Chloe Malle’s vision for a new era at Vogue

We had many conversations about whether in this moment of presidential hubris, we wanted to be celebrating America as the only thing we were celebrating. There are so many ways that we are being inundated with things that we should be paying attention to, and that's from TikTok to Instagram to our newsletters and our email. However, I actually think that makes folks authority more important. I want that magazine to feel like something you want to keep. This is NewsMakers, NPR's biggest interviews. I'm Steve Enske. We question some of the most influential people of our time. New episodes drop whenever they're available, and the best way to stay caught up is to follow or subscribe to this show on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you watch or listen. You can also find us in the NPR app. Today, NPR's Michelle Martin is your host. If I say Vogue, what comes to mind? A thick glossy book filled with expensive clothes, shot in exotic locations. They met Gala, Madonna, the Devil Wears Prada. But at the end of the day, something your mom and her friends are into. How do you take that iconic brand into the future? That's the question Chloe Mal has to face as the new head of editorial content for American Vogue. Well, I just have to tell you, I have never been so nervous about what to wear to an interview. Oh, well, I love this suit. Well, thank you. It's a beautiful color. Thank you. Thank you. Do people, like, I know you have kids. When you drop off your kids, are they like checking their outfit to be sure they're like-- I think that they are checking my outfit. And so I feel pressure to be on point. I mean, when I'm driving my kids off at school, I'm always going to work, but at like a birthday party on the weekend. And I do feel a certain pressure to look nice. So you've been in this chair for what, a couple of months now, you were named last fall. You actually started what, like February was like the first edition that you kind of got your hands around, right? It was announced the Tuesday after Labor Day last year. And I felt that the announcements that effective immediately. So it was very much sort of hit the ground running, which I appreciated. And we had several exciting digital audio video projects that I was very involved with that rolled out throughout the fall and winter. And then my first print issue came out in February at the beginning of New York Fashion Week. This is the time of year when kids are graduating from college and they're trying to get that first job. So a lot of people want to know, I'm sure people ask you, they certainly ask me this, how did you get that job? So how did you get that job? How did you get that job? How does one get into Vogue? It's, I mean, it depends how far back we want to go. But I do think that some advice I always give young people when they, if they ask, I try not to give advice, people don't ask. Well, I'm asking, how do you get that job? Not for me. Always take that for a friend. I believe strongly, because of how unexpected my career path for me has been, always take the meeting and always never have a preconceived notion about what you think makes sense for you or doesn't. And I began my career in journalism at the New York Observer in their newsroom. I was writing about real estate, the day-to-day transactions of New York City real estate. It was a great way to learn about the way power moves in New York. And it was such a great training for breaking news and what it was like working at a true New York institution. And then I was writing features for them and I started writing, I went freelance and I started writing for the New York Times style section. And I did a freelance piece for Vogue and then I got a call that they were interviewing for a features editor for the magazine, what was then called a social editor, but had nothing to do with social media. It was someone who was editing the front of the book, the beginning of the magazine section about weddings, parties, young people who were out and about the sort of frothy fun section. Back in the day, that was the women's pages. Yes. Exactly. You're just being honest. Back in the day, in sort of general and just newspapers, that was the women's pages. So did you have any qualms about that? You're thinking, wait a minute, I'm a serious journalist, I'm not doing that. For sure. I thought, you know, I don't know that I want to be writing about parties all the time and a section that's called Flash and opens with an id girl is that what I want to be thinking my teeth into. And then I went to Vogue and I interviewed with many people. I did two days of interviews and I spoke to about eight or nine editors and every single one was smarter, funnier, sharper than the next. And I thought, oh, this is a place I want to be. And these are people I want to be surrounded by. And I think there's, I take red joy in writing about weddings, editing books about weddings. I was a party reporter for many years and I love writing party reports because it's such a great way to describe a place and what people care about and who people are is through. I mean, writing about being a fly on the wall for a charity gala is, there's so many, that's what Tom Wolf is made of. It's that kind of social observation that is some of the great writing. So I do think that you can find ways to be challenged and excited by things that might not be navigating the straight of her moves. What's that for though? I mean, a lot of people, you know, most people go to parties