China's Biggest Threat: India, Japan & Asia's Power Shift | Sreeram Chaulia | FO542 Raj Shamani

آپ نے کہتے ہیں, India & Living Relationship, what do you mean by that? ایک دیس جو ہے چھوٹی تک پہنچانا چاہتے ہیں, اس کے لیسے بھی ہے, فلکس بھیلٹی, Living میں ہوتا ہے, چادي میں نہیں ہوتی. تو Living کا کیا مطلب ہے, Strategic partnerships. ہمارے ساتھ ملکہ روڑی ہماری بنتی Quard, 4 Countries, Japan, Australia & India, US. All of them along with India have concerns about China's rise & China's expansion. اور اس کو کیسے بیلنس کیا جہے, اس کے Quard بنا ہوا ہے. Prof. Shriram Chawalya, Foreign Affairs Export. He has spent decades studying Global Geopolitics & India Strategic Interests. آج وہ India کے سپسے Important International Partnerships اور ان کے پیچھے کی Strategy کو decode کریں گے. Let's start with Japan & Japan. I tell you, this brother-in-law is a region. جاپان کی جیس چین کے ساتھ کافی انبھانے ہیں, کیوں, Territorial Dispoot Centre کو آئیلند ہے. وہاں پر تو, اندونکمیٹ میں جو تقرار ہے. اس کا ہمہ بہت فائدہ ملتا ہے. What about the next one, Russia? Europeans were also expecting that we will be played in Russia. Because they attacked Ukraine. But based on our national interest, we never joined any sanctions against Russia. In fact, we increased oil and weapons which is during the Ukraine War. And that sent a message that we value our friends and our loyal ones are the same. Our next friend, whose friends? Critical moments in our history. 1998 when we did the nucleus. American Summit Subne sanctions were put in Western countries. Shriram Chawalya is not a Western country. We will not join any sanctions against India. India's Israeli friends. The main one is counterterrorism and national security. You can see that in Pakistan, this luxury type, such a hard core internationally banned terrorist groups. Their Hamas, Hisbala and other groups have to be a lot better. Both of us feel like we are facing the same threat. But as I said earlier, the method and tactic of Israel are different. We counterterrorism doesn't do so much overwhelming disproportionate force. We are a little calibrated and proportionate type of attack. They are an overall bombary. Do you think every country's friends try to make friends? They don't become superpowers or not. You have also said that Japan and India together. We can take them to Asia or China. What do you mean by that? If you have found anything valuable from this channel, please subscribe. It's free. It takes less than a minute. But it means a lot to us. And to listen to the audio experience of this episode, please follow us on Spotify. Whenever you want to transfer money from another country, it's very difficult to find such a platform where you can exchange rates, and transfer money safely and time. This problem solves tap-tap send. Through this, you can directly bank a account or send money to the U.P.I. You get a competitive exchange rate. And the process is so simple that you can transfer money easily without any stress. And the best part is that you get money quickly and securely so that they don't have to wait and worry. For our viewers, tap-tap send is providing a special bonus offer. Use the code "Figuring Out" to avail the offer. And to learn more about tap-tap send, check the link in the description below. [Music] So I want to start from that point. You said that in India, in living relationships. Right? So tell me, what does "India Living Relationship" mean? Who does "India Living Relationship" mean? Who does "Date" and who does "Shadhi" mean? Tell me. Shadhi is not with anyone. Meaning, Alliance. In international relations, you get the balance of marriage. We have never done Alliance with any big power. And it is a big cause. Because we call it strategic autonomy. In India, we call it "Swight". "Samuric Swight". It is to be made because our ambition is to make great power. For that, we need to make someone's last move. You know what I mean? I mean, if you made your car from an American wagon or made it from China, or Russia, or someone else, then you can't make a big power for yourself. That is why we don't get married with anyone. So that is why I have given an analogy. What happens in living relationships? You have a friend. But it is not exclusive. You don't have to live with him. He becomes your wife. You are based on interest. Why do you become his wife? That is why you live with him. But it is not necessary that he is a monogamous wife. You have some other friends. You have that kind of youngsters. You know better these things. We will be on the planet. So today, we don't understand social structure. But what I am trying to say is, a country that is going up to the top. It wants to reach the top. For that, there is flexibility. And there is flexibility in living, not in marriage. So, what is the meaning of living? Partnerships. In English, strategic partnerships. So, strategic partnerships. What are the most important things we are going to do? My book was recently launched by Dr. Jai Shankar in Delhi. So, your audience, Dr. Jai Shankar's speech, which is on the website of the Ministry of External Affairs, which is on my book's launch, which is officially its own record. So, they have made a great speech on friendship and friendship. So, anyway. So, who has done my most important work, friends? This is the most important thing I have written in the book. Japan is in Asia. It is a very big close partner. Then you have Australia. Then you have US. You know, with us, we have a quad for countries. Japan, Australia, India, US. This Indo-Pacific, Hindu Prasad and so on. India is a quad UAD. No, it's not an acronym. It's not an acronym. It's a quad for four people. As it is a ticker, it's a quad for four countries. All of them, along with India, have concerns about China's rise and China's expansion. And China's power, China's influence, and what can be done in the entire country? And how can we balance it? We can get it in the Netherlands. This is why we have made a quad. So, these three are ours. As you can see, I have said, UA, United Arab Emirates or Israel. These two are very close to us. And with them, we do something that is very important for this country. This is our pastime. Islamist extremism, Jihadist terrorism. All these things, these two are with us to counter this. And along with us, technology, advanced investment, trade, all these things. So, this is also our big career, this is also our partner. After that, you go further towards Europe. I have talked about the art. I have taken it from India, and you are taking it from Japan. I will see you later. So, after the Middle East, you get to Europe. So, France is very important for us because we do a lot of things in the Indian Ocean region. Joint military exercises, cooperation, etc. And France is also afraid that the change of their traditional sphere of influence in the Indian Ocean is also based on the basis of the military presence. And China is going on with China. So, France wants to counterbalance a country like India. Counterweight. So, we can become one in India. So, so, we have a deep cooperation, interoperability, military, security, even defence. Even AI. Now, the AI that we have organized, we are doing this for the past time, we are doing this for the past time. AI summit and a very big meeting, bringing all the technology leaders. In advanced fields, space, etc. Now, EU has become a whole, because we have created a free trade agreement with the European Union. So, France is one of the seven, seven and twenty-six countries in the EU. We are becoming better with all of this. And then, further west, you go to the US. The US is in Russia. In Russia, I will come back to Russia in the past. In this arc, you will go a little further, then your US will come. The US has a lot of partnership, living relationship. But, there is only one problem with the US. It is a big strength, it is a great strength. I will talk about the rest of them. They are all middle powers. They are also not trying to dominate. They are not in their game, but they are always in the US. How to maintain, how to maintain their number one status in the lead. So, their conditionality, their pressure, their expectations. Like India or some other partner. They are more of an alliance type of marriage type than their expectations. They are exclusively our own. They are not going anywhere else or anywhere else. And my enemies, my enemies, have not met their hands. So, they have an alliance mindset. And this is a little problem with us. Even during the Trump era, even during Biden's time, there were problems. Because, when Russia was in Ukraine. بیڑنوانٹڈ کی بھارت جو ان کے پکش میں کھڑا رہیں اگنز راشا ہمارلے تو یہ بھی لیوینہ وہ بھی لیوینہ تو ہم ایک کو ایک کا پرےچ کر کے دوسری کے باس کے سے جائیں ایسنی ہو سکتا نا کیونکی اس کی بیزار ہوتے ہماری ان سن کنتکس اس کی بیزار ہوتے ہماری ان سن کنتکس تو ہم نے یہ تیٹھ روپ کرنے کی کوشکے تو last but not least راشا راشا ان سبی دیشوں سے تھوڑالا گیا کیونکی ان سب سے ان کی بنتی کاما ہے جتنے بھی میں نے بات کیوں جا پان سے لیکہ روستیلیا فرانس یہ سب بیسٹنلائنس اور بیسٹن پاٹنرس پرائیمارلی لیکن راشا آپ نے ایک پورسینٹر ہے دیکلین ہوا ہے اب وہ بات نہیں رہی جو سووویٹی سنک کے زمانے میں وہ ماشکتی مانی جیتی آج کے زور میں دو ہی ماشکتی مانتے ہم چین اور امریکہ راشا ماشکتی نہیں ہے ملٹری ہیں اس کی بڑی لیکن دلدل میں فسیویں آپ دیکھنے یکرے ان میں چار سال سے لڑھ رہے ہیں hadley 15 20% of territory liquor at heavy cost at heavy price تو راشا میں آپ وہ بات نہیں رہی ایکانمی اس کی کافی دول مول ہے راشا کی ایکانمی آپ دیکھے بارت سے بھی چھوٹی ہوای hadley two to three trillion dollars تو ایکتر سے دیکلین میں لیکن فیر بھی لگسی ریلیشن چی پہیں بہت پہلے سے ہیں اور یوریشیا جو ہم چیٹر کہتے ہیں یوروپ ریشیا کے بیچ میں جو مکست وہاں پر سنتر لیشیا اسٹن یوروپ این سب میں راشا کی ابھی بھی این فلون سے ہے ایسٹاریکل این فلون سے ہیں تو ہم ٹیل بھی کریتے آ رہے ہیں بہت سالوں سے ان سے ان سے بیریاز میں اگر ہمیں پر بھاوی رہنا ہے تو راشا کا فیسلیٹیشن ہوا شکھ ہیں انسان مدیزیر ہے ایذن افگان استان بھیاند and all these places تو راشا کا اپنا مدفنس میں ہم بہت کچھ کریتے رہے ہیں ان سے ابھی کم ہوا ہے ایک زمانے میں تھا 70% + بھارت کی پوری جو یہ جو اثر شسترے ہو سب ہم راشا سے کریتے تھے now it has come down to just 30-35% فرنس بل کی اولمس ایکو لوگیا یا اوو اٹھیک بھی کرسکتا راشا کو as a major military partner for India لیکن فیر بھی راشا ہے نا ایک تی ہی کامنی ہے نا 30% is important so Russia is important اب امریکنز کہتے ہیں کہ اچھا بھی آپ ان سے ٹیل مدھ کری دو ان سے ویپنس مدھ کری دتا تو ہم کیسے مانے تو ایسلے ہم نے ایک او ٹیٹروب یا بیلنس مینٹین کرنے کی کوشش کیا ہے انگریزی میں کہاوت ہے hunt with the hounds and run with the hares یہ کچھ لو کہتے بھارت کی نہیں تھی کہ ہم رشنس کی طرف بھی ہیں اور امریکنز and universalize کی طرف بھی ہے لیکن اس کا ایک فایدہ بھی ہیں over time کیا ہوا ہے جسے دنیا ایتنی ایتنی وہ پولریز ہوگی درووی کرن کہتا ہندی میں it's all divided تو ایک ایسی شکتی ہو جو بڑی ہے اور اوبر رہی ہیں محاشکتی بن سکتی اور ساتھ ساتھ دونوں کامپوں میں ان کا پیر ہیں یہاں پر بھی اور او در بھی تو اس کا اپنا ایک value ہوتا ہے وہ کیا کہتا میسنجر کہتا نا سندیش وحکو بن سکتا ہے ایک طرف سے دوسری طرف دیلو بنا سکتا ہے بریج بن سکتا ہے بھارت کو پول مانا جاتا ہے انتر راشتی راجنیت میں meaning we are connecting different competing sides and extracting benefits from all sides اگر آپ شادی کرلو نا فیر آپ کو دوسری طرف سے کوئی بنیفٹنی ملے والا ہے تو go back to the analogy اسلے میں نے یہ کہا ہے کہ یہ جو live-in wala model ہیں یہی for the future foreseeable future ہمارے لیے سہی ہے اب جاپان کو دیکھلی جاپان we all love japan japan is a close partner of art لیکن جاپان us alai hai اس کی وہ اس کی بہت ساری limitations hai وہ کبھی بھی ماشکتی نہیں بن سکتی ہے بھارت بن بھی کسی us limitations ہوتے آپ nuclear weapony test کر سکتے ہو جاپان کے آس پس چین کا اتنا بڑا خطرا ان کو جاپان feels it is being overwhelmed by china balance of power poor china کے ہاتھ میں اور جاپان is being suppressed or is being sidelined لیکن japan cannot develop its own nuclear weapony us umbrella کردہ رہتا ہے it does not have autonomy وہ چاہیس نہیں ہے japan is constitution وہ انہیں americans نے لکھ رکھا ہے ابھی سانای تاکے چی the new prime minister may be going to try amend the constitution بہت ان کا جو سموی دانے وہ کو دی americans نے لکھا ہوا ہے تو ہر طرف سے ان کو بانت کے رکھا ہوا ہے کہ آپ control میں رہا ہمارے آلائلہ ہوں us basis رہیں گے japan پر 4050000 troops رکھتے ہیں ہم آپ کو протیک کریں گے ہم ایباب ہے اور آپ you stay under us ان کا ان کا ملٹرینی ہے نہیں ہے it is self defense force بہتے for not a full-fledged military also تو جاپان پہ بہت ساری یہ پاہ بندیا ہے by what you being ally اب آپ you can youth ہو گیا تو یہ ایس پراکھر کا کوئی بھی крائیسی سو دنیا میں تو جاپان کو it is force not to take an independent line but it has to follow us line Automatically جاہا بھی us a boy decision شاگی شودہ ہے نا ہز بن کو فالو کرو it is a patriarchal type of relationship but now they are trying to break out of it with nationalism and new leadership shinsu abe and up saane ita kaichi but anyway so coming back to the point اگه بارت بھی اس طرقہ سمجھہتا کریں اور ایک کے ساتھ رہے جائیں تو we will lose options we will lose lot of stakes ہمیں ملٹری help chaiye ہمیں ٹیکنکل سا ٹیکنکل ہسٹنس چاہئے knowledge transfer chaiye investment chaiye trade relationships chaiye بہت کچھ چاہئے from many many parts of the world it is a diverse world تو اس میں you can't be boxed in into one corner اگر کر لیا تو آپ نے آپ کو سیمیت کر لیا ہے اور آگے آپ بڑنی سکیں گے اسلے میرا یہ analogy میں نے دیا تھا تھا کہ لوگ سمجھ سکیں ki and by the way یہ multi-alignment بولتے ہیں اس کو multi-alignment یعنے کہ ہم رہاں کے ساتھ بھی ہیں لیکن invest in countries کے ساتھ بھی ہیں اور اس کے برکس میں برکس میں بھی EXACTLY. So, these are all formations and all of them have their own elements, one is more important than the others. A lot of Americans expect that this is a brick-swix, this is a Bharat. Because of this, all the dictatorships are sitting there. Russia, China, Bharat are democracy. And you should take the side of Western countries and be with freedom, they say. The problem is, they themselves have a lot of alliances and partnerships with many undemocratic countries. But we come to teach them a lesson about the world's largest democracy, so you should start with democracy only. So, I think, you know what America is with non-democratic countries. There are a lot. Saudi Arabia is the biggest ally. There are bases. And all the Gulf countries that are both Bahrain, Kuwait, and all of them. The US has a very strong relationship. Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia are always together, mostly. Today, the Saudi Arabia is trying to break out of excessive view, dependence on the US, as Japan is talking about. But these are all allies. So, in that, in fact, frankly, it's Roosevelt, the president of the Diggaj, who is in America at the time of 1930s. Can you make it 4 times? Yes, at that time. The limitation was brought into two terms. So, FDR 1, 4 times. And he went to Gujarat last, I think, during his fourth term, during World War II. So, FDR was famous, in the context of a Latin American dictator. Someone said, "Okay, why are you doing this with them?" "What are you doing with them?" "What are you doing with them?" "What are you doing with them?" "What are you doing with them?" So, he is a human rights abuser and a dictator. So, he may be a bastard, but he is our bastard. And that's okay. Right? So, what I'm trying to say is, you see, there's no difference in politics. It's not like a beauty contest. تو اسलیو we do what we do this live in relationship type model تو ابھی آپ نے 7 friends voolay 7 friends voolay, 7 friends voolay, 1 keer کر کے بعد کرتیں کہ کیو ہمارے frienday ان کے ساتھ ہماری بھی ситуیشن کیا ہے ہم ان کو کیسے دیکھتے ہیں یہ ہمیں کیسے دیکھتے ہیں اور کیا ہم چیزیں سائی کر رہیں کیا گلت کر رہیں together so that we can become either better or worse so let's start with Japan Japan I tell you I have told you that this brother relationship is frankly not a Indian person, but a Indian person. and this is not a long time, I will tell you why Japan's situation when I said that China is very unborn and China is very precious to it because territorial dispute is a country where China has to be a country where China has to be a country where China is trying to protect Japan and Japan is trying to protect Japan. and Japan because US is a country where China is trying to protect Japan. China is trying to protect Japan because US is a country where China is trying to protect Japan. So both of these countries are very close to each other. It is very close to our country. How? Now I will show you a Google, Japan, East Asia, and Japan. میں ہے, چین کا ایسٹن سیبورٹ جو ہے, اس طرف پڑھتا ہے, ہمارے لے کیا فائدہ ہے, اس کا گر جاپان اور چین میں بنتی نہیں ہے, تو ہمارے لے کیوں فائدے مندیں ہیں, کیونکی اس سے چین کا جو پورa جو ملیٹری اور ایکنomics اور стریٹی جو فوکہ سے وہ بنت جاتا ہے, وہ پوری طرح ہماریوں پر حاوی نہیں ہو سکتا, جیسے معانلی جی even 2020 کے بعد گلوان کلاش کے بعد 50 ساتھ ہزار انہوں نے ٹروپس ہمارے ہمالےم پہ لگارہ تھا لگارکھا تھا نہر ایسٹن لاداک we resolved it we pushed them back, we were successful, but because they have simultaneously, اسی سمائے دوسری طرف جاپان کے ساتھ بھی ان کے خراбریشتے ہیں and competition ہیں, اس سے کہاہے کہ وہ سارے ریسورسیس جو ہیں چین کی 20 Trillion Dollar Economy کی چا پوری جو full might and force کے ساتھ وہ بھارت پہ پریشر نہیں دالسکتا, it has to handle that, it has a two front situation. two front say it has to be a part of it but it has to be a part of it. and even with Taiwan, Taiwan in fact we China wants to occupy Taiwan but the Japanese cannot accept it because if they do that then their security is going to be seriously imperiled. So what I'm trying to say is at that level of counterbalancing China, Japan has no clarity in any other way. And some people who have been watching the issue, sometimes there, sometimes there, sometimes with China but Japan does trade with China. It is an economic partner but on security issues, on military and geopolitics, they will never surrender or give up to China. Their history is really rivalry. So that's why we need a lot of Japan. And Japan is not only important for that reason. In my book, I've given Dr. Jaishankar's famous quote that Japan has 4 crimes in India. 