Child Stars with Mara Wilson

Hi, David. Hi, Roosevelt. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I think I've got my podcast voice on. How do you? I didn't even notice. I was too distracted because I'm in a weird place. Emotionally or geographically? I'm inside the offices at Tipupper, but I'm you know, everyone's being really quiet, so I'm trying to speak quietly too. For our international listeners that may not know what to paper is, what is it? It is our national museum. And I'm down here launching a different podcast to Flightless Bird tonight, so I'm just working at one of the desks. I know, you could say it's a betrayal, but I'm not, I'm not actually featured in the podcast. It's different. Oh, that's okay then. That's okay. We won't soon just yet. Just yet. Now, today's question, I'll keep it brief because you've got work to do, but we are talking about being a child star with Mara Wilson, she's on the show. Okay. And I'm just wondering if you watched her and anything when you were a kid, like, I think it was Mrs. Doubtfire, Miracle on 34th Street, and of course, Matilda. Ah, I've seen all of those songs. I love her. Yeah, she's pretty great. Do you have, like, any sort of, do you remember we watched them or what you were doing or any sort of emotions around them? I was just such a big Robin Williams fan when I was a kid. I couldn't tell you when I first watched Mrs. Doubtfire, but I watched it so many times. I loved about movie. Probably loved it more than the other two films, which I have a different connection to. Well, they didn't have Robin Williams in them, so that would line up. That's true. Someone did accuse me of being quite, um, trunchable, like, the other day. So maybe I do have a connection to it. What was the context of that? Okay. I'd rather not get into it. Look, do you think you were being mistrunchable-esque or do you think that was a mischaracterization at the time? Oh, look, I think that's a private conversation that you and I can have and you can make a decision. I'm David Farrier in New Zealand accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, last week was our Nickelodeon episode where Rob took me through a 50-something page slideshow demonstrating his love and affection for all things Nickelodeon. It was a celebratory episode about childhood, about a time when children had the attention span to get through an entire episode of Rugrats and I Carly. But of course, as we briefly alluded to, there is also a darker side to childhood TV. Or at least a side that isn't as sparkly and whimsical as the shows themselves. So with this episode, we thought we'd talk to someone who grew up as a child star, someone who knows this world better than we do. Mara Wilson is an actor, podcast and author who rose to fame pretty early when she was a kid. Starring in films, like I said to Roosevelt, Mrs. Doubtfire, Miracle on 34th Street, and of course, the titular character Matilda in Matilda. She's had a lot of time to reflect on those years and has a lot of complex and nuanced thoughts on that time as well. So prepare for a dose of nostalgia mixed in with a lot of, is it a good idea for kids to become famous so early and how should I feel about that? Because this is the child star's episode. Now while that theme song was playing and I was listening to Roosevelt Rob, you were rearranging a number of things around. I was just adjusting some volume. You just some volumes, you moved some props around. And you were upset that I placed my water on the table without a coaster. And there's one thing I've noticed about you. It's flasing something without a coaster really roused you up. And I wanted to just briefly talk about that. Yeah, I wouldn't go as far as to say really upset. You get a certain sort of, I can see you stiffen up a little bit in your posture. Respect wood. What's the main? You get the ring on a table, don't you? Yeah, we're into table. This is a business. We use this on other shows. Yeah, and you don't want. I did this thing where you look at your table. There's three coasters sitting around and somehow you still manage to not get it on a coaster. I am. I do like having a lot of different vessels of liquid around as well. Sure, that's why you have three. That's why I've three. But I find them, I find it much better to just put it directly on the wood, something about that. Something about ruining the wood that you're putting it on, ruining your, your beautiful set. You use coasters at home. I actually recently only use marble countertops. Only marble in my house. I live in like sort of a porn star style, only black marble for me. No, I actually bought some coasters for the first time, probably six months ago. Good for you. And I'm trying to use them. Yeah. But I got to say, I've lived in this place for three years now. There's a few wooden surfaces in there. I'm not noticing like a lot of rings. I think the rings from not putting things on coasters is maybe a myth. No, I mean, I've definitely got rings on things from people. Have you? Yeah, there's rings on this. You want me to lift this up and show you? Who did that? Who was who? I don't know. Probably Natalie. It's probably Natalie. I believe you. Yeah, there are rings. You know, there are rings. And that's from someone not using a coaster. I'll let my lesson. I think though what it probably is at home, I put this coffee on a coaster. I mean, that doesn't need a coaster because it's not cold or wet and it's not going to also this coffee cup can go on. If it's like a room temperature now, then yeah. But what it what it probably is, is you're not drinking like super cold stuff at home. No, it's true. That's going to have condensation. I see. And get because that's what happens is the condensation drips and then you got a pool. Yeah, underneath around. And that's where the problem comes in. And because I've removed this water from your fridge, it's very cold. I like cold water. Yeah, you have your fridge at a very cold temp in here. So there is condensation. I'm noticing that now. Yes. So that's why instead of putting on a wood table, putting it in the same place, I got like 40 coasters in here. There's so many. How's your week been? We've had a lot of, there's been a big two days of rain in Los Angeles. Yep. My roof leaked a little bit, which is quite annoying. You sent me a photo of a tree that had fallen across the road. Yeah, that was the like main road our house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it had just fallen because people were like starting to wander out. And it was on a car. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, smashed a car. That's the second car I've seen smashed this year. It is that thing where Los Angeles trees don't seem to be able to cope with wind, like they're not deeply rooted. They just seem to sort of blow over at a whim. The trees in New Zealand, deeply rooted, very strong, can put up with a lot of wind in LA. We are get down. Also in Chicago was kind of like that when there's really bad windy rainstorms. Yeah, a lot of times, the trees come down. Giant branches. I've never seen in Chicago like both of the trees in LA that fell over were like from the roots. It's comical. LA, it's not comical. It's dangerous, but it's like it's you look at it and you're like, how is this possible? Yeah, but this is weird to me. Yeah. Whereas like Chicago, the bad storms would come in just whole branches would come off and smash cars. I see. So less, yes, my big news is the week before we got onto child stars. I went ahead of follow up with my gum person. I got these gum graphs to see if the gum would take. Yes, the gum took. So we said, you said, these are great gums. She said, all your gums now, 10 out of 10, great gums. But she said, I think you should go down the hall and see the orthodontist because I think your teeth have got some problems in the way they're growing because when you get over the age of 40, your teeth can start to crowd each other out. Now, I've noticed, I've got a gap. I've talked about this a bit before. I've got a gap in my teeth that's formed and that's because my lower teeth are pushing my two front teeth out a little bit. So I've got this gap. So anyway, kind of long story short, went to the orthodontist. Getting braces. I'm getting braces. No, see, so I had braces when I was 15 horrific. I imagine a lot of people with this sort of had braces and same braces. Yeah, they're retching it around that age too is like very rough to have braces. I had pimples, glasses, braces, all at the same time, all delivered, threesome, horrible. They wanted me to get braces again when I was like 17 or 18 and I was just like absolutely just to like correct things a little bit. Yeah. Well, this is where we get to now because essentially teeth were great when I was a kid, but apparently you go through like more growth in your 20s and your 30s. Point being, I think I'm going to get in visoline because the way my teeth are connecting fast forward 20, 30 years, it's going to be a problem. And so I think in visolines happening, and the reason I'm bringing this up, I noticed that it's about, it's like $6,000. I was trying to get them as a sponsor for long. Yeah, I'm thinking I figured it. Who is in Vizelight? and they're in America, they're in American company. - They sponsor a lot of podcasts. - Do they? - Yeah. - Okay, and visit line, if anyone's listening, I don't particularly want to pay $6,000 for this thing. It's not a vanity project. It's purely my teeth are like whacking in weird directions. - Yeah, yeah. - Do you want it like a side plot to this? - Oh, sure. - I have an unsymmetrical face. So one side of my face is longer than another. So I'm a bit wonky. - Is that why you like cock your head on it? - I'm always turning, I see cameras. I'm always sort of angling a bit away because if you see me straight on, you'll