of the times we spend so much time investing into finding things that we enjoy where if we just remove the spaces for things that we don't enjoy, things that we do like will automatically find their way the slot into our lives, which is why closet refresh is so important because if you announce to yourself that you don't like what this does for your wardrobe or what this feels like for you, that gives you an opportunity for more love because energy is already finite. You're giving it to something. Why not giving it to things that you love versus things that you don't really work well for you? Do you feel like that announcement is one of the harder things for people to acknowledge? Like I loved your quote about the Goyard bag and the fact that it's like the beef tartare of the luxury world, but like I feel like coming to terms with the fact that you don't like something as hard, especially when you've made an investment in something, right? Oh, 100%. But why I think that's so important and what you even annotated earlier is that you may say, I think that you know so much more about fashion than I do. The interesting thing is as someone who works in that space, you're actually the average of the customer. Most people don't need to know who Alessandra McKellius and they probably don't really care too. And that's okay, but they know what they do like and what they don't like. That's more important than following designers or following brands that could potentially sell you something in the future. That's such an interesting point and I think it's one that I've often talked about with Ryan is like I, as you just said, like I need to know the nitty gritty details. Like I'm a psalm. I work in the wine industry. Like I need to know these names. I need to know, you know, the specifics of all types of vineyards. But as a fashion consumer, like those things are not as important. So like in the wine world, as a consumer, excuse me, in the fashion world as a consumer, like what things are important and what are the things that you should be looking for? I would say the first thing you should be looking for is are you already naturally expressing yourself? Because I think a really big thing is oftentimes when we don't look inward, we look outward for our clothes to represent who we are as an individual. When that secondary to are you representing yourself in your everyday life with your home, with your kids, with your job. And then when you do that, I guarantee you the clothes will naturally represent that who you are as an individual. But how do you do that? Like just, how do you recommend doing that? Like do you sit down and you know write a list of like all the qualities that you want to be? Do you like create a Pinterest board? Like what do you see working and trying to find out who you are inside before you find the representation outside? Yeah, I would say the good thing first is to, which is hard for us to do as individuals to recognize why you were drawn to this in the first place, right? Which I think with a lot of the content that I produce and you've probably seen, it's not necessarily your everyday electric fashion content from someone that, you know, because they could tell you, hey, buy this in lean bag, it's $4,000, it's going to change your life. You've lived long enough to know that's probably not going to happen when you buy the bag. Yeah, right. No, I have a, I have a, I have a lean bag that I wanted desperately at the age of 29 that is sitting up in my closet right now, literally collecting dust. And you're not alone. Like Michael Jackson said, you really are. And understanding that is, it probably helps you with the wine world too. So it's like, hey, listen, I wonder amazing experience with wine. And you're like, listen, you don't have to go and get the $400 bottle. You may want to start with some options that you know that's great that will satisfy you at 100 or 120, you know? Yeah, it's so high. I think price is so hard, especially in wine and in fashion because it is such a wide array, right? Like, you can get a t-shirt for $5 at Walmart and you can also get a t-shirt for $500 at Saxo Avenue. They're both going to do the same thing at the end of the day. They're going to close your body, but how they feel, what they say about you, all the things that that purchase represents, that's a, that's a, those are two very different things that I think I've had a hard time in the wine world helping people to understand like. Is there going to be a taste difference between a $15 bottle and a $500 one? Absolutely. But it's so much more than that. So how do you feel like you can justify some of the more expensive purchases over the less expensive ones? Well, all purchases are justifiable based upon your perspective. So something that I think is really fun when it happens is sometimes someone will come across my videos and they're like in their early 20s, right? And I can just feel it. I can just, I don't even have to go on your profile. I can just see by the way you're communicating the emojis, anything, right? So the moment they'll ask me a question, I know where their intention of what the question is going towards. So for example, hey, like I'm looking for like a really great bag so I can go out with my friends tonight and I'm like, listen, you've come to the wrong person, but I know the right answer. Okay. And the right answer is that you're going to need a push at and not that I would ever recommend it's my customers, but because I know you're just looking for a bag that's going to assume the status that you would love to have within the future. And this bag is going to do that for