4 revolutions, you know, in terms of technology, in terms of manufacturing, in terms of advanced know-how. Now North East, our Uttarpur Vijukshwar is a really less developed area. There, Japan is doing most of the infrastructure projects for us. And that is right across the border with the Chinese occupied Tibet and all are there. We're in a foreign country, we don't trust as much as Japan. Today, in India's economic modernization, this geopolitically counterbalancing of China, even stabilizing Indo-Pacific, Southeast Asian countries. Asian countries. In all, Japan is doing a lot of research. Japan can compete with China at some levels in giving aid and development assistance to weaker countries and poorer countries. So India also projects Japan as well. Like Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Bangladesh. In many of these countries, Japan and India are like a tag team. Nice. We coordinate, we don't have that much money, Japan is a rich country. But we have a manpower, we have technicians. And we have other trust of these smaller weaker countries, developing countries. So jointly, we are in third country. In Japan, India is a team, we do projects, infrastructure projects and skillling and all these things. So this is not possible because Japan doesn't compete with us. In any aspect, we don't compete with each other. So, the idea is that India is going to take place. So, for them, there will be less pressure in China. And there will be less pressure in Japan. And then, we also, the Japanese investments in India are incomparable. It runs into like tens of billions of dollars. Nobody or any other country has ever invested in foreign investment as Japan has done. It's more than US or Europeans or any other country. So, from that point of view, they think that India is a strong India, benefits Japan. This is the way it should be. There is no peace in which there is no peace in India or any other country. We are also geographically far away. So, we don't compete for this influence in the same areas and all that. So, that's the idea. But you have also said that Japan and India together, they can take us to China in Asia. What do you mean, Bhai? Alternative. It means that the development projects are infrastructure. In China, it is the most successful. Because it has started a Belt and Road initiative. More than $1 trillion, they have already committed. And what do they do in this? Manli, you go to a country like Myanmar or Cambodia or East Timur. Or a Pacific Island nation, small one. Or Naauru or some such place. What do they give us here? They give us chain loans. And in Kars, they make projects there. They make railways, road, tunnel bridges, telecom airports. All airports are made there. And in Kars, there is a long-term plan in Kars. So, you can't return to Udhar. So, we will give you a place where we will make a base for our permanently. Our military, our engineers, our civilians, our intelligence. All of them will go there. So, in this area, especially Asia, also in Africa and Latin America. Where there is also poverty, there is China. There is a lot of economic colonization. Economic colonization. That's the right word. So, what can we do with Japan? It is a little bit difficult. Japan has its own partnership for quality infrastructure. Which is, and there is also income. But only thing is unlike China. Democracy is Japan. So, it takes more time, more wetting of the eligibility of aid project. We didn't write the UNI in the book. There is a low by 10 billion in the book. And they don't do bribery. What Chinese do? Go to the poor nation, go to the president and catch the prime minister. These are small, you know, weak countries. So, in Lala, they will just directly bribe the president. First lady, important ministers and all. And they will keep their jeep. And they can never go against them. So, Japan is a bit slower. China's vocabulary is not so fast. But once Japan commits, the kind of work they do on the ground. Marvelous. Quality of the infrastructure is superior. More environmentally conscious. They don't damage the local people. They don't commit human rights abuses like the Chinese. So, that's why our and their milker, we are Japan. It's an alternative. That democracies can also do big work. It doesn't have to be a big, you know, only a dictatorship can shape the regional order. Even democracies can do it if they come together. Because the China is, you know, like a 800 pound dragon, literally. And they have been controlling a lot of countries. Like especially in Africa, you know, this. I think recently they took over airport of Uganda. Some port, some country, trains, some poor infrastructure. You would have to take them under control. And it's a kind of capture also. What they do is, it's called dead trap. And through dead, you know. If you're a prisoner, then you have some rights, right? Those who have taken the responsibility. So, that's how they try to take over those countries, you know. Effectively. And their long term game is that if in the whole developing world, all the global South countries, China number 1, you can displace the US. Or other regional powers could displace them. Then, you will not be in China number 1 in the world, you know. That is their long-term game through this Belt and Road initiative. So, I believe Japan and India and to an extent, US and India also, we have to collaborate more to push back. Otherwise, what will happen in our backyard? A country like Sri Lanka, a country like Bangladesh, Nepal. Every country is sitting in bed and through aid. And through this economic colonization, which you mentioned. So, what can I say about that? We don't have the same checkbook diplomacy. You can give it out or leave it. And in return, you become the boss. So, we don't take the checkbook diplomacy alone. That's why, Japanese are very important in collaboration. So, Japanese will give their bank account. And our street market. Manpower. And also, goodwill. And also, regional. Your readers should read Dr. Jai Shankar's first book, "India Way". It's called Shatranj's metaphor. As a democracy, we always play black pieces. Which means, the aggression and the first step will always change. Which is got white, first move. Because there are no constraints domestically. So, I think that I am totally disappointed. I want to rule the world. We don't want to rule. We need a multi-polar world. But we need a multi-polar world. empires hong gay and we are comfortable with that. But what is democracy? And our subbieta is America. They go for the kill. That's right. I mean maybe over time, you know, 18th century, if you can see before the Monroe doctrine and all, they were not intent on domination. You're right. Over time, that's what happened. The second world war is clear on card. Correct. They became global in projecting power and all that. They believe in dollar domination. Domination. Correct. They love this petrodollar thing. Correct. They re-dollarization. Yeah. But fear being treated for them. Dollar for them. All right. But fear be, you know, they do it more subtly. How be subtle? Like soft power is there. Yeah. Trade power is there. All these organizations of UNESCO and then control mayhem. Control. Those are their own. Formed by them. Chared by them. Funded by them. Then military power is there. But they don't invade and take over countries. Like like Russia and tanks roll. They have started to do that. Now Trump is going in different directions. And they have put an expo in the president. They have brought a market trend. Military interventions and all. But generally, they have a, a historian. John Lewis Gadis. His logic is that he said that America is an empire by invitation. Meaning a lot of countries believe that US is a liberal. And that will come for us and we will protect us against other rivals. Like I said, I said US bases here. Saudi Arabia, US bases. So, they don't outright occupy a country or take over it. And like Russia tried and Ukraine and all. Successful like really large empire by a country. Was purely by brute force. British did this. America did this. China just did this. It's a little late. I will kill you. Who knows? But because the president has been set by America. Yes. I know. I know. The president can also take over this world. And it's okay. Nobody is right and jungle is right. Exactly. Brute force only Russia has done that. Apart from that. Nobody has done it. Everybody goes to love. We want to increase our trade. Then we went to the country. We want to increase your interest in the country. Then you went to airport. Who knows? I mean to extend this logic. Who knows? One day Bharat is also like that. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? But I don't see it in my life time. In my lifetime. And for the factors I mentioned. I don't think we will be the same people. Because end of the day. I think. As of now, we don't believe in it. Indus civilization basically is on the idea that, you know. Vasudev Kutum Makam. We have our 7-7. You know. We have an ability to include and to work with others. We have our strengths and weaknesses. And so I think ultimately Bharat won't be the same. Some of us are like those who are into these kind of games. Great power games. But Joby, today, if you look at history. Which is a great power. I am not talking about natural occurrence or natural order. After war, politics, games, world like together. When these games start. When the super power is made. Across history. That's why by doing these dirty cheap tricks tactics. That was what, you know. The critics have been saying. But I think. In the 21st century. The method of becoming great power also is different. Because before, what happened? Unless you win a major decisive victory in war. In battlefield. You were not considered a great power. You were considered a status-affirming defining moment. Now, it's not like that. Like if you look at China. The economic, primarily through this economic colonialism. Only it has become great power. He hasn't occupied any outright. He will do it on Taiwan. But so far. So, in the last 20 years of China. How to make a powerful empire? It is mainly through this kind of non-militaristic approach. However, there is a colonialistic element in it. Imperialistic element is in it. So, I think in the 21st century. The great power will be made in a different way. Because war avoidance is there. Great power will lead to total destruction. And nuclear weapons will be in war countries. Now, all out of war, it may not happen. So, I think the pathway to become great power. Due to technological change. Due to changes in the economic interdependence of the world and all that. This is a different way. So, I understand that at least in our lifetimes. I am not seeing India as a villain. But, Shaktishali is made. In Shaktishali, there is no harm in becoming. And in order to become Shaktishali, we will do whatever we want. I think that is the message that India is giving right now. Just a curiosity question. Yes, we are strategically and politically in a good situation. Because we all are friends. And we maintain and go, which is a great thing. We did not do trade anywhere. We did not do oil anywhere. We did not do trade deals. We did not do import export anywhere. We are doing very well for ourselves. But, is that? That is the right thing to do today. Is what we all can see. And what is, all the world's experts are saying. West and East and West are saying all the good things that we are doing. I am just asking because you study so much history, you study foreign policy, you study economics, you study global politics. Do you think, every country is trying to become a friend? Is it a great power or not? Because then you are not polarizing half of the world and taking them your side and then establishing dominance, which we do in China and US. Like, in a lot of African countries, they don't support US. Not at all. And you can see that in the UN votes of Taiwan. You can see that, first, when China was not influenced there were about 30-33 African countries. It is not easy to recognize Taiwan. So, all the people in the US recognized Taiwan. When China's dominance on countries started spreading, those 33 countries voted that we don't recognize it. Including India. We don't recognize Taiwan as a country. So, it's a tricky space where China is now playing. Where US is also played. India is not playing that game. No, look at the resources. It's about, we don't have as many supplers as no. To do that, checkbook diplomacy and all. And secondly, we don't yet have a great power mentality. The whole world is my canvas. And if I make a compromise in one part of the world, it will help me in another part of the world. So, thinking of the great power logic. Now, our regional consolidation is the main objective still. South Asia and Indo-Pacific. This is our core concentrate. It's the first concentrate circle. So, you may see some of these behavioral patterns you are saying. And some of these things may be later in time. But we still have a sense of exceptionalism. Like, we are different from others. Absolutely. So, I think that will remain. And because it's a robust democracy. Look, the question is, what India is doing in this country. So, I think the debate in the discourse, naturally limits excessively reckless or excessively aggressive behavior. So, like counter-terrorism. Now, Israel is our friend. Many people say that Israel is taking over the enemy. India takes such small steps. We should be like Israel. We should blow the smithereens out of our adversaries. Now, I have explained in this book that you have to take along many, many, many countries together. And you need a lot of them supporting the UN General Assembly in the United Nations Security Council in different regions of the world. Now, we are adopting Israel's tactics. Overwhelming force, disproportionate force, which lead to a lot of casualties and a lot. So, these are the goodwill matters. We will lose with many quarters. Yes, I agree. The UI is also close friend and Saudi is something. So, we will forefeet all those things which are also beneficial to India. So, we will, I think, therefore, not adopt certain tactics or methods which may, I mean, power differential is ours. At least today, we won't, because we want to play. We won't resort to such things, yeah. We are at a level. So, we are probably tier two. So, we are tier one. Maybe then tier one, probably we will change. And you generation that will come up may think differently. For now, we are little cautious, yes. Even with the US, who are our biggest trading partner. Now, the deal we have done, the trade deal we have done with them, is in such a way where, I said it's a combination of firmness and flexibility in my Hindustan Times column. So, we have seen a little bit of loss. But on certain things, we have not given ground. We have not given full. So, as we are going, India seems like a very cautious and a shrewd operator who thinks that India is waiting for its time. Now, it is not time for us. And until that time, we will have to be a little bit conservative. not very aggressive or radical on certain aspects, second is the economic potential you know I mean a lot of people stop talking about human rights when they realize there is you know massive economic and investment potential you know they stop giving us lectures on morality when they realize that the money here can be made, right? So I think many of the countries that in the past what critical of us are less critical of us today on these issues on our internal issues because they realize it's very harmful to their own interests to upset this part like India. So it's good but yeah I mean maybe the pace of growth can be higher and all those things are you know domestic matters on which I'm not an expert but 8 to 10% if we keep on clocking for two decades we'll make it and for that to happen we need a conducive external environment Sarakwaj domestic reform in the labor code and you know industrial policies and all these are fine they are important but externally there is a conducive for an environment for us to grow and for that we have to take along all these friends I'm talking about you know there is a different thing in India and so we need those resources and therefore we are not closing our doors to anyone. First we have to talk about Japan. Second is our friend Australia. Australia you know is one of our fastest growing strategic partners. This is the first time we were on opposite sides because historically they were US allies and we were with the Soviet Union. I'm talking of Cold War trip. At that time even though we shared the common Indo-Pacific space we didn't have that much time. At that time also Australia used to fear Indian Navy. But it's a challenge. There's fear of influencing the Pacific Islands and these Malakas straights and all. Now what happened? Australians have realized they have become very over-dependent on China for trade and for economy. After COVID-19 pandemic they suddenly realized China can blackmail them hold them to ransom and they demanded a lot of concessions from Australia which on you know in return for you know taking back their comments on China, the Wuhan virus and all those things. So what they've realized over time is Chinese Navy also is expanding heavily in the whole region. So Australia has a backyard that traditional sphere of influence such as the Pacific Islands, South East Asia. All of them are more than China. And Australia has been slowly ejected from many places. You know Solomon Islands has been a small part of the Pacific. There Australia used to be traditionally a kind of influential power or the dominant power. China has realized that loans are given there and we say law and order will be maintained, security will be maintained. Suddenly Australia is saying that what happens to our sphere of influence? We don't have so much money to compete with the Chinese. So Australians now need to farm coalitions. So after this realization, in the past 10 years, we have had a lot of trouble with India. We have signed also interim trade agreement. Our trade has like doubled or is going to triple very soon. And the financial integration is much higher. Australia and India jointly naval exercises. They have a lot of commonalities now. And our diaspora is increasing. Japan is not in Japan but Australia is getting close to 1 million. But Chinese diaspora is much higher. But China, Chinese people dominant Australia is insane. That's true. And so, but we need Indians to counterbalance that dominance. What is happening is Chinese interference in Australia's internal affairs. Also grew. A client, Hamilton, has done silent invasion. He has written a book. It's about how China surreptitiously entered Australia through the diaspora, through investment, through loans and all these things, through trade. And began to start dictating terms to Australians themselves. What should be covered in their media, their politicians, what should be said. They bribed everybody in the system. They were trying to silently take over the country. So, its backlash is fear of Chinese take over. So, I think India is a