Chuck McBride- Cutwater

Welcome to the latest episode of Inspiring Features. My guest is Chuck McBride. Chuck really needs no introduction but we'll find a way of getting that Chuck is the founder of Cartwater and also has a really storied history working in the ad scene for the last few decades. So I thought as a way of making the introduction a little bit more interesting I was going to fire a brand at him and we can go for a few because he's worked on pretty much many of the iconic brands that we all love. So I thought it'd start with Levi's. Well Levi's and I have a long history together which has been wonderful. Three times foot cone and Levi's and then a little bit of cut water. So it's been three different agencies as well and different CMOs and what have you. So very different places each time. But it was my favorite. Like that was my girl. I still wish I was doing it. What is it? What is it? What is it about? I'm not right now. In fact that commercial they just did in the Super Bowl. I did that with the with the photographer for Levi's about 15 years ago maybe longer. All I did is take pictures of people's asses. It was great. It was really fun. What what what what binds you to the brand do you think? It's interesting. There's a few brands I think you have in your career that you wore. You know you you played with or you know you it was it was a part of your you know your childhood and that was Levi's for me. And so to work on it was like a total you know dream and it was just you know complete treat the entire time. And you know I took a personal responsibility to try to you know treat it well. But you made a you made a few iconic spots right in your time. Yeah. You want to talk about about those and how they came in the line. Sure. Sure. The beginning you know it was interesting because when I came in there when I was over it you know it was at FUCCUM they had just they were just kind of wrapping up the 501 reasons campaign. So when I got in there you know we kind of worked with that for you know a hot second or so and we worked on a couple different TV films and you know they they're back then Levi's was doing on you know two or three films a year so there was plenty of swings of the bat so to speak. And but that sort of wound down and and you know the they were trying at a point in time then to shift away just from fiber ones because they they were actually not selling that well. The fiber ones weren't selling well and the kids were buying 505's or you know some of their more slim fit jeans and and of course the women you know we're we're the women's business has been a little bit wonky for a long time. And so they came up with this wide leg product and the concept there's there's a bunch of concepts that kind of floated down it was a little bit of a crazy one part of the agency was trying to kind of take over the project and and things like that so there was a there was a political fucking nightmare internally at the agency I honestly enough and um yeah like we were doing everything we could it fuck it up and and but you know in that chaos came this why does that campaign and and um it was called it's wide open and my theory was that if you're you know if you're you know somebody who's whose had youthful tendencies you know you looked at screens as a place where things could happen that normally wouldn't happen in real life and so I kind of conjured up these commercials that just allowed these crazy little moments to happen and treat them like these little mini films and I had gotten Michael Bay and Spike Jones to do a couple of spots I'd form relationships with those guys over the years from from working with Nike and and on milk and so I wanted to give him both a shot at it and uh Michael did this lovely commercial about a story and elevator where you fall in love and you have a full lifetime with this girl as you just stare into the rise and then you wake up and snap out a bit when the baby's born kind of thing and get everything's normal yeah and then and then with uh with Spike we're going for a musical and it was kind of like a a stomp musical at the time there was this musical stomp and the and the sounds came from really kind of ordinary objects and stuff like that so we placed this scene in a in a hospital room where the machine started playing the sound and the whole the whole you know operating crews starts dancing to the music and it was like the perfect spot to get to Spike because he's like he's a genius with musical routines and he had just had a bunch of really great ideas and and um I think the music how do the music come for that uh come to being for that because it's like like the mix is for yeah yeah it it was funny he really wanted Jake Iles band the uh my was it my love runs cold yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly he's in the centerfold but um but I just kept on going like you know because it didn't come up you know the the the tainted love would come out and I what that's it you know the boob boob boob you know so I was really excited about and I think I'm excited about it. May Spike go no I don't want to do it it's too easy track and I went no it's gonna be great so he he kind of begrudgingly said okay let's figure it out yeah you know it was it was the and any one of the best parts of this was you know as we're getting you know the job was awarded and he was thinking about it and you know like are you can do anything you want just don't kill the guy and and of course he comes back to it so I killed up I killed it when it goes but but he's tired about it because but I bring him back to life it was pretty funny and was that was that something that um was a hard thing to sell the client given it was sort of like had that kind of edge to it yeah yeah it was and you know I'm surprised that I made to be fair there was a time where um you know we we're there was a former group that had been working on the brand and then I had come in and and we was given the the responsibility but you know I'd allow these guys to all kind of pitch in on these efforts and so we kind of had these two campaigns in the mix and uh we went to focus groups and I sat there in a room where you know the client literally chose the other campaign because it came from the guys that he had mostly hired and protected so to speak and so you know I remember the planner came in at the time he says you got to be fucking kidding me this these clearly one what are you doing you're totally you know playing up and he just kind of said what it was and and and kind of shook the the the uh you know the the the client side part of the business you know and into like gosh we are kind of playing politics a little bit here you know and so we took it further up the ladder you know everybody reviewed the the focus group results and you know kind of came to their senses and so we got permission to go do it and and you know I was glad we did because down the road you know I remember there was a client named Stacy came up to me outside of the compound and said we need more the world needs more Richards Chuck we need more Richards out there wherever Richard came from we need to do that we need to do that more and we had gone to the Christmas party that year and the you know the the gene sold out that's it was kind of cool like that it it shit worked it wasn't like a it wasn't just fun it actually helped sell a ton of genes and they they all the wholesale accounts you know bought in and stuff like that's heard we got by behind behind it and you know did a lot of good for him but they can