Circular Materials: Feedstock Creation with Constanza Gomez and Jose Salguero

[MUSIC] Welcome to the Untangling Circularity Podcast. I'm Cynthia Power, and I'm Laura Novich. Join us as we explore what the circular economy really is and how it shapes the world around us. [MUSIC] Welcome back to our season all about circular materials with a deep dive into textiles. Today we're exploring feedstock for textile to textile recycling. Yes, and we have two really fantastic guests for this conversation. First, Kastanzagomas, co-founder of Sartail. We have had on the podcast before. Sartail provides the textile industry with technology for the identification and traceability of recycling feedstock. And second, we have Jose Salguero. Head of sustainability and innovation at CASW El Salvador, which stands for Central America Spinning Works. And CASW is part of Intradeco apparel holdings company, which is a vertically integrated global apparel manufacturer, specializing in casual and active wear and sustainable production and solutions. The company emphasizes environmental responsibility through initiatives like recycled fiber and yarn production and solar energy expansion. So very cool. Thank you both for joining. Thank you for having us. Important question. What is your favorite used item that you own? Doesn't have to be recycled textile. You want to go ahead and say or? Yeah, it might be, I was giving it a thought because I have a lot, but it's a t-shirt that my burden logave me. It's super light and very comfy. Mine's actually this denim jacket that I'm wearing. I like wear it all the time. I thrifted it like ages ago and I love it. Makes me feel young actually. So I continue to again. Your magical jacket. I'm not the good jacket. Get it. Sorry, that was my daughter. She's sitting right next to me. I told her that she I want a podcast, but she clearly forgot. She heard magical. Well, nothing else about my magical jacket. Yeah. Yes. I want a magical jacket. I'm going to make a magical jacket. I want to feel young. So we're going to take a really quick break and then we'll jump into our conversation with Jose. Because that's it. Circularity only works if there are real systems behind it. Sintex fills that gap. Hands-on, real results, no blah, blah, blah, and greenwashing. Since 2010, they have managed over 300 million pounds of waste, more than 7,500 tractor trailers. They keep materials in motion, off-spec, branded, used, or damaged, keeping it all out of landfills. Want to strengthen your end of life strategy? Visit syntax.com to learn more. That's c-y-n-t-e-x.com. Okay, so we're going to kind of weave a whole story for you here to help to help understand this cool relationship and project that Jose and Jose are working on. So first, we just want to start with both of you. Can you introduce yourselves briefly and help us understand what role you play in the circular material supply chain? Because if you want to go first, your part kind of comes before Jose's part. Yeah, that sounds good. I mean, before and after, I guess. We're talking about circular economy here, right? There's no beginning and end. So, I'm Kansanza. As it was mentioned in one of the co-founders, the sort how we started the company almost four years ago, and now it blows my mind. And we really specialize in sortation technology. And what we do is we have hardware software solution that is able to identify materials color, a few other characteristics and textiles that are relevant for feed stock creation for recycling. And then we also have our software that companies it includes obviously the machine learning algorithms that help identify all these things. But we also track and trace everything that goes through our systems. So we know how many items have been processed, what types of items, and are able to provide a lot of information around what was processed at all of our clients. Awesome. How's it? What about you? I'm Jose. I'm the health sustainability and innovation at CAS, and the interact with our company. So basically we are like a vertical recycling solution partner. Since we go from fiber to garment, we can do a lot of developments and kind of adjust to the apparel market and needs. So we can develop the fiber, it's specific to a certain product. So we can go from fiber to garment in like within 12-mile radius, so that's very nice. We are basically changing agents trying to make a positive impact in the apparel industry. Very cool. 12-mile radius. That is impressive. In El Salvador. In El Salvador. Yeah. But we have an espinemil in Honduras, and we have partners in Guatemala too. Okay, so what we're here about feed stock. So let's. Can you dive into that? I mean, can you give us kind of a big picture, paint a picture, big picture, a big painted picture of feed stock and kind of like what the problem is or how you got started here in with Jose. I think the first thing to understand about feed stock is that I don't think anybody fully knows yet what feed stock is. And referencing your podcast with Sarah from "A Sarasant's You Can't I Already?" I'd never heard the term immature feed stock before, but I love it. I think that's exactly what it is. And I think we've spent the last 10 or 15 years in the industry developing these recycling technologies. And now that they're starting to scale, the question is, okay, but how do we control what we put into these recycling technologies? Everything has been so controlled up until now. It starts at a lab or some old-scale pilots. But how are we going to make sure the quality of what's coming in or the definitions and the specifications of what's coming in actually is consistent with what we originally tested. The reality is