Clients and Counsel: inside the real dynamics of legal relationships with BCLP and Aviva Investors | Commercial Awareness Compass #60

Hello and welcome to the commercial winners compass your weekly guide to thinking like a commercial lawyer Each episode we explore a key issue shape in the legal and business landscape helping you build clarity and confidence to discuss it by breaking it down to three levels beginner Intermediate and advanced this week. We have a bit of a different episode Not only will we join by apart from BCLP, but will also be joined by client from inviva investors I'll be taking close look at how clients choose their firms or what makes their relationships tick and how this and this value enables partnerships I'm Sam a law conversion student and future trainee sister. I'm joined state by Daniel from BCLP and Johnny from a Viva investors Would you both like to introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about what you do? Yes, you're all got to go first. So I'm Johnny Price. I'm the general counsel for a Viva investors That means I look after the legal team that supports all the activities of our business We're an asset manager So that means that we invest in a number of different asset classes in different places To support really the investment ambitions of our key client, which is a Viva the insurance company We also have external clients, but our main In our key client is really a Viva they account for about 80% of our assets that we invest in Actually probably so bit about the connection with BCLP. We have a long-standing relationship with BCLP going back Probably decades Certainly for as long as we've had a formal legal panel. It's been at least 10 years So they supported us during that whole period and but I think we'll come on to say a bit more about what that means in practice Through the podcast Thank you and Daniel So my name's Daniel banana and I'm a partner in the commercial real estate team here at BCLP So I've been at BCLP for Yeah, sort of 12 13 years and I've actually worked with a Viva in various capacities throughout my career So right from being a trainee up to being a partner and I suppose the exciting thing about that is seeing there are certain a Viva You know long-term developments I've worked on sort of throughout my career I work on a range of different projects so be it acquisitions disposals at an asset or corporate level joint ventures, financings, but also Development work and work with a range of clients And as I say a Viva being one of them and I think actually The relationship, but I think one of our partners Have told me the relationship goes back come sort of a couple of decades So it's a really long-standing relationship and And one that many people within the firm have had a touch point with a Viva to client So if you ask me then this is the perfect sort of group of people to have to talk to about it If you've got this long-standing relationship you really know sort of how value is added and what it means to provide value to a client And so just to turn to the beginner section and to kick us off I want to think about how relationships work on the sort of personal level between the people of the clients and the people of the firm So starting with you Johnny if you're choosing between firms for a piece of work what makes a particular firm stand out to you Yeah, it's a really good question and I should preface everything that I say with the fact that we're currently going through a panel review process So any comments that I make are not in relation to panels that are involved in that process is more observations over the years I would probably say that The technical is a given because we wouldn't be approaching firms that don't have the technical expertise across all the different activities That are relevant to our business. It's more about how tailored they are and It's something that's quite hard to draw out on a pitch particularly if you've got If it's a new relationship But it really is about those personal relationships. It's about knowing top to bottom who will be doing our work and What do I mean by relationships? We definitely don't see law firms as suppliers. We see them as part of a partnership You know we work together to manage through not just investment transactions the challenges that we face as a business What we may need to be doing down the line? So this is a really broad relationship and we've When it's done well You just have contact points at all sorts of levels within the firm It's not just like a top-down the senior people get together and talk It's about what you do throughout that whole structure and The differentiator is That ability to to have a tailored response so when you're presenting your pitch You're drawing out the fact that you know us very well. You know what we like culturally. You know how we work You know what our strategic objectives are but to stand out I think it's to tailor it and not to have the kind of cut and paste Approach that you sometimes see you'd be surprised when you look at pitches some of them a bit mechanical They just get give yourself that you can get off the internet which is kind of spotted relatively quickly It's really interesting you bring out that point about knowing who's in the firm then So I think from the outside especially as like the future trainee level I always think of partners the only ones who really properly interact with clients Would you say then that you also know people like the associates that the firm have a relationship with them as well as the partners? Yeah, 100% I mean that and that's a key differentiator when it's When the client relationship is done well you have contact contact points at every level because clearly I have a certain perspective Looking and thinking about the overall relationship, you know that would be a relationship between me and our relationship partners But every day there is activity going on that touches every level of person within the firm I think we we're in contact with most of the people who do