they can never understand it it part of my you know frustrations with Levi's was they were there were always sort of you know it was like a it's a client that demanded you know your your your attention but you know kind of you didn't treat you very well sometimes you know to say you know I mean it was a little like you know for the for the the power of the work the power that the work exactly like you know for as much love as I was putting into it I never felt it back to be for you and uh and and with them but you know I kept on delivering and and so you know it was always you know a bit of a you know bittersweet thing with the life flushing in front of you or the the imagined life fashion in front of your eyes that uh personal thing totally it was a total I had that experience on a subway I mean you know coming into just just going to come into the office it could be it was yeah you know when people were looking at their phones they were kind of looking at each other I think yeah yeah super magical we just scared it too long yeah it's great I I have a lot of those so I mean to be fair I don't know you know how other writers do it but there's a lot of me and everything that I try to do yeah there's always there's something like Levi's we have this one thing it was corduroy's and you know I always remember it how corduroy would make that sound and I remember just looking over to Soto and I said it's fit fit that's the idea because we didn't even do it because it's put fit it goes that the sound they make and oh yeah that's the spot we got to it's got to be a bad foot fit yeah well I mean it's kind of like it's you got something in you that every other people have right so they're kind of it's the relatability thing. That's so, it's so incredible. Yeah, it was always interesting. I've always felt like you know, when you're trying to write something, the best thing to do is write it for yourself and maybe one other person. You know, you're just trying to make, you know, you're some user or a friend happy. You know, I mean, if they get the joke, then other people get it too. So, I've always looked at it kind of that way. It's like, you know, everything's kind of inside joke and you share it with the world and then, you know, fortunately, these experiences are kind of shared between a lot of other people out there and they find, they find an audience that way. What about milk drinking? Were you a milk drinking? I actually was. I was a pretty good milk drinker when I was a kid. I kind of lost my appetite, my appetite for it. But yeah, I was one of those kids who told me, could you relate to the idea that was being presented strategically? You know, it was one of those things where it presented itself in such a way that it was so convincing to say, the only time you give a shit about milk is when you don't have it, when you're eating something, you should have milk for it made sense because I had gotten to that stage where I wasn't drinking that much. And so I was kind of like, and milk just leaves my mouth, you know, flemmy and it's kind of uncomfortable. And but then when I realized that, I went, yeah, you're right, there's no way you can do a peanut butter chili sandwich out of milk. And so then we had fun with it. Then I turned into torture. We literally dubbed them snuff films because you basically have someone eat something and then just fuck them. It was just, it was, it was really brutal. It was like, how, how, how poorly can you treat somebody after they, you know, after they take a bite of something? I think the thing that when we child earlier that I thought was so interesting was how you were worried that they would be flat because this sort of scenario was the situation was like this room, something's happening. Yeah, they're here. And it could have the potential. So I thought, how you explained how you kind of ratchet into this up to like add the drama was. Yeah, there were very, you know, straightforward dialogue films. I mean, you know, this, you know, Aaron Burr was written to be in a kitchen, you know, sitting in a kitchen, you know, making him sandwich. And if you ever shot that in a kitchen, you can see how much he would have been. I don't know, I've done that before and it, it doesn't turn out well. And so when things started of mold and, you know, as we discussed, it was really, I think, the destiny that, you know, we had with, to get Michael on that job, you know, the way he was thinking about it was so unique. It was like, dude, we got to do it this guy. This is, this is the way we need to do it. You know, he turned it into a huge space and we started riffing about all the things that need to be in the room to make it, you know, feel like he's sort of a tortured historian in a weird sort of way and the casting had it, had it be really over the top. We, we talked about that. I, as one of those few times where, you know, when you start talking about an idea with a director, there's some that just get it so good and you get so excited about it and you start throwing in ideas too. And I, you know, it made fast friends with, with Michael Bayo and I, because, you know, we really loved, you know, kind of going back and forth on those kind of things. And, and it was great. I've, I've, I kept hiring him all the way through Asuzu. He helped me out on Asuzu and things like that. I've, you know, it's always, it was always a, it was always a great choice for me. We, we, people who, my, I've had friends call me up when they're shooting with Michael and say, how the fuck do you deal with this guy? I got it. You got to work everything out beforehand. You can't let it happen on the set. Yeah, yeah. But, uh, but yeah, he did a killer Asuzu spot for me where we had put a giant, CV at a toy box. And, uh, it was so cool because it was just like, you know, it's, it's the adult toy, right? And he, the, he had started shooting it and he, he had this kid acting really bad. The dad was kind of flumbling around and we spent the whole day, you know, that felt for beginning of the day, just shooting garbage. And I find that we got, we got, we got to, we got to lunch. He came up, so this is awesome, isn't it? And I went, no, you're fucking this where I am. And he goes, what are you talking about? And I go, it's just simple. It's like, ooh, ooh. And then, ooh, that's all you have to do. So anyway, we had to step outside and have that chat. And, you know, there was some, some temper there. But, uh, once he decided to do it, you know, the kids go, ooh, you know, it was gentle. Suddenly the kids are not going crazy for these toys. He's just looking like, ooh, ooh, right? And then dad comes up to this big glow and he looks at it. And I'll, I'll never forget because when he, we were doing that little bit in the, in the car, he goes, ooh, the set was so silent. You know, I would, I love when you're on set because when you tell a good joke, especially if it's like, nobody laughs, but they go silent. You know, and, and you know, you had something funny. And something happened because everybody, everybody felt it. And, and that was, that was one of those times where everybody felt it. And it was really, it was really cool. And again, Michael looks back to me and just goes, you asshole. He hates it when I was right. Do you think this, um, the television commercial is like, it's own very unique art form, you know, like, like, there's something, something, nothing has come close to it. You know, it's like, it's this, you know, you can talk about all the other media and digital and all the other stuff. But at the