who never get written about, right? Right? So people read that and I don't know, is it like nose pressed against the glass? Like, what's the goal of that kind of reporting? Is it, because I think a lot of people see it as kind of, you know, maybe, maybe now that's like personal branding or something like people want to kind of be in the mix or back in the day, maybe it was how you get a good match or marriage or something like that, right? What's the goal of that kind of reporting? Well, I think for a place like the New York observer or for Vogue, it's about this is, this is what fashionable people are wearing, talking about, thinking about donating their money for charities that they care about. This is, there is always a, I want to know what glamorous people are doing element to that and seeing the photographs of what women, I mean, this has been historically from, you know, we can look at the Regency era. People are looking at, there have been illustrations of what women wear to events and what they're doing there and who they're talking to and I think that it's still as interesting to know. I still read event reports from writers that I trust in. But you know those people, right? You kind of, didn't you kind of grow up in that milieu? I mean, you, you know a lot of those people, right? Yes, I don't think it's, so for people who don't know a lot of those people and just, just to sort of get it out the way for people who don't know, both of your parents are famous, right? Your mom's Candaceburg and your dad's William All, he's, and they're both famous in their respective fields. So for you, was it like anthropology or was it like sociology, like was it like, what, you know what I mean? For somebody like me, like my dad was a firefighter and my mom worked in the store. She worked in, actually she worked at Bloomingdale's in the invoice office, right? For me it would be like, huh, this is a world I do not know. Like, what's it all about? What's it like for somebody like you? Well, I think there's also different, that absolutely used to be true, maybe 50 years ago, that event reporting was one type of society event that was in a certain neighborhood in New York, it was a certain demographic of person. But now it's fun to see, you know, on Vogue.com, we cover events around the world that support different ideas that are celebrating different institutions or moments in the calendar. And that is, feels oftentimes very different from the milieu I grew up in. And that's fun for me to be able to feel like I am in those places and seeing what they're doing. For example, we just were talking today about the Native Son Awards is an organization that helps support and invest in young, not necessarily young, but queer black men. And someone on our team is attending and he said, I think it would be a great organization for us to cover their event. And that's not necessarily a milieu if I went that I would know everyone. But how fun that I get to look at those photos and see what people are wearing there. And also for me it becomes, in my current job, sociological because I get to say, oh, that designer are they choosing to buy? What are they wearing? What fashion is that the group of people who are attending that event is going to be wearing and buying different things, then the moms I'm going to see at my end of your preschool event. So that kind of leads to a question I had about Vogue. When you were growing up, what was Vogue? to you. Vote to me to be honest my true my first relationship with Vogue was in college and it was I the way that now there's certain magazines that arrive and I just can't wait to rip into them. I felt that way about Vogue in college and that's because it has always been the fashion authority and a fashion publication but I was always most impressed by how much more it was and the type of profiles it was doing the people that it was highlighting the stories it was telling and the breadth of those stories. But do you remember how you first encountered it? Was it something that was always around? You know I think my mother subscribed to Vogue but I remember my first memory of Vogue I don't know that I can tell you but I do have very strong memories of buying it at the new stand at the Amtrak station in Providence, Rhode Island. I would go back to New York because I think like people my daughter is a so my daughter just graduates from college. They get their style cues from Instagram like you know and obviously Vogue is on Instagram it's on a lot of these platforms a lot of that due to you but but I don't know that they think of Vogue as as like I I must go get that and see what's what's happening it's so instantaneous now it's TikTok it's Instagram it's like what I will say is that that's absolutely true and there's it's a very different calculus that goes into it used to be Vogue would come out once a month and that would be how you see what I should be wearing what I should be buying what trends came out of the fall fashion shows Vogue is telling me the things I need to know because I might not be getting it elsewhere now you cannot avoid it just on your phone you are there are so many ways that we are being inundated with things that we should be paying attention to according to the worldwide web and that's from TikTok to Instagram to our newsletters and our email to text that we're getting from stores I just stores just are texting me I'm like yeah stop um however I actually think that makes Vogue's authority more important and I think that having so much noise coming