anything at BCLP in in one format and another and You know, I've seen paralegals progress to training to associate you know, we've worked with trainees quite a lot and It I think it's all based on the fact that law you think it's a technical business when I Certainly, what I was a training. I thought almost the most important thing is knowing the law and of course it's a given You can't not know the law But it's really driven by relationships because that's what you do every day. It's very much Not what you do. It's how you do it and that really is driven through the relationships and that is um You know something that you wouldn't necessarily appreciate when you're stepping into a law firm But it's the thing to it's it's something that firms do well particularly our panel firms But also don't be afraid of doing that as you Progress or your journey within a law firm put you know the the the people aspects are so important Yeah, and on that I just want to ask quickly almost for to understand myself when you're looking to the people you're talking to in the firm Do you see things like trainee associate or paralegal? Do you just see them almost as lawyers you have a relationship with? Kind of as people which so You know you don't think about ties but because actually you're all working together with genuinely partnering with and yeah You know someone's got a Designing off the emails trainee or paralegal or whatever, but actually we're all contributing. It's not so we definitely are not hierarchical It's about Having that common purpose, you know Obviously as a client we want stuff to get done as quickly as possible. We want it to be efficient. We want to unearth highlight problems and fix them and that's a team effort. So how context contact points would be from You know the partner on the relevant transaction possibly the relationship partner If it's going well, we like to share good feedback at that level if it's not going so well We also give that feedback because we want to improve the relationship. It's it's not about beating each other up. It's about how do we we've chosen our panel firms? We want those relationships to work certainly with the Viva investors. We don't chop and change too much We have a panel review process and we do look at it on a kind of three-yearly basis But for us, you know if you don't broke you don't need to fix it But this is ongoing process of just making sure that we're delivering You know the right level of service and we're and it really is important that you get the sort of the bottom up Approach as well because I find that sometimes it doesn't get to me if I just float around on the top somewhere You know, I don't actually hear what's going on I don't hear the pain points that could be affecting a particular transaction something could be going well or not well Further down the hierarchy if you like I'm very much interested in all of that and I encourage my team to give feedback to me So that I'm aware of it not not just to celebrate the successes But also to remain close to what isn't going well to give an opportunity to fix it really so again this relationship is the key thing and We do it transactional work is quite intense, you know It's it's not you know you're not in the background everybody is contributing to it so you can't you can't get away from the fact that you need to have Strong working relationships with everybody or on those particular teams Yeah, so then the you'd say the key thing is almost the relationships regardless of status and rank and So then if you are looking at a new firm you spoken a bit about how you've been quite loyal in some ways to BCL P saying with them for I think you said almost 20 years or more Then if you are looking at a new firm. How does So how do they approach that? How do they what makes a difference to you if you are looking at someone you maybe haven't worked with before Is it how they treat you in the lead up to the pitch? I mean you spoke slightly about the pitch there and we'll come onto that a bit more depth later But sort of what is what do you look for in a new firm almost? I would say Being honest you sort of are a disadvantage if you're coming to it fresh because you've got a great panel of firms already And we've got good relationships with them. However, we always approach it with the mindset Well if we were to change who would it be? So definitely it's curiosity You don't want a mechanical pitch you want actually there's no one's on the firm that's approaching you to obviously Satisfied that they've got the right technical skill set and by that I mean not just saying we do the following You know that kind of generic blurb. It's more just tying it to what we are doing as a firm The hardest thing to do sometimes is honesty. We don't want our firms to pretend to be doing stuff that they don't do We we expect that not every firm will cover everything everywhere, we want honesty about the particular strengths. And it's just starting to build those relationships. As I say through curiosity, it's asking questions. So it's maybe if they are responding to a request or a proposal, asking questions, maybe challenging what were the questions that we're asking in the in the brief, not just taking it passively, cutting pasting stuff in and hoping for the best, it's having a bit of a dialogue about it. And actually, we would also be quite honest as well about where we stand, where we acknowledge the fact that our existing firms do have an advantage, it's very difficult for new firms to kind of compete on the same playing field. So we kind of help with that process as well. Realistically though, it would be if we've got possibly a technical gap, there's a firm that can plug a gap that our existing firms can't. And therefore there's that opportunity there. But it's I keep coming out to the people and I think it's it's it's central to all of them because it's building that relationship. It's only through doing that that you get an honest dialogue about what we need and what the relevant firm can deliver. So