it's never going to be the same because obviously way, way different to get a couple of kilos of something to getting multiple tons of something. Right? And I think one of the interesting things there is we have to start figuring out what those specifications are and what the impacts of those specifications will be on the resulting recycling technologies, whether they're chemical or mechanical. And Jose, maybe here you can kind of add in, but like, for example, in mechanical cotton recycling, when you input a knit versus the woven, for example, there's certainly a difference on what that end product is going to be. And so it goes beyond materiality or what dies were present in the original feed stock that came in or what added is. Did it have pea face? Did it have something else? And there's so many of these questions that today we're just kind of scratching the surface. And so there's just this this wild kind of uncertainty to some extent, especially when we're talking about post-consumeric textiles. Because when we're talking about post-industrial, there's a lot more information, right? The company that like is managing that post-industrial has information to some extent on the dies that they use on, you know, the additives that they use. They certainly know with some level of certainty the materials that are in that yarn, right? That is not true at all when it comes to post-consumer feed stock. And it's a fact that you can't really do it through chemical testing. It's way too expensive in an industry that today actually needs to lower costs, like there's no margins for increased cost. And so how do we go about getting consistent quality feed stock for each of the technologies? And that is different for each technology and for each recycler, which makes it, you know, doubly hard for the companies that are trying to create these feed stock. So it's a really, really large problem. I think a lot of people get bogged down on the technology around it, like how many sensors can we put into something to kind of figure all of these questions. Out. And that's certainly part of the equation. But it goes beyond technology. We have to establish processes. We have to establish, you know, guidelines, specifications that are consistent. We have to establish standards. There's a ton around logistics. Like how are we going to trade these feed stocks? Where does it make sense to do different parts of the process? And these are all questions that are today. I can open the air. Great. Because I do want to add anything to that in terms of the bigger picture. Antx? Yeah, what constant. That's all is full accurate. The feed stock is pretty challenging when it comes to both consumer. With both industrial is easy because I can control, let's say, just give me 100% cut on the 50/50 length of the 60/40. So I know what I'm receiving. But with both consumer, yeah, post consumer is super challenging. The text are super, they have a complex blend. So if I receive a blend with a spandex, it's an internal goal for me because I can screw the machine up in the spinning. So it was there. doing on SORTAL, it's super, super important. We need to work closely with Postanza and that type of technology. Because I need to know what I'm receiving to see what kind of product I can put into. So it's free-chandent. Then the lack of visualization is a big issue too. They take that neighboring, we don't have textile labels, so fiber identification is very complex. That's where SORTAL comes in. In contamination, all the non-textile that we receive in the post-consumer is very challenging and time and person consuming. That's another challenge. And collection is very fragmented. So there's not just a hub of collection. We need to look up our feet to everywhere. So we need to ensure that what we are receiving, what the brand really wants, and that we can work with. And let's say that fashion has a lot of impact too because the quality is very low. So when we recycle it, the fiber links it low too. So we can use it like, let's say like rings for yarn, we can put that type of fiber. We can only use it like in back in years. So that's make it more difficult to find a product to use it. So there's a lot of factors that come in play here. It's really interesting you all are talking about beyond just sorting by, you know, when I think usually when I think about sorting for feedstock, I think my material, right, is a 100% cotton, 98% cotton, 95% cotton, all of those specifications. And you're going, you know, you're going deeper, is it knit? Is it woven? What type of knit? What type of woven? What type of additives? What types of dyes? I mean, it sounds like it's an extremely specific process, which all I can do in my brain is like, think about how hard that list is. But also, you know, I was very excited to have you all on to talk about this because I think that the project you're working on is the kind of project we'll need to see. Like it's, I would say maybe one of the first of its kind. And I think we'll need to see a whole lot of it. So could, could you help us understand what the project is that you're working on and concerns it, especially making sure that people understand like the, the geography of it as well, kind of like, yeah, but anyway, go ahead. Well, I'm Chilean, some of which are from Chile. And when we started this, we like, most of our clients were in the US. We have some clients now all throughout Latin America, but we had no active work in Chile, which was a travesty in, you know, my personal view, just because there's so much to do here, especially around end of life, right? Actually itself does not have like production of taxiles, but we have so much when it comes to