Chuck Lorre on Surviving Sitcoms, Difficult Stars, Replacing Sheen, and Ghosting Scientology

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looks good to your cfo linkedin ads generates the highest row as of all major ad networks reach the right buyers with linkedin ads you can target by company industry job title and more so cut the bullspend advertise on linkedin the network that works for you spend two hundred and fifty dollars on your first campaign on linkedin ads and get a two hundred and fifty dollar credit for the next one just go to linkedin.com slash the town that's linkedin.com slash the town terms and conditions apply it is wednesday october twenty eight back when i started covering hollywood i was told to be a little afraid of chuck lori he was considered prickly old school and angry guy on the shows that he ran as lead executive producer and there were many these days even the most prolific tv showrunners make ten to twelve episodes of his show as lead executive producer and there were many these days even the most prolific tv showrunners make ten to twelve episodes of his season maybe less for a streamer if that streamer even makes comedies and if you're lucky and you're good you get a second show teed up back to back chuck lori in his heyday in the two thousands and two thousand tens he had four shows running at once and these were classic multi-cam sitcoms twenty two episode seasons juggernauts like the big bang theory two and a half men young sheldon mike and molly mom any one of which would set a creator up for life lori had the life changing hit over and over again going all the way back to his writing days on roseanne creating grace under fire darman greg and sybil shows were lori earned a reputation for being able to deal with especially difficult talent people like roseanne barr and tom arnold brett butler sybil shepherd he also made stars out of unknowns like jim parsons melissa mccarthy jenna elfman many more all while maintaining that reputation as the dreaded difficult with the capital d railing against critics sometimes a network exec sometimes even in his vanity cards that are shown at the end of episodes and the television academy as well he's won only one emmy in his career for producing the kaminsky method on netflix which is kind of unbelievable truck now says he's mellowed with age and in the grand tradition of hollywood figures he's written a memoir called sitcom where he admits he handled many situations throughout his career somewhat poorly he takes some shots at les moonves scientology charlie sheen who he's reconciled with he says initial hesitation about casting anna ferris and mom was justified lots more so today is chuck lori and the secrets of one of the most successful tv showrunners of all time from the ringer and puck i'm matt bellany and this is the town okay we are here with chuck lori tv showrunner writer producer director philanthropist and now author welcome chuck lori thank you i gotta compliment you 200 pages like down and dirty all the stuff you wanted to say no fat it's like a good 22 minute sitcom i do uh i do uh speak in a truncated form as a result of all 22 minute sitcoms yeah a lot of others in the industry could learn something from the way you did your memoir but that's another show i wanted to have you on because i read your book and i'm listening to the acquired episode about the business of seinfeld right now and i'm thinking back it got me kind of nostalgic for the more fun days of television and it really was more fun i think back in the day when there were so many shows there were 50 comedies and tv was more of a horse race there were morning ratings every day you knew who was up and who was down who had pressure on them and all those things still exist now and the streamers keep all that data to themselves so we don't see it as much but i think people kind of thrived off of it in a weird way and i want to know from your perspective whether first of all you agree with that and secondly what your best and worst experience is with kind of ratings driven motivations in tv and how you operated knowing it was a horse race every morning after you aired a show the landscape of the nielsen ratings the morning after the overnights and whatnot and the nationals and the and the demos you know the demographics that the insistence on 18 to 49 sure for some reason that group was more valuable to the networks right uh it's the only it's the only uh system i am aware of i i grew up in it basically so i i don't know i had nothing to compare it to right simply was the way things were and it created a lot of anxiety it was thrilling if you were on top you know it was a extraordinary thing to get a phone call at 7 a.m from the president of warner brothers peter roth going did you see these numbers you know and the numbers are the numbers i i would assume profit both to the network and to the production company of course and you you introduce a new character on an episode and then you get immediate feedback the next day you know they tuned out at minute 16 after that episode aired that person that you just introduced we didn't get that kind of information as to whether there was two now but if your ratings were on a slide over week after week after week you certainly were aware of it and uh and you and i believe the proper response was panic right just panic