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Speaker 2When Sara and I first arrived in Damascus, there were celebrations. It was just after the fall of the regime in December of 2024. But away from the crowds, another story was unfolding. We're seeing reports of Syrian soldiers fleeing the country and going to Iraq. Because they feared repercussions. The country's now former leader, Bashar al-Assad, believed to have escaped to Russia. The men behind some of the worst crimes of the city. The Syrian war. Were running for their lives.
Speaker 3We're also starting to see more checkpoints popping up now, where people are searching cars.
Speaker 4The mission is to find remnants of the Assad regime.
Speaker 2One of the men to go into hiding was Bassam al-Hassan. The man President Assad trusted with Austin Tice's imprisonment. And when Bassam vanished, the answers he may hold about what happened to Austin went with him. There's a lot of tension, isn't there?
Speaker 5And people are really frustrated.
Speaker 6And looking at the signs, they're sort of protesting the new order, the new government.
Speaker 2Several months after the fall of the regime, Sara and I find ourselves in a very different crowd. This one isn't celebrating. Around us, men thrust placards above their heads. Screaming as rage contorts their faces.
Speaker 7This place was Assad's stronghold. And a lot of the people here, many of the people here are Alawite, which is the same sect of Islam that the Assads come from.
Speaker 2We've come to the Syrian coastal city of Latakia. The area is the Alawite heartland and a place heavily populated with Assad loyalists. Former regime figures fled here. So we want to see if we can locate Bassam al-Hassan. Alawites say they're being targeted in revenge for the regime's crimes. And that the new government is failing to protect them.
Speaker 5There have been killings, there have been abductions. Some of them have been completely arbitrary. This community had a lot of protests. And the government had a lot of clout with the security branches. So people are feeling like it's a completely new era.
Speaker 6An era where they have less power, less say, and are more isolated than they've been in decades.
Speaker 2Absolutely. A little further down the coast, we've arranged to meet someone who worked closely with Bassam. His name is Fadi Saka.
Speaker 5We're here. Mahalo.
Speaker 8Do you follow? Hello. Sarah Abedat. Sarah Abedat. Josh Baker.
Speaker 2Fadi was a senior figure in the NDF militia. Those forces didn't just hold Austin. They're linked to atrocities and one of the most notorious mass killings of the civil war. Fadi has been sanctioned by the US government. But he isn't facing trial. Right now, we're told the new government sees him as useful. Someone who might help contain unrest inside the Alawite community. Fadi is now rebranding himself as someone who works on community engagement. And he's doing it from a run-down beach resort. Oh, look. Watch for a swimming pool. We walk past dusty water slides and empty swimming pools that sit against the backdrop of the deep blue waters of the Mediterranean. And we're told that the water is not clean. In a chalet where paint peels from walls, we meet Fadi. He's broad-shouldered with a thick, dark, carefully trimmed beard. His eyes have this vacant intensity, the look of a man who's used to being in charge. He insists I smoke shisha and tells me I can't record his voice. How's your shisha tasting? Over several lung-destroying hours. Fadi tells us he had nothing to do with Austin's abduction. And as far as we can tell, that's true. He also says he doesn't know where Austin is now. Then he gets frustrated. Austin was held by the NDF militia, whose ranks were largely Alawite. And Fadi says every accusation against the NDF risks falling on the wider Alawite community. At a time of protests, revenge killings and fear.
Speaker 5He says, I understand the mother's feelings. If your son has a fever, you would be upset about it. So I can't imagine what would happen if he went missing. But at this point, it's becoming obnoxious. Like this file is becoming obnoxious.
Speaker 2Austin's case isn't just about one missing man anymore. It brings attention to one of Syria's biggest issues - the missing. More than 100,000 people disappeared under the regime. And their families want answers. So for men like Fadi, every question about Austin drags the past back into view. And with it, the men responsible for some of the worst crimes of the war. People like Bassam al-Hassan. Fadi says that Bassam is one of the few people who can give us answers about what happened to Austin, but that he doesn't know where he is. So we move on. Finding Bassam is not just about answering our questions on Austin. It's about locating a man responsible for extraordinary suffering in Syria. So that's what we're going to do. I'm Josh Baker, and from BBC Radio 4 and NPR's Embedded, this is Where is Austin Tice? Series 3 of I'm Not a Monster Presents. Episode 8: Those Who Know. Sarah and I drive more than a thousand miles around Syria, chasing leads about Austin and trying to find Bassam. Then, further along the Alawite coast, we reach Bassam's assistant and driver of more than 30 cars. He's been in the area for more than 30 years.
