Clair Staines - Chief People Officer at Powwr

Speaker 1 C-Suite ready conversations with the tech and product leaders who have made it to the top. This week we're joined by Claire Staines, Chief People officer at Power. Speaker 2 Hi, morning, Claire. How are you? Speaker 3 I'm good, Matt, how are you? Speaker 2 Fantastic. Thank you. Thanks for agreeing to come on and share some wisdom. Speaker 3 Well, I hope I can share some wisdom with you, but no. Thank you for the invite. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Speaker 2 And what, before we get into it, could you just give us a bit of a background on yourself and who you are? Speaker 3 Of course. So my name is Claire Staines. I'm the Chief People Officer for Power, which is a SAS business that provides tech to the energy sector I work with. So my background is working with SMEs to help them scale and grow. And so part of what we're going to be talking about today is, you know, the leadership team and what that looks like. And I'm really excited about talking about that. Speaker 2 Great. Me too. And so thinking about the, the best C-Suite hire you've ever made, what was it about that person that made them stand out? And did you know that immediately or did it take the the full recruitment process to reveal it? Speaker 3 Good question. So I've recruited of quite a few C-Suite and unfortunately rejected a few C suites as well. And I think when you're looking at that level or someone's applying for that level, it goes beyond their CVS. What you're what you're looking for is somebody who takes the whole business and doesn't necessarily focus on one particular function. So what you're looking at is how they balance commercial people and strategic considerations that if someone was going to stand out, it's about how they frame their experience and the outcomes, the trade-offs that they've made and the decisions that they've had to make. And when I've been looking for somebody, my piece has been around the people. So how they manage people, how they manage people through difficult times, how they motivate those individuals, what do they look from for for in leaders themselves and how are they going to invest in the people that are there already to help them develop their careers? Speaker 2 And how does that that? They can be quite hard things to unearthing someone from an interview process, right? So. So how do you do though? Speaker 3 So when we've just recruited a few C-Suite people, it takes, it takes more than one person to give a yes on AC suite member. So when you're looking at someone at that level, you're looking at the individuals that you want them to meet with. Are they going to be peers or are they going to be members of the board at that level? For us, it was members of the board that they that they would be interviewing as well. And when you are looking at the recruitment process, you want to look at the individuals that are going to interview that individual and then look at what you want them to assess. So when someone comes to me, what I assess them for is a level of curiosity. I think that's really important in someone who is at that level, alongside whether or not they can operate in a high performing organisation. So for me, what that looks like is the ability to learn. And there are two key pieces that I look for and assess in their interview. For example, our board, they would look probably around the honesty or the transparency. And I'm, I'm this is my opinion, but they want somebody who would come to that board and be honest and upfront and go, we've got this problem, but these are the solutions and be able to do that. And I think that's important again, as AC suite level. But yeah, we would look at in different individuals assessing different parts of somebody's journey to get to that level and then see whether or not it translates to our business. Speaker 2 And presumably great as your process, maybe it doesn't get right every time. Can you think of, without mentioning any names of course, any eyes at this level that went wrong and wants to join them? What did go wrong and should the process of court do you think? Speaker 3 There is always an element where it can go wrong and when you're looking at someone at this level, it is very, very costly, not just financially, but the impact that that can have on a business. So I am, you know, in my role, I will always look at the people first. So a poor hire and especially at AC Suite can really do an, a road that trust and confidence that your people have in that overall C-Suite. So that individual is reflective of the whole, in our case, the SMT, so they speak on behalf of the SMT. So if that individual doesn't perform as we would expect or doesn't behave as they would expect, almost tarnishes the rest of that. So how you then deal with that is really important. And what I can also see or what has happened in the past when you've had bad C-Suite is the way that people would ultimately then leave if that's your leader and that's who you've got out there representing you. I don't believe in that individual's values. I don't believe in how they speak. I don't believe in how they operate. And what you can then have is a retention issue. If people still stay and you hang around and you do have a poor C-Suite hire, you could have a downturn in productivity. So hiring those individuals are really key because they are front and centre in your business and represent the rest