Clippers Rock Bottom 9.0, Plus Charles Barkley on the Clips, 76ers, Lakers, ESPN, and Why He Loves Josh Allen

The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by the ringer podcast network where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did aliens. One of the most requested movies of the last couple of years. We have towel day and night's coming next Monday. That's going to be the ringer fantasy football guys taken over the pot on that bunch of football stuff next week Sunday. Me and sour new guest lines week one and we're going to do all of our NFL futures. I'm going to have a podcast on Tuesday, go on Wednesday night after the Patriots game. And then Thursday night after Rams and 49ers in Australia. So Sunday, Wednesday, Thursday, wall be live on Netflix. So stay tuned for that. I'm in Boston, Massachusetts, where I went to Fenway Park yesterday with my dad and my son and my daughter's boyfriend who is having an interesting week. We got to see a Mariners loss, but we had a great time and it was great to be a Fenway. One of my favorite places on the earth, not really enjoying the allergies these days. Went to my daughter's game on Tuesday. They won their first game in the season. She scored a goal. So that was fun. It's been an interesting week, up and down week in a lot of different ways, but that's the thing. When you bend in the limelight for a while, shit happens. Anyway, Barkley's coming up in a little bit. That's right. Hopefully every September, right before football season comes on the pod. We had him randomly booked. And yet in the last 48 hours, all hell broke loose of the Quippers. That's 24 hours. That's 36 hours, whatever it was. So we got to hear him talk about the Quippers. I am going to talk at the top of the podcast. All my thoughts on the Quippers can be right after the break, right after Project M and then me talking about the Quippers and then after that Charles Barkley, that's next. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by Fandall. 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Five first round picks, bombers out for a year, Lawrence Franks, six months, $30 million fine for bomber, can't go to his own arena. The arena that he just spent five years slaving over trying to figure out how to make the best basketball arena possible, can't go to the games next year. This was a phenomenal level of incompetence from bomber and the Quippers. When you think back to 2019 where LeBron had shown up in LA the year before, the Quippers were so desperate to be relevant again in year five of a bomber that they literally hoard themselves out in every way they could. Not only did they do everything it took to get Kauai, they trade SJ and all those picks for Paul George because that's the only way you can get them together instead of just playing poker with Kauai, which I still don't know where else he would have gone. Regardless, they get fleeced in the Paul George trade, which was defensible when it happened, but six years later, it looks like one of the worst trades in history league. They got fleeced by somebody named Uncle Dennis, who is no longer or now allowed near any kind of league business for the next five years. They got screwed over by Kauai Leonard, I think, you know, you think about like who didn't get punished in this? How about Kauai? He only had to pay a $700,000 fine. He got to go back to Toronto, the team he should have ended up with anyway. He didn't really lose any money, didn't get suspended for 20 games without pay, and you know why they do this because obviously the players union and maybe even Kauai too, it's like, hey, if you're easy on Kauai, we won't challenge this. And as soon as the players union can't challenge it, the Clippers have no recourse because they had agreed to abide by whatever the NBA found in the investigation. So if the players union is not suing and nobody is suing, this is kind of what they're stuck with. They have screwed up almost a decade and a half of their franchise dating back to this summer in 2018, like they're not going to have their pick in 2032. That would be 13 years after the Kauai signing. They could basically throw a bar in Mitzvah in 2032 for how fucking stupid they are. They've turned themselves into the Southern California Brooklyn Nets. They, I think, will have less fans over the next couple of years than they've ever had at any point in the history of the franchise, including in the 80s and 90s when the owner was actively trying not to spend any money. And somehow they are the single most depressing situation in the NBA yet again. If you think about the mid 2000s Timberwolves after the Joe Smith verdict and the damage that that did to Kevin Garnett's prime, Kevin Garnett was the 25 best players ever and makes the 2004 conference finals despite the fact that they lost Joe Smith and we're starting to lose all their first round picks within in 05 0607 never makes the playoffs, right? You've one of the best parts of the league. You can't even make the playoffs in a 16 team playoff. And they ended up having to trade them to Boston where he finally wins the title. This demolished them. And what happens and this is what's going to happen in the quippers. When you don't have picks, you can't get somebody like Yoke age or Janus to show up in 2027 or 2028. You have to start taking these huge risks. You take risks on people like Mark Blunt. That's what Minnesota did or Ricky Davis or you know, you're you're taking these big expensive contracts that people are actually trying to dump, but the player is good and you're hoping maybe it'll work out with the player. And by the way, if your front office is naked, like, look at Minnesota, they wasted the whole mid 2000s. Garnett trade was defensible because they got out Jefferson and some picks back. But then in 2009, you know, they passed Curry, they passed on Curry twice. So that demolished, I would say a decade and a half for the Timberwolves based on all the picks they lost, having to trade Garnett and then in confidence. Could that be what happens to the quippers? If Wogler, the first round picked the quippers got in the Zubak trade, if he becomes a bust, they took him fifth. I'm just saying, I hope he doesn't. I hope he turns out great. If he becomes a bust, this is the single most. Pressing NBA situation since the early 80s Cavaliers when owner Ted Steepion traded away so many first round picks, they had to create the Steepion role to basically prevent anyone from being as stupid as this Cleveland Cavs owner was. This will be the most depressing situation since then. All right. So the quippers are still professing like they're innocent, but, you know, if you do the sniff test here, and this is something that Pablo Torre did so well as he was doing on the podcast about it where he was, he had real evidence, but was also like, hey, does this pass the sniff test to you guys basically? Well, you look at the sniff test now from, from what we look at that report. We know that multiple NBA teams already said in the late 2010s that Uncle Dennis was making crazy demands. That's documented. They're like asking for hockey pieces of hockey teams and crazy shit. So we already knew that was happening in the summer 2019. From the report, these are just things that were in the report. Post signing, they said Uncle Dennis consistently pushed the quippers for 10 million year and extra quiet endorsements. And if you're read between the lines of 47 different things that you can just add together, it's clear they were like, yeah, all right, you do this and we'll try to figure out how to get you to 10 million years somehow. Four companies that he had endorsements with, this is from the report, each company had never before assigned an endorsement agreement over remotely the same financial magnitude and hasn't since that's notable. Also from the report, each agreement imposed minimal performance obligations on Mr. Leonard relative to the amount he has paid. I talked about this a few weeks ago. It never added up why he was getting endorsement money not to endorse anything. Well, the report spells it out. Go read it. 36 pages. Also from the report. No agreement was publicly announced. So you're paying up money for all this due to endorse your product, but we don't know he's endorsing it and he's not doing any work for it. Sniff test. There are also emails from the aspiration higher ups. The clippers are promising to increase the amount they pay as per quarter in line is what we pay this guy is a direct quote from one of the emails. Another responded, thanks for verifying. We should be fine if it's cash flow neutral. So this is basically, this is spelling out, clippers giving aspiration money and it's coming back to them and it's just kind of going back and forth because they're trying to figure out how to get quiet stuff. And then also in the report, clippers chief commercial officer Scott Sonnenberg talking about the forum deal that they had. I never wanted this forum deal. Always knew it was super shady. I cannot begin to tell you all the red flags. these deals just doing what I'm told. So that's documented, not great. There's there's some what if stuff. I got some good questions about this over the last 24 hours, including, you know, the quippers, the five first round picks are gone. Should that have just been the prize for the in season tournament. They're not going to do that. But the first round now, 2019. So everybody has a better chance of they move up in the draft. So it has all these ramifications. So everyone else in the league has to be delighted that the quippers got their legs cut out. And it also makes the draft a little easier for them. The most interesting email I got was from Tim from Philly. Who asked, let's say the quippers won in 2021. And then it turned out all this stuff had happened after the fact. What if they had won a title? What if they won the title in 23? Would Adam have had to revoke it college sports style? One of the weird things about this was a lot of the Kawaii stuff was really centered around the extension, like the 2022-23 range. One of the years where he was hurt, I didn't understand that part at all. And it almost makes it seem like it was some I used to have to. There's a million things I don't get about this. The biggest one being, why are you doing all of this for a Kawaii Leonard? I get it. He won the 2018 title and you could argue he was the best player in the world at the time. And he gave you credibility to battle LeBron and all this stuff. But you're dealing with somebody named Uncle Dennis. And you're in this world, you could say you could talk about, oh, every NBA team does this. This is a whole other level of what every other NBA team would do. Like even if they had gotten him an endorsement to do like an El Segundo subshop. And he held the sub up like that famous Scotty Pippin sandwich ad where he's holding the one with the giant footlong sandwich with the two girls between them. That's one of the funniest dads of all time. Even if he had done that and they overpaid him for that, at least he was getting paid for work. I just can't believe that these people who also built like an awesome building who seem really competent and everything they do were this bad when you read this 36-page report. But