second hand, you know, imports and second hand market. And obviously, you know, you guys have heard of the adricamides, or assuming people have and what that has caused. And so probably like a year or a year and a half ago, I was talking with, with my partner with Ocina, I was like, you know what, I, you know, now that we're more established and we have a little bit more leeway on what project we want to take on, I really want to do something here. And so, so we went and we talked with a lot of the importers here to try and understand, you know, their willingness to potentially do something. And one of the things that we kind of like kept hitting on was like, they, there was no willingness to do something for one or two times or something that was super small scale. Like, they managed like a small importer here, manages, you know, about 10,000 pounds, right? They're like really big players and things like that. There's no interest in doing something for like a time. Like I can't dedicate the resources to that. So they're like, okay, if you want to do something in the region, then we need to get some partner that is willing to do something a little bit larger. And we went out and started asking that was willing Mr. and me, there was like, there's to take something a little bit larger. And we had met for a couple of years before and kind of talked with him and was like, hey, is this something, you know, that interdaco would potentially be interested in? And I will say, like, it was one of the most fun conversations we've had. And I was like, please feel free to jump in. But like, his excitement and like, this is, this is awesome. Like, you know, please go, please go because that was so great. I was super like blown away and I was like, okay, I love it. I like it. I know the brand. I know the people. And so it's an old brainer for me. It's been the exact moment I was texting my boss, I have great news. And I was texting him in the CEO of interdaco, which is super engaged in sustainability and recycling. So I told them about the project and they were blown away too. So it was an old brainer. It was like, why not? If we can make a positive impact and we can scale it up, we should do it. So here we are. So can I just ask a secondary question there, like, why would you say they were blown away? I just want to hear the like behind that for people listening. Why was this different? Why was this interesting to you? I think that because we want to like give more than we take at interdaco so this is the thing our product was like a perfect fit for us. I think something else that, you know, Jose and I spoke like spoken a little bit about is like, we wanted to have or kind of needed to have a brand partner that was interested in what we were doing because like there was no point in us recycling everything and then having everything sit in interdaco or nothing being made with it. And so Jose was basically like, hey, there's this brand that I know that loves these kinds of things. And I think one of the things that really sold him on it was the story behind it. This was not just, you know, we're using recycle yarn, but there was this whole story with the outcome of desert and everything that I think really pushed him over the line of like, hey, this could really be something interesting. Not from the sustainability, just side, but like from a publicity side as well, you know, being completely transparent. You know, that's one of the things that like, there was really attractive to them at that point. And then when we had that brand partner on board, it was like, okay, how do we actually execute on this, right? We like, I wanted to take us through the operational flow here, but first I'm going to say, so this is a small, a small quantity because you're saying that like large, large, like you can't do, or other places don't want to do a small quantity. So this is doing a smaller amount for types. So no, so this is, we're talking about 20 times of feed stock material. So certainly not like a huge scale, but it's also not like a one to two time, right? Like we're actually filling up half a container's worth a feed stock here. Okay. So yeah, can you tell us like as much as you can about how like what's the first step, what happens now, what does the operations look like behind this? Sure. So a little bit of like background and like, Eki Kei, which is actually where I'm at right now, and like why the second hand trade is so big here. So Eki Kei itself gets, you know, the actual number is debatable between 60 to 100,000 tons of second hand clothing every year. And to give like orders of magnitude, Eki Kei itself is a city that has less than a million people. So it's not a big city, but there is specific regulation and Chile that makes the imports through the specific port really attractive from the financial sense. So like any second hand clothing that gets imported through Eki Kei does not have to pay any import taxes at all. This is not exclusive to second hand clothing. This part of legislation created to incentivize people to move to northern Chile because almost all of, or not almost all, a large percentage of our mining operations in the country are in the north. And so those need to be staffed. And this is part of the incentives, you know, you're going to get cheaper goods and your cost of living is going to be lower if you move to Eki Kei or like the northern part of Chile. And so that's part of the incentives of the region. And so a lot of clothing gets imported and a lot of goods really get imported through northern Chile. And so about 70% of what gets imported into Eki Kei actually comes from the US according to like UN trade data. So yes, a lot