Classical Music Is in Crisis. Gustavo Dudamel Is Here to Save It.

Hey, it's Michael. If you are not yet a New York Times subscriber, we have some news for you. You can get full access to the Times without a paywall for 30 days. All you have to do is download the New York Times app to get your first month completely free. And if you're already a Times subscriber, well then thank you. Okay, here's today's show. From the New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro. This is The Daily on Sunday. Classical music in the United States has long been in trouble. And the orchestras that perform it have been battling for their survival. The possibility of reinventing classical music has seemed out of reach. Until. There he is, here comes Gustavo Dudamel. Gustavo Dudamel. Maestro Gustavo Dudamel. Came onto the scene. And took classical music by storm. The word on the street is that this guy's kind of a rocker in the world of conductors. The it-man of the conducting world. The shaggy-haired prodigy from Venezuela who has become classical music's newest rock star. Now, Dudamel is bringing his revolution to New York as the new musical director of the city's premier orchestra, a post he officially begins this week. Today, my colleague, classical music writer Joshua Barone, on the dawn of the Dudamel era and exactly what's riding on his success. It's Sunday, September 6th. Joshua Barone, welcome to the Sunday Daily. Thank you. So, on the way to work this morning, I passed a poster on the subway with the face of the man that will be the subject of this episode, Dudamel. And a few days ago, I opened my mailbox and I got a big brochure with Dudamel's unmistakable head of hair on it. This man is kind of everywhere right now in New York. But for listeners who do not live in our fair city, let me begin with a very basic question. Who is Dudamel? Even for people who don't live in New York, they might be familiar with him because we're talking about a man who might be the most famous conductor alive today. Gustavo Dudamel is one of those musicians who transcends classical music as a genre, as an industry, and really is a star in the realm of pop culture because this is someone who works a lot outside of the concert hall. He's been in a Trolls movie. Wherever the conductor led, we followed. He has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. He does. He does, he does, yes. We now declare today Gustavo Dudamel Day in Hollywood. And even this old series on Amazon, Mozart in the Jungle, the conductor character was inspired by him. Galagraser Bernal had this wig. Hear the hair. The slogan for this orchestra was hear the hair, which was very much inspired by Gustavo Dudamel. Why am I surrounded by these dramatic people all the time? Maestro, Maestro, I am very sorry, but we must rehearse. This is someone who has been, whether people realize it or not, seeded in the pop culture world. And that was all before his biggest assignment yet, which is to be the next music and artistic director of the New York Philharmonic. And this season, for the first time in its history, the orchestra will be led by a Latino music director. This is the oldest orchestra in the country. Right. It has a bit of a dusty reputation. In recent years. In New York, that matters. This isn't just the start of a new tenure. It's the start of a new chapter for the Philharmonic. And so, Gustavo Dudamel is bringing not only his reputation, but his whole ethos, which is a mixture of joy, celebrity, and honestly, a celebration of music and its potential to this orchestra to revitalize it. And in the process, perhaps if he's successful, this will be challenging, but if he's successful, prove that classical music has a role. Classical music really has a place in pop culture today. Which would be a pretty big leap for many of us to fathom. Talk about the precise state of classical music now, because there's been open hand-wringing for years about shrinking audiences for the live performance of classical music in the very few times that I have been to hear the New York Philharmonic. I have observed the agedness of the crowd. How bad is the situation? Yeah, I think you're not wrong to note a certain agedness, because I think the last time classical music really held the status of pop culture in America was when a lot of those people were children. And so it's been, you know, a half century at least since this thing really mattered in the culture. But there was a time when it really did. And starting in the 19th century, a lot of European music that had been imported to the United States was played in homes. It wasn't unusual for people to play Beethoven symphonies at the piano at night. And then as you entered the 20th century, you had the dawn of recording. And this was a big time, perhaps the first celebrity conductor, which was Arturo Toscanini. You are about to hear a concert in Carnegie Hall, New York, conducted by Arturo Toscanini. Who founded a symphony orchestra for NBC. So he was on the radio. Releasing countless recordings. And this was when people were starting to listen to classical music at home in a really widespread way for