Cinematographer John Toll, ASC

Speaker 1 Welcome back. On today's episode, we're going to talk about upgrading from being a PA to a second A/C, Braveheart, Legends of the Fall, Twilight Zone, the movie, and of course, operating while you're upside down. Just a little bit of business before we start. There may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. Make sure to check out our website, the op dot io and if you like it, become a member so you can watch the breakdown where operators talk about everything that goes into the making of a shot and read the musings where we talk about everything from quick tips to larger concepts behind operating. I may or may not take a couple of breaks during this episode, but I promise you none of them will be longer than 22 seconds. If you are enjoying the podcast, please follow us, like us, talk about us and share us with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back and enjoy the OP. Thanks for listening. Speaker 2 Live it up nice and quiet and let the roll. Speaker 1 Victor 30 Echo Tecton camera set in action. Hello everybody and thank you for joining in for the OP. My name is Dave Camides and I am the host here. I'm a a camera Steadicam operator and through the course of this podcast we're talking to operators and other people like today about about the art of visual storytelling and the operator's place in it. Today, I'm really excited to have an amazing cinematographer, formerly an incredible operator, John Toll. With us. John Toll was an operator on films such as Peggy, We Got Married, Scarface, The Falcon and The Snowman and Twilight Zone to name a few. John has had 24 award nominations and eighteen wins according to my my counting, including two Academy Awards for Legends of the Fall and Braveheart 2A SC Awards for Legends of the Fall and The Thin Red Line, and a SC and Camera Emmage Lifetime Achievement Awards. He's worked with directors such as Francis Ford Coppola, Ed Zwick, Terrence Malick, Mel Gibson, Cameron Crowe, the Wachowskis, Ang Lee and everybody else and has shot just about every genre out there. It's a real pleasure to have you here, John. Thank you so much and thanks for being here today. Speaker 2 Great to be here. Thank you. Speaker 1 So if if you ran into someone who wasn't in the film industry and you had to describe or explain what a camera operator is esoterically, specifically, however you want to answer that, what would you say it is? Speaker 2 Very simply, is the person understood who? Operates the camera. He's a guy who sits behind the camera, and that's how you can identify who the camera operator is. The job is quite a bit more complicated than that, but in terms of simple identification, he is the person on the set who's sitting at the camera looking through the eyepiece. Speaker 1 But as you said, it's a little more complicated than that, isn't it? As as I believe you probably recall and have seen. Speaker 2 Yeah, well, with the working relationship with how the camera operator works with everyone else on the set is a very complicated process and it's and I found it different depending on the personalities you're working with. So I think there's no so really and there's no simple answer to what does the cinema does, the camera, how does it function, how does that job category function that, what is the relationship with everyone on the set and blah blah blah. It's extremely complicated, depending on who. The other people happen to be that you're working with. Speaker 1 It's one of the reasons I ask you, so I'm still trying to figure it out myself, to be perfectly honest. Speaker 2 Well, and it's it changes depending on the personalities you're working with. Absolutely. And so it requires an incredible amount of talent, skill and flexibility, political flexibility in terms of how you interact with everyone else on the set. And I've never found any 2 situations to be identical in terms of what that. The nature of that collaboration and how it works out, and it depends on who the director of photography is, who the director is, and the approach of the individual camera operator. Speaker 1 It's a tricky sort of balanced, politically balanced and balancing situation, so you have to be a bit of a chameleon basically, psychologically, I guess. Speaker 2 So you have to be smart about how you approach the work. You know and you know what your objectives is. Speaker 1 But how you'll go about addressing that depends on the other personalities of the people you're working with. Sure. Has has camera operating intrinsically changed from back when you were categorized as a camera operator to now, do you think? Speaker 2 I think it mechanically it has, but I think in terms of the political dynamic, I don't believe it has changed. Speaker 1 And so since we've already mentioned it a couple times, I maybe dive right in. So the politics of it all, you know, when you're working with a cinematographer, there's obviously that dynamic and then you're also working as a camera operator, you're working for the director as well. And can you just talk about that May, I don't know if you've ever had experiences where you know the cinematographer and the director weren't seeing that I or or one, one or the other and the other wasn't sure or etcetera, etcetera. Speaker 2 Well, I was fortunate that when I worked as an operator once, I figured out. How to perform the job? I just I found that the working relationship between the operator and the director of photography and the director was completely different depending on who those personalities were, who the director of photography and the director was. So is a question of camera operator being able to assess that and being able to work inside that dynamic because I never found that the working relationship between the director. And the director of photography and the camera operator were ever the same. So you basically had to adjust depending on who those personalities were and the nature, the nature of the director and the director of photography relationship had as much to do with the job of the camera operators, anything. So that was my experience and I was fortunate that I was able to number one, that I was working with some really talented people, directors and directors of photography. And I was able to assess that dynamic relatively early on and in the process and realized that my job as a camera operator was completely dependent on the dynamic, the working, working relationship and the dynamic between the director and the director of photography and then the director of photography and the camera operator. And I was fortunate that I as a as a. Operator. I was able to work with some really great directors of photography and I never found that working relationship ever to be the same. So it required an incredible amount of flexibility and you just had to go with the flow and figure it out. Speaker 1 You know who who were some of your favorite directors of photography to work with as an operator? Speaker 2 Working backwards, Conrad All, Jordan. Toronto with Alan, Davio. Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. John Alonso and David Myers, amazing that's that's an incredible list of people and and you said John, John moved you up from John Alonso moved you up from camera assistant to camera operator on a show. Speaker 2 Yeah, I I became a camera operator. I was working as a camera assistant with John and. He got the opportunity to direct a film called FM and prior to him getting that job he had told me that as his camera system the next job he got he was going to promote me to camera operator. He didn't know what that job was. The next job happened to be he got a job directing and he and he hired a director of photography named David Myers the guy that who had who had worked with. When they both had shot document documented David had shot feature films but he was primarily a documentary cinematography. So he and John had told me prior to that said the next job I'm going to promote you to operate and I said that's cool that's that's okay. And then he just just by accident, happened. His next job was. Speaker 1 As a director and he was hired to director and I. Speaker 2 And I went to John, I said, okay you you aren't shooting this film. It's going to be a different DP. Don't worry about moving me up. You should do what's it's appropriate for yourself and and let David hire whoever he wants to hire his camera operator. And John said okay, well, we'll think about it. And that was. David who lived in San Francisco, was not around, so he was not part of that conversation. So and this is probably six weeks before this movie resources started. So David, David shows up and he's prepping the film and John said I know who the operator is and he told David the operator is going to be John Dole. And David didn't know he and I didn't know him and David assumed that. That I was an experienced operator and that I've been operating with John, but John didn't tell him that this would be my first job as an operator. So we start prepping and we're in the prep for about a week or so and I go to and there was no conversation about you were first time operator that was not part of the conversation and David's assuming that I've been around, you know I'm a guy you know I've been working with John and so it was it was kind of cool. Speaker 1 Did you assume that he had been told that? Speaker 2 Yeah, no, of course. I thought he knew he and he thought I was. Speaker 1 I've been working with John for years as an operator, so there's no stress. Speaker 2 So I finally figured it out and I go to Dave and I said by the way, if there's another person that you would prefer as operator and you don't want to work with a first time operator, then you should. The operator should be whoever you choose to be, you know as the. Speaker 1 And he's the DP. Speaker 2 David said, what are you talking about? And I said, well, I'm, you know, this is my first job as an operator. And John, John promised me that the next job before he got a job tracking, he promised me he was going to be hire me as the operator. And David said that's surprising, you know, So he says I'll think about it. So he did, and he talked to John and John said yeah, well we're going to move him up and I told him we're going to move him up and blah, blah blah. So David said Okay, that's cool. And David had his background was as a documentary camera. He had been shooting and operating documentaries for years and he had done some some features using operator. But in David's mind, we're all Big 11, big crew and it was kind of cool and okay if John felt comfortable with me as an operator then. It was fine with David then it's okay. You're the operator basically. And so that's how we started the project. But it was my first job as an operator and I as a as an A/C. I've been working with John for a couple years and taking guest shots, you know, and it was like and I started on a movie called Black Sunday and you know, which is a whole other story. But anyway, John felt comfortable with my skills as an operator because I had been even as the first A/C I had been operating at times. So. John was cool with it. David said that if John was cool, then he was cool. And so I became, I was the operator, I start, you know, and it was funny. And so we started in the first couple days of shooting, I discovered because I had never, I had operated and done a lot of operating on documentaries. But it discovered that on long takes, this is a traditional feature film, and John was into like complicated masters on long takes. And it went on for 3-4 minutes and I discovered after a minute or two I had trouble keeping I was looking through my right eye. I had trouble keeping my left eye shut. And so I discovered that after a couple of minutes on a on a take my left I couldn't keep my left eye shut and I might my left eye kept opening and I I had my dominant vision was through my left eye. And I even though I was looking through the camera with my right eye, all I could see was what my left eye was seeing. So I discovered this during takes. And you know, the first couple days of shooting, I just figured this is a problem. You know, it's like if I'm going to operate the camera, I got to be able to see through the camera during the entire take. And I discovered this the hard way, you know, why we're shooting. So after, you know, the first day of this, I went to John because, you know, I had the working relations with him. And she said. John, I meant. We got problems, you know, I was like, I can't, I can't do these long takes because I can't keep my left eye shut after a couple of minutes, you know. And he said that's no problem, just open your left eye until you you can relax, you know, relax the muscles in your left eye. Because my left eye kept opening. I couldn't, I couldn't keep it shut. So just just. Open your left eye for, you know, a few seconds and then you'll relax those muscles and you'll be able to see through the camera with your right eye. So I tried that and it worked, you know, so it was like, OK, cool. So then I I tried that, you know, when whenever necessary. And it turned out that it was, that was OK. I could see through my right eye. If I open the my left eye, relax those muscles and then shut it and you know, I could do takes that lasted. 