Cliffe & Stuart Knechtle On AI, Loneliness, And Gambling (EP 202)

Death is just a stage of life. That's about as foolish as saying to a quadriplegic. Peralysis is just a stage of exercise. Death is not a stage of life. It's the end of life. I want to be in control of my life. I'm going to define my identity. I'm going to define my gender. I'm going to define my sexual practice. You think AI is dangerous for the soul? We are created not to be lonely, created for relationship, and AI is tearing that apart. It's what you said, say, "Ceaser is Lord and live." Or else, "Paint the Jesus is Lord and we're going to kill you for it." You walk by a father or a mother with a starving child in their lap. You say, "Oh, I believe in Jesus." God bless you. You all have a good day. And you keep on walking. You are a flaming hypocrite. A whole little body of that little baby girl who was born dead. And if you don't grieve when you lose someone, it means you don't know what love is. Hey, before we get into today's episode, I want to share two quick things with you. First, if these videos have meant anything to you, if they've encouraged your faith or helped you see the gospel a little bit more clearly, I just want to ask you to subscribe. A lot of people tune in every single week and haven't hit the button yet. It only takes two seconds and it helps us keep putting these conversations in front of people who need them. And the second thing, this one I've honestly been really excited to say, I'm officially announcing our ministry's biggest live event to date, Open Heaven live podcast tour. It's happening November 8th this year at the Pavilion at Toyota Music Factory in Irving, Texas. This is going to be a night-centered around worship, faith, real conversations, and genuine community. I believe God is going to move it a powerful way and I would love for you to be in the room. Tickets are on sale right now. You can head to briskroffer.org/tour or just click the link in the description below. And please, only get your tickets through my official site or that link below. I recommend not buying from random resellers online. I believe this is going to be a really special night and I hope to see you there. All right, let's get into the episode. What's going on, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the briskroffer podcast. I'm Bryson today. I'm with my dad and uncle. Click the steering pin at 3. Okay, let's go. Let's go. Thank you guys for coming on. Thank you, man. It's great. It's exciting to have us. Yeah, no. What's like, thanks for having us. But this has been amazing. I actually love you guys a ton. You guys are so fun to be around. We love you, man. We love you, man. I appreciate you all a ton. I really want to open up with everything going on right now, political divide, wars around the globe, tensions high. Do you guys think that's a sign of the end times? Do you think that we're just in hot water? Do you guys think it's going on? You know, obviously, if the son of man doesn't know the day or hour, we're at, we can't, we have to start there. And I don't know if I mentioned this to you, but a friend of mine one time said, don't have another child because we're in the end times. And that child's not going to be born anyway because he's going to return or you're going to bear them into the end times. And I'm a friend who's an atheist. He said he was never going to have children because we're in the end times, even though he would say there's not another time beyond the end times. I think the confusion around that and the nihilism that comes from it and just the muddied thinking is so emotionally unhealthy. But I see great things happening when it comes to reading the times and people, especially Christians, people being more focused on justice and how to go about fixing things. But you always go back to what was going on during that time, suffering, pain, persecution under Nero. What we're not talking about, hey, is he's going to return right here right now, at least the majority weren't. They were talking about how can we bring more people to Christ, even though we're suffering so much pain. So Cliff, you've spent 45 years doing campus ministry. Can you believe that long before you were born, brother? That's right. What do you think is different about the times now than what you've seen over the course of your campus ministry? The questions are basically the same, but the emotional fragility is off the charts compared to what he used to be 40 years ago. Emotional fragility shown by, oh gosh, Donald Trump won the election. We got to go to the crying room. That's pathetic. My dad, when he was 18 years old, was up in the mountains of Switzerland with a rifle. And his dad was on the front lines, Mike Rampal, as Hitler's Panzer divisions approached. What a stark contrast. Talk about some emotional strength back at the time of World War II, and some emotional fragility today. It's amazing. Secondly, although the questions are the same, there's a different definition of tolerance. When I started, tolerance was defined as we disagree, but we're still going to respect each other. Then it moved to everything's equally valid. So tolerance just means making sure that you understand that there are no contradictions in life. If you're an atheist or a theist or a Christian or a Jew or a Buddhist or a Muslim, you're all saying the same thing. And I would argue that's being brain-dead. I think that's very disrespectful. No, I don't agree with an atheist. An atheist does not agree with me. That has nothing to do with tolerance. Tolerance is respecting each other in spite of the fact that we have disagreements. And then now we've morphed today into tolerance is canceling people. You know, I don't care what you look like, but if you disagree with me, I cancel you. And that's tragic. That is really sad. I can't have a friendship with you if you're a racist. I can't have a friendship with you if you disagree with me about sexual morality. Oh, that's tragic. We're human beings creating the image of God. We have to love each other and respect each other and tolerate each other, regardless of how many differences we have. So that's a different definition of tolerance that I've seen more often change over the past 45 years. That's so interesting because so we did an episode, Andrew Tates for other Tristan Tate. And we had uploaded the picture that we had taken together, said, you know, just had a conversation with Tristan Tate, you know, excited for you guys to hear it. And I remember I was looking at just the feedback and so many people were like, I can't believe you're standing next to a guy who's accused of trafficking and accused of all this. And you're like, okay. So allegations are allegations, but whether the allegations are true or not, does that make that person not something that you would just have a conversation with or love despite their mistakes? You know, exactly what you're saying. That's always been a, that's really confused me. I think a lot today it's the political difference. Oh, if you differ, if we differ in political ideology, then we can't be friends. How could you be friends if you're a Republican with a Democrat or Democrat? How can you be friends with a Republican? And you would think that people would believe that friendship is deeper than a political attribution, but also we're living in such a big information age right now that people think that they can Google one fact and kind of hammer you for it. Stuart, in an age of information, how do you stay grounded in facts without drowning or numbing yourself out with an overload of sources, AI responses, things like that? One I would just be very careful how much information you really consume and what it is. So we know that there's a clear connection in Scripture with the sins of the sun, oftentimes repeating the sins of the father and how those sins are passed down. And we see that in something called a crev' gene, if you get that type of negative information, that type of crev' gene can morph into negative, depressed or anxious thinking that actually can literally be passed down to the next generation and it just goes on and on and on. And so I think in this information age, people are just fully accepting any and everything. It's hitting their emotions so strongly that then it hits their thinking as well. And what does Romans 12 talk about? Do not be conformed to this world. But it's like it's got to be consistently renewing your mind and Paul talks about this in second Corinthians, taking every thought captive. And so if you're not renewing your mind, if you're not taking every thought captive and looking at the facts rather than the feelings, well, you're just going to continue to pass on this negative type of thinking that is so emotionally driven, not connected to facts to the next generation. And as a mental health therapist, you'd look at the statistics and it's downright scary. Talking about delayed gratification, no more. I mean, the Christian faith is all about delayed gratification, denying your flesh, seeing what is to come by renewing yourself in the spirit through the Holy Spirit. And so so many of these Christian understandings of how to live life and how to think are impacted heavily by information age that is so driven by narcissism as well, like you said. And any and everything that is tied to like psychotherapy, for example, when you receive negative information from somebody, you want to be a victim or you want to buy into the heroic narrative, which is let me be a victim, let me find a way at least to be a victim so I can gain power being a victim. So I'll just take and accept as much information as I possibly can in order to manipulate and become a victim. So I think so many of these things are just detached from who Christ created us to be and the strong identity we have in Christ, and instead people are just all over the place, not knowing what is true, not knowing what is right or wrong objectively. So how do you stay sober and watchful then right now in an age where there's an overload of information where narcissism is taking place where you can't be friends with someone based on who they voted for in an election. I mean, how do you stay sober and watchful? It's really no different from the first century. Christians stood before Roman soldiers and Roman soldiers said, "See, Caesar is Lord and Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, used to deny Christ. That's pretty intense. So the challenge is, think through what your convictions are, think through what