Christopher Feran: Post Harvest and Green Bean Specialist

[Music] This episode is brought to you by the future. Only had experts look into the future, which is totally possible by the way, and then report back about what things will taste like when we get there. Learn about bold ideas, the dawn of DKF and the rise of fiber in the future of TASER report on Oatley.com. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the coffee show. I feel like I've been spoiling everyone these last few weeks, and the trend just continues here with none other than Christopher Farron of Aviary and Hinderland. Coffee, welcome to the coffee show. Hey, thanks for having me on. Yeah, absolutely. We got about 30 seconds in before I realized I didn't record on this this software that I have to use. I've got to press record on three different things. It's a lot to keep up with. But the people that don't know you, you're one part of what you do is that you're a post harvest and processing consultant. Sort of on the green, green buying. And could you explain to our listeners a little of what that is, the other things you do and who you are? Yeah, I talk about my consulting work as kind of being full stack consulting. So everything from the green side at origin all the way through to final service, if need be. Most of my clients are large-scale roasters in the US, and I buy on their behalf and run their quality control. I also do work at origin with exporters and producers helping to improve quality as well as practices surrounding a lot integrity sampling protocol, things like that. Doing what I can to improve the value that a producer gets for each harvest season. What would you say is like how much coffee would you say a week? Oh, sorry. What client of yours is the biggest and how much coffee do you think they go through per week? Like how what scale are you sourcing? Well, I can't name names. I'm under NDA from from everyone. This this year my my book is a little smaller. So last year I was responsible for 40 to 50 containers of volume over the year. And this year it's a little closer to 20. So scaled scaled back a little bit to focus on some other things. So if you don't know a container is equivalent to about 40,000 pounds or between 270 and 320 bags of coffee. So these are large-scale roasters, probably six three to 4,000 kilos a week of roasting volume. Wow. And yeah, I'm really fascinated by this end of the coffee industry because obviously it's something I'm so you know in my day to day it's attached from. And one of the guests that I had recently here his name was Jack Alleysey. So he works for the Nomad coffee group over here. And sure he he's in charge of sourcing 100 tons of coffee a week, which is sold to you know a bunch of a bunch of different brands under that. And they also contract roast out. It's just like it's just absolutely mind boggling them the numbers he worked with here. I had some other questions but I just want to stick on this for a moment. So in the last like I guess two to three years as all of this turbulence I guess you call it has happened in the commodity market. What are some of the things that what are the some of the challenges that you're navigating in this field? I mean I have been telling everybody that I miss I long for the the cute shipping disruptions that we had during COVID, which is just you know kind of a right way of just saying that it was the hardest year I've ever had in my 15 years as a coffee buyer. When the market was a two dollars everyone knew it was too cheap right it wasn't sustainable or profitable for producers. But no one really expected it to sustain above three dollars the way that it has over the last two years in a bit. And coupled with that we had shortages of supply here in the US the markets remain inverted which means you couldn't fall back on spot coffee if you didn't forward contract enough. In addition to that we had we dealt with a number of defaults because the market would rise during the purchasing cycle so we might have said our our contracts before everything went to four dollars and then suddenly producers are like well wait a second the market went up by a dollar which is understandable and just that that creates a scenario where you either have to pay more accepted default find alternative supply chains and then of course throw into the mix tariffs and it was yeah it was a really really really challenging year which is one of the reasons of course that I have scaled back my my purchasing. Yeah and I'm interested in the tariffs aspect of this as well because that's obviously something that they get applied on other countries but it's really US importers that pay it so right right what was coupled with all of the you know shipping delays let's just say then the market conditions that push the prices up and then you know the the ultimate cherry on top some good old tariffs what what what what like what did tariffs in particular do like I don't have like not putting my own political view on it at all but like I'm wondering what what's the impact on the on the business owners in America? Sure yeah so the green coffee association of America is the the body that essentially determines how coffee contracts are settled and if there is any sort of you know arbitration that has to occur we follow their guidelines and their rules and essentially they had a ruling very early on that importers had the right to pass on 100% of those tariffs to the roaster customer so essentially that that passed down to every roaster that purchased coffee it was I would say more than impacting our bottom line in the US it really impacted the purchasing cycle and the planning cycle of coffee if you think about it most of the world was subject only to a 10% tariff which wouldn't have mattered so much except that the FOB prices went from $3 to $4 24 30 in a single year and so with the tariff being applied on top of that that does compound the effects of that high market as well as the financing costs but then you had Brazil which was going to face a 50% punitive tariff and we saw the lowest amount of exports to the US from Brazil between August and October because of that tariff so ultimately I think it's going to catch back up now that we do have the exemption as of November 3rd but it's going to take probably another six to seven months before the market actually stabilizes and supplies are sufficient at I see monitored stocks. What does stabilizing mean to you because like does that mean the sea price going back down to like $3 to stay in the twos like what would it stabilizing mean. Most of the folks that I've spoken with think that the market staying between 273 and 320 would be a healthy level for pretty much everybody in the supply chain everyone could make money. The problem is that there is a liquidity crunch right now because the market is so high. Margin calls are very high and so there are literally billions of dollars of cash being tied up in margin maintenance on these futures positions that pretty much every importer opens and as a result buying activity is down and because buying activity is down it limits our ability to actually bring bring stocks to the US and to Europe and to other places where I see does monitor these warehouses and so I think dealing with our our backwardization is going to require fixing the liquidity crunch that we're facing now. Yeah it's so interesting that I think there's so many things that you know for good reason the common coffee connoisseur the common man drinking coffee or people were even working within like specialty coffee probably don't understand how that side of the industry works and I put myself in that boat as well like it's very far into me so I'm always interested because it's you know obviously moving into some of the largest amounts of coffee in the world but very interesting to know and I'm sure we'll get through a lot more of that throughout the podcast. One thing I did want to kind of ask you about starting off the podcast is the civil war that broke out within you know the roasting community last week because of one of the guests I had on this podcast which is Scott Rao and this is the first podcast I've recorded since that happened and I was I got a sales really quite surprised by the level of you know I can understand people disagreeing but I kind of felt like a lot of vitriol was coupled in there as well and in a way like you know I'm always for disagreement but I didn't get a lot of contending evidence I thought and you're someone that publicly disagrees with Scott Rao and you do it in an eloquent way and he speaks very highly of you he suggested I get reached out to you for this podcast actually and and I like I just feel like for whatever reason I think he said something like a decade ago and it's just stuck with people people just people just don't like him personally and they forget about his commitment and contribution to roasting so yeah what what what what did you think of all that yeah I you know I do I do cut Scott as a friend