then you think what more could we have expected from the most incompetent sports franchise of all time? I wrote a piece, The Curse of the Quippers in 2009 after Blake Griffin got drafted where I spud all the stuff. I'm just going to rip through the highlights not even from that piece but everything after. This is a team that traded for young Moses Malone in 1976 and then flipped them six days later for two first-round picks. They traded their MVP two-time MVP Bob McAdoo for John Gino and Cash. They traded two starters and an unprotected first for Bill Walton who had broken feet and ended up having 35 surgeries. Players they stupidly gave away or lost since the NBA merger in 1976. Mentioned Moses and McAdoo, Adrian Danley, Terry Cummings, Tom Chambers, Danny Manning, Lamar Odom, Andre Mellor, and Elton Brand. That's just in the 33-year span from '76-2009. They traded future first for World Be Free and Joe Bryant and those first became Charles Barkley and then I'm more on pick in the 1986 draft priority. They took Danny Ferry one spot ahead of Glen Rice. Even though Danny Ferry was like I'm not reporting the Quippers and ended up not reporting and playing in Italy, they had traded the Quippers. They passed on KG and Kobe and consecutive drafts and spots where the easel could have taken them. A lot of people passed on them but it's notable. They drafted Michael Ola Candy first and they're drafted with Pierce Vincent Dirk. They drafted or traded the following stars, traded for the following stars who either blew out their knee or their Achilles. Tiny Archibald, Norman Nixon, Marcus Johnson, Danny Manning, Derek Smith, Ron Harper, and Lloyd Vott. They drafted 18 forwards in the top nine over a 33-year span. They drafted Blake Griffin in 2009. Super exciting. Immediately gets hurt. Mrs. is rookie season. They traded Baron Davis in 2010 to get off his contract through 2010-11 season. The pick they trade to get rid of the contract ends up being the number one pick in the draft carrier ring. 2014, their best chance ever to make the finals. They get completely submarine by Donald Sterling scandal, which was the craziest owner scandal in the history of the league. Submarines them during a playoffs where it seemed like they might have the best chance to win if anyone in the playoffs. So that happened. They do the Kawaii trade which ends up with them giving away SGA and Jalen Williams and basically building the OKC dynasty. Then the Kawaii piece of it where he just keeps getting hurt, that basically blows up the first half of their decade where they never know if they could rely on him. COVID, 2020, it's forgotten that as we're heading into COVID, three teams have a chance to win the title Milwaukee and the two LA basketball teams. We go into the bubble. What was the team that completely fell apart in the bubble more than like famously, more than anybody. The team that just kind of wanted to get out there and didn't care if they won a playoff round or not. The Clippers. And then 2021, right when that season's wide open ends up being Phoenix and Milwaukee, what happens? Kawaii gets hurt in round two. They're not making the finals. That's the only time they ever made a conference finals. They did not have a retired number, at least that I know of. The best Clipper is probably Chris Paul, the best Clipper ever, who they just completely torpedoed their relationship last year. The second best Clipper they've ever had is Blake Griffin, who they signed to a big contract and then traded to Detroit, cut his legs out. And the third best Clipper is probably Kawaii Leonard, who just caused them a bar mitzvah worth of damage over the 2020s in early 2020s. So they have no picks in 29, 30, 31, 32 and 33. And I don't know how you fix it. So the big question for me, was this the right punishment? And this is, I'm not saying they shouldn't have been punished. I'm saying, was this the punishment that they deserve? Because I think you can make a case. Maybe you give Bomber the choice. Maybe it's either you sell the team or here's the punishment. And if you don't sell the team, your fans are going to know that you chose to keep the team and screw them over, basically, for a half a decade. So you pick, you tell us, because either you sell in the next six, nine months or here's the punishment. Because the part that gets lost in this is you have all these Clipper fans. There's not a lot of them, but they're there. They're around Southern California. And there's people that bought season tickets, including myself. I have season tickets with my friend, Mike Tolan, when they built this new building, they went around and they went to a lot of, they basically asked if you want to sign a contract. If you go, if you buy in for five years, you know, you get 20% off, you get this, you get that. So we're in year three of a five-year contract for Clipper tickets. And we signed up with a team that just cheated and got and got docked according to the NBA. Do they care about the fans at all? Like would they offer any Clipper fan? Like, hey, this was really bad. We get it. If you want to opt out of your tickets, if you want to, if you bought tickets for again this year and you want us to return the money, if you bought half of a season ticket, whatever, we're offering a refund right now. What happens if there's a class action fund? Like, if Clipper season ticket people got together and we're like, we're actually going to see the Clippers because we don't want to pay for tickets this year after everything that happened. What would happen? This has never been tested in the history of the NBA. And the bigger thing to me, and this is what I don't like about the punishment, I get why they had to do it that way and you have to have basically, this is the third rail and people know what it is now. The people that get punished are the fans. Steve bombers worth $15 billion. Right? Oh no, I have to pay a $30 million fine. Like he probably burped that out. Oh, I can't go to Clipper games for a year. Well, who watch him on TV? Julian Jacobs and Lawrence Frank, like they're suspended. He gave Lawrence Frank a huge extension right before all this stuff happened. The fans are stuck with the team. And this is what happened in Minnesota in the mid 2000s. This is what led when I was at ESPN. I wrote a magazine column about how I wanted to be the new GM of the Timberwolves because they'd hit rock bottom. And maybe they needed hope and some outside thinking, how do you fix this from a Clipper standpoint with the fans? Like, not only was this Kauai thing a nightmare from start to finish. They never won anything with them, right? And then on top of it, they had to trade for James Harden to try to make Kauai happier. And then they gave up more picks. This 2028 pick they have, it's probably going through the Celtics. I'm protected. It's like a Celtics six years. They get the best of the picks of wherever the pick played out. So even before they lose 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, that picks going to Boston in 28. So as a Celtic fan, I'll be rooting against Clipper's next couple of years. But how do you reconcile all this with the fans? How do you get them to come back? What do you do? How do you think outside the box to make them feel good about being a Clipper fan again, especially tying in the last 50 years of this franchise? And the fact that from the moment they moved to Southern California or started thinking about it, it's like somebody tossed a black cat on this team. And it's never going to change. And if the outcome had been sell the into a dome to the Lakers, moved this team to Seattle, I just don't think there's a lot of tear shit. I really don't. And I think what Balmer did with this team, where he was basically following the worst owner in the history of league, one of the worst owners in the history of sports, and somehow came up with an even worse outcome than anything from a basketball standpoint that happened with Sterling. So this is a disaster. I really think that there should be some outs for the fans because I think this is just bullshit. You root for a team, you pick a team, you're stuck with them, you're not allowed to divorce your team. So Balmer, we're allowed to divorce real people, but not our teams. And if you pick the quippers, you're just taking in the chin for your entire life. So how is that worth it? At some point, you got to come up with another choice for an NBA team. And honestly, I think it's right now for a lot of people. So yeah, I never thought the quippers would find a new rock bottom, but I think they have. We're going to take a break, we're going to go to Charles Barkley. And Charles's audio and video was cutting out a little bit. So there's some video spots that we had to run a picture when his video stopped. But it's that you're going to enjoy it. He's great. And he's coming up next. The Wilson is podcast is brought to you by Fandall. And guess what? Fandall is now everywhere. I'm not kidding. It's everywhere. California, Texas, Georgia, Florida, you can finally get in on the action at home, the game, whatever the group is watching. It's all up to you. Fandall makes sports more exciting because every fan can now celebrate your team winning or when the group chat calls to come back. It doesn't matter what state you're in wherever you are. Get in on the sports action with Fandall, download the Fandall app today. Fandall, play your game, age and location restrictions apply, product availability, varies by market. See Fandall.com for eligibility, gambling problem called 1-800-Gamber. This episode is brought to you by one of my best friends in life, NFL Sunday ticket. Man, I missed it. Kickoffs coming. Yeah, we're getting close. We're within a month with NFL Sunday ticket and YouTube TV. You get every game every Sunday, all in one place, and it's magnificent. And there's no other way to follow the NFL season. I'm so mad I didn't get YouTube TV until a couple of years ago because it's the best. New users that might include you can get NFL Sunday ticket for eight payments of just $30 a month. You heard me correctly. New users pay $204 or $8.8 non-cansible payments of $30 a month. First, charge app purchase, availability varies with NFL Sunday ticket for out of market games and YouTube TV for local national games. YouTube TV required terms, restrictions and embargoes apply, commercial use excluded no refunds. Charles Barclays here on a Thursday morning, which we had planned, I think for a couple of weeks, not realizing that the biggest punishment in the history of the NBA was about to come down against the sad sack clippers. A team that when you ended up in Philadelphia, you ended up with the clippers pick because they had traded their first five years earlier for jelly bean Joe Bryant. And you end up with that, you could have been a clipper. I mean, I mean, you probably wouldn't even be talking to me right now. You might be living in like a one bedroom apartment in Alabama somewhere. - Yeah, you listen, they look at it draw. - You know listen. - It was really interesting. Like remember when that thing came out like two weeks ago and the clip was like, well, we found no wrong doing blah, blah, blah, then like a day later and be like, no, that's very interesting. We got a different