Chinese Peptides Hit Silicon Valley

Medical disclaimer, please note that the information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered medical advice. Always consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health regimen, including starting new therapies, supplements, or treatments. While we discuss cutting edge research and advancements in cellular medicine, individual health needs vary and professional guidance is essential. By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge that neither Dr. Seeds nor the podcast team is providing personalized medical recommendations. On today's episode of Redox Revolution, don't buy your peptides from China. Welcome to another episode of Redox Revolution with not the infamous, but the famous Matthew and Maddie. Wow. I think infamous might be better than famous. I think you're famous now. Yeah. Good. I think there's fame involved. Okay. We'll go back to infamous. You could be famous. Yeah. That's for you. I'd rather be the man behind the curtain. No, no, no, no, no. I'll take all the hits. You know it's not behind the curtain anymore. Who? Whoa, what? Peptides. Oh. No, they are out and out. They are out and about and who would ever thought it would be where it is? Do you have like a tummy ache? No. I'm just like, come on. We, today we're going to discuss that New York Times article from last month. The Chinese peptides are the latest biohacking trend in the tech world. The gray market drugs flooding Silicon Valley reveal a community that believes it can move faster than the FDA. Wow. What a title. What a line. Yeah. Oh my goodness. So many buzzwords in there. It basically highlights the dangers of research peptides and other low grade products. And you're probably pretty tired of hearing about this kind of thing. But hey, I mean, at least it's getting at least if there is an article talking about peptide use, I'm glad it's differentiating the sourcing of peptides. I'm glad that that is now becoming a thread that can be distinguished. That tells me the conversation is a little bit more informed and moving forward. And it's interesting watching the trend of peptides be put into kind of the same kind of the same dynamism that's been used to scale software in a way. That same risk tolerance, that same we're not going to wait. We're going to break the rules and we're going to let the rest of everything be built around us. I don't really think it applies here. No, because it's your health. Literally, you're putting it into your body. You can't take it out once you're ready to put it in. Yeah, this is a trigger for me, for sure. Same. I mean, I first I better make the disclaimer here, especially with Silicon Valley that can be so reactionary and very, I want to set my record straight right now. I am pro science. I'm not anti innovation. I'm pro biology. I'm not anti technology. And I'm pro patient. I'm not anti market. So I want to get that clear as to how I make when I make my statements here. It's all about protecting people and it has, I know Silicon Valley has their own rules and I know how they work fast and they move and it's all about speed, but sorry, biology doesn't work on a clock like that. And in particular with what you just talked about sourcing, which should be very concerning to everyone because we've known about this and we've tried so hard to educate our patients and our physicians and healthcare providers that sourcing of biologics, these biological peptides are signaling agents. They're not supplements. They're true. They have they have effects on this cell that your, if you can't, if this process of synthesizing peptides can't be regulated or you can't, you have problems. In, in validating or verifying purification, I think there is recklessness there and then taking something and, and introducing that into your body that has significant consequences that may not even be realized today, but definitely will in three, four, five, ten years. We've talked about this from, from many sides and I just, and some people did get the consequences right away from, correct. Using those peptides, but yeah. Well we, we see it in our practice. Unfortunately, we see all those problems where, where people have made very poor decisions and there, there's a reason that we have a system here to protect ourselves, the FDA. We have a, we have a process of looking at for GMP processes and products. We want to know what toxicities are. We want to know what the purity is. We want to know what the contaminants are. We want to be able to third party validate through, through respect to us, we, through HPL S's, the high processing liquid chromatology to, to validate what we're using. We want to know the pharmaconetics. I mean, all of these things, people don't understand are, are crucial to these peptides that they're injecting into their bodies. Well, kind of similar to AI, there's a little bit of pattern recognition going on and trying to extrapolate things. I mean, the article quoted one of the open AI researchers is saying that nasal oxytocin is quote, ozemic for autism. Say that again. In open AI researcher was saying that nasal oxytocin is quote, ozemic for autism. That's just that bold. That's dangerous. That's scientifically illiterate and that's ethically reckless. I mean, really? Because now parents are going to go get oxytocin online because they hear that. Well, here's, here's somebody who has some influence that's, that's totally out of their league. I mean, let's just talk about that really quickly. I mean, 50, 