is true, what is real. And when Jesus said, I'm the way the truth in the life, no one comes to the Father except through me. He wasn't kidding. In the same way when he said, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those who were sick and in prison, he wasn't kidding. And this spring we were at Duke University. And after seeing that Cameron basketball arena, we were walking down a sidewalk and all of a sudden some rather big guys were walking with us. They were part of the football team that won the ACC this past year. And my brother Stewart, along with my son Stewart and I were walking along, we had a good conversation. And afterwards when the football players peeled off, I said, Stewart, did you have a good conversation? He said, yeah, I sure did. You know who I was talking to? I said, no, I don't have the faintest idea. He said, that guy Kevin, who plays football here at Duke, has an uncle who played football at Brown, came to Duke med school here, and then he went on a short-term mission trip to Sudan. The only problem is while he's there in Sudan, so war breaks out. And so the United States Embassy says Americans out of here. This guy says, no, I'm gonna stay here in Sudan. This guy ends up marrying a Sudanese woman and adopting three little Sudanese orphans. He lives in a mud hut. He performs up to 50 operations a day. And this guy, who's a devoted fall of Christ, said, you know, when Jesus said care for the hurting, he wasn't kidding. That's good. Wow. I really want to just randomly kind of, I want to shift gears towards AI because I feel like it's very prevalent right now. I have a lot of interesting questions on it. I want to know you all's take. Do you, I mean, do you guys think AI is dangerous for society? I don't just mean like, oh, AI is going to take someone's job or some or financially. Do you think AI is dangerous for the soul? The positive side of AI is it's actually growing our understanding of archaeology and discovery of archaeology in Israel and outside of Israel as well, where we can control different forms of technology to find, I mean, supposedly it's less than 1% we've found archaeologically when it comes to the Old Testament. And AI is helping so much to find these different not only facts as well as discoveries. So I see that as the positive side of increasing our evidence for Christianity archaeologically. I see the negative side is the exactly transhumanism where the soul, an understanding of, hey, if you pull the plug on a robot versus pulling the plug on a human being, what's the difference? I think the difference is becoming very gray now. So if you start to get rid of the soul, if you start to get rid of truly what makes us identify as Christians and understanding we are creating the image of God, well now all the sudden consciousness, anything that comes from a robot potentially. Well, if you pull the plug on that, why not just pull the plug on a human being? So it goes right back to the first century. I mean, why in the world were hospitals started? Why was slavery upended? Why did women all of a sudden get actual value? Why did kids get value? Why did some Americans get value? The list goes on and on. It's because all of a sudden this radical doctrine of all are creating the image of God came around and boom, people got objective value and worth. But we see in our land today, if that starts to fade, America is in a lot of trouble. And that's why Stalin himself said, America will not break or bend even from the outside. The only way America will go down is from the inside. And that's if those who are creating the image of God, that doctrine goes away. What do you think AI is doing to people's mental health? A lot of bad stuff. Yeah. I mean, I really respect right now, even even the left. I mean, I respect the right and the left. I'm not gonna get political here. But there was a law just passed in California in your state about those with social media and different forms of AI that cannot be used until after the age of 16. Like I respect that because we're seeing the raising rates of depression, anxiety, even bipolar are so intimately connected with a screen, with a robot. Anything that is not connected to a human being, we are created not to be lonely, created for relationship and AI is tearing that apart. Where you can just hang out by yourself and supposedly get all the joy and happiness in the world just from doing that. But we know you lose your human side. So it's gonna cause serious issues mentally and spiritually. So read a couple studies and in one study, it said recently three out of 14s have had an AI companion. And then another study said one in five adults have chatted with an eight with a romantic AI partner. What did those studies kind of make you think of in regards to society's loneliness, dating, romanticism? I mean, does that make you, what does that, what does that make you think? I just look at, you're going to stay in New York City tonight. And I was just talking to a guy whose wife left him just to sleep with a bunch of men. And he said, he goes into the city. And it's just a gigantic meat market. And there's something called apocalyptic sex that was written about in the New York Times by an atheist. But that atheist said that related to that good question, people are looking to connect with a transcendent source through something like sex or through something like a relationship with a robot. Because you can get sex any old time you want in that regard. And so people are looking to fulfill their greatest desires, this God-shaped hole with things like AI, with things like just sex with any partner you can possibly find. And yet it's apocalyptic sex. It's apocalyptic relationships where you can never fill that God-shaped hole. So if even atheists are saying this, I think there's something to that. You know, I think it's so I know so many people that'll be like, oh I don't know what to do. Let me ask chat GPT. Or, you know, and let me ask this AI, you know, how I should respond to this scenario or what about that. So I guess more so in the Christian space when it comes to pastors in particular, what do you guys think about pastors using AI? Once again, this is nothing new in the industrial revolution. Machines took the place of human beings. A lot of jobs were canceled. The invention of movies. I mean, used for good and used for evil. The coming of the internet. People can use the internet for good. They can use it for evil. And now AI, the same thing. People can use it for good and people can use it for evil. Loneliness is nothing new. God saw that man was alone. God saw that was not good and God created a woman to be a suitable helper for man. So loneliness is a result of our separating ourselves from God. And it takes different forms in different ages, but it's essentially the same. One of my heroes teaches at MIT. Her name is Roslyn Picard. And she uses AI to help suffering families to help find cures for some pretty warped, warped diseases. So you can use AI to do a lot of good and you can use AI to do a lot of evil. I mean, money's not evil, but how many people in our culture use money to replace God? Sex is not evil. It's God created it. But how many people use sex to replace God? A career is good. Power is good. But how many people use career and power to replace God? It's tragic. It's idolatry. So it doesn't matter what form it takes. Idolatry is idolatry. Allowing some other object to fill the God shape vacuum at the center of my being is something that we human beings have gotten rather good at over the years. Do we have to be careful? We as followers of Christ, absolutely yes. And that's why James writes so clearly, if any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God to give generously to all without finding fault and it will be given to them. So we need a lot of wisdom to know how to handle AI. You talked about the God size vacuum and people's heart. Like the big, you know, only God can fill the hole in anyone's heart. And a lot of people find that in identity, whether they identify with, you know, AI, they have an AI companion or even when it comes to gender, sexuality, whatever it may be. Why do you guys think that gender is such a big issue right now? Why do you think people struggle with gender identity and stuff like that right now? Like, you know, if a man says, I think I'm a woman trapped in a man's body or vice versa, man says, well, I was born this way or whatever. Why do you think gender is such a big issue? Well, I think in the 1970s, you had a lot of these laws and policies put in place that had to do with sex ethics, gender, and a lot of opening doors for gross practices, let's just say. And I think you've just seen the fallout from that. And one historian did a study of countries that have basically just had massive breakdown and fallen apart. And he studied about 40 different countries. And he charted how within 90 years, if these certain policies are put in place related to sex, ethics, gender, and beyond, within 90 years, that country will fall apart and be taken over by another nation. And so it makes me think of Psalm 106, for example, if you don't obey God and you don't put in his precepts and keep his precepts in place, then a nation that you despise will take over you completely. Go! For me, I think the gender issue is just the spice of the day. I don't think it'll last, and yet I think it's, it's again, it was spawned from poor decisions in the 1970s that we've seen this slippery slope where people want to find identity in any and everything that really suits them, and if they can join a crowd by doing so, and they feel accepted, because typically it's the ones who are bullied, it's typically the ones who feel isolated and lonely. But if they can find a crowd where they feel accepted, they're doing whatever they want in terms of their gender. It's like, once one guy I counseled years ago, who we walked around this 88 acre property for hour, maybe plus, strong atheist, but he was transitioning to a woman, and I said, "Oh, why are you doing that?" "Oh, because my friends are doing it." And I said, "You're just doing that because your friends are doing it?" And he said, "Yeah, of course, let's try it out. We'll see what happens." And it kind of reminds me of Katy Perry, I kissed a girl and I liked it. It's just all about this. I'm going to try whatever, whenever, anytime to see if I enjoy it. And so I think that's where we were at with a lot of the gender stuff. I was born gay. I'm a man trapped in a woman's