end of the day, there's just something about this thing that's such, does such an amazing job that you come up with. Yeah. It is, it is, it is the, it is a universal medium that, you know, some must have been short films the other day and talking about how hard, I think it was one of the presenters at the, the Oscars actually say how hard it is to tell the story in a short format. It's like, I tried 30 seconds, dude. But, but I think and you got a brand and you do get a brand. I think, you know, to me, I think it's, it's been a part of pop culture to be fair, you know, I think it's, it's grounded in, you know, kind of our understanding of what television was all about. Bringing the world into our living room and experiencing these different sort of, you know, different sort of stories. Part of the trade-offs, like this, you know, you get an advertising as part of the package, kind of, but you get into the entertainment and when you get ads and hopefully they're, if they're really, hopefully they can be good. And that's what the great Zoe's told us, right? You know, that was, you know, that was, that was a unbox, that was everybody. You know, there's good ads and bad ads. We just choose to do good ones, right? That's the way it's going to work. And I think advertising in this world is going away. In fact, you know, we all know they've already figured out a way to do it with, with AI now. So you're going to get ads within AI. So ads aren't going the way. I just think that every time they appear, if they have people that care work on them, they're going to be smart. I mean, we, I mean, I think, for people, I mean, to be fair, I think a creative person is one of the most empathetic creatures on this planet. Because the first thing you have to do, they have to walk in somebody else's shoes to understand what's going on. And if they start to really identify with that audience and what they really care about and what this, this, this, this product or this brand is doing for them, whether they like it or not, they actually do understand them and they figure out what, what needs are being met, how, how do they emotionally react to it and stuff like that. And so you really, you really kind of learn to, to appreciate how other people live. And, you know, and I don't think we try to make light of that. I think we, we, we care about it. I have never seen somebody come in and say, I'm going to go make a shitty ad that tries to piss people off. That doesn't happen. I think most people come and say, I want to do something at least connects, at least. And, and, and then there's others that connect and go a little bit further into the point where they actually entertain and become part of your life in a weird way because you get, I got kids running around and you rule with Burger King, you know. Yeah, yeah. So, so you sort of see that continuum of like the, you know, connecting is, and then, and then it goes to something, something deeper. But most, yeah, most, most, most people want to get, most creatives want to get to connecting. What, what, what, what's going, what goes wrong? Why is the work so bad? You know, like, what, you know, generally, there's, there's a population of, of, you know, both clients and agencies that are more, the responsive to different sort of stimulus and, and, and they really kind of are trying to tell it sort of a different sort of story there. There's a, there used to be this music, radio, it was a, it was a, it was a, DOW, Dow, Dow, Dow, Dow Carstereos, when I grew up in San Diego, I was Dow Carstereos, and they would get on the radio and they would say it, they would yell their name like 15,000 times during the commercial, right? Just really abrasively. And so, did you remember it? Oh, yeah, you did. Did I ever go there to buy a stereo? No fucking way. That was just a stereo, right? Yeah, it was just like, you know, and I figured that, and so there's a group, I guess, why is there, it's a good question because, you know, I'd sure like to take that business and make it better. But there are, I just think there's a ton of agencies that, they, they, they, they care about the money, they don't care about the work. It's a, it's a transaction. What do you do whatever they need to do? It also seems to me that the sort of like, this, the more people involved and the more steps that are involved, the sort of worse it gets. It's almost like you really want a client to buy an idea when it's really fresh. You know? Yeah. And it's almost like the more focus groups you do, the more meetings you have, the more like, you know, I don't know, it just seems that or the process itself, the longer it goes on, the more you wear people out, the more compromises that happen. And it seems to me like, like, what's happened to the Super Bowl? It seems like a big, you know, that's, something's happened there, like it's become so important that the fear of failure is so high. So it's become so formulaic. It's like, I think you said it, the fear of failure, right? There's a whole business wrapped up in trying to prove yourself right. You know, that both in focus groups and other kind of, you know, testing, you know, soon it'll probably be done even more mass sort of way, the way it'll work, but especially testing something that looks like it's the finished product because, you know, we always used to get away with, hey, it's just a storyboard. Don't worry. It would look better by the time we get there. Now that you can kind of prove the proof of concept is almost almost a practical film. You know, you learn a lot better, but listen, I, I saw David Fisher and he just got a bunch of feedback on Fight Club, and he was bombed, but he, he took, he took the feedback. And, and he made a lovely adjustment in the film that I think is still one of its most wonderful moments, but, you know, when they get the piano. Which bear was that? He tried to give it a little bit of lift and it was that, you know, you met me at a really strange time. The dialogue, everybody kind of grabs her hand and they're watching the buildings come down and he, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he kind of had to, to, to figure that ending out to try to lift it out of the darkness that it had fallen into. So it was, it was really interesting. And, you know, I've talked with all, you know, Mark Romantic about focus groups. So every, you know, the guys that use do films, they screen, and, you know, you think, you think that our clients are harsh on it. Just look at a, you know, look at a studio. They're fun. They're, they're brutal. And so you have to learn how to, to, to get the reactions, right? I do think getting good, fair reactions to your work is part of being an artist. You know, it's good to test your material. You know, it's good to, to know how the, the joke is landing and all that kind of stuff. So I never think we should, we shouldn't shy away from it. We should run toward it and be embraced it and be okay with it. But as long as it's done in a way that's respectful, and it's not like you were wrong, you need to change it. You know, I mean, all the other kind of things that kind of go along with those adjustments. Really, it's let, let the people that are doing it help, help them figure it out too. Don't, don't make it about punishing them or, or trying to prove, prove who's right. But there, there do come moments where it's sort of like, there's a famous isn't it the famous Disney execs with the Pirates, the Caribbean, Johnny Depp, we don't know who the hell he is. It's terrible, you know, just just not getting, you