Clayton Echard: Speaking His Truth on the Paternity Scandal

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I've already walked through the fire, right? Like, I've already done this once. I already know how to navigate this. Welcome to the Bravo Docket. We're a favorite reality TV drama meets the courtroom. I'm Sessie, and I'm Angela, and we're two attorneys with a passion for pop culture here to dive into the juiciest lawsuits and legal battles in the world of reality TV. Whether you're here for the facts, fun, or just some law 101, let's get into today's case. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Bravo Docket. We have probably one of our most exciting episodes ever. I'm so excited to get into this and speak with you. We have Clayton Eckerd, former bachelor, and unfortunate victim of Laura Owens in the paternity scandal. We've spoken about this a lot. I mean, thank you for agreeing to come on. We are so excited to get your perspective on this. Yeah, thanks, guys, for covering the case. Every bit of eyes on this has helped out tremendously. The community involvement has gotten us to where this is and without it. I probably would be even more in debt, and I'd probably be in a lot worse position. So I just, if you guys cover it, and yeah, we'll talk about all the juicy stuff today. We're excited. Yeah, my lawyer doesn't know that I'm on here, and I'll think so. He's like, what are you doing talking to two lawyers? Like you, that's a death toll. I'm like, hey, we're lawyers. We're not your lawyer. We can just provide some general legal context. Yeah, we're also into the tea. So yeah, we have tea. We're full lawyers. Yeah, he's a cool guy. Yeah, yeah, no, I got, I got plenty of tea. I've been getting a little bit more bold with my recent podcast. I used to safeguard what I would say. We were talking about this before you hit record, but talking about how like the bachelor made me feel like I needed to be this very proper professional person. This is not me. And it's like I could do it, but it was a facade. It was like, this is what I'm being told to be. And so now I'm like, oh, I can start letting it fly a bit. And people seem to like my dry humor, like my sarcasm. So yeah, I'll put a put out a little bit for you guys. You know, that's sort of similar to being a lawyer. Yeah. When we first started the podcast, we got a lot of negative reviews being like, you guys can't be lawyers because we would just joke and laugh. And we have personalities outside of being the court. And we got a lot of support from fellow lawyers, which is one of the things we were most worried about. Hey, lawyers are people too. And you can have an interest in reality TV and still be very, very smart. And reality TV fans are smart. And looking at the justice for Clayton subreddit, which is when we got contacted, I think by Dave Neal, who told us about this case and what was going on. And I went on Reddit and started searching the internet. And I was like, this is insane. This is crazy. And the way the internet slew got so into it, going through and creating timelines and websites. Because one thing that universally people agree on is that they want things to be fair. And what was happening to you when the evidence was coming in was so unfair. And it's been a long saga. This is the long thing. Yeah, that's bad. You're right. I mean, the community has been incredible. Even with this podcast now, Stephanie, the one that's producing it, she's writing all the podcasts. She's done an incredible job. I mean, the way that she's tied it all together. But she also gives a plenty of credit. She's like, look, I walked in. And in what scenario do you walk in, where the story has already been transcribed and written and pieced together, like by fact, by fact, by fact. So she's like, I would go on justice for Clayton website. And it's just like there's a timeline. And that's super helpful. It is very helpful. Because even that timeline is more accurate than I am. Because I've lived it for three years. So I couldn't tell you when the dates were and what happened first. It's like, OK, when she took things public, what was happening behind the scenes at the same time. Like I lose track, because it's just so much stuff. But that's where the community is just like they've dove in. They're not getting paid for it. I mean, they're doing it all on their free time. And they also have eyes on her at all times. So when she was starting, she's always been lying. When she lies, they catch her right away. She did a name change, and they caught her on the same day. I was like, this is incredible. Because I couldn't suffocate her to this degree like they are. And again, that's what we're trying to do is trying to basically stop her from doing this. She changed her name, and I wasn't paying attention. And there wasn't an audience online. Like she would have gotten away. They'd switched her name up, and then could have just kept going with her tactics. So it's been incredible. I never would have thought that this community would come together. They didn't come together for me. I mean, people do want to suggest to be served. That was part of it. But the major part of it that I've realized is people all came together because she triggered them by faking something that they actually went through. So faking like a, or faking like a miscarriage, or she's claimed she's had cancer, she's claimed she's been abused, physical abuse, so domestic abuse. And people have actually went through that or have all come in and be like, you know what? I've actually went through this. You know, so this pisses me off. So she's united everybody with her evil, which I find to be really, really interesting. Go ahead and give the name of the podcast just for our listeners in case they're not aware of it. Yeah, it's called Love Trap. So it's on, wherever you get your podcast, it's doing very well right now. And I think again, I think it's doing so well because well, there's just a community involvement. So of course, you have the community propping it up by them all actively engaging with it. But it's also a story of just honesty, transparency. And I think that's in today's world we're so tired of looking online at things that aren't actually real. Now we have AI, so it's like now we have stuff that's just straight up not real. But then we have everyone put not facades of like their incredible lives when they don't show like the true like behind the scenes. This is just a real story. It really has forced me to grow up. And so I see it as a positive. So I'm glad I've went through it. And it's brought to light the other victims. And now they're getting accountability and justice that they never had received. And they were hopeless for many years. So it's all for a good. Since you mentioned the other victims, I wanted to bring that up in the legal motions. In your case, we know of at least four, including you, right? There's a 2014 victim. And then Michael Marincini, which was 2016. And these are all victims of Laura Owens. And then Greg Gillespie, am I pronouncing his name right? Is it Gillespie? - Right. - Yeah. And then you were the fourth victim. I think there were more, no. - There's definitely one more. With the county attorney and then investigators, they came out with reports. And she was intimate with somebody before and after her and I hooked up. - That's right. I remember the hell. - Yeah. - Is he a victim? I mean, like he cooperated with investigators. I don't think she targeted him, but she was certainly, she was intimate. - Well, you were the more exciting target, right? He hadn't been on the bachelor. So. - Yeah, the interesting part was was like, she had sex with him before and after we hooked up. So the question was was she trying to get pregnant by him? - Mm-hmm. - I think that was yours. - And then it's fine. - Yeah. - Yeah. So that was interesting when that report came out because it was like, I always thought that was what she was going to end up doing was like, hey, in order for her story to be bought because right now people are questioning her. So for her to be believed, she needs to actually get pregnant. So I'm like, this is going to be the dangerous thing and she's going to get pregnant. Do the ultrasound prove that she has kids or a kid, but she'll never do the paternity test. If she did that, that would have honestly been her best play because she could have then had a miscarriage, took pills or whatever to force a miscarriage, but then like, I had a miscarriage and then you know, but like that, but I had his kids and she would have the ultrasounds in the proof to show that she actually was pregnant and just avoided a paternity test. So she's that's where she screwed up. She should have went there because when she that was early on like she still had that chance to be pregnant when she went public and people weren't believing her. But I guess she didn't want to take it to that extent. From one person to the next, she would always refine her game. Yeah, we noticed that. We noticed that we have covered this a bit, but for those people who are coming in and learning about this case for the first time, do you want to explain how this all started? What happened here? Yeah, yeah, I'll give the quickest version I can. Because I'm long winded, but this is what, okay, so she reached out to me on LinkedIn, stating she wanted to purchase some properties. She was looking to some investment properties. I got my license less than a month prior to that point. So she reaches out. I was naive. I thought, hey, I was a bachelor. This makes sense. People will be reaching out to me for business. So I connected with her gave my, my information, my cell phone. She starts texting me. She's flirtatious right out the gate. So I kept it professional. Until one night, I was very high. And I was using marijuana at the time to cope with some stuff from the bachelor. I still get high, but I don't use it to cope so much anymore. I just like it. But I decided to get high this night. And while I was on the influence, she was texting me and she was being flirtatious. And I wasn't really biting until she sent me this video. She sent it by her horse. And she had a nice ass. I'll avoid it. And so I told her to come over. And she was kind of shocked at first. And she's like, really? I was like, yeah. So she came over. And then we hung out, talked for a couple hours, and we hooked up. We didn't have sex. She performed oral and me twice. And she stayed the night, woke up the next morning, and then we went and saw homes. Then I brought her into my car. And then I told her at the end of the showings, I said, hey, that was a mistake last time. I crossed a professional boundary. I'll pass you off to another one of my agents. I'm sorry I shouldn't have done that. She was like, no, no, no, no, I really like you. I think you're an awesome person. But maybe would you be open to dating? And I was just like, no, I don't want to date. That was one time thing. I get I'm sorry. And she started crying. And I was like, OK, this is weird. I just met this girl. She's crying. And she's begging me to date her. And after 20 minutes of begging me, I finally just said, Laura Nomins, stop asking me. And then that's when I saw the switch flip. When I say the switch flip, it was like, that's when the darkness overtook her. And she was normal up until that point. Minus the crying over somebody you just met. But like, she was normal. I would never have thought there was anything wrong with this individual. I just remember her eyes went black. They didn't actually go black. But I can tell you like that was the darkest energy I've ever felt in my life. And I-- Yeah. You got out of my car. And I was like, I don't know what that was, but that's not the end of it. And then 11 days later, she sent me a positive pregnancy test. And then it just became years of her harassing me and trying to give me to date her through faking her pregnancy. How's that? That was a decent-- That was great. That was a great summary. And our listeners, not only is there the Love Trap podcast, we've had I think four previous episodes through or four where we go into detail on the civil case, the background of that. And then we have episodes-- I can't remember it's one or two on the criminal case that's going on. So you guys can go back and listen to all of that. Again, get on the internet. If you want all of the details, like we've talked about, there's websites, timelines, screenshots, receipts, all of it. Have you looked at her website, her justice for Laura Owens website? I think it would look like once. Yeah. I clicked on it and just kind of shook my head and then clicked off. I mean, at this point, it doesn't really incite me because she's done so much stuff that I'm like, what's a stupid little website going to do at this point? Because I don't really understand where her goal is. I think she's trying to reshape the narrative online. So if you Google her, she's trying to get it. So that'll be the first thing that pops up so that she's seen as a victim. But I don't think she can override the SEO of how many people are clicking on all the other articles. No one's going to click on her website. Not to the degree that they are clicking on her being the perpetrator. So I think she's trying to obviously pay herself as the victim if she can win over the SEO, but she doesn't say no chance. When we looked at it-- because we were trying to figure out what her defenses are going to be to her criminal case, I think we both agree that she's probably never going to take a plea deal because she's going to have to admit she did something wrong. And it just seems like that would be impossible with the way her brain currently appears to work. I don't know if she did. She was offered one. Yeah. It expired, right? That's what happened. It expired. It expired. 