you. So I mean, you're taking a consideration the entire equation, right? Like you're, you're a summary, right? Like you're, like you're assessing the individual or you're assessing their situation, you're assessing what they want out of the bag, not necessarily the raw materials that are making the bag. Correct. Because from your perspective, you want to make a statement. But for my customers that have been old enough to have went through the rodeo that you're probably going to go through in 20 years, they, I know what they're looking for as well. I feel like I'm interested in making a different statement. It's not that I'm interested in not making a statement. It's like, I want the statement to be less obvious if that makes sense. No, it doesn't. You know what I mean? Like, and you, and you want to be like, how do I put this? So you may or may, may not agree with the purchases as you and I made last year, which was I went, I was in London. And I'm, and you can tell me I, you can tell me if it was dumb. I went to, I was in London. I was in May, fair and I went to the row. And I was very excited because I had never been to a row store. And like, you know, it's, it's got, it's got a lot of like more and pop and circumcise. Like you can't take photos in the law, right? Like they both yell at you. Tell you to put your phone away. You can't, however, FaceTime your husband to find out if it's a good purchase decision that they did let me do. Anyway, to digress. I go into the row, I'm, you know, nosing around and I find this bag. And I've been looking for like a really beautiful leather carry-all tote. I've had, forgive me. I've had a Louis Vuitton never fall since I was 25 years old. And that thing has been a workhorse in my life. It has been beat to shit. And it does not need to live in my shoulder any longer. And so this was sort of a replacement for that. And so I bought it. And to me, you know, the row was sort of this symbol of quiet luxury to the degree that like a row bag can be. And that like, it wasn't loud. It didn't have a big logo. But it also like, I got on the plane the other day. And this woman who was, who was sitting like two doors down was like, oh, like beautiful row bag. And she was dressed beautifully and like all the stealth wealth that one could love. And I was like, oh, I feel accepted and I feel embraced by this community. And so it was like a different, it was a different acceptance from a different, I don't, I don't know what I'm trying to say here. But like, I didn't want that. I'm not looking for loud luxury anymore. I'm looking for quiet luxury, but I'm also looking for that luxury to be recognized amongst, I guess, a group of people that I shouldn't care to impress. No. And that's, and I love that you said that because that even circles back to my original point is I know she wanted to be recognized by people within that circle. And that's why I'm not looking for that kind of thing. But I'm not looking for that kind of thing. I'm not looking for that kind of thing. It's always kind of wild to me that more people don't pay attention to what their wine says about them versus what it actually tastes like. It's just a tasty delicious. And by the way, we are far too deep into this podcast for me and to not be drinking. So grab your wine. I'm curious to see you. Cheers. I should have asked, do you, are you a wine drinker in your regular everyday life when you're not shopping for great bags? I'm so, I love that you ask that question because I'm not. And I learned that while trying to get ready for this podcast, so I opened the box just today, I opened the box of the wine. And I see it, it comes with two bottles. I'm like, okay, great. I know someone in this house has a wine bottle opener. So I'm going through every cabinet, have no wine bottle opener in our entire house. So I go outside and I live right next to a very popular French restaurant. It's like a cult classic in Chicago. So I'm like, they're definitely going to have a bottle wine opener. So I go there. I'm walking around with this bottle of wine to this restaurant. And I walk in, everyone's just like, this is not BYUB. What does this guy do in here? So I go to the front, I'm like, hey, listen, I just get this bottle of wine open. I have this podcast that I really love to film. And this guy goes, what do you know about this wine? And I'm like, I really don't know anything. If you have anything you want to tell me, please tell me, let me know. He has this wine tattoo on his forearm. His parents. Stop it. His parents grew up in the town where this wine was cultivated. Which just lets you know this podcast was meant to be recorded. Clearly. He shows me the full on tattoos. Like, dude, my parents grew up here. I know I could break down everything about this wine for you. And I'm looking at him, like how you look at me, about your fashion. I'm looking at him. Like, I have literally zero idea what you're talking about. But this is amazing. He's like, yeah, if you ever want any recommendations of what wines would work well with this, let me know. Look at that wine bringing people together that, you know, you never would have met your downstairs French neighbor at the restaurant without this wine, which is great. And also not like the serendipity the kids met of all this is just insane to me. I wish I take C. Yeah, I'm probably going to go back and like, hey, can I take a picture of your form? Just like I just said it to my friends. So he, it was crazy. This is so wild. I love this. All right. Well, you know, for those who are not watching this, the wine and cheers to that. Seriously, that is so, that is so crazy. I