be horrified, wonky. So what's happening is my teeth are connecting on one side more than the other because it's wonky. - Just like the gravity of your body. - My gravity of my body just like sucking my jaw down. No, but the horrific thing is she said, if you wanted to, if you were gonna do this and get a perfect leg bite, we'd need to go to a surgeon, break your jaw, reset it, and then do the orthodontic treatment. - I said, absolute fucking, no, you're not breaking my jaw. I do not, like, come on, I will invest a bit in my mouth so that I'm not like grinding my teeth. You're not breaking my fucking jaw. - That's an insane, what do I shock? - I think to suggest, a doctor to suggest. - Yes, no, and it was, I was legitimately shocked. I Googled them their legit, they're the real deal. It's just something I hadn't even thought of, but because my bite is different on one side to the other, I was just shocked. It's not often I've been sitting in like a medical establishment and being shocked by what someone suggested to me. - I didn't realize that there's growth and changing happening after, like, I thought once your adult teeth come in, like, that's it. - You know, I thought the same thing. Apparently men, and I think this probably explains a few things, you know how like old men have like massive ears and like massive noses? - Yeah. - They keep growing, and woman apparently like hits puberty, but basically you stop then if you're a woman. Men, we keep growing in like really weird, like, unseemly ways, and so my face has like changed more on like one side than the other, which is why I've got this uneven bite. - Well, this is a good segue, 'cause I'm curious where this is going. You said after your 40s, it starts happening. How old are you? - Okay, I know, I know what you're going with this. - Yeah, no, there was a big problem, and I'm a bit annoyed that no, in fact, check this, including my own brain. So I looked when Nickelodeon was, was, day boot. - It's 1779, is what you said, yeah. - And so my brain went, 1979. That was three years away from when I was born. - You went the wrong direction. - I went the wrong direction, so I stated very confidently that I was three. - Which means you would have been born in 1976. - 1776, making me pushing 50, right? And so I was nice, a lot of people wrote in, saying, my God, David, you're so young, you're so youthful, this is crazy, you're not pushing 50. And correct, I'm not, I'm 43. But pretty, a pretty dumb thing to sort of forget when you were born. - Yeah, but I see what you're doing. - You see what I do? - I see what you're doing. - I went backwards instead of forwards. - Yeah, it's confusing now that we're in 2026, like we used to have, you didn't have to go over. - I know, I completely-- - 2000? - Yeah, I know. - So now it's like 26 on top of 12 for me, or 18 for you. - Yeah, it fucked you up, right? - Yeah, but it was, I stated it so confidently. And then I was like, I always assume in all these episodes, I'll be getting quite a few things wrong, but not my own age and not in the first five seconds of the show. - I will say Calvin asks us how old we were, the other day, and both now and I got a wrong. - That's really good. - While he tried saying we were a year younger than we were, and we were like, no, that's not right, we're this age. - So who got it right, him or you, or you, we both wrong? - He had it right. - Well, how old are you? - I don't know, I'm 30. - 30? - Seven or eight? - 30. - I'm 13. - Oh, you know it, it's, yeah, no, let's get this right. - It's hard. - Yeah, well, 'cause, yeah, the 20s, the 20s, 20s. - 25 was my last birthday. - Okay. - So that means I'm 37, I'm turning 38 this year. - That's good news. - I thought I was 38. - It don't now, you know. - It also feels weird, I don't, I didn't think I was turning 39 this year, but Calvin had it right. - He's a smart kid. - Yeah. - I love you arguing with your kid about how old you are. It's really good. It's really, really good. - Speaking of age, child stars. - Child stars. - How's that for a segue? - Well, let's, before we get into that, just a little bit of housekeeping. - Yes, what are we up? - We do have live podcasts coming up that you can still get tickets for. - 29th of March, Salt Lake City. - At the Depot. - Great venue. - April 2nd, and one of my favorite cities, Austin, Texas, and E-Mos, which I've seen lots of music shows there, and I'm excited to put on a show there. - I love these venues. - In the April 4th, in Dallas, at the Texas Theater. - Very appropriate name, seeing as we are in Texas. - Those are on sale now. We'll put links in the description of this episode, wherever you're listening. - I am excited to get excited by these, because I'm excited to hear back from guests that I'm trying to book and find. And it's the most fun part, because you're just hearing from all these different people, and we're gonna have, we're gonna have some good shows lined up. And it's a nice place where we can get a little weirder than we normally would. - Yeah, what is that? - Well, it's 'cause we can't normally fill a full topic with something super bizarre like that. - Yeah. - Or we have less access to it, because it's so specific to that city. - Yeah, it's like the crazy gets turned up, somewhat. - It's more of like a smorgasbord of America, as opposed to like a big deep dish, you know? - Which, with that in mind, if you are a taxidermist in Salt Lake City, Austin, or Dallas, reach out to us, we'd love to put some birds on stage, some dead birds on stage. - Yeah, we do, I gotta say, I'm pretty proud of how our stage is end up looking. We dress them beautifully. And if you work for Invisalign, you're looking to sponsor one of my live shows and sort my bite out. Don't need you to break my jaw, but get in touch, flight this bridge at gmail.com. - If they were willing to break your jaw for free, it's part of the sponsorship. - So they'll cover the whole procedure. - No, I never want my jaw broken man. - It sounds terrible. - I've never had a more horrific thing put to me by like a medical professional. - You sure it's like, we'll put stitches in, yeah. Like, to break, don't break me. I'm here to be put together. My body's already a mess, don't break it more. - You know what I mean? Those like surgeries that people have to get taller, where they like break their legs and extend them. - To extend, yeah, some horrific. Yeah, I still can't believe it. - Now, today we're gonna talk to Mara Wilson, I'm a record of that conversation a few days ago, delightful combo. But I thought it was important 'cause we had such a whimsical, wonderful Nickelodeon chat. - Yeah. - Just to kind of acknowledge and sort of look at some of the craziest sides to being a child, sort of being involved in children's TV. 'Cause it is just objectively quite a weird thing. It's like being a kid's quite weird and then suddenly you're a star and on camera and working with a bunch of adults intrinsically quite a weird thing to do. Like usually when you're a kid, you're not working as well. - Right, yeah, yeah. - So like, such a way of everything going on. - Acting is like one of the weird things where you're a kid, you're getting paid to do quite a hard and tense job. - Yeah. - And that and do itself is quite weird. - Which, and you, when you were a kid, like going back to the Nickelodeon episode, you're not thinking about that for any of these kids. - Absolutely not like that as long. - And you're like, there's no part of you as a kid, which is good, that is thinking like, oh, this person could be treated horribly or. - No, the opposite is like these kids have the best, they're having the best time. I wish I could have a time that good. - Yeah. - Obviously some of those kids had a terrible time. - Yes. Well, and the funny thing about the cartoons is, I think a lot of the kids' voices on cartoons are grown adults just doing crazy voices. - I remember I was lucky enough to go to a table read of The Simpsons One Time, and so you had all the actors. There was a couple of them was zooming in, but most of them were in the room. - How old were you? - 10. - No, no, this was like last year. And I was, I went there as, 'cause a friend of mine works in the show, and just seeing, I mean, I know we all know this, seeing adults voice like Bar and Lisa, and like. - Well, and they're like different genders from the characters too, a lot of times. - Mine blowing, it's the weirdest thing. So yeah, that is quite a weird aspect to it. Quiet on set is like the definitive thing I feel that got people kind of talking about how bad things could be and that dealt specifically with, what was the guy's name, Dan Schreider? - Yeah, Schneider. - Schneider. - Which, I mean, he probably worked on a handful of the shows we talked about last week. So many of them, so many of them. And the stories I haven't kind of dribbled out in 2018, kind of me two time, deadline to an article about some gender discrimination. So it kind of started sort of lightly, nothing like too insane, but still awful. And then 2021, New York Times reported that Nickelodeon had severed ties with them. So obviously something else is sort of, something else is going on. [BLANK_AUDIO] Yeah, and that was more I think about him verbally abusing colleagues and just kind of being like a sh*t head Volshi idiot and then in 2022 more reports came out and that was more about him requesting massages on set I understand often kids from my adults, but getting into like not great territory at all Yeah, bad power dynamics And then since then There's been a lot of accusations about him behaving inappropriately with younger stars On set because he was like the creator like he'd like he was the guy that everyone knew made the shows and he'd be wandering around and all these sets And there's a lot of as enough accusations He's denied a lot of them, but