the first time. And then in the next generation, another sort of face of classical music emerges. And that's Leonard Bernstein. Of course. And what Toscanini did for recordings, Leonard Bernstein did for TV. There are so many examples of this melodic technique. I almost don't know where to start. I don't know where to begin. But let's take, for one example, our good old stand by Beethoven's Fifth. Here. One. On your mark. Two. Get set. Three. Go. He brought classical music to primetime television, also in a time when there were very few channels. So there were few options of what to watch. So imagine, you know, you have three choices of what to watch. One is to do with your Thursday night, and one of them is to watch Leonard Bernstein conduct the New York Philharmonic, regardless of where you are in America. Right. Must-see TV was Leonard Bernstein. Exactly. Conducting. Exactly. The New York Philharmonic. Yes. repeats the phrase with a slight change, a rising intensity. So this is the heyday. Mm-hmm. And then there's the low day. And there is a reputation that develops where classical music is a little bit different. I don't think classical music is seen as elitist. I, of course, would never claim that that's true. I don't believe it personally. And I think musicians don't believe that either. But there is this popular conception that classical music is elitist. But regardless, over time, classical music, which started, let's say those people who you see in the audience who look older today, those people grew up with the idea that you would subscribe to an orchestra. So you would commit to say every Thursday or Friday night for a show, a whole season of seeing this orchestra. And that system of ticket buyers just doesn't exist anymore. So people buy a ticket to maybe one thing. And they might go once a year, once every three years. And some people are intimidated. I mean, there are these rules. You can't talk. You can't be on your phone. You can't clap between movements of a symphony. Right, unless it's extraordinary. Exactly. But then again, somebody else is supposed to decide that for you and the audience who knows it better than you and then maybe you can finally clap. Yeah. Yeah. The result of all this is that it has become a niche art form. And so what all of that means for the New York Philharmonic, especially in the past half century, is that you had an audience that was not necessarily replenishing itself. The concert hall at Lincoln Center was pretty drab. It didn't have good acoustics. And the conductors who were coming through after Leonard Bernstein just didn't have the charisma that he had. And so you had this sort of old European guy at the podium, a lot of empty seats in this beige room that just did not encourage you to love classical music. And actually in recent years, all of that has been done away with. During the pandemic, the hall was gutted and renovated. It's much more colorful now. The acoustics are fantastic. They're really crisp. And the last thing they needed to revitalize the orchestra was a new conductor. And that conductor, of course, is Dudamel. Tell us the story. Of how he became the man upon whose shoulders the New York Philharmonic and to a larger degree classical music has placed all these hopes and possibilities. How did he come to represent all of that? So Gustavo Dudamel is born in Venezuela in 1981. And both of his parents are musicians. He doesn't get born into a big city. He's not born in Caracas. But he is born into this system of music education. That transformed music in Venezuela and really provided a model for the world that's considered the most successful music education system of the modern era. And that's called El Sistema, which on the surface looks a little bit like a pyramid scheme. Basically, it's that anyone can arrive at this sort of, let's say, community center, pick up an instrument and learn it. And whoever learns it can then become a teacher and open up their own community center. The idea is that it would then spread. And now we're talking about well over half a million musicians who are part of El Sistema. And that is Gustavo Dudamel. My favorite game at home was to arrange my toys like an orchestra and conduct them. That for me was the most fun part of the day. When he was still quite young, you know, 11, 12 years old or so, he is showing up for one of these sessions with his fellow musicians. People from around town. And the conductor is late. I was there. The conductor didn't arrive. And so as a bit of a joke, he gets up on the podium and he starts waving around and conducting his students. I start as a game with the orchestra to conduct them. And the thing is, his teacher did arrive in the middle of all that and just stayed back and watched him. Very cinematic. Exactly, exactly. And suddenly, everything became serious. But serious in the most. Funny way. Because for me, still, it's like a game. Presumably, he's totally unqualified to be conducting. Yes. I mean, usually people come into conducting at a much later age. But Gustavo, like every child, his idea of conducting is you wave your arms. And if he's lucky, he has a sense