3 or 4 minutes. Speaker 1 I'm guessing that is your first feature when you're going into it. That wasn't the problem you were concerned about immediately. Speaker 2 Well, I had, I had acquired have to go back a little bit, you know, because I had, I had worked on a lot of documentaries. I came into business working in a documentary film company and as a PA and sort of, and I hung out with the camera assistance and learn how to be a camera assistant. Speaker 1 You remember what year, what years that was? Speaker 2 Ballpark, it's the 1960s. Speaker 1 During the 1968 presidential campaign, which is 68, was pretty wild, amazing. So were you shooting with like Bollexes and CP16 and things like that or I? Speaker 2 Have to go back even for. Speaker 1 OK, go ahead. Speaker 2 So the first first job I got in the film business was working as a PA at a documentary film company, David Wilber's company, and threatened my sister's husband was a. Had been an AD and he got a job as a production supervisor. So and I was in College in Lai. Grew up in Cleveland. OH. I came up here and then I was in in. I went to school at Cal City LA and got a part job working, part time job working at David Welper's production company through Bob Anderson who was my sister's husband and I and I knew nothing about the film is like 0. So he hired me as a PA. And like, part time, I had always been interested in photography. As a kid, I had instrumented cameras. I never. I had no formal training as a photographer. All photography was just stuff I'd picked up by looking through cameras. Speaker 1 So you weren't in school for film, You were just. Speaker 2 In no, I was well I was thinking about going to law school. I was in that didn't that didn't seem like a very good idea. Was always interested in history of that. OK, I'll be historian whatever, you know, however you make money as an historian, that didn't work out. But I was still in school and got this job working as a PA part time at a documentary film company. And I think, oh, that's pretty cool. It's kind of in the film business, you know, I had always been interested in in photography and so David Wolfers was was a really great documentary filmmaker and he had a company. With an office building on Sunset Blvd. And so I was the PA who with no kind of, like formal responsibilities. They had purchased three cameras, A2, Eclair, NPR's, and in an areas. And it just sat in this sort of storage room next to the shipping department and nobody, nobody maintained it. There was no fulltime staff that didn't know anything about the cameras. And when whenever they had a job, they would. The camera systems would come in and say there's the cameras, We don't want to bring cameras. We bought these cameras here's and the camera systems would come in and prep the cameras. So because the cameras were sitting in the storeroom and I was interested in photography, not formally, I said okay, I'm going to check out the cameras and figure out how they work because I'd never handled this 16 millimeter camera. So I did this for a while and then they had a show that was starting. And camera systems came in to prep, and one of the camera systems was Otto Nemons. Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. Speaker 2 Auto used to work as a camera system. Speaker 1 I had no idea he. Speaker 2 Was first job in the business who was working as a camera system, freelance camera system in Los Angeles and auto came in. He kind of showed me how the cameras, how to set up the cameras and how they worked. And then there was a documentary in 1968, and Auto became who was hired as the camera system. And he said, you know, I could use a second. And they said, well, we can't afford a second. You know, he was like, and but we got this guy who's a PA we're already paying him nothing. And once you use him as your camera system and because he had checked me out on the cameras, he said, okay, I'll train him. So I I worked as a camera assistant. Ferraro Nimmons had a documentary about the Jeanclaude Keeley the Skier in in 1968. And we had two Eclair, NPR's in an area. Yes. And that's how I turn out to use 16 millimeter cameras through auto. That was cool. That was in that summer. And so I worked through the following. I was, I was still in school working part time. I was working part time at the at the documentary at Wolper after school. And so I acquired a little more experience that much. In the following year, David Wolper sold his company. The Metromedia and and this is at the beginning of the ABC movies of the week, you know it's like 1969 and they, they acquired it a contract to do a job for an ABC movie that we called Blackwater Gold which was going to it was about underwater treasure hunters. So they're going to shoot in the Bahamas. So because I was already employed in the company. He said, well, we take you as a PA on the job, you know, and there was there was an underwater unit and I'm with a cinematographer, a guy named Mike Dugan, who owned his own cameras. He said he needs an assistant, but we don't want to take an extra person to the Bahamas. So you go, you know, and they were still paying me as a as PA That's correct. He said you go and he needs somebody to help with his cameras. He owned his own cameras. He had Bell and House that he had converted into underwater cameras. So I went as the loader and the and there was no assistant. Mike did everything. He was, you know, he was like a one man. Speaker 1 Man, you must have been in heaven. You're going to the Bahamas? Speaker 2 And he said OK, we're going to the Bahamas. And these they the underwater unit who who did some preshoots and the because the first unit didn't start until, you know, July 30th, whatever, whatever the date was. And I went, Mike showed me how to load the bill and owls. And so I would sit in the boat, He'd take cameras, go shoot underwater, they bring up the rigs and I'd, you know, basically load the magazines. You know, I was, I was a loader. Speaker 1 You're 21 or 22 at this time or? Yeah, I was out of school. Speaker 2 Yeah, who's young guy. Speaker 1 It must have been a dream. Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, so I was, I was, I was on the crew, you know, it was camera system. But, and this was a this was an I, a job, you know, it was like but but I, of course, was not in the IA and nobody knew who I was written that I was even there. You. Know in the Bahamas, I was a PA who just happened to load magazines. Oh, I have to back up. I have to back up. Speaker 1 By the way, you're not worried getting out now that it affect your career that you? The union shown as a nonunion? Speaker 2 I'm kind of proud of it. I didn't get fired. Speaker 1 I just want to make sure we could say this. Speaker 2 It was an accomplishment. No, no, no, it didn't matter. You know, even even more hysterical when they get the, the job prepped cameras in the LA and there was the plan was to get the rent the cameras in LA, take them to the Bahamas and go from there. So, but at the time they had no Panvision was sort of in existence, but they didn't deal with Panvision because it was too expensive, you know. So they had a working relationship with Burns and Sawyer. So the week before the camera shipped to the Bahamas, the head of production goes to me and says hey, they're we're prepping the cameras at Burns and Sawyer. But the camera assistants who are going to work in the Bahamas are coming from Canada and we don't want to bring in camera system from Canada to prep the equipment. So you go to Brenda Sawyer and prep the I had never seen a 35 millimeter camera go to Brenda Sawyer and prep the cameras. I said I I I don't. Speaker 1 Know what to do. Speaker 2 Yeah. This is this is insane. You know, you should get a guy who knows what they're doing. I was like, no, no, it's OK. You go there, they'll show you what they do. So I go there. And the prep tech at Brenda Sawyer is Danny Clarema. So Otto had shown me, you know, basically what was on the shelf at at the Metro media. And I go and I meet Danny Claremont for the first time and I said, OK, Danny, how do you do? My name is John Tolling and prep the cameras, but I've never even seen a 35 millimeter camera. So I have no idea what I'm doing. And he said don't worry about it, I'll show you what to do. There's Danny, right. So the cameras that we were getting were it was an area 2C and a BNC rack over. Oh my gosh, this is before reflex cameras. I was really affront with Danny. I said I have absolutely no idea. I've never even seen these cameras, you know, So he says don't worry about it. And Bruno, sorry, at the time did not rent Bnc's all they had. They were an Aeroflex house. They were primarily a documentary. They rendered the documentary camera really low budget. So they were so Brenting and Danny had never, He himself had never worked on a BNC. He had. He had. He'd seen them but not but knew nothing about them. Speaker 1 This is awesome. Speaker 2 And so I go on, the cameras are going to ship on Friday right? I go on Monday and they had and I Danny checked me out on the area is in area 2C, he checked me out on the area and I was loading magazines, I was changing the lenses and you know, and I did this for a couple days and I kept asking about the BNC. He said that's coming from MGM and there's not a job and so we have to wait for it to come in and then etcetera, etcetera. You know, so the BNC wasn't accessible. So in the meantime, I just, I concentrated on the area 2C and I really had it down and I could load it. I could, you know, follow focus, I could do whatever he had to do. So finally the cameras had to ship on Friday afternoon. Thursday afternoon, the BNC was still not there. Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. Speaker 2 So I said, Danny, what's, you know, what's happening? And he says it's coming in the morning so that the camera shows up Friday morning. And then he had never worked. Speaker 1 On it. I was just saying neither of you know what to do with. Speaker 2 So Benny then he gets, we get all the cases of the truck, take him into the in the in the workspace. He opens up all the cases, takes everything out of the cases and spreads it out on the floor. And he's and he's looking for the, the manual, you know. And he says and he said what are you doing? He says I'm looking for the manual. I've never seen one of these before. So he gets the, he calls it MGM. They send the manual and then they're going hysterical. The guy's at MGM and he said these are fucking idiots, you know, it's like. Speaker 1 This is like The MGM had their own camera department. Speaker 2 Oh yeah, yeah. It was a full blown studio 1969. And so he gets there and then he's got everything spread out on the floor. He's got the manual and this is a rack over B&C, not a reflex, you know, and had the and had all the cams and you know, the Finder and the cams and you know, and if you, if you got the cams wrong, you know, basically, you know, you're not looking through the camera, you're looking through a Finder, Yeah. Speaker 1 And actually, just because some people who are listening to that may not know what that is, can you just explain the difference between a rock over and the. Speaker 2 The record of BNC cameras was while the camera was rolling, you are not actually looking through the lens, it was a Finder on the side of the camera. In order to compose the images correctly, the Finder had to be adjusted for the focal length of the lens that was on the camera. Speaker 1 Basically, for each lens, right? Speaker 2 Yeah, for each lens, but depending on the focusing distance, Oh my God, the the Finder would be adjusted by a. It was called a Cam. Had to have a proper Cam that corresponded to the focal length of the tagging lens. Speaker 1 And if you're shooting in the Bahamas, you probably wouldn't know for a week later that it wasn't wasn't framed correctly, right? Because it's got. Yeah. Speaker 2 No, I mean, it was certain you. Speaker 1 Have no idea. Speaker 2 You might never know. Speaker 1 You may never. Yeah. Unbelievable. Wow. Speaker 2 So because Denny was figuring this out, and he was, he was so brilliant that he could and I was just watching, you know, basically because the whole, the whole concept of the Cam and the camera and the Finder was like a brand new concept, you know, because I'd never seen and never actually seen a BNC. Speaker 1 And you're figuring this out by looking. Speaker 2 And I was a prep tech, you know. Oh. Speaker 1 My gosh. Speaker 2 And we were shipping him to the Bahamas and by the time anybody and anybody had discovered if there was an issue it would be fucking disastrous. You know so and so and and we he had but then he had to figure this out on the day the camera shipped to the bombing. So and I'm just watching because I, you know, I don't have a clue I can. I can I had very I had just seen an area to see for the first time that week. So, and I had that figured out, I could put the lenses on the area to see and you look through the Finder, you can actually see the lenses seeing you know. Pretty, pretty straightforward, yeah. At the end of the day then he said okay ready to go. I said, are you cool? You know, he says, yeah, yeah, no problem. Don't, don't worry about it. You know, like of course he wasn't going to the Bahamas so but he was so responsible that he he never would have shipped the camera if he didn't feel confident about it. But he was such a great technician that he he felt, that's great. We were ready to go. That's amazing. So we go to the Bahamas. They ship the camera to the Bahamas, and I get there and I I wind up as the A/C on the underwater unit with Mike Duggan's home. Basically his homemade cameras, they were Balanel movements, but he had somehow converted. And then he used it as a reflex camera. So we get to the Bahamas, and the director of photography is a guy named Andy Laszlo, who's in New York, NY, director of a Target. Really nice guy. So because the cameras got there, the 35 millimeter cameras got there early. They were sitting on a truck in the parking lot and I got there ahead of the camera assistance because the camera assistance were waiting for the first unit. So I get there and and they introduced me to Andy as the camera system. Speaker 1 You're actually the PA just to be reminder. Speaker 2 I mean, I could. I barely knew it by the own name. So Andy, Andy, really nice guy. Andy was a great guy, he says. I'd like to see the 35 millimeter camera package sitting on a in a truck in the parking lot. I said okay, let's go, you know, And so we go and he says where are