Clear Is Kind: How Great Coaches Have Hard Conversations with Coach Laura Ionello

(upbeat music) - Hey everybody, welcome back. This is DJ Halear and you are listening to episode 532 of the Mindset Advantage podcast. And this week, we're continuing diving in to our special series titled "Coaching Beyond the Scoreboard" where I've interviewed now 17 Elite Division 1 coaches across a variety of sports to talk about what it really means to make a lasting impact as a coach. I've been loving these interviews and if you've been enjoying them too, or maybe you're new to the Mindset Advantage podcast, I'd highly encourage you to go over to DJHalear.com/coach where you'll be able to get a free e-book where I've compiled all of these episodes into one hot spot for you to go through the episodes, see the transcripts and also fill out reflection questions for you and your staff to go through. I've been at this for a little over a year talking to these coaches and some of the wisdom that we've pulled out has been absolutely life-changing. And some of that life-changing advice is also in this episode today. Today, I get the chance to talk with coach Laura Ionello. Laura is the head coach of Texas Women's Golf and she's one of the most respected leaders in all of collegiate golf. She's known for building championship level culture and developing the mental game in elite golf. She led the University of Arizona to the 2018 NCAA national championship and also won a national championship as a player back in 2000. In this episode, we talked about so many parts of coaching, including her 2018 national championship journey and some of the hurdles that she had to go through before hoisting the trophy. We talked about some of the lessons that she's learned from adversity in the last 18 years of coaching. We also talked about how to help build confidence in players and ultimately how to coach beyond the scoreboard. There is so much in this conversation. I'm very excited for you guys to take a listen. Also, if you're a coach out there and you want to coach beyond the scoreboard and you're looking to expand your knowledge and become the type of coach you've always wanted to be, I work with coaches one-on-one all over the country on helping them attack the gap from where they are to where they want to be. So if you're a coach out there who feels like you're on an island and you don't have anybody to go to, to talk to about some of the issues you're going through or perhaps just learn some systems that you can put into place to have a successful or even more successful program, I would love to see if it's a fit for us to work together. So you can shoot me an email at [email protected] or send me a DM on Instagram. I'd love to see if it's a fit. I have a passion for working one-on-one with coaches to help them deliver a product that they're proud of and ultimately has a lasting impact. So if that's you, go ahead and reach out and let's see if it's a fit. But without further ado, let's get to this a fantastic conversation, another addition to the coaching beyond the scoreboard series with none other than coach Laura Ionello. Let's go. (upbeat music) I want to start with the year 2018 where you won a national championship at the University of Arizona. That was a bumpy road. There's a lot of lessons that we can pull from that time. Can you tell me in the listeners a little bit of a story of the year of 2018? - Yeah, 2018. If you would have talked to me at the beginning of that year, it was probably one of the most difficult years of my coaching career. In golf, we play five count for scores and I remember Christmas Day. I had a young lady on my team text me that she had decided she didn't want to play college anymore and she was going to turn pro as a gift to God that she was going to go and flourish on the LPGA tour, which was heartbreaking to me 'cause I knew that was going to be a huge element for our team that was going to be missing this best player. And then boom, a month later, I have another player, one of my best players that is really kind of going through some mental anguish and missing home, homesick and she also have decided that boom, she wants to quit the team. And but luckily we had been able to get a new player in mid-year and so really that year, I remember we were just kind of piecing it all together and trying to, we're always trying to fight for championships. And so I had a player quit and then I was able to kind of keep that player around who wanted to transfer out and boom, we make it to the national championship. We're super talented, we have what it takes to win but we kind of play really well the first three rounds and the fourth round we struggle. We lose this huge lead. We had like a 15 shot lead to make the final eight. Then boom, I have this amazing player who he was Bianca packed again and makes an eagle putt on the last hole to get us into a playoff for the eighth spot. And you know, the top eight kind of make it into this match play format. The top eight have actual chance to win the national championship. Bianca makes this eagle putt, it was like a gift from God. It was unbelievable that puts us into a playoff against Baylor. We're playing in the dark. We had to play, they send all your players out on the golf course. It's literally dark out. We beat Baylor in the playoff or the eighth seat. So the next morning we get the one seed UCLA. Boom, we take them down. The next match in the afternoon, we have Stanford. Complete team effort, everybody. The final day, the number one ranked team in the country. Alabama, they were by far on paper. The best team in the country, just stud after stud after stud. And here we were the, as my old assistant Derek Bradley used to say, we were the land of the misfit toys. And boom, we take Alabama down in extra holes. Special story, we had Haley Moore, who was a player out of San Diego, you know, a big girl. She was bullied her whole life. Nobody recruited her. Derek and I recruited her to Arizona. It's a really touching story how we changed the trajectory of that young lady's life. She's probably like a big, big, big girl. She makes the winning putt for us to win the national championship, changes her life. She goes on to play pro. That taught me that the best things in life come from moments of adversity. And that's that moment of 2018 winning that championship with that team. And my coach, Derek, alongside me, will forever be up there with one of the best memories in my life of having my children. When you look back at that time in 2018, and even as a player, when you won back in 2000, what did winning a national championship coach? What did it give you that you expected? And perhaps what didn't it give you that you thought it would? That's a great question. Winning a championship, it instantly validates you as a coach, right? You're like, you're one of the best. You can get it done. You can close. You can finish. You've arrived, I guess. It made me feel more confident around my peers knowing that I've done it. I have the experience now. But then on the personal side, what I've learned so much about a championship is that it does not define