Speaker 6Hello. Nice to meet you. He's keeping a low profile
Speaker 2and asks us not to use his name. He says he fears for his safety from both members of the old regime and the new government. I ask about Bassam. I've been in the area for almost a day. Almost a day.
Speaker 5President Assad and Bassam used to speak every day. Bassam was like one of the president's limbs. There was ultimate trust. He had a lot of power. He was also the head of coordination between the Iranians and the president's office. Iran used to fund the national defense forces. He was somebody who was very disciplined. He was a little bit detached and cold.
Speaker 2I'm told Bassam is calm until his cruel temper emerges. That he's fiercely loyal to Assad, but apparently indifferent to almost everyone else. He even arrived three days late for his own mother's funeral, his assistant tells me. I'm curious about what he has to say about Austin. When was the last time you were aware that Austin Tice was in the compound that you worked in? Three, four. Three days.
Speaker 5He stayed in Bassam Al-Hassan's office for three to four days. And then three jeeps came and picked him up.
Speaker 2I know this isn't true. He was still in the compound certainly in December of 2012.
Speaker 5Under the supervision of Bassam Al-Hassan. At least until December of 2012. He stayed in the compound for three days. And then where did he go? Okay, we're playing a game of semantics here. Where he's saying he left Austin. office. It doesn't mean he left Bassam's supervision. Because they caught
Speaker 9him in a line.
Speaker 5And he said if it's about his supervision, he could have been supervised under Bassam until 2016.
Speaker 2The assistants claim that Austin was only held in Bassam's compound for a few days isn't true. We know this because we've tracked down Austin's interrogator, spoken to his doctor and other members of the NDF militia who saw him. It seems pretty clear that Austin was with Bassam until early 2013. That's when his trail goes cold. So I don't know why the assistant is giving us this story. Then he claims Austin was handed to Hezbollah, the Lebanese political party and armed group that's closely linked to Iran.
Speaker 9So you honestly think that Austin, was taken into Lebanon?
Speaker 8Yes. Why would Hezbollah want that kind of risk? Hezbollah
Speaker 5knows what it means to take a Westerner. Westerners care about their people. They negotiate. He said, I have a feeling that Austin Tice is still alive.
Speaker 2So now he's saying Austin was moved out of Syria, so that Hezbollah, could use him as a bargaining chip with the Americans. But Hezbollah never did that. And then he mentions Austin might be in Iran. And he seems really keen that we look into this. I set that to one side for a moment, because I want to see if he can help us find Bassam. When was the last time that you saw Bassam al-Hassan? The last time I saw Bassam
Speaker 5al-Hassan was the eve of the fall of the regime. I woke him up. And I told him, the regime fell. And he was like, you're crazy. I said, no, wake up and leave, because they're going to come, and they're probably going to kill you. And he said to me, just put the heating on. And I said, what heating? You need to run. We went out to try and get him into a car. A lot of the men had stolen the cars and fled. There was a Range Rover. And there was a Honda Accord. So he got into the Honda Accord, and he got the Range Rover for his wife and daughter. On the way to the coast, his wife and daughter got stopped in their Range Rover by the rebels. They took the money. They took the gold. They told them, this all belongs to the state now. It's not yours. And then they went to Tartus and stayed there for about two weeks. He asked me to get him some cars so that they can get out of the country. I didn't. But he needed to get out.
Speaker 2So it sounds like Bassem is no longer in the country. And that's why nobody has been able to tell us exactly where he is. After several hours of talking, it's getting dark. And this isn't a safe area. We should leave. Come on. Shukra. Welcome.
Speaker 8Thank
Speaker 2you for your time. As we leave town along a road that cuts its way through farmland, the headlights of passing cars illuminate olive trees momentarily before they're consumed by the darkness again. Behind me, I can hear Sara's phone buzzing.
Speaker 5Okay, so I just got this text message from the guy we just interviewed. Right. I screenshotted the moment I saw it because I was like, "This is not for me." And he's going to delete it. And he did. I'm trying to figure out what it says. It's basically, he's saying, "Salamu alaikum, Mr.
Speaker 6Abu Aus." Who's Abu Aus?
Speaker 5I have no idea. Those journalists came and saw me. They came without an appointment.
Speaker 6Well, that's not true.