the lenses? And I and I knew which lens I knew which case was the lens case. I said no. I pulled it off and said here and I opened it up and the prime lenses were cook lenses, which were kind of, at the time, really cool. You know, it's like, it's like if you had cook lenses, you're really cool because they were English. Speaker 1 Oh, I got you. Speaker 2 And they weren't, you know, they weren't Baltar and American. And he look at it, he is, oh, cook lens is very good, very good, you know, and it's like, OK, so far so good. And he picks up like the 25 million or 25 millimeter cook lens and he's just OK, really cool. And I'm thinking, what is he? What if he asked me to put it on the camera? I'm really, I'm fucked, you know, basically. And so he said, but he was so thrilled the way a cook lenses, all he needed to do was see it and hold it. And it's like, and he's a very good, very good. OK, that's that's cool. I don't need to see. I don't need to see anything else. And I think, OK, you're sure you know it's done. So the film crew, the 35 millimeter, you know, the main unit film crew was partly American and partly Canadian. And the first they see was a guy named David Dalzell who from LA and part of the first unit crew were Canadians. So it was it was a funny you got to deal. I have no idea what what the what the economics of the situation were but part of the crew was Canadian. Part of it was a nearly based. Speaker 1 Someone saving money for some reason, probably. Speaker 2 So the second the second they see was Canadian. And so the first unit crew, the Americans, got their first the day later the the Canadian showed up and the and the Canadian second A/C that they had hired changed his mind at the last second and decided he just didn't get on a plane. He didn't tell anybody, he just didn't get on the plane. So they the crew shows up and they're all there except for the second A/C. They have no second A/C and there is. They're only about 3 days out of shooting, he says. We have no second A/C. And so the production manager says, well, we had this guy who was on the second unit. It was was an assistant, so he can be your second. So David says okay, that's cool. So I meet David and I said, David, I've never even seen a B&C. I'm really not an assistant. I just worked, you know, around on the documentaries. He said don't worry, I'll show you what to do, you know. So he shows me how to load the Mitchell magazines. You know I never seen a 35 plus he came so I was loading the Mitchell 35 millimeter. Mitchell mag is in the Airy mags and I kind of had that down. We we set up a dark room we made in David's hotels bathroom was was my dark room, you know and and I would be on a changing bag if I had to do. I tried to avoid changing while we were on locations. You know we didn't shoot that much so and I had 66000 mags so I never really got in a changing bag and and change anything. So we'd wait till we get back and I'd spend a couple hours you know like very carefully unloading the 1000 foot loads and and the area, the area magazines if we if we use them. And so I was basically, that was my training. Speaker 1 That's amazing. Speaker 2 And so I was the A/C on this TV movie of the week. Speaker 1 And this was, what, four weeks? Six weeks or something like that, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, 5-6. You know, it was an ABC movie. Speaker 1 That's fantastic. What a great story. Speaker 2 So I was the so I became an assistant camera. So I was still in college at the time. I was going to college and this is like a summer job. So we get back and you know, there were no mishaps. And I didn't fuck up. I didn't fog any film and we get back and I'm back in school and I'm working part time. I'm over and Mike Dugan shows up one day. He says, have you applied to the union? I said what are you talking about? And he says, well, you work 30 days at a union jobs, you're. Eligible, you can get in the union. Is it really? He says, yeah, I said, OK, what do you do? He says. Will you go to the office and tell them you know you want to apply? And this is when it was almost impossible to get in the. Speaker 1 That's what I was going to say. Speaker 2 I didn't think it was before. Before all the Alan, Davie and Coley Caleb and all these guys sued the unions and and and opened it up for everybody. So I go to the union I said I want I want to sign up How do I get in the union is it no, no you have to you have to go through contract services and what's what is that. So I just so I figured and then they tell me what I do so I played a contract services and I'm still in college. About 3 months later I get an an appointment to go interview and I interviewed in front of all these studio reps Really. Yeah. Dick Barlow from was was head of Pair in mind camera department. There was a guy named Bill Russell who was head of the Universal Camera department. Was all the camera department and they're interviewing me, you know and. Speaker 1 It's Oh my gosh. Speaker 2 So they said, well put your background, blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, I worked on this TV movie, you know, and I worked at David Welber's company camera system, you know, so I got in the union, you know, you know, with absolutely no experience as I get in as a as a camera system. And this is when the group system was still in existence. So unless you were a Group One, you never worked. You know, it's like the group twos barely worked in the viewer. Group three, you just sort of like you were not in the field businesses until you get accumulated enough with seniority to become a Group 2 and then a Group 1. So I got out of college and because I was theoretically a camera assistant, I was hired to work on a nonunion job. Nonunion, really low budget feature for Crown International. So I acquired I because I knew by this time I knew 35 millimeter Airflex cameras from the job in the. So I got this job and we did a feature film. I was the first A/C. I hired a guy named Chuck Minsky, who was who was my second, because his dad, who was an executive at Pacific Theaters. And through the Chuck got a good job working on a movie. And he had worked on one film as a location scout. And he knew he knew less than I did. Oh my gosh. So I kind of like, I showed Chuck the ropes, you know? I kind of like, I taught him everything I knew about cameras, which was, you know, like, yeah. Right, so I was the first they see. Chuck was the 2nd and we did this low budget Crown Crown Pictures movie. We got through that you know a couple of weeks in the there were no mishaps you know we we didn't fog any film. We you know we got we got the film through the camera. I was, I was the first they see and I had watched David and you know, so I knew, you know, you get the tape measure out and you know and you figure it out because the nature of that particular picture, it was nobody knew what they were doing on the film. You know, it was like low budget filmmaking in the early 70s. Speaker 1 So nobody knew that. You didn't know what you were doing? Speaker 2 No, it didn't matter. I was like, because you, you, you could breathe and you could, you know, you could carry the cameras, and that's all you need to do, you know? So. So Chuck and I kind of faked our way through it. About halfway through the movie, the director and the DP were not getting along, you know, And so I show up for her work one day and I and the Dp's name was Barry. I said. And Barry wasn't around. I said, where's Barry? Barry's not coming to work today. You know he got fired and so, so you're the DP. Speaker 1 Oh my God. And just to be just to go back. So this is not your second. Speaker 2 There's basically a second film. I remember 16 millimeter documentaries. In the meantime, I've been doing a lot of documentary work. You know, I've been sort of like sneaking away and playing with the the players looking through it figurative, the zoom lens and you know composition. I had a good iPhone composition because I've always been interested in photography so I could I could come comeose images and and not get sent the jail over it. So I wind up as a DP on this this low budget movie and we got through it. You know it was like you know because I I had learned how to use a light meter you know Spectra you know you pointed this way you pointed that way and then we more or less got got through it. So with 0 experience I'd become a camera resistant, then a camera operator DP on a on a non union low budget film even though he's in the union. Gradually I was able to work on as a as a camera assistant on union pictures because I was in the union and it's sort of and I met through David. I got recommended for to do a television show called The Rookies because David's father Archie was the director of photography and his brother Dennis was the camera operator on this show. On the Rookies, they had just promoted their second A/C to 1st A/C because the first A/C got a got a better job. So they were looking for a second. And by this time I had been around long enough that I could load magazines without fogging film and and I can fill out camera reports. And David said I got a guy for you, you know, it's like he's he's looking for a job and he'd be great, you know. So they hired me as a second A/C on the rookies, which I was was really my first full blown union job, even though I was still low, low seniority I guess it was, it was sort of like TV season and everybody was working. So I was. So I got a job working on a union job as a second A/C which was you know. It's amazing, yeah. And because I had all this vast experience, you know, and I actually worked as a DPI, kind of like knew what Archie was doing. Archie was like this great guy had been around. He started working in the film industry in the 1930s, worked on these Errol Flynn movies and he had great stories. And so as a second on a TV show at that time, it was absolutely you did did nothing. We, I worked at 20th Century Fox. We had a loading room, so I didn't load magazines. All I did was sort of hit the slate and change lenses. But because Archie didn't, he knew that you had to work really fast. We just put the 12:50 zoom on the camera on the BNC in the morning and never took it off. You know, if you had to use a prime lens, that was like a big deal, you know, So as this, for a second, there was absolutely nothing to do. You know, it was like. Some reports and yeah, you said when 1000 foot in Mitchell Mags, it's in the loading room in Fox they would load, you know, you get it back you, you get to slate and you feel like camera reports. You never change lenses. There's nothing to do so and Archie was old, was a great TP, very traditional. He used to sit in his director's chair all day long. You know he put the, he put the chair right behind the camera and he he never moved. So I would hit this late and I kind of hanging out with Archie, you know, and he would start telling me war stories about work and you know, and they're all friend in the 30s and 40s. And it was, it was great And he would show me how to use the Spectra and you know, it was like all the tricks. So, and I did the show for a whole season and by that time I had accumulated enough experience that I I could work as a C on my own. I used to practice. I don't know, there's the other thing. During lunch we'd always leave the camera sitting on the on the gear head on the Dolly and I come back from lunch, you know and we'd be have 15 or 20 minutes of spare. So I'd sit behind the gear head and learned how to use, learned how to use a rose and and how to operate and and we had the 10/1 zoom lens would always stay on the camera never take it off. And so I can all along lens and use the gear head and follow people around. The stage is there on there and that's how I learned to operate basically. Speaker 1 Was that an old warrel head or what? Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, it was a big heavy massive because you know and it was a BNC pellicle B&C because you know the equipment was so heavy you just left it on a bell. If you didn't have to take it off, you know, you just left it there. So that was that was basically how I my my experience in Hollywood filmmaking was sitting you know during lunch practicing using the wheels on a on a B&C pellicle and that's crazy. I I accumulated enough experiences in a C that I could actually go out and get other jobs and there's a there's a DP name a guy named Jules Brenner is this is this you think there's useful I'm. Speaker 1 Fascinated by this. If you're okay with it, I'm totally fascinated. Speaker 2 So I started freelancing as an A/C because I acquired enough experience in between whoopers and the Blackwater Gold. And then the rookies I had, I could basically get through a day's work without fucking up, you know? And I started getting calls to do documentaries as an AC1 of the people I work with was a director of a talking main named Jules and Printer. And Jules got a job ringing a Paramount on a on a TV movie to shoot a TV movie. So you hired me as the first A/C and I met Dick Barlow. Dick Barlow, Dick. Barlow's name, Dick Barlow, was at the time he was head of the camera camera department in Paramount and he then he eventually moved to Warner Brothers and he was around for a long time. Great guy. So I was recommended to do this TV movie and met Dick Barlow and the TV movie was like 3 weeks. But I got through it successfully without any major mishaps and I got along with Dick really well. He's ahead of the camera department and he offered me to take over some telephone, a couple of TV shows that were working, a pair of mine, I said, and by this time I've been around long enough and I figured I didn't really want to get involved in TVI was going to be a feature guy, you know, I was going to be a feature assistant. I didn't want any of that TV stuff, you know, So I said and I turned it down and I said, Dick, you know, I'm, I'm kind of doing documentaries and and