body. I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, phrases that I've been hearing quite frequently, especially in Los Angeles. I hear that quite often. How should Christians respond to people when they make a claim like that? For me, the issue is getting more and more simple. It's really an issue of control. I want to be in control of my life, which means I'm going to define my identity. I must be in control. But once again, you go back to the Garden of Eden. It's exactly part of Adam and Eve's problem. We must be in control. He's not going to trust God to define good and evil. We're going to define good and evil. Even Judas is scary. Jesus, you are not meeting my stereotype of Messiah. Therefore, I'm going to betray you for 30 pieces of silver. I will be in control. So so much of this, from my perspective, is moral relativism, relativism in general. There's no such thing as truth. We just create truth in our heads. And, you know, to think about it, I really want to be in control. So I'm going to control everything that I can. And here's what's really fascinating for me to watch. You know, I can't control death. Oh, shoot. I cannot control death. So maybe what I'll do is I'll trivialize death. And I'll say, you know, death is just a stage of life. Parallelsus is just a stage of exercise, baloney. Parallelsus is not a stage of exercise. It's the end of exercise. And I can promise you, death is not a stage of life. And yet if I'm going to be in control and I'm all of a sudden confronted by something that I really cannot control my own death, then I better minimize it, trivialize it in order to dismiss it in order to run away from it. It's phenomenal when you watch human beings. And when I watch myself, how we long to be in control. And I'm think that being control of whether I'm male or female or both, you know, that's thrilling. The same way, I'm in control of how I express my sexuality in any way that I want. And that's a pathway to destruction. It's a pathway to futility. It's a pathway to death. So you just mentioned when it comes to death, that's something you can control. I'm thinking of this guy named Brian Johnson and he is this absolute health nut guy. He's just all over it and he will do hours of therapy or take care of his body just before he starts his day, like two hours, three hours or something. And he made this claim where he was like, I want to live forever. And that's just like another fashion of, you know, how do I mean, I think he's probably like, maybe the first guy that's trying to ever do that other than like the rumors of like Walt Disney. But you know, I guess you said something that was so interesting to me when someone says, I was born gay or I, you know, I feel like a man trapped in a woman's body. Those seem like hard questions, but you said it with that end a moment before. You said, well, I actually think it's quite simple. So if the answer is simple or the roots of the issues are just simple problems that are taking different forms over different ages, different centuries, I guess. How do we remain? It can be hard to see that it's the same issue sometimes when it, you know, pops up in a new fashion. You know, what do you mean you can change your gender? What do you mean that you were born? You know, I, because when someone says I was born gay, I personally, I'm like, I can't relate. I've never had that attraction. So like, I don't, I don't know what that means. But it can be kind of hard to stay focused on that. How do you stay focused on the root issue rather than the crowd noise of new problem in the 21st century or new problem to come in the 22nd century, 23rd century, whatever it may be? How do you stay focused on the root? Man, I was going back to first Corinthians and I mean, whenever Paul talks about things like I care very little, what anybody else says about me, I don't even care what I say about me. It's only what God says about me that matters. Favorite verse right there. It's like a life verse when it comes to this very issue because everybody wants to fall into what is the crowd saying at this time, whether it's my sexual identity or political identity, there's the top two right now, those are that are being deified, that are defining people. Or am I, what am I saying about myself? And it's like with therapy, you're supposed to feel shame about your shame, which is if I'm feeling shame, you should feel guilty about feeling shame because you should never feel shame. It's all positive psychology and building you up. And the more you build yourself up, well, obviously, the more narcissistic you're going to be in the more, the idea of forgiveness is going to fade. And so the more you have Christianity pushed out, the idea of forgiveness is absurd. I'm going to struggle with this at my church when people have come up to me and said, hey, that person kind of dissed me in this way. I'm done with them for life, right? Stuart? Like wrong. What? They're going to hurt us that thing, but they're falling prey to our culture and that's exactly where it's at. And so I think to stay rooted and grounded, you need to find verses, passages and be deep in prayer in order to continue to remove, really renew your identity daily. And you know, I have a bunch of little kids and this is what we talk about almost every car ride to school identity. It's not about underage drinking, obviously. It's not about sex. It's not about these things. It's literally who are you and God? Who are you and Christ? And does it matter what the bully says? Does it matter what your own thoughts are saying about you or not? You know, one thing that's really popular, I think right now, but also in LA is new age practice, whether it's astrology, tarot cards, maybe weegee board, maybe occult stuff, whatever it may be. Do you guys think that the new age movement is demonically organized or just people that are spiritually confused? New age is essentially monism, Hinduism, in just an Western form. New age essentially says everything is one. Everything is part of spirituality, God is part of everything, everything's part of God. And the attractiveness of that is specifically, I get to define who God is then according to my own biases, my own prejudices, my own wants and desires. But once again, it ties into who or what is going to be the foundation of your life. And at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus makes it real clear. You hear my teachings and don't put them into practice. You're like a fool who built his house on sand. You hear my teachings and put them into practice, you're like a wise man who built his house on the rock. All you got to do is you got to start reading the Bible carefully. I would encourage you to read first Timothy. Young man Timothy, pastoring a church in Ephesus, okay, what was the cultural milieu of Ephesus? Diana of the Ephesians, a goddess, was worshipped. When you went to the temple of Diana of the Ephesians, it was ruled by some women who were virgins essentially. And they had the power, those women. Then under them were some men who were celibate, they were eunuchs. And then under them were some prostitutes, a lot of prostitutes. And so Timothy is trying to figure out how on earth do I build the church of Jesus Christ in this kind of messed up culture? And so it's absolutely fascinating to watch the Apostle Paul be very in tune with a culture that is protégé, Timothy is ministering in and begin to remind Timothy of the basics. The Bible teaches God created, not gods, not creation is God, pantheism, God. Eternal being in the beginning, God said, let there be light. So God created Timothy and God is not whatever you create him and God is not mother earth and God is not Diana of the Ephesians, God is Yahweh Jehovah, I am who I am. And then when it comes to sexuality, Timothy, God created his male and female and said for this reason, a man shall leave his father, be united to his wife and the two shall become one flesh. So Paul is mentoring Timothy and teaching him, come on Timothy, let's stick with the scriptures, let's stick with what God has revealed is true. And yet Timothy is having to do that in a messed up culture. No different from today. That kind of reminds me, Paul in Acts chapter 18 goes today. Aero Pegas and he's kind of, they're worshiping like this guy that they don't have a name for. And my buddy David and I were talking about how different religions, whether it's Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Islam, they have a shadow of Christ, but they don't have the fullness. Whether it be like, oh, you know, Muslims pray more than a lot of Christians do sometimes. They fast a lot more than Christians do. Okay, there's a shadow or a fragment of morality that pertains to, yeah, we should fast for the Lord. We should, we should pray to Jesus Christ, all these things, but it's like a shadow of it, not the fullness of it. But in regards to, you know, I mentioned, do you think it's demonically organized or spiritually, or people that are spiritually confused? Let's talk about the demonic for a second, because I think that's something that maybe in the West, we don't talk about as much. Whereas I have friends or pastor friends that will go to South Africa or something, they go visit. And in these villages, they have names for demons. And they have, oh, yeah, we all see the same demon in our sleep or we see this. And so, you know, sometimes you hear that or that maybe some of the demonic attack that people experience in the East is completely different than the West. You know, I think Satan uses entertainment here in the West, whereas in the East, the enemy is more physical in front of them, people trying to kill them. Satan is in our mind. That was so interesting, the underground church. And one of actually, I don't think it was the Iran one of the underground churches had said that they believe that we have it worse than they do in the East because our enemy is in the mind. And there's this one that they can see so they can run and hide. And we can't, which I thought was fascinating. But in regards to the demonic, do you guys think Christians can be demon possessed? No, greater is he who is in you than the one who's in the world. And I think we take that seriously. I have seen a lot when it comes to those who are being oppressed, but never, never one who's being possessed, who's strong in the Lord. And when I was in Haiti, for example, the amount of Christians, the amount of joy that people had. And like you said, the devil was out there. There's so much voodoo going on in Haiti, it's scary. And