of your C-Suite. Even in that isolated role, whether it be CT0C 0OCPO, people will latch onto that. Speaker 2 And is there anything in hindsight or anything that you know were the red flags in the process when these have gone wrong and you you should have supported it or is it just you can never be certain? Speaker 3 Yes and no. That's a very difficult question, Matt. I think hindsight's a wonderful thing. So you would interview someone and you would ask them a question and you would say that's a potential development area that someone would have. So that development area, they have done X in their job. You know, we, they're coming over here, we can develop that individual. I don't want to say it's like buying a house, but you buy, you go into a house, you walk around a house, you get someone to come in and survey that house. But the bottom line is, is that when you've bought that house and you move into that house, you know, all of a sudden, you know, you're creaking on floorboards or something doesn't quite happen. You know, there's going to be something that you've got to work on, but it's then the impact on whether or not that individual is prepared to work with you on that. I don't want to compare houses and people, but it's this, you know, for me, everyone one comes with a net. You know, everyone has development areas as far as I'm concerned. And I would hope that they would want to work on that. But we wouldn't recruit anybody if we didn't all align and say, yes, we believe this is the right person. But you see snippets of that individual and you could do references and you could do everything. But then when they are in that job at that level on a day-to-day basis, that's when you see how they behave under pressure. Someone at AC Suite level, they've got decades of experience in some, in some cases they can pull out some really good examples. But it's when they're in your business that you then start to say, so from a recruitment perspective, wouldn't hire anyone who we don't all agree with should be hired. When we look at someone, we look at the notes, we would go, this is an area of development. Yeah, we can work with this individual on that. And thankfully I'm saying thank God where I am right now, we haven't made any errors from AC suite level, but in previous companies it you know, it has gone slightly wrong. Speaker 2 I think the house analogy is a great one. Speaker 3 Thank you. Speaker 2 I understand you not wanting to offend humans by comparing them to houses, but I think it's a great analogy. And what is there a common reason why two people mess up interviews at all levels? Right, C-Suite included? Is there something that you see frequently where people who are really qualified and could do the role let themselves down? Speaker 3 You're good with your questions today, Mark. What I would probably say is those individuals who are taking that step up from maybe a head of into AC suite role. So you come to a point, don't you, where you're in that head of role and you want to go for maybe that first C-Suite role. And in those interviews, I think those people probably try and focus on what they've done and they've impacted and how they've done it rather than the bigger picture. So we're looking for what we would want from AC Suite is how they influence others to get the job done, how they pass on their knowledge to other people. And these people in the head of roles have probably done that, but they may not necessarily pull on that in that interview because they may be thinking, well, it's me, I want to show what I've done. But sometimes in that, what I would be looking for from C-Suite is how you've influenced others, how you've taken them with you, The impact that that's had both on growth of an individual, but growth of a business. And they're what I'm wanting for them to show me or demonstrate to you mate. So more less of the eye and more of the we is probably what I would look for. Speaker 2 Yeah. And that's really interesting because actually at lower levels in organisations, interview advices about the eye not we, right. That's really common interview advice. They want to know specifically what you've done. So I guess understandably people might get that in, might not get that inversion. Well, is there such thing as a typical process at this level? You know, let's say for a CTO role, is there such thing as a typical process, who's involved, how many stages, all those things or does it vary? Speaker 3 I would probably say it varies depending on the person that you're looking to recruit. So we are very fortunate we have and I will hand on heart, so we have the best CTO I've ever worked with in my type. You know he is, you know, he's got ticks all the boxes for us and we've recruited some other roles. I think what's important when you look at AC suite level and you probably do your interviews upfront with other members of the C-Suite or the board, but you still involved their leaders. So they're people leaders. So we've recently recruited ACOO. That process was they initially met me first and it was around whether or not they were the right fit for our business. Could they move at speed? Could they operate in that high performing organisation? You know when you are, you know when you've got C-Suite, all these people are working very closely together and one of the things I want healthy challenge. So I don't want people who will sit back going yes, this is what yes, I agree