Christian Bartsch on Bird & Bird’s path to €1bn

Welcome back, today's guest is Christian Barch, CEO of Bird and Bird. Probably one of the most distinctive firms around, thanks for its deep focus on technology and IP. Christian took over from David Kerr in 2022 and had some pretty big shoes to fill, taking over from someone who had led the firm for 26 years, and he is clearly doing something right as early this year. Christian was re-elected for a second term. We talk about Bird and Bird's plans to reach a billion euros in revenue by 2029, why the firm is continuing to expand internationally, and what it would take for him to consider a US merger. We also get into AI, why Christian thinks generic law firms could struggle and how Bird and Bird is preparing its own lawyers for what Christian believes will be a transformational few years. I hope you enjoy the conversation. Christian, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast. It's great to get you on. Yeah, thanks a lot. It's great to see what you guys are doing at non-billable as well. It's a bright, shiny, Monday morning, so wonderful to have the opportunity to say hello. Thank you, Christian, very kind of you. So look, yeah, look, talk to me a bit about your time then at Bird and Bird, because you've been at the firm for quite a while, actually having your question. And you've gone from sort of tech partner to now CEO. So do you want to just sort of fill us in on that journey a little bit? Yeah, of course, so I've been here just under 20 years now. As you say, tech partner for many of those years always had an interest in tech, whether it was vibe coding, you know, in 2026 or coding in basic when I was a teenager in my bedroom in 1986. I guess the firm gave me a lot of opportunities in terms of leadership roles over those years in the firm. I was the UK training principal, which was a fantastic, fantastic role with really energised people coming into our organisation. I was always co-head of our global financial services, sector group as well, which was a fantastic opportunity to really learn about the global firm. And I was also a global board member for six years as well, and as a part of that I chaired our global risk committee, so lots of opportunity to see everything that was going on in the firm. And I guess when David stepped down, I thought it was a real opportunity for me to leverage the learning of money, understanding of that global organisation. But also having been that tech lawyer for decades, I could really see all of us some of the exciting things that were going to happen in the law. So I think to have a CEO of an international law firm is really tech-enable that was passionate about tech that really understood the tech as well. I thought that might be a bit of a differentiator. So I guess that's my career at Bird and Bird in the nutshell. Talk to me then about the leadership transition, because this was quite a moment, wasn't it, for Bird and Bird? Because as you said, David Kerr, I think what didn't he lead the firm for 26 years? 26 years, yes. I mean, that's unparalleled, isn't it? It's big shoes to fill, Oliver. I have to say, after 26 years for the new chap coming in. I think that the fantastic thing, David, the previous CEO, was a real visionary. He built this amazing firm with the help of many other colleagues, but it was really his vision that drove us forward. So it was such an opportunity for me. As you say, coming in after somebody who's been here for 26 years, I think isn't without its challenges to be fair, but the path that he set the firm on, I thought was a fantastic path. I saw my role as really evolving that, getting more structure around some of our strategic ambitions over the next few years. It helped that I'd also interacted with David in my leadership roles over those many, many years as well. So the transition, I think being very open with you transitioning to someone after 26 years is always going to be a worry. There is always going to be a worry, but we planned it, exceptionally carefully. Transition was seamless. I think partners were saying what's going to happen? It is going to work quite frankly after 26 years, but as I say, we worked very hard, project planning on that transition. I got a very strong mandate from the partnership, which is always helpful as well. The fact that I was reelected recently for my second term, perhaps shows of the partners, are happy with what I'm doing all of it. It reminds me, actually Christian, because just this morning I was reading something about Jose Mourinho. He was originally supposed to take over from Alex Ferguson at Manchester United in 2013 or something. It's a very difficult thing to do for the whole kind of organisation, isn't it, to get your head round a new leader? How have you approached it? And what are you trying to do differently? It is. You need to make your own mark. You need to be your own individual. I think one of the things that I wanted to do as a leader in Bernberg is we have a really collaborative partnership. And I thought one of the things that I could do is to bring real clarity around strategy. So we spent a lot of time in the first, probably 12, 20 months of my leadership having workshops with the partnership and the wider firm in terms of what we wanted to be as an organisation where we wanted to go as well. So that took, you know, it did take a lot of time, Oliver. I think it's a few years ago now, but probably 40 or 50 global workshops. I absolutely recall we had those 1700 individual data points. And so what that enabled me to do was craft a strategy. There wasn't top down. That was really