Chris Young (on being sentenced to life in prison)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to our expert experts on expert. I'm Dak Shepherd. And this is Lily Padman, everybody. Everybody. It's me. Welcome everybody. This is the most inspirational episode of the year. Oh my goodness. Fuck am I delighted we got to meet this, this young man. I guess he's to me is a young man. Chris Young, uh, crazy story ever. Chris Young is an author and a public speaker. And he has a memoir out now called the wound is where the light enters about serving two life sentences, uh, for something he did at 22. That was not violent. Yeah. It's, um, an incredible story. It's so inspiring. It's very Victor Frankel, man, search for meaning. It's really important. It is. I agree. Please listen to this one. Yeah. Please enjoy Chris Young. (Music) Chris, my name's brother Dak. Nice to meet you. Oh, so excited. You smelled the light for. Hi. Yeah. Were you offered everything? You want coffee? I tried to drink a gallon of, uh, a gallon a day. No, no, a gallon a day. Wow. How do you break that up? Carrying a gallon jug of water. You do. Yeah. And what did with people ask you questions when you got the gallon? It's funny. You said that because I used to be embarrassed when I first started. But I knew it was the most convenient and efficient way for me to get what I needed in me. Yeah. Yeah. And so after a while, I got past it because it was a conversation started. Right. I carried around the gallon of water in high school. This is the most hellbilly thing I ever did. We had well-watered. I didn't like anyone else's water. So everywhere I went, I had a fucking gallon of water and I was going, "Look so bizarre." And people hate well-water. What does it taste like? It's like more minimally, you know, like you can taste it. Yeah. Yeah. You had only city water. I tried not to drink tap water at all because I went so long of drinking nothing but tap water. Oh, yeah, your prison water. Exactly. It's going to be that dark green tap water. Yeah. But I know what you mean because when I drink beet juice, I feel like I can taste the earth. Oh, yeah. And I like to drink it on purpose because it helps with the rear blood cells and me having sickle cells. Yeah. Explain sickle cell to everybody. Sickle cell inemia is a genetic mutation that the body was attempting to adapt to malaria and prevent from having to deal with the effects of malaria. It affects mainly people from Mediterranean areas or African descent. Because of genetic, you have to be born with it. And I have the form that is called SC. You have SS and you have SC. Each form affects the patient's totally different. But what sickle cell is, simple in playing your rear blood cells, go from a circle shape to a sickle shape. And that hook form of your blood cells makes them get clogged and occluded in your veins, which makes your body hurt. Imagine your blood not flowing, not pumping. It's like you got all clogged up in your engine. Your engine is going to get the coffin. Your muffler is going to get the lead now black smoke. But this is happening with your body. And sickle cell is interesting in that instead of being dominant or recessive, it's co-dominant. So if mom has the healthy gene and dad has this co-dominant sickle cell, you can make a split. Normally one gene is going to be prevalent, you know, make all sickle all normal. But this one allows you to make some sickle in some non. And when people have both of those recessive and then they're making only sickle cell, then they're really in trouble, yeah. Exactly. Because you can have the trait. You don't have the full disease, but you can still have some of the consequences as he was just saying. And that's what Dax was explaining. But when you have the full disease, it's because both parents had the trait, such as in my case, both of my parents had the trait. So I got the full disease. I didn't realize until reading your book that you can have spells of it. Like it comes on and goes off. Like you have different periods where it's kind of what we would think of as inflamed. What causes those and how long did those periods last? So in the lexicon and parlance of people that's dealing with it, we call them attacks. Okay. But the professionals call them crises. Okay. So the sickle cell crises can be triggered by anything, such as dehydration, it can be triggered by stress. So you took the words up. No, no, no, no. Actually, I was going to make that last because that has been my biggest trigger. I literally just got over a severe crises where I had to get a exchange blood transfusion. And that is basically they suck a lot of my blood out and put in somebody else's blood because my body wouldn't stop creating the sickle blood. And I really don't have the crises as frequently as other people. But I've had really extreme consequences from it. Both of my hips are fake. No. And I need to get my shoulders replaced also because the joints of deteriorated so much from that. Exactly. Because your body, her body, anybody's body, when you need new red blood cells, it takes it from the marrow in your bone. Now to mention when the blood's not flowing, now the bone is not getting oxygen and blood flow. So it's two different ways that it's lean to deterioration. I think the triggers and catalysts of stress will always be there to the extent that you stress is up to you. Yeah. How am I managing that stress? Exactly. Exactly. And so with me, this past two months, because I'm a strong believer in the power of my mind, mentally, I was on top of everything. But eventually, that energy of having a rust with them thoughts will manifest. And my body was like, Hey, you know what? You know what? Fuck you. Fuck you. We're going to take you down for a minute. That part. The body said, I need to reset. And if I put your ass in the hospital, you ain't got no choice but to reset. Yeah, the body weirdly protects you sometimes, even when it feels like it's trying to kill you. How long will the crises or attacks last? Or when you were a kid, how long would they last? When I was a child, they would last two, three days and it would be non-stop pain because the blood's not flowing. So I can't move. I'm running a fever because technically, I'm inflamed in my whole body because the blood's not flowing. So that leads to inflammation and it leads to a fever. I would just cry. Imagine a child who is living with technically a stranger. As much as I love Big Mama, I got adopted by older lady in our neighborhood that everyone revered and called Big Mama. So Big Mama adopted me and my brother. I was 10 years old. He was 13 and she already had six kids living with her. So it's nine of us in a 800 square foot house. Oh my god. So each of you got less than 100 square feet? Exactly. And so I'm sitting there crying, wishing I had my mama, wishing I had a daddy because I never knew my biological father, never even seen a picture of him, never met him. But my mother's husband, he did try and when they divorced, that's when my mama really just spiraled out of control. And she was in root, which helped with the. Exactly. Unfortunately, she was already addicted. Clarksville, Tennessee, we just built the house on the Cumberland River two years ago. So it runs through your backyard the Cumberland. It does. It does. Where is it in the state? Is Eastern Nashville or West? We're Northwest. Just barely Northwest. There was more just straight north. We're 45 minutes if you try to speed limit. But I've gotten from Nashville to Clarksville in 30 minutes. Okay. And are you getting close to Kentucky at that point? We're actually on the Tennessee Kentucky Stateline. Oh, no kidding. Yes. Is Bowling Green on the other side? Bowling Green is Middle Kentucky. So it's more North Eastern of Clarksville. Got you. And I actually was already making memories in Bowling Green from being a young promiscuous man. But I had to sit in their county jail for four years. Oh my god. Bowling Green? Yes. Oh, no kidding. Because they have a contract with the marshals. And so when I was being held to go back and forth to federal court, I was in Warren County Regional jail in Bowling Green Kentucky. And I can't imagine there were any field trips to the Corvette Museum. I used to look out the window and just see the sign and just be yearning for a day to not only drive any car. You can be a Honda Civic, a little longer Corvette. So from zero to two, it's just you and your older brother, Robert, right? He's two years older than you. Three years. Yes. So at two or three, we all move in with Mickey. And mom starts dating him. You guys move from downtown Clarksville and some projects to kind of a nice area in the north side. Yes. So tell me about Mickey. What kind of dude was he? Mickey was the sale on the boat amongst the storm, giving us still some stability and some direction. Unfortunately, because the captain of the boat likes to make sure all the sailors listen. He was controlling to an extent that as a child, I couldn't perceive it as that. I just understood that everybody's complaining about mama. What is mama doing so wrong? But then I'm also seeing that when they're complaining about mama, Mickey wants to complain with his fists. So to this day, I consider Mickey my daddy, the only man that ever tried. So I love and revered him for giving an effort. I'm not his biological child. He could have said, "F me." Even when they start dating, not to mention once they got divorced. Because even though they got divorced and we moved and went through all the hardships we went through, people gossiped. And once the gossip got around, that it was being so hard on us that I was going to school with holes in my shoes, that I was going to school with two little or two big clothes. Not only did my brother push his pride to the side and reach out to Mickey, Mickey had made it possible for them to communicate and he came back around. And he was trying to help. Yeah, he was a dude who worked at the Post Office, right? He never missed a day of work. His car broke. He walked five miles. So, In some ways, yeah, he's like a rock. And then clearly he's in over his head with this relationship and everything else that's going on. And he doesn't act his best. And yeah, it starts to get violent. Your mom was kind of a badass, right? And her day. Yeah. She was blessed to have a father who got his hustle on. My granddaddy was about his business and he got to the money. You know, my granddaddy had successful furrow home, but then he bought and acquired other furrow homes and then other small businesses just trying to pursue all his entrepreneurial instincts. And so my grandfather made sure my mother was raising a good environment and at the same time, good environment that line gets blurred due to the fact this is the 60s and the 70s. So black people are only allowed in certain areas. And so he got money, but you want to interact with who you're allowed to interact with, which is other black people. You're going to be in the hood, you're going to be around certain things. And so by the time cocaine and crack came along, my mother's the pretty girl who all the hustlers are hollering it, everybody's flirting with, and she let fun become something they ruined her. Yeah. But she was tough. She liked to fight. She was helping out and repeating to you guys. You shouldn't ever let anyone put their hands on you. Yeah. So after one of these beatings in your present for it, she grabs a butcher knife and what happens? Yeah. So I forgot to shout out my grandmother. I'm named after my maternal grandmother, Miss Christine Hooker. And Christine was known to gamble and carry a knife in a gun. And my mama learned from her and my mama named me after my grandmother. She died on my mother's 21st birthday. She died from cancer on mama's birthday, January 27th, 1984. And so grandma had always taught mama to protect herself no matter what. If you can't open with your hands, you grab a weapon, and that's something that mama embraced wholeheartedly. And so one morning, her Mickey had been going back and forth and she said, "You know what, I ain't taking no more slaps or punches. I'm finna kill him." And she pulled me and Robert together. We crying, screaming, "She's hugging us." And I was also telling her, "Shut up and tell us suck it up." And when you hear us get into it, when you hear the tussle, go call your granddaddy. And tell him I killed Mickey exactly, verbatim, meaning this is what's coming y'all. I know. And are you guys like, "No, don't do that." And you're what, five and eight at this time? I'm about seven because this is the last episode, so I'm seven, and my brother's 10. And so imagine seeing your mother already wept up, bruised up, a little bloody, and she's telling y'all for no murder, somebody that you love. I love Mickey. Everything's so fucking confusing. Exactly. Mickey's a good dude, but how's he also hitting my mom like trying to make peace with this? Exactly. Preach. Yeah. Imagine a child trying to sort these thoughts out. And then this is happening real time, so you don't have the space to be patient to organize the thoughts. Yeah. You got to react. Yeah. And in that moment of reacting, when we seen her storm out, and then we also heard the screaming afterwards, we knew she carried out her promise, but by the time I hit the corner, I see blood dripping down Mickey, but I also see him stomping the hell out of her. I see a grown man's foot coming up and down, and my brother Robert being the brave one the older one, he took off running towards the fight. I took off running at the door. Oh. Yeah, mine was like watching completely paralyzed with fear, thinking, "Oh, wow, she's gonna die." That's a real specific moment. And dad's already gone, so where are we going, you know, where are we going when the dust settles from this? And just the deep fucking amasculation of wanting to protect my mom and not having the courage or size or strength is set me on a fucking trajectory for the rest of my life. I'm still dealing with that moment. Them inner child wounds. Yeah. I'm glad that you're conscious of them to heal from them, but I wasn't for a long time. Yeah. That feeling helpless, that feeling emasculated, but then also knowing that I am a man and knowing I do have the nuts to stand up. It led me to taking what Master P was rapping about as, "Now only a real fact of life, but it was also entertainment to me embodying it and naming myself soldier and literally being on the front lines every time." And is the C? You were soldier C. soldier C. Was that for Chris? Yes. Okay. I was looking for the people at home and spelled S-O-U-L-J. A. Yep. Yeah. So it's like soldier boy. Yeah. But I was before. Yes, everything. I'm older than him and I was naming myself that before. You started it. You started it. No, you know, when he came out, you know, I used to get in the club and nod my head, but I was really like, "I hate the fact he's famous and I'm not." But, you know, I was a young man and you don't know better, but yeah, when I got older, I realized that I am is the most powerful thought that you can have, or I am thought. Because then whatever you follow that I am with, you are literally manifesting it because you will embrace that mentality and your mentality equals your reality. So me saying I'm a soldier, I am literally putting myself in harm's way because I'm saying I'm within the right. Whatever the situation is, let's go. But I realized also I was spelling it a certain way because I was putting my soul in my whole heart, my whole being into anything I was choosing. So I had to finally realize, okay, there's the added shame of when you're that fucking family on the street. That embarrassed me. There's shame. Yes. The spectacle. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You're trying to like make friends and get girls and like you're the fucking house on the block. And you said that exactly how you said it because making friends and environment where you're the butt of the joke most of the time is a hell of a complex situation. Like now that I'm older and I have tried to heal from a lot of things when I talk with my fiance, she's like, you got bullied and you know, in my mind, I didn't look at it like that. And then some of them say, it's weak. Exactly. Exactly. And then in my mind, those same guys are now my brothers too, but when you're going around with holes in your shoes and you musky and you stinky kids don't know about it. It's like, oh, you stink. I look at your shoes. Your mom's a crack hat. That's a funny jacket with the biggest joke. That led to my first fighting school. I never forget his name. I'm never going to say his name, but he was a heavy-set white guy and he literally happened to just see my mom one day and he wouldn't let it go. And we sit in lunch and he and another guy cracking jokes and he said, your mom's a big fat bitch and Bob, I hit him so hard and blood just started oozing down his nose. But that was a guy I didn't have to see every day. The guys are my neighborhood. I got to see every day and they also are the same guys that I kind of look up to. I kind of love, but I also know they supply my mama with drugs. Yeah. God, it's so complicated. So that transition from, I don't know, it's not clearly detailed in the book, but clearly mom partied here and there, but there becomes this period where your mom misses the project. She misses downtown. You guys are in a nice kind of area. But she misses it. So you guys always hang out at your uncle's, baby mama's house. Yeah. Re? Yep. It's a good time there, right? You go downtown. There's kids everywhere. There's family members. The ladies are playing cards. And you start noticing like moms not playing cards with everyone. She's out. Remember at that age, I know it's hard to remember, but were you theorizing like what was going on or are you just not overthinking them? Yes, I actually asked my cousin, Kudas, whose re-son and he was eight years older to me. I'm six, seven, eight. So he's 14, 15, 16 and my brother's three years older me, so my brother's 19, 11 and we're on the bed listening to music, playing the video game and I said, what's that shit? That phrase right there is what I always heard the adults mention when they was negatively talking about my mother. That she's chasing that shit. She's chasing that shit. And I was like, what's that shit? Because I'm one and one where she's at. She's not in there. Like you said, everybody's in her playing cards listening to music and she's gone and every time they would always say, she's gone chasing that shit, that girl gonna let that shit ruin her. That girl got that shit on her mind so bad she ain't even here for these kids. So I didn't theorize, I asked a question. I didn't realize it at the time but I was inquisitive and I didn't know how to embrace it. I just knew people I would tell me, shut the hell up. You asked to tune in the question and be quiet. Drugs is a big concept too when you're young. That's why now that I'm free and not only free, but have some good things going for me. I never hold anything against anyone but I haven't forgotten anything about anyone. So a lot of adults and a lot of people want to come back around as if, you know, I'm your uncle or I'm your cousin or you know, you wasn't when I was living in electricity and no running water. You wasn't when I was incarcerated with two life sentences. So you know, I'm not mad at you, but it's a convenient time for you to be involved but now it's easy. So did he tell you he said it's drugs? No. They told me quick. Okay. Yeah, my cousin was like boy watch your mouth and my brother punch me. That was his way of trying to give me an order. He will punch me in my arm. Quit hitting me. That's the first thing I'm going to come out of my mouth, but I'm still one. - What is that shit? - Yeah, yeah. - Nobody told me what that shit is. You're constantly in these situations where people are talking terribly about your mother and even if you know it all about your mother, it hurts so bad. Your grandpa would talk really shitty about your mom. - Yeah. - His daughter. - As much as I revered my grandfather for his entrepreneurial skills and for his material things, him as a person I was too young to really get a chance to know. I knew him well enough where I was sad when he passed. I knew him well enough where this is granddaddy and I feel a sense of excitement when he comes around. And pride he's your grandpa, he's a big dog. - Exactly. - He's the king of fucking Clarkson. But I never knew him enough to make a conscious decision where you're like, I'm not finna be around my grandfather no more. The person I did do that with that was candid in a way that I hated was Big Mama. One day after I'm having one of my sickle cell crises, the kids that we live with that I perceive as cousins now. But back then they just people we live with. They're picking on me. They're talking and laughing about, "Oh, Robert, help me. Mama, I want my mama." Oh. - That's right. - That's right. - That's right. - So cruel. - Yeah. - It's like it's cruel, yeah. And making fun of me for calling for my mama. And I'm like, you couldn't deal with that pain. If you had to go through a sickle cell tag, you couldn't deal with the pain. And then they're like, I'm not even talking about the pain. I'm talking about you calling for Penny. Penny's not here. You know she's not here, but I'm a child. And this is my source of empowerment, my source of protection for so many years. And now that's gone, now that's stripped away from me. No matter how many years I've watched her decline, I just know now that I'm in this moment of pain, I need someone and for years that had been that person. And when the kids are making fun of me, I go to fight one of them. I go to stand up, I'm from the run over there. And Big Mama must have been close listening. She hit the corner. She grabbed me and they right. I don't know what the fuck you calling for your mama for. If she wanted you, you will be with her. She don't want you. - God. - And I got the crime. I got so mad I wanted to fight Big Mama so bad. - So hurt. - And it hated Big Mama for so many years. And she thinks she's helping you move past it and accept reality. And her mind is like, this is the reality. If your mama wanted you, you wouldn't be with me. - Yeah, that's not a reality we ever need to. - It's also not real. - No. - It's so much more nuanced than that. - Thank you, you're right. - Like it's not like, oh, she doesn't want you. So that's why she, no, she's an addict. Like that there's so much to it. - Major terminal disease. - Yes, exactly. - That she's gonna choose over herself. So yeah. - She's gonna choose it over everything. - You said it best. - Yeah, as an addict, I know people are like, they're confused by people not showing up for their family. Like, wow, you choose your addiction over your family. It's like, well, y'all, I choose it over myself. - Exactly. - I'm killing myself. I already declared I'm gonna destroy this thing. So you're shocked that I also, yeah, I mean, that's where we're at. If I'm imploding, you can only imagine if you around, and you're gonna get this of this blast, you're gonna be a part of this. But Big Mama was my anchor, my rock, my foundation. She was my heart. - What were the events that let you live in there? - Mommy and Mickey, she stabs Mickey, Mickey beats her up. I go call the police. By time the police come, they arrest her. And I'm like, what, I'm panicking. I'm like, I called y'all, he's beating her up. They like, she used the weapon. - She's going to jail, I don't do that. - She go to jail, we go with my granddaddy for a few days. You know, they eventually make her bond. And my granddaddy had gifted my mother a house. This house happened to be in the middle of the hood, though. We get to live in there, and that's when Mama really just spied her out of control. And she quit paying the bills, the lights on water get cut off. And she had another boyfriend that lived in an even smaller house that beat her ass even worse than Mickey. - This Roger? - Yes. - And Roger was fucking enormous, right? - Exactly. - The 280, 510, looks like a linebacker. He works for the city. - You took the words right out of my mouth. He's literally the spitting image of image smith in the face. And about the size of a brand air lacquer back in the day. - Uh-huh, uh-huh, just a monster. But he's partying, but he's still going to work. - I mean, he's got a constitution, though. - Roger was a functioning addict to the point where he ain't gonna miss work. But after work, he's going to get drunk. He's gonna get high. He drunk to the point he's falling around, but somehow. He's gonna get up and clocking and everywhere there's time to go to work. And so, you know, that relationship was very abusive and sane. - She stabbed him, too. - Yes. - Oh, yeah. - Yes. - Nairly avoided getting arrested at that time. - Yeah, but they still issued the warrant. After me and Robert cried and screamed enough, the empathy kicked in. And they was like, you know, go handle them. You gotta do some of these kids. But just know that you do have a warrant for your arrest. - Turn yourself into my morning. - Yeah. - What she did not do. - I moved back to her house with no lights and no water. For two years, you guys live in that house? - Yes. - With no lights and no water, yeah. - Just you, too? - No. - My mother was there, but she wasn't there. - Right, right. - She was there physically when she needed to be and she wasn't there none mentally. - No water for two years? - Yes. Can you imagine if you wake up in the middle of the night? Not only is there no lights, but I got smarter if I start carrying a lighter in my pocket. So, I can strike my lighter to get to the bathroom, but I gotta preemptively cover my nose because when I lift the lid of this toilet, it's three people's feces from three different days of using the toilet. - And dudes are in and out of that place probably partying with mom or no. - I know this is not the best nomenclature and I don't use this phrase now, but we call them smokers. So yes, people that got high, like my mom, they would come and get high with her. - Take a shit in your toilet with no water. - Yeah. - The house was very derelict and very wretched and big mama, the older lady in our neighborhood that everybody already loved and knew she came one day and she was like, you know, y'all gonna go with me and mama was like, yeah, and I'm like, for how long? And big mama was like, for how long you need to. And I'm like, now for how long? I don't wanna be away from my mama. As much as I'm mad at mama, as much as I hate what she's choosing, this is still mama. You have a primal connection to your mother 'cause whether you're worried or not, you're literally the division of her sales. - You're on her, yes. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just love Robert and he's such a fucking sweet brother and he's got way too much on his shoulders and again, reading his story made me so sympathetic to my older brother too. It's like they're doing everything you're doing and then also they have on their shoulders that they're the father. - Exactly. - Right, they gotta be your father too. - Man. - I'm writing a memoir myself and I text my brother after having to write some passage about him and I just wrote him and I said, dude, you did such a good job. Thank you. - Absolutely. - I'm gonna call me a pirate. - I'm gonna call me a jet. - He's gonna hear that for a while. - But it's good that you got to the point where you did it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 'Cause some people get to that point and skip it and don't really last to embrace the moment. - Well, I was just, I'm locked into my own experience but it's like you just did it, right? It's like forcing and tell other people's story and your story forces empathy on to you, forces perspective. Like when you really gotta sit there and think like, oh fuck, what was Robert thinking about in this equation? All those things plus he gotta protect you. He's watching Mom get beat to death and she just stabbed somebody and you're in the mix and he's responsible for you. - And he gotta think about man, Chris need something to eat tonight. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I'm thinking I'm hungry. - Yeah, exactly. - Exactly. - And you ain't think about anybody else's hunger but Chris is. - Exactly, exactly. - Exactly, exactly. - So I'm here to be vulnerable. I'm here to be candid. But my mother's brother, with me being free now and me living a certain way now. He wanted to come back into my life and that's cool. I don't have nothing against you. But within it, he wanted to try to dictate a celebration that me and my fiancee just had and invite people that we weren't inviting. And he's like, where their family? I'm like, no, they're not family. We might share some DNA somewhere but family is a verb. They've never treated me like family. I could care less about that DNA. - Weirdly, Minky was more of a family. - Thank you, Minky. And we sure know DNA. And Minky was definitely more family. And I said, I brought that up because I had to kind of check my uncle and as I'm checking him in the midst of it, he happened to say something negative about Robert. And I'm like, hey, hold on. You never can understand what that man went through because one, you had a mama and a daddy that had money. Exactly. This man didn't have a mama nor a daddy and on top of that head to look out for me. Then turn around and make it a child himself when he was 16. That's a lot for you, man. Not to mention then he jumped in the streets. And that come with his own set of circumstances. - I just want to mention quickly, you are a great student though, throughout all this. - Thank you, I appreciate you for thinking that. - You're getting A's. - You're like the only kid in your group that can be reporting that you're getting A's. - And people are like, how's he getting A's? - Yeah. 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(upbeat music) When does Robert start getting sucked into street life and then when do you start? What's that trajectory? The murder of my cousin, Kudus. When Kudus got murdered, I was 10. And Robert was 13 and that's when I consciously knew, okay, he smokes weed. Because he didn't want to go to the firm with us. He wanted to ride with the older guy, the other guys. Because you know, there's no smoke weed, listen to music and when he got to the firm, I know that I'm like, he high. I know what weed is by this time and then I'm dappin' too. I'm a child, I don't got access. He's 13 and he actually has access. He's starting to probably use it to regulate. Self-medicating, exactly. But he also had an interest, he, back then, you know, we didn't have the weed of today. It's not the weed of yesterday. And so back then, if you got some drool as we called it, when you didn't have no seeds and it was a surgery, it was actually truly grew with the hydroponic system, blah, blah, blah. I said that because most of the time, guys are gonna have weed with seeds. My brother would take the seeds and actually grow some weed. And a lot of people did that, but I could see he truly had an interest in it. But he's not around anyone that can tell him, "Hey, you can be a botanist." - Right. - No one is telling him. - He never met anyone that is exact, so biology or anything. - Exactly, there's nobody, the guy in direct tool. - Yeah, my tool. - Except to, "Hey, you want some money? "You need some money. "This is how you can get some money." And that is slowly, but for sure, I started to notice he was selling drugs because he popped up with a new CD player. And I'm green, I'm a child. I'm like, "How you get this?" And he like, such and such gave it to me. And I'm like, "Gather it to you." He's like, "Yeah, I'm not knowing." No, he traded it for some drugs. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. He gave me that. I gave him some weed. - Crack, crack, crack, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But Robert jumped in the streets when he was about 13 when I was 11. First time I saw some drugs. And it was just some weed, but that we slowly but for sure, we became consistent. And by the time it got consistent, I'm seeing Robert and everybody else in my neighborhood go from being kids with not as bad attires I have, but to a little decent attire, to now only a little decent attire. And now they got cars. And now only do they got cars. Now they got necklaces and gold teed in Jordan's. Exactly. - But can you imagine having control for the first time in your life? Like how are you communicating? - Yeah. - We all would do it. That's the thing that's like it's so frustrating when people are judgmental. No one wouldn't be doing that. - Yeah, anyone that wants to survive? - Yeah. - Anyone who wants to survive on it? - Any opportunity. - It'll happen even when you're not realizing you're choosing it. It's like being a cast away stuck at sea. You know you can't drink seawater. You know the salt is in here, but you're dying a thirst. - Yeah. - And the same way with a child, a teenager, you know you shouldn't sell drugs. You know eventually you might get arrested. Then you're seeing people get arrested. You're like, all right, the odds of me getting arrested is pretty high, but you're dying a thirst. - No choice. - And like you said, you're like, you want to survive. And so eventually you're gonna drink this seawater. And then you might do art the first date and the second day and then eventually you're in the back of a police car. - Yeah. - Well the other thing is I think from the outside people would think, oh you declare I'm gonna be a drug dealer. That's such a huge decision. But that's not what happens. Little tiny things happen. And then the frequency of the little tiny things happen that all feel like one-offs. And at some point you have to look around and evaluate and go like, oh, I'm a drug dealer, right? Or am I wrong? - No, you're right. - And then all of a sudden you recognize, oh, I do this kind of a lot and I guess I am this. Your self-protection prevents you from acknowledging what's happening in some weird way. - Yeah, like your body's composed of a bunch of cells. And then those cells are composed of subatomic particles but they all come together to make organs. Then the organs come together to make a body. Them different decisions, one by one, make you into, and like I said earlier, the most powerful thought you can have is I am. So those little decisions end up adding up to saying, oh, I am a street dude, I am a dope boy. I am a gangster. - Yeah. - And eventually you get to that point of you walking down the street, you got some drugs in your pocket and you're super nervous every time she's some headlights. It's like it's the police, the police, the police. And then it's to the point where the police are pull up and talk to you. And you got a fully loaded 45 on your hip and I ounce in your back pocket and you like, what's up, man? - Shoot the shit. - Yeah, exactly. Because they know you, you know them and just like, you ain't got no problem because right now either you can be an asshole and do some, that you know he's illegal, but you probably can still justify it on or you gonna just act like it's a normal day. I'm in my hood, you doing your job. It becomes that cat and mouse. So like, okay, we co-exist in this weird dynamic. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - What age is Robert circuit in the trouble? - When did he get arrested for the first time? - The first time Robert gets arrested, he's probably 14, 15. I'm gonna say 14. It's a couple of young guys standing on the block and this particular police wanted to jump out. And instead of them playing it cool to see how you react because you know every action has a reaction, they just straight run. So when they run, he catches Robert and he dumps him on his face and some rocks and Robert came home. His whole face was scratched up and Robert didn't even have no real drugs. He had some fake drugs. And so they just called Big Mama at the station. She went into the station and they let him go. That was his first arrest, but his first true charge. He's 19, I'm 16. And by this time, as you said, the small decisions have led up to, I'm a full-fledged drug dealer. This is what I'm doing, day in, day out. And this is what he's doing, day in and day out. But we're making it easier for the police because we're doing it out of a house that we also live in. - Not idea. - Partying. - And one without a shopper. - Exactly. - Took my shit more yeet. - Thank you. - Exactly. It's a front house with ounces of crack going in and out daily. So you know, they kick in the door and all the drugs in their mind. Me being a juvenile, Robert being the adult, he claimed everything as he is. Kept me out of trouble. But that decision and choice to try to keep his little brother out of trouble was also one of the inflection points in his life. That led to some of the most stressful moments of his life. - He already had the baby or is about to have a baby. - Yes, my niece at this time is two years old, finna be three. By this time she's walking, laughing and saying that in. It was torture for him. He didn't make it to prison, but he spent his last 18 months of his life in the county jail. - And then he died by suicide. - Yes, unfortunately. - And the house that my grandfather gifted my mother, that house was a gift in a curse. - 12 or six vine street, AK, the Boulevard. The Boulevard is a name that I don't think anybody that was in Clarkshire in the early 2000s will forget between my mother's drug usage, other people's drug usage, then me and my brother's drug selling. And then the other guys in my neighborhood drug selling the house became a staple of our neighborhood. Everybody knew about it, everybody would do something to get it in some way shape form of fashion. And my brother laid on the couch and with my gun that I literally just took off my hip that I usually would never put down, not even if I'm going to the restroom or to the shower. I happen to take it off my hip because I had just got arrested the week before. And I'm like, where I'm going, I don't need it. And I don't want to take any more risks and chances. And he took his life with it, yeah. January 1st, 2007. - Ah, so horrible. - That's fucking brutal. - It is. - Yeah. It was so traumatic and so hard like it's a memory that is intoxicating. It's almost like I take a hallucinogen just remembering those next 72 hours because between me I really smoke in a shitload of weed daily and then his death and then mixing the Remy Martin. It was so convoluted to the point where I don't even really remember sleeping. And when I do remember sleeping, I remember waking up. Like in this gotta be the dream. The dream and the sleep I'm praying and hoping was real and not when I'm waking up to. But eventually I had to push off the intoxication. I had to push off the pain and I had to organize a funeral. - How'd you know not to try crack? - Watching Penny. A lot of people watch and they still follow. And unfortunately my brother was one. He literally admitted, I wanted to know why mama put this before everything. Like I literally was curious. He was like, I had been curious and knew I shouldn't do it. But then one day I couldn't get no good weed 'cause by this time we get money. So by this time, like I said, right now, if somebody buys some weed, it's not bad. We technically all weed is good nine days because of the way that I put back in. It was a good and a bad and he was like, I couldn't find no good weed. And I had always wondered what it was like. And I had some crumbs and I just put the crumbs in the joint with the weed and tried it. And for me, I never wanted to experiment because the stigma, I will admit and look in the mirror and take that I was very judgmental. But now I realize all people are sinners and we sin in a way that we're comfortable with. And then some people choose to judge those that's sin in a way that they're uncomfortable with. Yeah, but not to let you off the hook entirely. We got to add when you have nothing to acquire status and you're low-wrong on everything Some moral superiority can keep you afloat You are it's like you're searching for anything that confirms that I'm not the same piece of shit as I think everyone out You know like you just kind of got to for survival think there's something special about yourself and that kind of can lead to moral superiority I mean, I don't know you're also smart. Maybe there is something that just that straight-a-brain was just like I'm not doing that That's where I draw the line there or something. Well, thank you. I thank y'all and I definitely know war gives Tools that peace could never give and peace gives a perspective that war could never give being caught up in that dynamic day in and day out for Most of my childhood definitely had me Believe in okay. I am not gonna be a thief But I'm gonna be the biggest dope boy I can be I'm not gonna be a mass murderer But nobody's gonna fuck with me and if they do they're gonna have to face the consequence And so you do create this moral code that no matter how flawed it is it is your compass We can tell ourselves a lot of shit. Yeah. When did that news reach mom and what was the reaction? My mom was locked up. She was in the county jail. She had been there for the past Five six months because she had a year sentence and Usually when you don't go to the actual prison when you just have small sentences like that They'll give you two for once which is basically for every day you do where counted is two days as long as you keep a job in the jail So she was incarcerated and she had been in the county jail for about five maybe six months and big mom on Took it upon herself to do whatever the process was she reached out to somebody downtown They could get in touch with the judge and the judge eventually signed off and gave her time search to release her to make sure She could come to Robert's funeral. Oh, wow. I never forget it. I Was in big mom's front room and I hear somebody coming down the street without his crying and screaming and just making a scene unfortunately you can probably walk down Hollywood Boulevard and see somebody doing it or a sunset boulevard and so I hear somebody coming down the street being hysterical and I look out the door and it's my mom and so you know She comes and she had to Be in a cell and get the news to hate not only is your son there But it's the reason why we're even releasing you you really got a few more weeks. Yeah You get arrested twice what 16 first? I got arrested when I was 17 and that sent me to the juvenile detention facility for how long a month and a half Okay, I was that experience not as bad as you thought it was gonna be or worse or what you thought a prophecy coming true Kudas actually told me One time that if I keep acting and thinking how I was thinking and acting that I would be going to juvenile detention It was when you were declaring yourself soldier C to them. Yeah, I had seen Kudas cry After he was arrested for an attempted murder charge that ultimately he was Released because the charges were dropped because he didn't do it, but at that time I'm just a young child in a courtroom with my mom and my auntie and I see the person that I think is the pinnacle of being cool The pinnacle of being a man. Yeah, all the girls exactly and now I see tears coming at your face and I've been Dr. Nady that man don't cry. Guns don't cry. Soldiers don't cry. You've been teased a ton exactly for cry And I see you crying and so Kudas warned me that if I keep thinking the one thinking and acting the way I'm acting I'm gonna get locked up and so that first arrest sitting in the back of that bus and they take us to a whole another town That's about an hour and a half away from Clarksville to the juvenile facility and so it's a long drive for somebody that just got arrested Like god damn I just got caught not only do I get caught what is gonna happen next really quick Did you have moments of dramatic shifts between feeling like a fully fledged adult and then all of a sudden going oh my god I'm a fucking kid like feeling like a kid. I would imagine like slinging dope getting paid You're feeling like a man going shopping that bus ride. You're like oh it wasn't the bus ride It was the ankle monitor. Thank when they finally let me go a month and a half later They wouldn't let me go unless I had somebody to live with another moment where Mickey comes in the picture and allows me to live with him and Living with Mickey Was being a child again and I couldn't be a child especially not to a man that I feel like you ain't Nothing anyway. You are something and I appreciate your attempts Because I haven't forgot the past attempts and I'm appreciating this attempt But I'm a man now and he ain't trying to hit in the court and trying to hit it You're so fucked up at this point, dude. I mean, you're just so fucked up You're trying to make sense of everything you're trying to be a man You're disappointed in him and you love him and you feel heartbroken that he didn't It's so turn out to be one of them to be but now he's here and so you're both appreciative and judgmental Yeah, it's a mess fast forward to 2010 You're 22. There's a sting operation and they arrest 30 people 36 to be exact and Three the charges got dropped because of the cooperation and then the other three was Charge but they agreed to cooperate too and they just got less charges than everybody but yes a lot of us You get arrested and Then you have Four years before your trial starts and say I know also. What did you have on you? Like what did you have on you? I had no drugs on me. You but no drug. No, I had a gun. I had a loaded nine millimeter ruger Oh, and I had $11,000 within my reach So technically I came with the money. There's no you know, I've been convicted I the passes the past so I brought the money and the guy was getting my drugs from he had the drugs Let me tell the story quickly. Yeah, he's the Target so they have been tapping his phones. They have been wanting him for years They've been knowing who he was. He actually had beat a federal case roughly a decade before this particular night Cases over with they like we got enough evidence we can arrest his ass But the phones are tapped and I call and they like we don't know who this is and it sounds like they're trying to do a drug deal Let's let them meet we think they're trying to do a drug deal They let us meet and wear the store a convenient store gas station and they jump out when they jump out I have the money, but I throw it under the car and I have my gun inside my car and inside his car He has roughly fifteen ounces. So yes, they charged me with attempted possession charged me with the conspiracy and then charged me with Drugs on a school zone because it was a little alternative school. It's not even a real school And it wasn't even in operation anymore. It still had a charter and the charter was for that address Like when we really gotten to trial and really dug through the weeds. I got four charges out of it Fellin would have found the Conspiracy attempted possession of the drugs and the drugs and the schools on the four years stint before your trial When do you discover the library at the county jail? So from the moment the handcuffs got put on me I knew that I was through I knew that I wanted change Because it had been too much pain. I'm like this has to stop like my life has been fucked up And I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what God got in store for me by this time I am in an existential crisis. I'm like this is crazy It's nowhere in the world. My life has been this messed up. I've had to live with no electricity You know running water no parents my cousin got murdered and I pull up to the crime scene Well, I didn't pull up. I wouldn't drive. I'm a child But and then my brother died by suicide and I have to find him I have to navigate not stepping in his brains, but also getting help. I am now getting arrested by the FBI in the DEA I'm saying these jackets