at us all the time there is a real need for an authority and an authenticity of Vogue is telling us sure I've seen this this type of scarf styling or bright color color blocking layering on all my Instagram feeds and in newsletters oh but Vogue just did this editorial on it and it's the best photographer and the best stylist and it's the absolute chicest version of what that can be that is what I'm gonna think about and that's confirming what I've been seeing everywhere else but Vogue is saying it and that's true for our our cover and celebrity talent as well a lot of people become famous through Instagram now from TikTok and they can have a huge platform but the minute that they have a Vogue cover and that cover is shared with our 50 million plus followers it's a different moment in their career and in how they are established in the way that they're public facing you the the long time iconic editor of Vogue on a winter when you were first named to the role said that you're not a fashion obsessive right is there something you're obsessed by oh there's a lot of things I'm obsessed by I love fashion and I'm think it's a really powerful exciting way to communicate and I love to see what people are wearing I love getting dressed in the morning I love seeing the new designers work and what people are doing I am passionate about books I'm passionate about film and theater and my family and art and food and my friends and people who make me laugh that's a lot of things so Vogue's got to be pretty thick then to carry all those to carry to include all those things you you know you worked your way up at Vogue on a lot of different platforms I mean you were social editors you just told us you helped start the run through podcast charge of the website and now the print magazine as well so how do all those things fit together I mean you just mentioned you've got like 70 things that you care about and that you love and presumably the same is true of the ways that people will receive Vogue so how are you going to prioritize all that I don't know if it's about prioritizing but it is about creating a holistic experience across the different platforms and ways that people are engaging with Vogue and for me I think about that as the print magazine remains for me the center of the bike wheel and it's a way for us to really be clear with people who we are and what we stand for and how lucky and exciting that in this moment in time we now have spokes coming out of that bike wheel that speak to all of our different platforms and fanbases and can really engage people from podcasts to the app which has its own exclusive content to our YouTube videos our social videos and TikTok series the Vogue business which is breaking news on Vogue on fashion news all the time we really have a place for everyone to come and I want people to feel there is an entry point for any type of Vogue they may want now I was when I was thinking about talking with you I couldn't figure out what I should call it like is it is it a magazine like what what is Vogue I still call it a magazine because to me that means more than a print publication but I like the word we we use brand a lot but it makes me to me it feels to like toothpaste corporate and yeah exactly we're not close to toothpaste but it feels like but it's still the magazine to me it's it's the magazine but it's also it's me sound tripe but it's it's also a way of life and a way of telling people this is a variety of ways to think about fashionable living gracious living there was a long time editor of Vogue animal woman chase and she didn't interview at the beginning of World War II and they said why is Vogue important right now why are you continuing to publish and she said Vogue is a publication for gracious living and that is as important now as ever before and people living in a way that is compassionate and thoughtful and makes them feel pride and reminds reminds them what they are fighting for is as important as ever and I think about moments like that and the idea that Vogue should be able to meet people in different places and whether we call that a magazine or a brand I think we I just call it Vogue which you know essentially I'm glad you brought that up because I think some people maybe you agree with me I don't think there is as much snobbery around fashion today in sort of just as as something to talk about as there may have been even ten or fifteen or twenty years ago I would be honest with you like I remember being as a journalist I remember I was telling one of my colleagues the story that I was filling in for another host who loved baseball he loved baseball so much that he actually took time off one at one point to be a play-by-play announcer for the summer so I was filling in for him and I decided to do a show about fashion and I got so much I'm not sure what word I can correctly use here what word can I use I want to say crap from people like that not necessarily people in the building but from listeners who are like oh my god how dare you you're ruining his show like when you talking about this nonsense and I thought some of it was sexist I mean like that's girly so it can't be important and I was like excuse me this is a major industry it's certainly a major American industry it's a certainly a major international it's a global thing and presenting yourself into something is something human or something human in it so I don't know that anybody would call up and say that today like I don't know if in response to this conversation anybody's gonna say