30th. We thought it expired on the 24th. It was supposed to, but they gave him extension, I believe. OK. 30th is the last egg. So we wanted to have to my birthday. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I've always been wrong. I say this. I've always been wrong when I've offered up a prediction as to what she'll do. I do agree with you that I don't think she has the capacity to admit wrongdoing, but when faced with like, hey, you may go to prison, or you could just accept that you were wrong. I mean, because somebody had mentioned that there's a scenario, I think, outward plea or something. Maybe it's not that. Or you could accept the charges, but never have to admit fault. But she can't do that in the state of Arizona, because that's not-- But alpharply is generally where you admit that the state, or the government, has enough evidence to convict you. And so you agree to serve time, but you never admit fault. And I think if we had that, she'd probably would have done that. But because she has to admit fault, I don't think she will. She doesn't seem-- I mean, again, she was offered this plea deal. I mean, it's probably been over a month now. And so you think, unless she just wants to take it down to the last minute, just because she wants to waste more time, I guess-- I can't imagine being her attorney and having to try to convince her that this is the best deal you're going to get. I know she's changed attorneys multiple times. She had a public defender at one point. And then-- Yeah. I was out saying too much, because I was advised by my lawyer not to speak on the plea deal, but I know what it is. Is there accountability? Kind of. I'll just say that what she was offered, I don't really think-- OK, I put this way. Like, she would be a felon. I can give that much. But I don't really think her being labeled a felon stops her. Well, first off, she's done a job. So I don't think her being a felon would matter there. I don't think she voting matters to her. Traveling, she already has to ask for permission. Anyways, it travels. So all the things that come with being a felon, I just don't think it'll hold her accountable. I think she needs more than just being labeled a felon. But I do feel like if she took the plea deal, you will hear about her doing this to another man. That was per cent. Believe that she will do it again. I even told prosecutors that I was like, you've got to make this severe enough to stop her. Yeah. I mean, there's at least four that we know. And it's a repeated pattern. And like you said, she got better every time. You seemed to clock it very quickly when we were going through the text messages and all of that in the civil case and the emails. You seemed to clock it very quickly that you need to sort of gray rock this person. And I was wondering how you sort of figured that out so quickly. You mentioned like her eyes went dark and you were like, oh, this is dark energy. When you told her, hey, I only want a professional relationship with you. Did you have someone that kind of is like, here's how you deal with this. But as uninteresting as possible, give her as little as possible to try to make you less of a target. I'll share this. It's going to sound a little wild. But I'm very spiritual. Basically, this is going to sound great. I have a painting that basically-- I felt like I was warned by God that this was coming. Painting that I did that showed a clear image that resonated with me that was like, if you keep engaging with women flippantly and allowing that energy into your life, like these casual hookups and such, if you keep doing this, like something's going to happen. And I was basically like this painting that I created just by throwing paint on a canvas. I've shown a few people in my life, and I'm like, do you see anything in this image? And they see it. And I'm like, right, so it's not just me putting an image in my head and really forcing something on there. You see it clear as day. So yeah, right. So what did you do that painting? Was it after the interaction? Or was it right before? Or-- I was before I met Laura. I was-- Oh, wow. I'll have the timestamps on my phone and all that. I made it my screensaver. I knew right away that it was a sign from God. Wow. And so I made it in like four months before I met Laura. I took the sign as I God was saying, if you keep doing this, like something's going to come, if you keep casually engaging with women. And I thought I was invincible. So I kept doing it. So when it hit me, the time where it hit me, I was like, OK, I knew this was coming. This is my own doing. But because I felt like I was warned, I was like, there's something greater here. I had to go through this and for what? I haven't shared the painting because I don't-- you start talking about spiritual stuff. I don't need to share this to try to prove anything to anybody. But I would say that's where I got my insight from. I just feel like I knew something was coming, something big. And so when it presented, I was like, I feel like this is for a greater purpose. I don't understand why I'm going through it today. But yeah, I should probably start saving this woman's messages because she's clearly not going away. So I don't know where the-- what this is going to unfold into. But this to me feels like the test that I was told was coming is now here. When you're given discernment, who's to judge in what manner that comes through? But I did want to compliment you on that. It was-- especially as a lawyer going through all of the text messages, the emails, and what was happening, seeing how quickly you-- I'm not giving you anything other than what I am legally required to do. You cannot use this to get more attention or time for me. I thought you handled that really well. Well, especially because she was reaching out to your employer. Yes. I believe she reached out to your parents. She reached out to people you were going to be engaging in speaking engagements with. She was really attacking you from all angles. And you still, I think, put up a wall. Or when you spoke to her, you were really short and respectful, even. I remember you saying, I don't want to be in this child's life, but I will financially support. Yeah. I obviously saw that she was willing to go to anybody in my life. I mean, it was very-- it was apparent very quickly that she was looking to destroy my life and that she would stop it nothing. And so I felt that. and I thought anything that I give her she'll use against me, she'll weaponize against me. And she tried. My most vile messages in her eyes that she cropped and took out of context and then posted them online and some people were like, wow, he's so mean. And it's like, you should show the rest of the context. But that's where I was like the best way to combat this is to just put it all out there. That's what I did. And I think that's what Laura was never anticipating was that I was going to be this transparent. So even when she went public, it was like she had no idea that I was going to go, okay, you want to go public? Well, I guess I'm going to put a microscope on this and that was she was not expecting. And I was playing ball with her, but I was being strategic. I knew I was doing. I'm like, oh, you want to go public, but you want to stay anonymous? We're not doing that. If you want to play this game, let's both be out in the open at once. And so I just went on. I was like, hey guys, I'm in this public court case in the city of Phoenix. And I just said that because I was leading them to the water. Someone Googled it. There you go. And they found out what her name was. I think two can play this game. And I had already, at this point, I was like, look, I'm not in danger of violating her private figure. I mean, she has a podcast. She did. She did. She's not on a private. She's not a private. I was like, she's not private. So I'm like, I could technically just say her name right now. If I wanted to, but there's technically a gray area because she's not well known, but she is a public figure. She has a podcast. She wants to be known. But then I didn't realize it when I opened it up to the public, obviously, their capabilities. That was the part where I was like, oh shit, we got some serious. Yeah, you had like a team of P.I.s somehow. Yeah, like, and again, I was blown away by that because I kind of thought like the community, my person, I joked about at the beginning, but I, you know, in my experience, I always felt like there were a lot of TV people that watched were dummies. I didn't really have interactions with like the people that were smart. But like through this case, I started interacting with people that were in the community and I met them in person and I'm like, the hell? You're like super intelligent. Who do you do in watching reality television? And they're like, I just like to watch it because it's just some stupid shit. I get to watch after a whole series day of work. It's just like, I want to turn on some stupid and brainless. And I was like, oh, that makes sense. So we need it. We need it. Lawyers, doctors, any type of professional, I mean, it doesn't matter. Being a mom is hard and having four kids and being able to sit and just turn your brain off and watch people argue over something that is not of global import. And it's like who ate the bow off my cake or whatever it is. Who got the first impression rose. It is the really smart people. We need that relaxation for our brain. I get that. I mean, I'm not, I don't think it's the intelligence of where you guys are, but I feel like I'm intelligent. But it's why I get high. I'm like, I want to shut my brain off. I'm like, I legitimately want to turn into a vegetable. Do that you like? I work hard on the week. Like I bust my ass all through the week. I work so hard. So on the weekend, I'm like, I just want to shut myself into my house, smoke, and then go to some pizza and just lay up and stare at the ceiling for like three hours and just be like, like, you're not doing anything. I'm like, that's the point. I legitimately don't want to get like, advance it at anywhere life right now. I'm not trying to get ahead right now. I'm literally just trying to be in the present moment and let this like silence last as long as I can make it. - Hey, Rune, I are obsessed with buddy. We're at the types of dog parents where we cannot wait to go on vacation. And then once we're there, we miss our dog terribly. So it's nice that Oli understands being completely dog obsessed. Oli's fresh recipes are developed by real chefs and backed by vet nutritionists. They're obsessed with making the best meals with the highest quality ingredients. From the moment you start your subscription, everything is tailored to your pup. The meals are perfectly portioned and you get a pup tanner and scoop for easy storing and serving. With Oli, you don't just get the food. Through the app, you can actually check in on your dog's health with real vets. 