Claiming Your Baggage with Kier Gaines | Booked, Blonde & Busy w/ Olivia Ponton

Hank joined BJ's Wholesale Club the day he became a father of 30. I coach football. Now, Coach Hank saves up to 25% off grocery store prices. 30 pounds of pasta, 3 cases of protein bars, 75 sports drinks. And that's just pregame. He knows teamwork, and BJ's knows savings. This is your home, Coach. Home of the Save. Join for just $20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for 6 months. Open soon. Limited time offer. New members only. BJ's. Home of the Save. They're bazaar. They're bazaar. I like that word. They're bazaar. You got a syllabus now. That's my luggage. Has a hole in it. Has a stain on it. It's raggedy as hell, but it's mine. My baggage is pink and sparkling. It's got a lot of holes in it. Hell yeah. It's mine. Bro, I agree, because I'm a huge fantasy. He's calling me girl. It is so funny to me. You're one of the girlies today, okay? Hi, angels. Welcome back to another episode of Booked, Blonde, and Busy because the hottest girls in today, guys, read. I'm Olivia Ponton, and today we are joined by a licensed therapist who has probably been on your For You page, Kier Gaines. His book came out in early September, and I am so excited because that means I get to ask him a lot of questions that I'm genuinely curious about in my own personal life. So without further ado, Kier, welcome to Booked, Blonde, and Busy. Thank you for having me. I feel so booked, so blonde, and so busy right now. Oh, blonde right now? Yeah, look at this. It's a state of mind, that's what I say. So before we get into it, we want to do the beverage of the day, which we have some unpopular opinions about this. So this is the poppy. This is the sour apple. Are they a sponsor? No. Okay. No sponsor. You can talk if you want to. Hey, I'm just trying to make sure I know where I am. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Like. I don't think I would pick this up on my 7-Eleven run, unfortunately. It's not for me. I'm sure they have other delicious flavors, but that one is not. That is outside my ministry. That's outside of it. So for people who are listening right now or watching, and they might not know you, can you give me like a little rundown? Yeah, sure. For sure. What's up, y'all? Hey, everybody. My name is Kier Gaines. I am a licensed therapist. I am an author. I have a brand new book that's out. It's called It All Starts When You Do. How to Do the Real Work of Self-Healing. I am a content creator. I am a keynote speaker. I'm a podcast host. And I truly believe that people are capable of making good decisions. We don't have an information issue. Sometimes we have an instruction issue. So that's why I wrote my book. You're like you wanted to say period. Yeah. I saw it. I saw it on the tip of your tongue. Sometimes when I do my podcast, I literally have to like undo the things that I would normally say in real life. Why? Because it's just, I'm like, period. Like, shut up. People come here for you. So just, you know. I know. Let it all hang out. Let it chop a fly. All right. So Book 20 Busy is about misconceptions and the way that we like to challenge them. So what do you think is a misconception that people normally get about you? Ooh. I think that I'm aggressive. Really? Yeah. I mean, I walked in and I hugged you and we're smiling. It's different, but I don't have, the older I get, I have less of a desire to have the mask on that makes other people feel comfortable sometimes. Like laughing at jokes that aren't funny or like encouraging people like egg in the morn when I really don't care. I don't feel that as much. So I don't like, I don't have a resting smile anymore. I just have a resting middle-aged man face. And it's, it's not always. It's happy. And I think people mistake that for being aggressive. Well, really, I'm just minding my business. Now we're going to get into your book. Give me like a 60 second pitch or give the audience a 60 second pitch. Okay. 60 seconds. Yeah. Let's, let's condense this very nuanced thing down into 60 seconds. It's so hard to talk about for that reason, just because there is so much to it. So I wrote a book about healing because I'm a licensed therapist. So people come in and we pretty much do. A thing like this where they get very comfortable. I learned a lot about them and I don't tell them what to do. We just kind of ask questions and we get comfortable moving around shame, blame, and guilt in order to get to the heart and the truth of things. And then we experiment with different ways that life can look, you know, if you feel in depression or anxiety or you, you're going through grief, you have a hardship in your life, or even if it's not something that tumultuous, maybe you just need a shift in perspective. That's what people come to me for. And what I realized. I realized is after a while, um, people really feel powerless in their own lives. They feel like they don't have control. They feel like they don't have autonomy. They feel like they're kind of waiting for something to happen until they can make their next step. And I don't necessarily think that that's true. I don't think that you don't have control and autonomy. I think you don't feel like you have control and autonomy. So I wrote a book. I wrote the book because these are the steps that I take to bring people toward healing all the time, where you can separate your feelings from your identity. It's one thing to be angry. It's another thing to feel angry. It's another, it's one thing to be a failure. It's another thing to feel like a failure. So how do you ask yourself, how do you interrogate your thoughts and feelings to make sure they don't overtake you and have you living in a reality that isn't really in front of you? No, I'm thinking about my life choices right now. And I'm like, Hmm, well, that is the goal of the book. That's great. And to be able to walk you safely through it. Because you can think about your life choices and then Olivia, the