love that. And hopefully you like it. This is a bogeylae. And so it's a crew bogeylae. The producer that we're drinking is called Chacholiches. It is from, so I'll kind of point a few things out on this label here. So you got Chacholiches, which is the producer, right? It's who made the wine. So, you know, in fashion, speak, this would be the house, right? This would be, you know, your Gucci, the row, whatever, right? Under here, you have flurry. Now, because we're in Europe, this is where things get a little bit confusing because they put a lot of value on the location of where their grapes are grown. And so wines are really labeled more so by their region than they are by, you know, the grape. So it's not going to say anywhere in here. I don't think. Well, it doesn't the very back. Normally, it doesn't say what the grape is. It's never going to tell you exactly, specifically what the raw material is. But we are talking about a wine from bogeylae, which is Southern Southern Burgundy. This is a region that I'll give you a little, there was so I'm going to give you a lot of history on this because I think what I would like you to do is find me as some sort of fashion equivalent. Ooh, okay. Okay. So, this is what's called a "crube bogeylae." And bogeylae is this region in France that produces the gamme grape. Now, gamme is sort of what some would call an inferior grape to something like peanut orr, right, which is produced in Burgundy. Burgundy is a region that produces some of the most expensive wines in the world. Bogeylae is a place that because they are producing the gamme grape and not really the peanut orr grape, it's sort of become this value-centric region. And for a long time, it was like extremely value-centric. Like to the point where like you couldn't sell these wines for more than five year old, right? And about 20 years ago, some of the producers there decided that they felt like they could actually make a really quality wine from the gamme grape. And the way that they were going to do that is they were going to start making these wines from specific places, crews within Bogeylae. And so each crew has a name. There's 10 of them. The one in this case is called Flurry. That's what's on the front of the label here. It's a 100% gamme. And it's not necessarily made to age. It's not a wine that you're going to have forever and ever and ever. But it is a wine that is meant to drink and be consumable and and this is the most important thing. It's a wine that because it is so approachable and it's youth that has a little bit of pedigree associated with it that has some great viticulture and why making behind it. It's a wine that wine connoisseurs love because it's this like $30 bottle that they can have either like before in between on a Tuesday night. That's not $300-400 and breaking the bank. So, Crubojele has sort of become the favorite for some of these like me, like your friend, out at the French bistro because it is such an accessible wine, because it is so delicious and yet even though it's inexpensive, it's still very much a wine that's embraced by the wine and some community. So, it's a great sort of like hack wine, so to speak, for someone that's like, I'm, you know, I don't have a lot of money to spend on wine, but I'm going to a wine party and going to my boss's house and going to a wine collector's house. What wine can I bring that's not going to embarrass me? That's also going to be something that they want to drink. It's Crubojele all day. This is something that everyone sort of gets behind because it's delicious. Also, a great bistro wine because it's great with chicken. So, I'm glad they're having a chicken. Yeah, I had a fried chicken which definitely did not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely wasn't what in my bingo cards, but basically. Not in your bingo card today. You know what the best, the actual best fried chicken pairing is this is going to blow your mind. Champagne. Champagne, champagne, and fried chicken. Yeah, and you know what? Champagne doesn't need, it doesn't need a wine opener, just need to hang. That could have helped me a couple of hours ago. Having heard all of that, all of the backstory behind Crubojele, any fashion equivalents that this might. A fashion equivalent would be a studio niggleson. Which is like a real small house. They make the row-ass clothes at a medium where it's not necessarily H&M quality that you're known for, but it's a step up a little bit of a pricey side. But the clothes are fantastically cut at a price point that would make you want to fill your entire wardrobe with. So they make elevated simplistic basics with really great tones that make it easy to pair with other wild things your wardrobe. So they make great navies, great olives, great browns, real trustworthy for people that work in fashion to get that the row look that they don't have to spend the row dollar to get. And brands that I can google and shop from or is this in the mall? Oh yes. Oh it's just a DTC brand. They may have a store probably like LA in New York. Studio Niggleson is the brand. This is not a. Okay, okay. That's okay. So that's where I was like studio niggleson like a like you pick with us term for like a studio niggleson is the brand. Is it? Yes. Okay. Are there other brands like studio niggleson then do that or is that because I've never heard of this. Yeah, there's tons of them. I mean you could go the elevated H&M's costs as a brand AR, AET. I don't know if you've heard of that brand AR. I don't know if I'm saying you're right or you could even go Eileen Fisher is always a great one. Oh yeah. Which is crazy. There's so many