there's so many of them you kind of have to go Oh, yeah, if something's going on here. This is not good and just crazy to think that like the head Like Nickelodeon big honcho is the one who is also just like a gross dude. Yeah, I mean like the like team advantage in the power dynamic of that especially Introducing kids is the like worst worst imaginable thing I have a hard time watching those types of things. I've I've intentionally not watched that documentary. Yeah, having kids myself Yeah, those are those are hard watches for me. Yeah, yeah, because it's it's funny. It's like I feel that way I still haven't watched the Michael Jackson doc because it feels too eki It's like once it gets into that territory. It's like I believe this person's a horrific person don't need to watch a blow by blow of the whole thing Yes, that's how I feel like I Understand and yeah, that's all I need to hear and know about it And I often think about this was just the amount of true crime kind of horror show stuff that served up It is kind of good sometimes to know your limits of like What you should watch yeah and consume and have some sense of like boundaries and that um And yeah, I kind of I don't have kids I think I can complete you understand how that would make things even more um unpalatable because it's like the worst thing You can think about as someone being a shithead and any capacity or children or any kids it's like well even like At watching adolescence is like that too like you're you're watching A kid that reminds you of your kid or like When your kid is the same age and yeah, it's hard to just not like Think about like oh if I was this parent and this was happening you what am I doing? Yeah, yeah Yeah, in the case of adolescence your immediate reaction is like I'm gonna defend my kid like my could wouldn't do anything like this Yeah, you know, but then that whole the reason that show was so brilliant is like okay Well, what if he did yeah, and how are you dealing with that? I just got goose bumps thinking about adolescence like that show is still one of the most probably a perfect show or I think so yeah As you can get performances the way it was shot. Yeah, and do you haven't seen adolescence it's gonna devastate you But please watch him incredible child actor and like who knows What like having to do that is gonna like hopefully there's enough of a support system around This kid which I will say to I think that's important and tomorrow we'll touch on that's a little bit like Sets are all different and studios are all different and films are all different like what happened on one I don't think you can blanket Say is every child experience and we shouldn't be assuming that no, and I think that's why Mara's story is good because like she She had like a pretty positive time on the sets It was more just the fact of what being a child star like did to her psyche and how other people were because of that So she's got a much more like nuance view I think the craziest thing about the Nickelodeon situation is that we got so much feedback Which I'll read later two last weeks episode because everyone has they grew up with these iconic amazing shows It's just so bizarre that the guy behind so many of those shows was a sleaze bag Yeah, well, and these characters that meant so much to so many people's childhoods and I believe impacted lives so much Like knowing then what they were going through while this was being made Yeah, but it's a dark cloud over Thanks, and I can see why Nickelodeon wanted to sever ties and we also we touched on this a little bit in this slimy Facility which is going back a while now, but you know this this specific and you can there's a shit ton of this online It's been he's been written about at length, but he was obviously all for to certain actors and inappropriate To people allegedly underage as well as adults, but then you just look at like you widen it out And it's really weird thinking about stuff like slime You know like just the just these kids getting like Slime all the time if you start to look at it through like another lens it gets creepier and creepier and weirder and you can One aspect can be like oh kids are getting like gunged or slimed. It's hilarious But then suddenly when you look at the person that's like doing this and inventing it and you look at those games It does take on like a super weird dynamic Yeah, which we talked about in the slime episode But I keep thinking about that as well like there's so much weirdness. Yeah, it tends to introduce Tense the image for sure completely, but yeah, that is also why we wanted to talk to a child actor because us talking about it is Not helpful. We weren't child actors. We don't know what that was like. I was actually one of the worst actors at my school I tried to be in a Shakespeare production and I was so So shy Mouth went like painfully dry. Yeah, I was it was amid some of night's dream. I kind of remember what my character was But I was very minimal just panic just like awful being on stage. Yeah, couldn't think of anything worse and hey We're going on stage. Yeah March 29th Yeah, it's like an April 4th. Maybe David'll recite some of Miss some of the ice cream Oh, just flashbacks. Oh, freeze up. Oh my god. Yeah, let's talk tomorrow. Yeah, this is mara I'm she was actually using an hfeo.com called um showbiz kids which you should watch um But this is her on our couch a couple of days ago My name is Mara Wilson and I am a writer actor mostly voice over these days Mostly these days I do audiobook narration which I absolutely love best job. I've ever had And I write articles I write plays I write all kinds of different things Brighter performer blah blah blah and yeah, and I was a child actor to grew up in the LA area It was sort of surreal meeting you because I grew up in New Zealand knowing Matilda very very well Mrs. Doubtfire as well And I thought that's why it would be good to have you in here today because we've recently done an episode on Nickelodeon And got to thinking about the world of Children in TV and especially in Los Angeles. It's such a thing And I was like oh my god. I know someone that could speak to this so clearly And we talk about it in a fun way and we know that it's not always it's I mean I kind of have an issue with the way that a lot of these things are being talked about right now Because you know things like child abuse and child exploitations are problems with institutions And I think a lot of people look at Hollywood and they think it is uniquely terrible to children It is not always a great place, but I can say from personal experience. I always felt safe on film sets There were some questionable things like hey Mara could you work overtime, you know, and You're asking you know a 10-year-old can she work overtime? But But it wasn't the abuse of place that so many people think it was and you didn't come out of a nightmare situation I mean, I kind of did but like it wasn't it wasn't the sets It wasn't the film industry. It was I say, you know, Hollywood pushes you into the pool But it's the public that holds you under maybe we should sort of start by how you got into this space as well Because I kind of mentioned being your age as a kid and being in front of a camera or even thinking about that How did they even begin for you? I grew up in Burbank, California My dad worked at NBC for a while and my parents didn't get me into it It's funny because I've had the nepo baby thing thrown at me And I'm like my dad was a maintenance engineer at a TV station And they're like oh, we know how you got exactly exactly. I'm like I'm like nobody gives a shit about engineers And my dad will tell you that himself Whenever they change owners people will say to my dad like are you worried about this? And he goes does the cockroaches care to the cockroaches care who on this the building? Yeah And people always forget they think it's like these power players all the time But they forget the thousands of people who work on film sets So I grew up with children of you know editors and people who did practical effects And you know children of first 80s and things like that Burbank where I lived was more of a lower middle class, you know Even working class area at the time. It is not anymore And there were people who were actors, but they were very low level actors They were they were journeyman actors. They weren't making a lot of money So that was what it was and I think I know that my grandfather worked in PR at one point And he I think was like hey, they need families for this toothpaste commercial My parents were like okay, we have five children and it would be nice to put some money away for college So they appeared in it and they wanted real families And I've watched the video and they did two real families and one of these are these California blonde You know hippie Wide area and family like playing guitar together and singing And then there's my family which opens with my mom yelling at my brother for Hitting one of my brothers and you see them get hit and you see them yelling on the camera And I'm just like oh great, we're that family And I didn't know this so I was an adult. I was in it as a baby So really that was my first commercial But one of my brothers after that was like, you know, he was very He was very charming very talkative and He was like hey, I'd like to do more of this So he did more but he got really burned out of it. He burned out on it really quickly. He was like, I don't like this anymore. I like something else. Yeah. And it's funny because for a lot of us, I think, who grew up there, it was kind of just like an after school activity. It was so normal. It was more coming from outside of LA. It seemed weird to understand that. I have two kids that are growing up in LA and our three-year-old has been on the podcast. It's been on armchair and, like, has- Which