first thing you can do is feel bad about yourself, feel stupid or feel guilty or embarrassed and, and that's okay. But how do you walk safely through those very strong feelings while still working towards some sense of healing, some sense of resolve is still building some sense of resilience all the way. You know, that's part of claiming your baggage. When, if, if you get off the plane, you, you take responsibility for y'all that's my luggage has. A hole in it has a stain on it is raggedy as hell, but it's mine. And I can learn to like it. I can learn to love it. I can learn to manage it. I can learn to deal with it, but taking accountability for it and examining it and making sure that that you know, that is yours and you know how to fumble through it is the best thing that you can do for your own mental health and growth. My baggage is pink and sparkly. And it's got a lot of holes in it. That's right. It's yours. And it will change over time. It may be less sparkly. One day, or you might get, yeah, it's okay. That's what happens in life. Or you may get a reupholstered and it may be a completely different color and not have those holes in it anymore and look unfamiliar to you, but it's still very much so yours. You use a metaphor in the book about a pebble. I thought it was really funny. I really enjoyed that. What do you think is your pebble? My pebble? Hank joined BJ's wholesale club. The day. The day he became a father of 30. I coach football. Now, Coach Hank saves up to 25% off grocery store prices, 30 pounds of pasta, three cases of protein bars, 75 sports drinks. He knows teamwork and BJ's knows savings. Home of the Save. Join for just $20 at BJ's.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months. Open soon. Limited time offer. New members only. BJ's. Home of the Save. I'm not going to give you a bulls**t answer. You can think. I'm going to give you a legitimate one. What is the pebble in my shoe right now? For those that don't know, a pebble is something that, you know, when you have a pebble in your shoe, this is what inspired me to write the book. You can keep walking with it and it hurts, but it's not killing you. But the longer you walk with it, the more painful it becomes. And sometimes we don't stop and take the pebble out. We just keep walking because we think it's not bothering us that much until it ends. Until it is. And then even when we remove the pebble, the pain is still there. The pebble in my shoe right now is being present. Being present. I think that there's a part of me that believes that if I just keep going and I just keep moving, eventually the ability to be more present will just land in my lap. My conscious mind knows that that's not true. So I use tools like just changing my perspective. It's not always that I'm not present. I'm growing into the understanding that my idea of presence just looks different. It may not look like being able to sit in the moment and internalize every single thing that's going on with me in real time. My presence is more reflective. So after the situation happens, after the high emotions, after the moment, I'm able to sit and think. And while I'm not being present with the moment, I'm being present with the memory of it. I have to take into consideration what my brain chemistry does. So you're. You'll go through something. Sorry, I'm just understanding this. You'll go through something and then you'll sit down afterwards and you'll process and that's when you'll be present with the memory of it. Yeah, absolutely. Me being present in the moment is just not something that's always available to me. Why do you think that is? Because you're a parent and you're like paying attention to other people in your life? Or what? I think it's a little bit of everything, to be honest. I think that's just not the way my brain is constructed. I think that things have happened to me in my life that give me an aversion to sitting in the moment. I think that. that the way my brain is wired is, I do a lot of thinking and not a lot of experiencing sometimes so sometimes I'll do something like instead of just walking really fast down the street I'll slow down hey whoa why am I in a rush slow down just a little bit instead of eating really fast I'll slow down I'll ask myself questions what does this food taste like what does it remind me of does it bring up a memory what's the consistency is it chewy is it soft it's a little mushy is the first bite different than the second bite I try to force myself to slow down to give myself a better chance of experiencing the thing interesting I've literally never done that ever in my life sometimes I calm down but like I think I'll have like mornings where I have that where I'm like okay this morning's gonna be a slow morning whereas especially in New York I mean I'm sure you can understand when you're here like you you did three things today you're just like that is my every day here it's like I'm constantly going from this to this to this to that and it's like to a certain extent like I just gotta slow down I'm like I need to take a vacation from my vacation from this from that and I'm like I this is unrealistic like people don't get a vacation every single month like this is crazy so you have to find ways to not make your day-to-day so repetitive is not the correct word but um like on a constant cycle of chaos can I challenge you really quickly because you've got a lot of followers you're very public facing it's different when you're public facing you can't just always go into a restaurant sit sit in a corner by yourself scrolling your phone and maybe have a cry you know without anybody noticing this you it's different you have to cater your restorative practices to your experience yeah you also don't live like your average person's life you know you're in front of microphones you're in front of a camera don't know as much about the average person that walks down the street next to them in New York City as they may know yeah okay that's