brands that I think that do that look that I don't think that are necessarily recognized to that pedigree. Yeah. Those are some brands that I really enjoy that remind me of this wine here at a reasonable price. I want to talk a little bit about this idea between quiet luxury and loud luxury. Like what is quiet luxury to you? What is loud luxury? So I would say when many people ask what quiet luxury is they're looking for a product that is willing to withstand the quality that they're willing to invest the pay for. And that can mean different things for everyone but I think loud luxury for many people is products that don't live up to the investment that they're making in the product. So oftentimes you think of loud luxury as logo centric which are just because it falls under that trait many times. This means that trait is the definition of what it is. So I think logo mania is one of those things and I think a lot of people now if they're willing to pay for something they have to believe the story of what they're buying. And I think that's what loud luxury is. You don't believe in the story of what you're buying. For instance, quiet luxury is you are invested in what the story portrays as to who you are as an individual. Do you think that loud luxury has a correlation with quality? Like the louder the luxury the less quality the good likely is. Sometimes yes, but loud luxury is you because for example to anyone who works in fashion the row is loud luxury. The lady who saw your bag knew that was the row. There was no second person saying it. Right. Right. So says the row says so to quantify loud luxury as just logo centric or just that would be denying other people's vision of what loud luxury is. Okay. So quiet luxury is anything that allows you to believe the story that what you're investing in. Do you feel like there has to be transparency for something to be quiet luxury? Like do they have to have you know information on where the raw materials are coming from, where their factories are, the store like does there have to be story and all of that for it to be to fall under what you would deem the quiet luxury? Mental? No. And reason I say that is many times we tell the story to ourselves and just hope their story matches the story we want to feel. For example, or Piana had this whole big thing where they were having this worker's rights to say released right dilemma. The people by Laura Piana probably aren't concerned about workers rights. Right. Not to say that that's a good or bad thing. That's another conversation for another day. But that's not part of the story of why they tell themselves why they buy Laura Piana. So to the brand that doesn't affect whether or not it's quiet luxury to the audience that purchases it in the first place. This is where it's so hard to figure out with wine because the idea like this idea of quiet luxury versus loud luxury in the wine world. There's a lot of loud luxury right. There's a lot of brands that you know I would consider like vanity labels right. It's people that come in that you know slap their name on something, they hire the same whi maker, they use the backstopper to go on grapes which is like a you know very premier vineyard in Appa Valley. And you know they say this is $500 it's allocated it's hard to get in reality it's not. And that to me is like very loud luxury. And then you have this other sort of category of loud luxury where you know you would maybe throw like opus one or like dumb pairing on or like crystal champagne. Like that is a form of loud luxury that also has quality behind it. And like this is where I struggle I think in the fashion world because I want to believe that the row is quiet luxury but it's not. And I want to believe it's quite luxury because to me it feels luxurious and it feels like the raw materials are of a certain quality versus like if I go in by a canvas fendi bag like that doesn't feel luxurious it feels like loud luxury. And so that's sort of where I have this like interesting disconnect between the wine and the fashion world and sort of discerning between the two. And it doesn't necessarily like one doesn't negate the other but they it does say something about you. And I think that's where in the wine world you know I have to I have to sort of help people find their path because there's nothing wrong with a vanity label there's nothing wrong with wanting to support you know someone whose dream it was to buy these grapes and hire the right people and start their own thing. But it you know it does it is different than supporting or drinking the wine that has been around for for generations that you know that hires great people because you know they fit the ethos of that particular brand. So I think that's where I struggle with with wine and fashion. And so I wonder you know where some of the period like are there fashion brands that maybe are loud luxury that still have you know quality behind it like a domperion or like a crew or like an opus. Well there's tons of brands that I think that fall into that space right like there's a saline really stand by their quality you have ready to wear by her mask. I mean even though once again I consider that loud luxury people consider like I've never seen a Birken I was like well I think that might not be a Birken like I think that's a Birken. I would be full it's also the point of a Birken right exactly yeah but I think a real great parallel and the word I was looking for is causation not correlation. Yeah yeah yeah yeah causation not correlation. So perfect examples for you you live in Philly Philly right. He says with a smirk we're a sports city in the world. Hey