and he has been a mentor to me I've known him for a long time and yeah we do we do disagree quite often and I think that it's important that we figure out ways to have those disagreements even with people that we are friendly with to to better serve the interests of the industry or whatever it is our work actually is but with someone like Scott you know he was one of the earliest and most influential voices not only just the roasting side of of the equation but also brewing and and cafe practices and so it's it's not necessarily unexplained. that when Scott comes and presents a point of view, which he does in, he presents his opinion in a highly authoritative way, that there will be people who disagree with him or who don't like him because they don't like his platform or they perceive that he only elevates certain voices, like all criticisms that can be talked about. But I think we're in an era of social media and the internet where the level of vitriol is just very, very high and there's no way to actually engage in these conversations in a thoughtful way. And frankly, his evidence is essentially anecdotal. It's based on his experience, but it's difficult to argue with that. I have found different things, for example, with sorting. I don't sort as aggressively as he does. I don't think it necessarily impacts the cup in the way that he, and others might posit. I think that there are problems with using color and the way that he does, but that's okay. We can talk about that. I can do what I do. He can do what he does. And I'm going to share my findings and my beliefs just as well as he does. And he has every right to do that. I think the problem is that it crowds out conversation and it actually crowds out voices for other people who might wish to contribute just because we were so fixated on demonizing one person, and rather than engaging with the ideas. And I don't know. But I think it's something that I struggle with. I am a creator as well. Every time I publish a blog post, I know that they're going to be people who come after me. Every time I open my mouth, I know that there's going to be something people have to say. And that's just a risk that we have to take on and be willing to accept. But once again, if you're if your interest is genuinely in advancing the conversation, that's just the discomfort that we have to roll with and face it head on. Yeah. And I think the main claim from the podcast that people disputed was around air roasting versus sort of using a drum roaster. Sure. I think a lot of people took, perceived it as he just flat out things that, you know, one thing's better than the other. And I think he pointed like in a way he kind of suggested like you'll get these results by more often using an air roaster and these results by using a drum roaster. And it's obviously it's very hard to disprove if anyone disagrees right. But I mean, if I put my, you know, I can't speak for America or I can't speak for anywhere else. But in Australia, like I don't actually know that many roasters commercially that use an air roaster or a drum roaster. So it's very hard to compare. And on the brain. And I can run bodies like all over Australia. That's an aeroster. Is it? Yes. That's gas at all. I mean, they use gas. It's not electric, but it is an air roaster. So it's. Laura has also an air roaster. I'm a fs is an air roaster. I mean, you can't have. Doesn't Lauren use infrared burner to heat the drum? Nope. Or am I thinking of what's that other one? Dietrich Dietrich. Dietrich Dietrich. Yeah. Which is a, I would consider that a drum roaster, even though it is quite radiant. But yeah, I mean, you've got different, different categories of air roasters with there. It's a fluid bed style, like, like with a civets. Or you have a tangential roaster, which is pretty much everything else, some have research. You know, there's a certain level of irony around this, because I used to work for a big roaster that uses the Lauren, and who used to do the profiles for it? Scott Rauer. Yeah. Like, like a lot of people in Melbourne hire Scott to do these big jobs and. Absolutely. Yeah. And even from abroad as well, they're sending the profiles. And, you know, I've got very intimate knowledge of that as well. So. Or there's a bit of learning in that for all of us. And I stand by what was said in the podcast. I thought it was really good. And if you want to learn, it's a great place to start. But, you know, I would also suggest getting your information from kind of a wide variety of sources. And. Absolutely. Yeah. In terms of, like, literature that you can consume. Most of it comes from Scott Rauer. No one else has put out much, much, much content. So. Yeah, he definitely, I mean, his book was highly influential for a reason. It was the first one out there that presented some sort of a systematic methodology for coffee roasting. In a way that was accessible used to be regarded as kind of a dark art that would be passed on between generations of roasters. And, you know, you could disagree with with a lot in that book. I don't necessarily follow all of all of his guidelines or rules. Neither does he. But the point is that it provides a systematic way to approach roasting and get consistency and quality. And that absolutely changed the conversation. And, you know, full disclosure. Scott's a friend of mine, you know, like I've known him on and off nearly 10 years now. He comes to Melbourne pretty much every year. He's a great guy. He's been, you know, really helpful to me whenever I've needed it without asking any favors in return. So on a personal level, he's a fantastic person. And if you do get to know him and you're listening to this, you'll have a great time. But, um, where we, where it's kind of leads on to is that there's like, there's a lack of standards in coffee generally. And it's not just for roasting. Sure. It's for brewing. But almost every sector of the coffee industry has a very high degree. Well, sorry. A very huge lack of standards. Sorry, getting twisted in words there. Like, there's not one body we can go to for definitive information, really. And, um, sure. And so, like, that's probably causes, you know, situations like we have who's got last week. And then I think as well with like the S.E.A. like we saw last year that they changed the cupping protocol for the coffee value assessment. And, uh, sure. Yeah. And, and I think a lot of people are quite confused by that. Do you agree there's a lack of standards and, um, we'll start off with that. I mean, we're kind of existing in the Wild West, relatively speaking specialty in the new industry. And it's a subset of a larger commodity industry, which is a coffee as a whole, which represents the vast majority of coffee this trade in the world, right? And it's a long supply chain. So, you know, the value stream extends all the way from, from people who are small family farmers who may have 10 to 30 trees all the way to, to larger states. And then of course, intermediaries and, and roasters and retailers. It's, it's, so I think there is a challenge in terms of trying to standardize. And that is some of the work that I do see UC Davis and SCA trying to take on right now, whether it's, you know, that through the CDA tool or trying to establish a color guide to objectively identifying determined roast levels rather than relying on just our own subjective ideas of what, what, what is light and what is dark. But because it's so subjective, I think it's challenging. And because the, the value stream is so long, it's challenging. If you, if you were to look at other industries that have some sort of regulations, bourbon, for example, in the US or wine, those regulations are really from supply side. They are meant to protect the interests of the producers. So whether we're talking about the, the, the, the AOC rules in France or California defining what can be, you have to have 100% of your grapes grown in, in California to be sold as a California wine. It's meant to protect the identity and distinct nature of those products on the international market. We're trying to do it from the consumer side, which is an inherent tension. And I think that's where it falls apart entirely. So economically speaking, I'm, I'm not sure that we can necessarily draw parallel. And I, I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing either. I'm okay with, with a certain amount of subjectivity and lack of standardization as long as it creates opportunity for people in the marketplace to find what they like, support what they like, rather than keeping people out, you know, kind of a left turn here, but looking at what's going on with EUDR, for example, in Europe. The, for those who don't know the European Union has this deforestation that they're trying to, trying to implement. And it essentially requires a certain level of auditing to determine whether there has been deforestation activity within these supply chains. And if there has been, it prohibits the important sale of these products. And there are some