is super weird right outside our handle. It's totally normal and there's people at a school and parents that are on TV that he sees. Or people are at the top of the top. Yeah, that is in the culture so deeply. Yeah, but it's not as like insane as it sounds not being here. I have friends who's parents or directors who like, you know, they made a movie and, you know, the daughter was like in the background. But yeah, I saw what my brother was doing and I was like, I want to do that. And I think I was kind of born a bit of a people-pleaser. And you cannot be a child actor without being a people-pleaser. That's one of the problems with child acting is that it encourages a lot of bad traits. A lot of people think people will say all the time, like, oh, well, you must have been abused in the industry, blah, blah, blah, which is a really messed-up assumption to make about somebody. Like, oh, I bet you were like molested. That's like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, that should come from me. Exactly. And no, I wasn't. And any sexual harassment I did experience was because I was in the public eye and I was accessible. So I had creepy old men, you know, writing me letters and like posting pictures about me on the internet and doing these really awful things. And it was because I was in the public eye. And so I think a lot of people focus on these things. They never focus on the public's role in it. They don't focus on what the public does to children, you know. And I do think people are kind of having a reckoning because like 20 years ago, you remember the countdowns to when the Olsen twins and Emma Watson and everybody were legal. Which is mad when you think about that. Yeah. But you see some of those people on mainstream talk shows back then as well and the way the hosts treat them and the kind of questions they have. I got asked all the time if I had a boyfriend when I was a kid and I was like, no, I'm seven. Why would I have a boyfriend? Yeah. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Shopify. 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So when did you notice the transition when people did start knowing who you were? Like what role really solidified that where you noticed those things? I mean, it was a little bit without fire, but it wasn't bad. And I was actually really close friends with Matt and Lisa who played my brother and sister in that movie. And so sometimes Lisa and I would go out shopping or something and people would be like, "You're that girl from that movie." And so are you? Yes, so you had this really positive experience internally and what got you was more the fact that they didn't prepare you or no one really prepared you for what it was like in public and what that would be like and how to deal with fame essentially. That was the hard part. I think that there's so much that children are exposed to. People have said to me, "Can you be a healthy child actor?" And you know, or child stars shouldn't exist. And I say, I think you can be a somewhat healthy child actor, but I don't think you can be a healthy child star. If it were up to me, what I would do is I would do things like, first of all, I think directors should be interviewing the families of people there because there are unfortunately. And I knew this a lot. A lot of people whose parents are maybe addicts or parents are maybe, you know, living like curiously, parents who are abusive. They should be doing that. They should not force children to do press junkets at all. Like, I remember the stranger things kids were like always being interviewed by everybody. And I was like, give them a break. They are children. They are teenagers. But someone that doesn't understand the junket circuit, like, what is it about that that is particularly like harrowing, do you think? Like, you know how intense a job interview is? Imagine having 20 of them in one day while you're jet lagged and you're not quite sure what city you're in. So essentially, you're setting a chair while in the other chair about 30 journalists are brought through and one up to the other basically. Sit down, hello, questions. Yes, they do. It's going to be the same questions all day long that you're going to be very tired of. And then there's going to be like one question that they spring on you that's completely inappropriate or bizarre. Yeah, just to get that little bit of audio. Exactly. Exactly. And so you're in a strange dark room basically having, and it feels like a job interview. And so people will be, we'll say something sometime they'll be like, why did they give such canned answers? Or they'll say, why is this act directing like they're out of their mind? They're kind of are. Because they are. Yeah, especially when they're receiving. Exactly. And I don't think it's fair to do that to children. And I think that there's some measures that I've seen. Like I know, the show, Bluey has child actors on it, but they do not put those child's, those children's name in the credits. And I know like in the movie After Sun, the director, there's a kissing scene, but she angled the camera so the actors didn't actually have to kiss. And I think that that's, that could be very respectful because there is definitely, there were a lot of movies that I was getting where, where I would have to kiss someone. And I remember my dad being like, you know, how do you feel about this? That's, we are saying, you know, a director potentially should interview a whole family because you had a family that was, had your back the whole time. Yeah. There's kids there that, that family, nothing of a shit that they don't do. No, they don't. That's what everybody says. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, my parents were very worried about me being sexualized as a child. And it's probably a good thing that I was a really awkward teenager. Like I was just, I was just all braces and, you know, ends it. And I was, I was not a cute. There were some, there were some child actors who were like beautiful teenagers. I was not. I was a really awkward one. Although I wish I could say, like, it meant that I wasn't sexualized, but I wasn't. I still was, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't something that helped me. My parents tried to protect me from it, but I was still finding links, you know, that said, like we have nude pictures of Mara Wilson. And obviously they didn't. It just meant I was photoshopped into child sexual abuse materials. And I mean, can you imagine finding that at 12. But so what did that sort of do to you back then and what sort of help did you have around you to cope with that? Because I don't know how you mean to cope with something like that, something that's out of your control. I always had people who knew me and loved me. I had studio teachers that were like mentors to me. I had, you know, family members that knew and loved me. And, you know, my family was going through a lot in those years too, because my mother died. So we were all kind of struggling. And, you know, I was probably going to be an anxious child dealing with, you know, a severe trauma, no matter what. But, uh, and I had a creative outlet. I had creative outlets that were not just acting. So I always loved writing and I had that. I ran away from Hollywood to do community theater and like improv and show choir. Was that sort of, was that a protective mechanism? Do you think getting out of acting that was the decision you made? My parents were like, you should take some time off now and go to school. What age did that happen? Probably around middle school, high school. My dad kept saying, you know, go to college, then maybe come back, maybe you can direct, maybe you can produce, maybe you can do that. And at that point, I was kind of, it's funny. I feel like the same way that people rebel against their families. I was kind of rebelling against film. I was like, fuck film. I'm a theater person. I'm going to live in New York for a year. Yeah. Yeah. And so every now and then people were like, oh, would you be in a movie again? And I'm like, yeah, it was fun. Or if it, you know, was something I really believed in. Or, or if it were with friends, like I know a lot of people who. like to make creative stuff with their friends, but don't necessarily. - The best. - Yeah, it is. My friends who work on Welcome to Night Vale say make things you like with people you love and you'll never go wrong. - Completely, and they've got your back the whole time as well. - Yeah, exactly. - Do you think in the States or just in the world in general where we're at now? Do you think people are more respectful or less in the way that they treat you when you're out in the wild? - People don't always recognize me that used to. It's usually a certain demographic. Like I remember being on the train when I was in New York and if like a group of girls of a certain age got onto the train and I was like not feeling well and didn't want to be photographed, I would get up and move to another car. - You can see it coming. - Yeah. - Yeah. Like a lot of retail situations, a lot of times people will talk to me, you know, face to face, we face to face interactions, I'll get people kind of looking at me. And then I get to play the game of, is this person looking at me because they know me as a person? Is this person looking at me because they recognize me as this person checking me out? And it's usually the second one or, but I get a lot of, you look so familiar. - Yes, do I tell them what do I just move on? - Yeah, and I usually just move on unless they ask me. I didn't used to appreciate it. But now it really does, now I'm like, no, this is a nice thing, they appreciated my work. I think it's also because when you're a child, you know, you did one thing. Like kids will do with something one year and it's kind of like, you know, oh, they took