you know if you were to take your house and move it into the Hamptons with the value of it increase or decrease. They would increase I would hope. It would increase but I'd but none of that increase is a representation of the quality of your house. It's just the interitorial that it's occupying space in. So with a lot of quadruverses loud luxury price isn't the differentiator between whether whether or not it's quite allowed. And I think that's something that's very important to signify to people to understand the difference between two. Yeah, that's so true. I've never used that example, but it's so fitting and wine because, I mean, obviously, the reason that this wine that we're drinking especially is as cheap as it is, has really everything to do with where it's grown, right? The real estate here is so much cheaper than what it would be in like, Jeffrey Shembert Ten in Burgundy, right? And these are two different grapes, and there are many different ways. But, you know, at the end of the day, this is a light body, red wine, that's really good with chicken. Well, so was it red burgundy? That's, you know, $500. But to your point, if you picked this wine up and you put it in Jeffrey Shembert Ten, it would look a little different because he picked it up and put it in Jeffrey Shembert Ten, but it would also command a different price tag. And that's an interesting distinction between quite a lot of luxury. So what are your quiet luxury brands to go to then? You know, as we were talking about this brand that I really do enjoy, I enjoy the Clementine bag while the horse, not necessarily because I spoke on it, but I love what it represents is that people are willing to walk away from this traditional Fuji Prada, Louis Vuitton, and still feel that level of recognition by other people, very similar to you with the row bag. Because once you heard her go, she didn't say, "I loved your bag," she said, "I saw you." Yes. That's really what it is. Big difference. Big difference. Right. So I can only imagine if you're wearing a come time bag with a horse or you're wearing a pole in bag or you're wearing a. DeMilleier. At DeMilleier or Malik, so many different options. To find someone on the street that goes, "I see you." It just means so much more because it means that they've went through the same journey of walking away from these big brands as you have. So those are the kind of brands that I look at as quite luxury right now. I do love what you're doing because I think you don't shit on brands, which is great. I mean, you did call Goir at Beef Tartar, which is hilarious. You feel love beef tartar. It's just funny in the comments. People love beef tartar. I love beef tartar. But he was so good. He's like a lady in the conversation. She was like, "What do you mean? I love beef tartar." And I was like, "Yeah, you're getting the joke. You just haven't understood. You got it yet." This idea of like, "Damelea, Polen." I'm trying to think like, "What's the history behind some of these brands?" Like, are they newer brands? Are they, or are they like legacy that we just didn't know about before? Well, with a lot of the research that I've done with these brands, none of them really share. And which is something that I wish they did do is none of them really share their point of view as to why these brands were created. I mean, it's a really softball answer. I was like, "Hey, we wanted to give luxury and accessible price points." Yeah, it was great in school. But I think the next brand that's really going to command a lot of attention and currency in that space is a brand that gives a POV as to why they are the counterculture to these big legacy brands. Because ultimately, if Polen gets acquired by Elviumatre, they get acquired by caring. They lose their entire POV of value. Because we as consumers, we don't know why you were created in the first place. So I think that's a great perspective that you brought up. If any of these brands could just at least redeliver their POV, so very similar to what coaches doing where they're saying, "Hey, listen, we've been in these spaces, and we're reinventing ourselves for our modern consumer." And we feel that. We understand the POV and the perspective of that. But I think if any of these new brands really did that, they would take themselves to a longer level, for sure. That's an interesting point because there are a lot of brands, especially in Porto and in App the Valley right now, who are. They're what I would consider legacy brands. They've been around in California less time than in France. But they've been around to a degree that allows them to have had some circulation. They've had the ebbs and flows within who their demographic is and how they market themselves. And there's a handful in App the Valley right now who have been around since. Let's call it the 1960s, 1950s, 1960s, that were really popular for like two decades. Our sort of rooted in craftsmanship and rate-grade quality were concerned a little bit about who's making the wine, but more so it's about the tarot-ar. That had these interesting dips in popularity. Now, I've seen probably 10 to 15 of them trying to remark at themselves for the younger generation and their failing. I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's a function of transparency. I don't know if it's a function of. It's just not cool for the younger generation. But I think Coach is a great example because. What do you think Coach is doing well? Because my sister got a coach bag. She got the. What was the really hard one to get? My sister is a year and a half younger than me, so she's 37. I grew up with my mom loving