of post consumer goods that are collected, whether it's through good wills or other organizations in the US actually do end in Chile and not in America. These then get processed by a large importer so that they'll import, you know, these second hand goods. A lot of it comes unsorted Chile, or those countries that does not have regulation on importing sorted on sorted goods. A lot of it does come unsorted. And then they'll sort it here and create smaller bales based off different categories. So they'll sort into, you know, like in some cases over 200 different categories that then gets sold. And some of them to formal channels that are way smaller obviously than the importers. A lot of them get sold to informal channels and then gets sold in like illegal markets throughout northern Chile. Just to be super clear, most of what ends up in the Eki Kei desert doesn't get there due to like the importers, like these large formal companies that are importing goods. And then the next thing that gets their interest in the market is that they're not going to get sold. And then they're going to get sold in the market. since these are legal markets, they have to find a way to get rid of it. There's no know like collection infrastructure here that helps them out with that. So yesterday we said that it's not the formal like institutions that are making, you know, the outcome it is are going to, you know, those pictures, most people have seen. It's honestly somewhat a lack of infrastructure like the country itself doesn't have the infrastructure to die to deal with things that don't get sold. And again, just to be clear, like this doesn't mean that like you're importing like all of it that you're importing is waste. Sometimes like I said, these people need to turn inventory very, very quickly. And it might be a good garment and might be a wearable garment. But the right person that would have liked that garment didn't appear within that week's time that this person had to sell it. And so they need to get rid of it. So there's tons of flaws on and tons of things you could do to kind of improve on that. Obviously journey and how you manage those those garments. One of the things that we're trying to do is how do we lower the percentage of things that are unsolved. And so how can you optimize the sorting? Ideally upstream. So like with the importers so that you never get to the point of like, oh, you know, this has a stain on it. It's never going to sell on the market. So we should go that right. How can we intervene earlier in the process? So that garment never actually reaches that point. And that's kind of what, you know, Jose and I wanted to do. So we spoke with importers here. We spoke with stuffy, which is the organization where all of these importers are co-located in and started working on on a project here to figure out a way to instead of having these garments at the end of the like at the end of that cycle ending up, whether it's legal illegal landfills, that ends up going to someone like Jose, who could potentially recycle them. This is great. That was really fascinating. Yes. Great context. Very helpful. I learned something. So thank you for that. Okay. So the closed specifically like, what is the, what are the importers doing? What is the sorting process or this processing that needs to happen in order to get it to Jose? What does that look like? Yeah. So before that, like the first thing that we did with the Jose was a sample because we needed to know what that feedstock specification was going to be. Right. So like we sent Jose a sample of like, this is the type of things we can recover that are 100% caught in that we can recover from these importers, right? So that Jose could inspect them and see what kind of garments he would be getting and what, what specifications he would need in order for this to be successful. And I think that's why we've gone beyond just materiality. As you were saying, Lawrence yeah, like, yes, that's part, that's part of the equation. But with Jose really, it's okay. Like, I don't know, denim, it's not going to work. Like we don't want denim as part of this process, right? And so it doesn't matter if it's 100% caught in. Like we don't want to include denim as part of our pilot and there's technical reasons behind it. Why that's the case. So Jose, maybe you can explain a little bit of like how we came to the definition of what we actually wanted to do in terms of feedstock because that's, you know, there's a whole process behind that. Yeah. So basically, we're going to receive what constants are already sorted. We have some quality stations so we can, we're going to check. Then we can see like what the, like the greatest pathway to go with this waste. So the idea is to develop the Jarncombe, the fabric and the garment, adequate it to the waste. So if we use like denim, which is a woven, it's very difficult to recycle it and the fiber length is shorter than a knit. So for this in order to be like a easier development to apply to different garments, we need it to be needed. So that's, that's why we're just receiving knit. Now that makes more sense to what you were talking about before. Full picture for me. So okay, okay. Then what? Then once the waste is received, we're going to recycle it. So the idea is to, I don't know if you have ever seen like the recycled process, but we shred it and then well, the machine do the magic because I can go into specifics. But once we have the fiber, we're going to work with some Jarn development. We have some different Jarn counts that we're thinking on. And from then we're going to develop different fabric, not just the jerseys. We are going to try with jerseys, thermal pleases, French