of how to conduct a beat, which is actually a very specific sort of choreography in conducting. But two people realize things in this moment. Gustavo. Gustavo. Gustavo. Gustavo. Gustavo Dudamel realizes he really likes what's happening. He likes this exchange of energy between him and his fellow musicians. And his teacher realizes that this kid has got a gift that's showing itself immediately. So eventually, Gustavo gets the attention of the founder of El Sistema, Jose Antonio Abreu, who takes him under his wing, teaches him conducting. At this point, Gustavo had been a violinist. And by the time he's 18, he is given the Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra, which has since changed its name. But this was the sort of face of El Sistema. The best of the best were put in this orchestra. And Dudamel, at 18, was given the baton. Gustavo Dudamel, coming onto the stage here at the Royal Albert Hall this evening, conducting the Simón Bolívar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela to this capacity audience here. And this is Shostakovich's 10th symphony. I mean, that is Mozartian. Exactly. To be conducting a symphony at 18. And we're talking about a period of, you know, five, six years between him picking up a baton and taking over a national orchestra. Very impressive. And then from there, the successes came very quickly. In 2004, there's this new conducting competition called the Gustav Mahler International Conducting Competition. And it's for young conductors. And young in the conducting world means under 35. But at this point, he's in his early 20s, and he enters the competition conducting Mahler's Fifth Symphony, which is something that people well into their 70s struggle with conducting persuasively. Why is it so hard to conduct? Yeah, I mean, just look at the fourth movement, which is this very famous movement called the Adagietto. It's been used in a lot of music. It's been used in a lot of films. It's very romantic. It's lush. And it has just sort of a single, flowing, lyrical expression. That's actually very hard to pull off in music, because if you think about that, I can say I love you for 10 minutes, which this piece of music does. Right. But to maintain a sense of, say, tension, of sincerity, of, honestly, discipline throughout those 10 minutes of really slow-moving, expressive music is not easy. This is sort of the heart of what differentiates a competent music performance from a great one. And despite all of that, at 23, he is able to persuade all these judges, the musicians on stage and the people in the audience, that he is better at conducting this music than anyone else there. And he wins it. He wins the first competition. But, crucially, at this competition, one of the judges is a very famous conductor named Esa-Pekka Salonen, who, at that point, was the music director of the L.A. Philharmonic and was looking to move on. So he gets on the phone while he's still there at this competition, and he calls the president of that orchestra and says, you've got to hear this guy. Wow. And then Dudamel gets booked. He conducts at the Hollywood Bowl, which is. which is a massive amphitheater that the L.A. Phil performs at every summer. And, before you know it, he has a job in the U.S., and he is the new music director of the L.A. Philharmonic. Wow. For the second time, in what must be either a stroke of luck or just a genuine measure of his talent, two very important figures are in a room with him and say, you're the one. You're the one, exactly. And once he arrives in L.A., he really does, he takes the town by storm. We have the pleasure of watching a new chapter unfold, the evolution of Gustavo Dudamel, from young phenomenon to mature music director and interpreter, ever deeper and wider in the repertoire. It is a good time to be a music lover in Los Angeles and in the world. He transforms the orchestra's reputation and its footprint in the city, and he really, truly becomes the superstar conductor he is today. All right, well, we're going to take a very quick break, and we're going to talk about when we come back, we're going to talk about how Dudamel did all of that in Los Angeles. We'll be right back. So, Josh, when Dudamel arrives in L.A., how is it that he, he becomes this rock star there in the City of Angels? So, he arrives incredibly ambitious, and the great thing is, he arrives at an orchestra that's willing to match his ambition with a lot of money. The L.A. Philharmonic is one of the wealthiest orchestras in the country. The musicians are happy and well-paid. The orchestra makes money from both its fancy Frank Gehry concert hall as well as the Hollywood Bowl where they book pop acts. Right. And because of this, Dudamel, who is at heart a pop artist, is able to spread his message far and wide throughout the city. So, a big part of that is that he wants to replicate Elsie Stemma in Los Angeles by providing music education for young, often underprivileged kids. And so, he founds the Youth Orchestra of Los Angeles, better known as YOLA, and he has that based in Inglewood, far from downtown where the Frank Gehry concert hall is. If you sing that in