with that person because we get on with them. I want a healthy challenge within those conversations that we have. And from that point, they then went to the board, the board met with them and we had other members of the board meet with them. They met with the CEO during that process and as well. But then what was important is whether or not their people leaders said the people that they would ultimately manage, they were involved in the recruitment process because I want these individuals to be able to grow under the guidance of that that person. And I think it's important that they understood as well. And you know, it's the difference between a head of an AC suite. So we've got heads of and we're recruiting AC suite that they can see the difference in how this individual will help them on their journey and their growth. And so it's not just yes, it's right for the business, it's right for the people as well. Speaker 2 Right. And and then do you look for, are you looking for consensus or is it a majority vote or some people more influential than others? How does? Speaker 3 That I would probably say some people are obviously more influential than others. So if the CEO says no, it doesn't matter what I say, you know, ultimately and he, he goes, I think we have got, I've been here now for three years. I've worked, I worked closely with the board and I, I have a very good relationship with our CEO. So our culture has been quite clearly defined and we know the type of person and it can be from any walk. We are inclusive, we are diverse. So it's not one particular person we look for. It's the type of experience, the value system, they're driven, their ability to learn, they they are curious. And once we tickle those boxes, I know that they'll start to go through that process. We've we've recruited quite heavily in Q1 and we've rejected, you know, at the same point as much as we recruited, we have rejected people and it's come to me and I have rejected. I think at AC suite level it would be a consensus. So it would be the board, it would be myself, it would be the CEO. And yeah, if if our two people leaders were sat there going, we couldn't work with that individual, I'd want to understand why and drill down because if it got to that stage, what have I missed? What has the board missed for that person to get to that point and these two individuals to go? We, we just, we couldn't work with this guy. Thankfully that hasn't happened. And but yeah, I think if somebody said no, my point would be I'd want to understand why and why we've missed it and how heavily and no that is, and then go from there. Speaker 2 Two or three things that you want to have answered is that is that those culture and value fit that you're just talking about. Speaker 3 Yeah. So ultimately, whether or not they could work within our culture, we are high performing. And when we talk about high performance, we're not on about, you know, hitting KPIs and working long hours or you know, or any of that. It's about we work in a tech space. We are innovative and we want creative individuals who are high performers in their in their seat. So we have a lot of high level individual contributors. And what's important is that they have a voice, they're comfortable with their voice, they're comfortable with challenge, you know, and that they push on and they come with solutions and ideas and that's really important for us. The second point is we are a remote first business and not that does that model doesn't fit everybody and you know it fits me as you can see, I'm at home right now, but it doesn't fit everybody. Now we do have an office in Manchester. So it doesn't mean that somebody couldn't be recruited and then work in Manchester because we've got an office and have that hybrid or work there five days a week. We can do that. But we do look and we're very fortunate that we can work throughout the UK and, and so having that ability to be able to still perform in a remote environment is quite key. And then that they they feel pride and proud and they are driven to succeed. And success doesn't necessarily mean doing it right first time. That failure in itself is just a step to then move forward and keep moving forward. And that's really important to help us achieve our overall objectives that we are very clear about as a business and that we share on a monthly basis how we're doing, where we're up to. And we shout out about some amazing, you know, we call it shine out, shout out where people can, you know, sponsor A colleague and say what they were they, you know, they've done really well and things like that. So it's the culture and and you know, the remote 1st and then their ability really to yeah, when they get knocked down, that famous song, get back up again. Well, say famous song. It's my my era. And they're the things that we would probably look for. Speaker 2 And so is it almost you if you're hiring a CTO, for example, is it, are we saying is it almost taken as read or they know what they're doing with the technology, we just need to see about the other bits? Is that fair? Speaker 3 I would, I would say it was fair. If someone is at that level and has been operating at that level, it's more about when you look into that it's yeah, it's, it's a different thing that you're asking. It's different, yeah. You're drilling down in different areas. You're looking for somebody to come back to what we talked about at the beginning, who can take