yeah, it's a people led process. Yeah, so that relationship aspect has been central to it throughout. So regardless of what stage is where it's the continuing relationship or a new one, it's about engaging with the people, I guess a more personal level and being able to sort of talk, pick up the firm. And engage and even ask questions. And so sorry, Daniel, I'll just turn to you quickly from the firm side. How does this look from your perspective? What does it mean to build a relationship and how do you maintain your relationships in that personal level? Um, then it's a good question. I think and a lot of it will echo what what Johnny said. I think the textbook answer, you know, first and foremost, you're delivering legal excellence. So you've got to remember that we're a service provider and I think that legal excellence is going to be the foundation of any relationship. And as Johnny said, that that's almost the given. And connected with that, maintaining client relationships is is also then important to maintain that trust. So that means delivering an excellent service, but it also means it also means being responsive to what the clients say, what they need. It's almost like if you've got a, you know, if you've got a good friend, being very honest with them. So if something hasn't gone to plan, you have to show that willingness to address, you know, whatever the client's concerns was. And, you know, also if you it's understanding the client's business, so if you think there's something else that they might need, you know, your horizon scanning, your flagging these issues up ahead, it's sort of fulfilling that trusted advisor role. But yeah, I would say so fundamental is that you can't see the client as some amorphous corporate body. At the end of the day, they're people and we're all human. And so what does that mean to us? So I suppose to me, it means being genuine. I think being respectful, I think showing the client that you care not just about the business, but also their role within the business, you know, looking at the individual and the service that you can provide to the businesses as a whole, but also to support that individual in particular. And I think thinking about sort of how I deliver services, I sort of put into three buckets. You've got those transactions and those clients where it's purely transactional, you know, they need excellent time, excellent advice on budget within time and they pay for the services, you know. And that is that's a very transactional relationship and it's probably not too dissimilar to how, you know, a lot of people will do work. For some clients though, you can develop a deeper relationship. So and it's more of a professional connection in that you've got your shared business interests or your shared sector specialisms. And with those kind of clients, you can meet up for coffees, you can go for lunches and you know, you're sharing market insights, you're sort of sharing your expertise and what you're seeing and you're developing that relationship. But it's much more of a sort of professional spirit of relationship. And I think that's all about good networking and being useful to the client outside of the matters that specifically you're working on with them. But and I don't know if it's too dissimilar to what other people do, but what I like to do when I kind of connect with clients is, you know, there are a few where you end up finding client where it's not just the shared business outlook that you that you have, but also it's shared values. So, you know, as much as I love talking about work and I can talk about work all day, it's also exciting to sort of share those ideas of, you know, what the workplace should be. How can we curate and maintain that high performance, positive and inclusive culture within our respective organizations. And you know, ultimately, how can we get the best out of the people that we work with and we work for? And for me, that's probably one of the most rewarding connections and it probably, it doesn't necessarily always lead to work. You know, when you've got that genuine connection with somebody and you are genuinely interested with them, I think it's going in with the mindset that yes, you know, years down the line, they might change organizations, they might have a decision making power and actually they might appoint you. But you are sort of building that genuine link with somebody. And you know, more importantly, it can lead to a positive change. And, you know, if anything, you'll end up having a fantastic conversation with them. Yeah, I think I want to come back to that point about values, especially later on in touch. So, ask Johnny about that as well. But for the moment, you'd mentioned about seeing the client as a person as well, just almost exactly what Johnny was saying. But then from the firm side, if Johnny's interacting with people at every level, almost who are you interacting with at the firm, is it the general council or will it be other people from the client that aren't necessarily involved in the legal side who will be potentially in other aspects of the transaction? I mean, it's again, it's a very good question because it will change depending on the client. So, with some clients, you will primarily be dealing with the in-house general council and they will be, they might be the person who's sort of feeling you work. With Aviva, we've got a great relationship where actually if I'm working on a transaction, I'll be dealing directly with the business. So, I'll be dealing with asset managers. I'll be dealing with people who fundamentally have that commercial interest in how that building has been built, operated, or how they want to sell or require it. And they will be my point of contact and I'll take my instructions from them. But equally, you know, Aviva has, you know, as do some clients, they have their in-house team. And with Aviva, it's a great, it's, you know, relatively large in-house team. And I will connect with them on a whole range of issues, but it might be sort of very