that but we do as a society particularly because you're the editor of American Vogue as a as a country we are facing some really serious challenges and I do wonder if anybody says to you gee why should I as a thinking person put energy into this right now when there are many people and I could argue people from different perspectives argue that really some of the fundamentals of our democracy are crumbling and what would you say if someone were to say look I don't know that I as a caring thinking person as an American why should I put energy into that right now what does anyone ever say that to you and what do you say I don't know if people say that to me but it's certainly something we discuss internally at Vogue and I think there are a few answers to the question for me personally and one is I think that joy is really important no matter what the time. And I think that bringing joyful moments, moments of celebrating people we are inspired by, people we care about, who's work is important. And moments that feel quirky and delightful and unexpected is really important. I would also say that Vogue is a huge platform. And it is a very important endorsement and can be if used correctly. And for example, our new, our summer issue, which is out right now, we made the choice a few months ago that we were going to make it our American issue. It was loosely timed to the 250th anniversary of the US. And we had many conversations about whether in this moment of presidential hubris, we wanted to be celebrating America as the only thing we were celebrating. Would that be what we wanted to focus on? And I felt very strongly that it was because there are so many Americans and facets of American life that are thrilling and inspiring and exciting, and that I wanted to be highlighting. And how amazing that we could dedicate an entire issue to doing that. And as you said before, the American fashion industry is a behemoth and it is a multi-billion dollar industry. And this was actually the first time that we Vogue in its history dedicated an entire issue to only featuring American designers. And that could be designers who were not born in America, but now have America, US-based brands, could also be Americans who now design at other brands overseas. So we were flexible with what that meant. It wasn't this didactic decree, but it was an important statement that we support this industry and we are here for American fashion, no matter what the moment in our political establishment we are. - The other thing I noticed about the June issue is that the array of people and bodies is quite diverse. I mean, there are a lot of African-American and Hispanic models and figures and characters. I mean, it's based in Texas. There's one photo shoot that's based in Texas. And it's an incredible array of people. There are three sort of featured models, all of whom were born in Texas. One of whom is Ruth Dange, who's of Sudanese heritage, her parents came from Sudan. - Both her parents were came from Sudan and were quote unquote lost children of Sudan separately and then found each other here. And she has six siblings who are all in the shoot and they were so amazing to cooperate with it 'cause they all have jobs and so it was a scheduling discussion of could we do it on a Saturday and when we were planning this quite epic sprawling three-day shoot across Texas, photographed by Tyler Mitchell and styled by Carlos Nazario, we really wanted to photograph at Big Bend National Park and it was at the moment when the government was threatening to build a wall in the middle of Big Bend and that the day we shot the photograph, the editorial that plan was pulled back. But it was right around the time that we were doing it that that was no longer being pushed through and it was very exciting but also reminded us of the urgency of a lot of what we were doing and photographing and was the idea that this might not be here anymore it might not be available for this purpose anymore. People might not experience it in the same way. - We photographed a lot of this issue actually, not a lot of it but we were very conscious of photographing in national parks or public lands that are under threat and I think that any reminder for people of the incredible public lands of this nation that are so under threat by this current administration is really powerful and important and so for us it was about what if this spectacular vista is no longer here? And we, because truly the dang family, there's a photo of some of the sisters standing in the middle of this river and-- - We're in incredible ballgowns. - We're in for dark day ballgowns, I know, taffeta. - Yeah, the middle of this river but I'm also thinking about look I mean I'm obviously African-American I'm thinking about these are tall, willowy, dark, complex people whose physiology, whose bodies, whose heritage has not always been seen as beautiful and as worthy and you are photographing them in very expensive gowns in this gorgeous place and what you're saying is what, what are you saying by doing that? - Ruth dang, Vogue should be so lucky as to have Ruth and her family in Vogue and Ruth and her family, I felt so thrilled to be able to feature them and that is what Vogue should be, that Texas shoot which was such a wide variety of individuals who all have such fascinating personal stories and paths in their career and their personal lives and being able to follow those different threads to me is what I would like Vogue to be representing gracious living as I use the end of woman chase quote