one. - Yeah. - So I said, somebody asked me what I thought. I said, well, NBA is trying to figure out what to do. The clippers are not very good at cheating. They got busted and they're trying to figure out a way to save the integrity of the people of the NBA. So they're not very good at cheating. I mean, this was one of them. Shout out to pop spray for uncovering, like wow. No break, like really easy cheating to find. - So listen, I think they did the best they could under the circumstances and the clippers that got what they deserved. But this was probably let Kauai come to Canada and that's the best case scenario. - Yeah, when Kauai, when that trade got Greenlit for him to go to Toronto, that made me suspicious because Toronto was probably the team in 2019 that had the most agenda against the clippers for how it played out. - Yeah, you know, listen, number one, Kauai should have never left Toronto in the beginning. He owned an entire country. He had a great general manager, Massager Harry, you Jerry. I mean, it was, it was one of the great runs, that was one of the great runs in NBA history. About one guy who took an entire organization to the top. - Randolph. - And he should have never left Toronto in the first place. But this is just a stain on the NBA, plain and simple. This looks bad. There's no way to, there's nothing you can really think from us. Got busted for cheating, any? - Then I guess they got busted twice for cheating because I guess Kauai was getting paid by two different companies. - Four. - I mean, sponsors that never heard of, people that didn't normally have sponsorship agreements with anybody, and that's when, once you get to four, pretty tough to cover up the stuff. - Yeah, like even if you did a commercial, you could least cover it up a little bit. - Yeah. - Yeah, like you could pay for not doing anything. That's really bad cheating. They could at least put him in some kind of a fake commercial or something like that to try to cover their ass. Which honestly, we gonna be honest, that's what they probably should have did. Like they have to know, especially when I saw when people started getting arrested, you know everybody's gonna flip and get less jail time. So that's when the aspiration thing went down, my man got jail time, you have to know that I just wanted to cook and start a crumbling. So if they were gonna cheat like they did, all they really had to do, Bill, honestly, just do a fake commercial. Even if they should have did something like that, so they would have been able to cover their ass. - Yeah, that was the, in the report that came out, where it really seemed like they took umberage at a couple of things the Clippers did, including like, you have this endorsement deal with a team that's never, with a company that's never done endorsements. And then there's no commercials or any sort of thing for the endorsement. And they have no other arrangements like this with any other athletes or celebrities. So what do you want us to do at this point? - Yeah, they put out them in a very bad situation. They put, and I got a lot of love on them. They put them in a bad situation. And they got him on rightfully so plain and simple. - Chuck, would you take money from a company that wanted you at this endorsement, but you didn't have to actually endorse anything and nobody ever knew you even involved with the company? I'd feel like you would do this. - Bill, let me, there is number of free money. Don't forget, there's never free money. Some of these stories you've been here and do our lifetime when something crooked happens. If you do something crumbly for money, it always comes out in the long run. - And I always do one of my favorite things is jail is full of people who didn't commit crimes. You're like, no, no. But if they ask you a question, obviously anybody would be tempted to take a lot of money, but there's always consequences when you do something illegal. There's always consequences, plain and simple. - Did you feel like this stuff was happening when you played or is this a relatively recent thing? - Oh, it happened when I played. The Rockets needed me to take a pay cut to sign Scott at Pippin. And I said, you know what? Well, y'all can get Scott at Pippin. I'll take a pay cut. - Right. - So there's a, we'll make it up to you next year. I'm like, fine. And it wasn't a lot of money. I think the most money I ever made, I'm not saying it like stupidly. Most money I made was like five million dollars. Which is a money. I know that, you know, the internet food's gonna go crazy. That's a lot of money. So I took a pay cut so we could sign Scott at Pippin. And let's say we're gonna make it up to me the next year. And I was on the end, I had nothing left in the tank, but I had one more year left on my contract. So I was sure for training camp in style, my contract. And they're like, well, we decided you wouldn't work this shit. So we're not gonna give you that money back. You're gonna give your original money back. - Oh, no. - And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They're like, well, you can go somewhere else. And at that stage, I couldn't get more than that money with them. I'm like, you know what, y'all pissing me off, but I had to take that money. Without you, remember, you go back. You remember when Joe Smith got busted, but the term was, but teams have always did under the table deals. What else I had? You take a pay cut here, we'll pick it up to you. I think they're that. I think the NBA is investigating a couple of those right now, Gary Tranceman. Yeah, Gary Tranceman is weird. Well, people are doing this a long time. So, you know, for the Clipper fans out there, where you have your team just get destroyed by first the quiet trade and then you lose a half a decade of first round picks, including you had a couple picks in 2009, now you have won. And the good point about it, they're used to losing. So it won't be a, it won't be a drug to the future. That's true. You know, 50, 50 years of experience with feeling bad. But when this happened with Joe Smith, who you just mentioned in the Timberwolves, I thought it had a profound impact on Kevin, Kevin Gardner's career. Just Minnesota basketball in general. It took them, I mean, they were hiring the wrong people, too. This is the team that famously took two point guards that weren't Steph Curry in the 2009 draft, but they made a bunch of mistakes. But ultimately, I looked back at that, and I remember writing about it at the time, like, holy shit, this Joe Smith thing, it might be ruining Kevin Gardner's prime. And they got the conference finals once in '04. And that was really it. He was in a lottery for three straight years after that. And I wonder what the Clipper is, is that going to happen? Well, the Clippers are not going to be running for the next five years, anyway. Listen, if you're in the Western Conference, you better get, you can get frequent followers, mileage to Oklahoma City and to San Antonio. And if you bought, if you bought 10 tickets to San Antonio and 10 tickets to Oklahoma City for the next five years, you're going to get to use them. Everything in the West is going through OKC and San Antonio the next five years. Those, so they have two great organizations, they got great players, they're well coached, like the NBA championship going through San Antonio and OKC the next five years, not just to West, but yeah, so that's the only saving grace for the Clippers. They're not going to be irrelevant for the next five years, but most scenes in the West are not going to be relevant for the next five years. I talked about this at the top of the podcast, but do you feel like there should be protections for fans with this stuff? Like do you think the season ticket holders of the Clippers should be like, this whole thing happened. I didn't sign up for this. I'd like to be led out of my season tickets. Like should fans have better protection? One hundred percent and be a one one and one thing I've always said, I think this would be a rule that you cannot raise your ticket prices if you below 500. I've always said that. I don't think like some of these teams, but they raise their ticket prices every year no matter what. I've all, I've steadfastly said this, that should be a rule in pro sports, as you cannot raise ticket prices to go team below 500. And I don't even think that's that much of a like issue. Like if your team is below 500, you should not be able to raise your ticket prices playing as simple. Yeah, I wonder like even in the second half of the season when the team's clearly trying not to win. If those tickets should be discounted, we don't think about this stuff at all with the paying customers for whatever reason. That's a little bit different because if you ask a fan, are they trying to get to that damn lottery? That's a different animal. But now everybody, the lottery isn't the same anymore though. Like if you're in the bottom three, now you've less ping pong balls. Yeah, but I think the NBA screwed it up. What they have at I've said from beginning, every team in the lottery get one ping pong ball. That's it. But there's no sure we were watching with ping pong balls for losing. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Like, okay, you gonna get one ping pong ball. That will force you to try to win down the stress. Because like what we're gonna be in the lottery, we're not gonna get more balls. I've not always thought the NBA screwed this thing up front of beginning. Every team in the lottery get one ping pong ball. I mean, I think you can count on one hand. The amount of time the team with the worst record actually got the number one draft pick. Yeah, they never get it. So why are you rewarding them to tank games the last 30 games of the season? No, you know, you're going to be in the lottery. You're going to get one ping pong ball. And that's it. That'll be a easy, simple way to fix the lottery. Can you explain to the people listening who are a little bit younger who don't remember the 80s and 90s, how incompetent the clippers were when you're an NBA player. What it was like to play against them. What just what it was like to have them in the league during that stretch? They're kind of like a lot of baseball teams now. The clip was always had good players, but they wouldn't pay them. I tell people this all the time. The notion that every team was trying to win in sports. It's not true. It's not true. Some of these guys are just great businessmen. They're making money because they split the revenue. Their team is getting evaluated on five, two and three hundred million more every year. So they're running a business. But Donald Sterling was a great businessman. He was an awful person, but he was a great businessman. The clip was go back real. I've said this for years, it's impossible to be bad at sports. It's impossible. Think about this. If you're going to get a lottery pick every year, your teams should get better automatically. When I'm talking to my friends, I said, these teams, some of these teams are not trying to win because think about this. If you're a great lawyer, you're going to go to the best law firm. If you're a great or you're going to go to the best hospital sports, we're the only job in the world. Think about this. We're the only