the shower, you know, you don't do Okay? But it also has outreach throughout the city and he's able to develop that, cultivate a sort of music culture and he's able to be in neighborhoods in a way that other conductors might not be able to because he's also a Spanish speaker and an immigrant. And he really gets the people to listen to him. He gets the people on his side early on. So, right away, he seeks to, and it sounds like succeeds, in establishing himself as the people's conductor in L.A. Exactly. At the same time, he is in L.A., which is the land of Hollywood. And that is a reality that anyone who is going to be a luminary of Los Angeles, but more importantly, a fundraiser in Los Angeles, they need to ingratiate themselves in the Hollywood community. And this is something Dudamel does quite naturally. In fact, over the years when he's in Los Angeles, he books a lot of celebrities for concerts, which is something you don't see on the network. Yeah, how does that work? For example, last season, he did a performance of Beethoven's music for Egmont, which was this play from Beethoven's lifetime that isn't really performed, but Beethoven wrote incidental music for it. And he wanted a sort of narration throughout the entire thing. So he had Cate Blanchett do it. Brilliant. You must wake up! He recently had a program with Anthony Hopkins around music. And Dudamel makes himself available for Hollywood soundtracks. And so he gets the orchestra in the studio. He's performing music by the likes of John Williams. The famous cinematic composer of works for Star Wars and Schindler's List, his work is indelible. When it comes to soundtracks, symphonic. movie music. It's John Williams or no one else. He is the guy. And Dudamel becomes a friend of his. Basically, he is turning the Los Angeles Philharmonic into an orchestra that's not too good or too self-important to be above Hollywood. Right. Which makes a lot of sense because Hollywood produces movies that are watched globally by tens of millions of people. Right. And it's not unusual to see celebrities in the audience at Disney Hall. Okay. So Dudamel is achieving populism. He is flirting with celebrity. What else? He's really making a case for classical music as a vital art form. He is sort of flattening music as a culture, saying there isn't high art and low art. He's saying all of these things are the same thing. We are here to hear an orchestra play music. That can be with a pop star. That can be with a violinist. It doesn't really matter. It's all the same and it's all there for your enjoyment. So he's really sort of offering this to the people. And at the same time, he clearly wants to and becomes a champion of new music, new symphonic music. So he works with John Adams, for example, who is. He is the greatest symphonic composer alive in America. He discovers, if you will, or puts on the map, a composer like Gabriela Ortiz, who's good for L.A. because she's from Mexico City and she has a really exciting sound. And he is able to use his music to make music. He's able to use his celebrity platform to elevate her. And when the L.A. Philharmonic turned 100 in 2018-19, they commissioned 15 new pieces. Wow. And he was there conducting a lot of them. That's extraordinary. So he's very much ensuring the future of this genre by commissioning all this work. Okay. But what about what many people would probably see as the main reason for him getting this job? The main event, the entree of the meal, which is him standing there conducting the classics, the canon. People buy a ticket for Beethoven, regardless of everything we're saying. Yeah. So this is where Dudamel distinguished himself early on when he was still in Venezuela, when he was conducting in Europe. And what he shows to people in Los Angeles, and as he continues to rise, he's just extremely. Lively. There's a kind of choreography to conducting that's really mysterious, and that's the reason why not everyone is able to do it. I mean, people think that a conductor is there to tell people this is beat one, beat two, beat three, et cetera. But that's really, anyone can do that quite easily. What Dudamel does really well is I think he embodies scores. He embodies music in a way that he's able to channel very specific moments across an orchestra to say the percussion in the back or the French horn or something. And he is able to anticipate moments in the music that he wants the orchestra to play. And he's able to redirect them. It's a sort of oceanic force that he's constantly in control of. Hmm. That is how you get a good sound out of an orchestra. But there's another element to this, which is how do you get an audience to follow along? Right. Because when you go to an orchestra concert, you are buying a ticket to sit in a chair and watch people sit in chairs and absorb a sound. And I'm not saying that he's a ham. He's not, you know, up there flailing on the podium. But he, in the same way that he subtly communicates with every musician on stage, he does the same thing with the audience. And so if you're watching him from the front, you might be able to read his face. You might be able to see a bit of