valid I see where you're coming from because for the most part it's like I would say pretty much live I think I live a pretty normal life like I don't let things like that like I'll go to a cafe and I'll cry a girl will come up and ask for a picture as I'm like bawling my eyes out and I'm like bro read the room like I remember so vividly I used to date someone that went to UCLA this was like ages ago and we were in the middle of our a heated argument like a screaming your argument I'm bawling my eyes out we are going at it this poor little girl comes up to me and just like hey can I have a pic as I'm like screaming crying and I was like are you kidding me you want a picture with me like this right now like I would love to see that picture I'm not gonna lie to you it would bring up a lot of trouble you took the picture oh yeah I'm gonna say no I'm never gonna say no but that's another thing like when you're public facing there's a lot of people that are there's an expectation that and and you I don't know how you feel about this you can share if you want but there's an expectation that you have to always be accepting of everybody's desire to be a part of your moment or to just capture a moment with you everyone's constantly like this and they don't mean any harm they just they love you they see your pictures they hear your story they listen to your podcast they have some sort of relationship with you even if it's just one-sided so when they see you they're like oh my god I'm gonna be like oh my god I'm gonna be like oh my god I'm gonna be like that's an opportunity for them to connect with you yeah meanwhile you're dying when you're having the worst moment of your life yeah but there's an expectation for you to deliver or perform or appear a certain way and that takes something special out of you and you have to have different restorative practices yeah so that's interesting I just always try to view it as like I'm lucky to even be in the situation so even if I'm like down bad about something I try not to let it actually bother me how do you deal with that like if you're going through something in a public like say you're at the mall and you're like oh I'm just trying to find these clothes or something like that and you're like freaking or something's bothering you and then someone comes up to you into the middle like how do you deal with that so it happens a lot I'll be out with my kids they'll be screaming having note downs my kids don't care that daddy's on tv and people know him they don't care you know they don't care that's the guy that tells me no to candy that's all they know and um sometimes people will come up and they'll ask for a picture or they'll want to share a moment with you and they'll ask for a picture or they'll want to share a moment with you and that helped them out or saw them through something that was really difficult and I'm just really honest with this hey man I really appreciate the love but right now it's not a good moment I'm so sorry man it's nice you know what happens when I say that nothing people always understand really always understand wow you can say no wow you can say and it's so liberating to say no because in many ways I'm sure that powers them to do the same hey I really it's I'm not shooing you away I'm not um I'm not denying you at all but just well I guess I am in a way but this is just really not I'm in a really human moment right now and in advance I really really appreciate you understanding that's nice maybe if I'm having a mental breakdown in public I should try that try it try it be like I'm sorry I'm not okay so look this is what I talk about in the book so I talk about practicing doing the thing so let's say you have a hard time doing the thing you have a hard time saying no to people you want to start saying no when it's inconsequential when there are no there's nothing that's going to happen that's going to make you feel bad in the long run I started practicing in the mall when people will walk up and say hey you want to try this cologne no hey man can I clean your shoe no knock on my door hey I like to sell you no and the more I said no and got comfortable selling saying no and knowing that that person's world isn't over after I say no I became more confident in my ability to say no and now it's it's easier not easy not easy but easier to say no in more consequential moments a topic that I saw that you've talked about but not too much I want to challenge you with a scenario a scenario kind of okay you've talked a lot about how social media is different for men versus women and social media is specifically marketed for to make us depressed question mark FOMO feeling of unfulfillment that we don't have oh yeah social media is designed to make you feel like you're missing out yeah how do you think specifically it affects men versus females because I get a female perspective okay because my for you page is like all the makeup that I need to buy all the parties that I wasn't invited to all the vacations that I was left out of like do men feel that because I feel like there's less males like posting like their shopping haul you know what I mean no I think it's there's there's a version of that specifically for men so let's let's put men in a different categories because they're different factions of men divergent there's different factions of men and we're attracted to different things so there's like this looks maxing crowd like these guys that are looks maxing right listen I come from the air if you ugly you just you just accept it bro like you just you just own your uglification but um there's those guys and I think the way that it's marketed it excludes men who feel like their physical traits are inadequate so hey man you gotta you gotta jawline you you got skinny shoulders and it's not really clear what they're doing it for but it's just saying that the peak the ideal of peak masculinity is this and you're not that so you need to get here then it's like the fitness bros