Speaker 5Yeah. I didn't give them much. Just very basic things. Yeah. No. And they said they want to come back. So, if you want to make the appropriate arrangements, sorry to bother you. That's what he says.
Speaker 8If you want to make the appropriate arrangements?
Speaker 5Yeah. I mean, it doesn't make me feel good.
Speaker 2I feel like there's kind of two ways that you can interpret that. There's either if you want to tell me what to
Speaker 6tell them is the best case. Yeah. And the worst case, and I'm not trying to be dramatic, is, like, I don't know, if you want to detain them. Either way, he's a shady dude that we can't really trust.
Speaker 5Yeah. And it makes me really uneasy.
Speaker 2We just need to assume everything he's just told us is a pre-arranged, pre-orchestrated story.
Speaker 5If that's the case, then who is directing him? Who is telling him what to say and what not to say?
Speaker 2This story, this investigation gets messier and messier. And also more dangerous. Yeah. I mean, it makes me really, really worried. It makes me really, really worried. Someone is using Bassam's assistant to try to steer us away from the truth about Austin. And the more I think about it, the more it fits a pattern. Throughout the years we've been looking into this, people connected to Austin's case have disappeared, died in suspicious circumstances, or refused to speak to us. Sometimes saying they've been told not to, but never clarifying by who. And we're still no closer to Bassam. Then one evening, in a bar, a source who works on hostage cases tells us Bassam fled to Iran. But as we keep talking, he lets something else slip. Bassam has moved again. This time to Lebanon. So Sarah and I go looking for him. This mansion literally overlooks the whole of Beirut. I'm really glad to meet you. Nice to meet you too. We've come to meet a Syrian businessman with strong links to the old regime. He's asked us not to use his name because the information he gave us and the information he has to share with us is sensitive. And he fears he might face repercussions.
Speaker 8And you've got a swimming pool? Yeah, under the swimming pool. Three floors. Oh wow, okay. You've got a three-floor apartment beneath the swimming pool? Yeah. That almost makes you like a James Bond villain.
Speaker 2Maybe. Inside his mansion, there's a life-size statue of a leopard, gold ashtrays, and a ready supply of cigars. We're here because he knows a lot about Bassam al-Hassan and his arrival to Lebanon. How did Bassam al-Hassan end up hiding in Lebanon?
Speaker 5There was an agreement between the Iranians, the Lebanese, and the U.S. for Bassam al-Hassan to come to Lebanon.
Speaker 2Why is he allowed to be here?
Speaker 8Bassam al-Hassan, Bassam al-Hassan
Speaker 5was responsible for the most elite and important research center in Syria. The chemical weapons file is part of that. The rockets that the Syrian regime were developing with Iran is part of that. So, at the end of the day, the assurances given to him aren't just because of information he has regarding Austin. It's because of other things.
Speaker 2So, this man is being protected because of his intelligence value to the United States and others. Is that correct?
Speaker 9You're smiling. He
Speaker 5might not go to jail or there might not be any immediate accountability, but he might be held accountable later. He could mysteriously die because he slipped and there was a bomb. A banana peel on the floor.
Speaker 2But for this moment, he's being protected. Yes. So, according to the businessman, a secret negotiation took place to bring Bassam to Lebanon because of what he knows about the regime's activities. Then the businessman mentioned someone else who helped orchestrate this plan. George Shawy is one of the members.
Speaker 5A businessman by the name of George Shawy. He spoke to Bassam al-Hassan.
Speaker 2George Shawy is a name we know. We'd interviewed him. He was the one who told us told us that he was offered Austin's rucksack by the driver who abducted Austin. So we speak to George, and while he won't get into the specifics of his role in bringing Bassam to Beirut, he does admit that he drove Bassam to meet the American authorities once he'd arrived. What was it like driving him to that interview? Was he nervous?
Speaker 10No. The switch of somebody that's really a top dog, powerful, everybody just wanting to meet him, and suddenly you see somebody that's, it's like, wow, how things can change. And you can tell he was probably more broken as a human being from being somebody that's really important to, basically, we're not nobodies, but just normal. And this is not easy.
Speaker 2George offers little else, but speaking to him confirms Bassam came to Beirut to meet U.S. and Lebanese authorities. As I sit at my desk trying to work out what to do next, my phone buzzes. It's Deborah Tice. She says the FBI have called her because they've interviewed Bassam in Beirut. So she's. She's coming here. We meet for coffee and head to my apartment. Why did you come to Beirut?
Speaker 3I want to talk with him.