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(upbeat music) Going back to what you previously said about, maybe part of first strategy was, I'm going to get this out there first and because this man has represented himself as a Christian and having more traditional values that you would have some sort of shame over what had occurred, she could maybe use that against you. In some of the early text messages when she was talking about, well, I know you're a man of God and you care deeply about that. So I don't want to get this abortion if blah, blah, blah. And you were very much like, this is your choice, this is your decision. It does seem like she was trying to use what she knew about you to sort of control you and thinking that you would accept that shame and that you thought maybe the world would put on you, I guess. - Yeah, no, absolutely. And what she didn't understand or realize that I was going through a very spiritual time of my life where as this has all unfolded, I've stepped away from organized religion. So I used to be afraid to even say that, right? Like my parents now know where I stand. I'm like, I believe in God, but I don't follow any organized religion. That was a major part of my life where I was going down the spiritual path and that into playing in my benefit 'cause she thought that I was, yeah, going to get hung up by like, oh, what are Christians going to think? Like this guy is not acting Christian like at all. And I was like, yeah, but again, like you don't realize that I'm actively distancing myself from that I'm creating my own path. I don't hold shame because I'm not holding myself to this standard and I'm just being mean and trying to figure myself out. So, but through all of it, I was like, all I need to do is just be honest. Where's the shame if I'm honest? Like this is what I am. - Right. - And that's the thing that I've always held onto and what I've been trying to convey to people is like, there really shouldn't be any shame in you being what you are, even if you're not quite where you wanna be at. Like the vices that I have in my life, they're just vices. I'm not ashamed of what I am. So, I think she wasn't expecting that. But, you know, again, I think when she targeted me, she knew I lacked self love and self confidence. Most people that watch the show could see that and I had talked about it openly. So, she didn't realize, I think she thought I was still stuck in that phase when like I was actually like farther along than she realized. Why do you think she did this? Because I listened to a podcast recently, I think you gave it about two years ago. So, it was before you got a decision in the paternity case. And you said that you thought she wanted attention and wanted to be the victim. So, she could use it in her own podcast and her own media. Has that changed now? - No. - No, she's still, oh, again, I think that's why Victor, or whatever her website, like she's still trying to actively portray being a victim. And the thing that's triggering her the most is right now the podcast is out and it's going back and people are now hearing her interaction with Mike who she dated. And it's like that was her original story. It was like he abused her and now obviously everyone knows that she made that up. And so, you're unraveling the origin story of her victimhood. And so, she's losing that. And that's why she's starting to go off the rails. It triggers her a lot when he's brought up. She doesn't really get triggered with me. She really, really gets triggered with him because it's like that's when she was first seen as a victim in the eyes of other people. 'Cause she's always seen herself as a victim. She's stuck in victimhood. But then people started seeing her as such. So she thought she could compound my story and become even more of a victim. She even sat early on. I think it's been released at now. It's it was on an email. She was like, I've already talked to a TEDx organizer about sharing my story with you. I was like, yeah, I know exactly what you're doing. And she was gonna spend another TEDx talk to make her the victim all over again. And it was just like, I know what you're trying to do. So like, no, I'm not gonna let that happen, right? So before you she even said that, I was like, I already was on to what you were trying to do. That's why I've never given you anything to be able to actually be seen as the victim. 'Cause even if I just said one day, but like, if you, I'm a, if I see you in person or whatever and threaten her, boom, now she's all sudden, like, I've threatened her. Now she's a victim. Oh, I was like, don't give her anything. Don't even curse her out. Don't give her anything that could potentially make her be seen as the victim. But that's her inner M.O. since day one is get people to feel bad for me because that's how I, that's how I get worth. She has no internal validation. She has no self-love. So her whole way of being validated is by getting it from the exterior. And that's what she's playing on doing. And then I remember you tried to reason with her mom. Yeah. Yeah, you do. Do you want me to talk about that? She kept bringing up her mom early on. And so I thought, okay, clearly a close relationship. And I hope that if I talk to your mother who I would hope loves you and would correct this behavior, then this should be a really easy phone call to make. Let me just clue your mom into what you're doing. She's probably not aware. And once I clue her in, she's gonna be like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." Yeah, no, I don't want my daughter to date somebody that doesn't want to be with her. And she's telling you that she's gonna, she's only gonna have an abortion if you date her for a week. Like she does. Can we just talk about that for a second? The text message is emails that sort of contracts. One thing is she's very smart in some ways. Oh, she's very smart. She definitely is. I'm gonna give credit to her credits too. She knows what she's, she's very. She has learned how to manipulate the legal system. She has learned how to create this playbook and then refine it and make it more and more effective and more of a weapon. She's very smart in some ways, but then it lacks itself awareness to be like anyone looking at this email or text message saying, "If you just agreed to date me exclusively, then I'll get an abortion." As long as you agree, that's objectively insane. Right, right. Again, I think she never thought that these messages would make their way out. So it was like, I think in her eyes, she's just like, "I don't care if he sees this." Because like, I'm just trying to basically suffocate him and trap him into doing what I want, right? And so again, she had already prior to this. She had done this to other men and it never saw the light of day. So she became more bold. So it's like, yeah, she went after me, a public figure after never being, you know, doing this with a public figure. So through her success with the previous victim, she decided to up the Annie and she just bit off more than she could chew. So, you know, it gets to that point and I go to, yeah, talk to her mom. And I'm like, this should be the end of it. Her mom should basically hear me out and go, "Wow, yeah, I'm so sorry." Like, if my daughter wants to have the child, then she should have the child for the sake of having the child, but if she doesn't want to have it, then don't have it, but don't hinge it all upon whether or not a guy wants to date you. Like, I totally understand what you're saying, Clayton. Like, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for calling me. Like, let me talk with her. You know, because I'm like, I put myself in her shoes. I was like, my parents would, my dad, like, what are you doing, dude? Yeah. My mom and dad, like, what the hell are you doing, right? So they'd hold me accountable. And instead, the response I got was, well, you know, just really, that really disappointing that you won't take any accountability after impregnating my daughter. And I said, well, excuse me. I said, I don't believe your daughter is pregnant, but let's say she is for a second. I said, if she's pregnant, I still, I don't want to be with her. So like, again, I'm telling you that I'm not going to be with your daughter. I don't want to be with her. I would assume you'd want someone that wants to be with her. Because I don't want to be with her, she's saying that she's basing her decision on whether or not she has an abortion around that. I'm just telling you, you should talk to her and say that that's not the right way to go about it about having an abortion. You either have an abortion because you want to or you don't, not because of whether or not the man wants to date, right? That makes no sense. So I said that. So that's all I'm saying is like, I'll support whatever she wants to have this child of hers. I don't believe she has, but if she wants to have the child, I'm not going to stop her. It's her body or her choice. And her mom's like, well, it's really disappointing that like you just don't believe her because she's been nothing but kind to you. And she's, you know, like she could be an incredible, incredible person in your life. And I was just like, all right, okay, I see where this is going. I was like, have a great day. Because again, I was pissed and I was like, I got off the phone. I got a little shot. The only thing that I wish is I wish I would have recorded that call. Yeah, I did record a call of Laura's at a later point. I was like, damn, I should have recorded her mom, but I did not suspect that her mom would be in on it. You didn't anticipate this level of. No, that part I couldn't get ahead of that part. You know, I had some good foresight, but I did not in that case to record her. I was not privy to like, okay, maybe I should call is for this in the event that her mom's on the guy I would have never thought her family was in on it. No, no way. There's no way. I was like, okay, crazy woman. Yeah, I'm kind of shocked that I'm dealing with this because you wouldn't think you'd ever run in this situation. But crazy family like, come on, what are the odds? And that's where I was like, no, I'm going to talk to sell like a mom that, you know, understands. And like, it's going to hear me out and be on my side and no. Like outwardly encouraging it. Yeah, yeah, like her, her, her co-conspirator, which is what, which is what she is. Yeah, that was the last thing I was expecting. And then when I got off the phone call, I was like, okay, I'm in some deep shit. Like, this is bad because she has the backing of her family. Well, I think her mom too, I mean, this is where, and I've shared this recently and I feel strongly about this. I mean, after like going back and forth with my feelings towards Laura, I've ultimately come to a place today where like, I can say, you know, I don't hate Laura. I hate her mother because I believe her mother is the puppet master. I believe her mother is the one that instilled these values and beliefs down upon Laura. And she brainwashed her into becoming this person, this thing that Laura wouldn't have been had. She had a loving mother, you know, that truly cared for her and wanted to see her succeed. So I really strongly believe that. I think unfortunately, Laura doesn't see that because she wants to believe that her mother loves her and cares for her and has her best interest. Because like, that's a really hard thing to accept to realize that your mom does not love you and actually wants to like see your downfall and wants to basically use you to help play out her narrative. But ultimately, who's going to go to prison? Like Laura, not her mom. And so I really do think that if Laura goes all the way to trial and gets prison time, I think we will see Laura snap in prison. And I think we will see her when she's separated from the puppet master when the strings are severed. And she realizes her mom's not in prison with her, but she's like, wait, why is my mom not here with me? She should be my mom's the one that made me to do all this and the one that encouraged me. And now she's outside and I'm inside, right? And so when she's fully severed from that tie, I think it's when you'll see Laura snap. That's why I want to go to prison. I'm like, she goes to prison and I guarantee you, I feel very strongly that she will all sudden have a come to Jesus or come to light moment. You know, where it's like, oh my gosh, what the hell? She never cared about me. And then I think she'd turn on her