that usually you only see on movies So I'm like what happened exactly. I'm like this is unreal like this can't be true Like how can one person's life be this crazy? Yeah, and I guess probably from the outside a lot of people might say Their knee-jerk reaction might be like well, of course. What did you think? It's kind of shocking how much you can ignore stuff until the rents do when that happens You can both be going like well, yeah, this makes sense, but also like oh, wow. We're here exactly Think about the amount of things you just said that weren't Choices at all like the parents you're born into the house you're born into the not having Electrical like these aren't decisions. You're a kid. You're just like being drug a long surviving It's so unfair and then once the cuffs got put on me I'm like, okay, let me figure something out And so I reverse engineered and I started with my mother's choices Then I went to my choices then I went to America's decisions which led me To having certain thoughts, but I'm still not getting the answers, but I got the questions really quick Was the question like how did this happen? Is this happening to everybody? If it's not happening to everybody Why is it happening to me? What system is in place that allowed this to happen to me and everyone else? That's a great way to paraphrase it, but I will admit like any other human being. I'm being so subjective I'm like nobody else's life is this hard not in America I'm knowing people go through other things in every part of the world of America every other country But at that time I'm being so subjective. I'm like, I ain't no way Ain't no way my life is this hard. What is going on? - Exactly, an explanation for that. - Thank you. I had all these questions. And walking into that county jail library, I'm going in there because we have to. They're searching us, even though we're incarcerated, even though we're locked up, you still are subjected to certain treatment that people wouldn't expect. They expect it because they hear stories and like, okay, this is inhumane, this is mistreatment, blah, blah, blah. But they wouldn't expect it like, really? Like, what do y'all think they got? Like, unless you bring it, how does it enter the facility? That is the ultimate reality. But I see on the board a Bible verse that has always resonated with me. And I happen to look up after reading a Bible verse, which was, "Faith the size of a must of sea can move a mountain into the sea." And you know, it's different variations of the Bible. So it might be a little bit different. But I'm thinking of that as I walk past it, it's on the chalkboard. So I'm thinking about, okay, church message has been in there because it's the same room, the same library as what it's technically is, it's also serving as church, mosque, temple, everything that is allowed in the jail is serving for that. So I'm like, okay, the last pastor wrote this. I sit down and at a nowhere, the same way that stack of books that you have right there is color coded all red. I happen to notice some red and I'm like, what is it? And it was a set of encyclopedias. And it embarked me on a trajectory that saved me. - Yeah. - Wow. - We've heard from numerous people that their first love was the encyclopedia. Like it's funny what a gateway that thing is. - It's true, I mean, it holds all the answers as you said. - Well, exactly. - I think it just like, if we could get metaphorical about it, is it that you had such a myopic view of the world and life. You were in such a specific thing. And to find out was it the vastness of the world and everything in it? Like what do you suppose was the romantic aspect to the encyclopedia that had you hooked? - I got two quotes to answer that. One is by Carl Sagan. He said books are like seeds, able to lay dormant but able to flower in the most unpromising soil. So then books that just been sitting are collecting dust. And I was that unpromising soil that now was for no water and nurture and cultivate something from those seeds. And then another quote is by me. I said memory gives humans the ability to store information and build upon that information. Imagination gives people the ability to envision what to do with that information and change and build. The former can keep you trapped with painful memories. The latter can keep you trapped fear and future possibilities. Them encyclopedias contain so much information, so much about the world that I wanted to know was curious to know and hadn't been exposed to. So yes, you're right. It was because so much was contained and then they had four sets. I only noticed the red ones initially because red is what it serves as. It's a stimulant. It catches your attention. And since when L.A. I got to give the name drop, the late great nipsy hustle was a crib through and through was unapologetic about it, but he made sure red was on his logo because he understood the power of the color. So the red encyclopedias caught my attention, but they had a set that was black and a set that was green. So say for instance, I'm curious about zoning and housing. I'm going to look up in the red encyclopedias, the black encyclopedias and the green encyclopedias, housing policies in L.A. or whatever I might be interested in and compare and contrast the three different encyclopedias. - Oh, 'cause they were different brands? - Exactly. So I definitely was yearning to be a part of a different group. Like right now, I am the iconoclast. I am the abnormal, the one that is normal. - The exact same. - Exactly. Yeah, yeah, because clearly I'm not white. Clearly I didn't come from the suburbs. Clearly I don't fit what I match in some ways. Most people, when they see me, I break all the stereotypes. When you think of street guy from the ghetto, a drug dealer, a gangster, gang banger, any of the certain images popping your head. - Yeah, every movie we've seen. - Exactly, yeah. And I don't fit that. I fit the suburban guy that has been around white people all his life, that has money. - That's assimilated white culture. Some people will say, "He talked white." No, everybody talks white, 'cause our language comes from England. - English, yeah. - You know, I let you speak in a different language that I don't realize, but that is the fantasies and the misconceptions that come with not fitting a certain paradigm, not fitting a certain model. Needless to say, you take a real fucking journey for those four years of education. And then there's this crazy life-defining moment you have, which is, you're now, it's four years later, you're gonna get sentenced. You walk into that courtroom knowing what you're up against, which is they have now added in that four years they've decided to kind of upgrade to a three strikes, which for people who don't know about mandatory sentencing, federal three strike law, if you've got two violent felonies or two preexisting drug felonies, third one, life, period, federal's no parole. Life means life or life means 20 years. Now, life means staying this little sail until you die. Until we pronounce you deceased, you will not lead a custody of the BOP. Okay, so you know without question, that's what you're about to hear on that day. - Yep. - And you have been advised not to speak by several people, but then the judge asks you, if you'd like to say anything, what is that speech? That speech is, can you imagine a child that has been dumped into a swamp? And he's been told to get out of this swamp. And then by the time he makes it to civilization and walks into a restaurant, he's muddy, he's dirty, he's stinking. And everybody in the restaurant looks at him as if he's done something wrong and reprimands him and say, get out of my restaurant. You can't come to her like that, we got to dress cold, you post a follow the strict dress code. And so I just want to everybody to see me as a human being. So not only did I speak about what I had endured, but I spoke about possibility. I told them, look at everything I have been doing since I got arrested. I've been studious with my time, taking copious notes, just voraciously reading, anything I can get my hands on, but not just consuming information, but actually critically thinking, actually letting myself ask another question on top of a question and letting the answer from that be something that adjusts my behavior. So I've been practicing cognitive behavioral therapy on my own in this inhumane environment. I've been in her in this tiny room with these other people that I don't know and having to deal with them in a nonsense, deal with the pain of my memories, and deal with what I know the future is gonna be and still believing that, hey, I can be something different and I'm going to be something different. And so I'm choosing to take in this information and let it adjust me and as it's adjusting me, give me a chance, give me the possibility to be back with humanity. See the humanity in me and give me a chance to be back in society. And I'm knowing that's not gonna happen right then and there, but I'm just hoping that when it's all said and done, the record would reflect that we are in a throwaway by assets, not liability. And all that four years of reading had you read Victor Frankl's book? Yes, sir. 'Cause the story's so parallel for people who don't know the Victor Frankl story, he was in a concentration camp and he said, it occurred to him at some point that they can own your body, they can take away all your autonomy of your body, but they can't have your mind. Exactly. And you get to have some control over how you process and deal with even the worst scenario. And therein lies your remaining freedom. Exactly. I love the existentialist. I loved Victor Frankl for one what he actually went through and the measurement of man is one of my top reads. And he basically was like, you know, for the person that knows the why he would figure out the how. Some kind of way, you know what I'm saying? You know you want to survive? You would figure it out. No matter if you're being starved, beat, or whatever, but I also love James Allen, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, and even though they were racists, High Dagger and Hegel. I'm gonna shout out High Dagger and Hegel and Ken. I gotta also acknowledge they believe a person like me didn't have the capacity to think in a way I think. So yeah, I had figured out that it's power within choice. And I understood that the way I think affects the way I choose. So by that time, I realized all the powers within you. You can choose and how you think affects how you choose. And so all the powers within you, no matter what, these outside circumstances are, you know, that's external. Pay attention to the internal, you know, know that's self. And you will be able to succeed. You will be able to excel. I had my mind made up that with every choice was going to reflect a different person. And not only a different person, but somebody that was worthy of being a part of society. Yeah. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. So this speech is so moving that the federal judge, Kevin Sharp, who had been appointed by Clint and I think Obama, Obama, not immediately, but he's already not loving mandatory sentencing. He's very moved by you. He does not like having to dole out that sentence. And ultimately, this event, along with I'm sure other weight on his conscious, gets him to step down from a lifetime appointment federal judge and become an advocate against mandatory sentencing. What other things start happening that paved the way for your release? Let me put it in context. A lot of people don't realize this man had to get appointed by a president, like you said, you pointed out, Obama appointed him. And not only that, you have to get confirmed by Congress. So he jumped through a lot of hoops and hurdles to even get this job. And he's like, you know what, I can't live with myself. And they can keep that job for forever until they die or retire. So I just wanted to make sure I point that out because I will always forever love Kevin H. Sharp. That was a very courageous and brave act of him and I will forever admire and reverend him and love him. And integrity to do something like that, because like you have security. You know this paycheck is called, you know, the ultimate security blanket. Exactly. Exactly. And prestige and the sense of dignity that comes from identity. He was one in people that's like, you know, the value of me is not tied up in that identity of being a judge. The dignity is tied up in me knowing that I have the power to choose and with my choice, I'm going to choose to resign and speak out against what's going on. So not only did that lead to the freedom, but the media, it's a very powerful tool. One of the journalists sent the article of Judge Sharp resigning and speaking about him wanting to get me released to attorney in Dallas, Texas named Brittany K. Barnett. Brittany was a corporate attorney that was working on billion dollar deals by day and at night working pro bono for free to help people that was incarcerated for drug charges. And then, on the weekends, she was taking kids to go visit their mothers in prison. What's wrong with her? Exactly. Give us some stinks. She's just doing so much of what you're saying. Exactly. I swear, hard to trust that person. And that's exactly how I said, I was in disbelief when I heard him resigning and I thought like you said, I was like, what is he benefit? Well, I was like, I've never seen nobody do this. I've never seen nobody say I'm going to care about the parents. There's addicted to drugs or selling drugs and the child that's affected by their incarceration. While working my nine of five. So Brittany blew me away meeting her. Monica, they're engaged. No! Monica loves that kid. You don't want me to kill you. Wow. I love how you whisper into the mic. You've gotten too good at your job. It should come out later, but I can tell it's getting really land with her in that moment. You just heard what Angel she is. I think this is a time for me to plug. You can read her book, A Knock It Midnight, where she speaks on all together, she's free 77 of us. They had life sentences for drugs, nonviolent offenses and federal prison for drugs. How soon do you guys start falling in love? Don't fucking lie. Tell us the truth. Immediately. Oh, I fell in love as soon as I heard about it. Yeah. This is a beautiful attorney who cares about me. I'm like, what can you say? I had never met somebody so kind, and I just, I come from a neighborhood where everybody's trying to get over on the next person, so I had been spending my whole life looking for unconditional love. Didn't know I had it with Big Mama. Didn't know I had it with different people that was loving in the way that they knew how to love. Give her brother. You know, my brother? Exactly. So, but at the time of meeting Brittany, I'm just blown away and I'm smitten immediately, but she was very professional. Yeah. But you got a good smile. I'll wear a woman. Oh, thank you. You can only see that smile so many times. Thank you, Dad. It's funny, though, because everybody think I got veneers and I don't. Oh, these are my natural teeth, don't. The only tooth that's faking my mouth is this front one. I broke it when I was 10. And I was so embarrassed for the next three years that I wouldn't even talk without covering my mouth. I wouldn't laugh without covering my mouth. Mickey found out and he took me to the dentist and got my tooth fixed. Yeah. But by this time, I'm intoxicated with the streets. So I'm also selling drugs and so then I got some gold teeth, but they was the pullouts. But back then, the pullouts wouldn't go to the mall and spend 50 dollars. They was a hundred and fifty or two. Yeah. But I said that because he complimented my smile so thank you. Yeah. And everybody think I got veneers, but literally only one tooth on my mouth is faking. In the midst of all this, you're getting media attention and you have a lawyer now. You have Kevin working on your behalf in some way. The fight for freedom has begun. You have one