Speaker 2What do you want to ask him? What do you want to talk to him about?
Speaker 3So I really just want to know what the relationship was. What was my son like when he was in prison? I mean, was he the leader that he is with other prisoners? Was he alone? You know, I just want to know. I want to know whatever Bassam Hassan knows about my son. Because I've missed him terribly. I want some stories. I want some recent stories. And I don't want to interrogate him. I don't want to berate him. I don't want to scold him. That's not my job. I want to know about my son. I know that my son is. I know that my son is somewhere alive.
Speaker 2How do you keep that faith and that belief going?
Speaker 9That your son's alive?
Speaker 3I don't know. I mean. I just. I'm very close to Austin. And. I feel like I would know. And I don't think God would just keep dragging me through this. I think that God would give me a hint. And I would know.
Speaker 2For the next few days, I watch her try every route she can think of to reach Bassam. Her embassy, the FBI, Lebanese intelligence. And no one says she can't meet Bassam. But no one helps make it happen either. It's like Bassam is close enough to reach, but still just beyond Deborah's grasp. After a week of this bureaucratic dance, we meet again. I mean, obviously, I've spent a lot of time with you over these. these last few weeks. These last few days. And I. It's been very hard to see at times how much I can see you hurting.
Speaker 3It's kind of like. just wanting to know about your child. thing. You want a report card, right? Like, here is someone. that can tell me how my son. was doing. in that situation. You know, I. I just. I can't see how. how there could be. there couldn't be any harm or danger in that. on either side. And I. It looks like I'm going to fly out. without getting that meeting. And that is the only ask. That is my only ask that I've had.
Speaker 2I watch Deborah disappear into Beirut's thick, unforgiving traffic as she heads to the airport. In all the years we've been talking, I don't think I've ever seen her look this defeated. Once again, her search for answers about her son, who she hasn't held since 2012, remains unresolved. We don't stop looking for Bassam. We search apartment buildings, sit with sources, drink enough coffee to kill a small horse. Eventually, we get a lead. A photograph of Bassam on a balcony. He's under surveillance. He looks thin, frail and weak. Not like the person I'm talking about. Not like the powerful man I'd imagined. We identify the building. It's an expensive new-build apartment where rent is over $2,000 a month. That's not cheap in Lebanon. But before we can get there, he apparently leaves town. Still, one of his former acquaintances gives us his phone number. So we call it.
Speaker 8Hello? Hello? Hello? Mr. Bassam, how are you?
Speaker 2Hello. My name is Josh. I was wondering if I could speak to you. I've been trying to get in contact with you for some time.
Speaker 5He's apologized and said that he's unable to speak to us because he has already spoken to the American authorities and has made an agreement with them that he will not be speaking to anybody. He's saying that we would have to take permission from the authorities.
Speaker 2If you could tell me who in the U.S. authorities we need to speak to.
Speaker 5The members of the FBI and the CIA at the embassy.
Speaker 2Okay. I was with Deborah Tice and she obviously is very keen to meet. If the authorities give permission, will you meet with Deborah Tice? I don't have a problem. As long as.
Speaker 5As long as the authorities inform him that it's fine. I hope that Miss Deborah is in good health.
Speaker 2Can I ask, is Austin alive?
Speaker 5He's saying he's sorry, but he can't give any statement like this. He doesn't want to be asked these questions until the relevant authorities give him permission to speak.
Speaker 2Shukran, Mr. Bassam. Shukran. Shukran. There was a moment just where a young kid began speaking in the background. So he's with his family, I think.
Speaker 5Okay. Okay. I mean, he doesn't want to give us any answers and he wants to be told by someone in the U.S. to meet with Deborah. So it sounds like he's been instructed pretty strictly that he didn't speak to anybody.