problems there because of course, 70% of the coffee in the world is grown by smallholders. And deforestation might be part of how those smallholders, many of whom are living below the poverty line, are able to produce coffee. And, and does it, if we're unable to audit those individual producers, because there are thousands contributing to a washing station, what happens to the coffee then? Does it not have a home or a market or does it sell elsewhere? And does that mean that we're only buying from those privileged, larger estates because they're able to, to meet the challenge of, of the regulatory condition? So it's, well, I wonder if in that scenario, Europe just becomes less competitive, you know, like it benefit, does it benefit countries like America? It's like, all right, we got access to more coffee, which is, you know, no, that if it's China, I think. Okay. Well, even China, like someone knows that of it. And so, like, I just think, is I wonder if it's a bit of a own goal for Europe? It's like, you know, you're kind of getting in your own way and, you know, regulation in certain industries, you know, it over regulation can hurt. It's not always a good thing. And, you know, what, and I actually discussed this with Andrew Kelly a couple of weeks ago and released that podcast this morning, but like, while we all agree, there's probably good intentions in this. And Europe actually, I would say, leads the world in sustainability. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I traveled there last year. I was, yeah, pretty shocked coming from Australia. And they deserve to be. be commended for that. But like, you know, this just seems like you're not really reading the room. I don't think there's capacity for producers to do this. I don't think it's possible. I'm skeptical. It's ever going to be implemented. Mm hmm. Yeah. I agree with you. And I think fundamentally it is well intentioned, but it doesn't really understand the underlying problems within the supply chains. I know that it was meant to be coordinated with an international response from the US. They hope the US would take up a legislation of its own. And of course, under the current administration, that's never happening. So it does, it does put Europe out in front in some ways. And I do think that there will have to be substantial modifications to how the regulation is implemented in order for it to succeed or survive in any way. Yeah. Well, it would be interesting to see, but Tom will tell. And you know, if I'm to make a prediction, if I'm to make, if I'm to stake a position here, I don't think it's happening. But yeah, yeah. Well, it'll have a fun impact on the market until it does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to bring the SCA into this kind of conversation about standards because they are, I guess, the, the specialty coffee association, the body. That's kind of met to have a leading role and advocate for the industry. But I personally feel like it's straying away from that a little bit. And I, to be frank, I don't look into the inner dealings and, you know, study the SCA much. But I feel like it's become a lot more about hosting successful expos around the world than it has been bettering, you know, producers. And it also, you know, as it relates to competition as well, I just kind of feel like the stakeholders in the most important stakeholders, the competitors, they're not really the, the number one concern anymore. Do you agree with that? And like, do you, do you have a view on what the functions of the S.I.L? I think that the S.I.A. a lot of people generally misunderstand the function and the purpose of the S.I.A. I had a conversation about a year and a half ago with one of the folks who was in the steering committee for the original S.I.A. And he essentially told me that I might need to fix this. I'll be right back. Or yeah. So where will the S.I.A. is co-functioning? Yeah. I think it's one of those cases where a lot of us in the industry because S.I.A. is the body that supposedly represents us and many of us pay memberships and attend expos. We look to S.I.A. and we are projecting something, whether it's our hopes or aspirations onto what their work should be or what they should represent. Which is a really, really interesting thing. They are partnering with research institutes to have, of course, that there's their work with WCR and UC Davis trying to promote these standards and develop, develop these standards. But at the end of the day, if you read their founding documents, their charter, their purpose really is to host events. Like, full stop. They were founded in the early 80s and the group of folks who got together essentially, originally it was supposed to be a coffee roaster's association. And they did want to create standards to essentially prevent people from diluting what specialty coffee was. There was a big roaster in Michigan who was putting 10% of what we would consider specialty grade coffee into a blend. That was otherwise commercial and selling it is 100% Columbia specialty grade coffee. And they said, no, no, no, we don't want that. We want to exclude those from the definition of specialty. So we need to form a trade group to do that. And ultimately, they decided not to do that. They decided to open it up to retail. And in order to do that, they started hosting these big expos and conventions to create networking opportunities. And that's how it started. So I think in many ways, we are asking too much of SCA and we need to be a little bit more sober and clear headed about what the purpose of the organization is. And if they aren't serving our interests, we need to find a better way to organize and have that delivered on. Well, this is the thing. And this is like, because I've got respect to Janus every now and then, I see here. So Janus is the president of the SCA. I've interviewed him previously on this podcast and I'm trying to get him back on again. And he's a butt of a lot of criticism. But you know, in the in the in what you just said, which is kind of something you want to touch on a bit more is that they're and I said as well, they're focused on events, right? And on that front, they're actually, I don't think anyone can really say they're doing a bad job because all the all these world of coffee events and host Milan and whatever happens around the world, they're crushing it. I was at the world of coffee in Jakarta last year. And like it was pandemonium. Like they're taking they are like in fairness to them, they're taking these coffee expos to these countries like Jakarta where they, you know, they don't necessarily get the best of the best coffee wise every year in terms of these events. They have Jakarta coffee week. But this is an international event that was held there and like it was pretty life changing. I felt for a lot of baristas there. Then they go to Panama this year. I think they got Bogota in the works for next year in Thailand as well. So on on that front, like they are crushing it. They're doing really, really well. I just think, you know, like admittedly, I don't understand their other core functions that well. I've been a bit of a critic of the way the conversation rules have kind of changed recently and how they kind of compel more investment from competitors. And I just think, you know, you, I would love to see more focus on, I guess, democratizing, you know, access to gear a bit more. But I also understand the reality and the practicalities. We need sponsors and all that sort of stuff. Fine. But I just do, I, again, I do kind of feel like they, they could focus on the last words. Yeah, you have a really, really know what they're set up to do. Like I said, and every, every single year, I dive into their form 990 filings with the IRS. They publish, you know, the salaries of their, their executive team. You can just look at those and decide if the way that they're spending money is in alignment with your values. And if it's not, then don't spend your money with SCA. That's, that's the simplest thing that I can beg of anyone who's listening. Find other ways to support your local community and organize in the grassroots manner. Yeah. Well said. And I think, you know, this is something I want to, this is a discussion I want to have with Yarnas himself and I'm trying to. So I'll, I'll, I'll full go having any comment now, but it's something I do plan on talking to him about because, you know, in an organization that cannot function without volunteers, I think that's a very fair question for everyone to ask, right? You know, someone getting paid $900,000 a year, very, very fair questions to someone to ask. And, you know, I, you know, and, you know, on a personal level, he's been very nice to me, you know, one time we had an issue with our gear and we lost a whole podcast and he came back the next day and re-recorded. He was very gentlemanly about it. So I want to give him a fair shake of the source bottle. With the, with the CBA protocol, we're kind of, we're almost one year in change