important to me. It wasn't a top down strategy. It was powered by our people, no, powered by the partnership. It also did two things, which I think helped me as a new leader coming in on the back of somebody that had been a leader for 26 years. It got partnership buy-in, which was really important. Partnerships really bought into it because it came out of the sessions that we'd had with them, associates and also business services colleagues as well. So it wasn't something that was being imposed upon the partnership. It was something that we'd collaborated on. And we gave the partnership a very clear north star. So all the partners knew the aims of the strategy and what we wanted to achieve over that five-year period. So what it gave us, it gives professional services, for instance, generally is a massive amount of forward momentum with everybody heading in the same direction. And what to tell us about the north star then, Christian, come on. Sure. So we have an ambition to be the number one firm in the world guiding our clients through a world being changed by technology, innovation and regulation, really transforming the future of legal services. That's the north star. We're making sure that that momentum that we have as a partnership is difficult in any professional services organization. But once you've got it, it's so precious. One of my jobs is to make sure that we keep that and keep driving the firm forward as well. So I guess no surprise than that it is geared around technology focus. Bird about has always been known for that. Ever since I've been, you know, a junior solicitor right up to today, it's always that's, you know, a very distinctive brand in that respect in the market. How would you describe then the firm's kind of position in the global market today? So we've got, you know, over 30 offices in over 20 countries now. I think one of the things that we did very well over the past few decades is we had a sector approach before that really became fashionable. A lot of law firms now have all, you know, thought to have that, that's that sector approach. But we took the decision, you know, decades ago to make sure that we would have lawyers that really understood the sectors and the commercial environment in which our clients were operating. Now lots of other organizations say that they have that many, many do. But I think we are different because we've been going at it for so long. Our whole infrastructure has been around delivering client service through those sectors. And you're right, you know, we've had a tech-enabled approach for many years. We're celebrating our 100 and 80th birthday this year, Oliver, which is a big milestone. But we've been doing, you know, those innovative patent cases for over 100 years now. So that tech has always been embedded in our DNA. You know, I think we were one of the first firms certainly in the city of London that put computers on everyone's desk long before they became fashionable, you know, and those lawyers use them. They didn't just use them to store their paper files on them. So there's always been real, real innovation in the global organization. And that's carried through. And it's a real, I mean, it's a real privilege to lead a law firm that has tech at its heart when there is so much tech disruption in the world at the moment. The type of services that we offer, the type of lawyers that we have truly aligned to some of the difficulties that I think and the challenges that our clients have at the moment. So to be able to service them, support them, lead them through navigating through those challenges, I think is, you know, it's an amazing opportunity for the firm and for, you know, helping our clients as well, which is which is paramount. So do you think, do you see that as bird and bird's competitive advantage then? It's almost that it's almost something, it's kind of soft, isn't it? But you can't, it's not easy to replicate. It's that perception, that brand, that understanding in the market that you are the go to firm for this. Yeah, and I think, you know, my kind of vision of the future in terms of law is if you're, if you're just a another generic law firm, you're going to struggle in this, this AI-enabled world. But if you have a distinctive USP, if you're really known for those areas that you're, you're truly specialised in, if you've got that, that, that sector, that sector expertise, that's, that's a real differentiator, I think, Oliver, yes. And where are the kind of hot areas then within the, the, the kind of tech sector for you at the moment? I guess one of the areas that I think about a little bit is the, the new kind of UPC pattern regime over in Europe. And when I speak to folks about that, it sounds like if, for, for the firms that have that capability, that, that's a real kind of booming area, isn't it, at the moment? Yeah, so we're at two on global IP firms. So we have a massive amount of knowledge of the UPC. We have a, a fantastic offering in, in Europe and lots of our lawyers are engaged in that, you know, that's, that's from a pattern side as well. We've got a full service offering on IP, but certainly IP. And I think it goes more, more broadly than just the, the, the UPC, you know, the whole concept of intangible assets for global organizations now is, is so important. And we're the firm that can absolutely help on that. Yeah, so patent litigation generally just seems like a really, kind of, buoyant area at the moment. I guess for the, the reasons you've outlined. Why is that then in particular, you know, is it because of, you know, just the, how big a lot of technology companies and other