mom and probably would come out. I'm like, we'd love to see you go against your mom and say like you were brainwashed and get help and turn this thing around. But in her defense, it's like, that's hard when your mom is destroying your life because you want to believe your mom would never do something like that. I'm just curious, what have you observed that leads you to believe that the mom isn't just validating Laura's behavior, but is actually the architect of some of it. Sources close to their family. I've heard a lot and I won't like to have old specifically, but I have heard plenty of the stories come out. I've talked to people that knew the, the Owens family growing up. Very close to that family. We're in the same city, went to the same places, like interacted with them. I learned about the backstory of her mother and in the family. Like their dad is a very successful rate or was a very successful radio host in San Francisco. The most successful. I mean, was getting interviews with Obama. I mean, a list celebrities were coming up to him at restaurants and taking pictures with him. And so they were very successful. Well, Laura's mom was also successful. And I was, I mean, again, this is probably, this is going to play into my point. I don't know exactly what she did. She's a publicist or something, but she was, she was successful on her own right, but she was always in the shadows of her husband. She was known as Ron Owens wife. Not, you know, Jan Black. That really rubbed her the wrong way. What's what I was told, she despised that. To make matters worse, he had an affair. Now he's showing he has no respect for her. And so now though he's beloved and she sees that he's having this affair. And I don't think it came out of the time. Like people knew it was just a rumor. So it's like this man's being praised. I'm in his shadows, but I know what what he really is. He also had, you know, there's alleged gambling issues. And so Jan knew the real Ron, but Ron portrayed this loving character on the radio that everybody fell in love with and thought he was this incredible genuine guy. And, you know, so I think that what happened was Jan started to resent him because, you know, he didn't respect her. He was, you know, cheating on her. And they had this really bad relationship from what again, I was told inside sources. And so like that led to her resenting Ron, but then also resenting what I believe is just as a whole men. Because she felt like I should be seen as my own person. And I think she that that then caused her to pass that down upon Laura, at least in the sense of maybe she doesn't hate all men, but like pass down the whole hey, when men that you like, and you're looking to have a connection with relationship with when they do you wrong. Don't cover for them. Don't defend them. Like what I did tear them down. I can tear them down and make them feel as poorly and like make them hurt in the same way they're making you hurt. So that's why I believe her mom's the puppet master is because everything that I've been told and that I've learned it was her mom despised her dad and really hated him and the fact that she was in his shadows. And the other part of it too that's playing on it is this family thinks they're better than everybody. I've been told that their family looked down upon everybody else as if they're peasants. Laura never had to face accountability because the parents would just use their power and their money and influence to get her out of anything. So you have a also a daughter that yeah, never faced accountability like I was told that Laura was pulling stupid shit like when she was in high school and her parents basically would just use their status to get her out of problems. So that creates a big issue if you've never she's never one's ability. If you never had to face a consequence and before she got to you, she was emboldened by having successfully. And I hate to use the word successful in this context but gone through this playbook of essentially blackmailing and harassing men into doing what she wants and ruining their lives. And just like keep lying like the previous guy she kept lying and she got out of it. She ultimately got out of it in the first case with Mike is being seen as the victim with Greg. She was seen as I mean kind of the victim abortion coercion you know so like he had a couple of texts where he lost it one day and he was like you know super remorseful for it but is a guy got mad and I cursed all I curse at her and I was like did I almost did the same thing. And she weaponized it against him was like he forced me to get a abortion well okay there you go now also she's a victim again so it's like she was two for two on the victim hood and she tried to hit me with this abortion coercion she tried so hard to get her. so hard to get. me on abortion coercion the same time. I saw her trying to lead up to that. So I said, yeah, I have the pills. I have the pills and she wanted me to say just take the, you know, take the other pills. It's like he did. And you were so smart. You were just, you were just, I knew she was being like, I was like, it's up to you. Like your body, your choice. The plan B. Yeah. The plan B text message. We're like, take the plan B period. I support that. Yeah. Exactly. I was like, again, I know what you're trying to give me to do. You want me to be like, listen, you dumb. You know what? Now, just take it. Stop, stop sending me paragraphs. Just take it. I've already told you what I want. Yeah. What more do I need to say, right? And so, yeah, I knew that she was up to something. And I was just like, just like, you can't twist words when they're very minimal. Yeah. Make the plan B. I support that. How can you twist that? You can't. But you can twist a nice long three paragraph message about how, you know, I start rattling off emotional. I was like, don't put emotion in these messages. Make it very direct, very clear. There's no way to misinterpret this. That was very, very smart. Yeah, I guess again, that came, that played into the whole like, I was like, oh, this is for a bigger purpose. Why am I going through this? Right? The whole spiritual thing. So I just had that insider feeling in my stomach that ended up, you know, kind of obviously the manifesting. And I was like, oh, you know, but I didn't know what I was getting into. But like, obviously, I guess I, I pegged her as what she was early on correctly. Your outdoor space should really feel like a reflection of who you are. But for the longest time, mine kind of felt like a total stranger lived there before Wayfarer. My Austin backyard was basically a graveyard for good intentions. I had those sun bleached plastic chairs I inherited from a previous life and a patio that was kind of an eye sore. I was avoiding the space almost entirely. It was functional, but it wasn't a place where I could actually decompress after a high intensity day. Then I found the pieces on Wayfarer that finally leaned into my more eclectic unique taste. 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Our owns is the one that brought this to the courts. She started this fight and she brought the courts into it and then her bringing it into the courts ends up backfiring on her. Because after that whole crazy trial that we want to talk to you about a little bit where even the judge said it looked like her attorney was trying to give her information than as soon as she wasn't able to get the signals of what she should say. Yeah. Yeah, she just shut down in open court in a bench trial. But she started this fight. She's the one that brought it into the courts. And that's what led to the civil trial where the court found there is no competent evidence to state the law owns was ever pregnant, which then leads to you getting attorney's fees and costs, which I think is what, almost $150,000? $200,000? Yeah, it's up to two. That she owes you. And then she's filed for bankruptcy. She's dismissed it voluntarily rather than give up her tax returns. It looks like. Yeah. But you were representing yourself at first in this civil action. What was that like? Were you responded to the petition? On your own? Yeah. Well, with the help of a law firm, she was trying to serve me these papers and I was avoiding service because I was like, well, if they don't serve them to me, then like, obviously, they can't be enforced. I was a dodging them, dodging them. I went to Miami to go see my cousin. She found out I was in Miami and tried to get me served in Miami. She ended up like having this process service show up to two girls, homes. One that I like, I had talked to briefly and another one that I never talked to, but I just said once in a podcast that I thought she was cute. So she like sends this process server and neither of the girls answer. Of course, at the time, we had them like, I don't want to explain it to these women like. So they didn't answer and I was like, good, because I hadn't had in a contact with one ever and then one had been like, but also how did she know that? Did she just see? Possibly combing through my social media and everything online. Yeah. So she was like obsessed with learning everything about me and knowing all my background. And just yeah, she's slugging her energy drinks 24/7 and just through the night doing overnight research on me to figure out who can I reach out to. So basically like, make Clayton have to explain this at all times to all different people. So eventually, you know, I got served. I was in the department complex at the time and I'm in the elevator and the elevator door opens and there's two cops and I'm like, damn it. Like they're right there. And I just like, hey, how you doing? I'm like, good. And I just go to walk off and the one guy recognizes me. He goes, are you Clayton? I'm like, and I have my, the time I had my neighbor in the elevator with me. He stops like watch. And I'm like, I'm not sure. All right. So I called, I don't remember who I called, but I was like, I'm just going to throw the papers away. I can't do that. And I was like, why not? Like, because you've been served now. Now, like if you throw them away, like they know they have record of you being served, they'll submit a default judgment. Yes. If you don't show up, they're going to be ruling her favor. And I was like, what? So I have to respond. They're like, yeah. And I was like, what's the parenting plan? It's saying like, talking about when like, I'm supposed to have the kids versus when she has them. What holidays? I was like, there's no kids. I was like, so how do I respond to this? And they're like, you have to respond to it. I was like, I just go in and say it's fake. And I was like, yeah, I Googled family law attorneys and I found this company popped up and I called them and I said, look, I have this scenario. I explained it to them and I said, can you just help me file these papers? Do a one off thing. I'll pay you for an hour your time because it's not that much paperwork, but just help me file this. And they're like, okay. So I did. So I went off to it. Oh, yeah. They helped me respond to it. And then I filed. Because you're also thinking it's insane, right? What court is going to take this seriously? She's asking me to define a parenting plan. There's no evidence that she's even pregnant. When we talked about this on the podcast, we jokingly referred to them on the unborn. That's one way. Yeah, I've heard there's a bunch of names for what they are, but then I said the unexisting. Yeah, the unexistings would be actually better. Yeah. Yeah. There's been a lot of things. It's been pretty funny. All the different things that the names have come up. But you're thinking the court's going to see this, right? But once something gets into the formal, because we had a lot of questions about that after we talked about it, like, why would the courts even entertain this? But once you get the court process started, you have to go through all the procedure to end the court process. I go into court and he's like, why are you here? What are you objecting to? I said, all of it. He's like, well, apart of it, I'll say there's no kids. And he goes, you mean like they're never been born yet. I said, no, there's no kids at all. And he goes, what do you mean? I said, she's making the whole thing up. She's faking a pregnancy. And he was like, are you messing with me? I was like, no, I swear to you. She's faking this whole thing. And he was