job in the world. But we tell you, you suck. But you know what we're going to do? We're going to let you pick a new crop of people coming out. The best of the best. And you said it earlier about Minnesota, they picked two point guards and back to back years that were named step curvy. They just don't know what they're doing. I tell people it's impossible to be bad at sports. If you just, unless you got bad people don't know what they're doing, go back and look at every draft. Think about this. The side of Antonio Spurs. They moved up to get caught. They drafted toned parkers in over in Hall of Famers in the second round of late first round. That's they know what they're doing. You know, people didn't pick Jaylen Bronson. They picked him late. People just don't know what they're doing. Now they're using analytics. But the best way to evaluate basketball players and get people who know exactly what they're looking for. But I do. If you're not good at your job, but a lot of these guys, general managers, they keep their job to like three head coaches. And if they get lucky every now and then, they keep their job. But it's impossible to be bad at sports if you know what you're doing. Yeah. To that point, like think about Oklahoma City, right? In the late 2010s where Durant Leaves, they have Westbrook. They make a big play from Paul George. They're kind of, they have a low ceiling. They're not going to make the finals. They know it. And then Presti, it within a year, completely rebuilds the team, makes the Paul George trade nails a couple picks. And they go from like, we suck to now we're a title contender in two years because they played the system correctly. But a lot of teams don't. Number one, nobody thought she was going to be this great. But it put Jaylen Williams. He took check home groom. And what the thing Sam does been anybody in the league. He got guys on the bench that are incredible, right? Isaiah Jill, I know they just treated him. They got to jail and Williams cared. Like he can, because you, when you're dropped as low as they are, you have to know what you're doing. It's actually, he's from the San Antonio model. And he said he's doing like the same stuff with what's generally embarker. Yeah. The he's getting late. First round, second round are really, really good players. That goes back to what we're talking about. If you know what you're doing, but there's guys who pick guys in a lottery who can't play dead. You know, but if you know what you're doing, you got to have a great scouting staff. You got to have a great man place. So you look at like some of the other teams and what they did this year, right? Philadelphia, sometimes, sometimes you get lucky, right? Philadelphia, Maxi fell to 21. They end up, they get him. That's a great, great pick. They, they take for one year, they get VJ Edgecombe, great pick. Jayla Brown, the Celtics want to move off him. They're in the right place, right time with that, they get him. And then all of a sudden, the bronze, like, hey, that's looking pretty good over there. I'll jump in too. And now all of a sudden, they have the number two odds in the east. Yeah, you know what's interesting about that bill? I've been asked, you know, I live in Philadelphia doing a summer, because they got the best golf courses in the world. So I pick off everything. So I've been in Philly for the last two months. I have been asked 9,755 times why the Census Treaty did in Brown to Philly. And 9,752 times I said, I have zero idea why. And that was to me one of the craziest trades I've seen in my 40 years in the end. NBA. I can't explain it. It doesn't make, like, okay, the self is don't want to deal him brown. I understand it clearly did not want to get him out. Hit him brown. There is no way in the hell you trade him that close to number one, the team you got to play five times in a regular season and probably going out to beat get through in the playoffs because the sixes were dead. The sixes were dead. They were relevant. They had a agent Paul George and an agent JLNB for the next two years, two years would hear Paul three or four years would be. They were dead in the water irrelevant. And now of a sudden, they get Jayman, they are back in contention. And then you throw the chair on top with LeBron, but there's nothing anybody can say to me that I can go on TV or on your podcast or anywhere in the world to say that tree made sense for the Celtics. That's just crazy. Yeah, I've obviously been sitting with it all summer. And I think about two weeks ago, talked myself into at least maybe why it could work. But fundamentally, I just thought JLNB was so good last year. And I get that they didn't want to pay two guys that amount of money. Like both of them had top 10 contracts in the week for value. And to me, like the more I stare, all George makes similar money to them for the next two years, they didn't have, they don't have, they didn't have to pay Jayman right now. I think what they were thinking was Paul George and Jayland, they're making around the same money this year. Next year, Paul George is an expiring would allow them to circle back, but that it was interesting. Some of the rhetoric they had about like Steven's who, you know, is always very careful what he says. And he just seemed to think like the team ran its course with those two guys and that it wasn't sustainable anymore to contend. And that a year from now, they're going to be in the same decision they were in this year. And they had to make a move. They had to change the team. They had to move Jayland out use all these people in his spot. And that was either going to be them going sideways or maybe even going up. I just, I watched the whole season last year. I thought Jayland was incredible. You know, and that's the part I can't wrap my head around trading a guy off an awesome season. I just haven't seen that before. Yeah, Jayland was great last year. And let's be honest, when Jason gets a chance to have an entire off season summer, he's going to come back being a MVP caliber player. They would have been the favors of my band in the East. I think that next thing was what one of the greatest runs. But I think they're going to regress a little bit. Yeah. But they in my opinion, and dealing how to stay with the Celtics, they would have been the favorite in the East going forward next year. And if even if you want to get a next their respect, they would have been the 17 in the East. Right. So listen, I'm trying to wrap my head around it to be honest with you Bill. Well, I can say, I'm not even I'm a post of them a trade in Jayland, but you don't trade them to fill it down here. You don't trade them. You don't say I even the owner of the sixes told me he says, you're a great player. I've got to trade you. I'm not trade you anywhere in the Eastern Conference. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you trade him out West. But they trade him to Philly to a division rival. That was just crazy. Now, like I said, you because of Brian, there's no chance of Brian comes to Philly. There's zero chance of Brian comes to Philly if Jayland's not there. Here's the here's the thing with that. I didn't see Mike. There was a marker for Jayland, which is even more surprising, but goes back to what we talked about in the beginning about a lot of these teams are just stupid. Like they if Jayland's if they're basically like, Hey, we're shopping Jayland Brown. Yeah, we've seen all the teams in the NBA. I find it hard to believe there was in the team or two that would have been like, yeah, well, we'll we'll make a run on him. We'll go for him. But you were in the situation when I when I think about like chemistry and stuff, which was obviously a reason they wanted to split up Tatum and Brown, even though they got along, there was like no bad blood or anything. But I think that there was a little bit of a whose team is this thing that they just wanted to get ahead of and they didn't think it was solvable, especially how good Jayland was last year as the guy. You went through this in Houston when you guys got Pippin. Now, you guys were older, but you had Pippin and Hakim and you and you guys were all your all three of the top 35 parts of all time. And it didn't work. So why didn't it work? Was it beyond you being old? Why didn't it work? Just because we were old, we made it to the conscious file of like I think my first year in Houston. But you're not with Pippin. Yeah, but that's the only good year that we had. We were broken down and Scott didn't want to be there. Yeah, he took the money, but he didn't want to be there. Now, we voted to pull him right away after that, but we were just old has bands to be honest, what you feel? We had one good year. I mean, we remember stocked and hit the shot. Matt Meloney that year. Yeah, my first year in the patient, we had a good year. And and and I was cooked. I had a good seven year, but after that, I was cooked. But it was a key was cooked and cloud was cooked. And that's why cloud and that's why honestly why Scott had wanted it out of there. But remember, remember, we traded a came the next year. Yeah, but we were just all cooked to be honest with you. People only we got a key finish in Toronto. People forget that. But we were all cooked to be honest with you. Yeah, there's some tough jerseys from the 90s because we have Ewing was in Seattle and Orlando. Yeah, he was in Toronto. Some stuff Tony Parker ended up playing for Charlotte in the 2010s, you know, it always ends badly. Yeah, badly. You know, it far the time is always going to win. I think it's a league easier. It's a lot easier today. Let me get that out the way, because there's no physicality. So you can play another couple years. But like all the physicality's gone out the game. But but most great players, it always ends badly. I mean, he could say Michael for the Wizards ended badly. If you want to be honest, it didn't he wasn't Michael Jordan playing for the whistle, but didn't make the play. I've seen there. Yeah, but it's always going to end badly if you keep screwing around with far the time. All right. So we kept we've been saying this about LeBron for the last couple of years. And you know, I just does he defy it? Because Brady defied it. Brady played to his 45. He won a Super Bowl. He was an MVP. And this was in his like early 40s and he kept going and going. Can LeBron be the only guy who defies that? We have to be honest about LeBron. And he gets swept into playoff the last couple of years. So just cause you're putting up good numbers. Don't be you're being effective. And I don't I'm not taking a shot at LeBron. It's just facts. You know, people say he's defying the odds. I'm like, well, for my memory serves me correctly. He's got swept into playoff the last couple of years. I don't. Yeah. So I said, is he putting up good numbers? Yes, he's putting up good numbers. That does not mean you're defined because it's to me. It's a lot easier to get numbers now. It's a lot easier to get numbers. But I'm saying in LeBron's playing well, don't get me wrong. But to say he's being far the time, I'm like, they got swept the last and we're going to be honest. You know, we got a lot of step step step for wives out there when it comes to LeBron. You didn't agree with LeBron or you just hating on