companies have become in relation to their sort of intangible assets, you know, what, what's the driver behind it? Well, as, as commercial life gets, more complicated as, you know, corporate organizations have to, have to invest in research and development. They want to make sure that their outputs and investment is, is suitably protected. For sure. And you see some of the innovations that are coming through, whether that's on things like autonomous vehicles, for example, some of the exciting things that are happening in the life sciences sector as well. Yeah, protection, protection of the investments that that you've made become ever more important. So one of the things I wanted to ask you about Christian was, when was it? A couple years ago now, I think you, one of the things you wanted to do was set a revenue target for the firm. I think this was the first time Bordenberg had done that, correct me if I'm wrong. But the revenue target you set was one billion euros, wasn't it, by 2029 financial year? Why did you want to do that? The target isn't the strategy. I think it's, it's, it's an output of the strategy. And we did a lot of assessment in terms of strategic ambitions, a lot of assessment of the market place as well. What we didn't want to do was just grow for growth, say, a terrible strategy. Well, it's not even a strategy to grow for growth, say, so we wanted to make sure that the growth was aligned, as I say, to those sectors, to those areas of expertise. But also to set ourselves a target as well. I'm a big believer. I spent many years on common in consultancies. I've always been fascinated by the world of consultants. And so I know if you give colleagues KPIs, if you give colleagues targets, it helps formulate ideas. It helps to create that forward momentum. So as I say, it wasn't, it wasn't a strategy in itself, but it's going to be the outcome of the strategic ambitions that we have as a global organization. And of course, it's, you know, putting things out there into the marketplaces, as you've just done Oliver, you get, you get tested on them, right? You get tested on them. But I was very keen to make sure that the legal world saw ambitions as a global organization and that we put those sorts of targets, those metrics out there as well. We did it in other areas as well. You know, 30% female talent is a target for the partnership by the end of that five-year strategy as well. So I'm a great believer in selling targets, because as soon as you set targets, as soon as you have the North Star of our ambition, if you combine those two together, you have a much better chance of achieving your strategic aims. Yeah, yeah, I guess it's always that one is that where what happens if you don't quite make it, you know, but it's still on track, you know, there's still three or four years or whatever to make it. But I guess there's all, you know, what happens when things don't quite go to plan, do you think? We're going to make it, Oliver, we're going to make it. And so everything we're doing is aligned to that. Look, I'm confident that we will hit the targets that we've set ourselves. It's my job in my second term to make sure that we do that. But at the same time, it's not, you know, it's absolutely not growth or growth, I want to make that really clear as well. But hey, you know, I think as lawyers, you know, I've seen it in this new AI-enabled world. Sometimes I think lawyers aren't great at looking at what they've done and said, well, that's not worked. We need to try something else. I think with AI, you know, one of the things to be very open that we've learned is we need to try a lot of things. Some things won't work and we need to put a stock to the things that won't work and pivot. And that's difficult sometimes for lawyers who are, you know, always driven to succeed. But, you know, trying things out, if they don't work, move on to the next one. But this is famously a culture that, you know, a lot of your big tech clients will adopt, doesn't it? You know, fail fast, test things, see what works. But as you've just said, most lawyers, that's very alien to them, isn't it? We have to get things perfect first time. And if we don't, that's an absolute disaster. You know, do you try and adopt that internally at Birdabird? This kind of, don't be afraid to fail a kind of approach. We try. So I think, you know, one of the things that I, I saw when I first took over is we had lots of fantastic ideas in the organization, but some of those ideas were being, were being lost in the organization. So one of the things that I thought I had to do first of all is create an innovation channel and innovation pathway to make sure that those ideas were really captured so that we could pursue those ideas that we thought were good ideas. But not all of those ideas work. And I think it's important, particularly for leaders, such as myself in the organization. So look, we tried this. It didn't work. So we are, we are going to pivot. So there's a bit of bit of leadership from the top as well to show that it's okay to fail. And when you say okay to fail, answer these internal projects, you know, there are some positives coming out of that. You have to make sure that you take those lessons learned as well. You have to make sure that you really tried to make it work. So it's not the case of if things fail that you don't take the learnings from them. Absolutely. You take all the positives from things that haven't worked. And you move forward and you get it right next time around. Yeah, you either win or you learn is, is, is, is, a nice way. I said great phrase. And, you know, having been in tech