like, well, does she have some proof? She's not many proof at all. And he was like, okay, I'm kind of like confused or whatever. So he basically, he just pushed it up for it to be like, heard again in the court system. So that basically started the whole family court thing. And then she kept trying to do mediation. But she kept getting, trying to get me to mediate outside of the court. So I was like, obviously, she just, she's like, oh, good. Now I can force him to interact with me. Now you can get his attention. Yeah. And then she said, let's just sell this outside of the court. Like, let's just meet up. And I was like, fine, I'll meet up with you in a public location where there's a bunch of people in video cameras. And she was like, no, why did we do that? I'm like, we can go sit in the corner of a coffee shop. I'm not going to meet up with you one on one. Because at this point, I'm like, you're going to, you're going to like start punching yourself in the face and run out of my place, cramming rape or who knows what. And so I was like, no, I'm not, I'm not meeting up with you. Or we can talk it out in the court. So no, I don't want to have to talk in the court. I'm just going to cost a lot of money as I look, you opened it up. Let's do the mediation. So we did like one mediation or something and it was a woman. And she's like, so what's the plan of action guys? I was like, the plan of action is that she produces evidence of her being actually pregnant. And then from there, we can talk. But if she doesn't produce that, I'm not talking to her. And she's like, I will, I will produce evidence. And then the, the media is like, okay, well, I guess we have a resolution then. And she's like, I guess we'll just wait for that information. I'll say, yeah, it sounds great. And tell them I'm not going to talk to her. She's like, well, I don't think that's fair. And I was like, no, that's what that's what we're doing right now. If you don't present evidence, I'm not talking to you. And this mediator's just like, what is going on? And so that was really it. And then of course, then I filed for an injunction against harassment, which I should have filed for an order of protection. I got the injunction because I was told that I was like, what's the difference? And they said, well, an injunction, you file against something that you don't know. Like a stranger was an order of protection. You file against somebody that's like someone you know could be a girlfriend or ex-girlfriend or whatever, like family member. I'm like, "Oh, well, just to annoy the shit out of him, I'm gonna file this." and then I found out after the fact that an injunctionally last a year in order protection last two and I was like, damn it. But I wanted to obviously get her to stop talking to me and it did work. I did get the injunction granted. I had to go in and represent myself, which we talked about. She obviously then brought me in a court for the order protection and got hers, but whatever. It cut off communication so it effectively served its purpose. Stepping back a few months before what we're talking about right now, you wanted to meet with her in public. But you had her take up pregnancy test in your home after she claimed to be pregnant. How did you let her back in your house after that? Well, because. I am picturing you like just being like, "Hey, welcome back." You asked for it. You were sitting in your house again. I had a phone call with her. I mean, this was after, I came up with a phone call out before after that night, but basically I was gaslighting her. But I was doing it obviously with the purpose. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to start acting nice to her and say I want to meet up with her and that I want to talk this out." Because I was obviously me cutting her out, it's not working. I was like, "Let me try to manipulate her into thinking that I actually may give this a chance." I was like, "Hey, would you be willing to come by the house?" And she's like, "For what?" She's like, "What? You don't even like me." I was like, "No, I realize that I'm being unkind and unfair. I don't want to take this into court and make this a big thing." Can we just meet up and try to see if we can come to a resolution? She kind of still has 10, then she's like, "Okay, fine, I'll come over." I was like, "Great." I go to the store, I get a pregnancy test. I'm like, "I'm going to catch her in her line. This is going to be the end of it." She shows up and I'm like, "Hey, how you doing?" It's like, "Good." It comes down to, "Thanks for coming. I really appreciate it." Before I could even get to my thing, she's like, "Hey, I know that you probably hate me right now." I was like, "No, I don't hate you. I mean, in my head, I mean, yeah, I do." She kicked this thing. But I was like, "No, I don't hate you." She's like, "No, no, no, no, but I know it's been a lot stressful for both of us." She's like, "But look, I know you don't believe me that I'm pregnant." She's like, "But I brought a pregnancy test here to show you. I just took it before I came here." I don't know if you have one, but if you had one, I would take it to right now. I was like, "What?" I was like, "Well, I do have one." She's like, "Okay, yeah, I'll take it." So I take it out and I'm like, "Here it is." Then she's like, "Okay, I'll take it right now." She goes into the bathroom. I was like, standing there by the door and she's like, "Well, can you give me some privacy?" I was like, "No, I won't see you." She was like, "I can't pee if you're going to watch me." And I was like, "We used to do drug tests in college football when I played for Mizzou." And it was so uncomfortable because they do the same thing. These guys would literally stand there and they'd be like four feet away over my shoulder looking at my penis. And I'm like, "I can't pee." I'm gun shy right now, brother. You're right over my shoulder. I don't like this. I'll never forget one guy. I was like, "The amount of penis that I've seen in my life is like, don't eat anything." I was like, "That doesn't make me feel any better." You're acting like a piece of blend into the hundreds of other people you're seeing. This doesn't make me like, "No, okay, thanks for saying that now. Now I can piss." You just like, "Do your penis is not interesting or exciting to me?" That's what he was going to say. He's like, "I'll forget about your penis an hour from now." I was like, "This is not going to work on me, man." That didn't just give me the green light to pee now. So, I had that thought pop at my head from college and I was like, "She's right." She probably can't pee while I'm watching her. It's really invasive. Even dogs when they pee, they're poop. They're looking around everybody. What is the more horrible right now? I get it, we're all vulnerable. I was like, "Okay, I'll close the door." I was like, "You know anything in your pocket?" She was like, "No, clean and look." She had on these tight spandex. I was like, "Yeah, unless she shoved something up her vagina." I don't know. I'm like, "What am I going to do? Stick my finger up there right now." She probably didn't. So, I closed the door. I was like, "All right." So, I closed the door. I don't like a tight sports training ball. I was like, "Okay. I don't see anything. I shouldn't walk in with a purse." I closed the door and then she shoved she pee. Then she came out and, "Yeah, I mean, 10 minutes later, I'm sitting there looking out of the test. It's got two lines." I was just like, "What the hell? She's actually pregnant." She's rubbing my back and consoling me. She's like, "I see. I just, I just, I don't get it. It doesn't make sense, but I was trying to tell you the truth." We sat and talked for an hour and a half and I was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm sorry for doubting you." In that moment, I was believing her. Then I woke up the next day and I don't know where the thought came from. I woke up the next day and my brain was like, "No, she's lying still." You were there. You knew what happened. The sexual activity that the two of you had cannot lead to pregnancy. That's not how it works. Even the time frame. I did think she potentially trapped me. This is where that's why it's called love trapped. That term is a term that maybe most people aren't familiar with, but it's a term that many athletes are familiar with. That's when I first heard about the term. She's basically when a woman gets pregnant by a man, but the man thought she was on the pill, but she somehow misses a pill and she gets pregnant. The guy is going to go first round the NFL draft and so she knows that he's about to make a bunch of money. She forces herself into his life so that she can get access to that money. I first heard about it in college. I thought she trapped me. I was like, "Oh, she went to the bathroom after the second blowjob, spit it in her hand and shut the bottle." That's why I was like, "I know we didn't have sex. I wasn't worried about that. I was worried about her trapping me because I'm like, I've heard these stories. I've heard stories of girls fishing out condoms that guys, after they have sex, they fill the condom in the trash. The girl goes in, grabs the condom, dumps out the seam and shoves it up them. That's what I thought she did. That's what I was like. But I woke up the next day and I was like, "No, I still think she could be altering." Okay, a pregnancy test technically is just an HCG test. It doesn't mean you're pregnant. It just says there's levels of HCG in your blood, which. I just was like, "I'm sure you could probably get HCG shots or you could get some. You could take medications to cause your HCG to rise. I'm sure something could cause her hormones to fluctuate." I did my little Google because I Google everything and I Googled it and sure enough it was like, "Yep, anti-epileptic, epileptic." "Epileptic?" Yeah. "Causent." She said at the time that she had epilepsy. I was like, "Bingo, there it is." I actually thought she was taking pure HCG shots. I was like, "Oh, she's her epilepsy meds or causing it." I also thought, "Maybe she's doing this on purpose." I brought it to her and I was like, "Hey, I just figured it all out. I know we talked last night, but I think what is happening is your epilepsy medication is causing this." That's why you think you're pregnant, but you're not. I was throwing it at her, but I was also kind of digging at her being like, "Hey, listen, dummy." I thought, "Hey, I think I solved it. We're all good." I gave it to her. You're just getting tricked by your own meds. We're good. I know where he is. She was like, "No, no. I just talked to my doctor and she said this." I was like, "Shut up." Then I was like, "Yeah, no. It's your medications." She said, "It's not my medications." I'm like, "Yeah, no, it is." If it's not, then, "Hey, show me an ultrasound until then. Seize medication." I'd always do that. Of course, she wouldn't see she's going to keep medication. She'd just keep going. Yeah. There's multiple equine drugs. I know she had horses. I don't know if they were breeding horses, but there are multiple drugs that are given to mayors that have the HCG in them, where even just a tiny amount, who knows if that's what she did. We thought that's, too. I mean, and then I started talking about horse girls. I am a horse girl, so I know. I know. I don't know what it is. People like, "All horse girls are different." I'm like, "Yeah, but that doesn't mean they're different, where they all just try to trap you in a pregnancy." No. They can be quirky. That's fine. They can be different in that realm. They're like, "Oh, you messed with a horse girl." I was like, "Okay. First of all, I will not stand for the horse girl's plan." Laura Owens does not represent us. I just feel a little joke. They're like, "Well, she's a horse girl." They're like, "What's both of different?" I was like, "Yeah, but different like, as in, maybe they're just quirky or whatever. They're different than your average." That doesn't mean they're all out here just like, "Trappin' men." Yeah, you seem fine. You seem like a different kind of horse girl from the ones that I've been talking about. She's on the side of the screen. I'm on the side of the screen. You're on the other side of the screen. You got that. You have a separation there. We can all agree. You're not on the same part of the spectrum. Thank you very much. [laughs] [music] Chime is changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee-free banking. And this is fee-free banking built for you. They're not like traditional old banks that charge you overdraft and monthly fees. Honestly, I wish I had this when I was a starving law student. They have thousands of fee-free ATMs, so why pay to get your own money? Again. 