excitement in anticipation. If you're seeing him from behind, you might see a little bit of a looseness in his body as he communicates that moment to the orchestra. And if you're seeing a moment of absolute excitement, he is matching that in his body, which makes him actually very exciting to watch. That is a very alive. Don't you want to move your body when you hear that? I'm literally swinging my tush around in the seat. Yes. You know, it's interesting. The role of a conductor has always been, to me, and I suspect to many, a little bit mysterious, right? The old joke is that it's basically air guitar. And let's be honest, Dudamel, as a very young conductor, does go up and kind of fake it. In front of his classmates, peers, and it kind of works. And I'm being a little bit teasing. But from what you're saying, no, there is a real art and kind of magic to what he's up to. I guess my question for you, because you wear many hats at the Times, one of them as critic, is what he's doing, technically speaking, good? Or is it just extremely lively? I think it's extremely lively. And technically uneven, if I. So we've been describing a lot of things like art, magic, energy. But music is also a craft. And it is a lot of rehearsal time. It's a lot of practice. It's a lot of discipline, really. And this is where I think Gustavo Dudamel struggles the most, because especially in the classics, pieces that people have in their heads and know very well, you can hear the ways in which he keeps you interested, he keeps you excited, but maybe misses some of the details, some of the nuances of the score. I sometimes think of him, you know, Mickey Mouse and the Sorcerer's Apprentice, like sort of at the cliff, sculpting big waves. And less someone who. Who's interested in the fine details of what every instrument in your orchestra is playing. But I guess the counter argument to that would be that it's a very small and specific group of people in an audience who are listening for that level of technical fidelity. You can just say me. No, I think that's a really smart observation, actually. And I think it's why, although I have reservations about Dudamel's conducting, I see him ultimately as a force for good in music. And I think it's important to note that he's getting better as a conductor. He actually has recorded a few of the Beethoven symphonies twice, once in the mid-2000s and once in 2017. And you can really hear, even if you're not a musician or a trained ear, you can hear the difference between the two. All right, well, I will bite. Let's play the older Dudamel and the newer. Yes. This is the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. People will recognize it the moment they hear it. Okay, and we'll start with the older version. Okay, now let's play Dudamel years later. Okay, I can hear a difference, but yours are the trained ears. So tell me what I'm hearing. Let's start with the old one again. This you can almost hear as a young person's idea of what the symphony should sound like. It's big, it's dramatic, but it's also rushing a little bit. It's pummeling this theme. Okay, so now let's hear the newer one one more time. You can already hear just from those notes how much slower and more patient this version is. Right. This is Beethoven being allowed to breathe. Let's go on to the next bit, first with the earlier version. You can hear it's still pretty dramatic, but also a little undisciplined, especially in the violins. They almost slur their way through these phrases. I can hear that. Now let's play the newer version of that. Let's play the newer version of that same moment. Pause. I'm going to jump in because I have a thought. Okay. I know I should be letting you describe this, but I'm even noticing that the violins, they're more consistent. They feel a bit crisper. I don't quite have the right words for this, but there is something different. Is that right? This is the same orchestra across years. Of course, but this is the same orchestra that he's working with. And as you're describing, the violins are so much more articulate here. And as I was saying earlier, there's a lot more patience. In fact, over the course of the entire movement, it's about a minute longer than that earlier recording. You're not just racing to the next kind of volcano, peak of a mountain moment. And I think, conversely, more tension in that. I think this is ultimately a recording that has more conviction, more confidence, even though he was, of course, very confident in his mid-20s. You can hear someone who has maybe a touch of wisdom. I don't want to read his mind, but you can hear someone who trusts the music a little bit more this time. That's fascinating. And I think that growth, combined with everything that we've been talking about, is part of why he's been such a huge success in L.A. Okay, well, we are going to take one more break. And afterward, try to understand why someone who was such an astonishing success in L.A. would risk trying to replicate that success in L.A. or that success in New York. We'll be right back. So, Josh, we just heard about all the ways Dudamel succeeded in L.A. and reinvigorated