yet, how Christians are seeing it out there versus in here is very impressive to me. So how do you tell the difference between a demonic attack or demonic oppression versus mental health struggle, mental illness, something like that? Yeah, it's very difficult. It's always combined. It's wedded. I think Mary Magdalene, obviously, struggled with many demons. prostitute, many demons. But then at the same time, I think there was a level of mental health issues there in terms of the identity switch. I think obviously Christ met her where she was at. But that identity switch, I guarantee you, there was some kind of mental issue going on. Secondly, there's this term kissed by the moon in the Greek that some commentators have pulled out. It may be a stretch, but basically kissed by the moon, they would say is, you know, in Mania, Mania gets way higher, whether it's depressed, but usually it's it's the manic highs when there's a full moon. It's basically this Greek scholar is saying a lot of these spiritual possessions that you see in the gospels. What's going on there is it's actually a mental health issue and Jesus was way ahead of his time and so are the gospel writers in talking about it. I don't know for a fact if that's true, but that's a really interesting idea nonetheless. So when I typically am with a person, I will always look for the mental psychological piece first and then we'll pray and we'll go through a different checklist. So I always have possession at the very end, but I never rule it out. I don't have the gift of, let's just say deliverance, but I have friends who do, but I always put that at the end because people want to put that at the beginning and it scares the crap out of them, and it makes the mental health issue even worse. And so I'll regret my grandpa, for example, when he hit a serious psychosis, he was very high up internationally in the 7th Amitus Church, and all the others came around and said, "Hey, you're leading thousands. Of course you don't have a mental health issue. This is just a little bit of spiritual wrestling." So let's pray it out. All right, well, he had a bed behind his office chair because the depression got so bad that he had to lay down all the time. Finally, a good friend came up to him and said, "Hey, let's try some medication just once." And he did boom, gone. And so you could have said, "Hey, Amelia, why didn't you get some forward deliverance?" I mean, yes, you're a Christian, but maybe we could have tried it. But he didn't do that, I think, because he was a man of prayer. He understood what was going on and eventually took the medication and that fixed him. So he lived many more years to do incredible ministry. You know, because a lot of people make entire ministries out of deliverance. A lot of people have deliverance ministries. And there's a CSL is quote where he says, "You don't think too little of the devil, but you don't think too much of the devil." Do you think there's a side to deliverance ministry that is harmful or unbiblical to a person, whether they've had a long Christian journey or not? Do you think there's a side to deliverance ministry that's harmful or unbiblical? Yes, if deliverance ministry means we are not going to get medical help to do our psychological sickness, that's tragic. I can promise you if I break my arm, I will pray, Lord, heal me, but it'll be on the way to the hospital so that the doctor can put a cast on my arm and help heal my broken arm. But when it comes to the psychological, I'm afraid that too many Christians are out of touch with reality and they reduce everything to a spiritual problem. No, we are very complex human beings. We have the spiritual, we have the emotional, we have the physical, we have the psychological, we are complex and to reduce all of our problems to one simple issue, be it the spiritual or be it the physical is a very partial, very very bifurcated, very ignorant view of the human being. We are complex and that is why followers of Christ have been at the forefront of communicating Christ through missions, but they've also gone out and built hospitals and clinics to help heal the broken bodies and broken minds of people. We're all born broken. Life is about healing. The grace of God is the glue and fortunately, a gracious God has given us rational minds that we can use to do good medicine and to find good cures to very physical sickness. If you ever heard the quote, God gives his toughest battles to his strongest soldiers. I always laugh out loud when I hear that because like people will say that and it's like, you know, they hit every red light on the way to their work and they're like, man, it got spiritual warfare. That's such a first world problem. But in regards to spiritual warfare, what does actual spiritual warfare look like today? Oh, I think it was what we were talking about earlier for especially spiritual leaders, but any Christian, money, sex and power. And we just saw another Christian leader that I really looked up to for the majority of his books. He's a devotional guy too. He's not like a big apologist or one of these who's mainly just speaking, right? Because oftentimes you see those guys fall all the time. This guy was like a devotional writer and incredibly prolific, but he fell. He's hadn't been having an affair for four years. So what do you do? You say, why are so many falling and obviously the demonic has a huge part to deal with it, to do with it. And the money, sex and power issues, I think are the ones that demons play off the most. And you look at Billy Graham and his crusade. The only reason why he basically was the only one who did not fall, who was at that size, I would say, is because they put a policy in place that they kept to and promised and struck a covenant over in order to deal with money, sex and power because they knew the spiritual strength. The manifesto. Yes, exactly. And so you know the sex piece was you can never be alone with a woman in a room. The power piece was you're not going to count your numbers and inflate them. And then money, sex, power, the money pieces, you're never going to count the money. Well, he wouldn't put a TV in his room. Right. And then I think I heard a story one time. I can't remember. So I could be totally wrong where someone would walk in his room before him. And like just in case someone happened to be in there. And I heard a story. This could be totally wrong. But I heard it through someone where someone had walked in his room to check before him and a reporter jumped out with a camera and someone naked. Someone naked had planned to jump on them and they capture a picture. Wow. But they jumped on the person and not Billy Graham. I don't know if that's true. I heard it somewhere. I'm going to that now that they came on, I'm going to look it up when we get done. But if that is true, that's some people would think, Oh, that's such an extreme example. Like, what do you mean you would let someone walk in your hotel room before you get in there? Right. But then for the sake of living above or approach, you know, not even staying away from even the appearance of sin. It doesn't sound so crazy until it until it isn't. You know what I mean? I think it's so fascinating. But the manifesto is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Very fascinating. I know you guys, I know particularly Stuart, you're very fascinating with the near death experiences. And I feel like that they're pretty popular right now. How do you tell the difference between a biblical near death experience and a deceptive one? And I guess what I mean by that is I was just in Vegas last week and there's homeless people that live in the tunnels underground. They have tunnels for the rain water when it rains. And the sky said that he was dead on the ground for 30 minutes, but it was just as if he had went to sleep and woke up. And then sometimes you go into the hospital and you hear people say, oh, I see my mom calling me home to heaven or someone say, oh, I see an angel. up here. I mean, our, I mean, our near death experiences really reliable. So many people have so many different things to say about them. What do you guys think? I can promise you, I'm looking forward to seeing my seven year old niece who died at the age of seven. I'm looking forward to seeing the little granddaughter who died just before she was born into this world. And I'm looking forward to seeing them not because I've heard about some near death experiences. I think we've got to be skeptical. And I don't think that there's enough evidence from near death experiences to base any type of confidence that we're going to have life after death because they're near death experiences. Instead, I am confident I'm going to see them one day because the dead Jesus rose from the dead and the resurrected Lord said, I am the resurrection in the life he believes in me will live even though he dies. And that Jesus took little children in his arms and blessed them and loved them. So I think it's fascinating to study near death experiences, but the number of people who have talked to me about it and the number of people who've written about it, I think it's pretty nebulous. This whole idea that we're all going to go towards the light. And it really doesn't matter what you've done in your life, it doesn't matter what you believe. When you die, we all go to the light and everything's equally true. So just embrace it, will you? No, I'm sorry, Jesus contradicts that. And my observation of reality is, no, we're not all the same. And we all believe different things and we all live different type of lives. And if there is no day of judgment, then it really doesn't matter what you do with your life and life is ultimately meaningless. How kind it was of Jesus to point out, no, there's coming a day of judgment when I'm going to have to answer to God for what I've done with my life, for what I've done with Christ, have I put my faith in trust in Him or have I not? And I will have to answer for that. And no, we're not all just going to the light. No, we're not. Some of us are going to be with Christ for eternity and have it. And others of us are going to be separate from Christ for eternity. And that will be hell. So in regards to hell, how do you explain eternal conscious suffering without making God sound harsh? Follow us to Christ or equally committed to Christ and to the Scriptures, disagree when it comes to exactly what hell is like. And I would argue the Bible never gives us a photograph of either hell or heaven. And therefore, I think it's