LeBron. I love the way Jaylin Rose was getting some heat. He said, the media's turned into LeBron fanboys. And I know they're stepping wise. They just go along with whatever they say. I said, LeBron's playing pretty good. I agree with that. But they've gotten swept the last two years in the playoffs. So don't tell me how great he's playing because if you can swap, you're not playing that good. Yeah, I guess he's playing great for a guy in his 40s. But the issue is, and I think this has been the issue for them the last couple of years. And they clearly knew it because they didn't really want him to come back. You have, you basically have two spots. Would you set that again? They didn't want him to come back. I've been saying that all summer. I'm so glad she said that because I'm dealing with these fools in the media, like LeBron left the Lakers. I said, LeBron didn't want LeBron. They were like, it's time for us to move on. Like, I love the way he released that statement saying, I've decided to move on. Like, dude, the Lakers, they held it like, no, it's time for you to move on. But I'm glad you sent it like that because I tell people, you think if the Lakers really wanted LeBron, he would have left there. Come on, man, stop it. These media guys are so like LeBron made the decision to lead the Lakers. Like, no, the Lakers made the decision for LeBron. And they made the decision in January, February and the Luca got hurt. Yes. LeBron had that resurgence. But the issue with LeBron were they needed to do it. It was time for him. And I was disappointed he went to Philly. I'll be honest with you. I wanted him. I thought it'd been a great ending for him to go back to Cleveland, but he has no affiliation with the 76s. I thought it would have been a perfect ending. And let's be honest with you, I think honestly, if LeBron went to the Cavaliers, they would have been my pre-season pick. So they got a really, really good team. They just need some leadership. And LeBron had a went to the Cleveland Cavaliers. They would have been my pick. And let me tell you something, if you would have to go out winning the championship in Cleveland. I can say, I'm always going to take my greatest player, but LaBonne's career would have been the greatest career. If he got to went back to Cleveland, because if he wins the championship in Philly, it'd be cool, because Philly had won in a long time. But if he had to went back to Cleveland at 42 years old, or 43, if he'd gone play two years, and walked out winning the championship, it would have been the greatest career. Like, it had been Brady-esque. But Brady is at the top of the food chain on careers. But if LaBonne at his age would have been back to hometown and win, it would have been the greatest career in sports history. >> Yeah, I don't think he felt like he could win with that team in the same way is my interpretation, because it seemed like at the beginning of free agency, he was headed to Cleveland. I would have bet anything on it. And he was the only team he was actually meeting with in person in real ways. But something scared him off on the Cleveland thing. And maybe he thought they could get rid of James Howard. And I don't know. >> Well, listen, you know what I just what I think, I don't have enough proof, I'm just going out of my ass. I think once he found out, they had probably did an under-table deal with James for three more years. I think that's probably what scared him of. Because I believe if he went back to Cleveland, they would have been the favorite. No question. I mean, they got to the conference finals last year. And you had LeBron with his leadership to go with those guys. They would have been the favorite. But there's no doubt in my mind. Because first I was surprised they gave James three years. But it makes sense like, okay, we have promised him that deal. >> One thing about LeBron just from the last couple of years, I think what's changed even though you, the numbers were relatively the same, right? I think the issue is you basically have two spots for expensive guys on an NBA team, right? The way the salary cap is now that the second apron. So if you're going to really pay two guys, you better make sure you can win a few playoff rounds in a row with them. And LeBron and his age clearly, I don't think he could be one of the two guys anymore because of the grind of the season. How you have to play in both ends? And if they wanted to pay Reeves, that you can't pay Luca Reeves and LeBron and expect to win more than one playoff round. So I think they were out in February on it. >> I agree with that, but I still think if you had them want to clean them, would come twang tower and down to the main. And LeBron is going to have ball and board James Harden if he had them there. I thought that would have been the third person in the East of my faith. Because they were, I mean, like I said, what the team they had, they got to the conference finals. And one of the worst coaching jobs and one of the worst NBA games of the team blew a point of point of view, like that. Like they were close. So if LeBron had a one there in my opinion, they would have been the favors in the East. >> Here's the thing, if you're paying LeBron four million a year, that's a great deal. I don't care what team he's on. Like that's amazing value for somebody. Like why do you think San Antonio didn't want them? Because they end up going to bias Harris instead and doing some other things. But San Antonio was so close. I felt like he would have a huge impact for them. >> That team, first of all, those two guards. I don't want to see them for the next 10 years if I'm a guard in the NBA. >> Yeah. >> Pop up and count and then count for it. If I'm a guard in the NBA, I do not want to see them for the next 10 years. They're going to be the best, they're going to be the new step in clay. I really think they're like, no, you know what, let's just do it organically. We got to win a beat, we got to, we got to, so, yeah. And I think they won't probably be the girl into the leadership role on his own. Because they're going to be the team to beat with OKC, but the next 10 years in the NBA. I mean, you're going to go through OKC and San Antonio the next 10 years. I'll take a bit right now. If you say, give me OKC in the spurs. They're going to win five championships in the next 10 years. I'll take that bit five in the next 10. I'll take that yes. >> Here's the thing, like normally, I would say you're right, Chuck. I think that's the right instinct. We've had eight champions in eight years. And we've had a bunch of teams already that people were like, oh, what, like Denver after 2023. Watch out for these guys to be the next dynasty. Celtics in 2024. >> Here we go. >> Hey, let me tell you something. If you go back and look at those teams, if the Nuggets have to treat it, everybody, they probably would have repeated. >> Right. >> That's kind of, this first one, seven games without OKC having their second best player. OKC probably would have won that series if they had a head, Jalen. >> And they probably would have beat the next. But so, and listen, I'll go back to this. If the Celtics have never, you know what the Celtics super power was, Prasinkus? >> Yeah. >> If they could take them healthy and brown and kept Prasinkus healthy. Celtics would have won another two happens. It's always been something flaky that happened. We would have had some teams that would have repeated. When the Celtics have Prasinkus, I like, nobody can beat that team right there. Prasinkus that would gave them a super power to, because you had Tatum and Prasinkus. I'm like, nobody can beat that team. I said that like in January and I didn't know Jalen Williams is going to get hurt. I said, OKC is going to win the championship and he got hurt and never got help to watch show ever. Listen, OKC and His Burr is going to be bail in the West. But I'll take five out of ten. I'll take that benefit, put it out there somewhere. >> Yeah, but you just made the case why that's not going to happen. There's so many dumb things that can happen with these teams. You can have injuries, you can make one dumb trade, you can't pay everyone at the same time. I just feel like we've seen, like the Warriors, who they won three and five years basically, right? When Durant came, but they won one before Durant, then they won two after and they lost them 19. And we would have said when he showed it there, oh my god, they're going to win eight of the next ten. Then they won two more and then they won the extra one in 22. >> But they probably wouldn't want another one if LeBron, remember, they got the package from the NBA when they suspended Dream on. They probably wouldn't want another one. >> And remember? >> Yeah, I remember. >> Yeah, I think this OKC team is bigger and deeper and I think this first team is bigger and deeper. So they don't have some, listen, this will be kids. He's got a chance. He can do things that most people can't do. Yeah. OKC is the deepest team in them. They're the deepest team in the league. I mean, they almost made to the fouls without their second best player being out. I think he only played in probably 30 games all year. >> All right, so if I'm the rest of the league, and I agree that on paper five and the next ten could go through San Antonio. Okay, see, I'm thinking, well, who knows, with injuries and money, especially when B7-foot say, I'm always scared of him and his health, all this stuff. What happens with Chet Homegren the next couple years was that an aberration in the playoffs last year or maybe he's not as good as we thought he did. I'm talking myself in a certain reality, because honestly, the next thing, the next and the run they had and the fact that they basically just came together for nine weeks and won a title. It makes me wonder, is that do we have so much talent in the league now? Could that keep happening? >> The next probably the greatest run in NBA history for a good solid team. I don't think they are great team, but it had one of the Boston's turnings and one of the great all-time performers, which is interesting because I don't think he won the next sign and they thought he was going to be this great. >> I mean, I don't think, and I remember there was a bunch of clips and he kept receipts when he showed where people bashed him when he went through the day. This is not a need of mover blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I love when he played that video, but man, it's been one of the great surprises. He is turning one of the great players in our league, but they want to one of the great runs, one of the great runs in NBA history. But like I said, I'll take my chance with OKC and Asperger's. But when they do that, the future, I'm going to put some money on OKC and Asperger's for the next five years for sure. >> OK, so you're over under next five years, three and a half titles for OKC and Asperger's. Sounds like. >> Oh, yeah, for sure. >> OK, how much fun are you going to make fun of the Lakers this year? The snowtime Lakers. All the way, guys, just the weird team they built in general. This feels like it's going to be comedic fighter for you on the show. >> Now, I really want to see the Lakers do well. First of all, I'm a big, Rupa Santa, big, Austin Orange fan. I