50, it works. GLP ones are totally, GLP one peptides are well studied. They're metabolic peptides with predictable peripheral metabolic mechanisms. Oxytocin is an, autism is a, is a neurodevelopmental problem that demands incredible knowledge in, in how different influences can lead to autism, which we know, which are multiple and, and significant. And oxytocin is a modulator. It can be a neuro modulator that also depends on, on sex. It depends on neuro development. It depends on age. It depends on environment. I mean, it's like you can't even make that. You can't take a peptide and make an assumption. I mean, that's just crazy. And that gets me, that really is, that's just so wrong. I don't know how to say it any better than what I said, I guess. It's a, and if there's a response out there that's like, well, you know, Dr. Seeds, you've been using and prescribing peptides for how many years now. I think the important differentiator is to say you've been sourcing them historically through 503A compounding pharmacies. It requires a doctor to read prescription. It requires a doctor to be, you know, involved with the patient's care. And 503A's are registered with and regulated by the FDA. And well, and we also go above and beyond of requiring, we want to know about the facilities. You want to know about the, the third party testing. Yeah. You know, and which the online sources have gotten. Oh, they sort of put in all those buzzwords. Yeah. And they're like, oh, we got the certificate of analysis, which is, which is bullshitting. I mean, it's kind of a shame that at this point, they're marketing. They shouldn't be marketing. I mean, I know. It is like that direct marketing on TV, which is bullshit, but this is just, this is worse. They're marketing phrases and, gosh, we just looked at, yeah, we did just look at a pharmacy yesterday. We looked at a 50, somebody had turned sent in this thing about a 503B. They had bought a 503B license or something. Yeah. And we went back through it and looked at how they, the website basically still had the lower MIPS or the FFUs. Are you, what a more fake site can you have and fake bullshit? I mean, it just, it's so, it's so, this is where social media moves so fast. I mean, Silicon Valley moves fast. Social media moves faster, but, but biology doesn't move that fast. And education and understanding doesn't move that fast. Well, and I'm not saying whether I agree with this or whether it's a good or a bad thing, but the reality of the situation is by and large, the FDA moves in swift swells. It doesn't, it doesn't really apply a bunch of tiny nuances to one situation. It says, yeah, this is it. And this is what we're doing. And I feel like in large part because of this influx of Chinese peptides, I mean, the FDA basically has these warnings now and is trying to impose these rules of saying a lot of these peptides pose serious safety risks because of, and they cite potential impurities in immune reactions. And the unfortunate part of that is if you're sourcing correctly, not only are those impurities not there, but it's not that immune reactions are out of the question. It's that you're working with a doctor who can help you or who can help guide you through those situations. So it's kind of unfortunate that personal use is legal and that most doctors are having to advise against peptides entirely just to kind of block that safety risk. The FDA restrictions just made, I feel like the online sources thrive where the ones who are doing it right, aren't either. It doesn't help either when doctors are out there pushing them. Yeah. Just pushing research stuff. I mean, there's the, there was the incident the other year of those two women getting those reactions at that one that, oh yeah, the one conference. That one Vegas conference with two women went to the hospital because the doctor was there injecting them with research peptides. I mean, that's common sense. I mean, come on. Who does that? Yeah. But it gives the whole industry a black guy because everyone just sees peptide, which again is why I'm very thankful the research article is Chinese peptides. But yeah. But yeah, I'm very exhausted of having patients come, well, I can get this peptide. It's like, well, it's not a real peptide. Well, I can get it. And so a few episodes ago, I mean, we discussed your research study, right? And the importance of clinical and human trials. What do you think it's going to take to get a lot of this human research funded? It's going to be hard. It's going to take government involvement. It's going to take philanthropy. It's going to take individual philanthropy. It's going to be a combination also of big pharma, possibly. All everybody contributing to the same mission of helping us do something that is desperately needed in that evidence-based research to validate indications. But it also, it's going to take the government, it's going to take the government to step up to maybe take a stance in wanting to validate this whole space, to put their stamp behind the right resources, the right checks and balances of these pharmacies in a way that is a higher standard. And we actually know that maybe potentially in the works. And maybe that'll be something we can discuss later as that, if that comes to be a real process. But that's what it's going to take. We need to be, have rigorous standards and not policing, but I think more education for these higher standards and what's available for patients to make more informed decisions. I also feel like medicine almost needs to change