classical music there. And now we're going to turn to the whole reason why we're talking about Dudamel in the first place, which is that in the coming days, he is going to be taking over as the conductor of the New York Philharmonic, where Leonard Bernstein once stood. And I'm wondering, how did the New York Philharmonic get Dudamel to come here? What was their pitch to him? So, do you remember when I mentioned that conducting competition and the president on the phone who immediately booked him in L.A.? Fast forward, let's say, 15 years, and she is now the president of the New York Philharmonic. Of course she is. And she is overseeing this glamorous, glamorous renovation of the hall that's going to fix its acoustics, fix its sort of unfriendly appearance. And the last thing, the sort of capstone of her presidency, will be a conductor. And so she described her courting of Dudamel as a heat-seeking missile. She did not see any other possibility other than Dudamel. But the challenge is that this guy had a pretty good gig in Los Angeles. He's hanging with Anthony Hopkins. Exactly, exactly. Who wouldn't want to hang out with Hannibal Lecter? And so she spends multiple years trying to talk him into taking this job and making promises. And it's all done in secret because Dudamel for optics doesn't want to be seen as, you know, shopping around. And he wasn't shopping around. But she was following him to different locations around the world. And she would find ways to sort of not be seen entering his hotel so they could meet him. There was a time when she gave him a tour of the new hall while it was under construction. And they almost got away with it, but they bumped into Lin-Manuel Miranda outside who wants to know what they were doing there. And so there's this multi-year courting process. And eventually, she talks him into it, making promises of not necessarily replicating YOLA. The Youth Orchestra, right? In New York, but doing something similar, saying he can have whatever community programs he wants. He can have something similar to the Hollywood Bowl of a summer season somewhere in the tri-state area. He has this new hall, which is very similar to entering L.A. and having Disney Hall. And so there are parallels. And there's the fact that he had been in L.A. for like 15 years at that point. And. It might be ready for. It might be ready for something new. Yes. Okay. So he is successfully courted. I assume some meaningful amount of money is also assured to him. Millions. As compensation. What is the response once he says yes from the musicians in the New York Philharmonic? So I was actually on the stage of David Geffen Hall when the musicians learned that he was going to be. I was. I happened to be there in the room when the orchestra learned. They were just wrapping up a rehearsal. And actually, they were wrapping up a rehearsal with Esa-Pekka Saladin, who's the conductor who discovered him. It all connects. It's all cosmic. And at the very end, this president, her name is Deborah Borda, gets on stage and tells the musicians that she has news. And a few of them sort of slouch. They're nervous. They're worried it's something bad. Right. I'm cutting four of you. And then she just says very calmly, our next music director is going to be Gustavo Dudamel. And they immediately cheer. Wow. It's the reaction that you would expect of fans, not colleagues. It's as if you have poached Jalen Brunson from the Knicks to your team. It's as if you have persuaded Steven Spielberg to direct your next movie. You're saying everyone in that room suddenly feels like their future is quite bright. And I would say freshly energized. Hmm. Well, given the Philharmonic's less than perfect reputation in this moment, I have to imagine everyone understands, including the players in it, that Dudamel has his work cut out for him. So, what does he start to do right away to signal how he's going to try to revive the Philharmonic? So, I think in this moment, I need to tell you how classical music works scheduling-wise, which is quite funny. So, Dudamel is hired in 2023, and he doesn't start until September 2026, which is a long lead time. Everything in classical music tomorrow means five years from now. And so, Gustavo Dudamel has a lot of time to prepare for this job. But he also has a lot of impatience. So, what happens is, before he even has the job officially, he starts programming these wild concerts that the Philharmonic would not have done and have not done ever. So, for example, he took the Philharmonic to Radio City Music Hall for the first time ever last season. Another place he goes to is the United Palace Theater in Washington Heights. And this is not a concert hall by any means, but what he does is he takes music from the New York Philharmonic and pairs them with the Spanish Harlem Orchestra. And does music that is really exciting and sophisticated, but never on the stage of the New York Philharmonic. And so, before he even arrives, he is signaling to New York, this is not going to be business as usual. Mm-hmm. Once again, there will be a kind of populism to this. And now that he's actually arriving, he's laid out his