coach. I feel a little canvas coach bags, the seas on it. And then it died. It was a brand that died and now it's sort of coming back. What do you attribute that success to? Is all successes that you have to be willing to lose in areas where you're never going to win in the first place? That's the problem with a lot of these brands that they're trying to win in all of these spaces. And the problem is you're not sticking to a plan that allows you to be dominant in the space and lose all the other people that were never interested in the first place. So Coach finally came to terms. They're not going to win over a $5,000 client who's looking for a bag. And nor should they ever try. Because there was this era where in the 20 times where Coach was just like lobbying for this middle ground of death. Right. Right. And they just come to terms. They say, hey, listen, we're helping people who are looking for a great quality bag at a reasonable price that it's all about quality. And that's what we're standing and we're dying on that hill. If you walk away from us, you walk away from us knowing that that's where we stand as a position. And I think a lot of brands, like you were considering with the wine, they die because they're positionless. They die because we don't know what category you're trying to dominate. Do you feel like fashion has really found its place in the last decade? Because I don't know if it's a function of me just getting older and caring more, but I do feel like fashion's gotten so much better about marketing in the last 10 years, whereas wine just cannot find its groove. Like even, I think just listening to you now, it's like, you're saying all of the things that I think we've all been thinking in the wine world, which is like, you can't be everything to everyone. You have to figure out who you're marketing to and you have to figure out what your brand stands for and what drinking it, what a consumer drinking it is going to say about them. And that's where I think wine has really missed the mark in that, as I said earlier, a five dollar bottle of wine versus a five hundred dollar bottle of wine is going to be about more than just price and about taste. It's going to be about what does it say about you? But I think the wine world treats it like they're the one and the same. The wine world treats it. Like, we're just selling a commodity, we're selling a piece of cheese, we're selling something that can be produced anywhere. And where I think the fashion world has really succeeded is they figured out how to segment and sector who their demographic is and specifically who they are. But I don't necessarily feel that that's been always been the case, but I might be wrong. I think all businesses have suffered that because we're living in the economy now where the buyer has the most leverage they've ever had in any point in human history. So, right? So, and you're not necessarily out of tune with fashion, as you were saying earlier, you're so in tune to yourself that you know the things that don't work for you. Because if you ever see on social media the fashion week was just a week and I'm watching these videos, probably similar to you and I'm like, am I so out of touch that none of these things resonate with me. I just don't care. People are like, listen, Gucci's debut with, you know, Demna, and I'm looking at it. I'm like, none of this has ever answered any of my POVs of why I should care. And that's one of the really important parts is because back when I was working at North Shroom, we would always tell the buyers, we're like, hey, listen, we would need some kid in the house. And they would look at us and be like, no, they deserve to wear 104 and three and four of those and if they can't walk in it, that's their problem. Then the pandemic happened and surprisingly enough, every brand just starts making a kid in you. I just didn't know, you know, I guess they looked at the data, but we as consumers know the data because we are the data. Right. Right. So you're talking to people. We're on the grounds, we're in the front lines, right? So ultimately, any brand that's going to be successful moving forward from now has to be hyper aware of the perspective that they are pursuing customers to understand because the customer already has a perspective, you have to just align it with what you're delivering. And I think now in this advent of social media, to your point, like, there's so much information, right? Maybe it's not all of the information that we want, but like, if I wanted information on what the cool, quite luxury bags were 10 years ago, I would have had to physically walk into a Nordstrom, asked to see you and have a conversation, right? But now, you and I can have a conversation without you even knowing about it. it, right? You can give me all these recommendations and I can say, "Okay, this person resonates with me." And so I can have all of these trust agents within the fashion world, which I think is maybe to a degree what's lacking in the wine world is like there aren't enough of me. There's not enough, but there's no wallet out there that's saying like, "This is what's cool, this is what's not cool." And so maybe we need more of that, I don't know. We do. Yeah, maybe just to talk about more bogeylae, which this is a wine that like it will evolve, but it's like it's not meant for that. It's not meant for contemplation. Like it's meant for really delicious sipping and it is kind of a wine that needs a little food. So if you don't have any, like feel free to take a bite of chicken, I won't be offended. But it does, you know, it feels a little like has that little like zing to