you because at the end of the day, even after I've won a championship in 2018, I still put my night keys on the cart path, and I got to go recruit, and I got to pour into these kids' lives because I think more than ever, our youth need us to pour into them and to make sure that they have the support but also are held accountable and all those things. And so I look at my life as not defined as by holding these trophies, but how many kids are going to be at my funeral? And at my funeral, what would these kids say about me? And I really, truly hope that at the end of the day, that I've impacted them in a bigger way that I always say, if you're going to be on my team, you've got to be polite and kind because I think in this world, we don't see that enough because I think even if you don't like somebody, there's never a reason to not be polite. So that's kind of my take. Going through that 2018, there's some adversity on Christmas day. And I'm sure there's adversity throughout the whole year, people wanting to leave. And I'm sure there are other things that coaches kind of come across with adversity. What's the greatest lesson you learned about adversity? Knowing that not only did you go through it, you grew through it, and we're able to stay at the top of the mountain at the end. What did you learn about adversity in 2018 that has cured you the last seven years? I think you just have to know that life, there's peaks, there's valleys, there's all these things, but it won't kill you. We all have these moments of adversity. But if you're coaching, if you're a leader, you can get through them in that one little bad moment is not going to kill you. And so if you just keep your head down, focus on what's important to you or your why, I guess, and that's pouring into the team that you have, and you could dwell, and you could be in sorrow about the player that quit on Christmas day and broke your heart and the player that wants to go back home or the player that you didn't get, the recruit that you didn't get, or you can just put your head down and you can continue to just do the job, invest in the people that you do have that are happy to be playing for you is what I've learned. And adversity is such a good thing. It really, really is. For example, I threw my back out a month ago. I have a tear and a disc, and it was, but it's so brutal. But yet, I'm like, you know what, I was not stretching. I was not doing my physical therapy. I wasn't doing anything that I know I need to do. So good, good, it's good that my back went out. So now I can actually take care of myself. At what point coach in your life, did you learn that lesson? Was there a turning point where you started to see failure as feedback? Oh, it was, I wish I would have learned it way earlier in life when I played pro on the LPJ tour because I lived, I wish I would have had Brian Kane. Brian Kane, who's our, our, our mental performance coach here at Texas. And I wish I would have had Brian Kane when I was a pro golfer because I valued myself value was in if I made a cut or if I made money that week or if I didn't, and I couldn't separate it. And I spiraled so bad. And, but I love that experience because now I can help my ladies on my team realize they're going to have these same emotions when they play pro, but I would say I learned it way too late in life, not too late. I mean, there's never a time, never too late, but I think the biggest moment for me in learning that was when I had kids, when I had my two daughters, Nat and Joe, that to me, which I didn't realize at the time was such a moment for me because then I look at everything that they go through in life. And I'm like, and I'm always encouraging them like, it's going to be okay. Like, you got this. Like, don't worry about it. Like, you scabbed your knee on your skateboard. No, we do. We'll just put a band data on it. I think, honestly, being a parent was probably that moment, which I was 33 and 35, so a little older. Took some time. But like you said, there's never too late as long as we get to the lesson. You know, you touched on something I think is really important, the identity piece. And when I think about, you know, individual sports, and I know you're in an individual and a team sport, but when we're an interdependent sport, it's very clear on how we match up on the scoreboard. It's like, hey, this is what I contributed. This is what I did. These were my shots. And sometimes athletes, whether it's golf, tennis, et cetera, wrestling, we can fall into the identity of, I'm only as good as the score that I put out. And that can really spiral an athlete. I'd really like to double click on that because I'm sure you've seen that over your last 18 years. And maybe you felt that as, like you said, as a pro, let's start with this. How do you help athletes separate the identity of, yes, I play golf, but I'm not a golfer. Does that make sense? Well, I think that's really important to make sure that with my athletes, something that we do is we make sure that they can define their accomplishments in life. And okay, your accomplishments are not only that you maybe are a record holder for Texas Women's Golf and that you have a low stroke average or if you've won so many events, I said, what else have you achieved in your life? Oh, you got admitted into the University of Texas. Oh, you have a 4.0 GPA. Oh, you have friendships for life because you're a good person. I think you have to be very, very clear in making sure that you can define accomplishments. And then I tell my women to, don't be scared to verbalize what your achievements are, what you've done that are so good because I said, those define you. Are you a good daughter? Are you a good girlfriend? Are you a good team member? You give that team member a hug at the end of the day after a crappy day of qualifying and shoot. Like they just need a big hug. Like are you that person that people can trust and lean on and it's so hard in golf because I think especially as these women go and play professional golf, like your success is dictated on whether or not you make money and stay high enough on the the money list. And then if you don't make enough money, you have to go back to two school and that that hurts your ego. But I think making sure you remind these women that if they stick to the process of what will get them there. If their habits are good, are they taking care of themselves? Their sleep, their hydration, their nutrition, their meditation. Are they getting the repetitions in your entire woods would say like he wouldn't leave that driving range without making sure he got like 1200 repetitions if it was putting, shipping hitting. Are you doing the work and keep yourself accountable? Like if you're doing the work and you're sticking to the process, that defines your success or not. Brian has really helped our team, I think, with his well-better how mentality where like at the end of a tournament, at the end of a day, you know, what did you do well? What can I do better? And how can I improve? And if you make sure you're always reflecting is huge. I love the well-better how framework. I think one of the superpowers coaches