intellectually dishonest to try and paint a picture that's too specific because we've never been to heaven. We've never been to hell. So we depend upon God to reveal what heaven will be like and what hell will be like. I wish personally that God had revealed more details, but He hasn't. And therefore, I've got to be humble enough to say, I don't know, but to stick with what He has revealed. Now, hell is described as outer darkness and fire. How do you have outer darkness and fire? Obviously, I think that's metaphorical speech, symbolic speech. We read about that hell was prepared for the devil and his demons. That's what Jesus taught. In light of the fact that the devil and his demons do not have physical bodies, how physical is hell going to be? I don't know. But what I do know is that hell is going to be so horrible that Jesus Christ bled and died on a cross to barricade our paths to hell, to forgive us and to give us eternal life in heaven. So that's how I basically. The eternal conscious suffering piece, though, you go right to Luke 16, the rich man in Lazarus, the rich man does not want to get out. And so I think it's actually not God being too harsh. It's God being, if anything, too loving, because He's allowing truly this rich man to rule in hell rather than serve in heaven. And He just continues ruling and does whatever He wants. He's made his identity clearly wealth. It's definitely not God. He didn't want to give his identity over in any kind of sense. And so God is just allowing him to continue. And from a psychological perspective, somebody who gets caught up too much so in something like wealth, physically and emotionally, they deteriorate and yet they continue to be a slave to it. That's the weirdest part about money, right? And so this rich man, that's what he's just continuing to go along with and being okay with it, even though he doesn't want his relatives to come. So he realizes it's a bad thing. But I think the eternal conscious suffering piece is very similar to addiction. It just goes on and on and a big part of you enjoy it. But at the same time, you want to get out. It's this weird type of tension. But eventually you just get caught in it and continue with it. You know, you said that I saw a video clip of you. You mentioned the Luke 16 a while ago and it always stuck with me. You pointed about how Lazarus didn't ask to be taken out of hell. You said that he just asked for God to save his family, but he doesn't ask to be taken out of it. And you would think if you're suffering and it was so bad, why would you ask for a quick moment of satisfaction, a dip on the tongue versus getting saved out of hell? You mentioned that like a while ago in a video clip and I saw that it's always stuck out to me. And I've always wondered that because you would think, well, if you're suffering and hell and it's so bad, why wouldn't you just ask, hey, take me out versus I quit my tongue. I just thought it was so weird. I think you still knew what the alternative would be though, right? It would be heaven. There's no purgatory. There's no waiting place. It's one or the other. So he knew he'd have to be serving. So he'd still rather suffer in his leadership role, but still be in so much pain than serve. So how do you have a healthy reverence for eternity, heaven and hell instead of just being scared? Well, I think it's put forward very clearly in the Scriptures. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That does not mean trepidation. It means awe. So I understand in such awe of God that I don't suffer from other fears too much. We're all going to be afraid. I certainly struggle with fear and I struggle too much with fear to tell you the truth. But as I grow in my awe of God, in my fear of God, then my other fears begin to fade away. So I think that's crucial to start with the fear of the Lord. Second point, well, who is the Lord? He's the eternal God. Whoa, eternal. Wow. No beginning, no end, eternal. Incredible. Then the third point you move on from there, Christ promises us eternal life. Oh, that's going to be boring, Cliff. Come on. You got to have good and evil to make life exciting. You've got to be kidding me. I don't need death to make life exciting. I don't need child sex trafficking to make life exciting. I don't need drones bombing Ukrainians and bombing Russians to make life exciting. And I don't need Hamas to try and wipe the Jewish people off the planet to have excitement. No, life is good when it's lived God's way. And in heaven, I'm going to enjoy getting to know Christ better and better, getting to know people better and better. That's exciting. And God has such a big personality, such a big character. And people are so deep and profound that throughout eternity, we'll be getting to know God better, we'll be getting to know each other better. Our love will be deepening and growing for each other, we'll be able to serve each other to help each other, we'll be able to produce that which is good. So I can promise you the last thing that heaven will be is boring. It'll be tremendously exciting and it will be for eternity. Hey, quick break. Let me tell you about today's sponsor upside. Gas, groceries, and eating out are three things we all know add up fast. Even on the tightest budget, there's no escaping them. But here's what you can control. 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To find out how much you could earn, download the free upside app and use promo code Bryce to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. That's an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas using promo code Bryce. All right, now back to the episode. Shifting gears a little bit to Islam, which right now across the globe, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Now, in regards to Christianity, I mean, the past year and a half, two years, particularly in America, Christianity is on the upper eyes, right? Church attendance, the skyrocketing, Bible sales are skyrocketing, young people are turning back to the faith. A lot of young men are turning to the faith. But from a global perspective, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Why do you guys think that is? I think they do a great job with community, and I think they do a great job with fervency, and I think they do a great job with routine. I think those three pieces are what really push Islam, but generalitivities, the number one, they just have somebody kids. True. They do have a lot of kids. So do Mormons, Mormons have a lot of kids too. That's why it was the fastest growing religion not too long ago, but then they fell off, I think, because the magic underwear, the magic underwear, that's so funny. So, you know, through the years of interactions with Muslims or Muslim conversations, whether they're on college campuses or through Zoom or whatever it may be, what is something that Muslims get wrong about Christianity? Muslims get a lot of things wrong about Christianity. They get the Trinity wrong. Jesus insisted that there is one God. He repeated the Shmav Israel, a hero Israel Lord our God is one, but then he went ahead and talked about his father being God. He claimed to be God himself and he talked about the Holy Spirit as being God. So that's a fundamental error. Secondly, Muslims have profound respect for Jesus. In fact, my Muslim friends believe more about Jesus than the typical American does. My Muslim friends believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, ascended to heaven, and is coming back a second time. Whoa! How many Americans believe all of that? Precious few. So they believe a tremendous amount about Jesus, but they fail to acknowledge his deity. They fail to acknowledge his death on a cross because their convinced God would never allow such a great prophet like Jesus to be crucified on a cross, and therefore because he's not crucified on a cross because he doesn't die because instead he ascends to heaven, obviously the resurrection didn't take place from Muslim. And yet the eyewitness account is very clear. Jesus claimed to be God, he claimed to die a sacrificial death on the cross, and three days later he physically, bodily rose from the dead. So those are the fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity. So you guys have been doing campus stuff for a while, and I know Cliff, we talked about it at the very beginning, 45 years of campus ministry, and you guys have been doing it along together. But a lot of people may or may not, I mean in the community where you guys live, but maybe outside they may not know that you guys are pastors. You guys lead a church and the Bible consistently warns us in the last days that there will be wolves and sheep's clothing that false teachers will arise, that people will turn to false doctrine that scratches their ears and tickles their ears and stuff that they want to hear. Do you guys believe pastors preach softly or preach different things for the sake of keeping people in the church seats or keeping people, is that something that you guys have seen frequently just not, I don't just mean to people that you know, I just mean from a broad perspective of being leaders of churches just in general, whether nationwide or globally. Is that a common theme that you guys are seeing now, people strang a little bit more from the truth for the sake of keeping butts and seats? Oh yeah, it's so fast. I have a mainline church has gone so far left, theologically. So I will genuinely have somebody come to me and say, "Hey, Stuart, I don't believe in the historical resurrection anymore," and I believe the sex ethics are way too tight in our church. So I'm going to go over here to this mainline church just because it's more comfortable. It's not to wrestle with these issues. And so what's so interesting is these mainline churches, a lot of them, majority of them probably make these decisions doctrically because they want to get more cheeks in the seats, more nickels and noses. What's odd though, is those churches are struggling across the nation. So talk about the Holy Spirit, having a genuine impact, it's the ones that are remaining true to the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' deity, the resurrection. It's the ones that are remaining true to those that are growing like wildfire. So I clearly believe that it's the Holy Spirit doing that and people want that rather than just this mushy kind of, "Oh, come join us for a Sunday. This Sunday we're going to be worshiping to Elton John and we don't know what's going to be next." So legitimately they're trying and