across the board what do we got to do what do we got to do and it sort of drove everyone crazy in a way that you don't see these days and i know that you've been asked about this a lot the crazy people that you worked with over the years everyone from rosanne to brett butler sybil i feel like that has changed you can't be that crazy anymore am i right or am i wrong or at least you can't express it the way that people once did yeah it never made sense to me i mean and in retrospect it's baffling that it wasn't it should have been a constant celebration right that when you had a hit show like you're on the number one show number one show you know 40 million people a week in real time no dvrs yeah vcrs had just started no one knew how to program them so people were actually watching what you did in real time 40 million people every week it was astonishing and you would think that would uh that would generate joy but it generated a lot of anger and fear and a very strange response to what should have been an absolute celebration of success well but you wrote in the book about how success only exacerbates the way people are and because the business is so hit and miss and anxiety inducing and in praise on insecurities that when you do hit it just makes it all worse well if hitting if you think having a success is going to make you a genuinely happy person you're in for a terrible surprise you know i mean a successful you know when a cannibal becomes successful he's still a cannibal yeah i mean that's one thing about your book that's interesting is that for a lot of your years of success you were pretty miserable yeah why and what changed i think we were all promised this growing up that if you can make something of yourself then everything will be fine you'll have a good life you'll be happy you'll be content you know um the american dream and that's you know while success is wonderful it should never be denigrated it's simply not true that it it uh is some kind of panacea it's not but what changed what made you happy because you say you're happy now the happiness comes and goes okay i wouldn't claim that happiness is a state of being um you know happiness is uh you know um playing with the dog you know a solid bowel movement that's you know it comes and it comes and goes um i i think what i could claim that more often than not I'm grateful. That's something you can choose to be. You can choose to be grateful for all the luck that's coming my way and extraordinary people that have come along that have helped me along the way. You can be grateful for your health. You can be grateful that you're vertical. I still have hair. You know, there's a lot to be grateful for. There's a lot to be grateful for. You've got great hair. And I think that's a better goal than happy. You were known in the business. I remember when I started, you were known as a prickly guy. You had the dreaded D, the difficult moniker. And I don't know if that was accurate or not. I know everybody at Warner Brothers was afraid of you. I know everybody was, you know, you had a lot of power at the time. You had four freaking sitcoms on the air at the same time. And by the way, did you drive around or get driven around in some like command center van at one point so that you could multitask on all your shows like while you were driving? Is that true or is that not true? Getting driven around saves me like eight hours a week. No, no. But wasn't it like a van where you had like a computer and you had all sorts of things in the van? Or is that totally wrong? No, no. A long time ago, I was trying, I tried, I bought this, this like SUV in the hopes that I could work. Sure. Because I spent two hours every day on the freeway. And if I'm in the backseat of a. Of a, of a, of a, of a SUV and I have my laptop and I can, I can work. Yeah. Well, I picture you like firing off directions like cut that joke, add in a guest star, all these things. No, no. That's charming, but no. No, the whole point of that was, was to recapture two hours a day that were otherwise we spent on the 101 freeway doing absolutely nothing except getting aggravated. Sure. Sure. Although maybe that would lead to good comedy, but yeah. No, no. Traffic doesn't lead to comedy. Traffic leads to a nervous breakdown. Right. You do say in the book that you regret some of your professional interactions and relationships with the people that you've worked on, on the shows. Give us an example of that. Give us some, something that, you know, you really regret and maybe that you, it took you years to kind of come to terms with, or maybe not. You just kind of forget about it. You know what? Regretting my. My past is, is a waste of time. Oh, it is. You don't, you don't, isn't that what therapy's for? Regret is an attempt to change the past. You know, and, and that doesn't, as, as we well know, that's impossible. Yeah. You can own the past and learn from it and try and be better. Certainly, I, you know, I, that was part of what happened in the writing of this memoir was owning the bad behavior, owning the poor choices I made. And, and, uh, recognizing that, uh, I, that was the best I could do at the time. You know, Roseanne has a new show. She's shopping. There could be a collaboration. Is there an amount of money that you would accept to work with Roseanne again? That's a terrible question, man. That's just a