have is the ability to forecast. They can see stuff before their athletes eventually experience it for themselves. So I'd be curious if for the coaches out there listening, what have you noticed when it comes to forecasting and seeing some signs and symptoms that, ooh, this player might be susceptible to falling into the identity trap or falling into om results over everything? What are some early signs or symptoms? Because I think if we can understand some of these things, maybe we can get ahead of it as coaches, no matter what sport it is. So if you're to forecast, what are some things when you see, you're like, ooh, that's something we need to correct, we need to talk about, or I can see that spiraling if we don't coach it up. What comes to your mind on signs and symptoms there? Oh, the biggest one is when you hear a player or you're having a meeting with a player and they're so outcome focused where they're like, oh, I have to finish in the top five this week, or I need to win this tournament, blah, blah, blah, so subjective. So I love the framework of what Brian Kane teaches about the little Russian dolls, right, like dissecting and making these telescope goals into microscope goals. So instead of a player just focusing so much on their outcome, let's break it down. Like, okay, in order for you to get a top five, what do we need to do today? What do we need to do this week? What do we need to do this month in order to achieve those goals? So I think when they start talking outcome, outcome, outcome, like, and this is something I've learned too, it's like, we can't just be talking about winning the national championship. Like the national championship for us is in five months. It's like, woohoo, but like, we gotta tackle today, what can we do better? And then another thing besides being outcome driven in their, in their verbiages, also I think body language. You see it so much on whether or not a player is nervous, not confident, anxious, even before we get to the tournament, before we get on the road, like you see whether or not, and for women, it's, it's always emotional, maybe they're struggling in school, maybe they're having a boyfriend issue, a girlfriend issue, or maybe they're just, they haven't got the practice time that they need to feel good, the repetitions. And so making sure that you help them schedule properly, so that way then you can also, if their body language is down, you can also be like, hey, like, what's going on? Like, you do it okay? Check in with them. Because usually something's wrong if someone's body language is down and low. And then also just reminding them, like, about their self-talk, like you can, you, that also goes with their body language. Like you can tell their, their self-talk is probably pretty darn bad if their body language. So I'd say those are the key things that, that we really try to hit with our kids and paying attention to them. You have to be as a coach, you have to be so present, just to be aware of like what's going on with them, especially women, because we, we're crazy sometimes. I want to double click on the mic. Totally. And the time of the month, maybe. Just kidding. Let's, let's go, let's talk about self-talk because I think that's a huge part of it. When I think about golf, I think about there's a lot of time in the sport where you're by yourself, and you have a moment where the talk can either be what I call a "witter's voice" or a "winer's voice." It can either be by design or by default. And I'm curious, what type of, because from my understanding with golf is that you don't get a chance to talk to these athletes a lot throughout the tournament. It's kind of limited on how much that you can speak to them and correct me if I'm wrong on that. What are some of the things that you want your athletes saying to themselves when you can't be the one that's saying it to them? Well, they have to have be disciplined and strong enough to first realize that they're having bad self-talk and then rectify it and change it. I mean, so that is the number one thing, is like they have to be mentally strong enough to be able to really change it. But you see this, like, perfect example, like a couple months ago, Scotty Shepler, Katty came out and talked about, you know, he didn't want to work with him because Scotty Shepler kind of was like a butt head on the PJ tour, was always kind of having temper tantrums, bad body language, and boom, like look at the, look at the piece where Scotty Shepler then now gets this amazing new Katty who can reinforce positive self-talk, confidence, also not living and dying with every shot in Scotty Shepler is up there with Tiger Woods in the record books of winning everything, right? And so I think with my players, you know, you have to be a positive influence. I think as coaches, like we already know these kids are hard on themselves, everybody, even my husband, like at home, like sometimes you can be so hard on themselves, so it's like, we need to be that soft place for them to lift them up, to encourage them, but also let them know, like, hey, like you're doing good, but I know you can do better. But on the golf course for me, I try to make sure me and my assistants, like we are consistent, animals for them, like they always know that coach lore is going to be a practice. I'm always going to have a smile on my face. I'm always going to be, you know, cheering them on. I'm always going to be also there watching them. Are they doing the right thing? And encouraging, trying to make sure that my words, because words matter so much, is that things that come out of my mouth are going to uplift these kids and not tear them down. Because we don't know also what they're getting at home, like, you know, not every parent is like, oh, I'm so proud of you and happy for you, like, you know, so I make sure my staff here is always a supportive, but, but as for like, it's like, how do you motivate somebody? You can't. They have to be motivated. They have to be disciplined enough to like do it themselves, but I think, you know, they got the devil, you got the angel. And I just remind them like, which one do you want to listen to? And then another thing I always say to the women about positive self-talk is women, we need friends. Like, we all have like, we love relationships. I think more so than men, maybe, maybe not, but I always say, if you were, if you were cadding for your best friend, how would you talk to them as they're playing golf? Okay. You would never be like, you suck, terrible shot, like what we thinking, like if you're cadding for your best friend, how would you speak to them? You know, so that's the way you should speak to yourself. I always, always kind of stay at that way too. I love that. I like this framework coach of your outer voice becomes their inner voice. And I say that to coaches when I'm doing keynotes all the time is to be aware of your outer voice because the words and the questions that you continually say and ask are going to be the words, phrases, or questions that they continually say in their head. So be really mindful about the things you're saying out loud. What I'd be curious to