theories, a different range of fabrics. And then we go to garments, let's say a polo, actually the polo that I'm wearing, it's recycled and you, and so and we can do hoodies or whatever. So we're going to make a like a range of products and say, hey people, this is like a proof of case that with post-consumer, we can do this kind of product. So that the product, this project goes beyond just intradayco and sort of. So it's trying to get the people like to change their minds on the waste. Like let's say change the narrative of the attack of the thermal waste and the entire text of this in the world. So that's the whole idea of this project. That's so exciting. Yeah. I love that. Can you help us understand? Well, I'm curious when you were talking about the, you know, creating different yarns and different materials. I mean, you're also talking about being vertically integrated, which is just really different because you're actually processing the post-consumer goods to turn them into fiber, to turn them back into yarn, to turn them back into a textile. And you also have cut and sew. Yeah, correct. Wow. So you're you're overseeing all that yourself. And so you're also then able to, I think probably, where like if you imagine if those were all separate companies, you could run into so many problems and challenges where they're like, no, it's too complicated. But because if you have a goal and if you're if the leadership in your company is also behind this, then they can figure out how to move it through the whole process. So that's fascinating. I'm just going to ask, do you combine with the Virgin fiber as well or are you trying to do 100% recycled? So we do kind of both. We come to different lengths. So we can use conventional cotton and recycle cotton, but we can use the recycle polyester and the recycle cotton. So we can we can make like a 100% recycle garment or product. So it depends on the range or the garments that we want to do. But you always need a carrier fiber with the recycled product. Yeah, so it would have to be blended either with like a recycled poly. If you wanted to be like have a claim of 100% recycled or you could blend it with virgin cotton, for example, convention cotton as I was saying, if you want a 100% cotton garment, but giving the challenges of like the fiber length and the fact that we want to kind of establish that you can actually make quality products even using post consumer, that's not really at least today and at least the stage that we are not something that we're going to tackle right now. Yeah. And I have one other question about your processing process because when you are taking the post consumer, if it's nits, I'm imagining we're talking about like, be sure it's in such. Are you detrimming them or because you're doing mechanical? Are you able to like what is preparation for recycling? So we do remove all the non textile waste that comes into the t-shirt. That's why it's so important that they could assign. If you design the t-shirt well, it's easier for us to recycle to make it like a smoother pathway. So if we have a lot of contamination, we have the capacity to pre-process it. That's the name of the process. Like pre-processing, we remove everything that we cannot recycle in the machine. Does that include like a red polyester thread? Yeah. Or is polyester thread okay? But if we're working with our polyester blend, we can avoid cutting it. So it depends on the final blend and product. Right. Okay. So if you're going to make a 100% recycled cotton poly yarn, then if you have a 100% cotton t-shirt that has polyester thread in the seams, that's no problem. Yeah, that's not cool. But if you're aiming to make a 100% cotton yarn, partial recycle, partially new, then you would have to go in and cut off all of the seams that contain any non-content thread. Correct. Correct. Yeah, that's a lot of work. Yeah. But it's worth it. Yeah. I'm so glad you're here. You say that. It also sounds like the material of the products that you're making, you'd technically be able to take them back to and then continue to recycle them. Yeah. Yeah. The idea is to create like closed loop systems. So we can create a product and then receive it back. And we work with partners like in the region, we get their cut scrap and we recycle it. We make the yarn and we sell it back to them, then they give us a cut scrap again and again and again and again. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. That's interesting. So the brand that you're working with, I know we're not naming them, but did you bring that? Sorry, I think you said this already. You brought them in before you started the project or you brought them in as you were working on it. It was kind of part of if we're going to do this we need a brand partner. So like we didn't really kick off the project until we had a brand partner. But I knew the perfect brand of the guy. So it was super easy to get him engaged with it. Awesome. And what is the brand looking for? Like what did they. Can you talk about the like percent of recycle? Like about the kind of percent of recycled that you're creating for them? And like what would you say their goals are with this? Saving the textile industry I might say. Okay, that's simple. Yeah. Same. What else do they? I mean, so how much recycle content. Where are you? for a 50% but it will be a working progress. We need to do some testing but that's the goal. >> Awesome. And when will it be in market? When will the product be in market? >> We're still having that conversation. >> Uh-huh. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, unfortunately, cannot, cannot disclose that but hopefully soon. But we're not looking at these processes. >> Okay. Hopefully earlier than that. But it'll depend in part with some of the tests as they have to do and how all of those things work. I will say one of the interesting things that I learned through this process because again, we've always been earlier in the supply chain and now, thanks to those who have been able to be in a lot more conversations with brands is the importance of color. And so, like, we were taught, we obviously got this brand of what we spoke with multiple other brands when we were trying to get this up and running. And one of the things that we had to disclose is like, hey, there's going to be slight imperfections in color. Like, we can color sort, but given that it's basically consumer waste, the colors is not consistent, right? It doesn't matter if you sort for all blacks, like, there's certain tonality that are different, right? And even if we blended with another yarn on the other end, you'll still see some of those imperfections in the final garment. And it was interesting to see, we basically got completely different versions. Some brands that were completely turned off by that, that we couldn't guarantee the final colors. And then other brands completely embracing it and being like, this is part of the story. This is great. There's something physical to it that the conversation started for all of our consumers. They're going to be able to say, oh, somebody's going to say, oh, what's your start like then? You're going to be able to have a convert. But there was no middle ground, either they were completely turned off or like completely for it. And I thought it was like really interesting. Again, like talking about different variables that become relevant in this beyond material, because everybody gets very, very stuck. I'm like, okay, we need to separate the material, but like, we need to separate by color. We need to separate by, you know, construction and different things. And I think that was like something really interesting for me that I hadn't kind of envisioned when we started this, you know, this project that was going to be so relevant for the people that we are working with. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. That's also like, I guess like the history behind like a space die. I am, you aren't like at text dial. Right. It's because like part of it could be fully dyed and part of it couldn't. And so it became this new color. And so I wonder if that had like a similar embrace in me and in the opposite to. So, you know, changing the game here. That's cool. Has this changed anything else? Like, has this project kind of, I don't know, maybe opened your eyes to other things or changed any of your systems for the better or, you know, more savings, for example, or anything like that? Any specific examples? One of the things that I can mention at the beginning is, and one of the things that has made me really think about this is how you establish processes, right? Like prior to this, much of our experience had been selling technology. And to some extent we kind of like washed our hands off. Like, okay, here you have the device. I mean, not completely washed our hands. Obviously, we engage with our clients, but, you know, I wasn't the one implementing the processes in that moment. Whereas in this specific case, where a lot more hands on. And so I'm starting to kind of think through things that I had never thought before. Like, hey, like, where, where or when should the sorting happen? Right? Does it happen at the first moment that, you know, the importers doing that first, you know, quality sort, or does it happen when they're doing the second quality sort? You know, they've already separated into t-shirts, but not, you know, the different types of t-shirts. Maybe we only, like, especially if we're doing this for for a set. Maybe that's what happens. We don't have to press as everything. It happens only at that second level store, not the first level. And so it's making me think through of like, how do you optimize, you know, where these technology needs to be placed and fit versus or earn a question like, when do you pre-process, you pre-process, you know, first, you pre-process second. Like, there's too many questions around like when you should put all these things in place that I had never thought about before. And it's been really kind of questioning like, you know, should we add certain things to our technology that help kind of establish those processes, right? Like, we have a color sensor in our device. Most of the time, we don't, like, we just use it from a data perspective to be able to give information to management. It's like, you know, maybe, maybe it's information that's relevant at the sortation place. And like, it makes it easier for somebody at that moment, you know, hey, this is the type of block that we need for this project, right? And given that there's different technologies and stuff like that. And so it's really made me question kind of, how can we become more efficient beyond technology, right? Obviously technology has a huge space and a huge, you know, part to play here. But there's non-technology sides that also need to be optimized and also need to be thought about that I hadn't thought about before. I just want to add my my underlying to that. And really what I hear you saying, that is that there's only so much that you can figure out with technology without doing the actual operations of something. Absolutely. You know, touching the product and moving it and sorting it and pre-breathizing all of that, you're going to just come upon challenges or things that you imagined were one way and it's actually a different way. And it's just so important