Taekwondo lessons one year and then like two years later people are like, so how's Taekwondo and they're like, what are you even talking about? And that's kind of what it was like for me. Like people would come up to me Matilda and I would be like, I'm in middle school. What are you talking about? - Yeah. - And funnily enough in Burbank, there was like a hierarchy because there were so many child actors, but I was not one of the cool child actors at school because I was in kids movies. So they were like, you're in baby movies. - Oh. - All the cool kids are gap models. - They're in ET. - Yeah, like all the cool kids are, all the cool kids are on like, you know, I don't know, like Buffy or weirdly seventh heaven was cool even though that is the least cool show that has ever existed. - Oh my God. - That show was terrible. - Yeah. - That was big in New Zealand when I was a kid. - I'm not age well. - No. - Age very, very, very bad. - For many reasons, it's terrible. And there was a lot of jealousy. So there was a lot of like, assuming, you know, I went to school with Michelle Tracht and Bergen. She was really badly bullied because people were like, how fucking dare you be on Buffy? How fucking dare you be on our favorite show? - Yeah, she and Buffy. - She was like. - The sister that's kind of Brett Condon and that's kind of the point is that she doesn't, yeah. And people were incredibly cruel to her. People would look at me and they'd be like, they'd be like, you're a nerd, why are you in movies? - Looking at what friends and colleagues and just people in the world are doing in the world of acting. Do you think things have improved in the world of child actors? Are people, are the more, is the more care in place or is it still chaotic? When you look at like, as you said, the strange things kids doing in this junkets. - Yes and no. Yes, because people now understand that it is a job and I think that people just kind of wrote us off as spoiled breaths years ago. They were like, oh, these kids are getting everything they ever wanted to do. They're privileged little shits. Yeah, you're, you know, you're American royalty, basically. And I mean, we do get a lot of people doing things for us. You know, I did have somebody heating up sunscreen in the microwave before they put it on my face. - Oh, also you are. - We were privileged. Yes, like, like, we were privileged and it's funny because I met somebody who was a child actor's father recently at a convention and he was telling me about his kiddies. Like, I've noticed that a lot of child actors tend to be very forgetful because there's always somebody telling them what to do. So they never get to work that muscle. - Yeah. - Which, if you're as like ADHD as I am already, like, I'm, you know, I'm an object at rest that stays at rest unless somebody's like, hey, Mara, you need to get going. Hey, Mara, you need to do your homework. Hey, Mara, we're ready for you. So that wasn't it for me. But it's, that's a different kind of spoil than getting everything you want. And one thing I'm seeing is people are scapegoating Hollywood and saying, well, the abusers are in Hollywood, it's evil. And yes, there are abusers in Hollywood. I know people have been sexually harassed, abused by people in power there. But I think that that's an institutional thing. I think if you look at, you know, mega churches, if you look at any kind of big religious institution, if you look at schools, if you look at, you know, scouting, if you look at all these kinds of things. - Yeah, there's going to be pockets that kids absolutely abuse and not treated well. - Because predators are drawn to these places where they can have power. And in Hollywood, I have power over this person's dream, over this person's life. So they take over there. And, but like I was, my, my agent was like a family friend. She was like family to us. We loved her. - Well, such a broad, like just Hollywood where like it's different if you're on a Daniel's movie or you're the kid in adolescence. - Yeah. - A giant production version of the time. - The toddlers in Tears. - Well, my parents always wanted me to do movies and not TV. I knew like teen stars who couldn't go outside without like crowds of girls grabbing their shirts. And a lot of them are like, I don't want anything to do with this anymore. - Yeah. - So my parents said, if you're in movies, people will know you for playing different parts. They won't know you for being the same person over and over again. And be calling you by that character's name forever. Well, I mean, people do still call me Matilda, but honestly, Matilda's a cool character, so I don't really mind anymore. - The best character, it's the best character. Do you find it unique to America like having gone to other places and how they treat child actors? - Well, I know that the UK press is pretty brutal. Although I will say that UK fans are shy. I remember like doing things in Liverpool, I think, and like people coming up and like barely speaking. - So Sam and New Zealand, why would you shy? - It's a very common well thing. It's, I mean, it's honestly, it's the same reason why I've completely failed to flirt with cute people in the UK. Like, I've tried and it just, no, I can't. I'm too direct for them. They just blush and walk away. - No freak out. - Yeah, they freak out. - No, what's happening to me? It's happening to me. - And I'm just like, oh, I have no game here. It's, I can't, I can't just be like, you know, you're cute. And they'll be like, oh God, who are you? What are you? - I'm American. - Yeah, exactly, sorry. And I'm Jewish American, I'm even more direct. And I used to live in New York. So yeah, so there's no, I'm a triple threat. - Yeah, but the celebrity culture there and the, the, the, the paparazzi there is really bad. I haven't experienced but it, but I think that they've, they've got a lot of other people. I do think that paparazzi has kind of turned their attention away from us. And I think a lot of people find these, this paparazzi, they find it kind of disgusting and they've accepted that now. - He's been a pushback to that culture for sure. - But I have noticed the fans I met in Latin America were very sincere. And it probably also has to do with the fact that it came out, at least in Colombia, it came out at a time that was very, a very hard time in their history. So it was a movie that they kind of, a lot of the kids they're kind of used to escape. - It was like escapism, yeah, that means so much. - Yeah, that they found in it. - But I do think that one thing that I wish we could get though is standardized practices across other countries. When it comes to child actors, like I have a friend who is my studio teacher in Canada 'cause we filmed everything in Toronto and Vancouver back in the day. And she says that there, if they have to do really emotional scenes, they have to talk to a therapist. Like there's a non-set therapist. - 'Cause because your brain isn't even fully formed yet as a kid to deal with any of that stuff. Your friend allows miles away from being done. - That said though, I think people worry a lot about kids doing really dramatic scenes and things, but I think the kids are actually better at doing that than adults because kids still pretend. And acting's not pretending really, but it is, it's something a little bit more meditative than that. But I could shake off doing really dramatic scenes. I could cry and then I could just go to lunch. As an adult though, that's where you see actors falling in love on film sets and then realizing, oh shit, we probably shouldn't have done this. It was just the role, you know? - That's really interesting. - Like having affairs on the film set and then getting like. - Yeah, kids are better at pretending. - My friend Lisa went through this as well where we had boy characters and movies that were supposed to be in love with us who actually hated us. And we're two years older than us and we're like, you're an annoying little kid, get away from me. So that's kids pretend and kids. And I think, I mean, I don't think I was a great actor as a child, but I think that I was a better actor in some ways as a child because it was easier for me to get vulnerable. Whereas now, it's harder. It's harder for adults to get vulnerable. - It's a bit of a hat question, but what's been like one of the strangest kind of interactions you've had with a fan or someone that knows your work? They are not necessarily just something that stood out to you. - Most fans are very nice. I've been told I have kind of a resting, concerned face. Like I can look really like intense and really deep in thought. - I think you look thoughtful. - Yeah, I look thoughtful and I've had people come up and be like, oh my God, are you okay? You look so sad. Do you want a hug? And I'm like, you know, or they'll say like, it must be so hard for you to do these conventions. And I'm like, - Oh, 'cause they assume you're looking like slightly sad or pensive as opposed to just you're fine. - Or it's somebody said to me at one, they were like, well people haven't been, it looks like people haven't been coming to your booth and like, you look like you just need a hug. And I was like, if I wanted a hug, I would get it from somebody I know. And it's so funny to see that parasocial thing of like, well, I'm here but I'm not like the other ones. It reminds me of like men going to strip clubs and being like, I'm so sorry for the way that they treat you here. You know? - So you're one of them here. - Yeah, exactly, you're one of them, you know? And so there was that, although the creepiest interaction I had was a guy came over and he was on the phone. He's like, I'm calling a friend. My friend wants a photo and he looks at my photo as he goes, how old were you in this photo? And I was like, oh, maybe seven or eight. And he's like, okay, was this