for, for many decades, you know, I've, I've also seen that as well. This, this concept of experimentation, which is how you get some of the mocking leading projects, products that are out there at the moment. Absolutely. You need, you need to do that in order to move forward as a global organisation. So in terms of, you know, reaching that, that revenue target, then, it feels like one of the aspects to that is, is probably additional international expansion. Since you've been CEO, wherever you are, and I think you've opened in Tokyo, ReAD, Lisbon, is, is that a cool part of it? What else can we expect from, from Bud and Bud? Yeah. So I think, you know, it's like concept of, you know, we're not growing for growth-sake. We're looking at where our clients need us. And all of the three that you've identified for all areas where our clients were asking us to establish a presence. And so it was absolutely client-led. And so those, those are working out really well. You know, tech-rich, data-rich, digital-rich areas where we can really help our clients push forward. So that, that geographical growth is really important. It's also making sure that, you know, in areas where we see real opportunity, backing ourselves and bolstering teams in, in pre-existing countries and pre-existing sectors as well. And that's what we have. How big is the Saudi opportunity? Just talk to me a little bit about that, because obviously, last three years, you know, international law firms have been sort of piling into Saudi Arabia, haven't they? And huge investment going into the country at the moment. And a lot of it, I guess, is geared towards digital infrastructure, which should be a natural place for someone like a burden. But is that the big opportunity for you? Spot-on. So I think if you look at Vision 2038, a massive amount of digitalisation going on, you know, a burden bird with its reputation and tech in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in other areas as well, you know, we believe that we can really help our clients in region or introduce clients to the region as well. So, you know, to be that, that firm that can really focus on those areas, really help clients in those areas to help them grow. I think is a, a fantastic opportunity for the firm. And I do see, I just, when I speak to people, they often say to me, "Now, no, Holly, what you need to understand is that the Middle East is not one single market, you know, it's very different." So even Dubai is different to Abu Dhabi, and Saudi Arabia is definitely different. to both of those, is that how you approach it as well out there? Yeah, so they are different markets. I mean, the head of the Saudi office has been working in that particular country or had links to that country since the late 1980s, I think. And so we've got somebody that's a real specialist. But I guess you could say the same thing about about Europe. People say, well, it's Europe, but of course, you dig down into Europe and it's lots of different countries with lots of different nuances and different cultures and different ways of doing business as well. So maybe just zooming out a bit and Christian, you know, we touched in a little bit. But what have you made? What are you making of the current wave of consolidation at the top of big law? You know, I guess primarily the transatlantic mergers that we're seeing. What do you sort of take from all of this and how is it shaping your own approach to growing budding budding? Yeah, so I think, I mean, you know, I think it's a response to market pressures. People are consolidating. I think from our perspective, you know, we've been responding to that by growing and growing within the countries that we operate in, and expanding out into those other countries that you mentioned, Oliver as well, and making sure that we're really well positioned to serve our client's aims in all those countries, you know, those sectors and practices that we're operating in. So I've got to ask you obviously, you know, I'm going to start asking every managing partner actually, you know, it is a merger. Are you are you looking at a merger at the moment? You know, is it something you would explore at budding bud? A merger in which country? Oh, okay. Well, let's let's start with the US, you know, that's the big one. Yeah, I mean, we've got a so we've got an office over in in San Francisco. That's that's working perfectly for us. I think, you know, we would never say no. I think is a very honest honest answer. I wouldn't want to do it just just for scale. There will be lots of things that we would need to look at, cultural fit, strategic fit, but at the moment we're we're very happy with what we have in in in San Francisco, Oliver. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe this was before you actually joined back in the day, Christian, but didn't bird and bird. It was kind of close to merging with Oric, wasn't it? A little while ago, it was before my time, Oliver. The reason I asked Christian is because there is a book out there and it's like the history of budding bird and you can actually find it on your website. Oh, honestly, I think it was published in 2010 or 12. Yeah, it does cover the period just before, but one of the chapters on there is about the the Oric sort of talks and the merging that that wasn't to be in the end, but I thought that was quite topical today, obviously, because that's very trendy around it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it is. As I say, you know, we would if somebody phone, we would listen to what they have to say, we're very happy with what we have in in San Francisco. It seems to