Child Development Specialist: When discipline begins, why punishment doesn’t work & clear vs. gentle parenting

Welcome back to another episode of two parents and a podcast today. We're going to talk about discipline. We're going to talk about childhood development with Dr. Sige Cohen. We are so excited to have you here today. Dr. Sige is a child development specialist with over 35 years of experience working with children and families. Thank you for being here today. Thank you so much. I'm already loving it. That's good. That's good. That's the idea. I didn't realize I was also a discipline specialist, but only because I've set on the wrong side of how much I was disciplined growing up as a child. That's not good. Must have done a lot wrong. We need to have your parents here. Yes. They were great discipliners and there was a lot of there's a lot of reprimanding that needed to be done. Well, you turned out good. But yeah, thank you so much for for joining us today. Before we get into it, we'd love to hear any additional information that you think would be helpful for our listener to know about you and your background and your experience. Sure. So I am an avid advocate of children and their well-being. And because of that, I loved from as long as I can remember being around children. So for me, it's a joy, literally, not stress being with kids, which and I don't mean to sound like this is, you know, oh, you should all, I understand that children can be stressing and stressful and it's not easy at all. But I'm just saying, like personally, I always enjoyed being around kids. For me, it's like a happy place. So I basically took that into a whole, my whole career where I was a preschool teacher. I was even a camp counselor at some point. I was an after school program director. I mean, I was around kids and families through and through. And always somehow went back to school to further my education to do more in the same field. So I remained in the same field. Even when I taught, for example, I taught college, I taught teachers to be. So even that was part of like me staying within the same field always and helping parents, teachers and children. Really, my goal is for them to all get along. I love it. I mean, that's if that's not the dream. Amazing. And what does that translate to in terms of formal, formal training? You mean like the different degrees? Exactly. Right. So yeah, I did a bachelor degree in early childhood. And a master's degree in psychology and education and a PhD in exceptionalities, which is a field within psychology and education. Learning about the wide range of children and their differences. Sometimes as it shows its schools and otherwise. So I basically went into this field collecting a lot of pieces of knowledge. That's how I felt it was not one path. And it's not a traditional path at all. I love that we were like, what else should the listener know? And she's like, I love kids, but she has a master's in a PhD, which we knew. But I love that you didn't, you didn't lead with that as that was I liked it. And so to to generally set the direction for today's episode. We have a daughter who's about to turn one. What are we calling it discipline? Yeah, I think we're going to I think we're going to largely call it discipline. I don't know that there's a better word for it. I think rules and discipline. Yeah, well, I think discipline maybe has a negative, like an angry connotation to it. But I do think that's the term we're looking for. Yeah, probably. So I think the discipline for most people, I used to ask my students, by the way, what does the word discipline mean to you? And a whole room of people would say one word punishment. That's one of our questions. What's the difference between discipline and punishment? And discipline, by the way, is not punishment at all. And certainly not where I come from in my approach and philosophy. Nothing to do with punishment or rewards. It's not this kind of like bargaining, give and take constantly conditioning. There is that somewhat related to it. People still use it a lot. I know for parents very hard to get away from it. Right. If you don't do this or here, one more cookie, but then, you know, I mean, there's a lot of that I, I don't take this approach. So let's go back the word discipline actually means structure, order, okay, punishment, okay, it doesn't translate to punishment or reward. Perfect. We need order in life because it keeps us safe. It gives us a sense of knowing and predictability or consistency, which comes us down. So discipline is the word because I love structure. And I love order because that, and that's something that I think children need. Yes. They, they, they really need in order to, to thrive and succeed. So my, my first question is, what age does discipline start? That's a good question. I would say probably a toddler hood, which is typically where we, see them as starting from 14, somewhere between 14 to 16 months old. It's like the stage of toddler hood and then it continues. It's almost as if it starts with literally one day your child, your baby wakes up, stands up and says the word no to you, to you. Good morning, no. And then you think, uh-oh, uh-oh, where did that come