specific, you know, if there's, if there's say some kind of compliance issue. So, for example, you know, there might be an indemnity that needs to be provided out of the usual course of business. That's something that the commercial person on the ground might not be able to think about. But Aviva Legal will be able to take that sort of broader picture in terms of the compliance requirements and what would be needed on that specific transaction. And equally, there are interactions, it doesn't have to be just when you're doing deals. You know, you, there are great opportunities to not only meet outside of work, but also deliver training. So, there's a lot that we will do, which will be very relevant to what the in-house legal team do. So, we often take the opportunity to ensure that we're looking at what would be useful for the Aviva Legal team to understand. And that gives us an excuse to, you know, get in the office, get to meet people and again share expertise. So, it's really trying to look ahead and see how you can add value, not just in, you know, deal time, but then as you're saying, you think it's like, Hurrayan scanning and really trying to preempt what the client needs, not just necessarily with the in-house council, but like at all levels. And so, I just want to ask you to sort of round off the beginner section. Is there anything that you think that BCLP or maybe yourself specifically do the different from the rest of the city that maybe sets your pilot in somewhere? At BCLP, well, I mean, I'd love to think that we've got not just in terms of the service delivery, the breadth of a platform that delivers services, you know, it's very deep in our sector focus. So, I'm biased in terms of real estate, but delivering that quality advice where you have experts in pretty much every aspect that you could think of in a real estate transaction, be that from your typical planning construction real estate, but also, you know, in silvery departments that you might not necessarily immediately think of in a transaction like employment to ones that are absolutely core and important as part of the more complicated transactions like corporate advice and tax advice. But I'd like to think, you know, echoing what Johnny said, it's sort of working on ensuring that we see the client as a person and treating them as I would do my best friend, you know, with that honesty with each other and valuing that relationship that you have. And, and I think, you know, as I say, you may well be that other people are doing it, but I'd certainly see that that's the primary focus on what I would like to deliver and when I see those relationships that I build out of that, you see something that is very genuine. I'm just rounding off. What one final comment on that is, here, I echo all of that, and I think BCLP does it very well. It's, I think it's the hardest thing to do as a firm, which is to set the tone of your culture. That's by far the hardest thing. It takes the longest to do it. And you've got to get it right every day in your organization, but when you get it right, you can be aligned with what the client is looking for. So, you know, once you, once you create that marriage of shared interest, you know, they're in line successfully. That's the basis of a successful relationship. Okay, so I think I want to stick with that point on culture actually. So as we move into the intermediate, I know that especially in the US, things like D, D and I or diverse acting inclusion have almost come under fire in the corporate space where people see it almost as pointless and things like ESG almost, you know, being thrown out the window. So I want to sort of, you spoke about culture and shared values a bit so far. And I want to touch on that. And so, Johnny, what weight do you give a firms approach to things like D&I and ESG commitments during panel discussions? Yeah, so there is a place hold of that. There's a section in our RFP that goes into that. We want to know what our firms are doing to support that. What is our approach? We definitely focus on inclusion broadly. That has really helped us navigate the backlash because we're kind of continuing doing exactly what we do the last year or the year before. I would say we're doubling down on inclusion because it is important to us. The principle that we want our workplace to be as inclusive as possible so that we are attracting talent from all backgrounds and therefore have the best talent and then once you've attracted that talent, they stay around. You know, you can't go wrong with that. That's not at all political. We've never been strongly political about, you know, brandishing a stick to say, to come back to our panel process. If you don't do this, you will not be considered for the panel. If we didn't see a lot of support for D&I, you know, as a general principle, it would make us question it. Not because we think they're not on the, you know, we're not completely aligned, but it's all about being able to adapt to change. And if you can't, if you're culture or the makeup of your firm is over here and then we've all been saying what we think it doesn't, you know, does the question mark here whether it's representative? Do you have a broader selection of, you know, are you reflecting society broadly? There's a question mark there and I think the ability to adapt to it, to address it, try to change it is super important. And whether you've delivered the outcome, so have you managed to change it? I think it's a different question, but it's about that willingness to adapt to change and, you know, be aligned with us. We're not saying think like us or you won't get the work, but I mean, Daniel and I worked together, sort of to the side of our day jobs on various inclusion initiatives, because we're really interested to see how BCLP handling this, what challenges are you facing, what can we learn from you? It's back to this relationship again. We have an ongoing dialogue, but to round off, it is important to us. It remains important to us, but we're sort of, I would say it's