that that understanding that physical process and moving through it to on like for anyone involved in it, I think, feels like a hugely important stuff. I will also say, even for me, like, where technology company, there's certain parts of the process that I don't know that they need to be done by technology. And that at least today, it'll be cheaper to do without, right? Like, there's certain garments that I have to think have no reason to grow a civil war system. Like, I don't know, if you have a multi-layer garment, like, you're not going to pre-process it, it's going to be too extensive. Like, why are you even wasting the time scanning it? Like, there's no point, right? And the time and the expenses is going to take us to kind of be able to identify all of those things autonomously today. I don't know that they may sense. Maybe one technology gets cheaper, you know, and there's certainly other institutions that are doing that work, I think, yes, but I don't know that everything needs to be automated. I think you need to have a system of checks and balances, where some of it isn't, some of it isn't. And I think, again, doing this work and being kind of there, actually, you know, beyond just selling the technology, but like being there and being present, I think you start seeing where those spaces are, where technology is relevant and where today maybe technology is not relevant and it'll be relevant in, you know, five years or something like that, right? Yeah. How's A.G. on at anything? Yeah, so for us was how to prepare, adapt and be efficient with that post-consumer waste. So now I know how to treat the waste, what kind of product that I can like try to develop and to make like a proof of K to the brands to let's say, okay, let's change the narrative to the waste and you can create the closed loop system with your waste. So there's no need to the waste to end up in that account. We can work with the waste in the US or in Guatemala or Sabar. So kind of how to sell also the idea of recycling to the brands. So this helps us like how to sell them the idea to be more efficient in their eco design and how to prepare for a, let's say, the extended producer responsibility policies. So this will be a great project to tell them like, hey, we can do it and we need collaboration to make this work. Love that. After that, every time you say waste, I'm like, oh, you stop calling it that. You got you at some point, I feel like it has to shift from be called waste to being called unused input or unmaximized value or like something because it really isn't rebrand. I know what you mean, but it needs a rebrand and it sounds like you're the kind of person to do that. So I challenge you with that, sir. Our last question is really like, how scalable is this project in process and how confident are you after you're still, I understand in the middle of this trial, but how confident are you that you could scale this into larger offerings and programs? Because they why don't you start with that because part of it is your capacity. Yeah, so we can do it and we have an ongoing project that you will have news in a few days, I hope so. Because it's a huge, huge project for us in the recycling part of the business. So the capacity won't be an issue, but in order to scale, we need commitment for the brands and the customers. The customers need to put the way, not the way the feedstock in the correct spot in order to get it back to us and the brands to commit to a new development of garments and pearl with recycled contact. So it's all in sustainability, it's all about collaboration. So we need the brands and customer for it, but we can do it right, Constanza. Yeah, I mean, I was going to say there's two things there. I think one of them is we've already had a couple of other brands from our like first before I enter this that we're like, we're interested, but we kind of want to see if you're able to do this. And so we have kind of some somewhat soft commitments of like, hey, if you prove this to me, we would like to kind of move forward. with putting additional orders. And so that was kind of like interesting to hear. We'd have loved the period participated in the first run, but I least there's interest for a second run, right? I think one of the things that Hosanne I really wanted to test with this project was are we able to make this from a financial standpoint work, right? And like how far, like we understood, this is a small scale pilot. And obviously scale is really important. Like economies of scale are really important for the fashion industry and the tax on industry in general. So like we knew that this pilot itself probably wasn't going to be, you know, a huge money maker for anyone involved, right? But we want to actually kind of test how far away from that are we, right? Like are we able to legitimately sort and pre-process and create this feedstock for you at a reasonable price? And given that reasonable price is, you know, Hosanne and Tredekko able to make a garment at a price point that doesn't scare brands, right? 'Cause there's only a limited willingness, you know, to go for sustainability. Like let's be real, most of the decisions come down to quality and pricing, right? So that was one of the things that we wanted to test. So far on the feedstock side, and Jose, please be free to talk on the rest of the process on the feedstock side, we're kind of hitting those targets as, you know, being able to get the feedstock to Jose at the pre-spoint that we agreed upon was reasonable at the beginning of the project, which is really exciting from my point, 'cause it was aggressive and it's been hard. I'm not saying it hasn't, it absolutely hasn't. But we're going to be really close to that number, which is exciting. Again, for a pilot that's small, that if you scale, there's so many things that you could do, I'm not saying to have, you know, we're not gonna have tech margins here, but to have reasonable margins, right? And Jose, please, please, if you'd talk about your part of the process, but I think that was one of the things that was really relevant for me, 'cause if this pilot was completely blown out of the water in terms of financials, it would have made it really, really hard for us to scale. 