it. So if you're drinking this at home because anyone who's a member of the podcast wine club will have this. If you're drinking this at home and you're like, "Ooh, this feels like a little edgy to me." It feels like it needs like some softer or some like rounding out of the edges. Like just grab some food. It doesn't have to be fancy. You know, it could be like it could be a snack, it could be a pretzel, could be a some lunch meeting, your fridge, like whatever's clever, it's fine. But grab a little nibble with it because I think it will help. I want to talk a little bit about, you know, we talk about this concept of building your seller, building sort of a capsule collection for your seller. I think having a wine collection, if you're a wine drinker, if you're going to be drinking wine at home, I think it's incredibly important. And I think, you know, the reason for that is, it's really difficult to make a decision on the daily if you're having to go out and shop for a specific bottle of wine for whatever you're having. Like you need to have that flexibility, kind of like you need to have that flexibility in your closet. So what are some of your recommendations and advice on building a wardrobe versus building like a capsule collection versus investment pieces? Like where does someone start? Like they turn, you know, they turn 30. We stop wearing H&M and Zara, or maybe we can maybe we continue it. I don't know. And we start really, we love it, right? And we start really paying attention to what we're wearing. Where do we start? What do we invest in? What do we buy? I'd say the first place to start is understanding which forms of emotions that you would love to express through your clothing. Because ultimately we can all be, have you ever heard of the term different buyer types and different? Okay. So I'll just give you the short in some sense. It's it's a lot. We all fall into one of the four buyer types and those buyer types express the way in which we shop the way we make decisions the way that we portray ourselves to the world. So the idea of a capsule collection really falls under which buyer type you are and then which part of that would you love to express? Right? So the idea of believing that this one universal blazer will work for all different categories of people wouldn't necessarily be the case, but your expression through that buyer type will be. But I think the first thing with a capsule wardrobe is understanding what do you want to express with the outfits that you love to create? Because if you're someone who loves to be reserved doesn't want to be in the spotlight, you're going to dress differently than someone who is outspoken, someone who wants to be this life of the party who wants to make a statement. So those the capsule collection won't make sense for those two individuals. So I think understanding who you are as a person, why you want to express yourself in this way allows you then the opportunity to understand which clothes help you assert those certain characteristics. So like a perfect example is like those those Alison and Olivia Blazers, right? Like there are people who look at that and they say please never put me in one of those ever again that looks tacky and there's some people that like they live in Dallas and they're like this is what Dallas is all about, right? So yeah, even though that is just a navy blazer, it's represents so much more than just a capsule collection laser. So I think really what do you want to express as the first place? And then once you can do that, we can really break down what works best for you. And then are there certain pieces that you would advise investing in first? Like is it a blazer if that's something that you know fits your general day-to-day needs or is it something else that you should be investing in? Like I have $300 to spend today. What should I get? I would always start with either a handbag or shoe. Not just because those are my things that I enjoy but because you'll have the opportunity to relive why you bought that item so much more frequent than a blazer. So with with a great handbag or shoe, you could find a way to wear it every day if not every other day and tap into that energy of why spending $300 may have been more of a leap for you than you originally would have. Very similar to going to an expensive dinner. You can't go to an expensive dinner every night just because maybe you have kids, you have a life that needs to be tended to. But you could probably do it once every two weeks or so. But a nice handbag or shoe if you could put that in every single two days or a day your life's gonna change. Absolutely. Yeah. I have been I have been eyeing the Clementine bag and I do I had to have questions about that bag because I've never heard of the horse. What is that brand? So from my very brief understanding it's a new that bag is a new design that they recently just made which I learned from a solid guy named Sean who were Neutrasonic Talk and I asked I said this to them. I didn't say this to them but I said it's my friend. Where the bag that they made for that bag to be $280 now it's $280 which the up the price after I made my video it's another conversation. Of course they don't. Yeah. Of course. So why would they? I do not want to know the technicalities how that bag is made because for it to be $280 for what you're getting is insane. It truly is. Why do you say that? Because it just hits the core principles of just making a great bag that if you're looking to make that lead from like hey I never bought any luxurious items for myself how would I know what is quality versus what isn't. This is a fantastic