Speaker 2At the end of the day, this guy is like a war criminal, basically, in the eyes of many. And somehow he's not in prison. He's answering his phone. His family are in the background. And when we asked if Austin was alive, he didn't claim to not have that knowledge. Yeah. He didn't say, I don't know anything or I don't know anything about this. So the man who oversaw Austin's detention isn't in hiding. He's a free man living in Lebanon. We want to understand how that's possible. So we start speaking to people. Some of them are at risk, so we can't identify them. First, officials in two parts of Syria's new government tell us that they want Bassam returned to stand trial. But they say the Americans want him kept in Lebanon. And there's little they can do about that. Then, people with knowledge of Bassam's situation tell us he's receiving money from the Americans through an intermediary. And then we see something Sara and I never expected. A source shows us a detailed record of a meeting involving Bassam, the FBI, CIA and Lebanese security. It shows he's been offered residency and he's been given a job. And he's been given a job. This is a deeply uncomfortable reality because Bassam isn't just the man who oversaw Austin's detention. He managed the chemical weapons program for a regime that used them against civilians. He's under US sanctions and wanted for crimes against humanity. Yet he isn't facing trial. He's living in Lebanon with the help of Lebanese and American authorities. He's been arrested for a year. It's sort of a farm in the middle of the city, isn't it? Yeah. Mahaba. Kif halak? Alhamdulillah. Danny Maki? Shukran. We arranged to meet Ramez's contact, named Danny Maki, at a horse stable. His choice, not mine. We sat down and over thick black Turkish coffee, he told me he'd been in touch with Ramez.
Speaker 11He was basically telling me that he'd been detained for about a week and that the only reason he'd got let out was because he'd gone on, like, a hunger strike. He's saying he has some important information about Austin that he wants to release, but he's saying that he can't do it while he's in Damascus. And he was basically saying, look, he's just now looking for a way to get out to Lebanon.
Speaker 2Ramez was apparently detained by armed men and claimed to Danny that he was tortured and then told not to talk about Austin's case. I'd asked Danny to see if we could meet Ramez,
Speaker 11and he said no. I think he doesn't have an issue in terms of just meeting, but he doesn't want anything on the record for now. But he wants to literally leave Syria to bring a lot of the people who are involved in this stuff to account.
Speaker 2For more than a year, we try everything we can to reach Ramez. Calls, messages, finding people who know him. And then, it looks like he's going to meet us. So we wait.
Speaker 9I don't know. I don't know if he's going to do it. Fifteen months of work, and he's playing games.
Speaker 5Honestly, I wasn't even going to believe that we're doing this until he actually sits in the chair and completes the thing. I don't doubt that he feels like he's in danger, and I think to a certain extent, he is.
Speaker 2I love that you're peering at the elevators. Yeah, because what the hell is taking them so long?
Speaker 8Oh, here he is. Hello. Nice to see you. How are you? Do you want coffee, or.?
Speaker 9I'm going to turn the AC off, and then we need to turn this microphone on.
Speaker 5I have decided I'm going to speak, and I'm not going to let the facts get diluted, and I will talk to you later. I will talk to the BBC, because I will not let them do this. The issue is, where is Austin Tice?
Speaker 2Ramez tells us he's under pressure to push a false story about what happened to Austin, because some people don't want the truth to come out. But he says he's going to give us the real story. This could be the closest we've come to understanding the truth. So let's begin. We asked the FBI, CIA, and Lebanese General Security to comment on our findings. Only the FBI responded, declining to comment, and instead directing us to a statement that they've previously put out, which says they remain committed to establishing the facts around Austin's case and security. Securing his return. You've been listening to Where is Austin Tice? Please share, rate, and review the show. It really does help. If you have any information on Austin Tice, you can email me directly on josh at bbc.co.uk or message me at josh at bbc.co.uk or send me on social media at joshbakerstory. The series is written and showrun by me, Josh Baker. The investigative producer is Sara Obidat. The series producer is Simon Maben. Field producing by Uday Al-Hussein. Additional producing by Lucy Burns. Open source intelligence by Thomas Bordeaux and Gabor Friesen. Our production coordinator is Gemma Ashman. The series editor is Claire Fowler. The head of BBC News Long Form Audio is Emma Rippon. And at BBC Radio 4, the commissioning editor is Dan Clark. At NPR, our producer is Monica F. Starchiver. Editors are Robert Little and Katie Simon. And the executive producer for Embedded is Irene Noguchi. The composer is Firas Aboufaker. Additional music by Kareem Shahouri. Theme music by Kareem Shahouri. Theme music by Sam Slater. And it was mixed by Tom Brignall.
Speaker 12In summer 2005, I blagged my way into a job editing a new British gangster film. And I'd unknowingly been employed by two of London's most notorious gang leaders. You cross us, you get sorted out. We're serious people. I was stepping into a world where the lines between fact and fiction barely existed. Because the film they'd written was the story of their lives. And they were using it to change their future. But would it be possible to really leave criminality behind them? It was all good a week ago. I'm Lewis Albro. From BBC Radio 4 and Shadow World, this is Breaking the Cycle. Subscribe to Shadow World, Breaking the Cycle, on BBC Sounds.
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