hear from you to dive a little bit deeper is, and in moments of struggle, when you see an athlete struggling on the course. How do you decide whether an athlete needs technical support or emotional support? How do you know if they need a question or a cue or if they just need space? How can you decide upon that and perhaps how can my coaches be better at knowing which one the athlete needs? That's such a good question. Oh my gosh. I never really, really thought about that. In golf, most of the time, our ladies need to know that we are always there for if they need us. And so we always have a system where if they want help, if they need us in the middle of fairway, they always are to call us over and we'll kind of move in there like a caddy. But as for, you know, I think as a coach, you have to have a standard and you have to have, I always say to my ladies, like it's a non-negotiable, you have to have good energy and you have to have as Brian, like to say, you have to have juice. If you're juiceless, you're useless. And so I love that. I think if we see a player out on the golf course and they have no juice, that is when I instantly we intervene and we like try to help build them up because you can see that they have lost their momentum or lost their confidence. But if you see a player that has juice that's in flow, more than anything as a coach on the golf course, you're trying to stay out of their way. But make sure they see you, they know you're there and give them a high five, do what you need to do to make sure that like they know they have, have you in their back, right? So so much of that, I guess what you're saying is it's so much, it's dictated on our standard body language. If I see a player throwing a club or hitting themselves in the thigh, that's not acceptable. That's not acceptable for Laura and Lowe's team and that's not acceptable for Texas when it's golf. And so I think as a coach, you have to absolutely make sure that your team knows the standard and Jim Schlaasnagel, I mean, he's here at Texas baseball, I mean, his kids know cell phones are not allowed in the locker room. How many coaches in this country can say they don't allow cell phones in the locker room, but there's a standard. So I think as a coach, that's what you got to do. Talk to me about what does that conversation look like when they are struggling and you decide to intervene? What does that look like? You use the word confidence and I think confidence is something that gets floated around a lot, especially in mental performance, especially in golf. What have you learned about confidence in particular? What have you learned about trying to increase the confidence of your women? Well, we've really been working on this. Confidence is a choice. It's not a feeling. It's not an emotion and a way to build your confidence is through repetition. So I think when I have a player that you visibly can see that is lacking in confidence, as a coach, again, we're there to remind them, hey, trust that you've done the work. You've done the work. Believe in yourself that little extra voice that they need. I'd say that's what we do. But more importantly, I think all most of the work that we do in golf is at home. It's home before we get to that tournament. And so again, I think that's on our shoulders as coaches, my assistance is when we're at home, making sure that the ladies are, when we're playing, we're out of the golf course, they're going through their routines. They're sticking to what they need to do. The system that works for them in a tournament, we have to be making sure we're mimicking that and improving it day by day, because what's the saying? Your only is good is your preparation today. And so what are you doing extra to elevate your preparation? For Kobe Bryant, it was, he was going to wake up at 3 a.m., and he was going to work out before 6 a.m., and then he was going to work out and have practices three days a week. But he didn't do that until towards the end of his career. So it's like you always have to be leveling up. But as for our kids with confidence, it's a tough one. It really is. But I think just making sure that they know that it is a choice in that fake it almost until you make it. Or what is it? I can't remember what baseball player has under his hat every day. He has the letters A, written under his word, and acting changes everything. And because it's true, if you act confident and you have good body language, pretty much you're going to be pretty confident. A part of confidence is being able to respond to adversity and in a game like golf. Oh my gosh, there's so much adversity throughout the weekend to you coach. What does a great response look like after a bad hole or a bad round or even a tough stretch? What do you like to coach? What do you like to see in his response? Of course, like statistically, we want to see you respond and put the ball where it needs to be. But for more of a mental or psychological standpoint, what do you see or what do you coach to have a great response? Yeah, this is something that we see and we look for a ton in recruiting. Because this is something you can take day early in an athlete on whether or not they have the ability to bounce back as we call. Like if you have, you know, if you're four under par through 12 holes and you take a triple bogey, then a double bogey, like, okay, what are you going to do those last three holes? Are you just continuing to spiral how's your body language? Like, are you looking at your parents? Are you, you know, are you kind of like in depression mode? Like, how do you change or do you have the ability to get on that next T-box? Do your breath work? Like a deep breath, reset, go through your routine, visualize, focus, that's the most important thing is just, you know, kind of like just erasing the past or erasing what just happened and just know like, no, I'm going to go back to what works for me and just have a complete reset. So I think that is something when our ladies, if they've had like a bad stretch, like just reminding them like, hey, get into your breathing, clear your mind, make sure you're visualizing what you want to see, assess the conditions, you know, the wind, where's the pin on this hole? Like from what side of the T-box go back to just, I mean, really the system that works for you, that you were using when you were four under because you haven't lost it. Like, the wheels have not come up, there's that, that, that saying like, oh, the wheels are coming off. Well, the wheels are coming off because your, your mind has changed this way of thinking from when you were playing four under to now you're two over, right? So just reminding them like, go back to your system. If an athlete or even a coach is listening, because I think this relates to coaches too, it's easy to say kids are spiraling or we need to help the kids be able to reset and refocus. And of course, yes, but sometimes coaches do too. And no matter what sport we're talking about, sometimes things start to spiral. We get away from ourselves, emotions start to carry coach. What do you think is your best tip to coaches of any sport to help them