in general as well and want to become more preventative instead of reactive. I feel like that whole framework needs to shift for this to even get the attention as well. And that's going to be a difficult place because of the incentives that are there and money that we can't control. And I mean, the money aspect is so interesting when we look at costs and a validated safe peptide is expensive. And it only is because there are small numbers of it being made and there are mass numbers of people that want them, but it can't be made in mass production because we're just not in that space yet. Where it could be pennies on the dollar, it's not there yet. And to do it right and do it better, it's expensive. And I think people are looking for that when they see that cost and say, oh, I could do it for this. It just dilutes the discussion and it puts a veil around where they lose that credibility thought. I do want to set a cost spectrum though because what you're calling expensive really is only about one third of the sliding scale. But getting a responsibly compounded peptide from a compounding pharmacy, let's just call it a couple hundred bucks, that's still not nearly the cost of what some of these commercially protected versions like the ozempics and wagovies that are above a thousand dollars are. I think people are conflating two numbers and they're like, oh, getting the commercial one is going to break the bank and I need government assistance to do it or I can just get the $50 Chinese version. It's like no, this middle one does exist and this middle one could get cheaper at scale if it got more focus, but it's getting hit and squeezed from both ends. Correct. Very true. And I feel like the dangers themselves also start to compound because I mean, you read more into this article and just a couple other quotes I want to pull from it. Online advertising of unauthorized peptide, formulations grew nearly eightfold from 2022 to 2024 and that's from research from legal script themselves. And then there's have you heard of these peptide mixing parties in like places like San Francisco, just people getting together where they all bring their unconstituted, right, these unconstituted powders and they learn how to reconstitute them together. And just like it's a called a peptide party. You see some images in here of like peptide raves where they're all wearing neon and they have like a DJ there and have we lost our minds? Why weren't we invited? Have we lost our minds here? Where is this? Wow. I feel like we're not doing a good job then in what we're trying to do to educate not just the physicians but the consumers about various serious implications in their health where they believe they're doing something healthy and they're creating potentially catastrophic problems. Well and to play a little bit of devil's advocate, right? There are multiple examples in here of people who are doing this ordering Chinese peptides and seeing the results they're looking for whether it's one of these women microdosing GLP ones in a way that you guys recommend to many patients and she's seeing the benefits she's looking for people looking to wean themselves off of alcohol or gambling addictions by microdosing GLP ones. Some people doing some BPC injections or GHKCU injections that are coming over from China for a litany of different applications and they're seeing good results. I think all of our points is one when you're getting these unregulated peptides it honestly might work sometimes and it will probably work most of the time but you're playing a very low odds Russian roulette and you really want to be playing a biological roulette. Oh there it is. Number two if you're experimenting on your own body you don't have a doctor who's able to help you out of an issue if you get into it and then number three and this is at least something I've tried to get thinking on but I want your guys opinion on it. A lot of the protocols that you guys put people on are very beneficial yet you implement cycling off and I feel like when people are self performing these protocols they don't know a lot of those patterns they don't know when to cycle off they don't know when to take breaks and even if they are seeing good things again there's nuance to this. Well it just depends on what's being used but I think a bigger here's the answer to let me give you the answer that many people are not understanding about the use of these peptides. So a peptide when we talk about purity it can have and there are amino acids that are connected by peptide bonds and that amino acid strand is to some degree fragile and when you inject that in the body their fragments are cleaved at certain areas they break off. Well depending on the peptide and if you have an impure peptide that is not appropriately it's not 99.9% what it's supposed to be or close that means that that peptide you could still have an active fragment that may produce some of those results to make a peptide feel like it's working and then you've got a fragment that's biologically active that you have no idea what it's doing in your body and this is where the problem lies because we're not going to see the sequelae of this terrible problem for two, five, ten years maybe fifteen years from now that's just like what Alzheimer's it's just it's how these things can work over time where you don't see it immediately you think something's happening but then you get this other fragment that's doing some serious problems. Oh my God that's you people need to wake up because unfortunately