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For more information on APY rates, my pay, spot me, and travel perks. Go to chime.com/disclosures. Okay, let's be honest. We are out here doing the absolute most. We've got 12-step, nightly skincare routines, vitamin C serums that cost more than a billable hour, and we're scheduling facials months in advance like their expert witness depositions and shelling out partner track money for creams that promise to fix everything. But sleep is the best thing to stop your own skin from testifying against you. And every night you are putting your face on your bedding, hopefully, for at least six hours. Bone branch bedding from their organic cotton sheets to their breathable pillows and comforters is made with ultra clean materials that are gentle on skin and free from harsh chemicals. Their fabrics are breathable, soft, and temperature regulating so you're not overheating or tossing and turning. tire bed is made with better materials. 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I mean, the judge did such a good job, writing such a detailed final order that really laid everything out and helped set the prosecutors up for their criminal charges. So I wanna give that judge a lot of critics. That was a lot. There was so much evidence. And it's like the fact that she had the funding to have experts and try to challenge all of this stuff and it's just like, you just need to set all this down and be like, I made a mistake and back away and get some mental health treatment. - No, yeah, she had her corrupt little former OBGYN or where the hell he was. That was definitely a family friend or something. That was just spewing out whatever he asked 'cause he was retired. There was no risk of losing his license for fighting a liar. But again, the great thing for me was like, I had a support system. We had an expert. She said she was like the head director of Planned Parenthood. That was just, - Yeah, she was great, I read her that. - That was great, yeah. - And she just offered her time. Like she heard about the story and was like, I'm willing to testify. And I was like, we're like, how, what a blessing. Like that we have this, the director, that can just shoot down everything she's saying right now. Or she's like, I went, you know, I went anonymously. She's like, you can't do that. Like I was like, then the head director, I'm like, this is like, the top of the top of a Planned Parenthood, being like, you can't do that. And so I'm like, this is incredible. And we had everybody in the right position in order to have a slam dunk case. There was a reason why we had the Andra arenas, the one doing the cross, you know, the cross exam. And not Widenick. We won a woman cross-examining her about pregnancy, not a man. But this also speaks a testament to how intelligent she is because I didn't know that, yeah, I wasn't looking over at her lawyer to know that she was hand-sitting hand signals. And I also wasn't making direct eye, I mean, I was looking at Laura. She wasn't looking at me, but I wasn't like face to face with her like she was. And Deandra realized that she's like looking over her shoulder. And that was a bad-ass moment where Deandra was like, I feel like something's happening back here getting signal. So I'm gonna stand right here. And she was just like so good 'cause I'm like that rattled Laura. Like Laura was like, no, she can't get her signals. Like they have a game plan and someone's picking up on her game plan. That moment is like, no, no, no, we're not doing this. You have to have a level of intelligence to pick up on that to see that her eyes are trailing off. And not just trailing off 'cause she's just breaking eye contact, but because she's actually looking over your shoulder at hand signals that you don't see happening, but you catch on to like wait, your eyes keep looking in this exact spot. And I know that like Jinger is your lawyer's behind me. So I think you're giving their signals being given to her and off she was right. She's extremely intelligent. How lucky am I to get this like intense lawyer that again, like could speak on like, so I actually was pregnant 'cause she had been pregnant before. So again, like let the women carry this, right? And that's also again, where I've been blessed as well, the community that I have is probably like, oh, it's all women. I don't have a lot of male support. I do have men in the community, but it's like 97%, or like 93% women, it's probably the same demographics as the people that follow me. It's all women. And so I'm like, this movement's led by women. So I was like, this is great. I'm just being helped out. And this is awesome. Like how else do you dispute a pregnancy? Like let the women dispute it. - I mean, that had to be also, I think, Sessie and I talked about this in one of our previous episodes when we watched some of the video of that cross examination I mean, first of all, let's give you an amazing female litigator. Let's give her full credit. Zandarin is watching her cross examine Laura, all the female litigators I know are very good. It's harder for a woman to be in that position, right? Especially litigation is a very male dominated industry. But watching your attorney systematically go through, and that's what cross examination is for. It puts everything in a crucible, so it burns everything away. Every assertion is challenged, and that's part of our adversarial legal system. And so watching the Andro do that in a very systematic, polished, professional way with Laura, and then watching Laura crumble because she doesn't have the facts or the law or reality on her side. And I mean, at the end of it, she was just reduced to, I think she started crying and asking the judge, can we just stop and the judge is like, that's not how this works. - She did grant her, which I was a little upset about. I had that judge an incredible job, but Laura was successfully cracked. What cracked her was that she admitted to a little bit of medical fraud. She's like, well, it was just a little bit, it was a big deal. And all of us in the courtroom were like, oh, like, oh my gosh. You just admitted a medical fraud. And not only that, but you're just like, you brush it off like a little bit. - And it's just a little awkward. - Yeah, we all audibly groaned. And that's where like when everybody at once did it. Like it was loud. It was loud. I mean, you heard it on the audio. You could hear it on audio too, but it was like loud in the courtroom. And all of a sudden she realized that nobody believed her, 'cause like everybody at once was like, come on. This is so stupid. And so she was like, Oh, if everyone's gonna do this like in the community, she's gonna (mumbles) She's rattle, she's rattle. Now just hammer into her right now. And then the judge was like, let's just, no, I can't do this. And then the judge's like, okay, we're gonna take like a recess. I'm like, no. - Yeah. - No, you cracked her, like you cracked her, let her unwind right now. But in the fairness of the judge being unbiased and really be giving everyone a chance. I'm not gonna go against the judge in that moment. She didn't have to do that, but she did do it. And I was like, I get it. In the state of fairness, you let her. But I was like, you're what you're letting her do is recoup and you're letting her go back out there and pull herself back together and develop a new game plan with her lawyer. Basically, it's like you're in battle. And it's like, hey, we, we, we, we, we've successfully stabbed her, she's bleeding out. Now she's wounded, like now finish the job. And instead it's like take recess, like go let her bandage the wound up and like, you know, be ready to fight again, go head to head. I was like, no, no, no, no, like this is what happens. Like when you can get in through to her, like let her unravel. Because when Laura gets emotional, that's when she just, that's when she lies and that's when she just like blows up her whole game plan and she just gets herself in more trouble. So you want Laura rattled. She has a game plan, but once it wants her emotions take over, she can't control her emotions. And that's when she's sloppy. So I was hoping that we were going to keep her in that sloppy state so that we could just get her to just unravel more. But yeah, the judge was like, you didn't need it. You didn't need it. You didn't need it. You had the facts in the law on your side. But yes, it was more just for the satisfaction of, yeah, of me and the other victims being able to see her in person, be unraveled and feel the pain. Just to feel a little bit of what we felt, what she put us through. When we see her smile and walk confidently in talk, it irritates us and agitated us. We want her to feel the pain that we felt. When we see her cry, when we see her scream and throw a fit, I'll just speak for myself. I don't speak for those guys. It makes me feel really good. It does because I'm like, when I saw the police raid video, I was like, hell, we-- Oh yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I was going to get it on. So entitled in that, I mean-- I turned that on and I watched it while I ate my breakfast and I was smiling the entire time. Because I was like, yeah, how's it feel, Laura? How's it feel to realize you're screwed? How's it feel to watch your life be actually destroyed? Like, you try to destroy my life. I'm not above it. Again, I'm not trying to be the bigger person. I'm like, I'm a big eye for an eye kind of guy. I'm like, I think if you, whatever crime you commit, you should have the same type of punishment. Yeah, I don't think you need to be a bigger person. I don't want to be. I mean, ultimately, I guess I do want to be. But I'm like, no, I'm not going to hide it. I want to see Laura cry and scream and get thrown in prison and then realize her mistakes and then get help. But I'm like, I do want-- I feel like you're going to crack her for about my cracker, put her in prison. And then when she's ready to actually see that she's the problem and dissect her ego, which is what it is. She's got this out of control ego. It's like, once she's ready then, then like, OK, let's see you start to turn and blossom, Laura. And I'll forgive you. To just back up your point, at least what we know of is that she's been doing this since 2014. So that's over a decade that she's been doing this. And like we said, we know of at least four people, including you, there's probably others that this has happened to. And not only is there the mental torture, it's the money of having to defend yourself in court, which is incredibly expensive. It's incredibly stressful. And then also the damage to reputation. And you have suffered mentally. And then this has cost you money. And this has happened for over a decade. And you lost opportunities. Yeah. And I believe you spoke about that you lost opportunity. Right. I have. I have. I lost. I mean, she technically, she successfully took away my passion. She put it on halt, which was I was speaking to children about destigmatizing the conversations around mental health. And she put a halt on that. I mean, I lost all my engagements. And I haven't spoke since anybody that I want to go speak to, they would Google me. And I had these school representatives saying, hey, we can't bring you in. Because even if it's untrue, the parents are going to wonder why we're bringing in a guy with a false accusation. Or with an accusation. Because right now, currently, it's like, you're saying it's false, but we're seeing that you have an accusation. And it's to be determined if it's true or not. That made me extremely angry. I was helping kids see more open about their mental health and you've deprived them and me of being able to create that kind of change because you want to be seen as a victim still. So like, I had, I mean, I had a lot of anger towards Laura. I was like, you're hurting me and my ability to impact the lives of children that need help. How dare you? You're a monster. But for no reason, I mean, you guys spent a total of what, maybe two hours together awake, total, yeah, to go to this level of what she did. And then she refined her plane book, right? Because she realized, oh, I can't get a paternity test. If I say I have twins because it's damaging the way that procedure is done. So you were smart enough to figure out, oh, no, there's this other test, this ravian test. Am I pronouncing that right? ravjen. So yeah, I - Yeah. - Well, her, I knew that what she was doing was like, she's like, "Hey, because we have twins, there are no facilities that will test." And I was like, "Okay, well why?" So I googled it and I found out the answer was because there's a small chance that kids could have separate fathers. They don't want to potentially say you are the father if you may not be. But the technology since the last time that she had done this to Greg, where she also claimed twins, there wasn't technology around that time or there wasn't a facility willing to test on twins. Ravgen, since in my case, between Greg and I had come to the forefront, was like, "Yeah, we'll do it." I was like, "Well, there's got to be a facility." So I was like, "I just Google." And then I find Ravgen. I call him, like, "Yeah, we'll test on twins." 