good counterbalance. Our diaspora is in Australia. Professionals are non-political. They don't work as secret agents of India to try and interrupt the democracy in Australia. So, they love us. And, first of all, there are three C's. Cricket, Curry, Commonwealth. These are the things that Australia and India have called curry. Now, in a way, negatively China has also. The fourth C, in a negative sense, has also brought us together. And now, the level of economic integration is high. And, level of trust among the leaders is high. So, this is also a problem-free relationship. But, it's new. Unlike Japan, which we have cultivated from before. Australia has come around in the last 10 years. One of the fastest growing strategic partnerships. Now, we are doing joint exercises and all these things. These are crucial choke points. Geopolitical choke points. Chinese, the oil that comes from the Middle East, it passes through the streets of Malaka. Here, Australians and Indians co-co-Island say, they also have territories in the Indian Ocean and in the Indo-Pacific. There, we also go to the Navy. That is how we are going to be able to counterbalance the Chinese. And, economic wise, as I said, now, in a sky is the limit. The trade is growing. And, by the way, Australia, UAE, from both sides, we have signed free trade agreements. It's just opening up vast markets. And, suddenly, you see the results. Within one or two years, it has doubled our trade-in. And, it has been tripled. UAE has reached hundreds of billions. It may one day, a small country united Arab Emirates. May overtake China or the US and become our largest trading partner. That's also possible in the way things are going. So, what I'm saying is, we have done with Australia. And, they appreciate it. And, they want India to project power in their backyard and to cooperate with them jointly. We consult from Australia. When we go to Pacific Island nations, China, we don't go unilateral. And, we don't try to push out Australia and influence. We work along with Australia and jointly let us implement a project there. You know? So, I think, we call it a middle-power coalition. All these are middle-powers. And, as we are a bit defensive about our own backyard. That China has gone loose. And, we don't have to leave it. Whereas, Australia is also defensive. And, on the other hand, the birds have a feather flock together. And, they are common enemies. So, that's why. And, they are over-threaded. Exactly. Over-dependence on China, how do they do it? India is the biggest growing market for them. If they can sell more minerals to India, they don't have to worry about Chinese boycott and Chinese, you know, Black Mill. Yeah. I have a lot of Indian companies after COVID. They started investing a lot. They are like the large giants in the mineral space. And, I can tell you, our diaspora is like a living bridge. And, they are so dynamic and entrepreneurial in Australia. They are really, they know the Indian market. And, they can help Australia and investors better navigate the Indian market and regulatory system here. So, a lot of these transnational linkages are being formed at the level of FDI, flows and all that. It's going to a technology transfer and all these things we are working on joint, you know, in many fields. Australia is an advanced industrialized country. But, it's increasingly orientation is towards the Asia. It's going to be a bit different. It used to be originally considered as part of Europe only. Because it's a white settler's come. But, now they see the geography. The power of geography is there in this area. They need to keep China and check. And, they need to also find new opportunities. So, as long as India grows now, they can sell more to us. So, on all those counts, I think the congruence is very high. And, leadership level also, Scott Maurison. They know a lot of prime ministers are going to come. Australia sometimes people get confused. But, Anthony Albanese, the current one, has been in power for some years. And, he's got a very strong relationship. And, now this is a bipartisan support for India. Child Liberals, power, conservative, right wing, left wing, Joby, election, Jite, I and I prime minister are the old ones. For them, the consensus view is India is necessary for Australia security and prosperity. So, it's going well. And, our students are going. You know, it's a matter of time when all the US and Canada and European countries are going. Australia has become a big destination for our higher education also. They want to attract more of our fee-paying students. They have some top universities. Some of the skills they acquired there can be useful for start-ups in India. So, convergence is a very less conflict. And, this is another, this is going to happen. You know, it's not going to happen. And, ultimately Raj, you know, as India grows now, these people are going for work and economic opportunities abroad. And, settling down, what trend will be going on? There is a lot of people coming back. There is a lot of people coming back also, right? They are. So, I think, eventually, it will be your balance. I don't think, our Indian diaspora now is officially a part of the history of external efforts. They are saying 35 million. He is the number right. I think it will stabilize. It will not keep on happening. Where more and more people will leave the country. Because India is growing. Rather, foreigners will come here. Is that right? Ulta, we may have to handle some, you know, economic migrants. We already have a lot of illegal immigrants from Bangladesh, you know, it's running into a big demographic problem in eastern India. But, we may see more from other countries, where we will have to actually accommodate more rather than we're sending. So, south to north is a global south to developed. Because, because in the country, it is a state of foreign countries. It is a flow. But, India is a state of foreign countries. So, Ulta is also a state of foreign countries. So let us look for that kind of era where we retain the talent at home and in fact we attract talent from our side We are getting a lot of talent like people are making good money outside for 15-20 years and then they're settled coming back again And there are a lot of now people I couldn't return you after doing my PhD in 2009 I need not have come back to this country most of my peer was saying that there is an academic job to look for And some of you know colonial mindset is so much over history Some people say that you are going back to Matimari and you should try to get a green card and get a US citizenship We are not saying Hindustan, this is my land and I have to come back and build this nation and make it a superpower This is our little joke that is going to happen So I think that mindset will ultimately solve this immigration problem And it is happening this morning I met a comments like X He was a global leader at comments, he was chairman and MD He left that comments chairman and MD left that and be like I want to back I want to leave US, come back to India This is my mother land, I want to contribute here And now he is a professor So 8-10% global leader coming back And there are so many cases like you that this guy is too many people This is a good thing Even the IITs who once said that the brain drain is going on All our degree is on taxpayer funded education And then they all immigrated to the US Now I saw one of the IIT directors saying that Very few of them actually are immigrating after finishing Because there is a flourishing So I think India will be the magnet It will keep our folks at home, it will bring others to India And I feel like this strategy is also going to go out for some time For 5-7-10 years we learn how to work And then we get a skill transfer for a lot of funds and then they do You are like good job Like all start-ups if you see most of them Successful ones are US returns Because you have seen better things And you will want to bring those best practices back A lot of Unicorns are US returns in India That should be a good thing Okay So because we are talking about the US Third is US as a strategic partner You know like I said They have a great power mentality Alliance mentality They expect even partners Not allies So they behave like allies And they are not too deviant to move forward Not too deviant So the US sometimes gets friction with us But what happened over time Because there is a China factor Like Japan or Australia The US is also in competition with China So Asia seems to be counterweight Counterbalance of India So we have to show some what they call First they say strategic generosity We should show to India on many things Nuclear deal when it was 20 years ago And all that Those are all the main ideas behind that But now what happened over time They expect that if India is more integrated with the US It should also To our line on certain things And where we are They say that we are independent We do not have allies So it becomes unbound Like trade war Which Trump has started That is partly out of expectation That we should listen to them Or we submit or not We have not done that Like I said we have done balanced trade With them And on certain issues We are seen as Adiment or stubborn So okay Rising power should be like that Atma Samhane Amara Compared to Pakistan