that kind of way to people get people in, but they're just failing in it. The Holy Spirit is acting in a powerful way to those who are staying true, like you said, to the scriptures, even though it is offensive to so many. So how can a church drift into false teaching on the other end of the spectrum, right? Because there's got to be a space where those guys consciously know we may avoid these certain topics to keep people in here. We only may talk about positive stuff because we don't want to talk about hell or sin or whatever it may be, or they might just flat out teach heresy or something incorrect because they want more people to come in. On the other end of the spectrum, maybe there's people that accidentally drift in the false teaching without knowing. How is that possible? Is that even possible? Is it possible for a church to drift into false teaching without even knowing? Or is that more of a conscious decision? Well, it's simple. Just don't read the Bible. Of course you're going to drift into error if you don't read the Bible. If you don't read the Bible, you're just going to basically do making it up, ripping it off the wall, and being creative. What's fascinating for me is to watch the influence of not science, but the philosophy of science on Christianity in America. Obviously, a lot of ministers have a real problem with miracles. Come on, you don't believe Jesus physically rose from the dead. He spiritually rose from the dead. Come on, you don't believe Jesus actually walked on water. And Jesus just knew where the stones were. And why do you have to teach that? Well, because we live in such a scientific, technologically-advanced culture, a nation that you can't expect educated people to think that Jesus took five loaves and two fish and fed a crowd of over 5,000. Come on, that's totally unrealistic. And so people, including ministers, including seminaries, are intimidated by this philosophy of science that mocks the supernatural, mocks therefore the miraculous. Obviously, there's no God, there's no such thing as a miracle. But if there is a God, then miracles are not irrational, they're not unscientific. Instead, miracles are our statement. The natural law is real. And the reason we call this a miracle is because it doesn't naturally happen. That's why we call it a miracle. Because left to itself, the natural laws will not permit that to happen. But a miracle is a statement. There is the natural world, the natural law created by an intelligent mind, God. But then there's also the hand of God that steps into, that reaches into the natural world. And changes add something that we call a miracle. It does not naturally happen. It happens because there's a supernatural hand that is introduced, that changes what you and I would expect into a miracle. I kind of want to shift gears a moment to money. You guys mentioned earlier, money isn't inherently sinful. One of my favorite phrases that I've heard both you guys share is money is amor, it has no feeling, thoughts or emotions. So you can't just say, "Oh, money's inherently sinful," right? It says that's the love of money when you love your money more than God. But for Christians in particular, let me even dial the question even more. Is it wrong for a Christian leader to be rich? What's rich? How do you define rich? You see, you got to be real careful with your approach to that issue. The way you deal with greed is very simple. Be generous, give money away. How much would you live on? I don't know. Jesus doesn't answer that question, Paul doesn't answer that question. But they do talk on awful lot about generosity. And if I find it difficult to give money away, then I better do some soul searching, I better cry out to Christ for help, and I better learn to just practically give money away. And it's real simple, Christ. Just think. You walk by a father or a mother with a starving child in their lap. You say, "Oh, I believe in Jesus. God bless you. Good day, and you keep on walking." You're a flaming hypocrite. We have the solution to starvation, it's called money. It's called give money, buy food, and get that food, pass corrupt governments into the mouths of starving children in the name of Jesus Christ. That's genuine faith. And Matthew chapter 25, the parable of the sheep and the goats is a rather stark statement that Jesus makes. I was hungry, you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty, you gave me nothing to drink. I was naked and imprisoned and you never visited me. The point being, these people are created in the image of God. They have just as much value as you and I do. Therefore, a heart of compassion, a heart changed by the love of God is going to do something to solve the problem of starving babies. So maybe let's not list a dollar amount, let's say, there's an account on Instagram called Preachers with sneakers and it'll zoom in on a pastor's shoes and then it'll be like a pastor's shoes and then they'll throw up a picture next to it of the shoe and the name and what the price tag on the shoe is or another popular one is with watches, right? So better be on lookout for that Ironman watch you got on your wrist clip because that is the Ironman watch, 40 bucks, the Walmart Ironman watch, it'll be like someone zooms in on $50,000 Rolex on this pastor or Gucci shoes, someone's got on the Gucci shoes or the $2,000 jacket or whatever it may be. Maybe it's not necessarily wrong to have those things but more so my question is when is it wrong for something to be a hobby that you enjoy and when it becomes an, you know, an idol in your life, let's say for example, yeah, just when does, when does collecting or owning items go from, oh, this is something that I enjoy for fun to, my treasure is maybe on earth instead of heaven. I think I think it's a lot of soul searching to get to that place of really knowing. It takes a lot of reading the proverbs to get to the place of real wisdom and knowing that something like money can be connected to passions which ultimately rots the bones. I mean, think about, I love this Village Voice article, this woman knew Sylvester Solone and many other celebrities and how they thought when they would get money and fame that that would solve other issues and that they'd become happy and she said that they became more negative, less happy, and more angry as soon as they got back. that fame and wealth. So I think for us to look at it and say, not just, hey, this could be a temptation. Hey, where could this money really go to now? But also, hey, I could save this for the next generation and opportunities they could have by doing so. And then being aware of the needs around you in terms of the poor. But the piece truly on looking at money and saying, I'm going to make as much as I can, save as much as I can, and give a way as much as I possibly can, is what every Christian should aim for. At the same time though, the traditional approach that I've always been exposed to on the East Coast is you, Bryce, should be living with your family under an overpass in a slum. And you should be getting paid minimum wage. All right. So that traditional approach is embarrassing to me. How is that biblical? I mean, a worker who has worked his wages. It's pretty clear. There are a joe in the Bible who are quite wealthy. So that type of idea is an embarrassing one because a lot of people, a lot of spiritual leaders have been dragged through the mud and been pushed out of ministry because of that traditional thought. So that's the other end of the spectrum. But I think hobbies are a great thing. I think God created us with passions, with desires and wants to be a good gift giver to us. And in response, we become good gift givers as well. So I think we can love hobbies, love great things, but then continue to do that soul searching in prayer. So when you say the soul searching, that's just kind of, you know, it may be different for everyone. You know, like what? Someone's capacity for whether it's a dollar amount or a watch collection or, you know, whatever it may be, may be different than someone over here. I guess that label that, the label I hear for what you just described about, you have to live under the overpass of the slum, like a poverty mindset almost. And sometimes I've ran into people over particularly at a coworker when I was 18 that didn't believe in God hated when I brought up Jesus, but would say I would believe in God if he gives me money, but he was always a bad steward of his money. And so I would be like, man, like that's like the total opposite of the spectrum of what you're at, someone who has a money problem. It's like you always think the guy with a lot of money has the money problem. But then I'm like, I'm like, Mitch might add a problem when I was 18, but you know, that's interesting. Something that he had a problem with in particular was he would buy, he would tell me, he would tell me to split our tips at lunch. And we still had six more hours of work left. And I could keep whatever else came in that six hours. So that he could go buy a scratch off ticket from across the street. And so this kind of enters into the realm of gambling. And I wanted to ask you guys about gambling. Is gambling a sin? Yes, gambling is a sin. Why? It's trivializing money. You can worship money, and that's wrong. But you can also trivialize it. Why is gambling trivializing money? Because you're playing with money as an object as a thing. Money represents work, work done, hopefully work done well and work done honestly. God gave us the ability to work. God gave us the ability to make money. And one of the two commandments is you shall not steal. You're going to respect a person enough to respect their property, to respect their money and not steal from them. So when you respect God and when you respect people, you will respect the possessions, the money that another person has and work leads to making money. And that is good. We're to work hard. And that's why Paul writes, if you don't work, you're not going to eat guys. We're not just going to have handouts that the church is going to get involved in. If you're going to be lazy son of a gun and not work, then you're not going to eat. So there's a tremendous tie in the Bible between work and money. And that's why I'm convinced that gambling is wrong. Also, gambling is a horrible example of taking advantage of the poor, taking advantage of the uneducated. Not only that, when you study people who gamble, it becomes clear that it leads to domestic violence when a lot of guys bet on a ballgame or an NFL game and they