people with them, who can execute on what needs to execute, who can work with product, who can work with commercial, who can ensure that what's in the road map is going to be delivered. And it's not. I delivered on it. I did this. I took my X amount of scrum teams and we delivered this. We came across stumbling blocks, but we navigated it and this is what we did. And it's that delivery. And even though things may not go right and things don't always go right, how they've navigated that. These are the important things for us. Speaker 2 Is there a big or any telltale signs that someone thinks they're for the step up but they're not quite ready? Speaker 3 From AC Suite level, I personally would be looking around that people leaders, how they've developed others, how they've scaled within their area, how they have seen the bigger picture. So for us, we're a growing business. Have they made sure that their area can operate, for want of a better word, if they won the lottery tomorrow, have they made the area so seamless that they're almost doing themselves out of a job and that those leaders be below that individual can operate and can move forward and can solve problems as they arise? And yeah, I think if somebody can't demonstrate that or hasn't got that, that for me would be something that I would say have a think about. Speaker 2 Yeah. How do they get that message across? But what's what comes out that makes you believe that's the case? Speaker 3 What we're looking for on ACV is probably evidence of outcomes, the growth delivered, the risk they've managed, any transformation projects or anything they've been involved in and that how they've then influenced. So it's probably language that they use on their CV and then when they're in an interview giving some really clear examples of how they a particular project that they've done or a particular product that they've helped and supported and influenced to release and nothing. You know, well, if something goes from A to B without a few bumps in the road, then you know, great plenty. But that's not always the case. And I think how somebody overcomes that for me is a great way to show that influence and that when things don't often go quite right, there's not, you know, it's not chaos, it's calm and it's right. Let's put these things into play, bringing those people together and still leading on. I think they're the important piece is that in an interview it would be really helpful if you can demonstrate. Speaker 2 And is that so you mentioned there things often don't go to plan. Is that something that you ask if thing if? What do you do when things don't go to plan? What do you do when you're off plan? Speaker 3 Yeah, what you know gotcha. It talked to me. I normally say, talk to me about your proudest moment in your career and talk to me about, you know, one of the times where you learn from something that didn't go quite right. What would you do differently and how would you approach that? And for me, sometimes you wouldn't, you wouldn't do it differently because you go in with the knowledge that you had and you planned as best you can. But it's about when we were in there. This is what I did and this is how it worked. And this is this is how. Brought our people with us and this was the end result. And now what I've learned is if it happened again, this is what I would do differently and this is how I would plan with the team. Yeah, not everybody knows everything, and that's why being curious is really key for me in our C-Suite. Speaker 2 I spoke to CTO yesterday who in 15 years, I think CTO, yeah, really, really experience really good credentials, work some great places. And he was saying how much he hates that question because he said the truth is nothing ever goes to plan. But you sort of can't really sit there and go, well, nothing will ever go to plan. So you just say he hates it because he he feels like he can't quite answer it as genuinely as he would like to. So yeah, he was. It was interesting. Speaker 3 But be genuine to this individual, be genuine because I would be interested in the level of honesty, which is we plan, we plan as best we can and we look to execute. But part of that is there's always something that doesn't sometimes go quite right. And it's how you handle that that's the important piece. Speaker 2 How much of the decision making is actually outside of the process? So things like referrals, who made the referral or even things you know, you hear stories about the chat people have on the way to the interview room and all those things. How much of the outside the process stuff makes a difference? Speaker 3 Do you know what? That's never been a question I've ever been asked, Matt. And so how much of it makes a difference? I think if someone was coming who was coming into our building and they were rude to other members of staff, yeah, that does that does make a difference. I do think that we have LinkedIn, You know, people will look at other people's LinkedIn profiles and I think what you share on that will have an impact on how first impressions do counts. And if they don't know what the stats are off the top of my head, but I think it can take you if you walk into an interview and there's a perception or a a poor idea over somebody, you're literally spending the whole interview to try and change that perception. Whereas if you are already on a good footing it then you're then building on that. When it comes to