'Cause like, we can test and pull and separate both of their DNA. If your DNA matches up with one, even if it doesn't match up with the other, we can still say you're the father of one. And I was like, "Right, that would be fine." Like, I just need to be able to clear-- - You just need to know, yeah. - Yeah, so then I brought that turn. She was like, "Great, I would love to take it." And she's like, "But I don't actually have to take it." 'Cause I know you're the dad, so like, I'm just gonna basically make you wait until I have the children. And I was like, "No, no." Now you went public, so then I went online. I was like, "Guys, she's not willing to take the test. I'm willing. I'm gonna schedule my portion." And so she has to schedule hers. And she did, and then she canceled it, and then I went online and told everybody, I was like, "She canceled." And then she went on reddit. I was like, "No, I was sick." And then everyone's like, "Okay, why are you canceling?" You're being weird about it now. She did schedule it again. And when she scheduled it, I was like, "What are you doing?" And I said, "What do you mean you can?" And I said, "What do you mean you can?" And I said, "What do you mean you can?" And I just decided to take what I was told, and I took it online, and I posted that video, where it was like my mori moment, like I am not the father. But I called that, that was my putting my chips all on black moment. I was like, "Look, I am going to just put an end to this now. I was given results that are inconclusive, but I'm not going to present them as such. I'm going to present them like it's over, because it is over. I'm not going to wait for her to do three more tests, and then do a talk to her. My understanding, looking it up, that little to no fetal DNA should be conclusive, there's clearly nothing to indicate that she is actually pregnant even. Yeah, I thought they would be, I said, "Well, you write out that she had little to no fetal DNA." They go, "We can't write that out." Because there could be like an issue with the sample, like in transit, it could have like the fetal DNA could have died. And I was like, "Well, I need you to tell me that there's no fetal DNA." Like, you know, all we can do is tell you that whether or not the father, and I'm like, "Yeah, wasn't that the point of the test?" It was a dead term in your paternity. It's a dead term in your paternity. If the children were not, whether or not there was a kid. Yeah, I asked my sister, "So if somebody weren't to be pregnant, did they made the whole thing up?" And they tested with your test. What would the results come back with? He goes, "In conclusive little to no fetal DNA." Right. So that's what it is. I was like, "So that's exactly what it is." Yeah. The system wasn't made for someone speaking pregnancy. Right. The entire case, the entire test, none of this was made for someone who's faking it. Yes. So much of our legal system depends on people being rational. Yes. And telling the truth, our legal system depends on that. That is like a fundamental thing that you're not filing something based on absolute false information. And this was just kind of a perfect storm from her ability to research, her playbook that she's had before, and just the fact that getting something like retina, getting something in the legal process, then you have to go through the legal process to make it stop. At what point did you try and get prosecutors to go after criminal charges? Because you reached out to them throughout the process. Yeah. So what happened was actually like when she went public, that was the first time that I ended up getting in contact with my lawyer, Gregg Woodenick. He basically reached out and told me like, "Hey man, you don't know what you're about to get into." Like I represented the previous guy. You're going to be in over your head this woman. She did a lot to my last client. And I brushed it off. I was like, "Dude, she can't go on for long for this. I'm going to prove here that she's not pregnant here soon." And that'll be the end of it. Okay. I was like, "All right, thanks, dude." So then we got the phone and then keeps building up and it's getting worse and worse. And I went into court and self-represented. So it was back to back. I had my injunction against harassment. And then I had her order protection scheduled the day and the day after. So I get an extension on mine, which I was like, "I don't want an extension, but in hindsight the judge gave me a chance to get representation by then." I think she was like, "Dude, get representation. You don't have any clue what you're doing." But then the next day I lost. I lost. And I think there was collusion. That's my personal opinion. The judge that she was with, he had alluded to them talking, "Expartake communication. He alluded to it." So I was like, "That was weird." But he ended up with no evidence in stating the order protection against me. So I lost and I was like, "Okay, well, that's really annoying because that just dude just put an order to that protection on me with zero evidence." And so I was like, "I need a lawyer." Well, also though the day before, I didn't realize when I walked out that it was being live streamed because I got a message from a podcast and he was like, "Hey, man, you did well in there." And I was like, "What?" He was, you did really well. You represent yourself pretty well. And I was like, "How do you know that?" And he was like, "Did you not realize it was being live streamed?" I was like, "It was being live streamed." He was like, "Yeah, bro." And she was moving her stomach around, bro. She's definitely not pregnant. And I was like, "I saw her moving her belly around." He was like, "Yeah, bro." She was moving around and everyone online, like 10,000 people were watching it. I was like, "What?" And she didn't know either. Neither of us knew that it was live streams. So then online, everyone's like, "Yeah, what's he doing, representing himself?" And so then they raised it go, "Fund me?" And at the time, again, I didn't want to get legal representation because they were 500 bucks an hour. And I was like, "I just bought a house. I drained six figures, all my money into this house to trade an Airbnb." I put a multi-six figure investment into this property. So I was like, "I got no money. I'm cash poor. I'm talking to Woodenick." And he's like, "No, I already know what you're going to ask me in the answers, no." And I was like, "Okay. I just figured I'd ask you for a call to the lawyer." He's like, "I just can't. I can't represent you." And he talked about this in the podcast, but he accused him. And it took a toll on him. He used him as conspiring to rape her. And he had pleased show up to his house and it really took a toll on him. His kids to see officers come to his house because he didn't accuse the rape. It really messed with him. And so he didn't want to go through with it. And then he decided after thinking through, he came back and he said, "Okay, I'll represent you, just for this case. I'm going to have my coworker represent you." So that was the first time that I met Deandra. So we won a week later and that was it. Hopefully that'll be the end of it. Well, it wasn't. The family court system was just open and sitting there. And then I got a notification stating it was just going to close due to inactivity because Laura wasn't filing anything else after I got the restraining orders. I cut off all communication. So like, now, there was nothing happening. And when I got that notification, I was like, "No, I'm not cool with this. I'm not just cool with this dying." Because then it's like this case, it just dies and there's no resolution. And like, everyone's going to wonder whether or not she was actually pregnant. So I was like, "No, no, no. So I called a Wootnick and I said, "Hey, man. I go, is there any way we can prove non-paternity or like that she was faking the pregnancy?" He's like, "Yeah, we actually can. We can file papers for that. I'm like, "Okay, can we then?" And he's like, "Yeah, we'll do that." So he filed the papers and that shocked her. We filed the papers and Laura went ballistic. She was like messaging like, "Why are we open?" It's like, "Why are we wasting resources?" It's like, "Let's just cancel." Oh, so that she's worried about wasting traditional resources? Why don't we get to answer that? That's what I was like, "Oh, you don't want to go to court anymore?" Well, guess what? Now we're in court. You opened is now the court that I'm going to carry us to the finish line with. Right. So it's kind of like Sarah and Deppardis because I just remember being like, "Oh, she's bothered by the fact that now I'm filing papers." Like, "Oh, how have the tables have turned like what an incredible scenario switch?" So now I'm like, "How yeah? You're mad that the court's open." Then she threatens to sue me for $1.4 million and she's like, "Yes." But I won't sue you if you drop the case and I'm like, "No, we're in it. We're in it. I'm taking you the distance." So we did and we won. Yeah, you didn't start this fight. Yeah, I was like, "I will fight." Because I'm a big eye for eye. I will take this all the way to the end. You want to send fire my way? I will fire right back at you. Because I was like, "Lora, you have no idea what I've been through. You have no idea the public scrutiny. All this has led to this moment. The amount of resiliency I have. This, to me, is a walk in the park. You're about to walk through the fire. You don't. And that's what she didn't realize. Like, she didn't understand what it was like to walk through that. Because it was her first time navigating the public environment. I'm like, "Girl, you have no idea what happens when people turn on you. When you're the guilty one, you don't realize the power of the internet. Like, they are ruthless. When they're ready to go pitch forks up, you're done. You're done." And I'm like, "I already know how that is." I was like, "Yeah, I'm not afraid about it because I'm the one telling the truth." And I was like, "So, I'm going to tell you all they buy play." And I did. I went on a podcast and I was like, "They're like, how did it happen?" I walk you through exactly what happened. We're on the couch. She had one leg on the couch, one leg off. She was hunched over. Give me a head. They're like, "Whoa, I'm like, I'll get you shit." I was like, "I'm going to tell you exactly what happened because she's telling everybody that I don't have. " "Difficial set you free." "Just tell everybody that I don't remember." "Just tell everybody that I don't remember." "Yeah." "Which again, that was her thing." She's like, "Well, he doesn't remember. He was too high." And the people were like, "So, you raped him." And she's like, "No, no, no, I also had an edible." And she was like, "I don't. " and you're about to get yourself in some deep shit. 