you know look at your skinny arms and your little twig legs bro a real man can deadlift 400 pounds easy you're not a real man because you can't do this and then there's this unique genre catered toward married men or men who are in long-term partnerships you know you're you're you're a partner she doesn't respect you in order to earn the respect you have to not care it's like steering men in the wrong direction with generalized bs and for the longest time men had this kind of like moral uh whatever it was like huh look women are so susceptible to social media look you can just tell them what feels good and they'll believe it and then here comes red pill content when you're telling you're telling men what feels good you're validating their experiences don't get validated anywhere else and that's the honey but aha here comes the poison in order to do that you have to be this type of human being so I think it's very similar in terms of the exclusion saying that masculinity looks like this and you're not a real man if you don't do it but just in different genres it's in different fonts and if you really want to make a man feel terrible make him believe that his masculinity is minimized in some way do you think men ever get threatened okay I this is just something that I do with when I meet a man in my life that is not even in like a flirtatious tone like if I'm going out to dinner and there's a guy and I'm like oh my gosh like he just has such a feminine energy and aura to him what's that mean um just a little bit like how they carry themselves they're just a little bit more like oh like a little bit more whimsy yeah but also just like the way they kind of speak would kind of be are the things that they talk about or the jokes that they make it's just like oh I can just tell you're like a little bit for more for the girls like not that you're gay by any means but that you're just like a little bit more like in touch with that side okay and I've been I used to not tell men that now I just do it and I'm just like you're just like you're just like you're just Like, you know, you really have like a strong feminine – sense and maybe that's because you were close with your mom or you have a bunch of sisters or your you and your girlfriend are like inseparable and a lot of men recently have been taking it in a good way as a compliment whereas i feel like maybe like five years ago when i would see guys and i would just kind of like point that out to them they would get very offended by that that's interesting i don't by the way this is becoming less terrible the more i drink it it's a little bit less nasty um you know i think it just depends it depends on where someone's masculine identity is like you just when i walked in i said something you like girl when my wife first started doing that i had to correct her every single time really yeah like i'm not a girl and i'm a i'm a dude like i'm a dude dude it's i'm the dutiest dude like spitting on the ground riding dirt bikes with your shirt off fishing like oh that scar just healed up type of dude yeah but it's i guess that doesn't bother me anymore because i just for one she's not gonna stop like she's gonna keep doing it but also uh it's it's a signal of how comfortable she is talking to me you know i don't i don't think anyone would define anything i do as like a flair of femininity but i also i'm a licensed therapist and the majority of my clients believe it or not are women and really oh absolutely people think i'm only a men's therapist i have thought that everybody thinks that no , i want to say that it fluctuates but usually anywhere between 40 and 70 percent of my clients are women wow yeah ranging in age like not everybody not everybody is my age not everybody looks like me um so in order to understand where they're coming from you you kind of gotta get in their world and get in their headspace a little bit how do you do that um by being genuinely curious genuinely caring i actually want good outcomes for you so i ask questions and i ask where it's okay to push a little bit sometimes i say hey i want to challenge you a little bit and sometimes she's not ready for that and sometimes she is and it's going with the flow going with her comfort and still holding her in positive regard believing that she's strong enough to persevere through these crazy challenges in her life trusting her with the hard truth wow do you think you have predominantly more females because men are more scared to go to therapy i think it's a lot of things i think in one way men are a little bit more apprehensive to go to therapy i think also therapy lends itself to the way that women communicate with other women more than the way that men communicate with other men and wait expand on that so they did a study that shows that oftentimes women talk face to face like kind of how we're talking i'm this is what i do for a living so i'm really comfortable with this is not a problem but men talk shoulder to shoulder men don't really talk face to face i don't know all the meta science behind it it's a better question for a sociologist i think it may be something about an immediate threat of danger like just the when you're face to face with another man there's always uh there's always space for violence yeah like it can go down at any moment but so when i'm having a therapy session with a woman we can talk face to face and if it's effective it's effective if i'm having a therapy session with a man there's two things that i'll do sometimes we'll talk shoulder to shoulder and we might do like a puzzle or something and then we'll talk face to face and then we'll talk shoulder to shoulder or something just to just to get your mind off the awkwardness of having this type of intimate face-to-face conversation with not just another person but with another man for the first time or we'll toss a football around or we'll walk if if if wellness wants men to be better men have to want to be better one but two you got to meet men where they are and not just look at men as hairy awkward women like it's that's that like men aren't just like like weird women men are men it's a it's a totally different culture and if if that's what you want for your client you have to meet them there when i was a teacher we had a saying if a student doesn't understand the teacher has to do a better job of teaching and it's just saying like you got to meet people where they are if you want them to ascend to where they need to be hank joined bj's wholesale club the day he became a father of 30 i coach football now coach hank saves up to 25 off grocery store prices 30 pounds of pasta three cases of protein bars 75 sports drinks and that's just pre-game he knows teamwork and bj's knows savings this is your home coach home of the save join for just 20 at bj's.