particular moment where you had to put in a clemency request and you really thought this was going to be the one, yeah? Yeah. I was laying there asleep and the unit manager came and said, young and immediately my mind kicked in. I'm like, this is it. This is it. I'm going to get it. Someone has started the clemency initiative and that has to date release the most people through executive presidential clemency ever. He actually at the time have released more people through clemency than every president combined. Wow. And so I'm like, okay, I'm finna get it, I'm finna get it. Just sharp speaking about me, other articles are speaking about me. I'm like, I ain't no way he ain't heard about me. And then once the unit manager told me, he got denied and everything came crashing down and I would say I have enough common sense and enough empathy to say, Obama's not reading nothing himself. He has so many people, everything has to go through before it touches him. I was probably denied ten people before he read or heard anything. And so I never look at it and took it personally because I understand the chain of command. But it's uniquely heartbreaking when you let hope enter the scene. Like hope is this wonderful power and it's also so dangerous. It is intoxicating and I think it's a drug that we all should be taking. So former federal reserve chairman, Arthur Burns said hope is the greatest factor of the economy. If people don't believe it or get better, they will never get up and try. So I was getting up every single day and trying, despite having two life sentences, I was never going to lose it. I give people the analogy. They'd be like, you had to believe that she was going to die and I'm like, no, they were like, okay, well, if you didn't think she was going to die, you at least thought she was going to do 30 years. I was like, no, just the way you wake up and you go to the bathroom and pee, when you're walking across that floor, that floor can collapse. If you live in a house or you live in an apartment, that floor is not directly on the ground. It can collapse. It's on the ground, it can fall through, but you don't think that you have faith and you believe that this floor is going to carry me to the restroom so I can pee. And that's how it was. I woke up every day and I'm like, I'm going to make decisions that's going to carry me to my release date. Whenever that may come, and so you write that hope that came in and that hope can also let you down, but I was never going to stop having hope. So then COVID happens. Do you think you're already experiencing a terrible situation, but then obviously no solitary confinement starts entering the equation? To make the equation look worse than what it is, let me really put it in context for you. By this time, Brittany has introduced me to Kim Kardashian. So now only do I have the most famous woman in the world speaking out on my behalf, Brittany had already been to the White House once with another advocate of mine, Doug Deason. But then also a second time with another advocate of mine, Mark Holden, who used to be General Counsel for the Koch Industries, and then Kim enters the picture. Koch brothers are Coca-Cola. Koch brothers. Everything's all complicated and I know what you're thinking, and I'm definitely thinking too. Yeah. Mark's a great man. Well, there's this incredible attorney he has since passed, but this attorney, I got to have dinner with him one time, fascinating dude, a right-wing guy. He tried the case in federal court to get citizens United pass, which is a terrible bit of legislation. He also was the lawyer that got Doma overturned and allowed gay marriages. You're like, "Oh, wow, man." People are complicated. I was just like, "Humans are complicated." You can't write people off because you don't know. Exactly. You're going to miss the good side. Exactly. Exactly. Opportunities come. What you say since we're on the topic, that's why the whole, I don't like you because you're a Democrat. I don't like you because you're a Republican and I don't like you because you're gay. I don't like that sounds crazy as hell to me, but to each his own. Well, that's a luxury of people who don't have anything real on their plate, if I can be honest with you. If you're trying to get out of a place, Brene Brown said, "This is like during the Katrina floods, when people were in a boat and they were holding their hand out to pull someone in the boat." No one said, "Oh, hold on. Aren't you a liberal or a conservative?" Exactly. Because something real was happening. Thank you. Yeah. And so you were dealing with something real. You're right. And to be so spun out about this other shit is a total luxury and almost says you got really no problems going on. I'm going to ignore the humanity and you because you believe in because you grew up in the town, you grew up in dude. I can look at the zip code you were born in. I can tell 85% accuracy what you think until yeah, we all think we've come to this independently went through lots of scrutiny. But back to the story. I'm being not only shipped to a new maximum security prison whose nickname is bloody Beaumont. Doesn't sound very promising. I've just had my new attorney have three different meetings at the White House about me. The most famous woman in the world tweeting and posting about me a judge who sentenced me speaking out about me and then other advocates that are very prominent influential. So I'm thinking release is on the horizon, but it wasn't. I had to go to bloody Beaumont and not only was Beaumont what his name is, it was very violent, but Brittany won a very rare post-conviction motion. A 2255, which is a habeas corpus petition and she won it. She basically demonstrated your counsels in sufficient, right? Is that what it was? Exactly, exactly. The lawyer who represented me a trial had admitted she didn't listen to all the wiretaps and it had she listened to all the wiretaps. She would've known the weight of the evidence against me and she was willing to admit this and we really appreciate her for doing this. I love how few resentment you carry or hearing carried. Yeah, I appreciate her for that. Her admitted this, it was a part of Brittany's motion and less than 5% of these have ever been granted in American history. And so Brittany got my sentence reduced from life to 14 years. But I still had another year and a half and like he said, COVID has hit. So not only is it COVID, I've been at a violent prison that's been locked down because of violence, but then now we're locked down because of a rare contagious pandemic that's going on on top of that. Okay, Chris, you don't have life no more. You're not maximum security no more. You're actually camp status. But we're not going to send you to a camp even though it's right across the parking lot. COVID is going on. We're just going to throw you in the hole. So they put me in the hole and the hole is why we call it that. It is literally the jail inside the prison and it is very torturous. You can't see outside, there's no windows or nothing. You can't have commissary. And unfortunately for me, because I was technically a different security level, I couldn't have a cell. And they put me in the only single man cell to head and it was flooded. And so literally it's like three inches of water in this cell. - Fuck that. - Exactly. But dedication to termination and discipline had got me where I was at. So I refused to give up my strict regimen and routine, which was waking up, I'm going to defecate, clean myself up, work out. I thought, work out, clean myself up and then read. And so I'm doing pushups in this flooded cell. - Oh my God. - Not knowing I'm getting myself sick. I'm figuring I'm going to get sick but I can't stop my routine because it's how I get through the days. - You articulate, it is psychologically dangerous to be isolated like that. You've been in some journeys in your head. I'm sure that I can't really relate to. - Yeah, that's actually why I loved Hamlet so much when I finally read it. When I finally read Hamlet, I happened to be in the hole a different time for a different scenario. And that to be or not to be, I bounced it around for what it could mean or not mean so many different ways and so many different times for so many different days while I was going through that extent of being in the hole. I really think he was questioning am I a man or am I a coward? Am I a killer or am I not a killer? Should I be a killer? Should I kill myself or should I kill my uncle? The question can be perceived in so many different angles in different ways. - Oh man. - And you decide to start writing this memoir in there, yeah? - Yes, I was in the hole. And just like speaking at my sentence of speech, I wanted the record to reflect my humanity. And so no record can reflect it better than my own words. - Yeah. - So then lo and behold kind of shockingly, despite thinking you have probably far more years 'cause your sentence has been reduced to 14 years. At 10 years in, how do we get to Trump? How does that final push happen? - Through the people closest to him, Miss Alice Marie Johnson, who Kim had advocated for before me, Ivanka, Jared. So despite that family and what anybody might think of them, it was some people apart of their family that really spoke up in my favor. And I really appreciate them. Look at Miss Alice now. Miss Alice now is the first part of the czar in American history despite serving 22 years herself and then getting released. And so yes, that last push effort was by the people closest to him. They was like, you know, you've been told about this case. We know about this case and your final leave. And why not use the power that only the president has. Literally only the president of the United States of America could put that pen to that paper and say, okay, this is completely forgiven, let them go. - Yeah. - Where's the exact moment I'm sure it's at your mind where you hear the news? - I can tell you, play by play. I'm in a better sale. I just got done doing my workout. Just took my shower and I'm hungry. I am landing the bed cold and hungry and waiting on the track because there's no commentary in the whole but we know what time of day they feed and I am waiting on lunch. I need to stay occupied to keep from thinking about how hungry I am. So I pick up the most recent printouts that Brittany has sent me 'cause I had asked her for specifically something I wanted to read about and she sent it to me. It was about gene editing to be exact. So I'm reading about the gene editing the latest progress with CRISPR and other technologies. - Which by the way, that's the solution for sickle cells. - It is and it isn't. Because I have the SC version if you remember at the beginning of the conversation right now because they're only in the trial stages and it's so expensive. It's two to three million dollars per treatment. They are only doing trial phases with the SS version and not the SC version. - Roger. - Despite my bones deteriorating, me having artificial hips, needing artificial shoulders and my tailbone deteriorating too, I don't have that particular version. So I don't meet the criteria today. - But yeah, maybe one day. - But there was no technology that was even going to spell in a sickle cell until that. - And to fully put in the context, it's excruciatingly painful and for decades, people have stereotype and judge, people with sickle cell and email believing they're just trying to get high. They just want pain medicine. They're drug seekers, and some doctors have actually phrased it. And that is not the case. They're dealing with a level of pain that most people couldn't file them. Couldn't even begin to believe if you've ever been shot or felt a tattoo or been hit by a car like multiply that. It might sound outrageous, but multiply that pain and that is a sickle cell crisis. - And over your whole body. - Thank you, exactly, exactly. - Yeah, not acute to anyone's place. You could attempt to ignore or distract from. - So I'm sitting here reading about this. And as you can only imagine, wondering one day, will I get it? Will I be able to get my sickle cell eliminated? - And I'm letting Nareen and Lieutenant Franks. If you're listening to this, he's gonna laugh and say I remember it like it was yesterday, but Lieutenant Franks is a Lieutenant at USP Beaumont and he's a prankster or jokester for lack of a better word. He's a hard ass. He's one of them ones that's quick to lock you up, but he's also one of the ones that wants to crack jokes. If you can only imagine a person like that. So he came to my door and immediately, I can tell he's in a jovial mood. And he's like a young, you wanna go home? I'm like, what's up, Franks, man? Don't play with me. I don't play with you. You know what I'm saying? I show you respect. - Take your jokes off. - Exactly. Take your jokes off. - Yeah, exactly. I'm hungry. What a treasure. I'm like, what a treasure. So he laughing. He's like, no, I'm serious. You wanna go home? I'm like, Franks, who don't wanna go home? Every person in his prison wants to go home, including y'all that's getting ready to go home with your shift in. You wanna go home right now too. And he is like, well, come on. I'm like, gone, Franks. And he laughed again and he stuck the key in the door. So when he stuck the key in the door, I'm like, this something that can get him fired. He didn't play that hard, you know what I'm saying? And he turned it. I said, oh, shit. I jumped up out the bed and so I go to the door. He said, you know, you gotta cuff up. I said, you serious? So I'm serious, man, you trying to go home. - What? - Man, I heard him turn around. I couldn't believe it. I get to shaking a little bit. So I gone cuff up, but I still don't know what's going on. And then when they take me in the office and they say, you gotta sign this. And when I look down to paper, I see that presidential seal is gold shining on the paper. And then I see that D and that T. I mean, I was ecstatic. I was elated. I'm like, I thought this was over with you know what I'm saying? They didn't let me go. Brittany had went to the United States White House three times in the year 2018. And I know for a fact, my name was brought up all three times. Not to mention Kim bringing up my name. Not to mention Joe Shaw bringing up my name and all the other advocates. Here it is January 20th, 2021. And I'm looking down at a paper that is telling me to release me immediately. And I was like, man, nervous system on Max. - Oh, shit. Yeah. - That's feeling a pure entire life, maybe. - I will admit, I've never felt a high like that. And I've only tried a few drugs, but you know, no exocetie, no marijuana, no rimmy martin could make me feel how I felt at that moment. And when I truly walked out the doors, like when I really felt that fresh air on my face and really saw Brittany standing in that parking lot, to be fair, I'm feeling nothing, but happiness at this moment. But Brittany helped me put everything into the equation as we're driving. She was telling me process it all the way. And I'm like, what you mean? Like I'm smiling, I'm happy. I feel good. Like, but that's the thing, like, it's a range of emotions and don't run from them, embrace them all. And she said, "Do you want hear some music?" She know how much I love music. And I said, "Yeah." And she told the driver to cut on a song. She knew I had always said I wanted to hear when I give her a least. And it was Lil Busy's true soldier. And the whole song is rapping about people in prison. It made last all crying. And I'm not talking about just a few tears down my face, I'm talking about that. Gasping for Earth. Snack coming out, she know. Yes, it's a nervous system letting down. It's 20 years. Yes. Later. Oh, my God. And it wasn't just a cry for me. It was a cry for Big Mama. She had died while I was locked up. It was a cry for Mickey. He had died while I was locked up. It was a cry for my granddaughter. It was a cry for a few homeboys that got murdered while I was locked up. And it was a cry for the people I had to leave