'Cause like, if I wanted to, I could have been like, yeah, she did rape me, but I was like, she didn't rape me. I was, I obviously, that doesn't fit the narrative. Like, I invited her over and I was in full control. But she was trying to hit me with the whole, like, wait, doesn't remember anything. So I was like, so then the people were like, so you raped them and she's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, and I was like, see you lower? Like, this is tough when you're on the internet. Like, these people, they will comb through everything. And that's where she was. I was like, all right guys, but I was like, this is incredible, 'cause I could just go back to work and I could do whatever I was just doing. And meanwhile, these people around the clock, it's like, well, one of them's going to work, the other ones off work, 'cause they're all over the world. But they're like, hey, I'm like, it's 7 p.m. over here. I'm looking into the lower, I just found this information. And then like, somebody else is like, all right, now it's my turn to chill. We had people on shifts. It was like, we really had shift work. On this, we're like, okay, I'm-- Well, they did an incredible job. They did an incredible job. Yeah, they did. I thought, I heard in a podcast that you reached out to the DAs while this civil case was going on, and you were trying to get criminal charges filed against her. Oh. Or the indictment came out. I thought you were communicating with them or-- Well, we wanted it to get to refer to the county attorney for prosecution. And so we had put that out there. And once we said that, the community said, okay, well, let's write letters to Rachel Mitchell, the county attorney. So we get her to take this. Like, there's a big higher chance of them taking it on if we all send thousands of physical letters. And so they did. So that was incredible. By the community, incredible play. They're like, let's just inundate her with 1,000 physical messages. Like, they can't ignore it. And she couldn't ignore it. And she literally said, like, Rachel Mitchell without like, yeah, I'm just going to probably voice her real thought. She's the guy I have gotten your messages. I've gotten your letters. Yeah, stop. And she's like, stop. They're like, no, keep sending them. She didn't say she was going to take the case on. So they kept sending them. And I was like, hey, sweet. Again, make it so annoying until she realizes how many messages she gets. And she goes, oh, wow, people are watching this. Maybe I should do something. Because if I don't, people can be pissed. And she also has got to get reelected. So it's like, hey, you don't take this on. Like, people aren't going to probably reelect you, right? You can make a statement here. Be like, a lot of people are bothered by this. That was incredible. Wasn't my idea to write physical letters. Well, that's snail mail. Are we doing snail mail? We're like, we're in the digital age. But people are like, hey, nothing's more powerful than a handwritten letter. That's actually true. Handwritten letters have a very strong effect on people whether it's a thank you note, or just having something physical in your hand that someone actually took the time to write and send makes a big deal. Not even the time to write it. But it's time it takes to go get the stamp. You can call it there and then go walk to the mailbox and send it out. Or find the pen or all that. I'm like, an email is as simple as this. It's texting, right? But when you go out of your way to go, no, I'm going to write this letter. I'm going to go get a stamp. I'm going to put it on this end envelope. I'm going to walk out to my mailbox and put it in the mailbox. That amount of effort that tells the person, hey, this person went out of their way. Because they could have just sent a text. They could have sent an email. They chose to go extra mile. That shows you how much this is bothering them actually. Well, and they may have been working on it too. We talked about the district attorney can't really talk about it until they decide to actually file charges. But law enforcement in Arizona, they did such a good job with this investigation, the flying out to Texas, interviewing the woman whose actual ultrasound it was and how it affected her. And there was so much boots on the ground investigation. Because obviously the worst thing that could happen would be for them to charge it too early and then for it to get dismissed or say, oh, we can't prove this or give her some way to weasel out. Because that would just embolden her more. And the civil case ended first. And having the civil case with that judgment saying, there is no evidence that absolves you, right? For her actually being stopped from doing this criminal activity again, having all the evidence they need to prove these charges before they filed it. I have a feeling they were probably spending quite a bit of time making sure that they had everything lined up. We talked about how this is hard to figure out what charges to bring. One of those things you do in law school is issue spotting. And so you get a set of facts. And then it's like, what elements does this fit? Fortunately, Arizona has a statue called fraudulent schemes and artifices. (laughs) I had never heard of that in any of the states where I'm licensed. But okay, so she was indicted in May 2025 originally for seven felony counts, including fraudulent schemes and artifices, forgery, perjury, and tampering with physical evidence. Almost a year ago. Yeah. And then the second victim indictment when November 2025, so that was a superseding indictment. And that was Greg Gillespie for what happened to him a very similar, almost identical pattern of behavior to harass and defraud him in 2021. So she is now facing 14 felony counts with the initial seven for what she did to you and then an additional seven against Greg Gillespie. We were talking about in the beginning of this how she was offered a plea. You said the deadline for her to respond has been extended. We're recording this on April 26th. The deadline for her to respond has been extended to April 30th. Is that right? Oh, we've, it's the 30th as well. I was told, yeah. So, coming up here. She obviously targeted you because of your audience. In my opinion, thought that your reputation meant a lot more. Obviously, it means a lot to you, but she went after you because she thought she could get to you by threatening your reputation. And little did she realize that your status as a public figure and your audience on the bachelor would be the reason that caused her downfall. I don't think she forced saw that happening that so many people would come together to support you and actually be, will cause her to crumble, really. Well, I think what she misunderstood was what was my reputation. It depends on you asked, right? But like, there's some people that hated me as the bachelor. Whether you hated me or whether you liked me, both sides could agree that I was too honest. And so my reputation was maybe being a little bit too honest, a little bit too transparent. I see that as a blessing. I see that as a strength. And so when she went after me to try to knock down my reputation, I'm like, you're actually just bolstering my reputation because in order for me to combat you, all I have to do is just continue to be overly transparent and honest. So you're just now giving me another scenario where I can strengthen my reputation through this entire debacle. And that's how I saw it. I'm like, I am seeing a silver lining already presenting because all I have to do is speak my truth because you can't damage the reputation that I'm building, especially when all I have to do is continue down that same path. Like all I have to do is just keep being maybe too honest for my own good, where people like, I don't need to know the play by play on the blow drops. Right. But like if I tell you, you'll realize that like, I'm not hiding anything. Right. All she's done is strengthen my reputation in my eyes. I was like, yeah, maybe not like from the jump, but all the way to where we are now today, I'm like, Laura, you've just made it to where now people, I don't think anyone should come after me for a third accusation because they're like, if somebody tries to falsely accuse me again, I guarantee you I'll get the benefit of the doubt because they're gonna be like, hey, this guy has always been honest. Let's wait and see what he has to say. And I wouldn't lie. If I did something wrong, I'd be like, guys, this one's real. All I did through this whole last three years was be more open and honest than I've ever been. And that's how I won. She miscalculated what my reputation was. She thought my reputation was that I was an asshole, terrible human being, monster that treats woman poorly. And it's like, I'm not. You thought I was, but I'm not that. If I was that, that's what you would have been able to convey. I would have basically attacked you, lashed out at you, you know, sent these regressive messages, beat you, abused you, whatever you thought that I was capable of. But I did everything that you never thought I would do because you incorrectly judged me from the jump. You were on the side of people that thought I was a monster. You cannot like me as the bachelor, that's fine. But when people were saying that I was a monster, people were saying that I didn't serve to have love. People were saying that I was just telling women what they wanted to hear so I could have sex with them. They were all wrong. I genuinely gave it a fair go. And I was like, hey, I'm in this environment where people are giving me permission to experience this polyamorous environment that I'm in because that's what I was based on. To go in from polyamory to monogamy and I was like, give me the green light. I'm just doing what everyone's telling me I'm able to do and I'm just giving it a fair go. So now you want to blame me for it. I'm like, I didn't do anything wrong. My intent was always pure. Did I create chaos? Yes, but that's what the show is set up for that. If the lead is open to it, chaos is inevitable. And that's ultimately what I found out. So she, along with other people miscalculated it. And that being said, I'm like, I'm not saying you all were wrong in the sense of like, I'm not telling you I'm a saint. I'm just telling you that I'm not the monster you ever thought I was. I never was. I never will be. And so I was like, you miscalculated me. You misjudged me and that was your biggest downfall, Laura. And all you did was strengthen my reputation, which is what I pushed all along. I'm not a saint. I'm definitely a center. I'm just a guy being honest, trying to figure it out as I go along in life and I make mistakes and I learn from them and don't we all. And that's pretty relatable. And I think that's why this whole support group has come together is because everyone's like, I can relate to this. The guy's not trying to be a hero. He's just trying to be human. And I've never tried to be anything other than that. So I think you'd be great on traders. I love you on that show because I want to be a trader because I'm like, then I could be given permission to psychologically manipulate, but it's a show. It would be fun because it's all for a show. I won't psychologically manipulate people for my benefit and like tear them down in real life. Right, in real life. It's in your narcissist or just a abusive person. But in a show's sake where it's like you're given permission to do it, it's like, I wonder if I could get away with being like, a Laura. I wonder if I could get away with being a liar. I know what these people do. I know their tactics. Could I be good enough to like pull it off? That the stakes aren't, I'm not destroying anybody. You have great inspiration. Yeah, you just channeled my inner Laura. I was like, let me get on my inner Laura. Yeah, I'll let people space and stab them in the back. So yeah, I would love to go on the traders. I'm like, let me give me a chance to be a trader so I can see if I could actually pull it off after everything I've went through. Yeah. So it's our understanding that the criminal trial assuming she doesn't accept the plea is going to occur on July 29th, 2026. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. All right. Well, we will keep monitoring this. Thank you for your time. We're so glad you do so much. Yeah. Thank you guys. This is fun. I enjoyed it. So this is fun. So I hope you guys have a great rest of your day. And I'm sure we'll cross paths again. All right. Have a good one. Bye. (upbeat music) Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The Bravo Docket. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram, @TheBravoDocket, and subscribe to our podcast, anywhere you listen. You can also join our Patreon for extra content. Until next time, legal team, bye. (upbeat music)