know, and then that becomes a dangerous. But there's something something, I mean, I think that, you know, to be fair, the risk is a very hard thing to, to, to win, because it's something you have to do, but yet at the same time, it's something that nobody wants to do. So you're, we're constantly in the middle of this risk continuum. And the great clients, I've had the experience with, took the risk and stride. They were sort of like, I'm aware of the risk and I'm willing to take it. And so let's do it. And I'm not going to let anybody on my team get afraid of it. And they encouraged like that kind of thinking, the ones that, you know, harder to work with or the ones that, you know, really felt almost frozen to make decisions because of that risk. And they constantly guided things back to a place where, you know, it was never going to be on your real, so to speak, because, you know, that there's just been too many cuts, so to speak, the death of a thousand cuts, so to speak. You know, there's, there's always that problem. But, you know, it is, it is a changing business. So, um, where do you stand on, on awards? You know, do you think, do you think the LA party, your career awards were like an absolute essential part of making up the ladder that, if awards hadn't existed, it would have been a lot harder. You wouldn't roll, do you see? Certainly at the time I was in the industry and, you know, when I got in, awards were, were how you made more money, you know, it was a creative person and you got more recognition. You can get jobs easier. So if you, that was just that way, right? You can go to good agencies and you can go to bad agencies to help them become good. So it was, it was all about the employment opportunities they gave you, not necessarily the trophies or anything like that. It was really how it worked out to the bottom line, if you asked me. So you guys shading power, right? Yeah, it's just dead, you know, and it helped me. So, you know, it was a part of what I had set out to do. I wanted to be in this business, you know, and I wanted to be good at it. And so that's how you had to prove it. Dude, is it true that creative directors got incentivized by the awards in some agencies? I know that for a fact. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Now it's good for you know what, but I never was to be like, say it, that I know that there are people that need to win a certain amount of awards for these holding companies and that's what their job is. But, but I was never given that, that is a, like I know, I know it was given no bonus by, by virtue of the awards I got. In some cases, I had to pay for myself, you know, I flew myself to Cannes on my own dime the first time I went there because the agency wasn't willing to do it. Yeah, yeah. And the work was going to show up there. So I just started, you know, saying, well, fuck, I want to, I want to be over there when the stuff is being shown. I need to be responsible for my own like, yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, we, you know, we had become our own brands in this business to some degree, you know. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I remember, I think more, more than ever. Now, yeah, I mean, I was, I taught like an at school, it's got to be five years ago. And, you know, these are kids at at school. And, uh, who's heard of Wyden Kennedy about 30% of them? They're all like following individuals, you know, like on Instagram, a designer of, you know, a photographer or whatever it's gone. It's not about, you know, they're not about the company. That's pretty interesting. So when you look out in the world, you know, if you're looking at, I always thought, I always thought one of the easiest things when we television, everyone was making, it was all about making TV ads. It was just to look at the look at what that was out there and then to say, okay, if we can just raise the bar a little, um, what's out there? Like, if we could be the five percent, I think that would be really, really good. And I remember, um, I remember things kind of got a little crazy when, when, uh, Crispin Porter was around, you know, doing this stuff. And I don't know, Jeff could be, I think saying something like, oh, we need to put, like, strange inserts and magazines and, you know, it's all changed and, you know, and they're sort of like the world like moving in a sort of advertising world moves, you know, you have got this thing that is, you know, TV commercials, but at the same time, you have all these other forces that sort of change, you know, if you look at Crispin, they sort of did things in a certain way. They played with digital in a certain way. They played with inserts. They played with media. I think that's probably like, not the other people. I think that's what they did really well. They went out there and they hacked into media that he wouldn't expect to carry the message and it figured out a way to carry it or, you know, they, they had their formulas, but they, I thought that, but I thought it was pretty interesting was, and pizza at particular, you know, they'd start doing ads about filling potholes and, you know, doing, and they wouldn't let pizza. It was about all these crazy machines that, you know, the drivers had to keep things warm and stuff like that. And it was really interesting because then they, you know, they almost developed products, right? And from my understanding, that's the, that's the, those same guys are the, the, the liquid death guys. I think some of those boys are the, the creative stuff from Crispin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a product, right? It's a, it's a funny product, right? And so, you know, I think, um, genius works in strange ways. Yeah, for sure. So, um, I guess my point was, I think, when I, when I was a bot, I think we always had these conversations about finding the creative bar, like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, and, and it just became really hot, you know, to, it was a bit, basically, my point was like, when it was just, when you're doing TV and you want it to be the five percent, that was easy. And then when it sort of like, you're just like, how do you know? And it can, it can, it just like, it just became a lot hotter to work things out. And then it became now where it's, you don't even see the stuff. It's true. Yeah. Well, you know, we're not sitting around watching TV every evening, you know, on our appointed shows that we want to watch and think of that. That's all done, that's all over with. But I still think these films, I mean, you know, the remember, the demise of the short films that we've been making most of our careers have been, you know, that we've been, it's like Mark Twain's thing, you know, that the rumors of my death have been greatly overexaggerated. I think that we, I'd still know that most brands, at some point say, "Can I get a film about this too?" You know, I need a film to explain this. And then there's, because I think we live in a visual world now, right? And people will expect to be communicated through a screen certain pieces of information, whether it's educational or emotional. And I think the brand is, you know, fairly prudent to try to develop that part of their repertoire so that they have something to share, you know, that starts to educate people. Now, you know, the good news is that there's other media now where we used to have five, now we have 35 and there's just more work to do. So, you know, weirdly enough, I don't think we necessarily are going to get kicked out of our jobs. I just think we've got to figure out how to work those other pieces and those other little cracks and, you know, crevices of, kind of, this kind of strange and somewhat exhausting media world that we're living in. But there's nothing like a great out of home board, right? There's nothing like a great, like I've seen some people almost play the retro card and they just go back and do killer print. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all it's like, wow, that's really interesting. You know, so, you know, maybe like vinyl will get these little throwback media, you know, assignments where we can kind of go do something kind of interesting for brand in a particular media that, you know, it's hard to get some people excited about. But, you know, I truly love to see, I look to see some of that stuff kind of backlight come. Yeah. Okay, so does there was a great, yeah, so, so, so, so, you know, a, you know, a message on the end kind of love that stuff. Yeah. It just seems that, yeah, I don't know, it's sort of weird. It's kind of, what do you, what do you think about this idea of when you, there's so much, do you think, do you think creativity is a, an applicable, how stretchy, how stretchy is it? Because I think it's always a good question to say, you know, if you're really good at TV commercials, are you, can I apply that to other, can it, is it applicable to other things? Obviously, that's a stupid generalization. Every, every creative is different. But, you know, you talk about like, can you, can you take someone who's a great writer and can they write a great movie? Well, you know, it's such, it seems like there's such a skill in advertising that is very specific. Yeah. Like a very specific, creative skill. Yeah, it's not like the, you know, I, I think it's sort of like personality. Should I have found that some people are just gifted TV people and some people aren't, aren't, and you know, some people are like radio, like, remember when we had to do that stuff? I mean, radio was the hardest thing to do. Yeah. And, and if you could do, I always hired people that did good radio. If I, if they had a great radio campaign, it was like, hire that guy because they, they know how to build decks, they know how to solve problems, they know what to think, you know, at a right shit. You know, I mean, they could really tell a story. And to me, you know, it's always been good radio, really good radio. Yeah, it's really, really hard to do. And, but then, you know, but what's the new how to think like that? To me, they started, they started using their mind and visualizing things because it's a visual medium. Right. And, and I always found it easier to then help people that could do radio because when it's a junior, you get a lot of radio assignments. Like that's, you know, shit rolled downhill, right? And so you would get these radio assignments and you would have to pop them out, you know, two or three a day and, and you start writing in that way, and you get in that world and you start realizing you're, you're, you're practically writing a script. And then you're, and one of the hardest things to teach in television is you're writing pictures. You're not writing, you're not, you should not try to write a voiceover, you know, in a TV act. You should try to think about it as what are you watching? What are they doing? What's, you know, what's the, who are these and what's their, you know, what's their conflict? And then how does that conflict get resolved, basically? And, and I think that, that it, it takes a while to go from some, some of the other mediums into that medium. And that, and that, you know, it was the one thing that I really appreciated about spending some early times at wide and then coming into good be, because good, when I got to good be, they hadn't quite nailed their, their TV language, right? It was like a, it was one of those agencies that had done a lot of fun low-tech television, you know, the Mill Valley Film Festival. They did some Honda stuff, something like that, but never really things that that had used. Like big lectures. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, why it was an agency that was like, you had to learn TV day one, you know, it was like, it was geared towards that, and incredibly visual TV, you know, the, the Honda ads that they did with like Lou Reed and things like that, at all, it all had kind of a pop culture take on life, you know, they, they always were good at, they'd going into culture, grabbing something and then using it in advertising, you know, that was kind of their thing. Yeah, they put that, you know, where the bugs don't end stuff and, yeah, Spike Lee, all that stuff, it was like, you know, they, they, they were constantly going to movies, just, you know, sucking up all this kind of information and kind of like, oh, we could, we could, and we could, and it was a, I think it really powered them, you know, in terms of their, they're, I think they had a really excellent film, IQ in terms of the way they put their stuff together, and I don't know if you've ever, ever with Davenport before, but like, you know, their producers are the, are the, are the best, they're just the best, you know, they, that's what someone told me, I thought it was really an interesting years ago was, was that it was the producers, the X factor because they were the ones that pushed you direct in talent, because the creatives would just go with the people. Totally. Yeah, yeah, that, that combination, you know, though, it's the one thing that, you know, as a writer, you, you got to learn how to do is like, once you get it done, it's, it's got to become other people's vision too. It can't just be in your head, right? You got to, it's got to get out and then other people's heads, they got to start working with it and, and starting to demonstrate things that, you know, in, in many cases, that take your idea further than where you did. I've always felt like the project has to get better at every stage, right? You get out of the agency and then it's got to get to the production company and then it's got to get on, you know, on screen. And if at every stage, it's, it's improving. And then you kind of look back and go, oh, that's kind of how I wanted it. It's even, but it's better. It was sort of how it's always worked for me. Like I always love walking out of set scared shitless, thinking it was going to be a complete catastrophe. And then walk off going, yes, this is going to be great. Well, it's interesting because you, I mean, you've worked with, you know, soon, I mean, I've come from the UK and I always felt that the work in the UK was very much the work of three people. I mean, obviously more than three people, but the creative team, the creative team were very open to the director in a way that I isn't always the case in the stage. Yeah, they got final card. You know, it's great. I mean, I, I think that the UK television was better than US television, you know, for a while, but at least the, some of the annuals that I was looking at when I was kind of coming up, I found his name Woodward. Again, if you can remember that game, Woodward, he wrote some of those beer ads, but they, they had a wit in their commercials that the US didn't have. And I think that they really brought a comedic sort of approach to things that I think once we caught on, it made Budweiser beer commercials better because of UK beer commercials. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That it was sort of one of those things, you know, I think that the, and then once every brand started playing on a global stage, you know, especially some of the bigger athletic ones and what have you, you know, it was all about getting a killer director to make something really wonderful. You know, you needed to invest in that production value alone, you know, you just can't, you can't replace it, you know, you, there's something about translating those scripts and getting onto the screen that if you don't make a great decision, you kind of fuck your job up. Yeah. And so the, the, the willingness, like a spike jurns, I mean, what a collaborator, what an amazing. Yeah, it's like one of a kind. Yeah, it was, you know, I'm just so fortunate that I had scripts that you entertained and then, and then, you know, over time, we became good friends and, you know, I just was a sponge all the time, you know, just just reading and, you know, and what the coolest moment was, he said on one of our earlier films, he just said, I don't, you can't sit over there, you gotta stand by me. You gotta sit over by me. And so like it was, you know, it was a really likes validation because it was like, don't, don't, you know, don't sit over it, watch them understand over here so we can talk about shit and, and, and work it out. And, um, we were shooting the, the Y2K spot for Nike where the, you know, the world does come to an end, yet this gentleman goes out for a run and, uh, we're literally on the second or last shot, maybe, you know, and, and I kind of go, cut, you know, something's weird, Spike, he's just kind of lonely, you know, every time I see him, he's just out there running past this crap and, you know, but, It feels like, you know, I think we could have someone else come by, another runner come by, you know, just go by your final shot and they'll just say, you know, hey, and he, he jumps up and he goes over, he walk over and he goes, and he looks at me and goes, how you doing? And I go, all right, and I go, so not much. And he, hey, how you doing? That's it. He goes and gets the, one of the grips and finds a sweatsuit stuff, stuff some in a sweatsuit and gets him to come on the set and he runs by our actor and in two takes we had it. And it made the spot to be fair. It really made the spot because now he, it was, there were more, right? There were more runners out there. It wasn't just one and then, and, and, you know, you got to, you always got to be writing, you know, you can't, you're writing on set all the time. And that's the, I love those. The stories of the, I mean, I love, my, my, my, one of my famous favorite spots is the, it's called the swimmer thing, the glute, Jonathan Glase Guinness. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they, they have this famous story about like they didn't cast the guy until the day before they like found him in a cafe. Right. You know, I just, that stuff is kind of like the whole improvisation of, and it's true. It goes back to the point we were talking about earlier where the, you got the people who are so buttoned down like they, oh, like, what do we test? You know, what was the thing? Yeah, right. And then you're like, it's, it may, it'll, you know, if you, if you've been on enough shoots, you know, that stuff happens that changes things and it usually changes things for the better. And if you watched enough movies and you've talked to enough movie directors or heard enough movie directors, the same thing happens in movies and movies are a lot better for that. It is. It is. And how it works is how actors really good actors do that. Exactly. And, and there's variations that you get. And in some cases, like I said, you didn't know in your mind how this person could act, but that actor starts teaching you how it could be acted. And then sort of out of the blue creates something for you and you kind of go, wow, I don't know if I were to wrote that, but that was beautiful. That was really cool. Like I, I connect with that. And I think that, you know, one of the things that both commercials do in short form does is that it's got to get to that thing. There's usually a moment, you know, there's something that happens two or three things that happen in commercials. And you know, you need to, you need to nail those acting moments and I don't know if you can focus group that shit to be there. I don't think you can. I think you can get to a general. I think it's okay. Like to me clarity is what I, I agree on. I say like, ask the group, what does this commercial say to you? Don't say did you like it because the moment you say did you like it? Nine times out of a 10 because it's a commercial. They're going to go, how much does it cost and where do you sell it? That's what I want to know. And you're like, what? That's not what we're doing here. You know, we're doing a brand ahead kind of thing. So, you know, you can't, you can't trust people that know nothing to carry something that you think has to be so worthy of their, you know, their emotional attention, not their rational attention. You know, people don't think too much when they're alone by themselves watching TV. And so, there's a, I think there's a miss there. You're asking somebody to explain something in a situation where they normally would never explain themselves. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're making it up. I still find focus groups so fascinating because they are such a weird glimpse into American culture, you know, it's pretty wild. I mean, I'm kind of glad they're there. They're ripe with material man. Oh, yeah. How many times have they, it's been, they've been used a few times in sports for sure. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. What, talk about a little bit about having your own, the difference between working for people and then working for yourself and how, because I'm talking, I'm just starting now, I've, I've done two conversations with brand new agencies now, one in Australia and one in, one in the UK. And now I'm, yeah. It's just the sort of this, obviously there's a lot like the whole idea of it's a business now and you got to run it and you've got your responsible for, for people and all that stuff. But there's also sort of like something about it's now yours. It's just, how is that work for you? It's, you know, it, it probably was the defining catalyst that got me to go do it. I mean, I, I, in many ways wish I would have done it much earlier, but I was in a really great relationship with Lee and, and we're having too much fun working together and I didn't want to cut it off because I was just enjoying it too much. And you know, there's tons of other offers that came in and I kept on saying, no, you know, I'm going to wait as long as I can. As we just for two, we were two, uh, peas in a pot, so to speak. And, um, the, uh, it was a financial thing that kind of set, you know, the fire in my belly because, you know, a client was told one thing and I told him another and all of a sudden my word wasn't good and, and, and created a problem. And he realized that it's your word. And so when you open your shop and you, it's your word now. It's not, it's not, you can't hide behind anybody else's word or anybody else's, there's nobody to bail you out. Man, it's you. And, you know, you, you've got to be good with your handshake. That means has to mean something. Yeah. And so, you know, you know, one of the reasons, and one of the reasons why when you start your own agency, you know, you probably shouldn't be terribly infatuated with the words. Hopefully you have, you have enough as you're working for other groups, but you realize, you