opening concerts. And he is somehow accomplishing seven different programs, so seven different types of concerts in three weeks in September. And part of what makes him so distinct is because the venues will be distinct. So he is returning to Radio City on September 10th for his first concert. But again, you're not really going to hear Beethoven there. He's going to have Lizzo on stage with him. It's going to be hosted by Liev Schreiber. And the next afternoon, he's going to be at the World Trade Center on September 11th at the Perlman Arts Center to present a 25th anniversary 9-11 concert, which is, of course, a very different mood. But even then, he's incorporating musicians from the military band. Right. And putting himself and the Philharmonic very much at the heart and the soul of New York City at this 25th anniversary of this drama. And then a few days later, he'll take them back to a place they know well, which is Lincoln Center. So he is, he is opening this program with a piece by John Adams, the California composer who was a champion there. He has a world premiere, which is very due to Mel. And then in the second half, he'll conduct a symphony from the classical canon that people will be familiar with. And so. Outside the box is the message. Exactly. Literally outside the box of Lincoln Center for the first concert. And even within the box of Lincoln Center, something unexpected. Right. And I just described the first week. Right. This is. He is quite literally just getting started. And it's interesting because a lot of conductors have come through the New York Philharmonic with a lot of ambition, with things that they want to conduct, or if they want to be champions of contemporary music, and they just haven't had success. And already, they have this leader whom they respect a lot, whom they like a lot, and whom they're willing to do a lot of new things for. And let's see where that goes. This already sounds like it's off to a pretty promising start. Yeah. But I wonder when you think we and you will know that this experiment of Dudamel and the New York Philharmonic is working. And if this man can really not just do what he did in L.A. and New York, but deliver on this larger promise that really wherever he goes, classical music is remade. I think there will be two things to look out for. One, will be if you go to a New York Philharmonic concert and you start to see less gray hair. Because in L.A., the age range is pretty wide at all of his concerts. And his concerts in New York have already sold out. Really? As a norm. If you see the same kind of audience diversity in New York, that will be a huge success because that will, I wouldn't say, solve this generational crisis of classical music fandom. But it would bridge it. But it would bridge it, exactly. And another will be if you just start to see the Philharmonic more purely, or period. Because I think, I remember a time when you really wouldn't see New York Philharmonic ads outside of Lincoln Center. There might be banners on the street, things like that. Right now, I can't ride the subway without seeing Gustavo Dudamel. And I realize that's a marketing push and that's their job to promote him as he arrives. But I will also say that in Los Angeles, that never ended. And the question is, away from Hollywood, then can he take this local success and make it big again? Can he make the New York Philharmonic an orchestra that you might see on primetime? He already took one step for that. The New York Philharmonic musicians were on the field at the World Cup this summer. They were sharing the stage with Muppets, but they were there. Right. And a lot of cameras were there and a lot of eyeballs were there. So the project of making this transcendent is already underway. And I think, frankly, classical music people might scoff at someone playing with Muppets or being in a Trolls movie, but this isn't so different from what Leonard Bernstein was doing in this heyday of classical music pop culture. He was presenting classical music to the whole country, but he was also talking about it. He was saying, you know, when you hear this thing, it means this. And he was cultivating a kind of literacy, but also normalcy of music. And that's why even though he might not be the most perfect conductor, and there are plenty of talented conductors out there to fill that gap, I think Gustavo Dudamel is ultimately, and I keep saying this, but it's true, I think he really is a force for good in music, and there is no downside to that. I do have one last question. Is there a piece conducted by Dudamel that we should end this episode on? At the risk of making yet another connection, to Leonard Bernstein, I think it would be a delight to listen to Dudamel conduct West Side Story. Well, Josh, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. See you at Lincoln Center. See you there. Today's episode was produced by Tina Antolini. It was. It was edited by Wendy Doerr. Fact-checked by Alex Barron. Engineered by Sophia Landman. And contains music by Dan Powell. That's it for the Sunday Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Tuesday after the holiday. you