from? Where did you learn it? Why? What do you mean? No, that's not nice. Right there, we are starting to go down the wrong path because we misinterpret that no. We do as parents. Yes, we do as parents. And how do you misinterpret it? You think that your kid is just saying no to you, but they don't really know what they're saying. There's, they, they know when they don't, because a lot of it, by the way, language development is organic. We don't learn all of our language just from being around it. We do a lot of it. But it's almost as if it's been triggered in our brain. As if our brain is pre-programmed to language, which is a lot of times how you suddenly understand things, or know a word like, what did I hear or know what it means? A lot of it is literally just there. So the word no represents a developmental stage of the beginning of sense of self for children. And we look at it as defined, right? My child, what do you mean? No, that's not nice. And you, you know, I mean, even to a little toddler, no, we don't say no. I mean, we start with that. It's just a word. I learned something new and I'm using it and I'm just a toddler. And I maybe don't exactly know what it means, but I do have a feeling of the word. And that's another thing. Language is not just words. It's almost like feelings. It's a vibe. It's an energy. So it's their persons of self. It's their first sense of self. It's like you just said, good morning to me. That's you. But I don't want to say the same because I'm me. I'm different. And actually sweet. It's very sweet. It's actually, I would say, even important. The word no has gotten such a bad connotation now, right? Don't say no. And no, it's not nice. And I don't want to ever say no to my child. No, it's not a bad word. It's a word of boundary. It's a word of maybe pause. It's, I mean, this word means a lot of different things. Not necessarily disrespect, defiance, negativity. So back to your toddler, where does the discipline start? By misunderstanding them. And now we think they need to be disciplined. I said, no, that's not okay. No, and we use that. No, in a almost punitive intonation, even before we use it, like for any real punishment, because I don't know that we punish our toddlers. But, you know, so we miss, we miss interpret. We miss interpret. Right. One of the things that I often say, which is why, you know, I, you know, we started by my bachelor degree was in early childhood. Understanding child development allows you to not miss interpret children. And therefore your response and reaction to what they are, who they are, what they do is different. It doesn't mean you condone every behavior. And it's all, oh, this is part of their development. It just means you read it better. You have a better understanding of what it means. Guys, let's talk about Harbor baby monitor. And why it's the best baby monitor for the stressed or tired parent. Harbor simplifies monitoring with features that reduce stress instead of adding it. Smart audio filters out unnecessary noise. So you only hear what matters and you can actually sleep. And having both the dedicated beautiful 10 inch display and mobile app lets you check easily without the extra stress. It's reliable and intuitive and designed to make parenting a little bit easier. You can do remote viewing through an app and you can check it anytime you want. It's a plug and play setup. So it's perfect for travel. And you can watch up to four kids at once with custom sound thresholds for each. 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And I almost balloon this little incident that is significant, but not the way I think. So instead of, you know, making them now feel bad about the fact that they learn something new and still don't use it so well, you know, we don't reprimand them for a step standing up and falling down because they are still wobbly. Right. Everything's practiced. They don't know how to do something. So they may not use it well enough, but there's nothing wrong with it. So my discipline, which we go back to is structure, order, maybe guidance. I, because I understand, maybe I will guide them better. So instead of reprimanding, disciplining, right, not okay. That's not nice. I will go with it. Wow. Look at you. You learn the word no. No is a very good word. Sometimes we say no, right? Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I am now actually expanding my little toddler's mind by explaining to them what they just did organically, but not making them feel bad for it. But I still have some discipline in there where I say we don't always say no. So for example, right now I said, good morning, you can say good morning. And because they really did like it, maybe they'll say no, you know, like, you know, probably we can say no. Sometimes let's just say no a lot of times. No, no, no, no. And then we can say good morning or we can say up or let's go to the kitchen. I am again introducing them to a bigger form of interaction rather than I am confronting them for bad behavior. And so if so in that scenario, they're just sort of saying no. And then you're sort of playing with that word and accepting it, but not not reprimanding and punishing them for it. What if you're saying