know, I would rather keep in our director than in an award show. You know, I mean, the money becomes a lot more personal and it's, you know, it's all about the people. It's all about how they feel about coming to work. It's about, you know, you know, are they growing and stuff like that? It's a family. It's a business and a family, which is strangely too the most important things you have in your life and this, it becomes both of those things. And so it's an incredibly stressful decision, but it's also some of the most, one of the most important decisions that I think especially creative people need to make because, for far too long, it was the CFOs and, you know, account people that we're getting the $500 million to $20 million to, you know, $100 million paychecks. Creative praise water. Now, they were tossed aside. And so the best way to have sort of employment, you know, safety is to start your own shop is a creative person that you can't, you know, you can only quit on yourself then. And so I think it's a, I think every creative who's worth their salt should be thinking in the back of their head, at what point do I start my own shop? Because what clients are coming for is what I do. It's not, the CFO has nothing to do with what this agency makes. They just shuffle the money around. And they were somehow taken out, you know, taken the back door, a shit load more money than the creative people were. So to me, it was like divine justice. So we, that's how it started. My word was broken and I wanted to reset it and I wanted to work at a place where if I, if I said to the client, it was $8 million, it was $8 million. It wasn't $11 million. It was $8 million. And, you know, and so that's the way I was, the way Christian I run it is, it's a family business. And, you know, we're good for our word. Well, when we shake, we mean it. And I think that's been a really nice thing to say. Like, you know, when you're talking to your client, there's a problem and you need to solve it. You take personal responsibility for it. Yeah. And what about you, do you think the, I mean, I was sort of think agencies should they have a point of view? I mean, my favorite, my favorite agency of the world is one of my favorite agencies is Hal Henry, because I think they just, it wasn't just creatives. It was account people and very strong strap just. Yeah, they had great strategy. And I think that the agency had such a strong point of view. It did so much of the heavy lifting for them. It was like, if you know what your view on the world is and you think that advertising needs to be a certain way, that becomes a sort of automatic lens that you put through everything. I think it can be things so much easier. I think, you know, I've used that, that POV my entire career, like what's your point of view? Because I feel like if you can either build one for or find one within the organization, that there's this really strong point of view in the world or why, why they're there and what they're doing, that's the answer. I mean, that has always been the idea. It's like to me, the ideas aren't coming in from space. They're buried under layers of conversations and things that have happened within this company and the people that are there. Like to me, I'm so much more of an archaeologist than I am anything. You kind of go in there and you start peeling these layers back and then you say, "Wow, this was said. This was said." You know, you really start to figure out who they are. And having the point of view to me gives that meaning. I mean, you know, the, the, we're in a business where opinions matter and I think that by making sure that the brands you work for have really good opinions about why they're doing what they're doing. I think it gives them just so much more runway on either the products they want to develop or the audiences they want to go reach. And so, and it's kind of strange because, you know, over the last 10 years I've been working with more of the founders or the CEOs. And it's amazing how a lot of businesses are created out of more of a financial kind of standpoint. It was like, I don't know, we made it and started selling like fucking, you know, hot. We don't, we don't, it was like, I accident both of the closest design. Yeah, just like, you know, they some, some things just were like going and they hadn't even had time to really try to figure out what it, why they were doing it. And Aaron Levine was a sushi restaurant with us and we were talking about, he had invented this thing called box, you know, box, it's box.com and it's cloud storage, right? And his whole thing was you can use any device now to go get these files that you had because at the time we were living in a world where if you didn't use this device, it couldn't get into that file or the enemy and it was all, you had all these quote unquote walls. And, and it was really interesting. And it's like one of the, the most fun I have is when I'm sitting down with somebody who has started a company and can tell it's their baby and they just don't have the story yet. And then suddenly they say something, you go, stop, you just set it. Yeah. And they go, what? And I go, it's, you know, I, I was sick and tired of all the walls around it or walls were everywhere. I just wanted to get rid of all the walls and I went, that's it. That's what you're so, that's what you're doing. You're getting rid of walls. And it became without walls, box, without walls. And it was just one of those things where what's great about it too is that it's theirs. It's not right. Exactly. It's not like, it's not the time I don't even want to take credit. You know, it's like, okay, you know, I was in the room. But the, you know, I just have a keen ear for that kind of stuff. And you know, it's, it's, you know, hopefully it's where, you know, good relationships have been built because, you know, the, the brand, you know, in a sense is held by people. It's not, it's not, it's not an inanimate thing. It's, it's in people's minds and hearts and beliefs. And, and those, you know, and they, I think when you're dealing with people, people have points of view on things. We have opinions. And so brands will have opinions too. And, and I think that's why they name the agency opinionated for that very reason. You have an opinion. And I, and I agree with that. Yeah, yeah. So what do you find difficult? I mean, when you, what do you find like challenges with clients? I mean, there's a lot of people say they're sort of, um, I mean, I had this, I remember years, years ago when I did an interview with people at Martin Agency and they were saying, it's all psych, psychographies. It's all about finding the people who are the risk takers who are going to buy good work. It doesn't matter what category they're in. It's true. Yeah. It's almost like it's a mindset. It really is. In fact, you know, I think we're all probably better in exploring other categories. Because they're, they're, there's emerging stuff all the time. And, and sometimes the, you know, the, the, the, the idea of doing advertising those categories, you know, the, the good healthcare, for example, a lot of people went, oh, healthcare, you know, drug ads, all that kind of stuff. We make fun of them, you know, people make a ton of money doing them. But I'm, I was really impressed with the Pfizer and Lilly stuff that just came out. I think, I think those two companies are going, this, this, it's, it's Nike and Adidas, man. They're duking it out. And it's really fun to watch their advertising now. You know, they've hired decent agencies