I'd prefer to like being freelancer and not get locked into a TV show. Yeah. And I've done a TV show, so I kinda knew what it was. You just end up there and that'll pay your career. Yeah, you got a whole lot, yeah, yeah. And so he said Okay, Well, if something comes up, we will. I'll keep you in mind. So a month later I get a call from him. He said we're going to do a feature and they're looking for a first they see, are you interested? I said, yeah, this is cool, you know, Yeah, this is big time, you know, it was like feature Filmberg at Paramount. And then the cinematographer was Dick Klein, who was a really, you know, well known, deep, really very talented guy. His reputation with his cruise wasn't the best, and the director was a guy named Michael Winter. OK, who was really an asshole? This guy was like, bad news. Yeah, so that's. Speaker 1 Not a good. That's not a good. Speaker 2 That's the director Dick Klein, who his reputation was kind of tough on his screens, was the TP. But I didn't know any of this. You know, all I knew was it was like a feature film was, yeah, this is cool. And, you know, I was like big time. So I go to Panda Vision and then show prep to Panda Vision. I go to Panvision to start prepping. And it was all these really well known talented first ACS out there prepping and who I didn't know any of them because I was not. I was not in the, you know, in in that circle. And so I I got to meet these guys and Bob Marta was one of them. You know, he was like fantastic first first class, 1st easy. He says well hi, how you doing? Blah, blah blah, what are you doing? And I said, I'm doing this feature at Paramount and he said, oh cool. He said who's the director of photography? He said Dick Klein. And he goes, no, who's the who's the director? Michael Winner. OK, you know, And it's like all of a sudden, like he knows this poor guy, he's he's dead, you know, so. And I didn't know any of this. So I prepped the cameras, you know, it was like it was the Penetrins camera had just come out. It was a brand new camera. So we had a PSR and a Pada flex and Bobby Odessa was the B camera second he recommended me. So we start the movie and it was it was kind of cool. We discovered the OR. I discovered the Michael Winner is like not a very pleasant guy. You know he hates he hated camera operator. The first camera operator we had on the show was Mike John Flynn. John Flynn Yeah. Nice guy. You know great guy and but Michael Winner didn't like the way he looked you know it's like and and he fired him after a week so not no follow John. John was doing a great job, I'm sure like a winner. Just didn't, didn't like John. You know, John's kind of a rough and a guy, deep voice, you know, didn't like, you know, he was too manly, you know. And we went through about four or five operators and I I met and so I'm this job at John. Tommy Lockridge, Bill Johnson, these guys are all very experienced talent operators. It's my first feature and I'm faking my way through it and I'm meeting these guys and it was all of a sudden these guys knew what they're doing and they're really professional, you know, members of the camera crew. So it was a great exposure for me. I acquired a huge amount of information and actually learned how to be a member of a camera crew. And for some reason I got along with Michael Winter Okay and he didn't fire me because Michael Winter didn't fire me. I got along with Dickline. Great and he didn't fire me. So. And in the process, the fact that I was actually able to finish the job with these guys, man, quite a bit to Dick Barlow who is head of the Panama Camera. So he said, well, I've got some other work coming up and if you're interested, you know, let me know. And. But it was all television work and I and I knew that that wasn't what I didn't want to get involved in that kind of work because in the meantime I was starting to get other other jobs is is just in freelancing. So I said I think I'd rather stay freelance and see what happens, which is what I did. And eventually I got a call to do the camera on this movie that John Alonso as you like Sunday. Yeah, John, Frank and I were was directing. Oh, John Frankenheimer and every units A/B cameras. And they didn't have a B camera assistant. So Tick called me to do that. And so I did that and I met John and Ray Villalobos was the camera system. Wow. Sure. That was how I kind of like broke into features. Yeah. In terms of my experience. And his assistant cameraman. So I stay with John and John eventually moved me up the operator and that's when I started operating with John and stayed there for a couple years and started to meet other people and eventually sure there's an operator with other DPS. Speaker 1 Yeah, wow. That's an amazing story. That was fascinating. Do you remember when when you made the jump? I mean, granted, sounds like John, you know, you had a friend there as as well as the director and he was kind of looking out for you. Do you remember what was that was? Was jumping on as the operator suddenly like, what was the hardest part of making that transition? Speaker 2 Was it because it sounds like I worked out on the wheels and, well, I mean being able to see through the camera because I couldn't, because I couldn't keep my my right eye open long enough? You know, that was one challenge, you know, but but the what? What really made it work was the fact that I was working with a director of photography who I had experience with as an assistant, Right. And Black Sunday, which was a movie about a Super Bowl game. Yeah, Remember, this was Robert. It was on TV recently. Just watched it again. Speaker 1 With a blimp. Is there a blimp? Speaker 2 Yeah, there was very complicated terrorists. They were. Bruce Dern was an ex Navy pilot during the Vietnam War who had gotten, you know, had some emotional problems. OK, for some reason he got involved with Arab terrorists and there was a plot to load the Goodyear blimp with darts and blow it up over the Super Bowl game that happened in in Miami in Super Bowl 10, which actually was was a real game. And so that was the the plot of this. Photographically, what needed to happen was to basically photograph, make, create background footage during a real Super Bowl game, which happened to be Super Bowl 10. And by this time I had, because of my experience with the Paramount with with Dick Barlow. Dick recommended me to John to be the B camera assistant on this on the job. Ray Villalobos was the first camera A/C who I had also met at Paramount. Chris Schwiebert was the camera operator. And I became the B camera second or B camera first because the whole plot is based on having the Goodyear blip loaded with poison darts blow up during the game. We shot during the real Super Bowl game, Super Bowl 10 in Miami and we had something like 8 camera crews, you know, and this is all and vision anamorphic lenses, you know it's a big deal. This is the first thing and we shot in the schedule. Speaker 1 You know, what was the Super Bowl you mean? Speaker 2 Yeah, it was the actual Super Bowl 10 game. They happened. To wrap around foot at the Orange Bowl in Miami, yeah, yeah. And we went and there were like 8 camera crews and it was just on TV recently and I just watched I. Speaker 1 Believe it was on TV. That's amazing that. Yeah, I just hold up. Speaker 2 Well, everything's everything's on TV. Speaker 1 Yeah, because no, that's true. A good point. Speaker 2 Yeah, So and it's been out more than once in the last few. Speaker 1 Just so I understand. Speaker 2 So the idea was they're poisoned darts in, well, I don't know if they're poisoned, but the idea was because they're Arab terrorists and Bruce Turner gone crazy in Vietnam as a pilot and I think you've been captured, whatever, he and he fell in love with one of the Arab terrorists. And so and that's how they had kind of recruited him. And as the pilot of the Goodyear Blimp, they knew that if they loaded the Goodyear blimp with darts, I don't know if they were in poison. They were just darts and blew it up. And then they flew into the stadium during the game and blew it up. They can kill thousands of people. Speaker 1 It's a very convoluted idea. Speaker 2 So but in order to do this we had to shoot during the game during the actual Super Bowl game and and John, Frank and her because they never did anything small. We had to have 10 camera crews right and it was all anamorphic. So I I was was hired. I was introduced to John, John, John's like OK, you be the B camera A/C and Ray and I prepped it all to span division. We had 10 cameras and we took to Miami and we prepped it in 10 crews. So John who used to love to operate and because of the nature of the work it was all sort of and he had been a documentary cameraman in his previous life so he needed to be close to John. Frank and I were. So John operated the A camera. I was the B camera assistant with a camera operator named Chris Schwebert who was a camera. We had two cameras had had a Mark two and an area area 2C and we set up on top of a fight on truck that was parked just outside the end zone in the Orange Bowl and we were basically photographing plays, you know, because you know we need the footage. So the in the second-half it was really, I was really getting bored, you know, it's like because we were so the Mark Two is sending up on top of the truck with us. And so I asked Chris if he minded if I set, but it set up the mark two and just have it ready in case something else would happen, you know like because it's a high speed camera. So it was the Dallas Cowboys and Pittsburgh zoos and they Dallas had that ball and they progressed down towards our end of the field, you know. And because we had this end camera set up, I asked Chris, I said do you mind if I roll on some of these plays you know, and we had a 5500 zoom on the camera. So I got on Mark 2 and 5500 zoom and I zoomed in all the way on Roger Starbuck. He was. He was the he was the he was the quarterback. So I left out a good part because of all this documentary work that I had done. Because I would, because I was had no seniority in the union. I could not, I could never work on a union job. You know I could. I never had enough seniority to do it because of my relationship with Danny Claremont. Danny would be recommend me to people who came into Burns and Sawyer. And one of the guys who came into Burns and Sawyer was a guy named Saul Layton from New York who had contracts to shoot recruiting films from the military. And so I would go out as an as an A/C on these military and these military recruiting jobs and we went to like Fort Bending Georgia and places like that. And in Fort Bending Georgia was a was a U.S. Army Ranger training facility and one of the training exercises they had was rappelling down a tower and they had like a tower. They built a tower that was like 50 feet tall. And these guys who were in Ranger School would go up and repel down the 50 foot tower. And the the working relationship that I had with Saul Layton was Saul was work as a director director, DP because there was no budget for anybody else. And I was the A/C. And so we go on the jobs. And Saul was not a very athletic guy and he was very wary about getting into any hazardous situations. So if there was anything that he felt uncomfortable about, he would give me the opportunity to be the camera operator, the opportunity. And because I was kind of like, yeah, I was enthusiastic and I, you know, wonder as much experience as possible. Absolutely. So then can you go up the 50 foot tower and give me a shot of those guys, just get out over the edge and just give me a shot of those guys going down? Speaker 1 And of course this is with no headsets or anything. So you just went up there and did it. Speaker 2 Yeah. And went with with the grip, you know, and it's like and he'd hang on to my belt and you know, he'd do all that stuff, you know, And I was young and stupid and said yeah, it's cool. There's really great experience we do that. And the following job he had, we went to Army Paratroop School and he said, you know, we need a shot of them going out the door, you know, So would you mind getting up there? They used to fly C130. Speaker 1 Oh, and the plane. You're jumping out of the plane, you mean? Speaker 2 Yeah, get up next to the door and get the guys going out, you know get a close up of their these, these are guys doing their first jump and get a close up of the guys going out. You know, this. All the emotion on their face says, yeah, yeah, cool, OK, And we had and if you got into the plane, you had to wear a parachute. OK, just in case being a individual guy, I knew that a really cool shot would be to get close up of these guys just before they jump, you know, on their first job, these guys in. The fears in the face or whatever, yeah, or whatever it was. So in order to do that, you had to get up next to the door, right? Which is course is open. Almost outside the door, yeah. And but I had I had Clarence Tindo who was a grip and I said OK just hold on my belt you know and make sure don't let me fall out and and I got some really great stuff. But in if you've never been in that situation, you learn that in paratrooper school when they jump, there's a flight of three or four planes. And if you're unless you're in the very first plane, the turbulence from the other planes creates, you know, they create, they creates a lot of turbulence. So we were like in the fourth plane and the plane was bouncing, bounce, but you know it's incredible turbulence. So it's not a smooth flight. So clearance is basically holding on to me, holding on, holding on to my belt, holding on to something as I had the plane to keep himself on the plane. And I'm excited about, OK, I'm getting these great close-ups, these guys just before they jump. And then. And one guy jumps and then it becomes a close up of another guy. And yeah, so you get all these incredible expressions about these guys about the jump for the first