Which says that we have a hero See I am showing it to Baksa Khol Asim Munir is saying You can mine all the raerats And take whatever you want So we are not going to sell our core resources To anybody like that On a platter So India because self-respecting country Rising power and ultimately Great power will be made There is still a friction with the US But it is manageable End of the day What is the overall relationship? It is so big The country that is with our partner With more than 50 mechanisms By lateral dialogue mechanisms On so many issue areas From trade and technology To defence and security Energy, climate You will be lost And you will live in the scratch of your heads In East Vishya India and America We can be very successful Many such issues Issue areas, topics, sectors So we talk about the thick relationship And we can't make a trade war With more than a year With less trust Because We didn't think that On 25th of September Extra tariffs will be applied Because of Russia But whatever is left And we have been Savvy in dealing with them We understand the great power mentality And we have played around That great power mentality of the US And made sure Where we compromise a little bit We have done it But on the other hand We also have to get benefits That's why we said It said to be fair Balance and reasonable Whatever outcome is there And I think They realise that India is too big An opportunity for them to let go Or to lose all together A lot of people In fact, Trump never knew They don't love me as much as they used to Before but they will start loving me again Meaning India And it's very clear Because people are saying that The feedback is so negative Our diaspora is there We have 4.5 million people You know the bilateral trade Overall If you take goods and services More than 200 billion dollars You can go to 1 trillion for 500 billion A lot of market opportunities will be wasted If there is trust is broken So from today They have understood That India is better to understand This is a big deal If you don't have a facility You can't stop them So that we have managed And it's a very deep relationship With China Contrabalancing China is a geopolitical and security The integration of the technology sector Now you can see The services are very high in between And Big American companies are investing Huge amounts You are Amazon A Microsoft, Google, Innsap 70 billion dollars Something they are committing New investments in India So clearly It seems to be a democracy And at the same time Very big market Middle class is growing So how can we let go of this opportunity And we have played that card well That market access If you want to support us Then you should also support us in Ulti Disha So it's a win-win kind of a thing We have done with them And at the broader level There's a lot of I think a common English language tradition A lot of Our immigrant community is there At diaspora is big So all these factors make it Net positive Some negative sides We have to manage that like I said Expectations are different from ours On some areas I will highlight one thing In neighbourhood The US-India cooperation is not that good I showed that in my book also in France Bangladesh or Myanmar Nepal or Sri Lanka Sri Lanka to an extent We have cooperated with the US But in many other countries We are not able to converge Let us have a joint approach Like I said in Japan and India It's an attack team But the US is not able to build it And some of the time Americans think that India Not able to push the chain So we have to go in and do it in a different way So it's a clash with ours Especially on important countries like Bangladesh We have been very unhappy with the US policy And approach to overthrowing To the overthrow of Shekhasina and the new order and all that So the US did The US has a lot of conspiracy theories There was a domestic Descent in Bangladesh against Shekhasina But Americans did encourage The opposition to try and Bring about change and they welcomed the change They were horrified by the change So if we talk about comprehensive Global strategic partners Why we are not able to coordinate In our own neighbourhood This is a big question And my thinking is One country can do a visualization But a big picture If I think Because India is a rising power And because we don't want To be a second fiddle to anybody We are not a junior partner To be a partner To be a second fiddle to anybody To be a second fiddle to anyone To be a second fiddle to anyone تو as khudni, all our assets commit to stop China. Belk ki, akchina ke pratibar ke liye na local regional shetri jo shakhtiye, unko badawa dheta jai ga. So India is the number one candidate for that purpose na. So I think we overall convergence rai ki. And there may be some, Dr. Jai Shankar at my book launch of friends. He said that some friends are more problematic than others. And the problematic friends, at the end of the day, they are still friends only. So sometimes, people run in India. Prampne pa chas pratishit, tarif lagadia. America is our biggest enemy. Is there a U.C.U.D. or these things, right? No, no, America is a very big issue. They have to keep India safe. I think these are all unfounded. What do you want to say? You will get a chance to win, and America will get a chance to win. So how can India be a big issue? You know, let us be strategic and let us think long term. US with alignment. Not alliance. Alignment. Jhukao jo kye te. Shadi wali bhaat mi kare jhi. Shadi nahi. Jhukao. Livin. Relation jo bhi hai. Vaat chalti rai ki. Vaat chalti rai ki. Vaat chalti rai ki. Vaat chalti rai ki. Vaat chalti rai ki. Interesting. And then what about the next one, Russia? So, we have balanced the game of Madhari, which we are playing, which we are playing against. This ball is also playing in the air, and both are not losing. Many people believe that Russia, the two views, one is that Russia is always with us. And, you know, the happiness is with us, so we cannot leave it. Let us just stick to Russia, at least in the water. On the other hand, US pressure is there. On the Ukraine war and also on buying oil and weapons from Russia and all these things. So, what we have tried to do is balance these two, you know, competing interests. And with Russia, we are not going to abandon them. First of all, we have cleared, we have told Americans, Europeans, Europeans were also expecting that we will lose Russia, because they attacked Ukraine. But based on our national interests and based on our own reading of international situation, Russia cannot be antagonized and side-lined fully, especially in this EU-Racia region and all that. So, we have to find a solution. We want to develop a diplomatic solution to all these conflicts. We never join any sanctions against Russia. In fact, we increased oil and weapons, not so much weapons, but oil purchases during the Ukraine war. And that sent a message that they go, you know, we value our friends. And we also have oil. We live in it, but oil is also a part of it. Because in the long run, now we have one-third of our defence supplies come from Russia. And they have also been willing to do more technology transfer and such things, which we do not need, especially in the defence field. So, when you saw some operations in Sindhur, as 400 anti-mysiles system, very successful in intercepting the Pakistani, Chinese backed Pakistani missiles and aircraft. So, Brahmos missile, we struck some of the major terrorist camps. Brahmos is also a joint Russian and Indian technology. So, in some areas, Russia is still a strength, although it is declining power. So, Russia, which was so important to us that it happened before, now it is not. Now, it has come, as I said, France is also a big defence player for us. The US is also an Israeli. But, as far as Russia is concerned, we will have to make good decisions with them. We can't just, you know, abandon. And that gives a bad signal. If we just, on the command of pressure of the US and say, overnight, let's go to Russia, bye-bye. So, people will go to the lab. So, our identity is also a question of our dependability. So, I think we will sustain the relationship with Russia. But, returns are less. Now, many people are still in India today, psychologically, they think. At the time of war, they think that even now, Russia is important. Even now, Russia is not a great power. So, expectations should also reduce. Where we are getting the lab, we should take it. But, it doesn't mean that Russia is going to solve all our problems. Some people, old timers, because of the nostalgia, Soviet Union, it was a great power, it was a big, you know, world power. They still have a very pro-Russian line, you know. Without understanding the ground realities of shifted, the power has also shifted away from them. So, I think we should take a realistic position on this. Kabikabar, Chanakini, the Aiket, Yana, Kabikabar, with one friend, if you have to step back in order to gain the friendship of somebody else who is more powerful. We should be willing to do it without any, you know, being sentimental. There is no need to be afraid, some people become emotional about Russia. But I think we should be realistic. We should continue the friendship, but it has limitations. And then our next friend, who is a friend. In Indian Ocean, there are