a more nuanced approach now, where we just want to see that our firms are focusing on it largely, because we do want to be aligned culture with the firms that we use, because probably there are broader things that won't work from that, if you can't agree, common goals on a topic like inclusion, but it's more that we can partner with each other to support things that we can't control. For example, if we look at the pipeline of black lawyers, there are a few black lawyers that there's a question that we can't fix, because we tend to get our lawyers from law firms. So to the extent that there is a problem in the system, we want to work together to try and fix it to all to better understand it. So it's very much a dialogue. We don't have the answers. No one, it's an ongoing conversation. We all know we haven't fixed it yet, but it's definitely important to work together on those issues. And again, to be honest about it, which is why I value Daniel, and Daniel and others at the firm, because we can just say, what do you think about this? How do you, the thorny stuff as well, not just the combi-ar, nicey stuff? Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah, I think it's interesting to pick out that point about sort of having the same values, even if not the same outcomes, because I think Daniel was talking about earlier about almost treating as a friendship. And I don't think you want to be friends with people who had such misaligned values in that sense. And also that point about how the progression of lawyers comes from firms and what they're doing, then fees your business. Almost you want to support people who support your vision in that way, because you're almost thinking in a way about your own future too. You got to look further ahead, Apsit, it's much more of a strategic question, and we're conscious that we can't influence. What we can, we do a lot of work on social ability, so thinking how do we encourage law enforcement different backgrounds to go into the law, or even to go into higher education at the kind of year, 12, year, 13, and before stage. So you want to get as many people into the system as you can. And then it's understanding, well, why do, why are there a few black laws in particular, what's causing that attrition, what can we do to support that? But it's about understanding the problem as kind of ticking a box and saying, oh, we want quotas, we've got to just, we've got to look like we're diverse. You know, it's less about that visible diversity, it's more just, well, actually, do you have a truly open system? You can't possibly attract the best talent in a law firm or a corporate. And as you really are open, what the background or identity should be relevant really, but if you're not representative, as I say, there's a question there. That's the question that we want to explore. Yeah. And so Daniel, I'm excited to you. How do you sort of answer that question? How do you demonstrate sort of that you're aligning your DNI approaches and you're providing value and your approach are meaningful at BTRP? So I think there's a whole range of objective measures that you can probably have. So you, I mean, a good story in particular, for example, is the part of the Aviva process is they placed weight on the firms, you know, shorthand ESG score. So there's a third party body that can provide an ESG score and that's provided by ECO Vardis. And Aviva said, you know, there's an importance in terms of the panel, the scores that panel firms have. But important to that is that Aviva didn't want that to be a competitive, they didn't want that panel firms have a competitive edge just based on how good at ESG they are. It was this kind of rising tide theory that, you know, every panel firm has to improve and it shouldn't be used as a, as a differentiator, it should be something that we're all helping each other and working towards improving as a sector and as an industry. And the outcome of that meant that, you know, we spoke, placed a lot more focus looking at what the requirements were for ECO Vardis. And, you know, year on year now we've been able to substantially improve our score as well as, you know, achieve and obtain our science based targets for carbon reductions. And I think that's, you know, a great example of where clients can use their influence throughout the supply chain to bring about, to bring about positive change. And I think, you know, those scores go into the pictures and it can get, you know, you don't want it to be a tick box exercise of this is our score tick, you know, have five stars. And there's a whole range of other things that go into the pictures as well that are, and it's important to be, you can't be woolly in terms of what you're saying. It's important to have something, you know, and this is why scores are good with accrediting bodies, they're good because they give you some objective measure of what you're doing. And so we have a range of other things that will put into the, to the pitch, for example, with, you know, the LGBTQ plus pay gap that pay gap that we have or our disability pay gap, we're only through the handful of firms that will disclose that kind of information, will disclose, you know, all of the hours that we do in terms of pro bono support for charitable causes, as well as, you know, there's a whole number of awards that we, that we have that other firms can, you know, compete with in terms of your ranking or social mobility indexes and the Stoweal index. And all of that is good, you know, to sort of demonstrate, look, we're doing a really good job and this is what, and this is why you should work with us. In addition to that, I think we wanted to go a step further. So we're, I'm pretty, pretty much sure we're the only firm to have a dedicated global and the client relationship partners. So Daisy Reeves is incredibly well respected in her field, works across all of our 31 offices across the world. And she really drives those pro bono and inclusion initiatives with clients. But I'd say all of that aside is part of the tick