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save what do you think the biggest difference between like a female client and a male client like versus like what they generally talk about or bring up what do you mean like for like me and my therapist oh you got it i've been going to her for it's our 10-year anniversary let's go i started going to her when i was 14 and like i genuine like generally talk about like friendships family and like relationships do men normally talk about similar things or do they just kind of go off into like work oh i got you i see what you're asking me the difference between what men talk about and what women talk about in therapy is negligible it's almost the same thing really yes every humans have the same difficulties it's relationships it's um the feeling that you have inside your own body it's uncertainty about the future uh it's uncertainty about like your values and your moral compass changing a little bit um and it's trying to put words to feelings that you can't necessarily capture with words sometimes you don't like that people put like an ed at the end of heel okay wait a minute there you actually you know what you're talking about yeah but like i don't agree with that okay tell me why i think well for example i've been through some stuff but and i've done a lot of work on the things i choose to heal i put like my 10 toes down like i'm gonna get better from this okay number one example like i did eating disorder for years and while i definitely think eating eating disorders can come back i would like to say that i'm like healed for it right now because i'm like okay it started i like half healed from it i relapsed it got really really bad for a while there and then it eventually like i did the actual like science practice speaking to nutritionists figuring out the whole nine yards figuring out that you're like supposed to work out and eat something before like that was a mind-changing revelation for olivia so i just think the terminal the maybe you don't heal from everything but i think for some things there's like a little acceptance okay i think you said it though because you're not wrong we don't agree but you're not wrong but you didn't say i am healed you said i have healed okay have healed signifies the distance that you traveled in the journey i am healed says that i put a lid on that jar and it's just not a thing anymore there used to be a show back in the day called west wing it was about like martin short was the president it was a long time i haven't heard it's okay we don't gotta do that it's cool but um in the show he said not martin short martin sheen ah thank you thank you thank you thank you i said martin short no that's a totally different actor it's fine if you're under 30 you don't know what i'm talking about anyway just go with me um he there was a guy there who was an alcoholic and one of the people walked up to him he said hey man congratulations like you're not an alcoholic anymore he says no i'm always one drink away from being an alcoholic again he has healed but he is not healed it's it just it gives credence to the journey that you've gone on and the work that you do to maintain the status that you now have and eating disorders are super super tricky yeah they're very tricky so congratulations to you on that but yeah you you have healed you heal tremendously it's just and i'm not trying to change your mind put a little bit more on top of it i like challenging it up there because i'm like oh my god i'm not gonna do that i'm not gonna do that i'm not gonna do that i have to deal with this rest of my life it's listen i i have depression and depression is something i'm like ah i gotta i gotta deal with this for the rest of my life i'll never be healed from it it's that's not the way that thing works i'll always have to deal with it but i've been dealing with it for so long and i've managed it so effectively at times because we have regressions right um i've i've dealt with it to the fact that i feel better and i feel like i'm better and i feel like i'm better and i feel confident in my ability to continue to heal from it i'm not in a rush it's one of the uncomfortable truths i talk about in my book i mean i'm i'm not over something that happened to me you know i'm not in a rush to say it's over the hard part is done i'm past that no no no i'm i won't be disillusioned by that i'm still going to deal with it would i like for things to be different absolutely i like to never think about it but that's not my reality and i have to work within the confines of the reality that is mine not the one that i wish i had but i'm not in a rush to deal with it i'm not in a rush to say it's over woo the hard part is done i'm past that no no no i'm not the one that i wish was i'm going to share an honest thing so i had this friend for a few years we had this like bond like almost like a sisterly bond and i think it rooted from the fact that we enjoyed doing the same things and she was in my industry so we traveled a lot together we partied a lot together we had all the same friends we would talk to similar people um and that was just kind of the root of it and um they