lose their team loses. The way domestic violence rises as these men can't handle their anger because their team lost a ballgame and they take it out on their wife and kids, that is absolutely tragic. So no, gambling is saying it's wrong. And I would encourage everybody to repent and to turn away from gambling. You just told just about every single Gen Zer that they are sinning currently right now. Yeah, anyway, it's going to be a prize picks ban on a new football company. So I got some more hypothetical. So the reason that it's on my mind is because me and Dylan were talking about it drive over here just about for like 30 minutes in the car and we're making up all these hypothetical scenarios. I'm about to just fire them off because I think it's interesting. Imagine going home, eight of your buddies playing poker, $10 buy in just for fun for the sake of like hanging around is that sinful of like eight dudes around the table. You guys haven't seen each other in a while. And it's like, we just want to hang out and chat and we just want to do something. So we're going to play around a poker or $10 buy it. Like is that still sinful in regards to when I first, yeah, I personally believe it's the high stakes and consistency that is sinful. I would say once in a while, what sort of blue moon kind of thing, if it's low stakes and you're not really abusing that money, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's similar to alcohol. Alcoholism is in the DSM, right? Drinking a sip of alcohol or having one beer once a week is not in the DSM. Gambling addiction is in the DSM. That's high stakes gambling, which forms addictions, which poisons money. But the question becomes the you're beginning that kernel that root with alcohol, but especially with gambling, do you see a difference between the two? Well, I think you made a great connection between alcohol and gambling. Obviously, Jesus drank wine. Obviously, he turned large drums of water into wine. He was the life of the party in John chapter 2, but he stood against drunkenness. And so the type of game of playing around that you were talking about, Bryce, no, I don't think that's a sin, right? But it's, but it's really under control. What do I mean? Come on guys. Yeah. Look at our culture. Look at the casinos. Look at the amount of money that is being gambled. Please don't tell me that we don't have a gambling problem in our country. I mean, it is incredible. The amount of money that was gambled in the NFL in the NBA, if you throw a game, you pay players to do wrong things in order that you can make more money gambling. You just go to the casinos and watch these guys come out, the homeless people, the low-income people trying to make the big hit and get out of poverty. I mean, you were talking some serious, serious problems, but no, the type of little, all right, we're all going to play a little game around a table and not casting lots. What about casting lots? It seems like it's tied to gambling in some, in some ways. Casting lots in the Old Testament was clearly within the context of we are trusting God to guide us. We're not sure what to do. And so Lord, being controlled of these, of these lots that we're casting. I think that's radically different from I'm going to, I'm going to trust Mother Luck and I'm just going to cast lots and Mother Luck or Father Luck is going to be what I follow. I think there's a difference there. All right, another hypothetical, this is the opposite end of the extreme, seasoned world championship poker player. All right, like insanely good at poker, talking, playing in the world championship of poker, does it professionally is playing against people. It's like the kind of guy that you don't want to come over to the private little hang out, like just insanely good is competitive poker player. That's, we would say, I don't know, I'm throwing a hypothetical, but this is just how we're talking in the car. We're like, what about, okay, here's, here's the real example we gave, a Dana White, for example, absolutely just thoroughly wealthy guy. So for him, maybe playing $50,000 a hand to him is like nothing. But when we're talking about it in the car, like $50,000, you know how many people you can impact with $50,000. I think that's pretty crazy. Or you could, you know, use it in a different way or maybe pay for kids college or something, but you're, you know, you play, I don't know, we just use the example. Is it bad if a seasoned poker player or a really, really wealthy guy that to him $50,000, $100,000, just like the dollar bill you leave in your pocket that falls out of the washing machine, you know, is it like, is that sinful? Because it's high stakes, according to that idea. That's the whole problem with looking at somebody with serious wealth. Because the wealthy are always the ones who are resenting the poor and the poor are always the ones being jealous towards the wealthy. And so it's so easy to look at somebody in a mansion and say, oh, clearly that person's not giving away. But percentage wise, like you're saying with a Dana White percentage wise, they could be giving away way more than than you even, and you don't even realize it. Even though you think, no, no, that's impossible. How big the house is. So that's why it's be careful. I think with Jesus and Zacchaeus, clearly, Jesus did not tell him and he did not give away all of his money. It was a very high percentage, but it was not all of his money. So that's why I think it's a good question. But for me, it comes down to a heart motive, you know, just like when we're called to be generous to give away, it's not about the 10% is where the heart is. Ultimately, are you a joyful giver or are you giving out of obligation? And it's just like the women with the. woman with the two might, right? It was not the amount, it was the motive within the heart and the sacrifice to give everything. So I don't think the percentage is necessarily the important one, I think it's more of the heart issue. Come on guys, let's be honest. I hope nobody in this room were watching. Honestly, things, that the reason that these casinos are springing up all over the places, because people don't make a bunch of money off of them. Come on, guys. And when it comes to gambling, the house wins. And the home loses. That's true. The house wins. These guys who put these casinos together are not dumb. They're aimed to make money, guys. Yeah, they're really one of the EGM grand looks like a pyramid. It's a who built the pyramids. We don't know who built them. We don't know. Yeah, if you look at casinos that looks like a pyramid, you gotta be rolling in it. And I think actually, I'm just diving into conspiracy right now. I think Vegas's police is privately funded by the casinos too, which is actually insane. How's it impossible? They gotta be broken in it. Break it in it. You were fun in the police, that's crazy. Yeah, I don't know, I think I was good. But when you're studying how the home loses and the house wins, which you realize is families that are financially hurting get hurt more, and men get addicted to gambling. And they're abusive husbands, abusive fathers. It is scary. What's happening? And of course, we sweep that all on the little rug. But when you look at the statistics and at what happens, it is horrendous. It's destructive. You mentioned family right there at the end of that, hinting it on the topic of family. There's a lot of Gen Z that feels like they grew up without maybe father's present or mother's present. What does it do to human beings' view of God when they grow up without a father? I think the idea of a loving father who is God that we worship is very hard to actually accept. But when someone like that does accept a loving father, talk about the emotional, spiritual health that comes from it. I've seen some of that, and it has blown me away. But what I find interesting on the other end of the spectrum is you look at the biographies of the top 100 atheists over the last 100 years. They've all had daddy issues. So the father either abused them, took off or passed away when they were very young. So it points to the importance of a father and that we have a loving personal father who wants an unconditionally caring relationship with us is why a lot of Muslims turn away from Allah. And I hope and pray that more do as they find the real loving father. You know, he said that's one of the names that Allah doesn't have is that he's a father, which is very fascinating. Very good. That is very interesting. Speaking on marriage and just relationships within the family, why don't you guys believe the divorce rate is so high? When you remove God out of the picture, a relationship is based on your ability to bring me pleasure, your ability to bring me comfort, your ability to give me psychic fulfillment. And if you lose your ability to turn me on, give me psychic fulfillment, bring me comfort and pleasure. Why shouldn't I divorce you and go out and find somebody else who turns me on a little more? Let's not be stupid and stick with someone who's not giving me tremendous rushes. Let's go out and find different ones who can give me a rush. And the problem is that leads to profound loneliness because it condemns me to incredibly superficial relationships that are all based on your ability to please me. And if you please me, I'll stick with you. But if you lose your ability to please me, bye-bye, I'm outta here. - So on that topic in. I'm gonna try to phrase this not in like a maybe crude way, but I don't know if there's like really another way to phrase it, so I might have to be blunt. I've seen some perspectives online in the context of marriage. I've seen Christian opinion online before where people say it is okay to self-please yourself within a marriage. What is your guys' perspective on that? I've just seen some people online believe that. Some people say no, that's a hard no. I mean, we could talk about self-pleasure outside of marriage and I think people would unanimously agree across the board. Hey, you shouldn't do that. But in regards to the context of marriage, people saying, "Oh, within our marriage, this is something that we do." Is that a bad thing? Is that, I know that's such a random question, but. - That's typically connects to pornography. If they are pleasing themselves, just about everybody only pleases themselves to pornography these days. And so most likely it's both of them looking at porn together to figure out more sex practices. I am fully convinced though that they are enjoying those people on the screen for