reset, refocus in the midst of an emotional game, whether it be basketball, football, golf, tennis. How can we be better at resetting, refocusing and getting back to where we need to be in that green zone in the middle of it as a coach? Oh, well, you better, you better surround yourself with some phenomenal assistant coaches and people that you trust that know you in and out to get you back to being level headed. So it's all about the people that you surround yourself with. And so making sure that you have those people that can also notice when you're not on your A game and that you are okay with them, telling you like snap out of it coach, like you're being a jerk and you need to like take a moment, adding, putting yourself in an environment where you have other coaches that are working with you that can hold you accountable is so important because if you are a head coach, that things you know at all and think that your assistants are just an extension of you and your expertise that's below me because I love it. I love having assistant coaches because I feel like you can always learn something from someone and someone can always bring value to you and just like I pray that my assistant coaches say that they've learned from me and that I brought value to their life. Yeah. So I think that for sure is making sure you surround yourself but also coaches need coaches. And so 2000 and probably 21 coming out of COVID, you know, having two young kids, my husband gave me a mother's day gift and it was the, he got me a coach. He got me a coach because I was in that flux of do I want to keep coaching? Do I want to be a mom? Do I want to do something else? I kind of had lost my joy coming out of COVID because I was home with my kids more and I was like maybe this working mom thing sucks and maybe why am I killed, you know, but then. So I started working with coach Darley in Santor coach, Dar and yeah, so I've worked with coach Dar and coach Dar was instrumental on me understanding my personality of like what I need, who I need, what type of people I need in my life and then also like my wine. Why do I coach? Why do I love it? And it's because I love kids, I love pouring into people, I need people in my life, I love it. And so like if I wasn't coaching, like how was I going to get that? And so she was instrumental. So I think, you know, and now working with Brian Kane with my team, I think you have to continue to always look for ways to keep improving and don't just be like, you know, I want a national championship, I know it all. No, it's not, I can, I can continue to learn from, from everybody and anybody, even if it's my neighbor or if it's like Jim Schloss nagel with Texas baseball, who now is preparing for this conversation. I called Brian and I said, man, I'm so excited to talk to coach Laura and I know you guys are working together. What's her superpower? And I've asked this with a couple of coaches that I've worked with that he's worked with on this show. And it's a question I like to ask because usually when I ask a coach that they have a hard time answering it, because they're humble, they don't want to brag about themselves. But coach, I want to tell you what he said, he said coach Laura is one of the most open-minded and willing to learn coaches I've ever been around in the last 20 years of being in the space. Those are big words coming from somebody who's been around some really big time coaches and athletes for him to say, you are the most open-minded and willing to learn coaches, especially at a premier school, especially after winning a national championship. It'd be easy for you not to be in that place. Let's start with just a generic question with that. Where did that come from? And let's take it from there. That's very nice words from Brian Kane to say that about me because I do want to be considered open-minded and always eager to learn. And something that I've firmly believed in my whole life and probably coming from my dad is that to get to the top, to get to be a coach at the University of Texas or get to be the CEO of any company or whatever, to get to where we are in life and to be successful, there's always been people along the way to help you get there. And don't forget that. People have always helped everyone to get to the top. So like we always, always have never gotten there by ourselves. And so making sure that you give back, that you're grateful for all the people that have helped me. Like I didn't get to Texas on my own. It's from my amazing assistant coaches, my parents who taught me the game golf, my coaches, like myself. When I was a kid, there's this group of people that have always helped others, I mean someone has always helped someone get to the top. And so the moment that you forget that someone helped you is the moment that you're probably in a very dark place in life. And so I always try to remind myself like, no, I'm here because I'm blessed and I'm super grateful for that. And so I always am eager to keep getting better, keep learning because I know I can get value from others. How do you teach that monumental lesson to your golfers? Oh, that's some. I think you just, you make sure that they're reminded of all the people in their life. And when they write down their accomplishments, you have to remind them like, would this be possible without your family? Would this be possible without, you know, your high school coach? Would this be possible without that counselor or that therapist maybe who helped you? And I think just reminding them of the people in their lives, because I think sometimes these kids, they're, they get in their own heads, these elite athletes, especially in college when they're trying to make an approach. And it can be a very lonely place. And I think just reminding them, they have this circle of people who love them. They support them and who have also are encouraging and helping them get to the top. And then to, to make sure that they are reaching out, something that our team has been doing is making sure that they're reaching out to each other on the team. Like we have a high five zone, making sure that they know their circle. And then I think also like with Brian Cain bringing him into our team and having our team work with him, I think that it's really open their mind like, wow, I, I should be more open to learning new things, because when you're, one of the best division one golfers in the country and you're ready to turn pro, just like a coach, they kind of think they don't need any more help, they're realizing really quickly like, wow, I, I'm learning so much from this, you know, 30 day MPM program with Brian Cain, so it's been, been really cool. It's, it sounds like a lot of it, you know, starts from the top and the, and the behavior that you model is the behavior that, that your, that your student athletes are going to model. And then one of the things I've really learned from this coaching beyond the scoreboard series, talking to 17 now 18 division one coaches, probably the number one theme coach that I've pulled from all these episodes is that you need to model the behavior that you want from your student athletes. And