now. How do you feel like it's going down? People are using it. Like, I know a lot of people are doing the courses and stuff like that here. I just don't know about the uptake in real scenarios. Like a, a grain bias going to origin and implementing this. So I haven't gone through the course yet. So I'm only going to speak of it from what I've heard from those who have as well as my own experience reading through the materials published by the SA and the new form. I think that the, the, once again, the intentions are noble. It is trying to get a higher resolution picture of a coffee and take into account its extrinsic attributes. Fundamentally, looking through it, it's pretty similar to the forms that I have set up for my own lab in terms of its data collection. I go even a little deeper. But it, I find that it's easier to use. So if you are new to copying, for example, it guides the process to make it easier for you to be in calibration with, with those who might have more experience and develop that skill of tasting coffee. I have no real qualms with changing the way that the scale is used or scores are calculated. That's just an arbitrary distinction. I know that S.C.A. has partnered with FNC to try and, and have every coffee that is graded by FNC using the CVA. And they're going to be collecting all that data for some sort of database as well as all the data collected by Cropster, for example, using the form. And so I do think that it'll, it'll hopefully create a larger understanding of coffee across the world. But as, in terms of, do I see buyers actually using the form? I have yet to see a buyer using the form in any real way. But we all, I think, seem to think that it's, it's a step forward in a lot of ways. But I mean, the 2004 form has been around for 22 years at this point, right? And we've trained tens or hundreds of thousands of people how to use it. Generations of buyers and cupbers have been using it. It's going to take a long time for the CVA to really make the headway, even with all of the courses and incentives for everyone to get on board. And I don't know how we, how we communicate our understanding of quality. Unless we specify, hey, in the CVA form, it scored a 93 and the old SCA form is scored an 87, whatever it is, that we're going to have to find ways to bridge that communication got particularly a year or two from now. If this continues to find adoption. Well, yeah, one thing I find, well, I guess one of the crops that have with, you know, the, you know, the original standard, I guess we'd call it is that like, it doesn't, I don't feel like it really abatizes coffee well. I don't know, that's not what it's there to do. But for example, like you've got an 87 point if you're washed and an 87 point, Burundi washed. I think like if you gave just the flavor notes, not the score, and, you know, you're going and took the names away, like people would be inclined to choose both. But like if you leave all that information there, I think more people, like if you, people just love Ethiopian refugees. I think like there's an unintentional bias there where I feel like detaching from a number and things like that might actually help to, to I guess allow people or encourage people to buy more things. - Yeah, I mean the, the CVA does, it still have that number, but it tries to add on other dimensions to the coffee to help market it really, which is, again, I think that is a noble intention. There are a lot of problems with the old form. Most of them in my opinion are people who don't know how to use the form correctly, which is a big problem. It's a professional tool and it has to be used accordingly. You can't just draw a number out of a hat after tasting a coffee and be like, that's an 87. You actually have to go through three passes and you do, you do the attributes in order as you're supposed to do and you, you know, that's how the assessment's supposed to be made. And I tell people all the time, there have been coffees that scored 86 points that I preferred over once that I've scored 87.5. And that's because I'm using the form. - Do you think they, do you think too many people were getting their Q-Graders to have their own? - Oh yeah, absolutely. - Because there's some people, I know that have Q-Graders and like, and I used to work with them, like how the hell did you get that? - Yeah, I mean. And in Australia, we've only got two Q-Graders or we only had two certified Q-Graders instructors. And so, look, people have said to me, one of them gives the, except more people than the other. People can take that as they will, but like, you know, it's easier to pass with some people than us. - Sure. - Which, you know, I've never sat it, but like, I'm just saying, there are people out there that say that. - Yeah, I took mine back in 2014 at the time. There were only, I think, 2,000 Q-Graders. And it was, you know, the guy who administered my test was I think the third person ever get the Q. So it was one of those things where they were operating with a different set of instructions at that time, which was not passed as many as you can, but don't pass anyone. Essentially, they were trying to make the test harder. And that was reflected in like, basically, how many people had to do retakes. But we flipped the other way now and we're trying to open it up to more people and make it more accessible. But I have heard from friends who I've coached through the process that the process is easier than it used to be. But like I said, I took it over 10 years ago and haven't taken it since. So I can't speak from personal experience just from what I've been told. - I want to take the conversation back to Quakers for a little bit. So in your podcast or unfiltered session with Lance Hadrik, shout out to Lance, you said that you like to keep a few Quakers in. Was that correct? - Well, so we were talking about, there's a competitor who was brewing an Ethiopian grade four and was keeping the Quakers in because they felt that it enhanced the body of the cup and the texture of the cup. When I am roasting for Aviary, I sort very lightly. 0.2% is my average sort for a coffee. I've sorted it up to 1%, but typically it's around 0.2%. And I'm really pulling out just those really yellow orange Quakers that you see. And that's because I find through multiple cupping sessions and brewing the coffees and engaging with them over six or eight weeks that the cup impact, it essentially flattens my cup if I get rid of too many. Yes, it creates very predictable cups, but it is less dynamic, less complex. And I find that I just simply don't enjoy them as much. So for me, it was a very simple choice. I also feel certain ways about sorting that much coffee here rather than at origin. It just is wasteful. And even if you are selling them, just in terms of transporting them, roasting them, every all of the accumulated costs, financing them, I'd rather have those be exported under their own sort of value proposition rather than buying them here and sorting them. So for me, I just haven't tasted the evidence that it was beneficial. I've also explored different roasting approaches on my machines. And there are ways that you can reduce the appearance of Quakers if we're talking of different categories or intensities or whatever of Quakers. And not every roast approach will result in this massive gradient. Some will tighten that band quite substantially. Some people commented on Instagram when they were arguing with the wall about what Scott said on the show that they've compared prodigals coffee to aviaries coffee and they didn't notice this substantial difference in Quaker presentation. And we are sorting very differently, but we're also approaching a roasting very differently. And we're approaching our green buying very differently. And so I think that there are tools that we can use if that's the outcome we desire that don't necessarily require us to take a lower margin on some of that coffee and sort them out. We can use other tools in our toolkit. - One anecdote I want to tell here is of the 2022 well-versed-to-champion Anthony Douglas. And he used a coffee from thinkl diviso in Columbia. And I was like a thermal shock something, one of those anaerobic processes. But it was the most Quaker-ridden coffee I've ever seen. And I don't say that to be critical to the farmer more so to kind of paint a picture of why he won. Because he literally handsorted with like his roaster and some other staff at Axel, like just sat there and handsorted. Like dozens of kilos of coffee, like it would have taken hours. And then he obviously went on to win the World Breast of Championship. And the difference between the espresso with sorted and unsorted was, it was World Breast of Championship level. And so I do think there is some value in meticulously sorting Quakers for coffee. And I don't know what really causes them. Like I do, there's under-up cherries and lack of nutrients for some things. But I don't know all the causes for Quakers. Is there any process that might produce more, not