we're going to eat breakfast and they're like, nope, right? They will. Once they start saying no, they will say a lot of it. And it's very hard because, you know, how do you guide a child that basically set sort of like that kind of boundary to you in almost a defined way? So again, yes, we are, you know, no is a good word, but yes, we are going to eat breakfast. Now, here is another thing that as they get older, we're beginning to recognize they do have a voice. They have some say, right? I'm not saying that they always make the right decision. You know, they don't want to eat as if they know exactly what it means. But maybe they do because you know, you have a little one and you have seen her from the very beginning. If she doesn't want to nurse or take the bottle, she will, right, close the mouth. I mean, you can't force that. So how does she know that she is not hungry or full? She knows she was born with that. So I can say, you know, oh, wait, because no, and a toddler will say no to now all sorts of stuff. I'm putting them in the height. You know, I'm about to put a big, I mean, all right. And so they just basically overused this one word because they feel really good about it. So I will actually break it down. Yes, we are going to sit in the height or are you saying no to the height or you can climb? Maybe you can help me or here we're going to do this. Is the toddler really saying no about the food? Because a lot of times they'll say, no, no, no, and then they'll point. And so you see that they misuse the word and we look at them as novices, right? They are inexperienced. They learn something new, but don't actually know how to use it. So you work with it. I like to break it down. So like in this specific scenario of no, I don't want to eat. You know, we're going to go have breakfast. No, instead of then saying, yes, we are like because that probably doesn't, that doesn't move anybody forward, but breaking it down is a really helpful piece of advice of like, well, there's the high chair. Yes or no to that. Do you ever say that? Yes or no? To the high chair, we could do the high chair, we could do this, but we could do this. Yes. And then here are the food options because you do want to eat. So you just kind of hear the word. No, you move right past it and you say, well, break this down and give you options. Yes. But you don't get so mad about the no. You just kind of say, okay, you work with it because your child again, you see your child learning new things and it's not where you learn it or that's not okay. You're not sort of like segregating good bad. You are allowing them and expanding the mind to understand how to use something better. Not not at all all the time, never just better. So no again, starts with no is a great word. Wow, you say it so well. I can go on and on just about that because maybe your toddler just said no about, you know, even going down the stairs or they want to do it on the road or they want to drag something with them in the right. I mean, you break it down because that no is one word that right now just means whatever you say is not what I say we're not talking. So let me try and understand you better and it makes perfect sense. So you can tell me if I'm digesting this correctly, but it feels like the key to discipline in the early stages of toddlers really all comes down to communication and it's much more a communication game than it is a discipline game. Yes, an understanding that we don't necessarily communicate well yet. And exactly where I was going to go and it almost the thing that funny enough came to mind was it's almost like you're playing a game of charades with your child where they're giving you cues or clues as to what they're thinking or saying and we need to, we need to play that kind of guess and test to figure out, all right, what do they actually mean versus, you know, taking it at face value, which like intuitively sounds pretty obvious. It's like, of course, 18 or 18 month old doesn't know, doesn't know what they mean. But like, I see how you can also not recognize that. And yeah, so it really here just, you know, sounds like patients and communication. And understanding and having the knowledge because I'll give you another example that we don't actually recognize that it's exactly the same. So once again, we take the word no is defiance, but yet young children use one word usually when they learn one word and they generalize. So let's say that they learned to say tweet for the bird, right? Tweet, tweet, tweet. They'll see a duck and it's tweet, tweet. And they'll see, you know, something else, whatever, another kind, they will take one word. I mean, sometimes they even do it with mama and dad dying, right? They learn, yes, they learn this one word and they're using with a lot of different people. No, that's not mama, but they learn this one word and they kind of get that it relates. It's in the same arena sort of, but they don't have more words. So it's what we call general language. We wolf at cows, like we moo, it makes perfect sense. Yes, exactly. And of course, everything is well out, yes, yeah, of course they wouldn't know, no, means, yeah, it's just, it's actually a really, really, really good point because I think one thing I see a common theme around moms that have kids are babies age is we're all really anticipating when this discipline starts, you know, and how best to handle it and are they being defiant, you know, or are they not and they just, they really don't know. And so being able to delineate between the difference and understanding, they have such limited language. They have no idea is very calming, I think by now you guys have probably heard of built where you can earn points on your monthly rent payment. But did you know they make it possible for you to get more outside of your home too? 