think they're going to be better than people realize. >> Really? >> Yeah, the Luka and Kyrie took the Laker, took the Malf to the finals. Come on, man. This team is probably better. This probably team is just as good as that team. They're going to be fine, I think. Are they going to win a championship? I don't think they're going to win a championship. But the league is better when the Celtics, the Nix and the Lakers are good teams. Yeah. See, listen, when all the crap that was going on in the NBA with this low-manifest bullshit, the quiet thing and all the stuff going on, I think the NBA got the luckiest league in sports history with the next win in the championship. I thought, I've been in the NBA for 40 years. This was the best feel-good story that I, I'm trying to think when we've had a champion that was such a feel-good story. Dallas. That, the only one is Dallas and Dirk, but that was really one player versus a whole city in all the history. It's a great, an all-time great getting that monkey off his back. He can't win. It's happened. I agree with you, Dirk. It's the only other in the conversation where it was something that everybody felt good about basketball. Well, I remember with Dirk, the first time, I think one of the first times we ever did a podcast when I was at ESPN, you called it the shit list when a guy, when he, no matter how great he is, if he doesn't have the title, you're just on the shit list and like, Dirk pulled him so off the shit list, right? Yeah, he did. Dirk pulled himself off the car, Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barker, Brad Ewan, shit list, Elton Baylor, one of the all-time greats. Elton Baylor? Yeah, I was happy for Dirk, because there's nothing. You know, you don't go crazy over it, but when you hear guys talking about it, these are all the time greats and players who have won the championship. It comes up all the time. So it drives you crazy, like all of a sudden, we're like golf and tennis, the individual sport instead of a team sport. I'm not sure how that actually happened, but it happens. So, but other than that, 100% agreed to you, other than Dirk, Malone and the championship. And this winning championship was probably the second best field good story we've had in a long time. Do you think it was repeatable? Or are they a one and done? I think they're one and done. I think that was just a perfect storm, you know, honest with you, I do, I'm just thinking with a perfect storm, because you know, one thing is quite a kill. The Eastern Conference has become better than the Western Conference. Yeah. If you take away the Brooklyn, you take away the Brooklyn nest, there's not a bad team in the Eastern Conference. That's the one and things that got science me about Philadelphia. You know, drill and beat has never played a full seat, but Braun hasn't played a full seat in front of six years, partly going to be able to hold them. Because like I say, other than Brooklyn, every team in the Eastern, even the Washington, we're just going to have a good team. I mean, come on, man, what's the last time we've been able to say that? 10 years. So every time the Sixers play the Celtics, it's going to be a dog fight. And so if they don't have those guys, and they're the number eight seed, and they have to win three series on their roles, that's hard to do. Well, you also have the miles from the previous years, right? They made the conference finals two years ago. They went all the way last year. We saw that with the Warriors where they had that five year run. But by the time they got into year five, they're running on fumes. The rink gets hurt, quite Thompson gets hurt, you know, the 100 playoff games, 95 playoff games a year kind of adds up. Yannis and Bam on Miami. Yeah, they don't have a good team. But do I think they're going to win a championship? No, but they got a lot of spots to build, but they're going to be a good team. You can be Bam and Yannis, that goes back to my original point. You know, see that's why I'm being in LeBron, both got to stay healthy because every game, what I can say, the only team, and I shouldn't say it because I'm going by last year. Yeah. The only team I can see the stinks in the Eastern Conference is Brooklyn that Atlanta's going to team now. Orlando's going to have a good team. Charlotte. Charlotte's got a good team to win. Indiana's back. Indiana's going to be a really one Indiana's going to be one of my sleepers. But also, well, let me tell you something, you know a team is going to surprise people this year. The Utah Jazz. Yep. Danny is quietly building a really, really good team. They're going to surprise people. People say, who's your sleeper this year? I said, man, Indiana's going to be really good. I said, because the Zubas trade, they got kind of got screwed in the lottery because they couldn't got another good player. The Zubas back, Zubas is a hell of a player in Halliburton, but I said, man, watch out for the Utah Jazz. They probably get, now they got to figure out what to do. Are they going to keep, what's the market market because they can just start their future quickly with him. They could be a playoff team with him. But if they traded him, they could get a king's ransom because he's a hell of a player. Yeah. Come with you on Utah because the X factor for them is a Peterson is good right away. They're going to be really dangerous because that's like exactly what they needed, like a guard who could create offense at Danny Games along with the other guard they already had. But yeah, I'm watching them, too. It's time for a special part of today's episode brought to you by my buddy, NFL Sunday ticket. We've all been there. You're watching one game. You're constantly refreshing and feeling to see how your fantasy matchup is doing. We just did our fantasy draft here at the ringer. So I get it. Luckily, with NFL Sunday ticket and YouTube TV, you get every game, every Sunday, all in one place. So, for instance, Trevor Lawrence is my quarterback in the Jaguars, I have four TVs going, probably going to put him on to see how he does. Colston Loveland on the Bears. I thought he was the best tight end value. I think he's a top two or three tight end. Very happy to take him. Get to watch him on the Bears, David Montgomery on the Texans. I get to watch him in their defense. I think he's going to score a lot of touchdowns. Sam Laporta, who I took as my flex, even though he was also a tight end. My theory was, I want two of the best five tight ends. He could be my flex. Maybe I can trade him down the road to somebody who's a little desperate. And then last but not least, Ashton Genty, who was just a value pick because he's a little hurt, but I got his back up, Mike Washington. So I do a little handcuff action. Now in the late games, I have something to stick with the Raiders. This is where multi view comes in instead of flipping channels, use the multi view builder, pick the exact NFL games you want. And it's a total game changer for your fantasy team, for whatever, whatever you're getting out of that football Sunday. New users can get NFL Sunday ticket for eight payments for just $30 a month, get every game every Sunday on one place with NFL Sunday ticket and YouTube TV. New users pay $240 or eight non-cancellable payments of 30 a month first charge to purchase. Availability varies when NFL Sunday ticket for out of market games. And YouTube TV for local and national games that exist too. YouTube TV required terms, restrictions and embargoes apply, commercial use excluded, no refunds. Tell me how your ESPN experience was because it seemed rocky during the regular season. And then the playoffs, you seemed like you guys again. Yeah, it was great. The only thing I didn't like we never worked. I thought it was disrespectful to the fans because this and everything. We were very sad them own. This is crazy how they were great to be honest with you. They didn't do anything when you're in a relationship, you wanted to work for both people. And I called them all the time, and I said, "Yo, man, if we do what somebody don't like tell us, we love what y'all doing." And I said the only thing that I had a problem with and people complain about is to do the fans don't know when we're on. We opened the season bill in October. We worked one day in November and we worked Christmas day. Right. I said, "We worked three times, three months." I said, "The fans can't find the games as it is because we own three different networks. They don't know what night different things are." And I thought that was disrespectful to the fans. I know these TV networks, I know they pay a lot of money. But we should do everything we can to make the games accessible to the fans. And I didn't think we did that last year. Still on us once a month to start the season. I didn't like that at all because the fans like, "What the hell? When are they going to be on again?" We're like, "We're on once a month." The rest of the time they were on NBC and Amazon, "No, let's help the fans find the games. That's what we should do." So I feel like there's some endarounds like they could put you on ESPN+ or ESPN2 and just try to keep you in the habit of being on once a week, seem to be the easy fix. That's just not going to happen, okay? That's not going to happen. So stop it. You just told me you wanted to work. Yeah, but I'm not going to do that every show shit. That was the one thing I laid down. I'm going to be a good team player, but I'm not going on every show. Number one, I think it's really important for me to limit the amount of times I'm on television. Like, when I'm on, I want to be on. No, no. You misunderstood me. I'm saying do more inside the NBA, not other shows. I'm not on TV at all right now. Yeah. I don't want to be. I don't do shows right now because when the season starts, I want to do our show. I'll do a couple eats fan things, but the last thing you want to be is on every show. I don't want people to get sick of sand. my face. I'm very strategic. I've done the same thing. Like I have, I'm doing your podcast. I have been on TV since the season ended. I went on TV one day when LeBron announced this thing. They had me all over down creation. I cursed LeBron as out because I was on my way to the golf course and they called me to turn around. I was on my way to the golf course. They called me to the bronze going to make a decision. We've made it even funny and weird, Bill. I was on my way to the golf course in Philly because I live in Philly during the summer and I went back and they didn't know where he was going. So I had to go chill and talk about it. Then he announced it was on Philly and I spent the next five hours on TV in Philly talking about LeBron coming to Philly. I was so damn pissed. I told LeBron when I said I'm going to kick him in his ass. But I really do a conscious effort. I told ESPN, I'll do greenie every now and then because I got much respect for greenie, I'll do Stephen A every now and then. But the one thing I'm very conscious of, I don't want to be on TV all the time because I don't want people to get late. And listen, and I don't want to call our guys, you know guys who love sitting themselves on television. I don't want to call anybody out. I have an idea who you're talking about. I'm sick of you on TV. You