box, you know, all of that you can put on your website and it looks glossy and it looks good and it, you know, pat on the back well done. But I think in terms of genuinely showing clients that you, that that I and D or inclusion and these values are important. It's all about that, that sort of personal connection and I think if you're then able to actually, you know, me clients in as an individual and show and talk to them directly and share those stories and share those ideas. I think that's how you're really demonstrating how you're actually sort of walking the walk as well as talking the talk. And I think a good example is where, you know, Johnny's mentioned a number of times how we've collaborated with Aviva on initiatives. So Aviva have their own social mobility internship program and we will host the interns and provide mentors for those interns. But also we have our own program as well and Aviva does the same and, you know, Aviva come in. They did, you know, an absolutely fantastic day sort of showing the students how law firms can work with their clients. And that sort of showed alignment in terms of shared interests. And I think that's, you know, an easy win and we've done other initiatives together. I think one example though of where you go the extra mile is sort of outside of work. I've got, you know, I'll participate in a number of mentoring programs and one day my mentee said to me that they were really interested in data protection, you know, which I have a very sort of, sort of high level understanding of. But I was able then to reach out to one of the data [BLANK_AUDIO] protection lawyer, Aviva, who had met on one of the inclusivity programs that we'd actually done. And I said, you know, I've got a mentee, they'd love to learn more about data protection. And she not only agreed to kind of meet up with a mentee, but then she got another one of her colleagues at Aviva to get involved. And they had a whole video session where, you know, they really went into the depths about her sector, her field and her specialism. And I think that's where you show that it's not just about what you're putting on paper, but every individual, regardless of their position, is willing to live those values and demonstrate those values. And those are the kind of stories that won't go in a pitch. But I think those are kind of the stories that are important in terms of maintaining that relationship beyond the pitch. Yeah. So it's really interesting how you talk about the pitch, not just being this sort of one and done thing, but it's like ongoing, all the things that, you know, you build up into that, then keep going. And it's just like really continual relationship that I think we've emphasized throughout the podcast. I think also, I want to touch on, we spoke about the pitch, we spoke about the panel quite a bit, but I appreciate we haven't actually explained it. So Daniel, so for those unfamiliar with the term who are still with us, can you explain what the legal panel is and why it's so important to be appointed to one? Yeah, sure. So some clients, so with some clients, when you, when work, it's about personal connections and that client may appoint one or a number of firms based on that personal connection with, with other clients, especially sort of larger organisations, there's a bit more of a prescriptive procurement process in terms of how you will procure legal services. And a panel approach involves sort of inviting a whole number of law firms to compete, to be a pool of the approved law firms that can sit on that law, on that sort of organisation's panel. Now I'll come into a little bit more detail about what the composition of the panel. Yeah, for those firms that have sort of a sort of more prescribed procurement process in terms of how they select that panel. The process can be quite lengthy, detailed submissions from each firm, each submission being reviewed and scored in detail. And it's absolutely essential that there's sort of an unbiased and transparent approach. So things like hospitality, for example, might be suspended during those periods, depending on how clients want to run that procurement process. Now the panel itself, different law firms might be competing for different specialisms within that panel. So it might be, this is our go-to, we are the go-to law firm for a particular practice area or a particular sector, whereas other clients might have panel firms that are within the same sector, but just have different sort of, you know, different types of transactions that they might might lend themselves well to advise the client on. Once you're on the panel, you're sort of in this pool of law firms that the client can dip into for legal advice. And the benefit of that is that, you know, from a law firm's perspective, there's a steady stream of instructions over the term of the panel that can work a number of years. There's a lot of prestige in terms of being appointed to the panel because, you know, if you think, especially with clients that have, there are themselves respected organisations being a part of the panel, it's sort of the reflected glory that you get. But also, I think what's in there is it would be impossible for an individual partner rainmaker to achieve a panel position on the whole. You know, you, I think once you're on a panel, you're demonstrating that breadth and depth of support that you can provide from the platform that you're offering. And it follows, you know, connect to the instructions. If it's a big organisation, there's then that steady stream of work, which is steady stream of revenue. And I think the benefit of that is then you're not constantly pitching for every deal that you're doing. And then you can really focus on service delivery and improvements to that service delivery. And I would say, you know, panels that does lead the foundation, as Johnny's mentioned, of those longer term partnerships where you can sort of mold your service delivery around, you know, what that client specifically needs. Thank you. And then so, Johnny, from