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So during when they turned the 14 to 16 months and they become a toddler, is there a case for punishment since we now understand the difference between discipline and punishment, discipline is the structure and organization, but is there a time when you would need to do punishment? So if you ask me and I really want to tell all parents, I understand, especially if you have other kids or you've come from, it's very hard to really not do it. And if you do it, I don't want you to feel bad. But I know for a fact, it doesn't actually work. It only creates. Punishment does not work. It doesn't work. Love it. So your children learn so quickly one to punish you back by the way. In many, many different ways, they're very smart. They learn to use the tactic against you in sort of like covert ways. So punishment is sort of like eye for an eye for an eye, like where does it end? It's like, we also use punishment a lot of times nowadays. In the wrong form because, or I should say out of context, because we are so giving, accommodating, understanding, acknowledging, loving, and then suddenly we know you can't have this. Do this or don't do it like we suddenly condition them. It's, you know, in a world that wasn't so accommodating to children, maybe you could have used it and maybe it worked for many years, but the fact that it's so much more obsolete now, it's because it didn't even work then. But the world condoned it better and sort of like held it together. Is there an age where you think punishment becomes effective? No, actually it becomes less and less and less effective. And what happens is this, you begin to really rely on object and privileges as your authority, as a parent. Suddenly, the screen, the hook, the dessert, or even a play date, or, you know, whatever it is becomes so much more important because you can give it and remove it. But what if you don't have these objects and privileges? Don't you have the authority with your child to go, "Hey, no, but I know, I can hear you, I understand, yes, I mean, they cry." And by the way, you said, "Defiance, you know, it's not defiance. Some of it is defiance. They are defying us. I don't see it as disrespect to me. I see it more as learning to understand who they are in the world and using their own strength and weaknesses or their own needs. And we have to guide them, you know, just because somebody can dribble a ball, doesn't make him a basketball player, or they can run the whole entire field. They still need guidance. They come with some sort of like innate talent, but we need to mold it." So they have some defiance in them. I just don't see it as me against them like, "Hey, don't say that to me. I go, "Oh, interesting, but yeah, no. I have the say here, this is my decision, yeah, no, we can't do this. So we are going to do that. And I don't have to use any objects." And so let's run through it. Let's roleplay this. Okay. Does that make sense? Yes. Tell me if I'm going all over the place so we can bring it back. No, it's good. I get it. Don't bargain. You have a five-year-old and the five-year-old goes into the arts and crafts drawer and draws all over the wall. How would you suggest a parent handle that? Terrible. Terrible like, "Wow." Yeah. So notice this. A lot of times it's the shock. Parents react a lot with, "What did you do?" And how? Now, it's very upsetting. I'm not saying I'm not a real human that doesn't get upset by these things. I do. But I have a little bit of a pause button to that tells me, "Okay. What is the lesson here? It's me being upset at my child, making them feel bad, guilty. I can tell you the five-year-old that did that had a very good reason. And if I don't get to that reason, I never actually really tackle the problem." So it's like, "Whoa. So not okay." I would be serious. I'd be composed. I'd be thinking. Hmm. I wonder what's going on. So I also know my child at this point five, and I kind of can tell us this revenge. Is this mischievous? Is this really being creative? Five-year-olds know. And by the way, lots of times, how can you do it? Don't you know better? It's almost like a given. It's redundant. Yes, of course. I know better. And why did you do it? I can't actually explain to you. I'm going to give you some, I don't know, and I wanted, and yeah, no. So I, again, understanding children, and what goes on behind the scene, go, "You really needed to do something that was not okay, because obviously, you know, this is not something to do. You really did need to do it." I'm actually not sure yet why. But if I think a little further, I