referrals, absolutely. I think you know someone who has recommended somebody to us as a business if they work for us as a business. You know good people, no good people. What you've got to be mindful of though is that then are you recruiting in the same image? And to have a high performing organisation you need a diverse and inclusive group of people round a table who may have a common goal but can see things quite differently. And I think that's important. So yes, referrals are important and who you work with to recruit, you know, AC suite level, you know, if we go to a recruiter, how they are perceived in the industry is really important because they're representing us and our brand. And I want to make sure that they represent us in the right light. They know who we are. So I think absolutely before anybody walks into a room, yeah, it does does. Whether or not someone knows that or not is a different thing. But I do think it's like, you know, you will already have a perception of an individual. Speaker 2 So if you're looking at someone's LinkedIn profile, what are you? Are you looking for red flags or are there green flags? And what are you looking for I guess on the LinkedIn? Speaker 3 I think it's what people say about them. So at the bottom, you know, where you can get endorsements and things like that. So for me, it's not red flags. I'm not out there searching to disqualify someone or to go, Oh well, we've got a difference of opinions or anything like that. They're definitely not going to get an interview. It's more to try and understand and then create some really thoughtful questions before I met with that individual. So I will always come at it from a people perspective. So if people have written, you know, some really nice endorsements that makes me think somebody's taking the time, someone's put their name to this. And that's really important for me. Also, how they whether or not they choose to post or not. I mean, if they choose not to, that's entirely up to them, you know, But if people do, what topics are quite important to them? And I'd like to understand why it's important, you know, if they are interested. You speak about a CT video quite a bit, but if they're interested in AI, for example, which I don't know who in tech isn't really like has an opinion about AI. I'd really like to understand their perception on AI and why it's important to them. Not to make a judgement on their thoughts about it, but to really understand the individual more because I think that's, you know, that's, that's important that we get to understand who this person is before we we recruit them. Speaker 2 Yeah, great. I think that's really useful context because I think a lot of people feel they need to raise their profile, but aside from there's been a bit uncomfortable about it. Also don't worry about well, but if I say the wrong thing is that going to discount which actually is really good context that that's not the case. It's more just you want to know what they're interested in and and explore why they're interested in that. And so you said referrals go an awful long way, which which leads to networking been a great strategy for candidates. Any advice on that? Who should the network? How should the network? Speaker 3 I think one of the things where I most people I feel find it very uncomfortable like you just mentioned posting on LinkedIn, find it uncomfortable going to networking events. For me, just find one that interests you personally and professionally and go to it and then go to another one and go to another one. Because you don't necessarily need to go to 1 where everyone is like you or everyone has, you know, go to something that genuinely actually interests you because when you're there, it's never wasted time. And I, you know, I feel like even if you learn one thing, that's amazing. But I think when it comes to networking, yeah, go to something that sparked your interest and will help you move forward And you know what? Even if it's not something that is in your, you know, it is what you do on a day-to-day basis, but it's something that interests you, just go to it and just, yeah, just start speaking to people. Because I'm telling you now, there'll be other people who feel exactly the same who are in that room. Speaker 2 Yeah, I read something recently by Tim Ferriss, the author and podcast said he was talking way back before he was a huge name about networking. And I can't remember what event it was one of the huge American events, but he said everyone goes these things with the aim of light getting something out of it or finding an opportunity. And he said his approach was just I just want to meet some people who I've got a common interest with and then we'll see what the opportunities are after that. But as a starting point, let's meet some people who I like and get on with because otherwise it's irrelevant what opportunities they've got. I thought that was really great advice. It lips on its head a little bit. What what could someone do to get on your radar or a role exist? So yeah, those are stats about how CCG walls don't make it to the market that I had before, before they're advertised. So what could someone do to get on your radar and what I guess inversely, what what type of approach would just put you off? Speaker 3 Question. So we will, I say this with firm firmness now we will advertise all our roles on our website. But I am I, I would, I would like to say I'm quite active on