time. Yeah. You know, so I accumulated a huge amount of experience as an operator where I barely knew what I was doing as an assistant cameraman, you know, And it was because we were doing these sort of real life documentaries. So the black Sunday story that I kind of knew how to handle the camera because of all this military act, it's back to black Sunday. Pittsburgh Steelers are like on the 20 yard line and we're sitting on the roof of a five ton truck that's parked in the end zone, right? And so I set up the 50 to 500 anamorphic zoom, zoom in all the way on Roger Staubach. He gets the ball and he fades back and I knew he's going to pass and it was so obvious he's going to he's looking for his receiver. I said fuck if he throws the ball, never going to hold the ball in frame on a 500 millimeter lens. So he rears back. He gets ready to fire and I got my hand on the zoom and as soon as he throws, I zoom out and tip down and I can barely see through the camera. And when I open, when I open my eye, there's a receiver standing in the end zone holding the ball right. So. So I photographed this touchdown during the Super Bowl and prior to the game, John, Frank and I were the director and said okay guys, he says I'm really, you know, he's talking to all the operators. He says, I really want some good stuff. So, you know, don't roll on anything unless it's going to be a completed pass or a touchdown, you know, and you know, and everybody's looking anywhere, how the fuck do we go? It's going to be a completed pass. So I photographed a completed pass and a touchdown one shot. But I was and I was the first day seat, you know, he was like, so we're watching dailies and then like 3 days later the shot comes up and it's like a completed pass and a touchdown. And it was the B camera when Chris was the operator and Frank and I already said Chris, great, great shot, you know, it's fantastic. Chris says I don't think I did that. I think, and he did it, you know, so. From that point on, I was like potential, a potential operator in John's mind and John Frank, and I was like John Frank and I were actually came to me, he says. You know, that was great fucking work, you know, it's like next job I get you're the operator, you know? So of course, I never saw John, Frank and I again, yeah. Speaker 1 So can you tell me about working on Peggy Sue got married with Francis Ford Coppola. Speaker 2 I met Jordan working on a commercial. Jordan Kroner was Jordan Kroner and I didn't know Jordan and I have to tell this story because it's it's just. It's great. So when I first I working as the first A/C, I was working commercials and TV movies and whatever came along and I met a director, Cameron and a guy named Melvin Sokolsky who had been a very well known fashion photographer in New York and he started shooting commercials. So I got along really well with Melvin because I was interested in photography and he was a photographer and he had his own unique way of work and you know and Melvin had two airy 2C's that he that he he owned and we just considered to kept him handy and he would operate and he'll and and I kind of like I would follow focus and I never had I would never pull out of tape and I would just I was just good you know and then somehow I managed to stay in focus. So Melvin always thought that I was. I knew my way around, you know, once I became operated, once I started operating, I stopped being Melvin's A/C and his son Bing became the first. Melvin got a job doing a Doctor Pepper commercial, and because he was a commercial director, there was a Fred Astaire movie, something about the wedding. I forget where people danced on the ceiling. They had a revolving. Royal wedding, Yeah, Royal wedding. And people dance. They had a revolving. Room and people could dance on the ceiling. So the concept for this Doctor Pepper commercial is the same same concept. It was involved. It was very complicated. They had to build a set inside a drum That would revolve, you know, because the whole set wouldn't revolve and people, people could dance up the wall and dance on the ceiling. So Melvin got this job and he knew Jordan Kroner with from other jobs. And you know, I mean you respected Jordan, You know, Jordan was incredible DP. So Milne hired Jordan and he hired me because he knew me as a camera operator to be the operator and I didn't know what I was getting into until the first day of shooting, you know, And Jordan had a regular operator, but he wasn't available. So Jordan said, yeah, fine, we'll get this other guy. So he showed up and in order to photograph the people dancing across the ceiling, they had to build a rig where the whole, the camera rig and the the room revolved around at the same time. Yeah. So it's a very complicated rig with a sort of an extension and the extension was built off the revolving room. So the camera which was on a Dolly, there was a Dolly too. So the camera had to Dolly in during this during the. Shot Yeah, So Melvin had sort of designed this and got it, got somebody to build it. We had a rig where the camera was mounted on it and sort of a Dolly that was a design on rails and it was could operate. I don't even know what the technology was. You know it would go, it would Dolly in and out as the room was revolved. Speaker 1 Upside down and everything, yeah. Speaker 2 So basically what it what it meant was that you had to operate and do a move to tilt and pan while you were upside down. Speaker 1 You were upside down. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Bing was Melvin's son. The director's son who became the first A/C when I started operating. Speaker 1 Oh, OK. So he moved out. Speaker 2 Yeah. So Ming and I are seated down this valley that rotates 180 degree or 360 degrees during the shot. Speaker 1 Are you strapped on then? Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Really. Strapped in, unable to. All I can do is sort of bend at the waist and barely keep my eye on the eyepiece. And because the shot was so complicated, Kelvin worked as the he used to light his own sets and I and I sort of worked as his assistant, you know sort of assistant DP slash first A/C. But he hired Jordan Krono with to like to set. The shot was so complicated. So I met Jordan on this shot and because the shot was so complicated, he Jordan felt I was competent as an operator. So after that I started working with Jordan on deep on commercials and that did two feature films with him. And when was Peggy Sue Got Married? And Francis Cope, who was the Tractor and which worked out great, you know. And so that was sort of my introduction to feature filmmaking, you know, through Jordan. Speaker 1 Wow. Speaker 2 And Francis Ford Coppola, that's that's, yeah, introduction. And so based on that, I started getting other calls to do other work as an operator. Some of the Alan. Davio. Oh, I'm an Alan. I mean, you sure this it's good. I mean, I mean boring the shit out. I. Speaker 1 Mean You're not boring this I I love this. But if you're if you're happy talking about it, I think it's fascinating. Speaker 2 No, it's good because I mean it's it's it's actually kind of interesting because. These are fascinating stories to me because I think a lot of people because I became a really competent operator. Yeah, based on working with really comp other competent people. Speaker 1 Absolutely. Speaker 2 Yeah. John Alonzo was one, and and then Allen and and other people. Speaker 1 What was working with Coppola like? Speaker 2 Well, it was good. I mean, it was great because I'm not sure how Jordan got that job. You know, based on the revolving room commercial. I started working with Jordan on commercials and then he was hired to do a film called Pucker Bonsai and the director really loved Jordan. The producer was David Beagleman, not a nice guy, and he was very heavy-handed with the director. Jordan got fired as a way to control the director. You. Speaker 1 Know. Speaker 2 Yeah, because because George, when Jordan was working for the director and he. Didn't like that it just as a divisive technique. It's a crowded Beagleman fired Jordan. And of course his and I was his operator and of course we all went and Bing was assistant and we all left, you know, which was probably one of the best things that ever happened. And but I was working with Jordan on commercials because he was directing commercials and also other features that he got. So. And when he got fired on Buckaroo Banzai, he got hired to shoot Nicky Sue, got married. Francis and I was by this time and I had accumulated quite a bit of experience as an operator. So I kind of knew what I was doing as an operator and got along with Francis really well. And Peggy Sue, the actors were Kathleen Turner and Nick Cage. You know, and I thought Nick Cage was hysterically funny, you know, in that in that one of these sequences in the film was Peggy Sue as a teenager and her girlfriend's in her bedroom. And we were sharing on location in Santa Rosa and Jordan New is brilliant cinematographer. It chosen this one particular house in this room at the house based on the position of the sun in the afternoon because he wanted sunlight coming through the windows and he couldn't afford to you know for condors and and he so he said okay, we're going to shoot available light during the 90 minutes when there's actually sun coming through the windows. And so because Francis likes to take his time, the actors like today, you know, we were in danger of losing the the sun and if the light didn't come through the windows then there was no shot, you know, basically. So Turin says Okay. Just take the camera and get in the room. And nobody, no rehearsal. Then just they're going to improvise, just improvise a shot and light's going to be beautiful. Just, you know, just point the camera in the right direction, which was, which was what we did. So and it all worked out, worked out great, you know, And after that had a good working relationship with Francis. Few years later, I'm ready to move up to DP and I start shooting commercials. One of the directors that I started working with was Carol Ballard. It would was a feature of Black Stallion, you know, never quite well, you know, really well known films, visually interesting films. And so I started working with him as a DV on commercials and we did a commercial in New England on the way back. I get on the plane and Carol and I happen to be on the same same flight and so we sit together on the flight and he was getting ready to prepare a movie about America's Got yacht yacht racing and he was going to direct. And at this point I had, I'd only shot commercials as a as a DP And Charles started telling me about this film that he was going to direct about America's Got yacht racing shooting on 12 meter yachts you know and how cool it was going to be you know and I and he implied that he had he was going to go to New Zealand. He implied he already had a director of photography lined up. And I thought so that's cool because that's going to be a bitch, you know, because my experience on boats had not been particularly great. Yeah, you know, in terms of sea sickness and this can be fucking hard, you know, it's like whoever is going to shoot that is going to be really got their work done out. So there's a flight from Boston to LA and for five hours and Frances or Carol's telling me all about his plans for the shoot. And I'm thinking, yeah, that's going to be great knowing that there's no fucking way that I wouldn't be able to shoot it because I, because of my experience on boats, had been not pleasant. So and I kept telling Carol, yeah, that's that sounds great, man. You know, really good. So two months later I get a call on New Year's Eve from Tom Letty the producer and say hey, Carol's going to shoot this movie in Australia and he he was wondering if you I like to get involved you know. And I without thinking I said Carol yeah great that's that's cool you know. And I hung up and I knowing that wait a minute that's wind it's like 12 meter yachts and you can sail boat racing and I don't I don't do well on So I figured out fucking you know give it a go and see what happens. And Carol's, Carol's a great guy, incredible director and really good. See the dog, you know. So I signed up. I said okay, we're going to do it. And what about sea sickness? And I said, well, you know, we'll figure out if I get sick, then they'll fire me and get somebody else. And so we go to Australia, the West Coast of Australia, you know, which is 3000 miles from Sydney. And the cameras we're using, Carol owned Eclair CM3 cameras. He had, he owned three of them and because of his experience he had had when he first became a filmmaker, he used to shoot documentaries himself. He used to go out as a one by one person crew with his own cameras and shoot these documentaries for the US government. So he was very experienced in withhographer, you know, and because he loved the CM3 cameras. Speaker 1 I don't remember them, no. Speaker 2 Well, nobody else does, because then there's good reason, because they're really, you know, they're they're theoretically the 1st 35 millimeter handout. Speaker 1 Camera. Speaker 2 But they weren't really handsome, you know, because they don't fit on your shoulder and they kind of like you have to hold them. And you know, the only person I ever met who liked them is Caleb and Carol, you know, And Caleb used to work for Carol, you know, so that's where he was introduced to. So Carol says we're going to use the CM threes, you know, it's going to be fine. So we get, we get there and we start doing tests. And the CM3 is not, I mean, I've done a lot of hand out work. The CM3 is not conducive to really hand out, you know, The only thing is it's light enough you can actually hold it, you know, and that's that's the only reason the handout camera didn't fit on your shoulder. You know, it's like you try to be awkward. So we get out and we started doing some tests. We we would, we would