so if you were to work backwards, one of the things I'll ask coaches, if we all can agree on that is to fill in this blank and I'll have you do it here on the spot. The blank is this. If I want my team to be blank, I need to be blank. And the idea is we reverse engineer. So if I want my team to be blank, I need to be blank and those blanks need to be the same. There's probably five or six things that you could put in those blanks, but what comes to mind first is the top priority. If I want my team to be strong, I need to be strong. And when I mean strong, I mean like fit, fit, healthy, eating the right things, hydrating, taking care of myself, my mental. So something that has really changed for me when we won in 2018, I was super fit, I was running all the time, boom, you know, you have kids, women, we can kind of lose ourselves a little bit. And then I would say the last three years, I really, really upped my game with my fitness, my mental game, all that stuff, I think as a 45 year old woman, making sure that I demonstrate to these young athletes, like, hey, if I can run two miles under 15 minutes, like don't you dare tell me that you can't run one mile under 10 minutes. I think setting that tone, setting that example that's standard for excellence in self-care because I think golf gets this bad reputation where we're like, we're not athletes, you know, higher woods change that, you know, 25 years ago and then now you're seeing so much on social media with Scotty and Jordan's feet and all these great, they are taking care, roaring macaroni, like Nelly Corda, like and so yeah, and so I tell my women, like if you don't like working out, then you don't really want to be great or if you don't love taking care of yourself or if you're not going to be willing to do back physical therapy or taking care of your shoulders, doing all the things that you need to do, guess what? And then you're fooling yourself when you say you want to be great, so I say strong would be my word. And it's really hard to ask our athletes to be fit, to be in shape, to lift the weights, do the running, if you're not doing it, it's like it's contradictory to what you're trying to get across the point. And I think as coaches, we're modeling machines. I mean we're constantly modeling how to respond to failure, if we're open minded, then they're going to want to be open. I mean we're constantly looking at us for how we're supposed to act and how they're supposed to act. And the better coaches can think about that, that every decision you make is you modeling the behavior that you want to see from your student athletes. I think it's huge. Another thing is like, you know, you see sometimes the mixed messages, the mixed signals out there. Hey, I want my team to be calm during moments of chaos. You look at the coach and they are the opposite of it. So there's a there's a distraction here. It doesn't line up. There's some misalignment here. And so the more coaches can really understand that we're modeling machines and whatever you want from your team is also something that you got to you got to display as well. Another question sometimes I'll ask and this one hits a little bit harder is if we agree that we're an alignment and they are a physical manifestation of us as coaches. I'll ask this coach, I'll say, what do you not like about your team and how can you change that in yourself? And you don't need to answer that, but it's just something to consider. What do you not like in your team and how can you change in yourself knowing that there's alignment between how you act and how they act? What are your thoughts on that? Oh, I want my team to know how great they are. Because I think I have a championship team here at Texas, but I don't think they truly fully believe in how great they are and how amazing they really are. And so I think that's part of the reason also why we started using the MPM Brankane system was because it's going to help these women identify like they are doing the right things. They are staying present. They are having good body language. They're having the juice. They're having all the things. So like, wow, they're actually, they're doing, they have what it takes to be great. So part of this process with working with them and Brian is making sure that they realize just how great they are and believing it, you know, confidence is a choice. I don't care. Fake it. Be confident on that first T. Like, even if you're nervous and you feel like you want to run to the bathroom, like, believe it. So that's huge. And that starts from the top. You're the perfect person to do that coach. I firmly believe that. I want to talk a little bit about team culture. I've had some coaches that have wanted me to ask you a little bit. This is such a, it's, there's a lot of ways we can go. I could probably write a book on this, but I'm curious about the lessons you've learned. Specifically, you're in an individual sport that has team results and you have that dichotomy back and forth. And I think there's a lot of coaches out there that are in a lot of, are in several interdependent mouthful sports. That's struggle with this. It's like we have this individual component. We have this team component. I'm supposed to be this coach that puts all this together and creates this successful culture. You've done this for 18 years. What are some lessons you've learned about creating a successful team culture, even though there are individual components? Well, that is why I always say, like you will be polite and kind. I got that from Dr. Lorch Lesinger. So that has like, that has always been like my number one rule. And so therefore, I said, if we are going to win as a team, if you're going to continue and win championships, I said, you have to be each other's biggest cheerleaders. I said, in a team culture, you can never be jealous or envious of someone else's success. And if you are, you are not a good team player. If you have any moment of jealousy because, you know, maybe, you know, Johnny beat Timmy by two shots and like, it's okay to want yourself to do better. But I said, if you genuinely are not happy for your own teammate, then that is a huge problem. And so I think making sure that everybody truly fully understands that, you know, the better that your teammates do helps the team. And like the number one goal is for the team to have success. But yet, we are going to celebrate everyone's individual successes. You know, if one of my players wins a tournament or if we have a couple players getting top tens, like, we need to celebrate those individual things. But it said, at the end of the day, you have to really want the team to have success. And if you don't and you're only in it for your individual accolades, you are done. How do you sniff that out early on? Oh, you can sense it. You, because like, you, you could just see it when you're in a team huddle, when you're in a team environment. And you, you could just see it with facial expressions, body language, just, just so many different things, you just, if you're just aware of the surroundings, you can totally tell if someone is happy. Like, I mean, just as much as giving