will know. If I took something really important for my child, if I used a lot of that bargaining and conditioning, my child, like I said, they punish us back, this is the way they punished back. So I have to kind of look at myself and go, "Yeah, that was not okay, and I don't actually have to tell you." So now, let's think of how we fix this. You tell me. They have to be part of the solution, not just create a problem, but now I have to discipline them because they created or, you know, got themselves into a problem. It's like, "What do you think we can do?" "No, I bet you know." Okay, so yeah, I need some cleanup and so on, and you know what? We'll take our time. And think, "I wonder again why you needed to do it, there must have been a really good reason. It doesn't mean it's a good reason, but you must have thought it's a very good reason." And now, the next thing that I will take it to, by the way, every need starts, every even impulse or act, start with something that I came up with, some initiative. It just didn't go well. And maybe I also didn't always understand where I was coming from. Was it anger, revenge, frustration, I'm going to show, you know, sort of, let me see what I can do there. I mean, there could be a lot of things. I have to look at my child and go, "I think you have this dare need, or I think you were really angry at me and wanted to do something." So it's okay to be angry at me, by the way. It's also okay to dare. But each thing has an act that is okay, as opposed to not. So telling me, "Mom, I am very angry at you for, and I would go, I totally understand, because this act is passive aggressive act of telling me you angry." So that they were sad you were gone all day. Maybe. You took their iPad and they didn't understand that, so they acted out in some way, so you have to look at. I go into the inner layer, it's like the, you know, the curtain of the wizard and make them a part of the solution. So if we have to wipe off the wall, or if we have to paint the wall, they're doing it with you. Yes. And not just, now I'm going to come up with a list of instructions, I'm going to take it because at five, if this is not something my child does, for example, at school, ever. I don't have to give them the lecture of why it's not okay, because I guarantee you they do know. They really do. And I hear that a lot, like parents, how many times do I have to tell you? That's a rhetorical question, do you want me to give you a number? I mean, what does that even mean? Or why aren't you doing what I'm telling you? I mean, all these are basically signs of my frustration, but not guidance. Would a coach ever say that when they actually need to really coach the team? Right. Maybe they'll be frustrated, but that's not coaching. That's just me being frustrated lately. We've been reaching for the same thing for lunch and dinner multiple times a week, you guys. And that is good. Goodels taste just like the mac and cheese we know and love, but it's packed with nutrients and protein. 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It's available nationwide at Target and Walmart, plus many other grocery stores and retailers. And don't forget the new single serve cups. So you can tell me if I'm on, if I'm on track here, but it feels like it's almost just a larger parenting mindset of, you know, if you set the rules top down and try and fit all of your kids into a box, you're probably going to run into a lot of problems versus if you deal with each, if you really deal with things bottoms up and, you know, it's not like these are the rules of the house and this is how we do things. It's hey, let's look at each of our children individually. Let's look at what, you know, puts a pop in their step, what takes the wind out of their sales and let's come up with the game plan for them individually versus kind of like a blanket family way of doing things. Does that land? I just said very well. Yes, it's not one size fits all you have to consider personality gender sometimes placed in the family, yes, developmental stage. It's not, yes, this is how I parent and all my kids, I'm going to fall into that or not ducks. And so it's developing your parenting style around each kid and their personality versus developing your parenting style based off of a bunch of principles that you may believe in or read in a book. Right. How mainstream do we think that approaches? It's probably hard for people to hear because I can, I've heard so many parents immediately but what do you mean, there are no rules, but what if I disagree? What about morals? What about? There's rules. Yes. The way I understand it, there's rules and there's structure, but the way you message it or handle it with each child is going to be different. Yes, we then think there is a structure which keeps us again safe within it that parameter can have a place for individualities. And so this is one of those things that it feels like in theory makes a lot of sense. But in reality, I think a lot of people would push back on it. So how did this work in your household growing up? Raising kids. Raising kids. Raising kids. Yeah. I have three children that have very different personalities from one another. And for example, I