LinkedIn. So if somebody wanted to message or drop me a message, that would be absolutely fine. When it does come to recruitment that we do follow a process. So it's fair and we give everybody the same opportunity. So if there was a role, even if it was a referral, we would ask that they follow that process. They don't jump the queue just because they know somebody in the business that's that is unfair. So we would be doing a lot of our recruitment via our our own methods when it does come to someone at AC suite level and we would probably get a level of support from some trusted, you know, from our trusted recruitment partners. So I would probably say, you know, get some good partnerships with some good recruitment businesses who have great reputations in the marketplace, who can keep an ear to the ground for you. And that would that would help things that put me off. I'm trying to think now. I think persistence that goes beyond persistence and that's with anybody. I think the, you know, listening and hearing and understanding if do you know what you know, thank you so much for your interest. You know, please keep an eye out on the website, but drop me a note back in a couple of months. And then if I get another note and then another note and then another note and then another note. We've had when we've advertised for roles, I've had some, you know, I've had people send me videos, which I thought was quite creative and I've had people send me messages on LinkedIn. And you know, that does spark my interest. So I do like innovative ways that people have approached us. Doesn't mean they got the job, but it probably meant that I was like, oh, what's your name? Let me just have a look a lot, you know, have a look at your CV and I will always try and respond to anybody who messages me personally. But yeah, I'd probably say there is when it comes to being on our radar. Yeah, speak to a recruiter at that level you would probably know or a head of or AC suite. You will know who to who the people are in the marketplace that you should be speaking to. We would still put it out on our website. So by all means follow our website, follow me or LinkedIn. I would probably advertise it on there as well. Drop me, you know, if you're interested. And then other than that, yeah, maybe don't over over communicate. I would say job titles don't always show somebody's actual expertise or experience. And that for me is where in a covering letter or in your e-mail that you send over, that is where you need to probably stand out. So I would never discount somebody based on a particular job title. It would have to be similar. So obviously if somebody came and was and and of months as a developer, being a CTO, maybe just that little bit too much in a stretch, but someone who had been, you know, head of engineering, engineering director, you know, they're the type of, you know, job titles I would look for. For me, it's all about what they've done, a, with their people and B for the business. And they're the two things. So show me what you've delivered and how you've taken your people with you. Speaker 2 And how often do so cover letters less on Vogue than they used to be? Yeah. How often do you get a cover letter? Speaker 3 Well, a cover e-mail. I would cover e-mail. A cover e-mail rather than cover letter. I'd like a cover e-mail or a cover letter because I feel like it's a summarised bit and if you can get it right, because before you know it, when you go into ACV, depending on how someone writes ACV, you're scrolling through things, aren't you? In order to pick it out for me. If you've taken the time to look at what you think we want as a business and you're summarising it and going, hey, This is why I'm your CTO because of XY and Z. And here's how I can show you examples how I'm going to spend more time looking at their C, you know, their CV. So, yeah, maybe it may, maybe I'm a bit 80s, these fax machines, that type of thing. But yeah. Speaker 2 No, I think, I think it used to be explicitly asked for. And because it's not explicitly asked for any more, people don't necessarily do it. Or actually, you know, my advice would be that's even more reasons to be right, because it's a way to be different. And if someone doesn't read it, then you've not lost anything. Don't know. I was, I was just they're curious and what I guess in a similar vein to that in interview, is there anything that candidates don't do that they really could do that would would make them stand down? Speaker 3 I would come back to that individual that you spoke to before or I think sometimes people think that they should be a certain way in an interview. Whatever organisation I've worked for, I've wanted people to be comfortable and be able to bring their true authentic self to work. And that's what I would want to say in an interview. I get it's an interview, I get it's a formal setting, but I want to, I want to understand your experience and I'm really interested to hear about your career today. Genuinely interested and not all the glamour and all the gloss and all their success. Sometimes it's in those dark times where things haven't gone quite right and the plans haven't gone, you know, gone to plan. That for me really shows a leader, a real true C-Suite individual. And that's important that I see that in an interview. So please, if you are going for any C-Suite level, be yourself. Speaker 2 What? What are great questions that the candidates ask you