Jen, like you're kind of talking, we started growing apart a little bit. She was a little bit younger than me. And it got to a point where I was like, I can't be your friend anymore. The decisions that you're making do not align with my morals. Like life decisions? Like one example. Or like behavior decisions? Like both. Okay. Like, for example, she would like cheat on her boyfriend. And then she'd expect me to make her feel better about it. And I was like, no, I don't agree with cheating. And I would tell her that. I'd be like, I don't think what you did was okay. And then she'd be like, you're being such a bad friend. And I was like, I get it that you want me to sit here and sympathize with you right now. But you also just ruined this poor guy's fault or poor guy's life. And like I get it. Relationships are so complex. I'm like, I'm sure there was something else going on. But so there's something like that. So we eventually stopped being friends. Nothing ever happened. There was no big fight. It was just more so like I stopped. And. Answering her, stopped reaching out. If we were at similar parties, I wouldn't like be with her that whole night. I would go and, you know, make new friends or talk to other people I knew. And she started noticing and she was picking up and she'd call me more. She would use our like mutual friends to be like, oh, tell Olivia I miss her. Like I want to get dinner with her this weekend or something like that. And I just wouldn't really reciprocate. And I would explain to those mutual friends like this is where I'm at with it. I don't feel comfortable having these conversations with her because I don't think she'll be able to understand. But also I'm not going to push my feelings aside just to make her feel comfortable. But in the past like six months, I've started missing her. And this probably happened like over two and a half years ago. And I don't know why I'm missing her. But it's like, you know, when you're in a toxic relationship and the highs are really high and the lows are really low. And I miss the really highs. But then when we have the really lows. I'm like, oh, I never want to speak to this person again. So like, what do you recommend? You can also ask questions. So, yeah, I have some follow up questions. So you said that she would call initially, like after the cheating thing. And I'm not I don't support that. She called initially said that you wouldn't answer or you go to a party and you hang with other people. Did you ever have a conversation with her that not inferred, not not hinted towards, but blatantly said, hey, I don't like to be hated. I don't want to be your friend anymore. I would say I don't like that. I would tell her very openly. I don't agree with what you're doing. It makes me feel uncomfortable. But I wouldn't say like, I don't want to be your friend. I would just like tell her I don't respect this. If somebody were to be doing this to me, I would be very upset and very hurt. So you let her know where you stood. Yeah, I was very open about like this. I don't agree with this. But you didn't have the direct conversation saying that I don't want to be your friend anymore. So there's a thing that happens. Here where there is you all are experiencing two different things. It sounds like to me one more clarifying question when you would see her at a party. Did you speak to her or did you just kind of like keep it cordial or did you just like like sometimes it would be cordial. OK, like I think in the beginning I would keep it very cordial. We'd be like similar tables or similar dinners and we'd like when it's set next to each other. But we'd be close and we'd like, you know, sometimes talk. And then now if I say. If I see her at a party, I won't go up to her, but she'll almost always come up to me and say hi. I was going to ask you, is her energy about the same or is it has it changed over time? I think to her there was like a dip where she was like, OK, potentially she could understand that like I was drifting. But then that was a very short dip, I would say. And then ever since then, in person, it's always been like she has been trying to mend that. So I think that there is something in the fact that you all never had the exact conversation that said the exact thing that you want to experience in this friendship. Like, I don't want to talk as much. And then there's not an opportunity to fix it unless you do ABCD. I don't think this friendship is going to work. I am going to fall back. So there I try not to assume that anybody knows anything unless I told them that directly, no matter how obvious it is. So I think like that part, it makes me wonder what her idea of everything was. If she really knows, like she can probably guess from your conversation, but if she really knows why you all had that fracture. And it also sounds like you all's friendship was based on shared experiences. You all had a lot of shared experiences, which is amazing. It's not enough to sustain a friendship. Yeah. And that's what like I used to drink a lot of alcohol as one does. When you're like 20 years old. And I think a lot of our situational friendships would be around the fact that both of us partied literally six nights a week. Like wherever we were, we could count on like, oh yeah, I'm sure she's going to be going out tonight. I'll just go out with her. And it's a good time. It's a good time. Yeah. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be the best of friends. Like I don't drink. I'm currently not drinking alcohol for a few months. And it's like, I definitely noticed that like I will go in and out of different friendships when I'm not drinking versus when I'm not drinking. Because if you're drinking friends and then you have your non-drinking friends. Yeah. And there's a good argument that it's not super substantive when there is other things involved, alcohol, whatever. But also, I think that my, if I was, I don't know everything, but my assignment to you, especially if you say you miss her, which would make sense. You don't stop loving somebody because they make decisions that you don't agree with. It sounds like you all didn't really have any, I hate the term closure because it's like perfect. That's like a balance. It's kind of not a real thing sometimes. But I think you all didn't have the conversation to let everyone know where everyone was. And also, I think there's a good argument that if she didn't really get a chance to know where you were and get the opportunity to change, not saying that she would. So it makes sense that you miss her. But if you were to reach back out and talk to her, it would have to be for unselfish reasons. Not because I miss you, but because we need to. Or even like, hey, it might not have been fair to you for me to just abruptly do it. This is where I was at the time. Perhaps I would handle that differently if I had another chance. But can we have a conversation about what happened? That way, everybody in this understanding or everybody in this friendship or ex-friendship knows exactly what happened, what their role was, and how the other person felt. They don't have to draw on it. They don't have to try to guess. They don't have to assume. They actually know. But yo, I'm going to tell you, it's going to be a super, super uncomfortable conversation. And you may hear some things about yourself that you don't like. Yeah. I welcome that in. Okay. If we can welcome that in and we can be in a place where I don't know what you want to make amends for. Maybe it's good to think about what you want this end goal to be. What do you want her to walk away from that conversation with? But I think there were a lot of conversations that should have happened that day. It didn't take place. I agree. Give it some thought. Think about how you want to do it. But make sure it's not for selfish reasons. Make sure so that you both can get an understanding. Yeah. Anyways, so the last little section we're going to do is I'm going to give you like a book boyfriend, like a book boyfriend, fake term. Wait, hold on. Describe it to me. What are we talking about? Sorry, you didn't know what ACOTAR is. I really got to talk about this. You got to slow it down for me. So in these fantasy books or fiction in general, obviously in most romance books, it is a man and a female getting together. These men, girls get really, really attached to and they become like your book boyfriend that you're obsessed with. So I'm going to give you like three popular ones in my world. And I want you to explain like why or like why don't you therapize. Therapize. Therapize. I like that word. Therapize. Yeah. I want you to give me like why do you think females, specifically young females, might be like obsessed with them? Okay. So we have Zayden. That's not what I thought you meant by this at all. I'm with you. Let's go. So you have Zayden from Fourth Wing. Okay. He's like brooding, super private. He lies to you constantly. Oh, Zayden. But he calls it like protecting. Oh, I didn't tell you because I'm just protecting you. Like one of those. Protecting you from what? Being sad or being disappointed? Yeah. Okay. And then like why does I'm protecting you read as love? Like, oh, he loves me because he's protecting me. But it's just lying. Protection is weird. Protection is this like weird part of masculine identity that feels very supposed to institute a feeling of safety. But you can manipulate what you think protection is supposed to mean. Protection can also be control. You can say, oh, I'm just trying to protect you. If your protection takes away somebody's autonomy, it's not protection anymore. Okay. Okay. If you're trying to stop, if your protection takes away my autonomy to decide whether to stay or leave because you're lying to me, that's not protection anymore. That's manipulation. I agree with that. I agree with that. I coach football. This is your home coach, home of the save. Open soon. Limited time offer. New members only. BJ's, home of the save. Oh, yeah. What is he saving her from? I don't, listen, I don't know. I don't know everything that's going on. So he's like saving. So Zayden in this book of fourth wing is like saving her from basically like dragons eating her. Okay. So he's keeping something from her so the dragons don't eat her? He's keeping something from her so the rebels in the book, like he's a part of the rebel group and she's not. Sorry, this is getting really nitty gritty. No, it's cool. And there's like certain things that the parents say he's keeping away from her, but he's helping her not die during these like games. These trials, as one might say. Okay. For her to bond with a dragon. Okay. This is really getting into the nitty gritty of it. Nice. Keep going. Okay. So. Yeah. There is an argument that his. He is kind of trying to protect her because he wants to save her because these situations, if she knew certain information, it could get her killed. It's still manipulation though. Yeah, I agree. Manipulation doesn't always mean that you mean somebody ill. Manipulation just means that you maybe withhold or you're trying to arrange the situation so that someone has a certain interpretation of what's going on. I agree. I stand on my argument. Okay. Even though it could. It probably is helpful to her. I'm not denying that, but it's still manipulation. I wish them luck. That sounds like a crazy ass situation. Dragons. Yeah. Yeah, that's wild. The second one is a character from Red Queen. Right there. The main character, Maven. So his mother got into his head and took out his ability to love. Like actually did that. And he knows that she did it. And he remembers what. That what he used to feel, but he can't feel love anymore. So why? That's so sad. I know. But why is a man telling us that he will never love us, but he's going to try for you like, and as an exception, like, why do you think women are so drawn to like, oh, he doesn't like anyone, but maybe he'll like me. It gives you a sense of