behind. It was so many people I had just spun this decade with that I love and reverend. Look at like friends and family now. And they still have life sentences, 35 years, 40 years. And I'm like, "Damn, I wish I could take y'all with me." Yeah. I wrestled because I'm like, it's people that's incarcerated that didn't do nothing. But have people lie on them, whether it be the police officer or witness, and I did sell dope. No, if anybody's about that, I tried to sell as much cracking cocaine as I could get sold. And I know that's destructive. And I accepted that I was causing harm. But I'm also getting show empathy, sympathy, compassion. So I had to wrestle a little bit because that dynamic of, I did do something, but I didn't do nothing worthy of killing me. Like literally I have a deaf sentence. Like I am supposed to stay in this cage until I'm pronounced deceased. That is crazy. That's crazy. So that's what helped me get over it too, because I'm like, I didn't do nothing worthy of dying. Brian Stevenson said every person is worth more than the worst thing they've ever done. Or something like that might be butchering his quote. But I know people that have murdered people indeed last time. And I gave someone something they wanted. True enough that substance was destructive. But you know, we didn't lock John Pemberton up. And you know, he put cocaine and Coca-Cola for decades. And you know, Albert Neiman, he was the first to isolate it. This is a plant that has been existing on earth for a long time. I didn't create cocaine, and I ain't bringing no cocaine to this country. I was blessed to get that level of empathy, sympathy, and compassion shown to me. So you pretty immediately enroll at Southern Methodist? How soon before you enroll there? I didn't enroll there until 2023. I started at Dallas Community College because I'm a non-traditional student. So basically, I'm above the age, and then I became a transfer student once SMU accepted me. So I was at Dallas Community College. I got enough credits word technically I can transfer, but I got to get accepted. And so when SMU milled that acceptance letter, it was exciting. And that was 2023. I think of you getting out of there is very similar also to returning from Vietnam, where it's like the arousal setting in there. The spidey senses, the amount of attention you got to be paying to everything going on. Did you feel a sense of like after the elation pass and now you're in school, did you wrestle with boredom at all? Like you were feeling dead in the lack of stakes? So you know boredom is a state of mind. I know you know that. And so I never let myself embrace that. The stimuli is different though. I agree with you on that. And so it was definitely times where I'm in school and I'm like I hate standardized education. And there's no disrespect to anybody that plays a part of that system that is just me knowing that like right now I'm reading Jacques Lakin and everything he propagated about his belief of the bohrer me and not and how the consciousness is the real, the imaginary and symbolic. And all of that comes together to make us who we are. But within that, as I'm reading it, it's going to mention somebody else he learned from or it's going to mention something that's stimulating him or made him think of some, I'm going to stop and go look at that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the bread crumbs when you're here. Exactly. And the standardized education doesn't want you to do that. Yeah, right. It wants you to memorize what we just told you to memorize and choose the correct answer on this test. It was plenty of times where I was annoyed and it was hard, but I really meant walking across that stage this year in May 16, 2026. But beyond walking across the stage, the love and support SMU showed me. Like SMU really once they found out about my story, they were proud to have you. Yes. They showed me that. And I appreciate that. Yeah, that's beautiful. That's amazing. But what's your major in economics and public policy? There are two things that affect me the most, being poor and the system set up that everybody needs to operate by. And if you don't operate by, you will pay the consequences. Yeah. I forgot one part that was my favorite when he gets out of prison. Kevin Sharp is there. Yeah. And you guys have this beautiful hug. You haven't seen each other since the courtroom. Yeah, yeah. I hadn't seen Joe Sharp since he had to tell me I'm going to do it. A life sentence in prison. Next time you see him, he's hugging you. Not only hugging me, but crying, this man is serious. Like he really was moved by speaking to me, by interacting with me, and he really wanted me free. And he showed me that. And I really appreciate that. You know the big headline of your life, which I hope you feel, is like, you're so worthy of love. You're so easy to love. A lot of people love you and want to love you. It's funny. You say that because Brittany had an event the night of my graduation, and that is what I spoke about. I had spoken about speaking on freedom. And how I believe freedom is the ability to cognitively process and imagine, despite any circumstance, to be able to have this level of cognition and still see something different. Despite what's around you, but I got on stage and I spoke about unconditional love because I didn't realize it in fully process it, but I had been yearning for it, had been in search of it, had made terrible decisions, hoping I was finna get it reciprocated to me, and finally got it shown to me when I wasn't even searching for it. Yeah. How beautiful. Oh my God. So inspiring. And like, there's just so many people still in there. And I hope Congress and I hope President Trump and I hope anybody that has the power specifically that person and that group realizes that these are human beings acknowledged their humanity. This system is not rehabilitative. That system is punitive. Yes. I know. I just want to punish somebody and harm somebody. You're a cruel. I don't care what you say. That's cruel. It is. But if you want to help somebody, acknowledge the power you have and help them. And that system can be completely some different. We have other countries doing it totally different. And we have the technology where we can do it different. I mean, just on Prima Facial, there's no way we can have two million human beings sitting in cement boxes and think, yeah, we figured this out. We're nailing this. There's no fucking way, dude, you're talking about nearly 1% of the populations in prison is fucking bonkers. And you look at the rest of the world and there's no one's close to that. Exactly. And that's because it's a business. Yeah. Business/controlling undesirable, socioeconomic people. Going to it, Dex. Let's put the white trash in there. Let's put the black folks in there. Let's put everyone that we'd rather not deal with or see or have to, yeah. Chris, you're awesome, dude. I'm really glad I got to meet you on this trip on Planet Earth. You're so exceptional. The book is called "The wound is where the light enters." It'll be August 4th. It's a beautiful read. I hope everyone reads the book, "The light meeting you. Good luck with everything." Thank you. I appreciate you. Oh, we should say if you need some consulting, coherence consulting is the company you own, yeah? Thank you. What do you consult on? Technically, I want to speak on everything with critical infrastructure. It's not just an industry. It is the whole operating system that the civilization is running on. So it has spanned everything from civil engineering to cyber security. Wonderful. Chris, be well. This is great. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Is it our care expert? Buddy makes mistakes all the time. That God, my heart goes here. He's got a little half of the facts. I have an update. Oh, wonderful. So remember the episode where it was a fact check where I talked about being in Venice and going into a store and feeling like the lady was rude to me. Yeah. And we had a little post story debate about whether or not you want people to have that power review. Or that was my take. Yeah. Right. I had a debate on the fact check and then it came up again on actually today's episode that came out. Mark Bracket's episode. Oh, uh-huh. That's when we talk about it publicly. Oh, uh-huh. And I edited that episode in the morning and that afternoon on it and I went to Venice. Uh-huh. So it's a weird sim. Yeah. We're in Venice, we're having fun, walking, eating, and then we brought you out there again for people who don't live here. That's like a commitment to go to Venice. It is. That's your entire day. It is. It is. We decided to have a West Side day. Uh-huh. You have to like, you know, make the declaration. You didn't have a facial appointment or anything like that. Just let's go have a West Side day. We're going to have a West Side day. One of my favorite restaurants. It's called the tasting kitchen. Uh-huh. Okay. It. Have a Kenny. Uh-huh. Have a Kenny. It. Close. It's been closed for years. And it just reopened. Ding, ding, ding. Okay, it just reopened which was so exciting yeah, it notoriously had my favorite cocktail in the entire city called a blue Monday originally it doesn't have it anyway that's okay but anyway so we made a reservation at the tasting kitchen and we just popped around it was very fun but we walked by that store okay and I thought let's go in so we went in the same lady same lady yes okay I had a lovely experience and she helped me try I let her help me try on because you weren't she didn't want you to grab on yourself for the right yes and so this time I just asked her I said do you have anything yeah in this size and you know and then she look I do think her personality is specific uh-huh yeah but we became great friends uh-huh and I understood her more uh-huh uh-huh and I left and I was healed did you see yeah this woman just has a very specific way of doing everything it wasn't personal like she's trapped in her own yeah yes kind I mean I I would say she's um not a gentle type yeah yeah right and it's just her personality uh-huh and so she wasn't looking down on me right she just was you weren't getting with the system yeah but you know I do have a weird I do have a weird thing that goes on in those situations where I do think I feel like okay I got to like show that I belong like I got a buy stuff I you know I think I do get in a weird zone where it's like or start talking to them about fashion and let them know like I'm I am hip to everything yeah yeah kind or yeah but more I think I hate to say this but this is the truth I actually think it's more about the spending like you're not wasting your time on me right and so I did buy a lot um and I mean great products great products uh but well you can afford to have shitty bedside manner if your products are phenomenal like if you got so so merch you better put on all the smiles and frills yeah I guess that's true I prefer you can have you can be like a prick um restaurant tour in New York so you can only do that if you got soup that's incredible the soup Nazi there's a signpost reference classic yeah yeah I just you can be both you know yeah yeah yeah I'm healed to close the loop on that oh great that's a good update so that was good that was good and it was very sim because I had just listened to it yeah that is the ding ding ding as the synoramidums reopening I saw I could not I don't know if that means the whole arc lights back online did you yeah because you said that buys me more time it buys me more you said something like that buys me like I could retire and live in LA if our flight was still functioning because so exciting oh there's nothing I enjoyed more that place I would walk in I just immediately like oh this is a monument to cinema yeah everything's run perfectly the popcorn's delicious the fucking the seating they start the movie on time we went to the movies a few times in Nashville in what America's accustomed to it's it's 30 minutes I told you this I told you I've been going to the movies I've been timing it in 30 minutes it's insane yeah we were going for opening day of Odyssey yeah me too and of course you want to get there and we had friends in town and they really wanted to see the movie and we were a lot like I can get out of the house and it's driving me berserk I'm like we're gonna fucking miss the beginning of the Odyssey oh no we're 15 minutes late and we were 15 minutes early exactly I know like fuck man we should leave the house when the movie starts I start planning now with that 30 minute window even today just was sending me some movie options we might see a movie this weekend and he was like starts at 12.45 so 1.15 like we now know right that's not the case at the Vista true that's true the Vista or like I was three or our client yeah so that's very exciting for the city oh I just pray that the whole Shabang is back online yeah okay but real quick so in keeping with my healing mm-hmm okay I did have another a little separate I healed one and then created a new wound yeah a new wound also opened not in that moment but I was in New York and I was with my friend I have to be I'm gonna be careful about this is I don't want to get anyone like fired yeah yeah um but I was with a friend we are at okay how do you roll this out we're at a big store okay sure and it's a store that has stalls you'd like you know changing stalls no no sorry like like a Lou Avay stall and a mean there's little sections of the department store that have different brands correct I was kind of trying to not say department yeah but it was already I already knew and I'm a simpleton yeah so there's a bag there's a bag out in the world it's a Chanel bag and it is new to the season and it's gorgeous it's a must have for it's beautiful I've actually never seen it I've only seen it in pictures but my friend I'll shout out Maddie she has seen this bag in person her friend has it and she is like it's stunning and it's this big bag and I was like okay and so when we go I was like let's just see let's see if we can see it if they have it yeah so we go to the Chanel stall and I met with a person there and he said can I help you and I said yeah um do you guys have the Chanel like to and and he was like what what we don't have any to there are no totes yeah he hated that we don't have any totes you have a picture and I was like um yeah I and I was like looking for it and I was like is it in in Maddie he's like it's the one with the flap hmm and he was like oh that was a key word yeah he was like oh the flap bag hmm that's what we're calling it yeah he's like the large extra large flap bag and I was like yes um that and he said no we don't it sold out it sold out completely can't get it anywhere can't get it anywhere in the city I was like oh that's a bummer and he goes oh this person goes if we had it would you buy it mm-hmm and I said maybe yeah and he was like oh god whatever it's a yeah and yeah and he was like oh well yeah I just I don't know people are coming in a lot of people are asking about it like 11 people asked about it yesterday I'm just like it's an $11,000 back so I'm just like wondering uh-huh and I said it's 11 I thought it was more than that uh-huh which I didn't yeah um and he was like yeah and he was up to take a moment that's that's significant it's a $11,000 back trust me I know like it's crazy um but anyway he said he and yeah and he was like yeah there I think there's gonna be more in fall and I was like okay great we leave and I okay so I'm doing a thing right mm-hmm where I was like we walk out of the store in Maddie not brown by the way um honky um I just want to say it was today but she is also very fashionable great job and she looked at me and she goes oh my god that person needs to be fired immediately and I was so I was like okay yeah I didn't really know and she was like that was crazy and she like really had a very strong reaction and on my behalf it was me who was being asked you know and so also real quick is she in New Yorker yes okay that's relevant she's a New Yorker and she also works in fat like she's nose fashion you can't like go into a luxury you can't go into Chanel and and go for the crisis exactly we're act exactly and so she said she was like it's just so crazy like you can't know anything about how much a person has these days by like looking at them and yeah she was and I very offended she was taken aback and taken aback and that I felt protected by that and I also felt like yeah a little vindicated and also like yeah I'm like bending over backwards to to not be offended and it is offensive but mainly it wasn't that it was offensive to me it's that that is bad behavior like you you should not ever ask someone, would you buy it? - Yeah, so he's in the wrong role. - He's in the wrong role. - Yeah, yeah, he would do great at a more mid-level store. - But yeah, but you still should never ask that. That's like a weird thing to ask. - I agree, you can't be a Ferrari dealership salesman and go like, you're gonna pay 350 for this car. Like, duh, that's what you're saying. - And also if someone comes in to look at a Ferrari. - But we could excuse someone who is like from modest background, who newly is in this job, who's truly wowed by the seemingly the amount of people that can spend $11,000 on back like, we can't. - It's fine to be wowed, I'm not. - He's got the job for him, but as a human, we can't say that. - Yeah, 'cause yeah, you can't go into a Ferrari dealership and the person asked to see a Ferrari and you're like, what? - Yeah. - You would spend that much money on a car. - Yeah, but why do you think I'm here? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Anyway, even if it's, look, I also understand, it might be very annoying. People might be coming in all the time to see it. - There's a lot of lucky lose, right? - And then they're lucky lose and maybe it's annoying 'cause you gotta go in the back and you gotta get it. But guess what? - That's the job. - Correct. - Sure. It might be compounded by being in a department store. Because if you're solely in a Chanel store. - Yeah. - The, the, the bar you have to cross to be there, it's like, you parked, you went to that store. You meant to go there. You're at a department store to get some Ralph Lauren. - Mm-hmm. - And you're like, oh, I see Chanel. Fuck, I wonder if I've got one of those bags. There's probably more lucky lose in a department store than in the Rick and Morta stand alone. - I'm sure. So it's probably a lot of tire kickers, but you're right, that's part of the job. - It's part of the job. - And you don't know. And then Maddie made a good point. She was like, if they did have a, like you couldn't buy it from him. You're not, you can't give him commission for that. - Right. - It's like, that's really true. - You'd have to say, oh, when are they back? In a great, in what days do you work? - Yeah, I'm gonna say, I need to, I'm gonna ask somebody else to help me. - Yeah. - So, any who, so that was an interesting counter. - These luxury stores are a minefield. - They are. - Okay, now I have a dangerous thing that occurred to me while I was listening to the store. - Yeah, I wanna hear. - So, again, it's just very, very bizarre for a 38 year old to be able to be in that job. - Uh-huh. I mean, okay. - It is. If I put on a graph for you at American's make at what age? - Of course. - Yeah, it's really, really, it's an anomaly. - But, okay. I would say for anyone to walk into that store at any age is rare. - Sure, but if, of the total number of millionaires in America, a very, very, very small percentage of them are below 40. The vast majority are above 40 'cause it takes a lifetime to accrue that. - Sure, sure. It's just our industry so different. - Of course, I understand how it happens, but what I'm saying is, if you acknowledge that you're gonna be an anomaly period, that's just the reality of the situation. You're an anomaly. - Yeah, yes. - And so in the face of this anomaly, if I was a salesperson, I would start thinking of like, well, how does this person have this much money at this age? I would be very interested in what they did for a living. - Sure. - And if I didn't ask them what they did for a living. - Yeah. - My reigning theories, if I didn't recognize them from TV, would be they're either a trust fund person. You might end there. You know, I might go like, oh, they have, this person's rich from their family. Here's my provocative, dangerous question. - Okay. - What's preferable to you? - Uh-huh. - The salesperson who doesn't think you have the money to be there. - Uh-huh. - Or the salesperson who thinks she must have been a Saudi. She must have been a Saudi. - She's levity is royal. - Well, now I'm going to Saudi. 'Cause you're not white, you live in LA, and a lot of Saudis live here. Let's just say they went like, oh, yeah, she's like, she's a Saudi. - Uh-huh. - Is that preferable to you than she has no money, she hasn't belonged here? - Yes. - It is, okay. Yeah, I was just curious. - Yeah. Because. - I don't know why they crossed my mind. - Maybe they thought I was a Bollywood actor. - Oh, yeah, that could have been there. That might have come across the theories. - Listen. - But that you would be delighted. Like that would have, I know that. But if you're just like, you're oil money. - Oh. - Saudi does that, does that? - Okay, this is interesting because I don't care what they. - Attribute your financial. - Because I know the truth, which is that it's not family money. - Yeah, yeah. - It's earned. And of course, I am grateful and I prefer having earned the money than having received the money passed out. - Yeah, it's hard to have a lot of pride in receiving. - Exactly, exactly. - I have a ton of pride in that. - Sure. - But I don't really care what they know or don't know about it. - I do, right? So it crosses my mind when I'm at a very nice hotel. - Oh. - And I've seen other people. And the other people at the hotel's, I go, you don't look like me. They're not covered in tattoos. They're not wearing shorts and converse. You know, they're not, they don't look like 12 year olds with money, which is what I look like. - Yep. - And so I of course wonder what they think. - Yeah. - You know? - Oh yeah, yeah, I go, oh, I look out of place, clearly. - This is exactly what Maddie was saying. She was like, you can't look at anyone anymore and know anything about their finances. She's like, look at all the tech bros. If you saw them walking on the mall, you'd have no idea. - No, it's my favorite part of LA. When you're in line at Gelsons, and there's four guys in front, if you all four look homeless, and one of them is created a TV show and has 400 million dollars. - Exactly. - And I think that's hilarious. And I think it's very democratizing about LA. - It is. - Like in Michigan, there's so many indicators that you display, and then people treat people differently. And if you're on the polo colored shirt and you have a golf bag, and I hate that personally. So I prefer here, which is like, they kind of got to treat everyone at Gelsons the same, because who fucking knows if that guy created TV show or that guy's living on the streets, we don't know. There's nothing visually that we can't replace that on. So when I'm in the situation and I assume some of my fellow guests are wondering why this guy is at the hotel, it would be my great preference that they think I earned it. - Right. - And not that I was a trust fund kid. - Huh. - Who's been to like seven treatment centers and shit. - Because, well, I mean, let's not rule it out. That's because you have a chip on your shoulder about money. - Well, big time. I would prefer, like you were saying, I don't, I would prefer to not be the recipient of generational wealth. I have a lot more pride in the fact that. - But I mean, you have a real. - So I prefer that the people think that I made it because I have more pride in that. - Yeah, I think so. You have a chip on your shoulder about money, and I have a chip on my shoulder about-- - Being lower class. - I was about to say class. - The lower status, yeah, it is actually class. It's like kind of class, it's like you're brown and you're not what the elite in America looks like. - Yeah. And there's immediate judgment. You're lower class because you're Indian or you're not, you're an immigrant. Like these literal, literal status, like literal immigration status. - For sure. And this parallel's perfectly, the other huge difference between you and I, which is like, I'm always, I was always trying to be as different as humanly possible, and you were trying to blend in. So again, I like being the dude that doesn't look like he should be at the hotel. I actually enjoy it. It doesn't like, I don't leave going like, they think I shouldn't be here. I get off of the fact that I'm here. - No, I know you do, but yeah. - Probably in an unhealthy way on the other side of it that you're experiencing at these stores, I get a real buzz out of being a trailer park kid who's there. - I know. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare. (upbeat music) - I mean, I was thinking this when I was home and in Georgia the other day, we were at, I was at the town green in my town. It's very cute, so cute. - Is it a restaurant outdoor space? - A big outdoor space. It's like par, amphitheatre, restaurant. - Delus got it going on. - Oh yeah, it's really cute. And it started to build, the town green started to build when I was in high school. So the amphitheatre got erected and then, there was a soda shop and then some other things, right? And people, they do movies or concerts and we'd all go and it was so fun. But I always, obviously, I fell a little on the outside, always. And I think, when I was back in town green, walking around and it's also changed so much. But I was like, I do think I have to acknowledge that part of the reason that I am drawn to nice things and shopping and ironically, it's the same thing you're doing with the tattoos, fuck with me. It's the same thing. It's walking in and saying, "I'm not to be messed with here." You can't kick me out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's all different versions of the exact situation. Yeah, it's like the opposite side of the same coin. Yeah. So I did acknowledge that that is part of what's going on. Yeah. It's like if you know you know. Yeah, I have some if you know you know. Yeah. My hypervector 2000. My skin burning. Oh, your machine. Did you bring it home? I ordered a second. Oh, good. I was like packing on Monday. Yeah. I'm staring at this big contraption I got, right? Yeah. And I was like, hmm, I couldn't leave it here. Yeah. Because it's plenty of time to do dermatological work. I'm there four times a year. How often do I need dermatological work? Oh. But then I was like, man, if something starts driving me nuts in LA and now I know how to get one. Yeah. Not that expensive. I should have one in LA. So I ordered one the day. I was about to pack it and then I ordered one. Great. I love it. Monica. I have the results. I don't know what side it's on. But I burnt off this hyperplasia that has been driving me nuts. It was like the size of a jelly bean. Oh, not in its thickness in the diameter. Uh-huh. And it was raised and it drove me insane. Oh, yeah, yeah. I couldn't stand it. And I zapped it off. That was the first thing I went after. Did it? Is it gone? Totally. And today, like the scab has come off and it's like a little red, but it's flat. Wow. I'm like, damn, yeah, this fucking machine is awesome. I want to burn it. I was laying in bed. And the door walls in front of me. So the lights coming from across my feet up to my face. Yeah. And I can see in my chest. I'm like, oh, from this angle. I'm seeing if you see so much hyperplasia that you zapped off. I'm like, I got to figure out how to lay at this exact angle with that light and my unit. Oh, wow. Oh, my God. There's a lot of zapping to come. I don't think I could have this machine in an age of not-chette GPT. Because I have this machine and I have the wand. And I'm looking at the wand and it has three buttons. So I'm like, huh, what are those buttons? Yeah. And so I take a picture of the wand and they say, what are these buttons? Uh-huh. And it's like, that's your hyper, whatever the name of this device is. That's a hyperbaw 2000 and that's the wand and that buttons for this and this buttons for that. Okay. And then it goes like, do you want to know about the different settings for the different skin things this is used for? I'm like, yeah, tell me every single thing about this fucking machine. Because there is a power setting out of 20 dial and you can plug it into either high or low. I'm like, I don't know. My instinct is like, let's go low. I mean, let's go high and let's get to zapping, right? Right. So I'm glad you didn't do that. Yeah. That's for big moles. If you want to get rid of big moles and you don't touch the skin with the wand, you hold it just above it and then it arcs and that's on high plugged into the high setting. Anyways, I'm just like, I read this whole thing and of course, you'd imagine I have some pushback in my house about having this thing and among my friends, certainly online. But my argument was like, no, I do not, I'm not claiming that I know as much as a dermatologist. I have, I have 100th of their knowledge. Yeah. But if you tested a dermatologist and I about that machine, they would not, they would not beat me. I know every single thing about that machine now because it's learnable and it has a fucking owner's manual. Right. And sure, they know everything about the dermis. Yeah. They learned all that. But ultimately they have this fucking machine they got to use and they got to learn everything about the machine and what settings it is. So I would argue, no, in this one domain of a dermatologist, I know everything about that. The machine, but you don't know necessarily like what shouldn't come off. Well, okay. The immediate concern people would have, which is very legitimate, is like so often you need to get a biopsy thing you're getting rid of to make sure it's not cancerous. But guess what? That's really detectable. And taking pictures of it and AI is really fucking good at telling you which ones are problematic and what's not. In fact, in many studies, they're better than radiologists are at identifying that stuff. Well, I'm gonna, I'm glad and I like that that's a pro in the AI call. I'm sure the comments will be filled in this fact, Jack, about all the reasons I shouldn't use it. And guess what? You guys are right. Sure. And I'm going to use this for the rest of my life and we'll just see if you know how it goes. Everyone will get to evaluate it at the end of this journey. I now have two. If you want to come over, I'll fucking zap anything. Oh my god. It's not anything. No. Because like, you have to be a little careful. Oh, of course. I'm not going to try to remove someone's big mole. You're not. I doubt I'll ever be on high with that thing cranked to 20 with a big arc and fucking sizzle. I doubt that also the numbing create like we need more. Anyway, AI, that's a pro. Okay. I had a bad experience with AI while you were gone. Okay. I had a question. But one, two, go ahead. Okay. Very bad. Well, not very bad, but bad. Like, they didn't help me at all. And the thing that I felt like it should help me. So I already told you this. But so I was out of my capra, my seizure medication. And this is what I do. I always put six pills when I get them into this teeny baggy. And I put that baggy in my pharmacy that goes in my purse. So I always have some extra if I'm out stranded or something. Yeah. You get more ruined. Exactly. So I went. I was out and I hadn't requested a refill yet. So I was like, okay, I got to go on my stash. And I went. I got two pills. Took them. I go upstairs. Then I'm going to take the rest of my medication, which is a statin and my antidepressant. So I take my antidepressant. And then I get the statin and I look at it. And I'm like, huh? This looks exactly like the one I just, the two I just