loaded, venomous question. It is a loaded question. But she, she does have a new show and she is one of your most famous collaborators. Um, no, no. She's not. She was never. My collaborator, she was my boss. Okay. That's fair. I didn't collaborate with Roseanne. She was the biggest star in the world. Yeah. And she earned that, you know, she had created that standup that was just flawless and original and truly, truly funny. She was the woman who, who summed it all up for parents everywhere. When she said, now I know why animals eat their young, um, it's still funny if you know, 45, 50 years ago, but it's still funny. It's perfect insight into the difficulties of raising children. Um, so no, not a collaborator, uh, a boss, um, an icon and, uh, and difficult. Yeah, sure. No question about it. Yeah. You criticize in the book, Carsey Werner for kind of not doing anything to curtail the bad behavior on some of their shows. And yet I was struck by later in the book when you are the boss and you have to deal with this stuff from, you know, not necessarily their perspective as the owner of the show, but being the boss, did that change your perspective on dealing with this kind of talent with the difficult star? I know that at the time I, I, at the time I mistakenly confused Marcy, Carsey, and Tom Werner with, with being my, my loving, nurturing parent. That, that they were going to, they had my back. Right. And that was very naive. That was very childish of me. In retrospect, what they had was an uncanny sense of how to have a huge success in television and make tons of money. That was their, that was their priority. Their priority was not nurturing and coddling a TV writer, sitcom writer. I just mean when you later acquired the kind of power that they had over their shows on your shows. Did you consciously say, I'm going to operate differently than they did? Or did you sort of learn the ropes of television and say, okay, this is how the key to success in television is making sure that that star is happy? Absolutely. People are tuning in to see the star of the show, not the writers. Let's be really clear on, on the hierarchy of, of, of television or, you know, film really. People are coming to, to the event to see that actor. That actress. Um, and, uh, so that they, they have, uh, all the leverage in the world is there. Not, not with the writers. The writers, as I point out in the book are fungible. You can throw them away and get new ones. The audience won't care unless it's in a sense, severe drop in quality. They won't, they won't even notice. Although there is an exception to the rule and you proved it on two and a half men can be going with a new star. 10 years into the show or eight years into the show and it worked when was when did you know that was going to work here's the things i knew i had i had john cryer i had kinshata farrell melanie linsky angus t jones holland taylor i had a really wonderful rich incredibly talented cast and a fan base that that had loved them that yes people loved them and um and i had uh an extraordinary writing staff and uh so when you meet ashton kutcher you're immediately taken with you know he's an extraordinary human being you know he has immense charisma and and he's also very experienced actor he has real chops he absolutely knows how to perform in front of an audience which he proved on that 70s show a very very skillful and a really nice man so we did uh 88 episodes i think four more years with ashton and and we and we did what we which which should what should have been always happening was we had a good time even though less moonbed said there will be a two and a half men on the fall schedule figure it out that's what that that was the motivator but once we accepted that once i accepted that this show was going on with me or without me that you know i i always likened it i think i wrote about it in the book that at that moment i flashed on that little guy in tiananmen square standing in front of a tank and i just imagined that that was me and the tank was mr moonves and he was going to roll over me sure in order to get the show on television again and uh and i didn't want that to happen without me so uh i remember calling my partner on the show lee aronson one night and saying let's try let's just try if we fail it's you know it's not it's not the end of the world but let's try and keep the show going and uh we we tried initially we were going to try and do this with uh you grant that didn't play out passed on 750 grand an episode you say yes he did which is actually you know i i think is a testament to the the artistry of the man he he just didn't think it was right for him the money was irrelevant he just wanted to do what was right for him 88 times 750 not bad yeah it's a lot of money um but um you know i think you should get you should mr grant deserves a lot of credit for following his heart not his wallet there must have been a little bit of a finger like charlie you're gonna blow up our show we'll we'll show you we can we can get past this because i remember covering those days when every night it was a new episode of the charlie sheen show on youtube and you just we never we were sitting around the holly reporter newsroom being like what in the world is he gonna say tonight and often he was going after you yeah i mean it was pretty mean and unprecedented at the time