at this level? What? What type of questions does a great C-Suite candidate ask? Speaker 3 Well, that's a really good one. I would probably say some of the where they ask my opinion in your opinion, Claire, rather than a generic. So asking someone's personal opinion is quite I think is quite OK the buy into a particular role. So if the role has just been created, is there buying from others in the business? And if this has been created, what does it mean? And the, the bandwidth, the autonomy, the accountability. And I think that's, that's a good one. What they think, you know, we would always put a measurable marker in the sand when someone joins 6090 days, you know what, what do you see? I think understanding from a business what we would want to see in that first 6090 days. I think that's been quite good. You know, if I was to be offered the role, would you what, what's your expectations on delivery in the 1st 60 to 90 days? I think that's always good. And is there anything that I should know about? Like is there anything that, you know, I don't want to say fighting fires, but is there anything that would need my immediate focus? What would that be? What would you want me to prioritise over anything else? They're probably some good questions. Speaker 2 Yeah, great. And I guess post interview and one's hired in your experience, what do you it's going to be different every time I know, but are there things that all great E suite leaders who make success of the job do in the 1st 6090 days? Is there a regular? Speaker 3 And I first and foremost at that level, you don't need to change the don't need to fix things that aren't broken. So don't go in to glorify or make a stand or to demonstrate you are AC suite. I think people, well, I know people here would not, yeah, you wouldn't get the buy in from our people. Think a level of being curious, knowing at that level you don't need to know everything. You don't have to have all the answers. You just need to know how to bring the best people together to drive whatever it is that you need to deliver on. And so it comes back to things that I've said during in our conversation. Be curious, ask the questions and know just because you're in that seat at whatever level it is, see, you know, COOCTOCPO, you don't have to have all the answers. And being humble is what I would say. Speaker 2 Love that. And they go hand in hand, right? Humility and curiosity. What's the phrase? You can't learn what you think you already know. Okay, great. And so I guess a couple of things to end on then. Is there anything that you think organisations really look for in a C-Suite hire? But they don't really tell you that they're looking for that. Speaker 3 I couldn't speak for anybody else, Ma I, I personally, the culture that we've created here and the way that I hope people would view us as is we're honest and transparent. So if somebody came for AC suite job or any job, if they didn't give it and they invested time in an interview, we would give feedback and the do you know for me, I think we're very clear with what we're looking for and we're very honest because if we wouldn't, how could someone demonstrate that? Speaker 2 Let me phrase it slightly differently because I understand that you've been honest. Is there anything that perhaps you perhaps organisations believe is implicit that they will be looking for in the C-Suite hire but someone who hasn't already had AC suite role might not realise is implicit? Speaker 3 Good question, reframed. I for me personally, I think it's about the people leadership piece is that people who haven't been in that C-Suite level still focus on the delivery that they've put forward as opposed to taking a function and then the wider business on that journey with them. So that is important and I think that's what you need to demonstrate, speak about and shout about. Speaker 2 I don't know who's listening, who's in the head of or C-Suite -1 and really wants to take that step up in the in the near future, next couple of years. Any practical advice from things that they could go and do immediately? So, so not kind of general stuff, but actions that they could take in the next week or two to start them on that journey. Speaker 3 So do they say, I think the phrase is act, dress, be the role that you want before you've actually got that role. So I think for me, demonstrate that you're already thinking and operating at that level. You know, think about experiences or projects or something that you could be involved in that is more about just your function is about a wider piece. If you're coming with a concern, issue, problem, whatever it is, have you got the solution and have you thought about how that can be executed? And think about things confidently about the impact that that may have on people growth, business growth, the risks, the culture, commercial priorities, and that is all coming from that one individual. I think you can do that. And as I've said, you know, you could be, you know, for me, it's not necessarily the title, it's about what you're doing day-to-day. So look for those opportunities, grasp those opportunities, and then make sure that you demonstrate that in your CV, in your cover letter and then when you're interviewed. Speaker 2 Great, fantastic Claire, that was brilliant, really insightful, really enjoyed it. Thank you for taking the time. Speaker 3 No, thank you. Thanks for asking. Speaker 2 See you soon. Bye. Speaker 3 Bye.