be working well. And where are the other markets where you see big, big sort of growth at the moment? Obviously, you do bird and bird has a very deep kind of European footprint, doesn't it? And we've touched on some of the other offices that you've opened. Is there anywhere else that's particularly interesting to you? And I've always been interested in India, you know, budding bird and I joined, yeah, all those years ago gave me the opportunity to start going out to India a couple of times a year and I think it was 2008. I first started going out, lots of opportunities there, lots of tech opportunities, you know, fast forward to where we are now. India, fantastic country, fantastic organizations there that are really aligned to the sectors that we operate in whether that's, you know, life sciences or tech or energy, you know, financial services as well. So I've always been interested and passionate have to say about the India market. Obviously, they're they're looking at the rules at the moment and the regulatory requirements over there. I think there are lots of opportunities there as well. So that's one that I and I've been very vocal about that in the budding bird partnership as well. It's something that I keep a very close eye on. Now, I guess all of these initiatives generally need some investment, don't they, behind them, whether you're opening a new office, if you're investing in technology or whatever. Again, very topical theme at the moment is external capital, external investment into law firms. What's your thoughts on all of that? I mean, you know, it has its place. Some of the things that law firms need to do now, very capital intensive. And so there's been lots of talk out there in terms of PE, other sources of external funding as well. So I think it has its place as one of the ways in which law firms can, you know, invest and create value for their clients. And when you're talking about it internally or with other sort of law firm bosses, why do people, you know, think quite deeply about the kind of, let's call that private equity firm, for example, about that option? Because ultimately, it's just capital that you could go and get, you know, the money from the bank, for example, or maybe somewhere else. Was the specific appeal of a private equity firm or someone similar? I mean, it's not something that we're actively pursuing. I can be, I can be open about that. But it gives you that instant access to capital, flexible access in, in many, in many cases as well. You know, I think there are lots of discussions in, in the marketplace around it. At, at, at the moment, I'm not sure if there are many major international law firms that have taken that yet, but I guess we'll have to wait and see. No, no, for sure. And I guess, you know, when you are thinking about some of these big, well, it's, everyone's talking, there's lots of chatter at least, isn't there? About as you said, you know, the law firm of the future 10, 15, 20 years is going to look very different. So how are you going to fund, let's say, a big AI investment program, you know, current client announced, didn't they, a couple months back, this enormous sort of 500 million over 10 years type program. Do you, do you think, you know, is that the kind of investment that you think is required to kind of keep ahead when you're growing the law firm? So I think it's, it's not just about, so the investment in the tech is obviously really, really important. But the things that I've seen certainly come out of our, our experiences, tech is one part of it, but it's not the only part of it. And that's probably informed by, the fact that I was a tech lawyer for those three decades or so, it's also a, a people project as well. And so as well as investing in the tech, you also need to invest in the training of your people, you know, have the, have the appropriate governance, have the appropriate guardrails as well. And so I think you need to look at it holistically, Oliver, it's not just investment in the tech side of things, it's also making sure that you're investing in, in the people side of things as well. How, how do you think AI is changing will change the, the model for, for a big law firm like, like Bergenberg? Clearly, something that I take a real interest in, you know, given my, given my background, I think conversations moved on from within law firms from, from should we use AI to, to how best to use AI. I think when we look at, look at our journey, we see the, the importance of making sure, as I said, that you do have appropriate training, governance, and guardrails. When I talk to my people internally, you know, I'm still convinced that there's going to be a transformational pivot point over the next two or three years. So my commitment to our people, when I do my quarterly town halls is, is to say you're going to be the best trained lawyers in the world on AI, to make sure that you can achieve the ambitions for Bergenberg, but importantly, you can achieve your own personal ambitions as well. And so absolutely, there is a massive amount of investment that we're making in, in training, training our people. And that's training all of our people as well, not just focusing on individual cohorts, whether that's, you know, fear, and as, whether that's business services. Really important that our, our senior people get trained as well. I think one of the things that I'm absolutely clear on is, you know, our senior lawyers, those, those partners will be reviewing work created by associates, where AI has been used. So absolutely, they need to understand how that AI has been used. It's not just, you know, getting the