necessarily Quakers, but defective beans? So I'm gonna go ahead and do the thing that I do, which is take your statement that there is some benefit and say it depends. Because it really does depend on the coffee, on the use case, and it also depends on the process, like which is what I think you're alluding to. And I can tell you that the way that I approach greenbying, it will naturally results in fewer Quakers appearing. And that's just because of the physical evaluation that I do. Because yes, like you mentioned, nutrition is one of the biggest causes of problems that can cause Quakers in the cup. Imature, immature coffee, sure, but those typically get sorted out anyway. Disease, Roya, will cause a higher presentation of Quakers. Oh, the guy, oh, any of these diseases, you can take a cherry that even is red ripe and looks sorted. You can take one that passes floating, you can send it through a pulper and you'll still get Quakers. It's almost like potato sometimes where you just don't know until it's roasted. And so even if you crank the gravimetric tables and sort everything out, it's gonna happen. It's inevitable at the end of the day. It's just, what do we call a Quaker and what do we believe the importance on the cup is? In general, though, if you have a coffee that goes through a some sort of cherry fermentation stage or a coffee that goes through an extended fermentation which will result in a lower density overall, you will likely find more Quakers. Anything that has fewer sorting stages through the post-harvest processing will have more Quakers. And so that, yeah, anything that's cherry-dried would learn itself to that. And then any extreme temperature conditions which you might get from a thermal shock, for example, will also tend to result in a higher Quaker count. - Yeah, absolutely. And like I really applaud Anthony's win for that. I just quick note on him. He's someone who works so hard in Australia and really, he never went for the most expensive coffees in his competitions. Like he always, you know, I think he just saw so far beyond that. So really, really, really enjoyed his performance. And I'm trying to get him on the podcast soon as well. But that was one of those experiences with Quakers, I guess you'd say, I'm wondering, like are we calling these things Quakers when they're not? Like is there more to it than that? Like something might be a Quaker, but then you're talking about the increased prevalence of let's call it for now defective beans in an anaerobic process. Like are we calling them Quakers when they're not? Are they something else? - In my opinion, yes. I don't know what they are. But, you know, coffee is inherently heterogeneous, right? Had a roginess, how do you say that word? So many words I don't know how to pronounce, but I write, so whatever. Anyway, it's not homogenous. And as a result of that, we get a presentation of different types of coffees. If you're not changing your, or if you're not tightly controlling your screen size, for example, you may have coffees of various sizes and those will take on heat differently. And so they might appear less roasted in the finished product. coffees can have actually quite different moisture levels, depending how they're dried. Again, they will appear very different in the final roast. You'll get this modeled color, and we might identify them as Quakers when they might simply be under-roasted. And so we can change our approach to buying, and we can change our approach to roasting to mitigate some of those effects. But yeah, I do believe what you're saying is correct, which is that they might be something else entirely. - Yeah, I just wonder, I just wonder if we're categorizing them incorrectly, but maybe we can get somebody to a substantiate that one day. - And standardize it. - You see Davis. - Well, and we should probably clarify what we're talking about there with so University of California, Davis Campus has a coffee institute on campus where a lot of coffee research is done. So you might have mentioned Christopher mentioned that in the podcast. University of Oregon also has one Dr. Christopher Hendon who has a coffee lab there as well. So if you don't already listen, you should listen to a coffee lit review by Dr. Christopher Hendon, another great coffee podcast. I don't think he's producing podcasts right now because he's just had a baby. So, but rest assured, I'm working on getting you on this one. So we'll get that soon. I saw back behind you, when you were fixing your contact lens, you're using the lowest, is it the P3000? Is that is that a year? - So this is the L200 Ultra. So this is the sample roaster, but I do have the P3000 at my production history. So I'm at my home lab right now, and this is my primary sample roaster. - I'm interested to get your thoughts, and I know you've got some good thoughts on sample roasting. And I kind of brought this up with Scott last week that, I feel like not everyone, not like some of the suppliers that I'm using that I sell migraine, they're not doing great sample. - Oh, yeah, sure. - And it's like, I really want to buy that coffee, but you've not given me, like can I roast it myself? 'Cause like you've not given me a good expression. That's not maybe in a jerk. It's just like, these are, that's a very crucial part of the coffee supply chain. But, you know, we go through so much effort to procure good coffee, encourage farms to do all this, and that someone's not gonna, like a company's not gonna buy it and sell it to other people. If at that stage, it's not done well, or correct. - Sure. - So like what can we do to better improve sample roasting? - This is such a good question. I feel like a lot of the time that I'm at export labs, I spend it with the quality team working on their sample roasting. So that they can better taste coffees, the way that buyers in the US and Europe will be tasting their coffee and really understand what we're looking for. The problem that you're describing is so common, and it's a service provided by the importers, right? They know that not everybody has access to a sample roaster, and they want to give you the opportunity to taste that coffee. But it's also reflective of probably how they're roasting. And much of the time, I think that will be indicative of, well, there's a reason that we're not calibrated. Sample roasting is one of those areas that I am dedicating quite a lot of my time to right now in terms of teaching. And I hope to put something together to help better educate around the topic. Scott has a little bit in his book. The SCA has guidelines from like 400 years ago. And there's really just not much in the way of describing what a good sample roaster is, or how to achieve it. So yeah, you're right on that this is an area that we need to be spending more time focusing on. - But you know what? You know why this is an issue? I feel like sample roasting itself is something that's passed on to like someone that's just started their second day on the jobs. Like yeah, here's how you operate the sample roaster. And as we're saying, it's far more important than that. It's something that needs to have like a good approach to because if you're a roaster or an importer and you're doing a good job of these things, like you sell so much more, you'll make better informed buying decisions. It'll be, it'll mean that someone gets their coffee bought from overseas. Like an importer might not buy from a producer again, which is a bad thing if like their coffee didn't sell much to the obvious here. So I just think we need to collectively put a bit more love into sample roasting and professional. - Yeah, I always identify myself as a sample roaster more than a production roaster. It's, I mean, I've certainly run as many cycles on a little roaster as I have on a big one. And for me, I show up to labs and very often I can't taste the coffee or I find that I may be able to better understand like, oh, you're tasting corn and wheat. And so you're scoring that low and I'm flagging it for re-roast. You know, that really making sure that we actually give coffees a look, which requires that sample roasting stage. And I do love technologies like the roaster, the link. You know, these more automated roasters, but it does garbage in garbage out. You have to make sure that your profile is good. - I love that you can do kind of paint by numbers with the link. And, you know, I recently roasted for one of my guys who competed in Australia. He did really well. But like, if a more unlike me can operate it like it's, it's kind of proven it's a market value, hasn't it? And I'm excited to really now try out more roasters and stuff like that and yeah, can't wait to try the roaster. Roast, how do you say? Roaster. - I think this is. - Roast. Yes. But, you know, everyone has their own distinct pronunciation and the company has sort of jokingly leaned into that. So yeah. - I want to ask you about rehydrating rain. And this is something that someone did in the brewers cup recently in Australia. They got an