themselves. I do not think it's just because they're curious and they want to try it out. So I heard a sex therapist today say, "Oh yeah, at least once a month." That's very healthy for a marriage. You know, if you're doing it every single day, many times a day, "Oh yes, that's not good." That's a type of obsession that you don't want to get into. So it's very acceptable in our culture today, just like open marriages are. You know, I was at a party not too long ago. It was a Christmas party and I went there just to get some more herbs and a quick dance to my wife and friends. And we found out very quickly, we were basically within a huge orgy. And there were about a hundred people in there and they were all in open relationships. And any good looking woman was getting together with any bad looking guy because it was just an open thing that everybody just accepted. And I remember my buddy, his wife got a tap on the shoulder and it was a couple saying, "Hey, we wish we had you before he had you, but all of you guys are invited." And so the crazy thing is the self-pleasure, pornography, open marriages, at least on the East Coast, for what we're at, are so socially acceptable, to spicing up a marriage and your life, it's scary. What's odd though is the long-term statistics all point to massive breakdown and force. - Yeah, that's so interesting. I, is it like an upside down pineapple in the shop and card or something? It's like the sign. - At a rendezvous? - That is like such an odd thing, like why a pineapple? - Right. - It's so interesting. Speaking of marriage, I recently got married and I'm encouraged by you guys because, well, I think a lot of people are, a lot of young people are starting to get married now younger but also it's encouraging to see marriages that have lasted and gone the distance. And I really want to be a good leader, a good husband. What does it look like for a man to lead a household? - For a man to lead a household looks like serving. Jesus modeled servant leadership. A man leading a household is not me Tarzan Eugene. I'm the stud you're the servant, woman. - No, in Ephesians chapter five verse 20, Paul writes, "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." So to submit means to give up my right to do it my way all the time. No, no, no, we're going to compromise. We're going to serve the other. We're going to take the interest of the other person seriously. We are going to work as a team. We're not going to work as I'm the tough guy and you're going to support me in whatever I choose to do. So servant leadership is crucial and I would argue that that is real strength. It takes a real strong man to be able to serve his wife, to help her, to protect her, to treasure her, to love her. That is real strength. Oh no, Cliff, that's not real strength. Oh yeah, then you've never tried to love your enemy 'cause that's one of the hardest things to do to love your enemy. And at times in marriage it's going to feel like you're married to your enemy. Now hopefully that's not going to happen too often, but it's going to get intense. Why? 'Cause we're all sinners. And any religion or any philosophy that can't include sin is a fantasy. 'Cause in reality all of us are broken. We're all sinners and we put two sinners together. They're going to be problems. But it's the grace of God. It's the forgiveness of Christ. It's the patience of God. It's the kindness of Christ that is the glue that holds a marriage together. So what would you say to the people in their 20s or their 30s that are debating about getting married young? Or maybe even to the young person that's been in a relationship that's afraid. Or I don't know if I'm ready to get married. What would you guys say to the young people that are contemplating marriage at a young age where maybe it's less popular to get married young? What would you encourage those guys with? We got to beat out the Muslims and Mormons and have more kids who get married young. Amen. I think it's like four per household. You get some stuff. You're wondering, it's like four per household. No, I would encourage them to do so. My wife and I were just talking today about regretting actually not getting married younger and starting to have kids younger. So when you find that spouse, it's something that you just build a friendship and then it leads to more romance and then it leads to having kids. And you want to look after those kids and protect them unlike anything else. And so the level of fulfillment that comes, I think from having a healthy marriage and a family is way beyond just the dating scene. And if you just date, date, date, and then have kids older in life, you don't typically get to enjoy and the grandparents don't get to enjoy the kids as much as they would if you had younger. So I see all kinds of problems with that. Oftentimes I could name many examples. But I think the young, Younger side of it is so important because you look biblically, how early people were having kids. So early, it's so important to build that family to be fruitful and multiply. And when that occurs, I promise you, so many people think it's just a total meat market in New York City. So many people think the sexual, promiscuous lifestyle, where you have no accountability, no obligations is the way to go. I'm sorry, that leads to so much depression, so much freedom that is restrictive, it's scary. I mean, sure, you go into a marriage and you start to lose some freedom, right? Like, I'm not allowed to date as much now as I was before I was married. That's some freedom I gave up. That's some serious freedom I gave up. But you gain so much more freedom because you feel so protected by your spouse, so cared for, so loved, that I wouldn't trade that for anything. So I think, yes, people do need to get married younger who are Christian because that also fights and wars against the culture that gets married later. And so if you get married younger, then we can go about introducing our kids to Christ. And I'll never forget asking him, why did you have me, dad? You didn't have me, my mom had me, but why did you have me? That's for sure. And he said the primary reason was to reach people for Christ. Wow. And I was like, is that kind of backing it? You know what I'm saying? And I appreciate that though. That's very true for my kids as well. And so obviously the opportunity to do that is if you get married younger, you have that opportunity to say. Do you guys believe in soulmates? Or like, all right, let me rephrase the Christian way. My missing ribs out there. God's got my missing rib. Like do you guys believe in soulmates or do you believe that people can kind of just fall in love with anyone based on personality and interests? Bryce, if you have a missing rib, you need to come see a doctor friend of mine and you're trying to get your back together again. Life is about relationships. The rest is details. Christ said the purpose of life is to love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love your neighbors yourself. And the problem with sexual immorality is it's smashing relationships. It's reducing a person to a Barbie doll, to a stud, to a thrill-making device. That's not what people are. That's not the way you build relationships. And that's why there's so much loneliness 'cause we're reducing people to pleasure-making machines. Well, that's not what a person is. They're not a pleasure-making machine. My best friend is my wife. Oh, you got a perfect marriage cliff? No. My wife and I are both sinners. We don't have a perfect marriage. But she is my best friend. And I better stick with her the way she sticks with me and we better forgive each other and we better build a deep relationship. Now, what an honor it is to work with this guy. One of our three sons and his older brother Robert and his younger brother Ian are so precious and valuable to Sharon and me, it's incredible. Now, come on, guys. Think what brings your life real joy and fulfillment? A stock portfolio? A large bank account? A new car? If that is what brings you the greatest joy in life, you are a trivial person. No, God created us as gregarious, which is just a big word for meaning, God created us to connect with each other. God created us for relationship and that's where joy comes from. Joy comes from knowing God's love, experiencing His love, and also experiencing the love of others. Gosh, now we've got grandchildren and my wife and I are in grandparent heaven. You know what it's like to have a little grandchild wrap their arms around your neck and not let go and hug like you like blazes? And then Bryce, we have six granddaughters and one seventh granddaughters in heaven right now. And it was probably one of the most profound experiences for my wife and me and for our son and daughter-in-law to hold that little body of that little baby girl who was born dead. And to know that one day we're gonna see her again. And I don't think I've cried so much. I can't remember since I cried so much over that. And yet I know that I'm gonna see that child one day because Jesus Christ promises eternal life to all who trust in Him and I'm convinced that means as well as little to the little children. But why did I cry so much? I cried so much because I really love and I've lost. And that's what grief is. You really love and then you lose. And the tears flow and you grieve. And if you've never grieved in your life, it means you've never loved and lost. Because when you love and lose, you grieve. And then Christ comes in and says, "Now I want to comfort you. I want to comfort you with my presence and I want to give you my love." And there ain't nothing that comes close to that. To close, I like to close with prayer, but when we hung out with George and Phoenix when all of us were there, Cliff, you forced me to pray at the beginning, so now I'm going to turn it on you and ask you to pray for us to close. I've been waiting on this for a long time. You've made me pray. So now you're getting to pray. All right, let's pray for everyone to close this out. Lord Jesus, we worship you. For you are ultimately worthy of our love, our allegiance, our devotion, our commitment. Forgive us for our sins, for they are many. Fill us with your Holy Spirit. Thank you for grace and for the opportunity for Stuart and me to know Bryce and to try to encourage him and for this opportunity to talk with him on this tremendous broadcast. Lord, we pray for all of those who are listening in or watching that you would draw them close to yourself by your Holy Spirit. In Christ's name we pray. Amen.