your perspective, when you see these pictures for to get onto that point at the panel, so, you know, for these law firms they're seeing, you know, this is just like prestigious for them is something they really almost need for their business as well. What are there any things that firms do that typically go above and beyond? So you spoke about how some may be quite formulaic, but on the flip side to that outside of the relationships, are there any things that firms really do to make themselves stick out maybe once they're on the panel or if they're pitching for a piece of work whilst on a panel? Yeah, definitely. I can give you lots of examples of kind of that going above and beyond. And it I'm reflecting with something that Daniel said, actually a lot of this stuff actually isn't visible because you've got these quite new ones relationships that have been built over a long period of time. There's that ability to assess what we need to be able to think, hang on, if my client over here is struggling with this, the investors probably are pick up the phone and say, how are you approaching that? Are you encountering this particular issue? So that kind of proactive just sharing of knowledge in the way that it's an extension of our firms. I mean, again, when Daniel was discussing how transactions are supported, I'm delighted when Daniel and Tink were directly with our business because I don't want to be in everything because I haven't gotten time. And we can trust that the right advice is being given. And then when support is needed on a particular issue or as I say, celebrating successes or picking up on where there's a bit of friction or it's a bit creaky, that's when you would get involved. But it's very much part of this broader relationship. What we love to see is, as I say, just fostering and encouraging relationships at every level. So it's important for us to have a team top to bottom from Power Legal to Partner who are doing our transactions and almost empowering those team members to build relationships. I think that's the advice I would give to someone going into particularly client-focused law firms is not to be afraid of building those relationships. If I reflect on what it was like for me, I thought, well, technical, don't get sued, what's going to be done? And it's not that really. I mean, it's a given that you need to deliver that. But it's actually more about building the relationships and just being able to be curious about what the client's doing. Because I used to send out my draft documents and not really know where it went. It was sort of like it went to the client. And of course, the client is a number of different people. Each of whom will have an input to the document. If you're able to ask that question even, you know, who needs to look at it? Do I know them? Would it help me to speak to them? This kind of like interpersonal stuff that really helps things go smoothly because you're building confidence, you're building relationships. And it means that you can differentiate yourself. And that's one thing I would do differently, I think, if I look back on training me, would be a bit more confident and outgoing. And just to be curious, ask the question, just say, who needs to look at it? Actually, do you want to know them? Do you have particular concerns about this document? Whereas I kind of threw it out into the ether and hope for the best, I think, that's sometimes. But it's, you know, it's because if you built this relationship, you end up with, I don't know, I'm mentoring former paralegals that I met through BCLP, Shagon BCLP's global senior part. And I bumped into him at an event. And I'm like, oh, hang on a minute, it just occurred to me, could you come and speak to us about, you know, it's all quite fluid. And that's it. It's the stuff that goes on in and amongst the relationship and it's building on, like I said, I mean, it's a given that you can do the work. It really is the other stuff that cements the relationship and keeps it going. That's what keeps that will keep a firm on the panel is that ability to build relationships at every level and actually just have that living and breathing partnership where if you plan it, it won't happen. So it's stuff that has to evolve naturally, much as the work that I'm doing on DNIs, Daniel and I just like, we thought, hang on, can we try this? We meet up separately outside of any formal kind of forum just to discuss challenges. So it's kind of a bit of morphous, hard to pin it down. But that is the life part of a good relationship and we really, you know, we have that from BCLP. And I think that's the opposite. I echo that. And I think that that feeds into the culture of the organisation that you have and what your day to day job is like, you know, it's one thing, the job is tough and the job is high pressured. And if you can layer that across with, you know, it's something where you're connecting with clients on an individual basis, it makes work enjoyable. It's that sort of extra layer that makes it enjoyable. Yeah, that's another great example. So it's, I'm mentoring someone. I'm kind of at the limits of their directions, more private practice, I'm in-house. So I spoke to just, you know, very senior person. I know one of our law firms, would you mind just having shoot my mentee was a crucial junction in her career. I said, look, can you just give me your and put your, you know, you're very senior person in law firm. She'd benefit from it. And of course that went brilliantly. And equally then my mentee was then invited to mentor somebody else at the request of the person I introduce them to. So it's, you know, it is a bit come by, but it's it's the fact is not always visible. But if you, if you've got shared culture and shared goals, we will all do whatever we can to forward those goals. And it feeds into your working relationships as well, because you've just got honest statements when stuff is going wrong, you're not trying to beat people up just about fees. You want the relationships to improve. If