your first movie? And I'm like, yeah, he's asking questions and people just ask those questions sometimes. And he like says something on the phone to his friend and he's like, okay, which one were you the youngest in? - Oh boy, time out. - Yeah, and I immediately like look over to the guys there and I say the code, but they don't, 'cause we usually have a code for, that means like, please get rid of this person. That very rarely happens. But I say the code and the guys like, you know, and, uh, and then, but instead of him telling him to go away, I just basically looked directly at the guy and I said, "You need to go." I said, "What you're asking is very creepy." And he goes, "Well, I'm just trying to do a favor for a friend." And yeah, and I think I probably said something like get some better friends or I was just like, it doesn't matter. - There wasn't his friend on the phone. He was just there talking to nobody, you know? - I was like, I was just like, "Yeah, this is extremely creepy." And I told him he needed to leave. - I had a friend that did the convention circle and she had been, she had had, like, some different nude roles in films and someone had screen grabbed all of those shots from all the different productions, made it into a calendar that they had then printed and wanted to hire a designer at a signing table. And it's like, "What brain are you in?" Where that becomes something to do. - Yeah, I mean, I narrate audiobooks and I've done some, I've done romance and I've done some spicy romance. But sometimes I look at like the guys I know who do spicy romance and nobody bothers me, nobody bothers me about doing these books with sex scenes in them. I'll see some men who do it and I'm just like, "Oh, you have like a really intense following." And I would be, I would be freaking out. - Oh, that's a whole scene. - Oh, it is, yeah, it is. The women who do, who do spicy audiobooks, we get ignored, but that's probably a good thing. - Well, that's so funny. It's as weird reversal. - Oh, yeah. - It's like, he's rivalry right now. - Yeah, oh, yeah. I do love heated rivalry. - I know. But I like romance, so, you know. But yeah, but I did notice like those guys did, they did like an erotic short story together, I think on one of these apps. And I was like, I hope that they're okay. I mean, what I do have to say is I'm really glad those guys like have each other. 'Cause I know like, for me, even just like, having like my friends from Matilda was good for me. - Which is wild. I mean, that says something about the production that you're in and the team you had around you and probably why you do feel safe. Like, you're still a friend still. That's pretty unique, I imagine. - Yeah, so like Kiyomi, who played Lavender and Jackie, who played Amanda Thrip and I will like do conventions together or we'll just hang out. - Cool. - Yeah. - It's awesome. What a trip you wouldn't expect that at the time. Like, you're in that, you're not like, I'm gonna be friends with you for four years. - We're gonna be friends 30 years later, right? - 30 years on, that's insane. - I look at people who are in stuff like heated rival, which is way more intense than being in something like Matilda. And I'm like, well, I hope that they're actually friends. I hope that they're, I hope that team like stays together as a group. That the actors seem like they're friends and it seems like the director producer is like taking care of them as well. But, but this is what I mean when I say it's better and it's worse. It's better because people realize now what people are going through, but also people have so much access. And I have this thing that I call the uncanny valley of relatability, which is basically people love like when an actor is like a little bit relatable and is like a little bit human. And then at some point they go too far. And either you find out that they don't share your exact same politics or they say something really stupid or, you know, it's like Anne Hathaway or Linwan Mooranda or Jennifer Lawrence where people just get overexposed and they're tired of them. And they're suddenly they're really mean to them. And it goes like this like Julia Caesar crowd scene where everybody loves you. And then everybody hates you. And there's this drop off point. So just a little thought exercise. Say like Rob's kids want to get into acting. What advice would you give to like friends kids who are thinking about this? Like to the kid or to the parents? Like what are the things to kind of look out for? Are you like, yeah, go and do it and enjoy yourself or you like do it, but keep this in mind. - There's a lot that I would ask them to keep in mind. I would say that probably I think the safest thing to do is to do like one or two projects. Make money that you can put aside for college or like travel or whatever when you're older. And have it be like a fun experience. Like make scrapbooks of it, which is what me and my family did 'cause we thought it was just gonna be fun. So, you know, I still have like a, you know, book of photos and polaroids of when I was in doubt fire. - But not like this must be your life. - No, no. - This is just a career at this age. - Yeah, well, I also say to people, this is kind of brutal, I say, a lot of people want their kids to be stars, but you're not, are you, do you want your kid to be a husband? Because they're going to be accused of being a husband and they're gonna be accused of being a husband when they're like 13. - Yeah, which is insane. - Yeah, I mean, I thought people say things to me like, oh, how does it feel to know you peaked? And also they shouldn't do it if they want to get famous because being famous is something that's really hard. I mean, it's easier to do than it used to, but it's, you probably will never be famous enough and or you will be and then you'll hate it. - Yeah, but that's your reason for doing it. You're not gonna be happy. That's not gonna lead to a happy life. - Terrible idea. I say to people, try to stick to theater and stick to performing in that way, stick to having a connection with an audience because with theater, like I know a lot of people who'll say things like I would never do a nude scene in a movie, but I would in theater because, you know, there's a contract sort of with an audience, you know, it's an ephemeral thing. Versus like anybody being able to print out the images and make a calendar out of it. - You don't need to be sent to a cut on YouTube whatever a calendar. - Exactly, yeah. So try to imagine how happy you were when you were first performing and it was usually for your family or like at church or something like that. And then think, if you could only ever have that audience, would you still be happy? And if it's yes, then you're doing it for the love of the game. And also, yeah, don't ever push your kids. If it gets to be too hard for your kids, get them out of it immediately, be constantly checking in with them. - What are they making? Lots of millions of dollars for them. - I mean, that's the thing though. Brooke Shields talked about this in her memoir. Her mother was an alcoholic and not only were they making a lot of money and like living better, but also she felt like film sets were so regimented that they were the place she felt safest. And her mom was kind of at her best. And I saw a lot of that as well. I saw a lot of addict parents and film sets are very, very regimented places. So yeah, I think that and it can be a really great experience, but I know a lot of people who, for whom it was sort of just like a one-time thing. They acted in one movie and then they were like, nope, I'm gonna go back to school. I'm gonna be myself. I'm gonna do other things. And I wish we could do that. I think I wish more people would do that. And like I said, I do wish it was standardized across countries because I do think child acting in Canada is different than acting in the US, which is different than acting in the UK, which is different than acting in New Zealand, which is different than, you know, it's really, it's very different. And I wish we had more of a standardized thing. I mean, we do have a former child actor as the SAG president now. So maybe we'll see more standardization things. Oh, really? Yeah, Sean Austin. No way, who seems lovely. Lord of the Rings? Yeah, he was, well, he was in Goonies, you know, he was a child actor and he came from a family of actors. And he seems to have turned out great. He seems like the loveliest human on the planet. I met him before and he's a very nice guy. Yeah, he is. No, I think it's a really interesting take though. I'm good to hear that it's obviously this badness everywhere with kids where they're in an organized group. It is corrupt. It's not just Hollywood. It's an institution. It's a business. It's capitalist above all else. And it's not immoral. It's amoral. Well, I'm the audience that's consuming it. They never look at themselves. And that drives me crazy. Yeah. Because I'm saying over and over again, you know what? You guys were the ones who gave me the most problems. And they don't realize that. If we're going to direct our audience to something that you have made or done recently, where would you like people to go? I wrote an article for The Guardian recently about The Guardian US about child sexual abuse materials and AI, where I've talked a lot about how so many children now may be forced to live my nightmare of being photoshopped or being AI, being made into child sexual abuse materials. And what I think we can do to advocate against that. And what we can do legally, what we can do politically, what we can do socially to fight against that. That's something that is very important to me. Thank you, Mara. You're very welcome. Yeah, Mara's great. Love her. Freakin' awesome. Calvin recently discovered Matilda. No way. And it was fun. It still hits. Still