'Cause I can't tell importers and my shorting partners, like, we're gonna go at a loss. Every time we do this, right? Again, there's only so much willingness to do things. And as much as regulation is gonna help, the reality is, regulation's not here yet. And, you know, it's definitely not in Chile, like it's not even really in that much of the vocabulary of most people here. Like, and so, like, it doesn't really matter if you're in the past in the US, you know, obviously it helps. But like, it's not like, people here are gonna see any other money for now. So like, we really needed to make that financial kind of story work and so far it has been good. So hopefully that's something, like, people here already asking, like, okay, how do we move to that next step? Given that those margins have kind of translated, which is great. - Yeah, that's 'cause, as I said, it's developed a great product and make it cost attractive to the brand. So far, so good. We have made it work. And since we manage all, basically all the supply chain, it is here for us like to crunch the numbers and look for efficiencies to make this work. So the idea to tell the brands, okay, here's the product, here's the cost attractive price of it. So you can, we can make it work and you can make it work with your customers too. But there's always a premium for being recycled because the set-ups in the machines and everything in efficiency, but we can make it work and that's a whole idea to make this like scalable. And we are gonna make it scalable. - I like that confidence, yeah. I love how it is. - Yeah. - I like that. I'm so inspired. This is the most inspiring conversation I've had in a long time. And I think I just, I can't underline enough. Like, what are you while I'm doing? I feel like you're kind of stepping out into, you know, you're building the bridge while you're walking on it and also that brand partner piece. I mean, everyone, I feel like, it's always so dependent on the brands which kind of kills me because I'm like, it just feels, you know, kind of the power of the influence feels out of balance. But I love that you, Jose, like, I've got this brand. I know they can do this and they're willing to build that bridge with you as well. And then, you know, great that you have others that want, you know, they want to see it real first. We all understand that, but it's also like, okay, then you need the first one, you know, that's out there with you doing it and you all of the first ones in that sense as well. So I'm just like, I'm so excited for you. And since that's when you started talking about this project over lunch, you know, like, I don't know, a couple of months ago, I was like, wait, you're actually doing it. Like, the fact that all of us so much of our clothes or post-cons of our clothes are falling to Chile and there's this, there's this huge problem and you all are actually in the process of solving it. At least for I would say like a large part of that problem, I find so inspiring and I just think here, I'm like so excited for you and I'm so excited that you're talking about scaling it and I don't know, I just, I hope everyone listening, I'm trying to say like, this is really special and this should be the future, right? Like if you could do it, then this could be really big and we could be starting to answer that question of like, what the hell are we gonna do with all of this post-consumer clothing? It can't be recycled, well, actually a lot of it can and this is how we're gonna do it. I mean, that's amazing. So, congratulations. - I will say that one of the biggest takeaways I just have from this conversation is how you approached it from the first place though where you looked at the full system and you identified where you could make an impact without like, I don't know, being too dramatic on the beginning or the end, right? You're like, well, where can we actually make change without also without not burdening people but making other parts like the bad guys in there. You were really identifying where you could make positive change. So, I don't know that, that's what stuck out to me too. It was like the whole story that you gave and how you figured that out, that's inspiring. So, hopefully that is to other folks as well. Just for even taking this as an example and inspiration for other projects as well, like how can you look at it that way? And think clearly in it. Yeah. So, thank you for that. - Yeah, so thank you both for that. - Thank you for your time. - We'll wrap on the positive note. Thank you both so much. - Yeah. - If you could figure where it can't wait to hear where that product actually ends up being sold and we'll make sure to do a post about it when it's on the market. 'Cause it's really cool. So congrats. Thank you again for your time. - Great work together. - Thank you. - Thank you guys. - Yeah, thank you. - Okay. (upbeat music) And that's it for this episode. Please follow us on LinkedIn and wherever you consume podcasts. And make sure you check out our website on tanglingcircularity.com. This episode was produced by Sam Arthin Long of Sangingland Studio. Thanks, Sam. (upbeat music)