exceptionality. Religion kind of works in the same way. It makes you feel exceptional. You are special compared to everyone else. There is a special place in my mind and in my heart for you. People are suckers for exceptionality. A good comparative is when you have a friend who's a total, like, like a trash bot. You know, they're a trash person. You go to a restaurant, they're mean to the servers, they're mean to their other friends, but they're not mean to you. And you internalize that as I'm exceptional. When in all actuality, it's just not your turn yet. Okay. Well, girls, now you know. Yeah. Don't fall for the exceptionality thing. A person is who they are. Just because you're exempt for the time being doesn't mean you'll be exempt forever. Yeah. So the third one is Johnny from Binding 13. All these cool names. And then Johnny. I know. Got Zayden, Maven, and Johnny. All right. Let's go. Well, Zayden and Maven are both from fantasy books. And then Johnny's from like a normal romance book. Of course he is. So. Does he have eight pack abs? Yes. Yeah, of course he does. Of course he does. So Johnny's 18, star athlete, carrying his entire family on his back. But he's in constant pain because of an injury that he had and was going through surgeries. And like when you're an athlete and you've maybe hurt something but it's not bad enough to get surgery, you'll just kind of like teeter on that line of like, oh, I'll just be in pain for the next six months until season's ending or whatever. And he never asks anyone for help and he doesn't tell anyone that he's in pain. Why is being like the only person? He would open up to someone intoxicating. Oh, are you coming up with this off the top of your head? No. That's crazy. So it's, I think it's a variant of exceptionality. But how many times have you heard someone say, you know, oh, he trusts me with all of his secrets. He never told anybody, but he tells me. It's, there's something in that level of having a person who doesn't, open up to anyone else, open up to you, that creates a bond. Kind of, you know, you talk about your friend and y'all had a bond over shared experiences. Think of it like a diet version of that. Um, it's, it's something that you share and it's a level of intimacy that isn't physical. It's very intimate and therapy sessions is kind of like that. It's an intimate relationship between you and your therapist a lot of times, because they know something that you don't, that you don't share with anyone else. And I think there's something to be said. About being that vulnerable with someone. I think we talk about that a lot, but there's also something to be said about having someone be that vulnerable with you. You see a part of them that no one else understands, you know them in a very special way. Um, and it also speaks to trust. This person must really trust me if they were ever able to tell me all this information and know that I won't tell anyone else. So it's, it's just another level of exceptionality. It's just in a different font. I'm just thinking. I'm just thinking about that and like putting that into my life. Like when, like that friend that I was telling you about, like, she had a lot of like the exceptional like mindset. Like she would be mean to everyone, but then she wouldn't be mean to me. And I would think I would be like on top of the world. You're like, I have another friend who I'm kind of going through this right now where she's the same thing. She picks like a best friend of the month and then you'll be the most important person in her life for a month. And then she won't talk to you after that. And it's like, I wonder why people do that. Getting your needs met. It feels really good. Didn't get your needs met. If I can, if I can take my little electric car and I can fill up at your station, once I get what I need, our relationship doesn't have a lot of other touch points. So what else would I do with it? And if I know I can come to you and I can be filled up and then I can leave. And when I come back, you'll let me fill up again. And I can leave as long as that cycle isn't disrupted. Why the hell would I ever stop? Very valid. No, no one says, oh my God, this place keeps giving me free food. I'm never coming back. Say nobody ever. Literally nobody. Interesting. Well, well, thanks for coming on Booked, Fun, and Busy. Yeah, this was a great conversation. I had so much fun. You too, I learned a lot. Yeah. I'm going to go home and literally journal and be like, okay, what do I think about this? What do I think about that? Yeah, write it down, get it all out. Well, this will have been out by the time that we post this video. So get it. Is it hard copy? Is it on Kindle? It's on everything. Audiobook. I narrated myself by the way. I was literally going to, that was one of my questions that I was going to ask you because I think when people audio narrate their own books, it's like 10 times more of an incentive. 10 times more like as a reason to listen to it. Yeah. Hold on. You got me thinking. Is that the word? Incentive. Incentive. Incentive. It's 10 times more of an incentive or an incentivize. Hey, who cares? The sentence is done. Yes. And that's your copyright there. Thank you. Can you sign it for me? Of course I can. What? Absolutely. Thanks guys. Bye. Home of the Save. Join for just $20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months. Open soon. Limited time offer, new members only. Escape to paradise on Florida's Gulf Coast when you visit St. Pete Clearwater. With so much to see and do, here's the perfect beach vacation. At St. Pete Clearwater in the Tampa Bay area, there's plenty of relaxation on tap if that's what you're looking for. Natural spaces, acclaimed museums, and attractions offer hours of fun up and down the beach. Up and down the coast, see all that St. Pete Clearwater has to offer. Named one of the world's most loved travel destinations. Your adventure starts here. So plan your trip now at visitspc.com. That's visitspc.com.