always have to wear lightbelts. And when we're around the boats, because the 12 meter yachts are very exposed, you know, they're wet boats and the reason they're called the wet boat is because there's always water. Coming over the top, I got you. Yeah, you're always wet. So I'm wearing an inflatable life as get inflates if you get wet, you know it doesn't inflate unless you get closing its wet and holding the camera and there's a great shot of on the low side. We're going up when you know boats really healing over and on the low side and I'm really getting a great shot of of the sailors and we hit a wave and I got completely inundated by this way. You know the life vest inflates you know and I'm. I'm just holding the CM3 partially on your shoulder and all of a sudden I feel the camera go up over my head. Wow. And and it's because the light vest inflated in the meantime I had gotten hidden by the wave. I was down on the deck and I'm looking and all these sailors, all these professional sailors were in hysterics. It was like the funniest thing they've ever seen in their life. I'm fucking laying in a puddle of water with the camera up over my head. The life is inflated and this is never going to work. In the meantime, we've been looking for 35 millimeter, 8 ton cameras because they just been invented. There were only about 10 of them in existence everywhere in the world. And so we finally were able to acquire 28235 millimeter or 8 tons, which made the whole, yeah, it was like you familiar with the camera. Speaker 1 Oh yeah, it was just perfectly ergonomic. Yeah. Speaker 2 And it was like. Hook that said, over your shoulder and my experience of Wolper, I knew the the 16 millimeter clear and you know and how handy it was in terms of a handheld camera and the 35 was sort of was designed by a jumpier who designed the 16 millimeter and clear. So it was like. Made sense compared to any other handheld camera. Like I go into Panda Vision and they refused to rent me in the cameras because they knew that salt water would destroy the the. It was at the lane. It was at the. Speaker 1 Lane. Speaker 2 That's right, yeah. And Phil Rain told me that he we can't drench the camera because the salt water would kill the camera, you know, so. So the Claire was the only camera potentially we could use and we're able to acquire three of them after literally searching all over the all over the planet, you know. So based on the one experience I had with the self inflated life vest, he was able to talk Carol into going out of her way to get the 35 minutes. Yeah, so we shot that movie, and that was my first feature as a deal. Speaker 1 What? What movie was that? What was that? It's called Wind. Speaker 2 Wind, yeah, it was about America's Got yacht racing. Not an accessible film commercially, but really interesting to look at. You know and we shot, we shot aboard the 12 meter yachts in really rough conditions in Australia and then we were working on the West Coast of Australia. But the weather there was for sailing was very conditional and during the winter months or winter months it was ideal sort of sailing conditions but that only lasted for eight or ten weeks. There was a delay in getting the picture under underway because of financing. We sort of missed the window of opportunity for the for the weather and we ran out of, we ran out of wind basically. Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. Oh, because it just stops. Speaker 2 And then, yeah, it sees them. It was season, so every day we go out and every day there'd be less and less so. And we started late because the winds and wind season was like November to February. We didn't get going until January so we ran out of wind. And when they producer comes to us and says we're going to have to leave Australia and because we have no wind and there's no, you know, we will be about it's a work sailboats racing and then they'll win the boats, the boats don't go. In meantime, the guys who were sailing the boats were all professional sailors, I mean and they really knew what they were doing, I'm sure. So we had a meeting one day and they said, well we have to go somewhere else in the world where there's win. And he said, he said, well, one guy said, well East Coast of Africa, it would be pretty good. I mean and they were seriously considering going, you know, and another guy said, well the Mediterranean's pretty good. You know, this time of year one of the one of the sailors had been on Dennis Connors America's Cup got racing teams because we trained in Hawaii and the, you know, they're in the Molokai channel, there's there's always wind, you know. So they said okay, let's check it out. In the meantime, we there was shooting schedule for Newport, RI and Wendover, UT. They said okay, let's go to Rhode Island and Utah. In the meantime, we'll figure out where in the world we're going to go shoot the racing which was turned out to be Hawaii and Wild Guy channel and we go and we shoot which is traditional 35 millimeter feature filmmaking. You know, the sort of the story part of the movie and at the end of the movie we go to Hawaii and shoot the all the, yeah, the racing, you know, which turn it's still one of my favorite food films that I've ever worked on. Speaker 1 I'll have to check it out of it. Speaker 2 Really. Well, nobody. Nobody's seen it, yeah. Now I'll look because it was sent successful in the in the theaters, yeah. And they they they pulled it. It was a tries to remove and they pulled it after about 3 weeks. And the only people in the world who've ever seen this movie are sailors. Speaker 1 Sailors. I was just. I have a friend. I guarantee you I'll, he'll know. Speaker 2 And I've run into people who sailors, members of yacht clubs who go see the movie like once a week. That's their they showed at the Yacht Club. Yeah. Because the sailing is so good. I mean, it's the sailing is incredible. Speaker 1 I'll put it on my list, absolutely. That's fantastic. Speaker 2 And the movies got some. The story is a little weak, but it's, I mean, it's a beautiful looking film. My first feature film was a DP. That's great. I'm really very proud of it, you know. But it was such a unique sort of filmmaking experience. Yeah, that's fantastic. And it was sort of, actually. That film got me my first, my second job as the DP, which was Legends of the Fall. Speaker 1 Legends of all was your second job as the DP? I had no idea. Speaker 2 Yeah, but it was because I had been recommended dad Vic, and I can't remember why, You know, for some reason it was always because the AD and Legends of Follow was a guy named Pat Crowley who became a producer. But I had worked when as a camera operator on 3 consecutive movies with Pat Rowley as an AD, and so he knew me as an operator. One was with director John Schlesinger, one was with Carol Rice and another one. A Mary Tyler Moore movie that I did with Jordan. So I done 3/3 films with Pat. Pat became a producer and Legends of the Fall and they were looking for a DP. So he recommended me to and I met Ed and I don't actually know how I got the job because it was like it was like my second film was a DP and it was a big movie. Brad Pitt, Julie Armond. I mean, it was a relatively big movie. Speaker 1 Was it daunting to go from from for your second movie into something that big? Speaker 2 No. Because of all my experiences in Operator, you know? Yeah, because I've done so many. You work with Copeland, you work with Francis. And so I was. So I wasn't intimidated by the idea. It was the specifics of that particular picture. Because it was in Canada and Calgary, I can only bring part of my crew and I got the script and I was very familiar. I was familiar with the stories of Jim Harrison novel novella really, And I knew that. I knew what I knew what the potential for the film was. But it was amazingly because I wanted to shoot all available light as much as possible in time of day. And so I knew what that film needed. I knew what it needed to be and you know how to shoot it. It was a question of basically trying to convince people to shoot it that way, because I just want to shoot primarily available light. Speaker 1 So it's all about scheduling really at the end of the day. Speaker 2 And so I I met Ed and I and I took a book of there was a book called The Vanishing Breed, which was a book National Geographic still photographer and accumulated all this, all this work, still photographs of Cowboys at work, which was shot all available light at different times of day. And. And it was great, really great, incredibly visual. And I took it and I had a meeting with Ed and I took it to Ed and I said, here's what your movie should look like. And he says, why do you, how do you do that? I said, well, you should all natural light, you know, you know, you have to just be of the right place at the right time of day and shoot, shoot that way. So I got the job, you know, so, So I had to basically after I got the job, we had to figure out how to convince everybody else that we were only going to shoot afternoons, you know, magic hour we're going to. The whole schedule had to be based on the time of day, not what was convenient for production. You know, we go to work and I go to Canada. And the first first AD that was on the movie, I presented this idea to Ed. And Ed said, that's great. That's what we're going to do. So the first day he quit, you know, so you can't shoot that way. You have to go tomorrow. You have to go to work at 7:00 in the morning, go home at, you know, 6. And whatever it was, I said no, no, we have to, we have to work around time and day about the light. So all of a sudden he comes in one day and he said there's an emergency in my family and I have to leave, you know. So he left. He quit. He got a job on another film, you know. And so they hired a guy who was a from Canada. First day from Canada was not particularly well experienced and he lasted a couple of weeks. You know we were still not shooting it. You know we're still in prep and they hired a guy and 1st day he named Dilo Otero who I knew from when I had been an operator and he'd been a second great guy. He had become a very successful first. So he came in and he was he was like a troubleshooting, you know, and he said and he was, he was ready to go to work and come on, let's get it done. You know, I said Neil, I'd like to shoot, you know, in this window of time, you know, we're going to shoot afternoons in magic hour. That's how we're going to shoot the movie. He said OK let's do that. So and he convinced the producer and so they everybody said, OK, let's, let's do that. You know, we'll see. We'll give it a go, you know give it a week or two and see what happens. And so we and we started scheduling the movie around the light not what was convenient for production and and that was the story of Legends and Falls. So we started shooting and everybody liked the way it looked and it created massive problems for production. I mean it was just but Neil and and that were able to they worked that out you know and they're very supportive and which was a great lesson to me. It's like you know DB is going to have the best intentions in the world, but unless you have support from production, you're fucked you know? And which is what happened on on Legends. Speaker 1 You know, wow, that's amazing that Well, it show, it shows, There's no question. As a cinematographer, what do you look for in operators? What what qualities do your do? Your operators? Speaker 2 You like them to have attitude and skill. Speaker 1 Can you can you expound on that? Speaker 2 Well, because of my experience as an operator, I I have a low tolerance for bullshit, you know? And because because I worked as an operator with really good directors of photography, you know and I and and none of them had the same sort of working style, it was all different, different style. So I as an operator, I always adjusted to whatever it was. The director of course. But however the director of photography wanted to work, I adjusted to that, but with my own sort of unique take on it. And somehow we always find a balance. Yeah, but I never tried to bullshit anybody. Yeah, you know, OK. And that's what I expect as an operator. Speaker 1 That's great. OK. Speaker 2 Yeah, because of my experience as an operator, I can see through the bullshit in the second. Yeah. Yeah, so. Speaker 1 Just be honest and and do you expect them to to I mean obviously you have your ideas of the shot. Speaker 2 Do you expect them to bring sort of, Yeah, I yeah. Speaker 1 Because there's some DP's who's who who I want XY&Z and they want XY&Z, but there's some DP's who say you know. Speaker 2 This is the general feeling because of my experience as an operator. And I would make suggestions and they would either go with my suggestions or not, you know, but. Speaker 1 What do you look for in a B? If you have an A and A/B camera operator, what do you look for in the B camera operator? Speaker 2 Because the a camera operator is obviously someone who running things but doesn't talk much and does it what they're told. Speaker 1 Okay. And do you expect them to be looking for shots or. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Because I I would expect any anybody who's got anything to do with creating content to have ideas and suggestions. That doesn't necessarily mean that I would either agree with that attitude or disagree with it because it wasn't my idea, you know? The worst possible thing director of photography can do is reject an idea because it's not their own idea, you know? So I would expect I respect an operator and have really good ideas, good suggestions, and not get their feelings hurt if I didn't accept the idea. Speaker 1 You know that that's phenomenal. And it's so it's so great to hear because not everybody has that. Speaker 2 I mean, if they come up with a better idea, then I'm happy to accept it because I'll take full credit for it. Of course, if it works and if it doesn't, it's their fucking problem. Speaker 1 And that's why you're the DP. Speaker 2 I mean, it's, you know. Speaker 1 And what people operators who are sort of coming up, are there any, is there any specific advice you can give them as far as, I mean, you mentioned skill and attitude, but anything specific for an up and coming operator from someone like yourself? Speaker 2 Yeah, watch. Don't talk more than you have to. Don't get your feelings or if you're if nobody goes for your ideas. Speaker 1 I like that a lot, actually, because that's, that's especially when you're first starting on your questioning whether you know what you're doing to have something shot down as tough. Speaker 2 Yeah. And it doesn't hurt for an operator to look for confirmation that what they're doing is, is good. Yeah, you know. Speaker 1 What? What's your What's your suggestion? Not that this ever happens. Speaker 2 When you have an operator has the DP saying we want to do this and the director saying we want to do that and they don't, they don't meet in the middle but then the director in the GDP need to have a conversation you know is that the operators problem You know I like that's like or the operator can go to the DP and said I know what you're saying but the director wants this, what do you want? Speaker 1 To do about it, What do you want to do? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a tough position to be in. Did you ever, you ever find yourself in those positions? Speaker 2 I'm trying to think and I yeah, I probably did, but I can't give. Speaker 1 You that's that's you probably wiped it like I have. Do you remember any times as an operator where you just completely failed you couldn't get a shot. You couldn't. I mean. I mean there's always the for me there's always. Speaker 2 I never get it to the my life because because I was experienced enough to know whether I could do it or not. Speaker 1 Gotcha. Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean the upside down Dr. Pepper commercial. That's all I had No fucking idea if I. Speaker 1 Can pull that? Is that viewable? Is that on the Internet somewhere? Speaker 2 Because I'm going to look. Well, it's I did. I did see it recently, but it was sort of a demonstration of something. But it's a Dr. Pepper commercial we shot in. I don't know. Early 80s I'm going. Speaker 1 To look for it because it sounds fascinating. So one thing you you you touched on a couple times that actually a lot of people who might listen to this may have no concept of and I I got the tail end of Can you just talk about what it was like being an operator and coming in in the morning and watching dailies and that experience? Because most people don't have that now. Was it stressful? Speaker 2 I was more curious than anything, you know, because I would. At the end of the day, I would. I would have a pretty good idea of, well, that that's going to look good or that's really, you know, that's going to be messy. And I had a habit of going to labs along with directors of photography and seeing, seeing stuff in the morning. You know, it's like, I think probably the best example of walking away, not having a clue what, whether the work was working or not, was, was working in a film with George Miller. Did. I did. We talked about that. Speaker 1 No, no, no. Speaker 2 I didn't know you were I was with Ellen Davio Got it. Got a job doing after E T2 episodes of the Twilight Zone movie. The Twilight Zone movie had four directors. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 One of the directors was Steven. He did one of the segments and the other was with George Miller Australian and George Miller. And this is George had done Road Warrior. Speaker 1 Yep. Did he do the kick the can? Which? What episode? Do you remember the story? Which one it was? Speaker 2 It was the the monster on a wing. Speaker 1 Oh, the plane terror at 10,000, whatever it was. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Originally William Shatner in the original with with. Speaker 1 Yep, Yep, Yep. Speaker 2 And so, and this is George, Georgia was had never done a movie here and so he was hired to do the Man on the wing episode. And Alan, because of ET, was hired by Stephen and so Allen got to do the Man on the Wing with George. Speaker 1 Just just that. That segment of it or the whole movie? Speaker 2 No, the whole no. He got there were 4 segments. Speaker 1 Yeah, but he was a distinct photographer. Speaker 2 George and Stevens, I see. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 Segment and then and Joe Dante and John Landis did the other two. Yeah, OK. And they were in the tragic accident. Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. Speaker 2 So we did George's, we did George's segment before Stevens and by this time Alan I had, I had a history with Alan and I had done some work on ET and. Speaker 1 You were an operator at this point for Alan. Speaker 2 Yeah, I met Alan. I met Alan when he first got into the camera union on a TV movie that he he was hired to do a TV movie. Because he was hired to do it, he was able to get into the union. And and I had worked with the director Jerry Friedman on other TV movies and Jerry recommended me to Alan as an operator because Alan didn't have an operator. He had he had operated on himself. So he said, yeah, OK we'll hire this guy jumped on so but I knew Alan from that and I did the ET and all the ET documentary stuff and then I started working with Alan as an operator and so we got he got the Twilight Zone movie and and I became the operator on Twilight Zone movie. George was really cool. You know? You. I mean really, really cool. Speaker 1 This was right after Road Warrior, like it had just happened. Speaker 2 Or it was a year. I was not not right after, but it was. It was. It was a while and he had, but it was the first movie that he had done outside of Australia. That's a bit different, probably. And Steven hired him because because of Road Warrior, because it was so unique. So it started out Alan has steak, him, Garrett Smith, Garrett Brown to come in and do because Alan knew we wanted a mobile camera inside the plane. Speaker 1 Inside the plane. Speaker 2 And so Garrett came with his steady Cam, and this is without much consultation with George, you know. And so we got in the plane, first day in the plane George said well you know there's a lot of turbine in the story, there's a lot of turbines in the lane. So we need a very active camera and I think that's why Alan thought of Garrett and the steady came right, but and so we got the steady came out and Alan's and George is it's not busy enough, you know it's got to be more active. So we tried moving Garrett around with the camera and George kept saying it's got to be more active, got to be more active, you know, more more excitement and so and so we started walking around handheld and he says it's not active enough, you know. So in the end what we turned out doing is I would. I would get the camera and hold it handheld and shake it as hard, as hard as I could and to the point where I wasn't able to keep my eye in the eyepiece. But the more I shook it, the more George ready to get excited about it because he, George would sit. Speaker 1 He is coming off the road warrior. Speaker 2 He's the most unique director that I've worked with in business, you know, and a great guy, you know, and Garrett would be trying to do some moves, steady Cam moves, you know, which would be and steady Cam is designed to be his smooth device. And George was looking for exactly the opposite. You know, he just, no, it's too smooth, too smooth. He says he's got to handle hand hold the camera. And just so I would hand hold it, he says no, it's too steady. You know, it was like, you know, it was like, you know, hand holding or steady Cam. The idea is you're trying to stabilize the camera, look like it's on a Dolly, you know. And George said no, take the camera and shake it. So after a while I I would shake the camera and look it through and he said no, no more and more. And you know he kept saying he'd be sitting right next to me say more and more looking at the monitor you know and and we're on in an airplane mock up and we're trying to shake the mock up as much as possible moving around he said more more so I start shaking the camera and he would, I could I could never get enough movement in the camera for a while. I would just close the eyepiece. Just. Speaker 1 Just move it. Speaker 2 Not even look through the camera. Just look through my left eye how long side the man box so I could put, I could it's a wider lens that I could pretty much tell if somebody was close to being in frame or not you know. And I would just, I mean literally shake the camera. And I'm going to watch this as hard as I could. Take it off my shoulder and you know, with a pan flex or the front of it. Magazine just grabbed that two handles and shake the camera and kind of look through my, not through the lens but with my left eye along the mat box and see if I was close to being you know like a gun site. You think he's in frame or not. You know, it was like, and that was and every and when I would do that, George would sit next to me with a monitor saying. Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. Speaker 2 And Garrett. And then we would use Garrett with the steady Cam and he would run up and down the aisle shaking the camera and George would just say more, more, you know, So that was the whole story of that movie and it was like and it worked. You know, it's like when you look at look at the film, it was like there's no sense of it. It just looks like and we're in a mock up and you know as the mock up of the plane and the visual the special face guys are shaking the plane as much as they possibly can where it looked like it felt like the plane was going to come into the rig was going to fall apart. No, it was I mean it was great and and we go to Daly's at at Technicolor and we're shooting the Warner Brothers and we go to Daly's at Technicolor and there was a guy named Dick Barlow who used to be the head of production at the Warner Brothers a lot and and John, John and John Bickford he was the he was the dailies supervisor. And so Allen and George and I would go to Warner Brothers or go to the technical at 6:00 in the morning and look at dailies, you know, and John Bickford and Barlow would sit in the back of the room, you know, watching dailies. And our work will come up and it would be all this really hard, all this shaking cameras all over the place. And George would sit there going, yeah, yeah, right. Fantastic. And I look at Barlow and Dick Barlow and John Vickford and they'd be looking at each other and going what the fuck are they doing? You know, that's unbelievable. But it was, I mean it was that that episode is fantastic episode. Yeah. The man on the wing on the and in George Miller's episode of the Twilight, So I was unbelievable. Speaker 1 Now I gotta watch it again with that in mind to see if it's how crazy it is. I remember it was a long time ago. Yeah, I I I think almost famous. Speaker 2 To me maybe the the perfect movie almost famous. I. Speaker 1 Think Almost Famous is one of the greatest movies ever made. And I mean particularly there's that there's a scene in there. Speaker 2 Cameron Crowe would be good. Speaker 1 To hear Cameron Crowe, it's it's a genius film but there's the scene in there where I forget her name. It's been a while since I've seen it but they're they're they're Kid Hudson. But I can't think of her her character's name. She's anyway, but they're they're pumping her stomach in New York and and and the kids watching and it's pushing in and there's an Elton John playing song playing so beautiful and it's just it's a fantastic movie. But I was wondering. Speaker 2 What what that experience was like for you, just because I have to ask, was it either the whole movie? No, the whole movie just, you know, it was good. You know what I mean? Cameron's a really Cameron's cool. He's a really good guy. Yeah, but the I don't want to use the word experimental. But we we sort of, he kind of had its own evolution, you know, while we were shooting, you know, and it was personal for for Cameron, obviously, because it's based on his, his story. Speaker 1 Was it? Speaker 2 Wasn't he like 16 or 17 or 1515? Yeah. And he was, yeah, it was crazy, you know? And the beginning of the movie, there's there's a big concert scene in San Diego, and we shot in the actual physical location where Cameron is 15 year old. Speaker 1 Oh, really? Oh, wow. Wow. Speaker 2 That was the actual, you know, that old stuff that happened in the back alley and everything was actually where that all happened. Speaker 1 That's really cool. Yeah, that's amazing. Speaker 2 So it was really incredible personal story for. Yeah, and and he was great, you know, he was great and he was really good with everybody and. Speaker 1 When when you're doing something like that that's so personal to him, is it, is it hard to continue the filmmaking process of it evolving as you're shooting it because he sees it a specific way or was he open to interpretation of it? Speaker 2 I mean he was. He was never, he was never adamant about our. Speaker 1 Physical approach, and it if it was, it didn't have to be an exact 100% recreation of of of the event, so you could. Speaker 2 Take it was he was always conscious of the the technique you know and and if we came close that was that was good enough you know plus. You know, the actors brought what they could do to him, sure. I think he was more critical of the performance in in which is the actors behavior as opposed to, you know, photographically. Speaker 1 You know, it's a great movie and it's a beautiful movie. Frances Mcdormand in that movie, she's great across the board, but she in that movie is so perfect when she has him on the phone and she's telling him, yeah, she's going to do with her son. Speaker 2 Who's a lot