just talked about that, like sibling rivalry and you know, their boys add each other constantly, you know, it's very physical, it's loud, it's things are banging and so on and so forth. I had to learn my children's personalities to also be able to guide them to know what it is they are doing within that, meaning that I know one child is a little more introvert, needs a lot of time on their own. The other one is much more of I'm here, you know, sort of like personality that stands out in a room and so on. So they need more room to just be noticed. And when I saw that recognizing, I could guide them like, so notice that you need more of that and you need more of that. This is where you guys clash, it's not just stop fighting and enough. And like, do you guys think you can work with that? Because for example, if you know your brother needs a lot more of a long time, but you really crave his company, do you have the language to talk to him? Is this gentle parenting? Not at all, by the way, not at all. And I will say why, yes please, yeah, it's clear parenting, well, love that. Yes. I really like gentle parenting at this point has become, because I think it's misused. Gentle parenting started as I want to be respectful and kind to my child. But that we have taken that to never say no to children and constantly explaining everything to them as if they truly do know constantly how to make the right decision. And I don't have any parental authority because my child has to agree with me in order to do the right thing. And clear parenting is my child actually doesn't have to agree with me in order to sometimes do the right thing because I truly do know the right thing. I'm not saying 100% of the time, but I do know because I am older, I have more experience. I have been there, done that, whatever that is. So can we get an example of clear parenting versus gentle parenting? So gentle parenting is really asking my child to agree, it's kind of like, so here's what we're going to do. Don't do that. Okay. You know, we're going to go take a bath, okay? Can you please go wash your hands? No. Please, can you please go wash your hands, like, hey, it's washing hands, right now you need to wash. No, you need to wash your hands with it and yes, you can do it really. I'm still kind and very respectful and I'm actually a very patient person, but I do know my authority and I use that authority to keep my child in line and to help them once again work within a parameter that is the structure, not because I have power. I have authority, it's not the same thing and my authority is based on again, simple experience. I'm not the CEO because I just showed up to work this morning and suddenly I can tell people what to do. I've earned it. 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Go to quince.com/allix for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/allix to get free shipping in 365 day returns. Quince.com/allix. Okay, so my last question is, I have two last questions. I think I know the answer to the first one, which is, if you're not, if you don't think punishing works, you don't think spanking works. No. Not at all. Not at all. Obviously. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think that most people do agree with that at this point. Most do, but I did take a poll. I have a mom's group on my Instagram and there are still some that I see that do spanking, so it was something we were really curious about learning about. We've really done all of our research now and I totally agree with you. But it was one of our questions, but when you said punishment doesn't work, I thought it answered itself. Yes. So spanking doesn't, you know, even, I mean, physical punishment doesn't work and all the other types of, you know, the naughty chair or the timeout. I can say there is, you know, a time and a place for everything. We do need to come down right now or actually, you do need to spend some time in your room. I call it time in, not time out. Oh, time in. I like that. As they get, you know, older and it's perfectly okay because I see it also as a skill and a tool, no one to walk away. Right? Yeah. So you're not being pun, like sometimes you just can't take whatever the situation and somebody kicks you out. That's not functional. That's not being responsible. But knowing that you can't take whatever it is and walk away, like I need some time. You know, and kids will say stuff like you go, go away and you're like, oh, you mean that you don't want to be with me right now. Oh, yes, sweetie. You actually go away because you can't order me, but you can tell yourself that you need time away from me and there's another room. You go away. I stay, okay? Yes. Or they tell you to get out of the room like you walked in that, no, you know, you know, turn this into good morning, no, you know, you know, you leave a lot of things. Yeah. Toddlers do that as well. Yeah, no, you can't say that to me. You can, you don't have to say good morning to me. But you can't tell me to leave your room, yeah, no, see, that's my authority. That's my parental jurisdiction that you have, okay, and that's clear parenting. Do you have a last question? Yeah. So let me try and summarize today's conversation, okay, and