old coffee and rehydrated and roasted it and did a good job. And then obviously Scott mentioned it last week. And it's something that you, I guess, have popularized maybe even started yourself. Could you explain that process and what it does? - Yeah, I've written three different blog posts about this over the years. Essentially, the theory is that if you take a coffee that is tasting somewhat faded or has, you know, that hallmarks of a fade. So, lower acidity paper or cellulose cardboard taste, maybe an astringency on the finish. And you add some amount of water to it. And I've found that between 12 and a half and 14% is pretty ideal for a target moisture. Then allow it to absorb into the coffee over 12 to 16 hours and then roast it. It will make the cup more vibrant, brighter, cleaner. And it will mitigate much of that paper taste. So I had played with this during COVID, early COVID, after talking about it with Tim Hill who used to be the buyer at counterculture. And he said that he had been searching for ways to steam coffee on the way to the roaster just because he found that it was benefiting, benefiting pretty much every coffee that he threw at it. And so for me, I did a pretty good job of buying and most of my coffees were tasting pretty good, but I had one coffee that came in way late, like six months late and it was pretty papery. I chose not to reject it 'cause I tend not to reject coffees on arrival. And so I found that this rehydration process bumped it by two and a half points. And so for me, it was the difference between rejecting a coffee or being able to give it a second life where it did taste just vibrant and delicious. - So if someone's listening to this and they want to try it themselves, what do you suggest they do? - Well, you can head over to my blog and I've got the full methodology published there. How to calculate the amount of moisture that you should add. How to go about the process. The only thing that I would add to what's there is that you're going to either need to work with a smaller bash size or be prepared to add substantially more energy to drive off that free moisture, particularly in the middle of the roast. If you expect that you're gonna be able to apply the same sort of inlet temperatures over the same amount of time, you're gonna end up with coffee that's pretty underdeveloped. It still might taste fine, but it might not be what you're going for. - Well, let's talk about this blog because your blog posts are the most detailed and potent in the coffee industry that I've seen. And you're clearly, you're very, it reminds me of an essay that I wrote when I was at university that I'd worked on. - Sure. - That took me months to write. And it's just like the level of detail is incredible. So I really recommend that you go to, is it ChristopherFerron.com? - Yep, exactly. ChristopherFerron.com and read the blog posts, they're very incredible. How much time does it take you to write these? 'Cause you don't release them, your schedule doesn't seem like it's like weekly or monthly or something. You gotta cook on it for a little bit, but which, I'm not complaining about the product, but how long does it take you to write these? - Yeah, I mean, it takes as long as it takes. So some posts I can put together pretty quickly, especially if there's not that much research required, if it's just me sharing my experience or anecdotes, I could put those together in a week or two, working on them at night's weekends. Something like this last post on Peru, for example, in an Incagacia, I started researching for this in May of 2024. And I didn't sit down to start writing it until a month and a half ago. So it's safe to say I've spent hundreds of hours putting together that one. As I did with the post on Ethiopia, and the industry there. So there is a range, but because of that, I haven't paid while done any of my content. I haven't committed myself to any schedule because as soon as I do that, the joy is gonna be gone and I'm just gonna stop doing it. So for me, it's as I feel inspired or curious about a topic, I will dive in and I almost always have a half dozen or so in various stages of research or writing that hopefully one day we'll see the light of day. - Yeah, and just to remind folks again, I would absolutely encourage that you go and read it because you'll learn and I had the pleasure of, you know, obviously over the years, reading one here or there, but then in preparation for this reading some, would cannot recommend enough. But one thing I kind of noticed in there is that you've got like a forensic level of detail and in looking at your LinkedIn, did I recollect correctly that you once interned at the FBI? - Yeah, this surprises people when they know where I stand politically and then they're like, "Okay, so you work for the man." But this was in college when I was in undergrad. I did an internship with the FBI's forensic audio video Image Analysis Unit. So my specialty was in audio, forensics, and speaker identification. So that would be like if you had a recording come in from a crime scene and you needed to capture speaker data for presenting in court and validate who the suspect was. For example, or clean it up to find out details of like, "Oh, you heard a clock of this person "who was kidnapped in the back of a car." Maybe you can figure out pinpoint where in the city they were calling from, for example. So details like that. So it was, it sprung out of, I did a lot of audio engineering work in undergrad and I was curious about that. And also it was a time in America. It was 2008 where it was, you know, we were engaged in multiple wars abroad and I was very politically active and I decided that it would be better for me to be there and participating in the system hopefully to make sure that people's rights were protected. I was naive and cute in my 20s. And that was ultimately what I decided to do. It was an incredible experience. I had a great mentor and I certainly learned a lot. But I would say that my more forensic approach to the way I research and write comes both from my father who is a career journalist. So he worked for 35 years for newspapers and as an editor and then also from my experience in undergrad and interdisciplinary studies. So I write 40 pages a week for my degree and that would be across all disciplines and I have an, as a result of that program and an incredible capacity to synthesize knowledge and learn. So that's really what I'm trying to apply here. - And just on you saying that talking about your political views and being on the FBI, like I actually think it's important that people from, like if it's just like institutionally run by people that have one ideology, then that's a problem. So in a democracy like you shouldn't feel any remorse or guilt or anything like that. You're contributed to society and honestly, like I think the institutions like that depend on having people that they're not all conformist as a potential ideology. So I just think it's really important about that. And no one should direct any ill comments to you for that. And you should think no less of yourself for it because it's a very important thing you did. And it's very important that people of all persuasions could participate in that. So just wanna make my position on that clear. But yeah, it's very interesting. And like I'll be interested to know where sort of surveillance goes from here 'cause like the technology abundance that we have is just becoming more and more. Like apparently law enforcement can like tap into your fridge microphone and stuff like that, which is just not. - Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. Back in the day, we regarded for example, face ID was not reliable in terms of biometric data. Back in the day, it was gate the way people walked and voice ID were actually the most accurate. And the equal error rates that we were getting for speaker and voice ID were between five and seven percent. So still not admissible in court. But that was almost 20 years ago. This technology certainly has improved as the data collection has as well. - Back to the coffee stuff. You're obviously on the ground in a lot of coffee producing countries pretty frequently. So I'm curious to know like what, how have you seen climate change impact coffee farms in, I guess since you started in coffee? - The effects of climate change are everywhere, right? It's a global phenomenon. And so therefore it's difficult to generalize what is happening except to say that everything is more extreme. So in Columbia, for example, we used to have two basically two harvests like your main crop and then your mitsaka would be a smaller fly crop. And that might be separated by three months in between. And now essentially what we see is we see a continuous harvest in some parts of the country over six to eight months. Just a little burst of activity, which of course makes it more difficult to process. You're never achieving full efficiency at your wet mill. You're never fully able to utilize labor, for example, because ripening is an ongoing thing. So it does increase your costs in places like Ethiopia. So we are seeing coffee move further and further up the mountain. 