whatever reason the service level is falling down, there could be a reason for that. There could be a mental health problem. You know, if something is not going well, that may not be visible to Daniel if it's someone junior in his team. So we, you know, we don't spend that all time saying, "Oh, is everything okay?" But we We have got a unique perspective where if you don't talk about it, then you're missing. You could be walking past something that is important and doesn't need to be fixed. And that's why, again, when you know people for a long period of time, you know the firm for a long period of time, that stuff starts to happen. I encourage that culture when we hire people into my team, so this is how we approach our law firm relationships. Don't let problems escalate, give feedback at the moment. Just ways of behaving that you share. And I think it means that you just really hit the spot more times than you don't. Yeah, so in a way, the best pictures are almost ongoing. It's not like one discrete event. It's the whole relationship beyond just the pitch. So being on the panel is one thing. And then what you do, as we used to kind of spoken about throughout the whole podcast, it's that human aspect that you have to keep maintaining and building and growing in a way. Absolutely. You know, hats off to all of our firms, they select the right people, whether it's the relationship level and also down through the firm. Because you know, being a lawyer is hard enough. You know, you're busy turning the documents and go shading the transaction on blocking issues. There's a lot of work there. So we certainly don't expect to have lawyers to be kind of trailing around us off to work. And you want to be my friend. You know, it's not that, but you create space for it if you've got a rapport. This space is created for all of the things I've just described. And I'd say another thing that I believe is very good as well and it leads into this. All we're talking about the panel is bringing together the different panel firms. Because it's not just about the relationship between the panel firm and the client, but there could potentially be friction if you've got lots of firms competing for the same work. But I think if you are a mature organisation that can handle a panel well, you will be able to bring the panel firms together. And I, as a result, have been working with a number of different lawyers in other firms as part of the Aviva relationship for that same number of years. And so again, you sort of, you get more out of your relationships by ensuring that everybody can kind of cooperate in the same direction. Yeah. And I think I just want to sort of round out the podcast and think about if there's any advice you'd have Daniel. We've heard that Johnny's advice has been fantastic, the idea of being confident and trying to put yourself out there and really getting involved from the outset and be curious. Daniel, do you have any sort of advice or maybe skills that a junior lawyer or even a prospective lawyer might want to be developing to help maybe take over those client relationships once they reach that point in their career? I think going over the basics and ensuring that you're actually delivering technical excellence well is obviously the foundation. I think the broader aspects, we talk a lot about sort of tech and innovation, but I think on the innovation piece, it doesn't necessarily need to be tech and thinking about how can I do what I'm doing better or more efficiently? I think having that mindset is then all about how you can deliver a service better and again, that sort of ties into maintaining client relationships, which will be ever more important. But I think sort of what we've echoed throughout this is that interpersonal skills that you're developing is it's how you communicate, how you collaborate. It's that emotional intelligence, you're reading the room, kind of gauging how to work with people. I think, rely less on sort of screens and emails to do business. Sometimes it's just as simple as picking up the phone and developing, knowing a little bit more about the client more than just what deal is that client working on. Some clients don't, they don't want to have a personal chat and tell you how their weekend is. It's not about trying to be a buddy, but it is trying to just develop more of a relationship. That is, as you would do any kind of good relationship, being responsive, understanding, and just developing again, it comes out to emotional intelligence. So almost the summary of the podcast as a whole is just be a person. That's the best way to interact between client and law firm. I think, yeah, I guess even I think as someone who is in law school myself doing the PGDL, the idea of the client is so it's almost drilled into you that they are the client, they're not the person, they are the client to attach yourself. But really you're saying you shouldn't do that, you shouldn't be detaching yourself, partly in a good lawyer or a working in law firm is being able to be possible and not detaching yourself in that way. Definitely, yeah, I mean, hearing that I completely agree. So when they do differently, I would be much more bring yourself to it rather than just a formal, I'm the lawyer. Yeah, thank you. And so I think with that sort of great piece of advice and that almost sound bite, that brings us to the end of this week's commercial, when it's compass. I want to say a big thank you to both Daniel and Johnny for their time today. And this has been a fantastic episode. It is really, I think, drilled down to the core of what it means to be almost a commercial advisor. It's not just the technical excellence that Daniel always brings up and mentions, but also how much more goes into that. Just to remember, being commercial where isn't just about following the headlines, it's about understanding the questions they raised and how lawyers help to answer them. We'll see you next week to help keep building your commercial awareness. But until then, prepare without the panic. Thank you.