French territories. They work together with us. And France, which is a union of the European Union, is a huge power. And also a free trade agreement. Everything we do with France and Germany is a double power of the European Union. Both of these together are very important to us. So, France, which is why we are here, because it seems to us that it is still the nature of the United States. But it seems to us that France is always thinking that we are lucky enough to be in the US. And we should make a European third power center, neither Chinese nor American. So, it seems to us that India is the kind of person who can deal with it. So, like EU and Europe, like a stamp, like a pillar, you can stand in a multipolar order. So, there are a lot of benefits. And I think France also wants their values to be based approach. It seems to us that China, they used to look up to China for trade and for selling their products and all that. But even the Germans, now they realize that China is the first one to make a competitive competitor. And then they will eat your lunch. Now, let's talk about China Shock 2.0 in Europe. We are Chinese products for every electric vehicles. Most of these cutting-edge fields, right? Before, they made joint venture with France and Germany. Now, they have seen all the technology of reverse engineering. Now, their models are cheaper than what the Europeans make. And Europeans are facing pressure in the home market. They don't have their models. They are Chinese. So, they are imposing tariffs now. And a trade war, EU and China is also going on. They are selling their products and electric vehicles. Now, they come to listen to them. So, Europeans, France, Summit, they have understood that China is the country that you don't like. And we should be wary of China. So, they are the best bet in their calculus. Because they need India. Because it is seen as more benign, less threatening. And, you know, democratic. So, these are the factors that you can see. So, France is an autonomy. European autonomy is to become a separate power center. The way Trump has run a trade war on them. So, Europeans think that we are diversified. In Latin America, Brazil is a big country. In Asia, India is a big country. Indonesia is a big country. In all of them, if we are doing business together, then that is how we can maintain our independence even from the US. So, these are the factors that we can trust in France. You know, out and out. And why can we trust this country? So, this is the same thing. Because they don't. Yes, the second thing is, let me tell you one more thing. British-Americans-Canadians. These are the countries. These are the countries that are in the country, in the world, in the world, in the world, in the world. These are the liberal media, in the government, in the machinery and all that. Human rights, minorities are facing. France is a culture of its own. The presidential system is. The power is concentrated more in the president. And the history of France, historically, in this way, they are not focusing on it. People are also more comfortable with France at that level. It's a pastime. But the typical western country type doesn't come and give you a morality lesson or try to act superior to you. It's a French approach to respect and partner. And their internal job is the end of the 8th democracy in India. They respect that rather than trying to find fault. They are becoming more afraid of freedom here. So I think we are more comfortable in France than not giving a lecture. You know? And it doesn't sit like my teacher who is standing in line with India. They are not like that. Nice. But can you trust them? Historically, have they been a trustworthy partner for others? Yeah, you know, critical moments in our history. 1998 when we did the new book. امریکن سمیت سبنے سنگشنز لگا دیعتہتے ویسٹن کنتریز نے ایویں جا پانھا فورسٹو دو it بھیکوز ایو از آلہ ایت the time فرانس اکلی ایک ویسٹن کنتری تیجنو کہا نہیں we will not join any sanctions against India کیا بھیکوز نیوکلیر پور بناہ ضروری تاؤن کل نشل سکیرٹی کلی ہے we understand the logic فرانس کا تبسے وستر ہمارا ارمارا ارمارا 25 موضن 25 years ago we saw at critical time when everyone said that boycott the India's India بہیش کر کرو اس کو you know اس نے non proliferation کی ساری جو نام سے اس کو توڑے ہیں فرانس کہتا I do not care I need India and I respect India and we will go with so as a very episodes and critical moments of the world history. باکستان ویلے time pv France didn't do anything. and they have been strong partners with us and counter-terrorism they are facing lot of terror threats on French soil اپنے ICs attacks وگرہ دیکھیں there is lot of intelligence sharing also with India on these friends. تو I think it is a good partner. It is a problem free compared to us just a little problematic. then next friend اپنے بل ازرائے لے India's Israel kye sa دوستے this is a lot of work together but what is a strategic benefit. the main one is counter-terrorism and national security. you know the Middle East and West Asia. Vaha and here South Asia's terrorist groups are very strong. اپنے دیکھا گا پاکستان میں یہ جو لشکری طائبہ جیشی محمد یہ جتنے ہادکور اینٹرنیشنی بند ترریز گروپس ہیں. این کا ہماس حزبال و این آذر گروپس کے سب کافی اینو اٹھنا بیٹھنا ہوتا ہے. Cooperation hai in mein transnational terrorist cooperation hai. so both of us feel like we are facing the same threat. but just a minute ago that Israel's method and tactic are different from ours. we counter-terrorism is not so overwhelming disproportionate force. we are a little calibrated and proportionate type of attacks counter-terrorism. yes surgical strike is a way. there is like overall bombardment total. but we cooperate lot of intelligence sharing and by the way this i show in my book that even during the time when we did not officially recognize Israel. because in the name of ki hacha bhai palestine jo heon ka in ke zaminin logo na chindli hai. and we have sympathy for palestines. i am talking about 1960 70 Thabbi, RAW, our foreign intelligence agency and the Mossad of Israel. had a so called secret collaboration on these shared threats. fence am joint missile bana te hai, barak can't be missile system and all these very successful with the Israeli companies. Israeli startups and Indian startups take inspiration from each other. there is a more effort to integrate the young people who are innovating on both sides. startup nation kethane israel ko. despite the wars, usmi wo kabili et hai. lot of amazing talent him up. young talent doing tech and digital stuff. agriculture as if we will be ha Maria. itne inone farming centers calling where they reach advanced irrigation methods and all these two Indian farmers. thousands of Indian farmers are benefiting from israeli know how and technology. they got the irrigation to a country. exactly. and last but not least. pakistan ka ki chavi israeli me bhaat kharab hai. and people think that a lot of pakistan allied terrorist groups are also direct threats to them. so you know the enemies enemies is the friend type of thing. you have your own israel or india's convergence. gaza war ke doran thodi si problem hogeti amek. we could not openly take israel side. uh because other side of Arab countries are gulf countries. so we have tried to you know and even with iran and israel there is always you know fighting and confrontation. and indona ki buddy competition in middle isme for dominance. isme bhaam sites ni le te hai. but firby israelis understand israelis don't insist ki achobai aap. amare saat hai to don't go with iran. ko american langwe ja hai. isle mein gane heki problematik friend. baaki sab they understand our compulsions and say ki chalo your fan we are fine with your choices. aap ne Mumbai humle jo deke dozaa rat me. israelis what targeted here right. oske baat jo kooperation badaa amara. especially after 2008. i mean much of it is classified and not known in the public. but you know our audience should note that isse zyada ma closer jo security cooperation hai. shydi kise aur desh ke saat hamara hai. and technology transfer bhi kar te hai. ye sab sharing bhi hai. aap israelis ko deke lije bharat aate bhi hai bhaat. as turist. and une lakta hai ki they need a counterbalance to the being in a hostile neighborhood. une lakta hai the first big gation country which is not hostile is India. une aana hai and dosi badaan hai. kaira vershil zarur israel. kai bhar lo kye te ki hajse zyada aina na hai hai militri karaywa hai wagara ki hai. we don't support some of their actions also. sometimes we also abstain or we vote against them in the UN and all that. but generally speaking, ek sahan ubuti hai ki we are brothers in arms. interesting. now here is the most interesting country. kise saat khuchhi saalum amara. kia hai. logaan ko logaan aana jana bhaat oke hai. bhaat saare migration ho hai. India se logaan jake reine lakta hai. and it's becoming friend of India in a way which nobody thought. recently onke top leader india me bhi hai with hai. UAE. UAE ke saat kias turist. by the way, i love UAE by the way. just amazing open country. i love UAE for one reason i'll tell you. i've been to so many countries. and apart from india, i think UAE is one of the rare countries who accept, like that country accepts you for who you are. they don't want you to change your, your country, your nationality, your