hits. Like, she's so good in that. Yeah, that was such a fun kids movie. Yeah, Mrs. Trunchbull. Yeah. You're in Tolerose, but I bought that up. I forgot about that whole character. But like, it's like perfect because every kid, it's so relatable. This is going to sound bad because I don't think-- I don't roll with it. My finger. Whenever you think this is going to sound bad, I like to just say it. That's what we all mean should do. No, no, I just-- I related to her. I felt like my family treated me like her family did when I was a kid, which is a very dramatic take on it, because they definitely did not. I love this so much. We the youngest. No, I was second youngest, but I was like the black sheep of the four children. I was like the weird kid that was into music and art that they thought I was on drugs because I wasn't-- Not going to church. Were you more like McCulley Culkin and Homeline or Matilda or Matilda? Who did you identify with more? I mean, I think family-wise was very much more home-aligned and identified with that. But it was still in that same route. But her parents and Matilda were terrible, which I-- Yeah. Looking back, I had great parents. Not just to be clear. Did you have a mistrunchable type character at school or in your childhood? Yeah. My-- I did. Yeah, OK, you go first. Yeah, I had a teacher that-- She grabbed me by the ear or the neck. That's such a mad point. Just to tell you off, shake you around a bit or to lead you somewhere. I had done this, and she didn't like with one of my friends. I don't know if she thought we were getting a fight or something, and she grabbed me very hard. She got me really hard in the arm. It was the vice principal of my elementary school. We-- the teacher who made that-- I was terrified of her. It didn't help that I'd been home-school until I was 11. And so I went into school for the first time when I was 11. Suddenly, had other kids in my class and was getting kind of told off for the first time. Um, because mommy never told me off when I was being, I was called, you know, mom, like, slum. She didn't know. Um, but didn't call her mommy. Um, now you do, but you did not. But there was one teacher, um, our art teacher, Mrs. Denny. She was mean and I wasn't great at art and I certainly didn't get motivated to keep trying it out in her class from someone being mean to you, from someone being mean to me. But she, I just always remember and she didn't just say this to me, but it stuck with me and I fucking love this because I'll always say it to people and they apologize, especially after like a really like horrific argument. She'd say, if you were sorry, you wouldn't have done it in the first place. And it's, it's whenever someone apologizes to me for something or I hear someone apologize and just someone I'll always interject with that most annoying statement, non-sensical bullshit you could ever say. I had a similar teacher, uh, mean, uh, junior high teacher. He would say, don't be sorry. Be correct. Yeah. Do you think these teachers, like, when they say that, they think they've got a great line and they just love roasting kids with this dumb bullshit? It's stuck. It's stuck with that. The words of wisdom. Have you ever been tempted to say that to your kids? No, but that it's still like in my brain. It sits, right? Yeah. Okay. Just while I was thinking about this top of good child stars, um, Hayme and Corey Feldman came to mind. The two quarries, I kind of missed out on this at the time, but I know, um, Corey from, what was it, Hayme from Stan by me? Who was in Stan by me? It was Corey, amazing coming of age, film Stephen King, um, Corey ended up going on and having like a fairly horrific kind of music career. Like he's still performing. Yep. Um, Hayme, um, died from pneumonia in like 2010. He had like massive addiction problems, but I always think of those two brothers when I think of like famous two early and things just kind of going off the rails later. And Drew Barrymore, I forgot was in rehab when she was sort of 13, 14 because she was just, she got too famous too soon. I guess from ET was the thing that like made her a huge, like the biggest movie, the Gettys. I think that generation was one ahead of me. Right. Right. We call him, call me Ols. I'm nearing 50s, you know, but I, I do think it was a lot harder. Yeah. I think a lot of people had a hard time escaping that, like this is a rare to have those stories where you've got the like Fred Savage from wonder years and the boy means world cast. Like I think they've all kind of gotten through it. And I think what happened in the 80s and prior to that, like was maybe a little more of a cautionary tale. And yes, um, as you went into the 90s, and yeah, there was no, they gave them a little more care. Yeah, because there was no Judy of care, right? And like, there was no, and I guess you're around that a lot of probably parents as well, just like wanted to extract the cash from that kids as well. And it was just all a bit feral. I can't imagine if like we're progressing to being a more positive thing. Like how much more fucked up it was in like the 40s and 50s and 60s. Yeah. Child stars. Yeah. Um, which speaking of child stars, I went and I saw cap power last night at the Orphium. Good show. Great show. Yeah. Cool. Um, maybe saying them. Her voice is incredible. And sitting in front of me was Haley Joel Asman. I see dead people from the success. And he, I feel like it's a success story of a totally star. He pops up in a bunch of stuff. And he is, he's hilarious and iconic and a whole other thing. Yeah. It's cool when you see people from that, uh, generation and they're like just doing cool things because they can now completely. I don't know why this just popped into my head, but didn't say by the bell was like a very big thing in my childhood and screech. He went into pornography. Yes. And I believe he's passed away, right? Dustin Diamond. What happened to him? I'm just curious because was that a, he had a professional wrestling career? Did not know he got into wrestling. There was a sex tape at some point by our location. Uh, he was convicted of too much to mean his carrying concealed weapon and disorderly conduct in 2015, four months jail. And then he got small cell castenama of the lungs and came out awful died from me at died from cancer, February 1st, 2021. Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, what really stood out from what Mara was talking about, which seems obvious, but wasn't the first thing I thought about with child stars was that like, press in the public really have a lot to do with why yeah, it can go sideways. You know, one thing you make it off a set unscathed and protected and, uh, with good people around you, which hopefully most the time that is the case. But then just like your brains are developing at that age and just all that attention is just got a fuck with you so much. And I guess this is the added element we're living through now where fame can happen in a very small setting at home. If you're on TikTok and you become a huge or YouTube. Yeah. And then dealing with the fame that comes from that is this whole other thing. It's like the levels of fame when your brain isn't fully formed. I mean, it's hard enough as an adult. I find it hard if like people say, should about me, I find it like still affects me. I can't imagine being like a kid and having to deal with that. And when you're actually big, big and prominent, holy shit. Yeah. Like that whole world is yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I think she mentioned to like, it's just really important that you have a support system and people around you that can help protect you. And if not everyone has that totally and, uh, not everyone's as lucky to have that. And I think also kids are bad sometimes at communicating like you can kids seems happy and fine. They sometimes don't know how to communicate how awful shit is as well. Yeah. So I think having parents and caregivers around that actually can take an active look and like actually check that the kids are okay. Okay. Are you ready for some feedback? Because there's a fuck time. Yes. Feedback, I do want to say I did forget our real monsters. You know the second we start recording. Yeah. Yeah. We're a monster. Yeah. Damn it. Which I love that show. Same. The cartoon from that was one of the first, um, times in art class that I realized you could draw cartoons, um, and just like replicate. Yeah. Them like that. That was one of the first like drawings I did that made me fall in love with art. That little, that little stumpy guy that held his eyes, held his eyes. Yeah. I had, I drew that guy. And it was, and it was like very fond memory. I, I think maybe I, yeah, I just missed that one. Um, you bastard. Hey, dude was another one I missed that I did. Love a lot. That was, um, like same eras, loot your shorts. A lot of people wrote in about that. He dude was great. People love that show. Like a ranch. Um, and then just snick as a whole, which was Saturday night. Nickelodeon. Snick, um, it was like eight p.m. to 10 p.m. Nickelodeon for like older kids. Oh, yeah. That's where are you for the dark was on that. All that. Kenan and Kell running. Stimpy. It's yeah. Oh, kids TGIF for Nickelodeon. Okay. I mean, I was, I couldn't believe you leave that stuff off. I was shot. Yeah. At that. Um, I was really stunned by the number of people that wrote in saying that they too loved patty mayonnaise. Like people, a lot of people first character they fell in love with, felt an attraction to a few people as well, sent in photos of their dogs who were named patty mayonnaise. And they kind of do look like patty mayonnaise. Yeah. Look at these little dogs. People still writing in a lot about hooters. Um, of course. And net, um, wrote in from New Zealand saying in the mid 2010s, there was a couple in Hamilton New