what we've learned is when it comes to discipline that can really start around the 14 to 16 month mark when your toddler begins to, to clue in and become an individual, become an individual. And your view on the most successful way to discipline is develop a deep understanding of your child and what makes them tick both in a positive and a negative way and adapt your parenting style around them accordingly. And to parent with clear communication and understanding as opposed to through parenting with fear and punishment, but still while holding your line on what is right and what is wrong. Also, I think and I think come from a place of earned authority because you are the parent yes. And don't take the things that they say so literally understand that they have a minimal understanding of language. So no can mean not the stare for, of course, the meal, which is more relevant to the early stages versus the older stages. It's so helpful. I really see it more fluid instead of hard and fast rules and lines and this, not that. And it's the right thing to do not because I said so and that will make them good little humans too. Right. So in theory, having a strict 9 p.m. bedtime for every kid in your household might not work very well, probably won't make a lot of sense. Right. Because what if you have a 15 year old, even if you have a 15 year old and a 14 year old and a 16 year old setting like firm, like knowing that average child in your house has a 9 p.m. bedtime when they turn 14 may inherently be ridiculous because certain children may, like, child A may just be different than child B and adjust accordingly. Yes. But here's the thing. Where is the structure that stays grounded and consistent? No matter what, tomorrow morning you're still going to have to get up and go to school. Totally. So if you are tired, there's no, yeah. So maybe you're going to have to adjust your bedtime accordingly because you see, that's the thing. But I'm tired. Yeah. But you still have to go to school. Oh, I'm not tired. I don't want to go to bed. You know, maybe I can be a little bit more fluid with that. You're still going to have to wake up in the morning and there's no way around that. That's functionality within, you know, and that's the parameter or the structure that I don't, it's, you know, kind of like they've heard from. And I was going to say maybe that the other tool, you know, that know that they first say to assert themselves, to show individuality. The parenting that we suddenly switch from, and you will see that is doing everything to your child, you pick them up, you put them down. You do a lot to them because you have to, suddenly you have to do with, or you also change, you do everything for your child again, we're doing, I am doing this with you. So what is this with? With doesn't mean my child has to agree to every decision I make as a parent. I'm not selling them a card, they don't have to actually buy my parenting all the time. I can still explain and tell them, no matter what, this is what we're doing, whether you agree or not, I respect how you feel about it, but you don't have to agree with me. You're the child, you can be defined. We still have to do what we have to do because defiance is more of an emotion before it starts to be really like, you know, it's a tactic that children can use against us. It makes a lot of sense, I think that you've given us so many helpful tips and you've just introduced us to a way of how we can think about it and I really appreciate that and I learned a lot. Yes, thank you so much for your time, Dr. Stiggy, where can people find you on Instagram? Right, so social media, obviously, probably our biggest platform is Instagram where it's free, daily, tools, tips and interaction with our audience or followers. A lot of material on the website, so anywhere from free toolboxes that you can use and download to four courses right now that you can purchase, each course is like a whole, almost book by itself. For, you know, different topics, so two courses are broken by ages, what ages it starts. So the toddler course, everything toddler is from, you know, the beginning of toddler hood, I would say till one, three ish and then we have the three to seven, everything course and then we have a whole course just on anxiety for all ages and one whole course on sibling hood for all ages. So it's never too late. Yeah, you can start early, you can, you know, go back to eight later. So that's mainly, and we have, you can sign up to a newsletter where we also keep you informed on a regular basis and what's the website name, Dr. Stiggy.com. Dr. Stiggy.com. And are you at Donward? So it's www.Dr.Stiggy.com. Okay, okay, I mean, I think that's going to be so helpful for people. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, and thank you guys for listening. Thanks for listening to another episode of Two Parents and a Podcast powered by Just Media House. If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to like, subscribe, comment, rate, and review. Stay connected on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and Facebook at Two Parents and a Pod. Welcome to our home. Sorry, it's so messy. New episodes, Mondays and Thursdays.