we didn't we had never seen that because the stars were not previously able to go direct to the audience and do a talk show from their living room when this was every night so you must have had a little bit of added motivation there to keep that show going success is it has a certain reward yes no question about it and it was it was a really difficult difficult couple of years yeah yeah i imagine uh i know have you ever power ranked your badly behaved stars like in your head do you have a ranking i'll leave that to you well i mean charlie's got to be number one right i mean just just the way he blew the whole show up i'm not going to sit here and do the list with you something you can do on your own time sure okay greg and i will do it on our own time yeah absolutely i go for it the epic film la bola negra is now playing in theaters awards watch proclaims it's the best film of the year winner of the people's choice award at the toronto international film festival and best director at can la bola negra is the great sweeping romance of the year starring breakout actors guitarrica de la fuente and carlos gonzalez with penelope crew and glenn 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down um but when when i went when i when i went to when i went to cast her on mom there was no pushback okay okay but there was a lot of pushback on obviously john and melissa mccarthy right uh christine baranski i mean ridiculous pushback on some of the most talented people of our time do you keep in contact with less i have not no i have not i saw him i believe recently i saw him at a funeral funerals are happening a lot more uh i know it's depressing you say in the book you refer to what's going on with the parent company of your studio warner brothers and the network that has aired a lot of your shows cbs they are now merging you describe that as larry elson's kid was banging mommy that's your way of getting around talking about this merger but you got to have an opinion about this because part of your success over the years has been that your studio was selling to the network and that competition and that competition has been selling to the network and that competition has been selling to the network and that competition has been selling to the network and that competition has been selling to the network arms-length relationship allowed your shows to be worth so much money and you and your creators and your talent to share in that success and the more things consolidate the less success is shared with people like you doesn't that bother you a little bit no no you have to remember i i came to warner brothers when they were merging or being no there's been a lot of mergers being wrapped around by aol right okay and then a few years later it was time warner and then it was uh at&t warner and then it was warner brothers discovery and now it's skydance warner brothers the truth of the matter is none of those none of those transitions and ownership corporate stuff really affected what i do for a living you know my my job my job remained exactly the same no matter who owned the company my job was to try and make a show that that caused laughter that was it i get that i just feel like that you are in a particularly unique situation in that the shows that you have created or co-created represent a lot of the value of warner brothers television which is a big part of this 110 billion dollar merger and it's not like the other mergers because they are merging directly with the network that aired a lot of those shows sure and sure eventually i guess it's it's not a problem for you it's more a problem for the next generation and you've talked about this as well i mean the the run i i've used this analogy before but you're almost like tony soprano when he says i feel like i got into this thing at the very last moment you are kind of like that there is not there will not likely be another chuck lori doesn't that bother you or maybe that would be maybe you love that i i i think i think you're off on that i really do okay tell me why well for starters i came i i i lucked into being in this business at exactly the right time exactly the right time uh i got a chance to make shows got a chance to to to make a show again after i'd failed the first time with a pilot like like the big bang theory right my career was almost over when i managed to make you know a show called two and a half men i i had so many opportunities yeah this was the last show on your deal your warner's deal was expiring and they were likely not going to renew it was a deal that was causing incredible pain and hardship for the executives who made the deal until two and a half men happened and suddenly all all was good in the world they're geniuses yeah the who owns the company and and and how that stuff works you know i i must say that one one uh one time that it really did make a difference was uh david zaslav was a huge fan is a huge fan of sebastian maniscalco as many many people are he's an enormously successful stand-up world zaslav ran warner discovery and and and zaslav was a real champion of of making it a show starring sebastian and that's how i got to do bookie that's how i got to do book i just feel like the uh the analogy is more for the general sitcom genre which isn't over but it's breathing some last gasps when i started it was 40 50 of these things a week