don't have to go on every show. You don't have to have an opinion on everything. So to get back to your original point, I'll do greenie every now and then because I like him, I'll do Stephen A every now and then. But no, I'm not going on every show. That's not just not going to happen. I can promise you that. Well, at least you're not doing the thing this year where you're claiming you're going to retire. To get you retired more than Muhammad Ali, I think Muhammad Ali had seven retirements and you had nine. Bill, let me, let me, I'm going to say you this for the last time and I need you to listen to me, like my girl, due to say, if you do a due to say, I need you to hear me. Listen to me. I need you to hear me. You listen, but you're not hearing me. So I told TNT, I was going to retire at 60. And they're like, oh, he's full of shit. He's not going to retire. So we come up. I'm saying, hey, guys, this is my last year. They're like, what do you mean? I said, I told you, I was six years ago, I was going to retire at 60. They're like, you were serious? I said, yeah, I was serious. Then they said to me, do us a favor, stay two more years until we get the new deal. I talked it over with my friend. They're like, I said, okay, I tell you what, I'll stay to 62, which was last year. Yeah. And they said, they said, I say, I'll stay the next year. Little that I know these fucking idiots was going to lose the NBA. And I say, like, so I had made up my mind. I was going to retire at the last year. So I said, okay, I'm good. Like I say, I'm going to pass it to Jamal Crawford or Jalen Rose. I'm good. So they're like, okay, so then they're like, well, we need to decide. I said, I told you I was retiring next year. They said, we can't let people think you're retiring. But we're going to go skating a new TV deal. I said, that has nothing to do with me. I'm retired. They're like, you know, we tell people you're going to stay. I said, yeah, okay, tell people I'm going to stay, but I'm not staying. But I didn't know they were going to lose the deal. So I'm retired. This is true story. I meet with NBC. I meet with Amazon. NBC offers me a deal. I'm like, I appreciate it. But no, thank you. Amazon never offered me a deal. But I said, I met with them. I said, no, thank you. So I think I'm retired. I get a call from Ernie, who's the person I trust and respect the most. He says, Chuck, they got this deal on the table. But ESPN is going to take our show, which you consider keep working. I said, well, Ernie, not really. He said, but everybody can keep their job. Not me. I'm going to check everybody behind the scenes. You know, Bill, I really love the people. I've been with him for 26, 27 years. I was like, Ernie, how long do you want to stay? He says, let's keep your job for two more years. And so I said, Ernie, I'll stay for two more years. But he says, Chuck, I'm planning on retiring in two years. I mean, Ernie, our practice deal. So to answer your question, Ernie said to me, Chuck, would you please stay for two more years? I say, you know what, I love you, man, you're the best. I said, I'll stay for two more years. So right now, I'll let Ernie change his mind. Next year is my last year for 100% Bill. But I always have to explain to people these retirement conversations because I like, I'll explain why I was going to retire. But so right now, Ernie, Ernie told me this year and next year was his last few years. But the only reason I stayed is so everybody can keep their job behind the scenes. We're talking about two more people. But I'm hoping this show keeps going on ESPN. But if Ernie retires after next year, I'm done. Because we're packets deal. I got so much love and respect for that guy. If he says he's done, I'm gone. Because let's be realistic. I could have went to NBC and made more money if I was concerned about money. Right. NBC offered me more than I was making it. But I was like, it ain't about the money. I say I'm done. But man, I really wanted to keep these people. Because I've been, like to say, I've been able to keep people at either 26 or 27 years. I get to know them and all their families. And, but like I said, I can't just keep working forever. Do not be six or three freaking. No, I'm not. Listen, I want to down the golf course, Bill. I don't want to die on TFT on ESPN. Definitely not. I don't want to hear it down and I don't want to drop dead on the 13th hole. It's funny when I went to see you for the first time we met was 2002, I think. I went to do a piece about inside the NBA when I was writing freespin.com. And one of my takeaways was like, oh, this is why the show works. These guys love each other. And it's so funny. Like you still have that same relationship with Ernie 25 years later, basically, where now you feel like it's you and him to the end. Yeah, because number one, I remember I told you how you think about it. I said, man, I'm a big fan of yours. I read your stuff, blah, blah, blah. You're like, what? I said, I'm a big fan of yours. I remember you kidding? Yeah. So, you know, you know, Ernie, and he is the glue to all this stuff together. Yeah, he works is behind and he's been through so much stuff in his life, you know, the son had a couple years ago that was traumatic for us. You know, he battled cancer. You know, when you work with somebody, I mean, I can't even believe you know what's really funny. Ernie's giving me shit all the time, because when I took the job, he's just he pulled me aside. He's just be honest with me. How long are you going to be here? I said, Ernie, I'm going to be in five years and I'm probably going to take an NBA job. And like once a month, he says, Hey, how's that year five thing worth now for you? Because I'm not going to lie. I recently, I recently thought I some of the TV for three or four or five years max. And then I'm going to take an NBA job. And now 26 to seven years later, it's amazing. I would have loved to have had you as a GM in the mid 2000s when I was right in my column. When we had that was like the atrocious GM apex, all those teams, the necks and the timber wolves and I don't know if you would have fleeced them or you would have gotten infected by them, but something interesting would happen. You know, I've had three chances to be a GM, but they wouldn't give me total control. I said, Yeah, no, I'm not leaving my job to take a job and I'm going to get fired. I said, right, I saw this happen. My joy would do with this. Like they blame him for everything, but I say, I said, I have no problem with y'all blaming me for anything, but I'm going to have complete authority on all the drafts and trades. They're like, well, you have no experience. I said, can you take them behind my brother? I said, I can always tell who's going to be a good NBA coach or a coach in general bill by the assistance they hired because a lot of these coaches, one thing I admire about Nick Sabin, he hired every ex head coach because he knew they were going to be a good assistant and they're going to do things the right way. They want to be a head coach again. A lot of these coaches hired their friends and their buddies and they like somebody who they ain't worried about taking their job. I said, I don't want somebody want to be an assistant their whole life. I'm going to surround myself with successful people. But Nick Sabin, you go back. Every coach he hired Kirby, Lane Kippin, Sarkeesian, the coach at Maryland. Like he hired guys who had got fired, Bush Jones, because number one, they know how to run. If you a head coach is a coach, because being a assistant coach is like night and day we're being a head coach, but he hired guys who had ran things, who knew how to organize things. But he's like, I'm going to strome the systems around me, but a lot of these coaches going back to the area you were talking about, they hired their buddies who didn't know what they were doing, who were like, they were worried about somebody taking their job. I want somebody around me who was ambition, who wants something other than an assistant. You got to be successful, you got to surround yourself with successful people. Right. I agree with you. I've tried to do it. You always come on every or at least September before the NFL season, I think this is the fourth or fifth straight time. You have opinions, you have picks two years ago, we looked this up two years ago, you picked the Eagles to win the Super Bowl and they actually did. So I think you're one in four lifetime with us. So obviously everyone's on pins and needles to see if you can increase their percentages. What do you have for the season? I would say something man, I was so excited when last Saturday happened, it was my Christmas, they call it week zero. I finally got to go into what's booking bed on football. I was, it could just feel like, now it's like Christmas for me every Saturday and Sunday for the next six or seven months, football is my favorite sport. I don't normally leave my house on Saturday and Sunday, so I bed on football every weekend. I just freaking love it. I do. And so last week, I went into Casino for the first time and it got a little to me like it's like Christmas for you and it is like Christmas in the middle of the damn summer. I'm good to go, I'm good to go for the night. I love going into Casino every Saturday and Sunday bed on football, Bill, I do. But this gonna be, this gonna be a great year. You know, obviously everybody's on the rounds, Ben Wagon, man, it's great to see Aaron Donald back. But in the, in the L.C., man, I want this team to win the Super Bowl. So damn bad, Bill, I don't want to see the Buffalo Bills. Josh Allen to me is the best player in football. I saw him ever say that the other day on EFM, he just disguised the best player in football. And they went out and got him a weapon, DJ Moore. I hope it's enough. I hope they improved their defense. I would love to see they got a new head coach, obviously. But I want to see the Buffalo Bills because, you know, you talking about the shit list earlier. I think one of the greatest accomplishments in sports history, they're never gonna get recognition or to love and deserve as the Buffalo Bills going to four-street Super Bowls. That's never happened before, but they're never gonna get the respect they deserve. It's one of the great, because, you know, you talked about early, all the wear and tear you put on your body when you play all those extra games, all those year after year after year. But the Buffalo Bills had to, you know, and it sucks. They've never gotten the credit and respect that they deserve, but at accomplishment. But I'm, I'm all in on Buffalo. I would love to see them win the EFC and get to the Super Bowl. And the EFC, man, the Seattle Seahawks have to be the most disrespected champion in the history football. I got a chance to meet their coach, coach, my Donald, and Link Tahoe, and man, the job he did, man, they, that defense was incredible. Sam Donald, he didn't see ghosts anymore. He just saw the Vince Lombardi, but that defense was incredible. They don't even mention it anymore. It's all about the Rams, like I said, I know they got miles, and, and I'm glad to see Aaron Donald back. But man, the Seattle has to be the most disrespected team, Super Bowl champion in a long time. Can your Patriots be good