20 years ago we would have said that coffee can't grow above 2,000 meters in Ethiopia. Now we've got coffees coming out of Benzat, 2,600. So it is changing production. It's changing the predictability. And of course it's having other effects in terms of migration crisis and that effect labor and other other outcomes. So yeah, it's a warming world and a more extreme world will pose challenges for those who are producing coffee. Yeah, and even just like let's apply it to our everyday lives, right? I think I've lived in Melbourne for 10 years. I'm from Sydney originally. And the weather has just changed here, I feel like. The winters start later and end later than they usually did. We didn't get-- it's been really cold in Melbourne up until December. And then now we're getting today, it's going to be 25 degrees. Tomorrow's going to be 45 degrees. This is wild. Wow, that sounds great. That's great. Yeah, the bushfires here, I think you call them wildfires in the US. Like they're extreme. We had some really bad ones five or six years ago. And then there's still some ongoing, still burning bushfires. And tomorrow I imagine more will start, because it's just going to be so. Because we're getting these really rainy winters, which just creates fuel for fire. And when these fires start, actually, they create-- their own weather systems are happening. So the smoke will actually form thunderstorms, which obviously produce thunder that ignites more fires. So it's just wild the way it works. But it's kind of creeping into our everyday lives. And it's being very felt in the coffee industry. I'm just saying. Yeah, yeah, of course. And wine industry too, we deal with wildfires in the US that are smoke-tained is a big problem that lots of folks-- an Australian, New Zealand, are trying to figure out how to combat. And last year in Mexico, there were wildfires in one area where I was doing some work. And a lot of the coffee was damaged. So it's not just destruction of the trees, but it's also destruction of the harvested coffee after. So it's something that we're going to have to learn to manage. And there are many different ideas being posed about how we can do that. And I kind of feel like we need to take a yes and all of the above approach to deal with this. What are some of those ideas? I'm sure. So WCR is working on variety trials around the world, basically taking Ethiopian land races and crossbreeding them with some more resistant varieties, ones that are more heat tolerant. And of course, these crop improvement breeding programs have existed in coffee for hundreds of years. This is nothing new, other than our use of genetic data to hopefully speed this process up and make it cheaper. So that's one approach is fine trees that are better able to withstand our changing world. Another approach that I've seen very successfully is the use of agroforestry, which can create its own weather systems, drawing coffee in forest systems, and improve soil fertility, reduce the day night temperature extremes, protect from frost, things like that, as well as promote quality. So those are two different tactics I've seen. There's also experimentation going with shade, both temporary, sprayed on, full-year sprays, just to deal with more extreme weather. And then in Brazil, I've seen pictures of folks burning fires and the coffee fields like they would in vineyards just to keep the trees warm and protect them from frost. There are a lot of interventions, both in terms of long term and what we need to do tactically in the moment to prevent the effects. Yeah, coffee's response to this would be interesting. And I think-- I don't know if it's necessarily born out of climate change, but there's pomeo coffee in Denmark, which produces coffee that's grown inside of a greenhouse. And that's read led by a gentleman named Rasmus. I forget his surname. But anyway, and the coffee that they grow is extraordinary. Like for what they're doing, I tried to use some for competition last year, because it's that incredible. The wash gays, he's developed a variety called Flora, which I think is like proprietary for him. What they're doing is unbelievable. And I think there's, I know that it consults with farms all across the world doing various different things, but I think that's, that's, they're the people that I think listeners to this podcast should be kind of looking towards in the future because well, they're, it's incredible. Yeah, it's fascinating work. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And like, honestly, I just, I just want to get the coffee so bad. I want to start drinking more. Well, I've got my last sort of area of questions that I want to ask you and it's kind of like going back to the larger commercial side of things. Sure. And interestingly, you said that, you know, things like the EUDR probably benefit countries like China. And then you've got these new entrants into the market like Luckin Coffee, which are enormous purchases of coffee and, and the purchases that they do kind of send quakes throughout the same market as well. So what, how do you kind of see that playing out in the next few years? Do you think like in America in particular, do you think they have an appetite for these hyper convenient franchises like Luckin and Blank Street that do coffee quite affordably for the consumer, but rely on this high volume model? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I went to a Luckin when I was in, in New York in the fall and I was shocked how busy it was. There were only two at the time and I think I had to wait 20 minutes for, for whatever order I put in on my app. And they had a whole army of, of folks in their ever-sus cameos. Just, it was, it was quite an operation. I've heard that they have something like 10,000 leases signed in the US and they're preparing to take Starbucks on head on. Yes. So I do think that it is going to be a great battle royale. And their app is really the thing and their coupon system is the thing that is going to make them hyper competitive, particularly in mid markets in the US. But the fact that they've secured as much coffee as they have in advance puts them in a strategic advantage as well. You know, pre-contracting two years of coffee from Brazil, $2 billion is astronomical. And that did certainly create ripples in the supply chain. And that is, sorry, you said 10,000 leases arranged, right? Like, oh. And like, the rate in which they open stores in China is like, it's crazy. So like, it'll probably take them like two or three years to open all those shops. Like, I don't doubt it. Their efficiency is absolutely nuts. So the appetite really is that big, the giant coffee in America. Yeah. I mean, Dutch brothers is the fastest growing brand and then the whole thing is drive-through convenience and they're serving underserved markets. So the retail landscape is so interesting, particularly post-COVID. I think people are desperate for something that is either better or more customizable than Duncan and Starbucks. And if they don't really care about that human to human experience that we pride ourselves on, right? And kind of third wave post-thirteenth wave specialty. But it's giving people what they want. How do you, like, this is a very off the cuff question. I don't expect you to have an answer really. But if you're Brian Nickle, what do you do? I mean, you continue to do it. You do, and you differentiate. And you focus on what you do best. I don't know. That's, that's, if you, the nature of business is you have to adapt and focus on your core value proposition and deliver it. And if people show up and continue to support it, then you survive. They don't, then you have to adapt or you die. It's, yeah. There's this, there's this podcast that I listened to with Howard Schultz recently. I forget what it's called. You might know that one where they do it once a month and they're really detailed. Do you remember the name of the podcast? I don't. I can't remember. But anyway, yeah, and Howard Schultz kind of, he spoke a lot about like, you know, what people really loved in Starbucks and it was that, you know, I guess the feeling they created within people and then when that, that the other gentleman, the McKinsey consultant took over the CEO, they really went away from that, you know, and hurt their sales so much. So I'll be really watching because on price, they probably cannot compete. And then I wonder, and I see a lot of things in the news these days about how, you know, Starbucks shops unionize and things like that. And so I don't know if luck in will have the, the same issue. I mean, they will be employing American workers. So we'll have to happen at some point. I expect. Yeah, I just want to wait any time you have a, have a company like that that has a fast growth trajectory and it's well capitalized. There is going to be an inherent tension