i know they're on they're on four out to eight o'clock to ten o'clock every night maybe four nights a week and so what is that you know that's 16 episodes a night times four now there's what four or five across all of them there's four or five sitcoms and do you think that's forever or do you think it will take someone to come along and reinvent the genre and that could bring it back i've seen it happen before i mean okay before the cosby show they were writing the eulogy for the sitcom okay and then the cosby show happened and suddenly the the genre was unbelievably hot everybody was chasing so we need the modern version of cosby minus the quaaludes and uh well the necro the uh the necrophilia or whatever the fuck that was um yeah and i don't think it's about reinventing as you put it you know reinventing the form of something because let's remember cosby show didn't reinvent any form it was just really good it was just really well written and it was and it was it was just a joy and it what happened is was so good and so successful it created an opportunity for michael j fox and family ties sure and and it and cheers was the benefit and then night court you know thursday night on nbc was just awesome and then different landscape now it's just not you know you can't there's no such thing as a lead-in until there is okay until there is you know and and and maybe that might happen somehow it's just people don't understand that young people that listen to the show they don't understand that ecosystem and how hits beget hits and well one of the terrific things that happened with young sheldon as a result of it being on netflix and a huge audience on netflix was a lot of the young people who were watching it on netflix a lot of the young people who were watching it on netflix and a huge audience were watching it on netflix and a huge audience were watching it on netflix and a huge audience were watching it on crazier was they didn't know what cbs was it wasn't in their ecosystem yeah there's also an answering machine in the pilot of two and a half men sure that dates it a bit doesn't it quizzical for some people yeah what the fuck is that all right before we go i am a i am a scientologist ologist and i was shocked about your tenure in the church and the fact that you said that you just walked away and they didn't harass you and they didn't care that you left they don't chase you when they don't chase you when you're broke is that true though nobody chased it's that was my experience to me it was see you goodbye even when you found success they didn't uh rediscover you they tracked me down about 25 years later and and called me and said come back and how did that conversation go all right i said uh you're very clever for finding my home phone number good for you never call me again and i hung up and they called me again so no way yeah and and a few more a few more of those exchanges and then it stopped and jenna elfman you say that that you had a situation with her when she referred to you as a blown scientologist which is someone who's left the church and that happened later after the show that was never an issue when you were making darman greg no no it wasn't no figure okay yeah i know it seems like that they would have communicated that to her um last question what makes a good writer's room beyond funny people what makes a good writer's room like the chemistry is it the the rigor is it whoever's overseeing it is it the pressure what is it well you know it's like a boy i hate baseball metaphors and analogies and whatnot but there are guys and women in a writer's room um who are scrappy and can you know and scratch out an infield single and there's there's a couple in in every good writer's room that can you know knock one over the fence and hit the long ball and there's guys that are just good at defense you know i mean they're just they're just not going to let any ball get past them so if you have a a deep writing staff for me is is a room where they're there's a variety of people who have different strengths so it's casting in a way it's casting yeah i i don't need you to tell me you don't need to break the story i'll figure out i'll i know how to break the story i'll find someone we can break the story i need you to do what you do spectacularly well and and here's a platform to do what you do well and that's and that's different with each you know writers are are very you know um specific characters damaged in very different ways and they bring different ideas to what's funny and and uh and there's and there's people that i've been fortunate enough to work with over the years um just off the top of my head bob smith don foster eric kaplan who who just you you sit in the room and you can't believe that a human mind could get to where they could go that they have they can leap across linear thinking and come up with something entirely original and it's it's thrilling to be around it it's thrilling to be around it and and to maybe try and try and emulate it but it's it's it's a genius that uh it's a it's a wonderful thing to be around when you when you when you're lucky enough to be around it so you're not worried about ai taking over tv writing what would what would it accomplish if i was worried i don't know pretty influential guy in the tv business i i'm worried about my prostate matt i'm not worried about