again even though it sounds old fashioned but this idea of living beautifully no matter what your circumstances or despite circumstances or because of circumstances that one, we can go back to the idea of uptown party reporting. That's not the Vogue that we're looking at today. - You were photographing the part of the shoot was the marching band from Texas Southern there was a gospel choir, there was an escaramusa team which for people who aren't familiar it's basically like, I don't know how to describe synchronized swimming at the rodeo. - It's like female rodeo, but synchronized rise with these fabulous outfits and also like a fry it was actually a Thursday night like sort of a dancing dance hall. It was a dance hall. - I think it was line dancing. - I was just trying to think if it was. - I guess I would call it line dancing I don't know whether they call it that but basically it was like everybody was there it was like everybody was there. And so in a way is what you're saying is that graciousness comes in all forms? - Yes. And also this goes outside of the Texas shoot but to me, someone who really symbolizes the idea that I'm speaking to is now governor Deb Halland who just won primary in I just got governor yet. - Sorry. - Now she's a Democratic winner. - She's a Democratic nominee for governor in New Mexico. - She will be governor but yes, you're right. - Well, we're not in the prediction business. That's not our job. - Secretary Deb Halland. - Former Secretary of the Interior. - The first Native American person to hold that role. - We photographed her and her daughter Soma for this issue in New Mexico and also with a beautiful scenic vista of outside in the mountains. And she is someone who I have long looked to and been really inspired by the way that she uses fashion and style to speak to who she is and what she cares about. And as you well know, style of Capitol Hill is sometimes constraining. There's a lot of quite boring skirt suits. And Secretary Halland somehow always managed to look completely quote unquote appropriate for whatever scenario she was in politically and yet incorporate the most beautiful personal accessories, pieces, scarves that are either indigenous or just something that felt personal to her. And I feel that that is something that's underestimated about fashion is how powerful how you present yourself can be. - Well, I think that's one of the things that the former First Lady Michelle Obama understood very clearly. I mean, she just published a book about some of her style choices. But speaking of the Obama's, we're also in a moment of backlash. I mean, it's very clear that some of the things that they brought to the White House, the people they brought to the White House, were not received by other elements of the country. And it's almost like a sort of a visceral reaction to that. And I wonder if you ever wonder whether there will be a similar backlash to the kind of embrace of different kinds of graciousness that you're bringing to Vogue. - I don't worry about that. I consistently, whenever I feel daunted or unsure about something, the only thing that I find to be a real throughline for myself is to be often a real throughline. to what I care about. And I'm inspired by. And I think that as long as Vogue is representing people that we really passionately believe in, then if some people don't like that, then that's a choice we've made. And your advertisers and the designers who want to present there and also the many of the powerful people who would like to see themselves in Vogue. And what if they look, I don't want to be in the same magazine as X. Why Z? Well, that's a shame for them. It's a tricky question for me to answer because I can't quite imagine I don't feel that. I'm really proud of who we're featuring and what we're celebrating in our pages. And I think that our commercial and business partners will be as well. Well, you've already made some difficult decisions. I don't know if they're difficult for you, but they seem like difficult decisions. Just since you've been at the helm, like you've decided to publish two fewer editions every year. And I understand that the logic of it is that fewer editions, but make each one more of an event. But that doesn't that feel like a loss in a way? I mean, for something that people were used to seeing monthly and then it, because it went already went down to what 10 editions, right, a year. And then you made the decision shortly after you arrived to take it down to eight editions. And I understand that the idea is they'll be thicker, bigger, but fewer. But doesn't that feel like a little bit of a loss in a way? I understand why some people might see it that way. More traditional media types. I personally think that it makes sense in this moment. And it's something exciting about the way that this moment is for media, which is that we can be sharing folks content and journalism and fashion editorials all the time in so many different ways. And the print product is one of those ways. And as I said, it remains one of the most important brand totems. But I want that magazine to feel like something you want to keep. In the old days, people would receive magazines, they needed it once a month, because that's how they got their news about the fashion world, the quote, women's pages, as you say, what the trends were. They don't need that monthly anymore. They're getting it every day, every second on their phone. So these need to be special moments that are themed rather than monthly. So it's a March spring fashion