and, you know, they're great agencies and they're trying to do really good work and, you know, good for them. But they're going to make healthcare, which is by the way, the biggest industry growing, I think, in our country right now. They're going to make it cool. Yeah. You know, and I think if they do that, then we're all going to be wishing that, you know, we had thought of that first, you know. So I think getting into do categories, exploring B2B, you know, kind of accounts and things like that, it, it's the relationship first and foremost. And then the brand is the secondary thing that you have to figure out what to go do. And if you can have that relationship and then have that challenge and, and meet that challenge, I don't think, you know, people in our business have, have, you know, a thing to worry about. There's so many of those out there that are emerging. You know, I mean, and we also be a part of it. So it's a, there's tons of sense of stuff. And now the problem is, it's just that the access to some of those things are becoming harder. I've noticed. You mean from point from a pitching perspective? Yeah, exactly. You know, there's, there's, you know, there's, we used to get into, we used to get consideration, but we would get knocked out because of size a lot. Yeah. If we, if we weren't a certain size, we weren't going to be big enough. And and it really cost us about 10 years of sort of, you know, stagnation. You know, I mean, it was kind of like you can get up to a certain level, but it was hard to get over that, because you didn't necessarily have, you know, multiple offices or over 80 to 100 people, as if that was, you know, in the, in the cases. Yeah. Yeah. And, and to be fair, I was always a little afraid of having something becomes too, too ungangly because, you know, everybody I know big didn't get better. Usually, it doesn't right. This is sort of the limit on the right. There really, there is a cap. Yeah. Yeah. There's a cap. And, and, you know, you're, you're independent because you want to make your own decisions. And I think that, you know, our goal is never size. It was always quality of, of the work and of life. And, you know, it's, you know, I got to say it's been great because I've been able to stay in a city that I truly love and, and, you know, want to be a part of. And so, you know, I don't think I would have had that option if I chased, if I chased other things. And so, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, it's, it's been a good horse to ride on. And, but I do think that, you know, there's new challenges and the assignments are a little bit different. You know, I'm talking to people now half my age that are telling me what they want to do and what they think and you're kind of going kind of wondering, you know, how they have the, the goal. But at the same time, you know, respectfully, you know, there's, they have good ideas too. So, it's, you know, it's not, there's no monopoly on, on good thinking. I just think that you have to, you find the right chemistry in the, in the teams and the relationships. Like more than ever now, I just think it's really about meeting good people that, that are in those positions and, you know, figure out how to, how to help them with their business problems and stuff like that, improving your value to that, to that company. If there was a couple of pieces of advice you're given to, like, you know, there's a bunch of seasons or pretty experienced created people right now who are potentially could be doing their own thing. Yeah. There's a difference obviously between like, what, what, what, what would you say? The important things to consider are, if you're, if you're setting up your own thing, that you, what you wish you'd had that advice when you use that. Well, I'll pass on the best advice I've got. Don't, don't enter into a real estate deal early. Don't, don't, don't sign any lease agreements. Go month to month. Don't go, don't, real estate is the first thing that fucks up most or young organizations. Secondly, don't get any lawsuits. Like lawsuits are a money in time suck and they, they can really hurt you too. So, whatever you're doing in the, you know, the front end, try to, try to avoid, you know, the kind of stuff that, that, there, there used to be kind of lawsuits between agencies, right? You, you would leave an agency and then they'd throw a lawsuit on you because you left that agency and just to fuck you up. I mean, that's what they were doing. They would, they would give you, you know, a hundred thousand dollar tab right off the bat because you had to get a lawyer. Just, it's crazy. And so try to stay out. Leave, leave the, leave your former agency on good terms, go start your new agency. And then, you know, I think that the one thing that they all have to realize is that once it's yours, you know, it's not going to be, it's not going to be as a, the responsibilities will start to lie with you. And I think that that's no easy way to carry. But don't let it, don't let it ruin your, your vision on it. Like don't, don't, it's hard, yes. And it's going to be tough and there's going to be days you wish it didn't. But if you can hang on to it and you, and you, in your mind, you have something you really believe in that you're thinking you're really offering, stick to it because, you know, most times you can manifest that in a, in a really good way. Like, that's what I love about agency positioning. We were talking them recently because you know, some guys went to the small agency conference recently or chatting about stuff and the positioning statements that these agencies were using were genius. Really brilliant stuff. And I was going like, man, that is so smart because the way they could talk about their company now is, is a story now. It's not just two people, it's, but comes a story that story can become many people. Many people can tell that. And I thought that was really, it's really, it's a really great advice. Find that hook. You know, what are you there for? And, and if it's a good hook, that, that'll last you 20 years. A good hook. Well, you can, you can, you can, you can, you can, you can end up living on that. Finally, staying positive and secret, secret to staying positive. Enjoy it. If you don't like it, get the fuck out of it. You got to, you know, I always tell people that you, you got to like coming up with ideas. Making them is a whole different thing. Because you actually have to love coming up with them. And, and as long as you're okay with that, then, and every day is a good day. If you, you know, so I bought I always tell people, and this is something that John Robertson said to me in my first job, it'd be to Robertson. John said, "I wear them out with good work." I think that is the coolest thing you could say to someone, "Just go wear them out with good work." I think that is how we'll continue to be the cockroaches of the business world. The last company that A company wants to hire, but were the first ones they'd call up when they're pants are on fire. Yeah, yeah, sure. It's still a worthy challenge. I still think that we should go get an end-to-wear attract the brightest minds coming up through the universities and whatnot. It's the only job I know that you get to be an artist and a businessman at the same time. You can blaze your own trail. You're not working into a system that's going to provide a lot of constraints or barriers that down the road you might not necessarily appreciate. Yeah. Thank you so much. That was great. What a great conversation. Appreciate it. Oh, thank you.