of fun to do and everything on that bus was shot on a bus. Speaker 1 On location a real bus driving. Speaker 2 Around a real bus driving around and the her bought was a gig. Rip and I couldn't figure out how we were going to move the camera inside the bus while it was driving. It was out in Mojave. We were driving and there was a fixture in the roof. Speaker 1 I guess it was for lighting and there was there was a groove in there in the roof of the bus. Speaker 2 In the roof, in the interior, yeah, yeah, and, Herb said. Herb kept looking at it and he said you know I think I could I could create a rig because I kept saying it's got to be hand held it's got to be hand held and but it it would have been too awkward than you know it was too narrow between the seats. It would have been cumbersome, you know, and not that particularly photographically terrific. And Herb said I could I could hang something from there. And so we we he was able to rig a Weaver Steven head. Speaker 1 From the roof so we could Dolly up and down the Wow. So it's it was it was it was under slung essentially coming. Yeah. It's interesting because I always assumed that that was some set or something I didn't. Speaker 2 Know that was really think about location. Speaker 1 That's amazing. Speaker 2 Yeah, we're driving around Mojave. Speaker 1 That's fantastic. Speaker 2 Yeah, it was. Everything in the bus was shot. Wow. Speaker 1 On a bus, that's great. Speaker 2 Everything out the windows was. Yeah, it was out the windows. Speaker 1 That's that's fantastic. That's great. Speaker 2 And he was able to rig it, you know, and he kept, he kept looking at it when we were and I kept, I couldn't figure out how we're going to do it. And he kept looking at his I could, we can hang a Weaver step in the head and you could kind of just walk up and down the aisle. And that's what we did. Speaker 1 That's fantastic. I love that. That's great. And. And what about what about Braveheart? Because that seems like that was such an epic. I mean, it's a massive film, right? Yeah. And I mean, it was just complete. When you go into something like that, is it just completely overwhelming at first? Yeah, because of the size of. Speaker 2 It basically, yeah, yeah. But it was, I mean, it's what is what Mel wanted, you know, it's like, and I still still can't figure out how I got that job. Speaker 1 You said the love, but I think it's based on your other other work. Speaker 2 Well, yeah, but that the only movies that I've done prior to the only features I've done is a DP. Speaker 1 Were Wind with the Sailboat movie and Legends of the Fall, and I think that Braveheart was your third movie. Speaker 2 Yeah, and I almost. I was. I almost turned it down because I got the call to meet Mel and I went to meet him and we had dinner and it's sounded sounded really cool. Because of my experience on wind and Legends of the Fall, I knew that I needed. To take people with me, you know, like key people, gaffer and grip. You know, maybe a camera operator. I knew I could operate it if I had to. I could operate myself, but I would prefer not to, you know, and but I I needed a gaffer and a grip. I've been shooting commercials before that, you know, so and I had just before I got the call to meet Mel. I had done a commercial in London and I had a really bad experience with the crew there, you know, Then I got the call beat, Mel met him, got along great and then the producer said that and I had mentioned that I wanted to take a gaffer and a grip and the producer said, well we can't do that. You know it's going to there's there's lots of people in England are good and were obviously and I said well I need people that I've worked with before and and. Only because of my some unfortunate experiences with people that I didn't work with. I said this is a big picture of Braveheart. You know, I need people. I know I need that. You know, the collaborative working relationship producer came back and said that's not possible. It is you or nothing. And I turned it down and it was really, it was it was quite uncomfortable because I didn't. I met Mel and we had a good meeting with the dinner. And then he started talking to his producer and and the producer said, well, we can't afford to take more than the director of photography. And I didn't hear this until the second meeting. Mel and the producer were there and and they said, well, we can't, we can't afford to take. Speaker 1 And then and I just said that I'm not the guy you know, which would they probably did not expect I would imagine. Speaker 2 And it's just three of us at dinner, you know, and it's like before this, before the Hors d'oeuvres, you know, that's fantastic. That was the most awkward situation you can imagine, you know, And then because we're there talking, going to talk about how we're going to shoot the movie, and all of a sudden I said, well, I'm not the guy. You got the wrong guy. Speaker 1 And but I didn't leave, you know, I just had open up your menu and. Speaker 2 What are you going to have? You know, and so. And then, so then they start talking about the movie. You know, I would jump in and say something and then they start asking me questions about this and that. There was no agreement that I was going to do the movie or I was not going to do the movie. We just heard everybody just assumed that, OK, looks like he's going to do it. You know, I was like and I went home that night at the thinking, I have no idea if I'm doing the movie or not. And so I got a call the next day, just like. Okay. When do you want to? When do you want to go, you know? And so then I was doing movies. So I wound up taking the gaffer grip and then eventually the camera operator that I'd used on Legends as well. Speaker 1 Who was that? Speaker 2 His name is John Clothier, great operator for Vancouver, one of the best operators I've ever worked with and a small guy. You know, he's like because I couldn't take an operator to Canada. And so we hired John Clothier. He was recommended. I have no idea where he came from and. One of the first days of shooting, shooting a fight scene and he had to do a shot and he was operating and he had to do a shot. He had to get really low and somebody was on the ground and and stand up, you know? And he got, he got into a position, he was with the Panaflex 500 of the magazine. Speaker 1 He got into a position where he was sort of crouched down and he had his legs crossed, you know, and and he was like squatted, I mean, literally hard to get up from, yeah. Speaker 2 Well, almost impossible, yeah. I mean, he tried doing it without a without a Panaflex on your shoulder and do that. And he had his legs crossed. And I'm standing behind him, you know. Much on his, he said. He's fucked. You know, he's like, he's never going to be able to. He's never going to be able to. Speaker 1 He just kind of, like, stood. Speaker 2 Up, stood up, you know, but it's like, And then I crossed his legs. There you go, I said. You know, he gets to do all the shots. Speaker 1 That's great, you know. Speaker 2 Because I was still coming off of like a head work and doing a lot of commercials and I was always operating myself. Yeah, sometimes I would operate on other films and. So I watched him do that and I said it's unbelievable. I could never do that. He gets, he gets to operate all the time. Speaker 1 You know, that's great. Speaker 2 And then when I went to England and that was the legends and I went to England, I kept assuming, OK, well I'm going to need an English operator or you're being operator. And I interviewed about five or six guys and it was just he could just tell the chemistry wasn't there, you know, plus the, you know, the working relationship operators and it's a different working relationship, you know, and the English crews. And I said this is not going to work, you know, and I went to produce and everything I need to bring an operator. I said OK, you know, he said OK, no problem. And I called John and he was available and John came and did Raveheart. That's great. It was the best thing I could have possibly done. That's fantastic. It's actually the best. Having worked as an operator, I know what a good operator is. He could do shots and. I would have found impossible. Speaker 1 That's great that did he. There's a great shot in the movie that I think is at the end with the with the sword flying through the air end over end and then it sort of hits in the ground into that. What do you remember that as being a tough shot to get because it seems like it's a long. Speaker 2 Way that whole day was a nightmare, you know, That whole day was that that whole day was at the end of the first battle sequence. You know, the first battle sequence. Speaker 1 Oh, is that one? It is OK, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, it was. I mean, not in continuity in the film, Yeah. Yeah, but in. In that that location. And we had shot that first battle sequence for the horse charge and which was you know absolute nightmare. But it turned out great, you know, and there was no plan for that particular. It was the end of the movie and we had no plan. Everybody was exhausted because we've just been shooting two weeks of the battle and he said okay, now we're going to shoot the end of the movie. And I showed up that day and the AD great AD guy named David Tomlin had sort of set up a shot that was. It didn't work, you know, it was like the Scots were up in the hill but the English were down, you know, like literally about 1/4 of a mile away, you know, it just didn't work. So we adjusted the shot and we sort of improvised all this stuff with the sword and it was all improvised on the day we we didn't know we were going to do it. And then Mel shows up and said, well, I've got a couple ideas and the idea of the sword through the air and was was all all the stuff that he came up with on the day and. John Clothier was such a fantastic operator. Obviously he was the unbelievable and he could do stuff that I never would dream of even trying to do is that's amazing. Yeah, he was really unbelievable. That's fantastic and literally the best operator I've ever worked. Speaker 1 That's amazing. Speaker 2 And just perfect attitude, you know, It's like nothing's a problem, you know? I was like, OK, you know, he's like and just does it, you know. Speaker 1 So I've I've wanted I I could ask you questions forever, but I don't want to keep you forever. This is, this is fascinating. But there's a new thing that is happening within the business where DPS have operators on headsets all the time. And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on that because I ask everybody this question. Speaker 2 I wonder what they talk about, you know, what are they talking about? You tell me. Pan. Pan left, Pan right. Less headroom. I mean, is that, is that what's happening? Speaker 1 Well, I don't know what's happening with everybody. I mean it's what I've been told before because I essentially won't do it. I mean, if I'm on a remote head, obviously understood. And if if you're half a mile away, and that's just what I understand it, but I think there are a lot of people who who they say, well, it's just faster and I go, yeah, but I'm going to do the take and then I'll come over and talk to you or my assistant. So if you need a last minute, but if you're talking during the shot, so so, so. Off the top of my head because I didn't really experience that, but does it sound like you? Speaker 2 Do that. I have an operator that you feel confident enough in that they can compose a decent looking image. Then you got the wrong operator. You know and and and basically then. Or you should be operating yourself. You know, like if you don't have confidence in your operator, then you're you're off on. You're on the wrong track. You know, It's like don't either don't hire that operator or, you know, fire them and and do it yourself Or you know you can't can't recompose every image off through a radio right now. So if you don't like the composition, So what are you, what are you going to tell him? Change the composition during the shot you know. Like like finish the shot, do another take and DP operate himself. Speaker 1 You know, it's like, I love that. I love that answer. It's everything that I agree with right there. But I ask everybody that because it's becoming more and more of a thing in the industry. Well. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 I I just, I don't understand it. Yeah. And it sounds like you don't either and I I feel like I'm a good company there. Yeah. Speaker 2 It's like, yeah, it was like only I can compose the images. I mean this. And then they should do it themselves. Just operate themselves. Why? Why hire an operator? You don't have confidence in it, you know? Speaker 1 Agreed. Speaker 2 Agreed. I just worked with Peter Roosevelt, you know, great operator and I was, I'm not about to basically try to talk him. Talk on the radio, telling him what he's doing wrong. Getting a shot. Speaker 1 Yeah, well, listen, thank you so much for this. This was fantastic talking to you. I really hearing all these stories. I enjoyed them so much. So I hope. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And. Speaker 2 OK. I just in terms of having worked as an operator, I definitely respect what operators do and appreciate the fact we have operators if DP's don't have the confidence in an operator. Enough to basically just turn them loose and they're working backwards basically. You know. Speaker 1 Well, there you have it. I hope you enjoyed listening to John as much as I enjoyed sitting down and talking with him. What a what an amazing career and amazing person and and just such great stories. It was fantastic. Please check out the website at the op dot io. Instagram is the same handle. And if you like the episode, please hit those five stars, Give us a good review and share us with your friends. In the meantime, we'll see you in a couple of weeks. Thanks.