issue, a summer issue that's celebrating American narratives. And if people buy Vogue in the airport, I want them to take it from the plane with them. I want them to think twice before they leave it on the airplane, because this is something they want to keep. We have invested the money that we, the resources from the two issues that we are no longer publishing has been reallocated to making the paper thicker and the printing difference so that it feels more like a collectible that you want to have on your coffee table. Well, just going back to an interview you did with Anna Winter, again, a long time editor who's now moved into a sort of a different role, but you did a joint interview with her for The New York Times, where you said, well, gee, if I had the kind of budget, you were asked this. If you had the same kind of budget that you had that she had like back in the day, you'd pay your writers more. And she jumped in to say, look, our budget is still ample. I get that, but it does speak to a moment that a lot of us are experiencing, who are part of legacy media, which is that, you know, how do you keep attracting people into this field when people can you, can you earn a living? I mean, can you earn a living? Can you, could somebody follow your career? Could somebody replicate what you were able to achieve starting out freelancing and working for a newspaper and doing some freelancing on the side and kind of work your way up? Is that path still possible? Especially is it still possible for somebody who isn't well-resourced who doesn't maybe have something to fall back on? And I just wonder if you've thought about that. Is there a way to could a could a could a could a Chloe model from Queens? Make it today. I hope so. We have a lot of extremely talented, passionate young people on our team who are creating work that I'm really proud of and they are excited to be working at Vogue and to be writing for Vogue. And also to be working at a company that allows us to publish what we want to publish and follow our journalistic instincts and ethics and that is exciting in this moment. And whether if Chloe malware from Queens today starting in the industry, whether that would mean she thinks about making some decisions about where she's living or what she's doing or if she's doing some freelance work on the side then you know I'm sure that that's a conversation people are having constantly and absolutely look it's absolutely different than it was 10, 15 years ago as a freelance journalist but it's still an exciting time to be in media and I think an important time to be in media. Well it's certainly important but I don't know did you watch the devil was brought up the second one did you see it you see it well you know for a lot of journalists it was like a documentary right it was like way too real like for people because it opens I don't want to ruin it for anybody who hasn't seen it yet but it opens with the and hathaway character having gone on to have a sort of distinguished career as an investigative journalist the outlet that she works for like everybody gets laid off which is one of the ways she finds herself back at the magazine and like I say a lot of journalists and also people who appreciate journalism watch that with with a lot of sadness because it's just too true it's just too true and I do wonder if you you know as a person who has been tasked with leading this publication this this entity into the next era does it scare you in a way just as you and I are speaking now some very distinguished journalists have just either quit or been fired from institutions that many of us have looked to throughout our entire lives as like the beacon and I just wondered do you ever feel scared like am I am I going to be able to keep this thing going so that I can then hand it off to the next Chloe Mall I don't feel scared I certainly think about the future and the dramatic shifts in the digital landscape and the media landscape and I talked to colleagues at Trust about that and what types of strategic shifts we should be making or planning and thinking ahead we should be doing but I feel a great privilege to be a steward of this brand and I think that folks power is in the way that people trust it and I think that we are at a moment where people want to trust individuals and also a media institution a legacy media institution like folks I think that actually of course I hear you in all of the examples you are giving but I do think that we are at a moment where trusted legacy media brands can and should be more important than ever well thank you so much for talking with me thank you for having me see what you come up with we've already seen so much for me I can't wait to see what you come up with thank you so much before I have to go I do have to ask though you know Anna Winter was famous for the Bob and the sunglasses like do you have something you're going to be famous for oh god oh here she is with the smile oh the smile well of course that's why the news does not keep a schedule and neither do we new episodes of newsmakers published as soon as they're available any day of the week the best way to stay caught up is to follow or subscribe to this show on Spotify YouTube or wherever you watch or listen you can also find us in the NPR app newsmakers rely on supporters who value independent journalism and a free press you can join NPR plus today to support our work and get perks from the podcast you trust just go to plus dot NPR dot org I'm Steve Enskeep thanks for listening to NPR's newsmakers