again since they got my man, AJ? You know, that's going to be interesting. You know, how are my Eagles going to do now that, that's the big question in Philly. There's going to be a lot of pressure on Jalen, to play at a high school. So if you look at it, listen, I think the sleeper team, and it's not, you know why I know that a sleeper team, the quietest mouse in the room has been Jerry Jones. This is the, this is the first time that I can ever remember, they went the entire preseason without Jerry being on television every single day. That tells me he thinks the Cowboys got a legit chance. I agree. Super quiet for two months. Listen, you think about for the last few years, it's been Michael's contract, that's contract for the last three or four years. CDLAM. CDLAM's contract a year before, I haven't heard Jerry all preseason, which tells me he think they got a good team. Yeah, I agree. So, yeah, so they're going to be really good, man, but that's what, you know, there's always going to. Can Calla Murray? Come on. Let's come on. Let's cut. Let's listen to him. McConnell is a genius on offense. Can Calla resurrect his career? Yeah. Oh, here's another while. It's now and never for Lamar and Baltimore. It's not. Never. That's what makes. I tell people, when you play sports, when you got a good team, if you get another season, there's nothing like a bill like, guys know when their team sucks, but when you, I tell people, very few years when you play basketball or football, you're like, you got a chance to win in the championship or win in the Super Bowl. Like, I played for 16 years, probably five years, I'm like, we got a chance to win in championship. And probably football is harder, but you know, but it's probably, it's probably 10 teams has got a jet chance to win the Super Bowl, the other 20, they're like, we trying to get better and we make the playoffs, we're going to have a good year. But when you like the Patriots, they got to get to the Super Bowl to feel like they had another good year, Buffalo, Baltimore. Two thoughts on what you said, because I said this last week about the Seahawks. I'm so glad you said that about them being disrespected. I was making the case last week. They might be the first NFL Super Bowl champ who is a nobody believes in us team. Everybody's moved on. They have basically 95% of their team is back from last year when they dominated everybody. And I don't know, everybody's just blowing the Rams, blowing the Rams, blowing the Rams. But if you mentioned McDonald, how good of a coach he is, you know, he's going to use it as motivation the whole year. Everybody's already hitting the Super Bowl of the Rams. It's like, we didn't even win. You know how this goes? This happens at football all the time. Yeah, I heard some idiots on TV talking about 10 of Rams go undefeated. I'm like, undefeated, damn, they ain't made the playoffs yet. So, but, you know, that's what makes fodder, but like, you know, you know, who I got a man crush on, Dan Campbell, I want to see Dan Campbell, I'm allowed to see Detroit get back to the playoffs and do some damage. I mean, it's so, but that's what makes sports crazy, Bill, that's a, because last year nobody expect your patrons to get to the Super Bowl. No. No. I thought they'd be good. I didn't see it. How about Sean Payton in Denver? This might be the favorite in the AFC. They might have got to the Super Bowl this year if my boy told me some Almond didn't get hurt. I mean, there was two teams, the Denver absolute could have beaten the Patriots and probably would have next didn't get hurt. And then Houston would have beaten the Patriots of Stroud that didn't completely fall apart in that game, because Houston had the best defense, at least in the AFC, maybe in the whole league. And also can he rebound, he probably got more pressure on him than any player in the NFL. When you got a defense that good and you would read the single hand of the reason they lost, and like he's probably, in my opinion, he's probably got more pressure on him than any player in the NFL. I truly believe that. Well, and that's the difference between basketball and football, because in basketball you're all basically one unit and you have a starters in the bench in football, you have the offense in the defense. And if you have an awesome defense, and your QB is just letting you down over and over again, it's almost like, like when Matt Maloney couldn't hit a three-point shot in the playoffs for you guys. And it's like, that's one guy. But this is like an entire unit that's just submarining you. You just, you just don't have to turn the ball over. You don't have to play great. Right. Drive the car. Yeah. You just keep us on the highway. And so, and that's, and that's the thing, it's hard to play sports on the pressure. Is he going to just let it fly or be tentative? That's the hardest thing about sports. people don't realize, just hard to play sports under pressure. Like, if we once he told his first interceptor, how's he going to react? Right. So that's what, but that's what makes sports intriguing. That's why we watch. Well, and then the quarterbacks just in general this year, we have Lamar's at a really interesting point in his career. You have Nick Sue, I think has a team that at least is like a top 16 potentially. If he's good enough, you have Jalen, Jalen Hertz, who you haven't even mentioned yet, with a huge spotlight on him now, with another offensive coordinator, no AJ Brown, making a lot of money out at Eagles fans. Where are the Eagles fans staying with Jalen Hertz these days? This is going to be a big year for him. This is going to be a big year. This is going to be a big year because, you know, they took the noise out the room. Okay, because they took this to other guy. So we got rid of the other guy. Now, okay, it's on you. And this and that's the way this thing works. They picked the guy. They said, okay, this relationship is not tangible. And they're like, we're going to take you and that's just the way this bounces. It's all on Jalen now. Yeah, the rams thing is interesting because comparing it to basketball, when you have heavy favorites in basketball like San Antonio, Oklahoma City, you can't even bet on them to make the playoffs. They've made the odds so high. It's like literally impossible to bet on it because you know, like whatever happens, they're going to have the infrastructure to be good. And in football, you know, the rams as good as they're like top seven or eight are and as great as their coaches, it's still football. And you lose two of those guys and you have a top heavy team and all of a sudden that can tilt away. So anytime I ever see somebody that's a prohibitive favorite, I just don't, I'm not buying it. I don't think anybody should be a prohibitive favorite. Well, you know, there's some guys on television and radio have to pick somebody. And they'll pick the prettiest girl. You know, can Matt, can Matt Stafford stay healthy? You know, he stayed healthy and won MVP, but you know, he's up there in AIDS. So it's, you know, they took the kids something from Alabama. He's like, I didn't play other rookie. So, but that's what that's, that's what makes sports amazing. Like sports like in real time, like you get to be high, low, mad, sad, excited. We do all this stuff in real time. That's that's why I want to season first on his bill. It is such a ray of joy over cities, over people. Right. It's beautiful to watch. All right. So it sounds like, so I have a Houston and Seattle and the Super Bowl and I have Seattle winning back-to-back. Your Super Bowl pick is what? Some two defenses that you picked. The final score going to be 17-14. That's as my man said, that's going to be a slumber knocker. I'm, I'm going to, I'm going for Josh out. I'm going to go Buffalo Bills against Seattle and the Buffalo Bills are going to win a Super Bowl over Seattle. 21-17. Wow. So you're saying they finally get off the hump. Josh Hound gets off the shit list. Buffalo as a city gets off the shit list, just like a shit list cleansing. And it's going to be one of the great days in this pool. My man Jim Kelly, Thurmond Thomas, Bruce Smith, Darryl Talley. Yeah. See, I forget. What's Steve's name? David Ponte-Retarna, The Great Crick-Retarna. Oh, Steve Lasker. Forget his name. Who? Is it Steve Tasker? Steve Tasker. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love those guys. I became a Bills fan because the Carnage Minute and Jim Kelly and Darryl Talley and Thomas and those guys and Bruce Smith. So I want them to get off the list because just the same way I saw, just see the excitement on those nicks, players, Patrick, Larry Johnson, John Starks and all those guys. I would love to see those guys be on the parade with the Buffalo Bills. Got a new stadium and everything. Yeah, really now that the nicks have won the title, I would say, is it the sons? That would be the most euphoric fan base if they won the title. They haven't, they haven't since 1970. They've had a team and they've great fans. We're not going to win a championship. That should be said, brother, stop that bill. I'm saying down the road, not this year. Well, how about my success? That'll be great too. Hey, you won an 83. Real. That was, I guess that was a long time ago. I asked Millennium. Son's never won. I know. Thanks for reminding me. Well, it's true. But no, it was great for New York. I said, it was exciting, but man, that's a beautiful sports deal, man. You start from you start from the bottom every year and whatever happened, it plays out in real time, real time. So would you, would you expand if you were the NBA, or would you just move Brooklyn and the Clippers to two different cities and stay at 30? Well, we need a team in Seattle. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, there's the other has the best fan base in pro sports probably. That was one of the worst decisions they made moving that team out of Seattle. I always feel bad about screwing a fan base moving the team, but the number one priority, we need a team in Seattle period. And I know they want to do Vegas, but the number one priority should be Seattle. They had a bench fan base in sports. We agree. Charles Barclay, a pleasure as always. We'll see who's right. We both have Seattle and the Super Bowl. You have Buffalo. I have Houston. I have Seattle winning. You're Buffalo winning. We'll see who wins. Thanks for having, man. You're a good man. Continue success. Thanks for having me. You too. Always great to see you, Charles. Thanks. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Charles Barclay. Thanks to Eduardo Gahal as well from the ringer. And I'm going to be back on Sunday. We're going to be live on Netflix. I think at seven o'clock ET, me and South doing guest aligns week one, plus our NFL futures draft that we always love to do. Enjoy the weekend. I will see you on Sunday. Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star Casino, or 18 plus in president DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming, game prom call 100 gamble or 1 800 by reset call 888, 7977777 or visit ccpg.org/chat and Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800 327 50 50 for 24 seven sport Massachusetts or call 8778 hope NY or text hope NY in New York for Louisiana call 877 770 7867