answer out is checking the sources from that AI, AI is challenging the AI as well to mitigate the risk of this use and making sure that the, you know, answers that are produced are, are absolutely correct. So I think if you look at some of the, you know, the skills of future lawyers as well, whether that's legal automation, workflow analysis, day trial analytics is going to be a big one over the course of the next few years as well. Do you think that, you know, the traditional law firm pyramid will look, you know, probably the same in 10 years, or do you think it will be a bit of a different shape? So I think some people are saying it goes from a triangle to, to a cylinder. I think is what I've, I've heard in the, the, the, the commentary. And I think a large part of that is going to depend on the types of skills that your lawyers have. If you have broad-based skills, if you have skills, outside of that pure legal knowledge, it's going to be lots of opportunity for junior lawyers. I think I have an example which perhaps you agree with, perhaps you don't, Oli of, you know, my own experience in the mid 1990s. And it's one that I've used a few times before, where, you know, I was a newbie. qualified lawyer just at the time of massive growth of in-house legal teams. So a lot of the work that I would have been expected to do is actually being transferred in-house and of course in-house teams are incredibly sophisticated and they, you know, many don't do the type of work that I was doing as a newly qualified lawyer in the 1990s. But I think it serves as a good example. So a lot of that work went away and so it meant up-skilling, you know, it meant learning new skills. There's a big issue over that potential experienced gap in the future if you have newly qualified lawyers who don't have that that work necessarily coming through so you need to make sure that your lawyers have that experience and that could mean more training. It couldn't mean things like going on comments to clients for example to get that experience as well. So, you know, that happened to me in the 1990s where there was this big shift in legal working in where value could be created by extern lawyers. And so it's a different, you know, AI-enabled world now to all those decades ago, but that fundamental challenge I think is exactly the same. Yeah, so in summary, it's very difficult to sort of protect the obviously with a degree of certainty over what things will look like. Because as you said, there will probably in five to ten years be new roles that we haven't actually really thought of yet, or appearing. And if you're legally qualified, you know, you will fit those quite nicely. So it's those. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the, you know, the calculator, you know, didn't damage that, you know, particularly industry, if you look at some of the Excel spreadsheets that came out as well, people were at the time, whether that would, well, they were calling out the end of that was supposed to be the end of accountants, wasn't it, when Excel came out in the 80s or something. And then since that point, accountants, you firms have, have boomed, have never been bigger. So, exactly. You know, I think there were always going to be opportunities for the right firm. I mean, that's perhaps what I would say. And I'll try not to make this too self-serving for Burnburn, make it more industry specific. Those law firms that have a sector-focused approach, in my view, are really well placed in an AI-enabled world. Because what those firms have is that deep sector judgment and knowledge of the sector that they're operating in. They understand the nuances. They understand some of the ways at different organisations within those sectors interact. It's that knowledge, it's that judgment. I think firms at a sector-enabled have a massive competitive advantage. And it goes back to the point I made earlier on, you know, the comment I made about if you'll perceive to be a generic law firm. For example, I have a, you know, I'd have a real fear if I was perceived as a generic law firm how AI would affect me. So, perhaps it goes back to your earlier point in your earlier challenge. You're my worried. The Burnburn is known about, you know, specific things, specific practices or sectors, you know, absolutely not. I think over the next five to ten years, as we see, you know, AI become more embedded into not just law, but into professional services firms, those law firms at a sector driven absolutely have the best chance of not just surviving, but actually thriving in that AI-enabled world. So, as the leader then of Burnburn, is there anything that kind of keeps you up at nicer tool Christian? I think it's a very difficult time to be a leader of professional services firm, you know, there are geopolitics out there. Global economics are impacted by that by geopolitics. If you overlay onto that AI in the massive amount of disruption, you know, it perhaps doesn't keep me up. What I'm looking for are the opportunities, how Burnburn can best serve its clients, best service, it's people as well, in what is a time of, you know, unparalleled disruption. I think, you know, I feel, I feel comforted, as I say, I keep on going back to my tech background, my tech credentials. I really understand this stuff. I really understand how it affects professional services firms. So, what I'm doing as a leader is trying my best to put us in in absolutely the best possible place going forward. Okay, well, the best of luck in your second term then Christian. I hope it all goes well. Thanks a lot. Really nice to speech as well, really appreciated.