that player a big hug and a high five, you know, whether or not that's not there is detrimental to a program. Like, I think that, that is it. Like you have to make sure everybody's on board for the team success, whether or not they got beat by a teammate or not. But it's, um, but again, if, if you're the coach and you witness that behavior, you have to privately be able to communicate with that player, but like, Hey, like what's going on? Like you, you didn't seem yourself after the tournament, like the team did great. But it said, like, you, you seemed off what's, what's going on? I think you have to over communicate and just make sure you know where their headspace is. And maybe that person on the team with that person is having a conflict and you need to be able to like dissect what that is. And then as a coach, you can't really quite get in there, but you can also, you can give solutions to how to mend relationships, especially on the female side, because it's most of the time we act like women or women. We act like chicks. And so it's usually there's something so stupid, you know, like, oh, she ate my protein bar. I would assume that in 18 years, this has probably come up with time or two where you've had an individual rely more on their success than the team success. Be more what I call me over we don't have to get into names or specifics, but can you walk us through because I think there's some coaches out there who are like, man, I'm going through that right now coach. Can you walk through either a story or a lesson or a framework on kind of how you battled through that and how coach is listening can help go through that? Yeah, after 17 years, yeah. I think to be honest with you, if you have one player, I can remember probably one of my first years in coaching, we didn't qualify for the National Championship as a team, but we had an individual qualify and you could really tell that the team was not happy for her because they as a team, we had missed it, you know, but I think something that I did was I made sure that the team really, really celebrated her success, the one that was qualifying and going off to the National Championship, but yeah, also reminding the team that it's okay to be disappointed, like we as a team, we didn't have the success. I said, you know, I think that's a really hard question, DJ. I'm trying to think of what I've done, but I think you also have to be realistic in just saying like, you know, our team didn't make didn't meet their expectation, it didn't meet the standard and it's okay to be upset, but, you know, let's make sure we absolutely, you know, congratulate this person for qualifying or doing doing really well or it's a hard one, but I think you have to lead. We as the leaders, we have to make sure we show that in making sure that we have the team celebrate as a leader, make sure everybody understands, like, no, this is a really big deal. This person is qualified for the National Championship and yet as a team, we didn't, but that's okay. Let's build a plan for next year of how we're going to do better and how we're going to grow. It seems like polite and kind and we over me, encouraging, supportive, these are all things that are very important to you. When you're in the recruiting process and you're trying to figure out if this girl is going to be a fit in that type of a program that fits those specific pillars, that really, those specific pillars have nothing to do with the physical side of the game. Yes, you're looking for specific metrics, I understand, but if we were to table those for a second, how do you, how do you sniff those out? Like if we're sitting at a kitchen table, we're talking to a, to an athlete, you're trying to decide if she's a fit or not and you're really, you're really focused in on, I need to make sure that she's about the team and not about herself. What are some things you're like, you're paying attention to or you're listening for? Are there specific questions that you're asking to see if this is a right fit? Because you choose the roster, which is the great part of being in a college space. So if you choose somebody who doesn't fit the mold of we over me, it's kind of back on you. So what ways do you sniff that out when you're in the recruiting process? Well, in part of the recruiting process is you, you want to know if they have played on other sports. If they've, if they've ever played team sports because if they've never played team sports, they have no aspect of team, so you can't just expect them to join the team and understand what team is about. So I think having played a team sport, even if they were 10 or 12, playing soccer or whatever, that's really, really important. Part of the reason why you see a lot of international players in golf coming to the US for college is because we recruit a lot of international players because they're on these national teams, like the Swedish national team, the Spanish national team. So they're already traveling as a team with their coaches the way from the parents. So they kind of already have this maturity of them before they get here compared to the Americans. The Americans did just start a national team, which is great. So I've had, they've been part of the USA national team. I think another big piece is in college athletics when you're in elite program, friends recruit friends. So I think you need to make sure that the person that you're having joined the team probably knows the team, or you've given them the opportunity on a visit to get to know the team, and you can kind of, as a coach, you just have to watch the dynamics, like either at your football game or your out to dinner, is this young person able to engage in conversation? Are they asking good questions? I think are they excited about the team element? That is so much like if it's, if it's just like, this is what me and my mom and dad want to do. And they're just strictly focused on like, this is there to process and they don't really care about the team, like just by what they're talking about and you can pick it up. That's what I do solely in the recruiting. And then if you get a kid, you know, we don't, we with sometimes as coaches on the recruits that we bring in and you might think you have this team player and, and you don't. And then, you know, Sally, they're usually not a good fit and you help them go to a different institution, you know, so it is what it is. I could imagine in 17, 18 years there's been some difficult conversations. What's the greatest lesson you've learned about having difficult conversations? They're so hard to have, but they have to be had and clear is kind. And I think that's the most important thing is making sure if you are going to have a very difficult conversation with somebody that you do it in a humanitarian way where you make sure that that person never feels insulted. You make sure that they are always supported, but yet also the conversation has been clear and making sure the message has been, and I think also just being completely honest with the person, if it's a coach or if it's a student athlete or anybody is just, you know, these are the expectations, this is the