Zealand. And if you know New Zealand, Hamilton is, uh, perfect place for the staff and, um, opened an established establishment called jugs. Do you know what jugs are? Yeah. What? Jugs, uh, I guess like jugs of beer to be. And what would be breasts. There was based off hooters. That tagline was cold jugs and hot racks. It didn't take off and didn't extend expand beyond Hamilton. But they tried racks of lamb and like ribs. I guess so. Yeah. So, um, there was a hooters want to be in New Zealand and it failed miserably. Oh, this is interesting. I don't think about it. I spoke about a massage I had, um, and I think I calls, what did I say, masseuse? Miss, what did I say? I can't remember what I called them. Um, Christy said a woman is a masseuse. A man is a masseur. Today, the person they're giving messages is called a massage therapist. And that's the way we talk about them. I thought that was interesting. Message therapist. I did, uh, we, I don't think we connected the dots when we recorded that episode. But, uh, you basically were objectified when you went to be massaged? Yes. And we did not connect the dots to how much we were trying to tip toe around objectification. Fine. Moment. Um, and just that was the juxtaposition of that was funny. Uh, but it also just is perfectly what, uh, society. ideas that were absolutely perfect. Yeah, um, Jay wrote in saying, one iconic moment in US history was missed. Um, I was completely unaware of this until my girlfriend mentioned having flown on who does airlines multiple times, you sent me a picture after the episode as well Rob of the plane. It's just a who does play. Unbelievable. Yep. Um, so yeah, I just want to say, no, there was a, of course there was a who does airline. Uh, and yeah, the, um, staff on board wore similar outfits to what they wear in the restaurants. I don't think I would, uh, feel comfortable flying on a who does play. No. No. I just, I don't want to fly on a plane that is sort of has like a wacky name in any way. No. I want it to be dead fucking serious when I'm flying. Yeah. I don't want any kind of pageantry. No. Oh, Dan Rodin, I thought this was fascinating, it's far too long, but I'm going to zip through. I've been a food scientist working in product R&D for most of my career, but I worked at a small consulting group right out of college to help restaurants with their menu innovation. Essentially, my job was to help use consumer trend data to help chain restaurants keep their menus fresh. As part of this job, I was assigned to a project with hooters. My experience working with Hooters team was somehow shocking and completely expected. It was a roller coaster. My boss and I arrived at that Atlanta headquarters fresh from the airport where naturally I asked if I could use the restroom after checking in at the front desk, which is where the fun began. I was pointed down a corridor where there were two doors, one labelled standing proud over the silhouette of a man with his hands on his hips and one labelled sitting pretty with a silhouette of a woman in an almost Maryland Monroe Esk stance. I rolled my eyes. They had a tour, they went to the test kitchen, met a few people along the way. On one side of the office, there were offices for a few executives with secretary desks outside of them. I felt very mad men and outdated, but I didn't think anything of it until we were introduced to one of them who rattled off an intro, which included her pointing down to an old photo of herself in the classic hooters uniform. The executive team all had former hooters girls as their secretaries. I just say this is all allegedly, I do believe this guy, and they all probably had frame pictures of themselves. There's one of them put it in their prime. So it just goes on and on and I'll just say like who does HQ just sounds like exactly what you would think HQ is, but to like a comical degree. Jake said, Kiwi here, nostalgic listen, Nickelodeon, there was Nickelodeon, you could pay for the network, but it came match after I was a kid from sky TV, which made me feel old on sky TV. Sometimes a feedback does make me feel closer to 15. Okay, this is interesting, Kate said, fun fact about the Rugrats is that one of the main characters Chucky was growing up with a single dad after his mum died. Yes. Yeah. Chucky's sad dad. It's frequently started dating at some point in the show. Right, really? Yeah. It's frequently cited as one of the earliest cartoons to depict this. And a lot of it goes, including myself, appreciated having this representation. Yeah. There was a lot of feedback too about the Passover episode of Rugrats and how that's where a lot of people learned about Passover was they that's cool. They celebrate Passover. I want to show a few knew about this Rob, AJ said Rocco from Rocco's modern life was a phone six operator. I that vaguely sounds like I don't think it was a sex operator, okay, but I think he was a phone operator. As a kid, I always found it funny. He would say in a very monotone voice, oh baby, oh baby, oh baby, we'll see it in a cubicle for work. Do you have memories of this? I mean, we got to Google this now. This seems kind of outrageous. I have vague memories. I mean, baby, baby, baby, does sound like a six line. It's weird too, because as a kid, you're not clocking those types of references or jokes, so it was just like answering phones and he's so people also ask on Google is Rocco a six phone operator. It was implied in his brief stint as a telephone operator in the season, one episode canned, where an instruction sheet notes employees to be hot, be naughty, and be courteous. And he flatly repeats, oh baby, into the receiver. So yeah, it seems like quite a wild thing to put it, like it's not subtle. Oh baby, oh baby, oh baby, Rocco, miss his big head. That's the gag. And Rocco has a book on his desk called Specialty Phone Operator. Yeah, it's quite naughty, isn't it? But it's subtle enough and like PG enough that a kid's, it's going to totally go over a kid's head. Yeah, Rocco wasn't like, fuck me now, like seeing me over on all fours and fuck me, you know, it wasn't like that. Okay. Capul said, love the trip down memory lane, that one are you afraid in the dark episode with the pool, which we talked about, seems universally the scariest one, is the only one I remember, in fact, and every time that show comes up with friends is the episode they all mention as well. I love the idea of one episode of a TV show just traumatizing a generation, like a generation of kids. Yeah. And I just wonder if the creators knew that they had made something particularly off-putting or they just hadn't tested it on a crowd and like pools are just this universal horror that we have. I mean, the intro to that show was so scary too. Like I remember covering my head when the swings would come on and like, uh, yeah, the wagon. Scary shit. Yeah. A lot of people wrote in about Avatar the last airbender being an amazing animated show. I'm not to be confused with the remake that, um, in I did second, um, I'm not sure I'm on reference. Is Mal said, as a self-proclaimed 90s Nick expert, I had to throw in a few facts. You may have missed Donnie in the wild Thornberry. Yes. Was not. Yeah, you was not Eliza's biological brother. They found him. He'd been raised by monkeys out in the jungle. He's also voiced by Flea of the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Yes. I saw that, which is incredible. Flea seems like a good guy out of all of them, sort of not a Red Hot Chili Peppers guy, but Flea seems like mildly interesting to me. He's acted in some stuff, um, and the dad Nigel is voiced by the great Tim Curry, iconic actor. Angela said, I'm included in her email because a lot of people wrote in about that show. You mentioned, hey, dude, yeah, dude live action series around for five seasons, followed a group of teenagers spending their summer working on a dude ranch, um, intrinsically quite funny. What is a dude ranch? Like, they say this occasionally, dude ranch, like, it's something that, what is a dude ranch? I don't know. You're gonna have to look that up too. I think it's a ranch. A dude ranch. I assume it's like cowboys and just a lot of dudes. I do, like, vividly remember the artwork of that show, though. A guest ranch, also known as a dude ranch, is a type of ranch orientated towards visitors or tourism. So dude ranch doesn't have to be dudes, it's more just touristy. There's a bunch of things, reviews for dude ranch, this dude ranch, that. Yeah, so Wikipedia, a guest ranch also known as a dude ranch, but two years, just a ranch. Quite weird thing to call it, massive Wikipedia page about dude ranchers, maybe it should be a topic. Okay. Oh yeah, it was one more bit of the story that I found interesting. One of the cast members, Joe Tors, or Tories, quit acting and disappeared from the public eye immediately after the show, how dude ended. Over the years several cast members tried unsuccessfully to reach him, which sparked rumors that he might be missing, or even dead. Spoiler alert, he was alive and well the whole time, he simply had no interest in remaining in the public eye, good reference to what this whole episode was kind of about. Anti-climactic maybe, but I remember this being one of the earliest internet-fueled conspiracy theories that I closely followed. Thank you, Angela. If you have feedback on anything in this episode, I got something wrong, maybe I stated my agent correctly again, maybe Rob left off something from a slideshow that he did. Flight this bridge at gmail.com. We have tickets for our three live shows coming up end of March, April. You can find those in the show notes, or over on Instagram page, they are in the links there as well. Anything else? Anything else? I think it's us. Anya, we have Patreon, bonus episodes every week, patreon.com/flatsbird, and we will see you next week.