between workers and ownership. So I would imagine that they're going to face the same unionization efforts, which is, is in my opinion, healthy, particularly for a company of that scale. But I think, I think we're luck and succeeds is just its ability to give people exactly what they want. I go in the app. I go with infinite customizations, get my coupon and Starbucks is of course moving away from that toward less customization, more streamlined, skewerationalization. And they're, so they're very divergent models. But if you have something like luck and they're also the secret is that like a lot of the menu is not coffee based. And that can give you a better margin as well. Incredible. Yeah. I'm really curious about the metrics of that. But we shall see. We shall see over the next few years, Chris. But all right, well, we're getting towards the end of the podcast now. So a new thing I'm starting is, is if you have a question for me at the end. So Chris, do you have a question? Yeah. If you could add any one rule or remove any one rule to the brista competitions, what would it be? Oh, well, I'm going to give you an answer for both. So if I'm to add, it would be in a compulsory round. I think that would be like a really welcome addition to brista in particular. Because we do it in the compulsory. It's a success and it makes or breaks who. Absolutely. And I think it gives you a pretty clear indicator of who the best brewer is. What I would remove from brewers is the giving tasting notes during the routine or like even just like extending it by two minutes. Because so much of it is consumed by this really boring, you know, it's going to taste like I just think we could wipe that all completely and we could have a much more entertaining competition. I would also add to this that I think we should start bringing back commentaries to these things. Having good analysis, having good breakdowns and, you know, I'm a massive fight fan. So I loved UFC. I love boxing and particularly in boxing. I have these live score cards as the round goes on. You've got an expert commentator there. It's like, I think this guy's winning. And one of the awesome parts about it is they're pretty regularly wrong. And you know, it adds this element of controversy, but also brings so much, so many more eyeballs to the sport. And, you know, I've spoken about this with other people. So for example, we've got, let's say I'm commentating, which I would love to do one day. And because I do a lot of MC work for the competitions here. What hiddenoria's Archi should be doing is tasting each espresso after each routine and giving a analysis and or breakdown of, all right, well, I really like this. He struggled in that area, but a lot more honest. I think we're just so behind to a lot of the competitors. And we like, I think we should just be so much more frank and honest in those things and have proper analysis. And there's just, I think this, like in the competitions this year, they had these different statistics and stuff that happened live. And they did try to like add this element of like more data and things that you can draw upon. And I think more people are streaming in and they've had a degree of success for that. But I would go one step further. Have some good analysis. Have some good, you know, interactions with the competitors and commentators should try their coffee. These coffees, they're like, it's like the launch codes. They kept so under wraps. Right. You just know it. No one gets to it. No one sees it. Touches it like the judges get to and that's it. I agree, man. I just think that we, I was just doing a, there's a oxo, hell day, soup competition in New York and me and Lance from say and Brian Quann were the judges. And we had her on little tail and we're just sitting there having our side conversation talking about things in the industry. And I'm like, man, if we each had a lab mic, if the competitors had a lab mic and we could just go around, that would make such good YouTube programming. Like, it seems so natural. But we just, we just, we tend to want to do things Bruce free. And I just think, you know, that's all part of it. Like, you know, sometimes when I interview a competitor after their competition and they bombed, like something went really wrong, I, I asked them about it. It's like, you know, you had a rough day at the office to walk us through it. Because that's interesting. Yeah. Like some people don't want to. Some people say, you know, I can't be bothered, Kirk and I respect that. But like, I don't know if I'm just like weird, rude, a bit too upfront, but like, I ask them about it because, you know, hearing those things and I've been there myself. It's like, one time in a competition, I forgot something off my trolley. I had to run backstage while I was up there. My family were watching me. They traveled a few hours to watch. And I was overtime and got to qualify. It was the most humiliating thing ever. But, you know what, like, I kind of want people to know about it. It's like, all right, well, don't do that in a competition phase. Bring a checklist. So, you know, humanized is the whole thing. You know, it is a very competitive space. And I think this ties back into, you know, the controversy with Scott is that we forget that we're dealing with human beings sometimes. I think that that aspect of coffee could be really beautiful if we would just lean into a little bit more. - Yeah, and like profile the competitors a bit better before the competition. So I said I was gonna do this for the last worlds and I made a few videos, but it's very time-consuming - Sure. - to do, but I just think you look at Drive to Survive the Netflix series about Formula One. They created this narrative about the sport which increased the participation or like the audience by like, I don't even know, some astronomical amount. Now I love F1 and I've gotta say, I'm one of the guys that was, I was baptized by Drive to Survive and coffee needs its own version of that or something to get that conversation started. - Yeah, I think that's great. - Well Chris, we're at the end of the podcast. Thanks so much to you for accepting the invitation. I've gotta give a quick shout out to my sponsors. People will have heard the Oatley ads for a few rounds now. Big shout out to them, they support me. I use a lot of their Oatcream to make matcha, like big batches of matcha and stuff like that and curry. Like I'm a big time curry guy. Long time listen to this show, no, I'm a curry fan. So, and I have been since birth. So my last meal on Earth would be, if I was on Death's Row, it's on my live cough to with two butterdowns, I'm just saying. And then I gotta give a shout out to Tomo as well, all a very affordable brew gear and very high quality brew gear as well. So if you're making it home or brewing the world brewed cup, you can use Tomo gear, it's very effective. Scales, grinders, kettles, all of it, available at time more. And then of course, barista group. I've got my new cafe opening up very soon here in Australia and I've got, and it's based on, do you know much about this? Well, so I'm opening this cafe where for milk drinks, we're pre-batching the espresso. So I've got a store here and we're making the espresso and we're actually gonna dispense it out of tap. Great. And so it's a hyper-quip way of making coffee. And I think one of the lesser known elements of it is that, the capital expenditure means that I don't have to buy, I offer four different milk drinks at my current store and so I need four grinders. But now I only need one grinder for single origin and the next store and I save $21,000 in Australia and grinders alone. And then get a two group machine instead of a three group, that's another X amount of thousands of dollars. So scalability wise, it's better. And then in terms of operations, like it's so much quicker. But anyway, it doesn't have to. Yeah, and in a flat way, no lesser quality. Awesome. No, no, no drop-off in quality. Like people love to roast me on the internet about it, but like, you know, come try one and see for yourself. But anyway, barista group there in Australian based company, they're helping me with the Uber Milk Plus, which will dispense like five different steam milks, bit of a game changer and the Marquis Zaga coffee grinder. So if you want to streamline your cafe operations, just go to gelpouristagroup.com.au and he'll sort you out. But Christopher, thank you so much again for accepting the invitation. Listeners to this podcast are in for another treat yet again. Thanks to you. So been a pleasure having you on, pleasure meeting you and I can't wait to meet you in person sometimes soon. Yeah, likewise. Thanks so much for having me, Kirk. You can either listen to the third of the day about how you can go to oatley.com and find recipes for the amazing drinks over at the future of Taserport. It's from the future. We'll learn about the sustainability work or you can press the 15 sec board button on your pond blank device. It's totally up to you.