expectations. This is how you need to meet them. This is how you've not met them. Just a clear plan, like I said, clear is kind, but there's nothing worse than having those really hard conversations, but then again, as a leader, it is what it is. Like, you are the one to do that. Clear is kind. I like it. Coach, you've been coaching collegiate golf for nearly two decades. What's something that you're sure of at this point in your career? What's something you've changed your mind on since the beginning of your career? So in 2026, what's something you're more sure of now than ever when it comes to coaching? What's something you've changed your mind on over the last 20 years? Oh, I'd say when I first started coaching, I had this expectation that every player that walked through my door, they needed to play professional golf in that. I was going to be the answer of why they need to play professional golf. And I think now, you know, so many years in, I've learned that, you know, professional golf is the way for some athletes and that's what their future holds. But then for other players, you know, competing at a very, very high level in college and going off and being in business or being a mom or being a CEO is also a really other healthy way to go about it. Not everyone has to play professional golf. I think, you know, when you come in as a new coach, you're in it. You're going to change the world and you're going to get all your players to reach their fullest potential and, but you have to realize that's not what you think is their fullest potential. You have to help them with what their vision is for their life. And if they want to pursue professional golf, boom, I'm all in to help them. And if they want to just compete at college at the highest level, then boom, that's Michael for them. Or if they want to go off and be an attorney or a CPA, then boom, I'm going to help them make clients on the golf course and teach them life skills and how to do that. You mentioned that that was early in your career where you had the belief system of they need to go pro. What did that holding on to that belief? What did that cost you or what did that cost your athletes? Well, I've changed so much in my 17 years where I think, you know, I definitely was not as flexible in my first year, a couple years as coaching. And again, becoming a parent helped me find that, I guess, harmony. I don't like to say that we're balanced because there's no such thing as balance in life. I say harmony, but yeah, I think just also, I would get to the point where I would think a walk on should be on the LPJ tour and I'm like, you know what, that's okay. Like she's here to have a great experience, be it practice, be a great team member, help with community service hours, and then she's going to go off and be a badass with Apple or Google or whoever, you know, and that's great. And she can put on her resume that she knows how to be a team player and that's, that's good too. Yeah. How does that show up in your day to day? How does that show up in your day to day coaching, knowing that now you're at this place, this is more enlightened place of more harmony thinking about, hey, this isn't just to go pro. Like, how does that change day to day? Well, it shows up day to day because I think over the years, I've gotten so much better at making sure I know my players better than ever. I think my first couple of years in coaching, you, at least I did not do the real personal investment that I needed to do. And I think as I've gotten older, I think making sure that I truly know my athletes, knowing what these women want, what motivates them, what frustrates them, and working with them to build a system for them because everybody is so different and golf is so different for everybody. I think that is something that I have changed over the years that, if someone sits down with me and we build a strategic plan on how to help them get to the LPJ tour compared to, maybe another player is, how can I make the line up, making sure that it is so individual, individualized and individual based instead of just, there's this one way everybody is going to play pro golf and that's the way, and making sure I have, like again, a very open-minded on what people need. Very cool. Last question. So this is the coaching beyond the scoreboard series, and I've been asking the same kind of ending question for all the coaches. And so the question goes like this coach, what's either, you can go two different paths, what's the greatest piece of advice that you'd want to give to coaches listening, or what's the greatest piece of advice a coach has given you that you want to pass to our coaches? Wow. I think as a coach, gosh, I've been given so much great advice over my time, but I think something as coaches need to know is that I always, I have this saying, it's always something. It's always something, literally. It's always something. I think in life, you're sailing, you're cruising, life is good, but then something pops up. There's always something, and, but just knowing that as coaches, we have the ability to do hard things and to move past it in every walk of life. I think just know it's always something, because we're prepared for it. And even if we're not prepared for it, we will find a way to be prepared for it. And so if you have that mentality of life where you just know something is always coming good or bad, and you can flow with it, you're going to be in a better place. So I think just remind yourself, it's always something, but how we respond to that, what is it, the E plus R equals O, you know, kind of same mentality. It's always something, but with that, we're going to grow from it. Coach, this is so much fun. How can my listeners best support you in your program? Just follow Texas Women's Golf. We'll be at the SEC Championship this April. I believe it's going to be on the SEC Network tune in and just encourage athletes everywhere. I think the more that you can support your universities, your athletes, get engaged, hopefully Texas Women's Golf will be hoisting the national championship back in May, but it can't be focusing on the outcome. You know, what we're going to do day to day, but just give back. And I think too, as coaches, make sure you're helping in any way you can to mentor and to help others and be polite and kind coach. Thank you so much for being a part of this special coaching beyond the scoreboard series. It's been great to get to know you and you've got a new Texas fan over here. So welcome. And thank you for being here. Thanks, DJ likewise and good luck with everything you're doing too. Are you an athlete that's curious about how to build your mental game? You know the importance of having a strong mindset, but you just aren't sure the correct steps to get there. I've got you covered. I just released a free 60 minute master class where I peel back the curtain and give you an inside look at my favorite drills, skills and strategies for you to attack the gap from where you are now to where you want to be. So we're to DJHillier.com/masterclass so you can start your journey in learning how to use your mindset to your advantage.