took, but that's so confused. I was so confused. So then I'm taking all these pictures and sending it to AI and asking like, what is this pill for? It can't figure it out. And I'm saying, let's feel really shocking. I know. And I said, it's either this or this. Yeah, which is it? And then it said, well, if it's one of those two, it's more likely that it was like not sure. And then I was like, well, I'm going to die because if I took two of the statin, which I should say, I actually take half of the statin pill. So four times the amount of statin and no seizure medication, that can't be good at all. But I don't know if I did that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So then I go to bed and I'm actually trying to not sleep because I'm like, I shouldn't sleep. But if I sleep tonight, I'm dead. Okay. Can you have a seizure? Yeah. And then the statin. And a heart attack or something. Yeah. Okay. And so I did have a really weird incident that night, but I think it was maybe a panic attack. Psychosomatic. So, yeah. Okay. And make it through the night. Yeah. Oh, I did in the middle of the night, ask it. I said, what happens if I took four times the amount I take, they said, how much do you take blah, blah, blah? It basically said, you're probably fine. Yeah. But if you get more, don't take it tomorrow, like it did whatever. So then I make it through the night. I'm very happy that I've lived through this. Okay. Then I, but I'm still not sure. I'm like, actually, probably I just took the capra and it's fine. Then I go to the pharmacy the next day. I get my capra. I look at it. I didn't, I was right. I took four times the amount of the statin and no capra. I did fuck up. Okay. Right. Which means when I put it in the baggy, I put the statin in the bag. But hold on. Also explains why the AI was confused because there was no picture of capra on the table. No, no. I took a picture of the statin. Okay. And I said, what is this? Yeah. I said, I said, it's either this or this. I wonder if you could have just said, what is it? I think I did first say what is it? And it was confusing. I was like, no, it's either this or this. And then I was like, could be Tylenol. I was like, well, it's definitely not Tylenol. Yeah. Um, you're no help to me when I'm dying. So that's a negative in the AI. Well, here's what happened to me. So, okay, I get, I get to Nashville. You know, there's army core of engineering land in front of my land between the lake and my land. Because the army core owns the shoreline of the entire inner coastal. Uh-huh. That's how it works. So there's restrictions on what you can do on their land or you can't landscape it, you know, you can mow it, you get a mowing permit blah, blah, blah, blah. It had been cleared in spring and I get there and it's mandated to grow up fast again. So I get a fucking zero turn mower. I'm out there just chopping this shit out everything and everything so long. So it's flying everywhere. Also, I bought it at lows, got it home, drove it off the trailer. And now I'm sitting on it and I'm just driving around a little bit. Then I'm driving it in my backyard, not cut to a mowing. Right. I'm in shorts in a fucking Italian dinner jacket, right? Uh-huh. A tank top. Uh-huh. And I don't think about poison ivy. I don't, it doesn't occur to me. It's out there. So I get poison ivy everywhere. Now again, it could be from that mowing thing. Also a tree fell over on the army core land from a nice storm. and I had to go out there and cut all that up. So I'm also out there with the chainsaw. I'm stacking shit. I'm like, you know, I'm getting busy. That time I was covered, but the first time I wasn't. So I'm inclined to think it was the mowing thing. It's just throwing the shit everywhere. So I get poisoned, I be brutal, man. On the tops of my hands, on my wrist, on my leg, all over my ribcage, on my mom's pubis, yeah. It's everywhere. And it is, you know, I had it once, four years ago, on that trip home from Boston, where we had to sleep in the airport, but then we went to Larry's friends house, and then we went a little hike in that next morning. I got it then. So like three or four years ago, I got it too, but just on my legs. Well, this was fucking everywhere. So it's like, most of my trip to Nashville is still. It lasted like three or four weeks, right? - Yeah. - And so Eric and I are about to work out, and he like got outside and he's sitting on the steps in front of my house like the little walkway from the driveway to the porch. And he's just sitting there and I walk out and he goes, is this poison ivy? And I look and there's these two, I have two bushes that greet you. You've seen them. - Okay, yeah. - I take pictures of it, and I say, what is this? Now, the AI knows I already had poison ivy, and I was taking pictures out in the Army Coraland, and I found a big patch of poison ivy. - Okay. - And now we know what to look for, and now Eric does two, like serrated blades, three leaves, and then generally like red on the stem where they come together. - Okay. - So he's looking at this thing and he's like, dude, it has all those things and I'm like, yeah, no shit. Take a picture of it, upload it, and it's like, yeah, that looks like I'm almost certain that's poison oak. - Okay. Okay. - And then I email the video of that to the landscape architect, the guy who installed it in my builder, and I said, guys, is there any way that a poison oak was planted, definitely, which is insane. I'm like, is the guy who installed it who I've had little or, like, did he fucking play? - Oh, no, that's no. - Literally my head went to, how could poison oak end up as decorative? - Okay. - So I send it to all three of those dudes, no one responds. So I have a full day, well, not a full day. I had probably seven hours before someone responded to that. So I, I'm so pissed about the fucking poison ivy I've been dealing with. I, dump gasoline on both. Both plants, right now the audience is already panicking and you're right to panic. So this is a huge blunder, I shouldn't have done this. I make a long trail, I light it, boom. Fucking torch these two bushes. - Okay. - Okay, so public service announcement. Okay, and then let me finish. And I'm like, that didn't really do it. I go to, back up to Lowe's, I get a ton of roundup. - Okay. - Specifically for poison oak and poison ivy. Come back, just douse these fucking things. - Oh my God. - All done with this. Finally in the evening, my landscape architect who I love. He's like, no man, that's not poison oak. That's low gross sumac, which looks like poison oak. - Okay. - Often confused for poison oak. And I said, well, they're gone. And he said, did you torch him or round up him? - And I said, polls. - Yeah. - And so later I learned, you can't burn poison oak or poison ivy. The oils can get into your lungs. - Oh my God. - And then you can roll around. - And then I meet a dude who I have out to do some clearing who says his grandmother died of burning poison oak. - Decks. - I know, I know, I know. I'm admitting it. - Okay. - I know, I'm in trouble. I was in trouble with everybody, as you can imagine. - Yeah. - It's just so pun intended rash. - It is, it is. Yeah, five mic, something's a threat to me. - I know. - Yeah. - I'm just like threat neutralized, threat neutralized. So I destroyed these two very pretty bushes. - That's horrible, I look awful now. - Well, we had to dig them out and throw them away. And yeah, it was a disaster. And it's A.I.s fault. 'Cause A.I was like, that's poison oak. I'm like, I can't have poison oak greedy. I mean, how many times have I rub my ankles in this bush walking in the house? - I know, but then we all would have had it. - Although I also learned that I'm not an expert on poison ivy. It's an allergy, right? So many people, the oil doesn't do anything to them. - Really? - Yeah. - Interesting. - And of course, it would make sense, I have, 'cause I mean, so many allergies, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a weak little boy. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Fragile. - Wow. - So that was my story. - All right, time for facts. - Yes, it's gotta be. - This is for Chris Young. - What a story. - Oh, yeah, wow. What a story. - I know. Some people are just so resilient. - I mean. - Things he has gone through. - And the fact that is immediate instinct was, what's that reading? - I know. - It's so impossible. I aspire to that level of, let's make the best of it. - Me too. - It's very man's search for meaning. - Yeah, well ding, ding, ding. That's a fact, Victor Frankel book man's search for meaning. - Yeah, Victor Frankel. - Yeah, incredible story. I really hope people listen to this one. Sickle cell. We talked a lot about it. I was just gonna give exact definition. - Yeah, let's talk about it. - Sickle cell anemia is a severe inherited blood disorder defined by mis-shape and crescent-shaped red blood cells that cause chronic fatigue, painful blockages and organ damage. I can't believe he had, it's like a-- - On top of everything. I know, I know. - And helps you not die of malaria, it's adaptive. That's what's crazy. - He said the quote, "faith the size of a mustard seed can move a mountain into the sea." He says there's different versions of it. It's from the Bible, yes, it's Matthew 1720. Because of your little faith, he told them, "For truly I tell you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will tell this mountain move from here to there and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Oh, I was looking up the different pardons that the different presidents have done and like how many and stuff. So are pardons the same, they are, right? - Yeah, yeah, I mean, I too was like, why are they calling this clemency a pardon? So I don't really know the distinction if there is one. - Rob, you wanna look it up? - Yep. - Yep. - Don't believe the answer if it tells you it's poison ivy. - Pardons just a specific type of clemency. So clemency can mean shortening the sentence or delaying punishment. A party completely forgives the offense. - Got it, okay. Okay, so FDR had 3,687 pardons. - 3,600, how would even hear the names of all these people? - I know, I don't know. - You must have trusted somebody to curate that list. - I bet most of them do. - Truman, 1,913 pardons. Eisenhower, 1,110 pardons. Then we get into more art. - Recent time? - Yeah, so Reagan, 393 pardons. - He was stingy with his pardons. - Well, you're about to see. George HW Bush, 74 pardons. - Oh geez, he was clamped down from there. - Yep, Clinton, 396 pardons. - Okay, went back to the Reagan era. - Back up. - No, we'd like to see it in higher. - George W. Bush, 189 pardons. - Oh, he's got, does he have the record? - No, 189. - For the lowest. - Well, no, HW Bush, 74 pardons. - Of course it would be, okay. - Obama, 212. - Not a lot. - Trump, 144, Biden, 80. So we're back to not that many. But maybe it's 'cause like, I think a lot of people don't, in quotes, like pardons. I mean, I do. But you know what I mean? It's like tricky. I think some people are like, you're just letting people out. - You're gonna get grilled over it. - Yeah. - And there's, of course, gonna be questionable calls. - Yep. - You could choose to incorporate the cultural context in which those people were operating. - Mm-hmm. - Or you could, you could choose to ignore it and just go by what happened. - This whole story, Chris' story, is about taking in context in the whole person and where they are now. - Yeah. - And it's important. It's so important. - Yeah. Yeah, like, is the world better with that guy rotten and imprisoned or out among us? And in this case, I think he's definitely better - Exactly. - For everyone out among us. - I agree. - I think what's so, like I really like this. A lot of people don't like these things. I like when something challenges or forces you to acknowledge someone you don't like did something you like. - Oh, I know with Trump. - I know. - So, like, I've told a handful of people, I happen to find out and I'm not allowed to say my source 'cause I asked the person if I could repeat it and they said no. - Okay. - But I've dealt with somebody many times in a kind of customer service capacity and the person gets tipped and I asked him and the person deals with a lot of celebrities. And I asked, I've dealt with this person enough. We have like a friendship, this person. And I asked him, like, hey, will you tell me the biggest tip you ever got? - Yeah. - And he said, yeah, and do you want to know from who? And I said, yes. And he said $5,000 every time I ever dealt with them Joe Rogan. - Yes. - And so I've told like five or six people about that because, hey, I love that. I really love that. I just love when people money fucking showered on it. - Of course. - Right? - And it's the right thing to do. - It is. - And it's shocking how few of the people people I know with money do that. - Yeah. - And so that's a rad part of Rogan. And so I've told that to a couple of people and they were like, eh, I don't buy it. Or like they-- - They're skeptical. - Yeah, or like he's got some ulterior motive. Like he's out here trying to clean it. And I'm like, dude, he doesn't know any. Dude, that's a really cool part of it. - It's a cool part of it. - And I, and the people that have had a really hard time accepting that about me, right? This thing is funny. So yeah, this, this, this Trump thing is like. - I know. - Yeah, I think it's really awesome when somebody who, you think you just-- - It's unexpected. - Does something completely that they didn't need to take their time to do gets them really no cultural capital in their base. And they did it. - Yeah. - And you gotta, you gotta incorporate that into this multi-dimensional thing that we all are. - Yes. - And any time that happens, I just really like it. - I agree. I agree. I was very surprised. And yeah, I think it's hard to give credit to people you hate. - That's like human nature. - Yeah. - But yeah, in this case, thank God he did that. - Without him, this dude's not on a boat. - Yeah, thank God he did that. - Just the fact, yeah. - So, yeah, I agree. Okay, Brian Stevenson quote, each of us is more than the worst thing we've ever done. That's in Jess Mercy. That's exactly what Chris said. He got it right. That's it. - I have some bizarre, like, romantic notion. I think there's something really cool about being self-educated in the manner in which he was. Because every, most of us have become really educated, adapted to some format that other people decided was the way to study it. It's like you have an intro to this class. - Yeah. - You're not jumping to whatever book. You know, there's like an order of things and you have departments and everything else. And I do have a fantasy that, learning at all piecemeal like that, allows you to kind of come up with your own cohesive through line to knowledge that isn't compartmentalized by humanities or social science or this or that. And I'm a little envious of, I kind of wish, I acquired my knowledge in that way where it's just like, I followed this interest, which led to this interest. And then when I stepped back from all of it, I'm like, oh wow, kind of covered everything that you would in college. And it wasn't prescribed or done or doled out in someone else's idea of what that should be. - Yeah. - There's something really cool about these people who become extremely educated in prison. - For sure. - Just grab and books out of a library. - Yeah, I agree. I did, I have been thinking lately that like, I am so old school in my beliefs about education. And I, like, it's changing. Like education is changing and I am very against that. And I'm, like, aware that I'm on the older end of this. - Oh, it should go. - Yeah, 'cause I have real opinions about education. And it's veering into a different direction. And I'm like, ah, that's so bad. But maybe I'm just old, I don't know. - A couple of weeks you'll be a little older. - True. - Happy birthday. - Mm-hmm. - Not yet. - All right. - I love you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)