place to start at that price. Because the raw materials are there because the craftsmanship like how does one how does one look at a bag like that and know like oh this is quality this should be more expensive because it delivers you the experience similar to to you with the row that so many people have bought it that you are going to be recognized for having it and it's still at such a price point that it's accessible enough for you to then decide hey I love this experience with people acknowledging these outfits that I have or the decisions that I've made that I want to invest more to spend maybe on a totem blazer or something that is more pricey or to get that experience. Throughout this conversation I feel like maybe I've given you some little tidbits about my world and asked you some questions but is there anything that I haven't asked you that you've maybe wanted to like raise your hand and make a comparison or draw a parallel I mean I know there was a lot of like things at the top of the show that you were like oh like there's so many fun things we can tackle like is there anything we haven't tackled. What is the row of wine for you? It's clearly your fan, your fan of the brand I've seen the way you're dressing that Mary Kay would love to meet you at some point. We're both very tiny humans too so she feel at home. Honestly you know what it might be I actually I think of a perfect answer for this it's two wolves. Two wolves. So two wolves it's a wine you've never heard of clearly. Yeah. In Santa Barbara and it's pink swine. The singer pink. Okay oh really? It's her brand. Yep. She looks in Chicago. And she's from Philly. My girl we used to more from Philly. Uh huh. See all good things come out of Philly. You walked right into that one. This is such a perfect example because she's someone who really believes in quality material so she's someone that like it's farming first. She spent a lot of years working on you know bought her vineyard and spent a lot of years you know just learning the industry loving the industry like you could have a very long conversation with her about the wines of Rome. She's someone who's like really truly obsessed with wine but who doesn't necessarily make it a point to be the focal point of it. Like it's not it's a celebrity wine but it's not a celebrity wine and I think that's very similar to the row and if somebody were to see two wolves on a table it would be super rare because you know there's not a lot of it but I think that's a great example of like what the row would be. It doesn't have quite the like it doesn't definitely doesn't have the praise tag that the row has but I think there's a lot of similarities there. Next time I'll I come to Chicago I will bring you some champagne and I'll have some fried chicken. Where do you get fried chicken in Chicago? Anywhere fun? There's a there's a lot my favorite place currently it's called Cleo's Quizine. Okay. How do you spell that? See CEO. See CEO FC. I am. Okay. The vast cornbread I've ever had and I'm a cornbread enthusiast. Say last. Yeah. Cleo's cuisine for cornbread and fried chicken. And fried chicken. You're gonna love it. I will bring the champagne because if you've never had fried chicken and champagne it will change your life for sure even if you don't like wine. It's like it's one of those combos where you're like it's like the first time you have like like McDonald's and soda and you're like well it's delicious. It's like that you know but in adult form. Yeah. Anyway thank you so much for doing this. I know you know it's hopefully for everyone listening it was like a fun venture into like a slightly different world that is lives adjacent but also if you're in the wine industry and anywhere even remotely near marketing and you didn't get valued out of this podcast for some of the tidbits you had back there in like that beginning half. There was so many great takeaways that I think the wind industry can learn from this. And I think if you're someone that is a consumer of wine, just understanding how wine is marketed versus some of the other things in this world and that there, it should be segmented and it's not. And, you know, unfortunately, you've got to do a little due diligence on your own to figure out, you know, what lives where and how, but hopefully we eliminated some of that. Well, I, are you going to go down to this French beaster now and just like live there? You have a bestie. Yeah, yeah. Obviously I priority spend which time there. So this, this just adds more to that. So I appreciate you for giving me that opportunity. I love that I could be your entree into this world. I look forward to being in Chicago and actually raising a glass with you. But until then, where can people find you? You can find me on Instagram and TikTok at style by Huawei. And hopefully you'll be finding me on your closet very soon with products. So we'll keep you posted on that. Ooh, you're getting your own line. This is very exciting. Yeah, yeah. The Lord of two walls, two walls. I'll be continuing to watch looking for all of your recommendations. If you are a millennial woman like me, a great place to go for recommendations. And if you're not a millennial woman like me, well, there's probably a millennial woman in your life who would appreciate you watching some of his recommendations, especially since the holidays are coming and we can't just gift wine and wine glasses all the time. Sometimes we want to hand back. And this is the guy that you're going to find it from. So thank you so much. Cheers to you and the rest of your afternoon, whatever may be ahead. And I'll see you soon. Bye, guys. Cheers. Cheers.