we see these people who have done those things over years because this isn't something new it's just bigger now it's and it's it's horrible it's a it's an absolute problem. You know what it reminds me a little of? Every time I think of this these unregulated injections and people just sticking themselves with something that they got online. It makes me think a lot of the initial behind the curtain aspects of like the bodybuilding industry how like yes a lot of these back alley injections of these steroids that some dude would just have in the trunk of his car have gotten a lot of people very big. It's not that people have not seen the body growth results that they wanted with these steroids it's that every now and then you would see this news article of so-and-so body builder age 42 drops dead and no one likes seeing that stuff but when you're putting that this is what made me think of this as you talking about these biological agents and these fragments that are just floating around you don't know what they're doing. I mean that's the that's the roulette you're playing. And not even with like just the research peptides in general but the peptides that are all mixed in one combination. That's even. Yes you can mix some peptides but majority of them the glow stack. So how do we responsibly educate physicians and patients about peptide therapy? I think with what we've been doing already from the from the get go I mean it started day one I started teaching people about peptides it didn't nothing's changed as far as as focusing on the safety and then talking about the efficacy talking about understanding what we're trying to provide but that it has to come from the sourcing is everything and that's why when this first started we were very we were fortunate to be in a place of or I was fortunate to be in the in the early steps of how I could help these beginning pharmacies and follow the right guidelines in making these peptides and and do it safe and follow the third party testing that need to be done so we've done that and we started that process and then we saw very quickly how the market started changing with this introduction of these the Chinese peptides have been around for a while and of course and how they started getting into this market space and trying to manipulate other pharmacies by saying hey we've got the same GMP product take take our and then and also bypassing that and going right to physicians or healthcare providers and it got it was a it was a profit issue day one it's all about cost and what is the what how can I do this it came down to unfortunately greed costs that kind of thing and so you had your responsible providers and you had a lot of people that broke the rules and for providers who might be like new to peptides and still learning these groups that are coming to them they're very convincing like oh we're 503a and 503b certified so for a provider who doesn't know and is still learning I mean it's on the group at that point because they're they're learning all the right words to say they're very that's very true and we're trying to educate the physicians and healthcare providers to ask the right questions of hey get it let me let me see your third party verification let me see that this show me this is a GMP product here made in the US or you we've given those guidelines we've helped people understand that and I think that's where we're also for nourishing in the education side of making this responsible because the providers have to ask those questions because the other thing that they don't realize is the the medical the legal part of this is catching up and providers are losing their licenses because they're being they're they're providing care with with unauthorized peptides and and that's one of the biggest shame is when we get an email at the SSRP they're trying to reach out to you just reach out to the institute as a whole saying like hey I'm being sued by my patient because they had a really bad reaction to say like BPC and they're like I know BPCs great and can you help me out with my defense and can you send me papers and the first question is what was your source and where did you get it and when they show that they prescribed a peptide from a research use only where it says not fit for human use it's like we can't we can't do anything in the festival indefensible think that could be like the performance protocol anything that says not intended for human use is not intended for human use don't inject it and look on the websites it's a very thinly veiled disclaimer that is just meant to protect these shells yeah yeah it's a tough it's a very tough discussion right now because those websites that say third party verified 99.9% purity scroll to the bottom and that's where it says these products aren't for human use this is research use only that protects them but yeah not for long hopefully not for long great great discussion I think I don't think we need to be late this any further I think it got us all fired up so yeah it's it's just it's going to be a constant battle for a while but I think education is going to win over I think authority is going to win over I think ethics that are going to win over here and hopefully we're going to be at the forefront of that and helping everyone get to that this next step and where where we make a cellular medicine more powerful for the patient so thanks Matthew and Maddie for another really good episode and we'll see you later on Redox Revolution. 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