ai aren't we all i know i know uh well i appreciate the time the book is excellent it's very fun i wanted more you need to do another one wanting more is a good thing and it is really more about his his aunt evelyn jesus and i liked your annotated scripts you put a bunch of scripts from your shows in there with commentary on them and it was it's fun to see what you cut and why and it's it's cool i like it thank you very much thanks for coming on the show appreciate it bye okay we are back with the call sheet craig i've been sending you instagram videos and such of the new fast and furious roller coaster at universal studios has that not intrigued you enough to want to go ride it not quite yet but i think when i have a 10 year old i'll be in that zone you're gonna come i honestly i i know people where we can get in and ride it and leave and you don't have to spend much time at the park at all you know the only time i've only been to universal studios once and it was when the super bowl was in la in 2022 the nfl media party was they shut down universal studios for the nfl media so that was the only time i've ever been and it was and it was very fun that's probably a best case scenario you can just hit the rides and no wait and then get out i hope they do it again super bowls in la again this year they really should all right so i read i mentioned the parks because the list just came out today of the most visited u.s theme parks and these are 2025 numbers by i believe the theme park association or whatever the trade group is number one obviously disney world 17.8 million visitors that was down 0.2 percent from a year before essentially which to be expected you know theme parks are a harbinger of the economy economy is sort of not great right now florida in particular has a lot of international travelers and people not super enthused to come to america these days for obvious reasons um disneyland in anaheim was up 0.4 percent 17.4 million so almost on par with the magic kingdom in florida and up a little they do they have a different mix there they do a lot of discounting for locals that gets the attendance numbers up there at disneyland but universal had some problems universal florida was down 2.1 percent for the year to 9.3 million viewers and universal hollywood was down eight percent year over year to eight million and i think there's a lot of reasons for that there was not a new roller coaster or ride at universal last year they had some bad comps from the year before when they had the new super nintendo world that drew a lot of people these parks are often like super mario you mean what did i say super nintendo oh i think super mario land yeah i don't know craig come on what do i look like you're the expert i don't know nintendo glossary here sorry sorry so my my prediction is i think disney is pulling away here and i think it's going to be a lot of fun i think it's going to be a lot of fun i think the numbers we have seen so far this year for theme parks suggest that it's going to be rough for universal when next year's numbers come out and my prediction is that universal is going to drop next year even though they have a flashy new ride at universal studios hollywood are these studios like expected to add a ride each year like other than like what is that just a ride they do they do something disneyland celebrates its anniversary every five years they have new parades and that jesse producer jesse is a theme park guy you know what they do they have different attractions that open and you know come back and new parades and all these things to draw in viewers they do discounting to get people in the door the interesting thing about a fast and furious ride is i feel like these rides or these lands or whatever they take so long to build that when you decide to make it you have to hope that the ip is still relevant and loved years after making the decision and fast and furious now i'm like is anybody getting super excited for that you know it's still pretty iconic you get vin diesel out there although i heard vin diesel no showed the opening of the fast and furious ride which uh yeah not great but you know they're building an avatar land in anaheim and are people going to care about that in five years i don't know um you know the the theme park business is fascinating we should honestly do more on it but i do think that the numbers that universal gave for the third quarter where their revenue was down 0.4 percent in the quarter that encompasses summer not great especially since they have this shiny new park in florida epic universe that i think is doing fine but maybe not given the the return that they wanted and honestly economic stuff the the broader economy really impacts these parks does anyone care about this i know you don't uh again once i have children i'll probably be locked in on this data either you're going to be locked in on this data or you're going to be locked in on this data yeah when you have children you will be into it or you will become a disney adult like producer jesse sure and you will care very much about this stuff all right that's the show for today i want to thank my guest chuck lori producer craig horlbeck artist jesse lopez and stefano sanchez and i want to thank you we will see you one more time this week this episode is brought 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