way of behaving, your nothing. they just want to accept you the way you are. and they want to show you their culture and they want to make sure that you teach me yours. i'll teach you yours and then let's just build everything together. and that is across nationalities. not just for Indians. they do the same thing for British people. they do the same thing for Europeans. they do this thing for Africans, for Americans, for everybody. which i really find fascinating. how can you be so so accepting of the world. and internationally compliant with everything. and you take every citizen which is UAE nationalite and every tourist problem as your own. that's like remarkable. know the countries we need to do it. and show it again. consistently in their policies, be their behaviour, see their demeanor. i just love this fact about UAE. it's incredible to see that one country is doing it. it is remarkable. it's incredible to see small countries surrounded by much larger powers. so to have an open society and an open economy and an open approach to people of different backgrounds. it's very critical because their strategy is to be a hub for capital. Dubai is one of the big global centres of global capital. and to attract talent and know how and money from everywhere. تو ہمارے ساتھ یہ ہے, دیکھیں محمد بن زائد, the current UA leader, they realize that in the long run, their monarchy, our liberal, a kind of benign monarchy, the mindset of Jihad is threat and all these radical currents, they are dangerous for them. They used to side with Pakistan on most things, because they think fellow is Islamic country and all that, on Kashmir and all these issues, but they changed. The threat of terrorism and extremism is very high, and after the Arab Spring, in 2011, they became even more fearful of this radical current, just like in Egypt and all that. So, India is a moderate country, Indian Muslims are also moderate, not extremists, they welcome us, our migrant workers, they are very big, almost 3 million plus. So, for all those reasons, they moved closer to India, and the intelligence sharing, there are a lot of people who are very close to India, who are trying to make a deal in Dubai, and they are trying to make a deal with terrorist attacks in India, they have to stop all these, they are trying to make a deal, and they are afraid to send back. So, security cooperation is one reason. The UAE has a lot of support from their sovereign wealth funds, and they are looking for diversifying away from dependence only on the US. Historically, US alliance was kind of a partnership or alliance, and they used to look mainly to the US, but now they think that it is more diversified, multi-polar world, so they are looking for new centers of growth, and where they can get a very high return on investment. So, Abu Dhabi, you know, investment authority, MOBA, All these know for them India is the biggest opportunity. And I have made a trade agreement. So it is and with the help of the expatriate come Indian diaspora, who are already there for privacy, they are facilitating this two way exchange. So I think UAE with quadruple tripled or quadruple get trade hardly in three four years after the trade agreement was signed. So UAE is huge opportunities here. On the other hand, Saudi Arabia is also with our strategic partnership. But its more of a religious approach to foreign policy. That's why we are seeing they are so called the signed a defense agreement with Pakistan and all that Saudi Arabia. You know, but UAE is not doing that. And in a way, UAE also has a rivalry with Saudi Arabia that I will not be in the shadow of Saudi Arabia. Saudi is a much bigger country in size and resources and influence. So UAE says that ambition has to break out of the shadow of Saudi Arabia. And for that, it seems that India is more beneficial. So I would say these factors are crucial. Diaspora and the counterterrorism and extremism and the economic convergence. So I will tell you one thing. There will be a lot of happiness. I went to India UAE strategic dialogue. There are Arab local Arab investors. They study India, which country is this opportunity for investment? Okay. So there is a structure in Rajasthan. But in Gujarat, in Karnataka, I was shocked. These are young Arab entrepreneurs of the Emirates. Who are granularly studying India. For more market access and opportunity for investments. And they're very pragmatic, like we said, they're very liberal. And they believe in this India because India is also giving them a skilled workforce, which is not a trouble maker. Unlike some other, like I said, they prefer Indians over Pakistanis or Bangladeshis. You know, despite being an Islamic country. Trust both at the top level, we have cultivated. And I think UAE is the best. All the look-west policies we call them. Actist policy, Japan, Australia, etc. But look-west and Act-west also say something. They say there are a lot of phrases. In that policy, for India to be influential, UAE is the main bridge. Interesting. How do we convey these things to our friends? My last question to you would be, how do the world see us? Yes, many times, people ask me, what is your number one friend? Does India have the top three or the top five? I think for all these countries, which we have researched, we will figure out the top three in India. Maybe not number one for all. And just like India is becoming a big community. And just like India's military power projection is increasing. And now we are still in Indian Ocean power primarily. But our Navy and Air Force, if we make more suction with higher defense spending and capabilities over time. So even further away from our closed shores, we can be a security provider to many countries, net security provider. So when all of this will happen, India's atmosphere will increase. So you can safely be friends with India because India is not going to betray you. India is a loyal friend. It has many friends, but it is loyal to all of them. So in that sense, it will be difficult to run away. And it will not change overnight. It is not a whimsical or a fly by night operator. It is going to be staying there. So I think we are more dependable, more reliable and also more visible now. For all these reasons, I think India will continue to grow in importance. And I don't see any one of these countries suddenly backtracking saying that we are liabilities. India will continue to be an asset. It is like a strategy, foreign policy strategy. Let's see who is Uberta Sitara? The rising giant. Uberta Sitara is the highest, the highest, the highest, the highest, the best. One time, I mean, all these countries put a chain on the bed. The chain will grow and we will do an economic integration with the chain. And it will be win-win, their benefit, our benefit. But many of them have regrets for that. Saying that the chain is very big and aggressive. And in a way, it is like I said, eating our lunch. So now, they think we are in that sweet spot. In the next 15-20 years, India is the safest bed. And it will not boom rank on you. So I think as a result of it, we will be in the good books of all these countries. We have to maintain, when will this crisis come? It will not be always smooth. But the baseline is strong. So I think we will sustain these friendships. And that's the path I have argued that in Midrata, it is a path to becoming a Shaktishali. Without friendships. For some people, to become a great power, you have to become a high economic growth. And you have to prepare a lot of money. And you have to become a great power, you have to become a master. These are the two factors. But with it, diplomacy is also important. And diplomacy is the third, the softer element. In which Midrata is the core of it. You know, partnerships. So we will make it and I think then we will be unstoppable. Interesting. Well, thank you so much for a lot of things. I am genuinely honored that you came here. And I will share so many things with you. Friends, I have understood the end to end. Thank you for doing this. Thank you Raj, you are the future of India. You are doing so much to educate the masses and bringing serious content in a way they can understand. I think you are path-breaking and I wish you all the success. As you keep building the opinion and shaping, you know, the national narrative and also informing the international community about India's rise. Thank you so much. Hello. So nice to see you. Pleasure seeing you, sir. Pleasure. A legend of young India. No, no, no. We are trying to do something. No, I am so proud of the fact because this is the future of the country, you know. Yes, we are. You will take us to Vixen Bharat. I would love to play a small role in it. That's how I would put it. Thank you so much for watching the episode till the end. Now you have to do three things. First of all, subscribe to this channel. Because as much as you subscribe, you will get the best and valuable guests for you. Number two, tell me in the comments what is good and what is wrong in this episode. So that we can repeat mistakes. And what are the guests that you want to see on our podcast. So that we can take them and give you more value. And number three, share this episode with one person. Because one conversation can change someone's life. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.